****************Now with Fucking-“a”!!!!!*****************
Resilient Iraqis ask what civil war?
DESPITE sectarian slaughter, ethnic cleansing and suicide bombs, an opinion poll conducted on the eve of the fourth anniversary of the US-led invasion of Iraq has found a striking resilience and optimism among the inhabitants.
The poll, the biggest since coalition troops entered Iraq on March 20, 2003, shows that by a majority of two to one, Iraqis prefer the current leadership to Saddam Hussein’s regime, regardless of the security crisis and a lack of public services.
4 Years After Start of War, Anger Reigns
Thousands of demonstrators protesting the fourth anniversary of the war in Iraq marched on the Pentagon yesterday, jeered along the way by large numbers of angry counter-protesters.
Organizers billed the antiwar rally as marking the 40th anniversary of the 1967 march on the Pentagon. At times, verbal clashes during the cold and blustery day demonstrated that the bitter divisions of four decades ago sparked by Vietnam are very much alive in the debate over Iraq.
I wish to point out this brave article from a real leftist, at marxist.org.uk:
Nine Red Herrings: How the Western ‘Left’ has Misread Iraq
It sticks in the throat to have to admit that for once the western powers have done more to promote justice than the western “left†has. It is nauseating to find “Marxists†trying to ensure that any human beings should go on living under a dictatorship. Such are the contradictions of advanced capitalism.
So much for the festival of fools and liars that erupted in the West in March and April 2003, and that presented such a pathetic spectacle compared to the magnificent festival of the formerly oppressed in the cities of Iraq, where thousands engaged in freelance redistribution and creative recycling, only to be denounced by the fools and liars as “lootersâ€Â, and vilified by being wrongly equated with the much smaller numbers of opportunistic thieves who stole hospital supplies or ancient artefacts. What, by the way, does it say about the western “left†that some of them got much more indignant about the alleged disappearance of Mesopotamian treasures from museums in the course of a few days than they ever did about the actual disappearance of thousands of Iraqis from their homes between 1968 and 2003?
I share his indignation, because, like Jeff, I would like to be able to be–not a Marxist–but a Classical Liberal.
A POLL!
Good God, what will that whorshiper of polls aflie say?
Yeah, it’s a landslide. But that happens in quagmires.
In the serendipity that charms the internet, I started reading the marxist-org-uk.blogspot.com blog and discovered the American Budda Online Library, http://www.american-buddha.com.
Unfortunately, Professor Kors ABOL website requires registration to learn any more and I’m shy. Oh well, maybe you can go there for me?
A couple of interesting posts at Iraq the Model:
One thing al-Qaeda excels at; making new enemies.
Is Iran’s honeymoon in Iraq over?
I’d say that if almost half of all Iraqis think our occupation is better than Saddam’s rule, we must be doing something right!
However, this question from the survey seems to be problematic for the endless war crowd:
Some 53% of Iraqis nationwide agree that the security situation will improve in the weeks after a withdrawal by international forces, while only 26% think it will get worse.
Hardly an endorsement of continued occupation.
And yet, they seem to be enjoying the increased presence.
Crazy, ain’t it?
Nice shift from survey data to anecdotal data there.
Looks to me like a solid majority of Iraqis would like us to end our occupation of their country.
53% is solid when it’s against the U.S. staying in Iraq.
How solid was 53% when it was Bush’s re-election margin?
That would be nice if we were occupying Iraq. But we’re not. We’re there at the pleasure of the government the Iraqis elected.
What the majority would really like is for their own forces to get their shit together, which seems to be happening, slowly but surely.
Damn pesky facts.
Did you understand the context? Did you read the survey questions? Did you understand that the survey questions had to do with the surge and the survey was trying to capture trends in thought concerning the surge? Did you misunderstand the survey question and think the respondents were being asked whether the US should leave? Don’t you agree that you should ask someone to explain difficult articles?
Thinking that the government of Iraq is somehow independent of the Bush administration is a nice mental fig leaf, but resistance to our occupation comes from the people of Iraq, not the guys holed up in the Green Zone (and London).
When 53% of a populace thinks you should go home, you’ve got a real problem.
Well alfie, at least you can now stop complaining that there is a civil war in Iraq. It has been proven conclusively (in alfie thinking) that there isn’t.
Is that what the poll says, alpo?
Hint: No.
As for that other pile of poo, an alliance is not an occupation, and no nation is independent of all others. Drop the goalposts and back away.
Why do you persist in the fantasy of thinking that was the survey question?
BTW, I must compliment your imagination when you can take a positive statement that when the outside forces leave things will only get better and turn it into a demand that they leave now.
How you get from one to the other is completely beyond me.
Imagination is thinking the surge is a success, TomB.
Yesterday alone, 8 U.S. troops died in Iraq and the bad guys launched 3 coordinated chemical weapons attacks.
I love the smell of chlorine gas in the morning, it smells like…victory!
Right on schedule, alfie tries to change the subject.
I’m sure you use “bad” ironically here, seeing as how you are dancing on the graves of 8 dead soldiers.
I’ve always suspected you wanted us to lose. Your quote removes every last iota of doubt from my mind.
You are trash.
What makes you think that the survey indicates 53% of the population approves of coordinated chemical attacks?
I don’t want us to lose, TomB.
I want us to pull our troops out of Iraq.
Not the same thing.
Thank you for posting that last article/link.
Truly fascinating to read a clear-thinking leftist dissect the intellectual dishonesty of the left, while remaining true to his (unfortunately) Marxist ideals.
It is proof that liberals could, if they chose to, see this unmistakable realities. Instead, they’d all to often prefer unthinking reflexive opposition to all thinks American, capitalist, conservative, and/or Bush.
It will always be a great stain on the left’s soul that they have never – ever – really denounced Hussein (well, or Castro, or Chavez … etc) and they’ve never really supported his removal or prosecution.
It was truly a pleasure to read a liberal actually holding true to what liberals claim to believe. Thanks.
You just don’t want us to win. And to accentuate your point, you point gleefully at US deaths.
Nuance
Interesting to see alpo’s still got his woody for the jihadis’ war crimes.
He doesn’t want to lose Tom, he is just on the other side.
Giving up is losing. Why do you want us to lose?
Because he cares about the troops.
Remember that the next time the dems try to “reinvent government” by gutting military spending.
They love the troops, but its a tough love…
I’d just like to point that Alphie is accusing someone else of changing the terms of the debate.
Please resume the thread when laughing stops.
Perhaps Jeff could comment on the attempt to equate “Pulling Out” with “Losing” by the pro-war speech police?
I love the smell of chlorine gas in the morning, it smells like…victory!
Fuck you, asshole. If you and the jihadis win, someone has to lose.
Alphie,
Umm… exactly in what way, shape, or form – and for the record, on what planet – is leaving a contested field of battle (i.e. “Pulling Out”) not exactly identical for all intents and purposes from being driven from a contested field of battle (i.e. “Losing”)?
Alphie, you’ve missed the point of leaving with astonishing perseverance.
We will leave, but not until the job is done.
This is not the same thing as staying for ever.
It’s not the same thing as staying for 20 years.
It’s not the same thing as leaving according to a timetable.
It’s not the same as surrendering.
It’s not the same thing as leaving the Iraqis to the tender mercies of those who already get their rocks off by decapitating civilians and blowing up kids.
It’s not the same thing as occupation.
It’s not any of these things.
If Iraq becomes quiet and peaceful, such that the Iraqi military and police can stand up fully within three months, then three months and one day later we start figuring out how we want to draw down our forces.
Leaving before the country is stabilized is exactly identical to a loss condition for the US.
You seem intent on leaving Iraq before it’s stable and on the terms of those who are most eager for the US to lose. In what way, shape, or form, is that not rooting for the US to lose?
BRD
alphie, in war “giving up” is the DEFINITION of “losing”.
You should seriously consider retiring temporarily, at least until you can get your Talking Points™ database updated. The same ones keep popping up, and the context detector needs serious work, because you’re not only repetitive, you’ve started contradicting yourself within a few posts. Go away, get organized, and come back with renewed enthusiasm.
Regards,
Ric
Yeah but Ric,
In little “a” world, 2 contradictions make a right & not a reversal of direction. Besides, the conveniences of not having a ”world view” is that you get to change view points from thread to thread or comment to comment w/o being burdened by consistency.
Alphie,
Did Germany “lose” World War I? Did the United States “lose” Vietnam? Did Great Britain “lose” the American Revolution? Did the Confederacy “lose” the Civil War?
BRD
PS – @All, what are some other classic examples that come to mind?
I’ve really enjoyed seeing that question phrased as “What would you be doing differently if you DID want the US to lose?”
Pulling out of Iraq doesn’t seem like losing to me.
I think of it more as a sports team hopping on the bus after the game is over.
Accusing me of being a heretic is an interesting strategy to enforce your speech codes, though.
So we won the war?
Alphie,
Rather, what you are doing is suggesting that the football team hop on the bus sometime during the third quarter. The game ain’t over yet. As you may have gathered from your close study of current events, there’s still fighting going on.
BRD
None one is calling you a heretic, alphietross. We’re calling you a liar and an idiot, and pointing out that you’re rooting for the other side.
On the bright side, the troops you pretend to be so concerned about don’t give a damn what you think. And the game isn’t over yet. Abdicating the field is forfeit, which is losing.
I think the “game” was over when the people of Iraq chose to elect religious leader instead of secular ones, BRD.
Our current strategy of slowly trying to elimate those religious leaders is a loser and everyone knows it.
Just ask Israel, they’ve been at it for almost 60 years now.
Of course it doesn’t—it’s what you want. Getting what you want would never seem like losing to you.
FOAD.
Pulling out of Iraq doesn’t seem like losing to me.
Why isn’t this suprising
I think of it more as a sports team hopping on the bus after the game is over.
And you wonder why people,not just us, think you’re mentally defficient. Last time Alph. It isn’t a game.
Accusing me of being a heretic is an interesting strategy to enforce your speech codes, though.
Posted by alph
You’re not a heretic Alph. You’re willfully missinformed. Hence the ‘stupid’ appalation
So, now you want Israel to pull out of the Middle East? Where should they go? Germany?
Your current strategy of being a prevaricating fool is a loser, and everyone knows it. Except you, apparently.
But then, Saddam thought he was winning too. Look where that got him.
If we have a “current strategy”, how the hell can the “game” be over?
For God’s sake, at least try to think.
alphie, do you know what “anecdotal” means?
Pollsters have really pulled the wool over a lot of eyes, looks like.
Are you unaware that after a sport’s game, one or the other team usually wins? Or di you think this is regular season, a tie is acceptable, because we’ll go back and play them again?
aren’t you saying that you equate winning in this forum with the jihadists winning and the US losing? Don’t you think that you’d be more comfortable commenting in a blog run by Al Qaeda if such a blog exists?
Pulling out of Iraq doesn’t seem like losing to Alphie any more than pulling out of Vietnam looked like losing to any of his possible daddies.
All the corpses after that? Hey at least he doesn’t have to look at them. And I’m sure a few years after the new mass graves have been filled our fine progressives will give a token Oscar to some Arab Haing Ngor for the new version of The Killing Fields and feel they’ve made up for their butchery…
You have to look at it from little “a’s” perspective, at least we’d no longer be bearing the costs!!! Think of the savings!!!
Alphie,
Religious leaders? That’s all ya got?
Religious leaders…
I’m going to cue you in to one of the Great Big Strategic Secrets of ALL TIME!
Religious folks in Iraq who are intent on shooting at Americans or installing something aggressively non-secular government in Iraq – those are the BAD kind of religious leaders.
However, the astute observer will note the loophole – not all religious leaders are intent on shooting at Americans or installing something aggressively non-secular government in Iraq.
Any of this getting through to you?
BRD
Nothing gets through the Neutronium Skull of Doom!
I am actually given understand that DARPA is looking into implanting Special Forces soldiers with the Neutronium Skull of Doom so they can do away with helmets.
Although, from what I gather, they’ve only had success with the Very “Special” Forces. You know, the ones that fly in the special short C-130.
aggressively non-secular government in Iraq
BRD,
We’ve already installed an “aggresively non-secular” government in Iraq (and Afghanistan).
Sharia law is the law of the land in both of our colonies.
Oh, that is a problem!
Being anti-Islam and pro-war at the same time when our wars are propping up Islamic governments.
How to resolve this?
Alphie,
I don’t think that this word “sharia” means what you think it means.
In keeping with the basic cultural milieu of Islam is not the same thing as “aggressively non-secular”. See, that’s why there’s a modifier there: ‘aggressively’.
BRD
The liberal refrain in 5 concise words. Nicely done, alphie.
Did the Afghans ever stone to death that guy who converted to Christianity, BRD?
Or did Condi manage to spread enough bribe money around so they’d let him sneak out of the country without his children?
“Did the Afghans ever stone to death that guy who converted to Christianity, BRD?”
I don’t know, why don’t you find out?
The other questions that I suppose might be relevant – and I don’t recall the facts of the case right now – are:
1) Is that outcome in keeping with the broader concepts of Afghani jurisprudence and law?
1) What was the legal basis for the whole deal? Was this judicial, enshrined in law, were there any appeal mechanisms?
3) Is the legal instrument still in place? Is there any means for Afghans to change it?
4) Or is one death threat sufficient to make you a cheerleader for a Pashtun dub of the Killing Fields?
BRD
No, that guy was granted asylum in Italy.
I can’t believe I missed this little Alphie-ism:
“both of our colonies”
Where, precisely, are you going with that little gem of wisdom?
If they are colonies, then why would we withdraw?
If they are colonies, then why, according to you, do they have ‘sharia’ law? As ‘colonies’ shouldn’t we be able to enforce the legal system of our choosing?
For that matter, if NATO is deployed throughout Afghanistan, would that make Afghanistan a NATO colony?
And if that’s the case, wouldn’t Bosnia and much of Yugoslavia be a NATO colony?
Would that mean that the presence of US troops in Japan, Germany, and Britain make them our colonies?
And in the case of Britain, why would one of our colonies have a separate nuclear deterrent?
Inquiring minds do want to know.
How much bribe money is it going to take to get them to play diplomacy with Obama if he gets elected alphie?
(Let’s see how fast we can get him spinning if we play too)
If we don’t eliminate Islam once and for all, the terrorists have won?
Is that what you’re saying, alpo?
Let’s not forget Kuwait, Qatar, UAE, Egypt, South Korea and Japan.
BECAUSE OF THE COLONIALISM!
You forgot Cuba.
How about Fort Collins? Fort Dearborn?
Wait…
If objection to polygamy (be it Islamic or Mormon) is because of it’s deviation from traditional Christian norms, then would that mean that we live under a theocratic state?
Even worse, one with military installations littered around the country, that would make us a colony too?
A colony where people are getting shot every day, and police still run the risk of death?
QUAGMIRE!!!!
USA OUT OF USA!!!
NO BLOOD FOR, LIKE, STUFF!!!
alphie – read just a bit before you write of Afghan law. You look ignorant, and deliberatly so. Have you read the Afghan Constitution? No? But you are more than willing to calim it is “sharia” law. I need naproxin after contemplating that one…
BTW – the Afghan high court nullified the goofy lower court call on the “conversion” case. Sounds like “sharia” to you?
“Aggressively non-secular Government in Iraq.”
Like Saddam. Who insisted that he was descended from Mohammad, and put “God is Great” on the Iraqi flag. That’s what the Arabic means, you know.
Tell me, alphie, when you and your heroes were throwing live babies in a ditch and smothering them with the bodies of their parents, were you on baby-tossing duty or slitting throats?
Regards,
Ric
Maj. John,
I have no doubt we can get Iraqi and Afghan officials to do whatever we want them to for a sufficiently large gratuity.
Is Abdul Rahman still living in Afghanistan?
Ric,
I think you drove the reality bus over the cliff with that last post. It’s not 2003 anymore, how about a real argument?
So – your answer is that we bribed the Afghan High Court. Really? I suppose you have some sort of evidence of this? You still haven’t answered if you have read any Afghan law at all – I will take your skittering off on a tangent as “why, no, I haven’t. I never bother to read a primary source before I make an astonishing accusation against it. Besides, I will simply aver that the US bribes people to do whatever we want if I am cornered on my ignorance of something. And no, I won’t have any evidence for this nice little piece of circular logic….why do you ask?”
Oh, and alphie – if some pissant Afghan district court is able to stand up and proclaim “sharia law” despite our ability to bribe anyone in our colony – how is it that we can simply flex a checkbook and their High Court hops to?
Do you think of these things before you type?
How about you play cheerleader for warcrimes some more, I like seeing the real alphie come out. Would you balk at live burials, then? You prefer gassing them first? What a humanitarian.
Well, having gotten my daily ration of head-shaking-in-wonder, I will return to my Operation TORCH essay exam for ILE-CC. Maybe if I just write – Quagmire!! More troops!!! Withdraw!!!! Eisenhower was a sell out to Colonial Rule by the British!!111! IT WUZ THE ROTHSCHILDS BACKING THE KNIGHTZ TEMPLAR. FNORD!!!!!!!!! I wonder how I would do?
B Moe,
If you’d seen the movie, you’d know Colonel Bill Kilgore was on our side.
I wasn’t cheering on the bad guys, just pointing out there is nothing the pro-war side would take as a sign that maybe we’re doing more harm than good in Iraq these days.
Not even the fact that al Qaeda is now manufacturing WMD in Iraq.
Irony indeed considering our stated goal going in.
Alphie, I think you should go home.
Well, now we know. alphie thinks it’s a Marxist.
It isn’t, of course. For all his faults, Marx was a liberal in the obsolete sense; he encouraged individuals to join together against oppression, and got pretty hot about it, but he was inalterably opposed to any form of tyranny.
But alphie’s pseudo-Marxism, by way of Stalinist propaganda, has DECREED the REVEALED TRVTH: the purpose of the United States in Iraq is not just imperialist, it’s colonialist. Somewhere in the United States are dozens, hundreds, of frustrated people waiting impatiently for things to settle down so that they can go take up their Grants in al Anbar province, there to shove the Iraqis into reservations, make English the official language and Southern Baptist the Established Church, and petition for statehood.
Therefore the crimes of the Ba’ath are not just forgiven—they were right and proper practice for what they would need to do to Resist the Imperal Invaders©. Mass murder, torture, environmental devastation: all to be not just forgiven, not just forgotten, but written into history as Prelude to Heroism.
It’s All About Oil. NO OTHER EXPLANATION MAY BE SUGGESTED—ALPHIE HAS SPOKEN: THIEVERY, PILLAGE, AND DISPLACEMENT OF THE PITIFUL INDIGINES WAS THE PURPOSE FROM THE BEGINNING, IS NOW, AND FOREVER WILL BE, REGARDLESS OF BEHAVIOR, EXCUSES, EXPLANATIONS, OR ANYTHING RESEMBLING ACTUAL EVIDENCE, WHICH IF IT EXISTS IS ENTIRELY MANUFACTURED.
Right, alph? Summarized it pretty well?
Regards,
Ric
What would you and the rest of the pro-AlQ side take as a sign that the US is doing more good than harm in Iraq these days? I mean other than giving up and losing?
That’s an odd claim, considering the way you shudder and grunt every time the jihadis descend into another level of barbarity.
Wow, alphie’s Grima Wormtongue portrayal puts Brad Dourif’s to shame.
I bet if we took a survey of the “natives”, here, the sentiment would be overwhelmingly in favor of alphie going home. So, QUAGMIRE!
By the way, jackass, perhaps you could enlighten us with how you arrived at the conclusion that Jeff would be inclined to also torture meaning just to bail you out of the cesspool you dived into? Knowing Jeff, he probably was more inclined to critique your natatorial skill.
“I wasn’t cheering on the bad guys, just pointing out there is nothing the pro-war side would take as a sign that maybe we’re doing more harm than good in Iraq these days.
Not even the fact that al Qaeda is now manufacturing WMD in Iraq.”
Wow. Two lies in one post. First, he glorifies chemical weapons attacks. then he claims that he was making a casual observation. Then he claims that these attacks are the fault of the US. We didn’t make it. We didn’t use it. But, once again, the crimes committed by a terrorist group are visited upon us.
Once again Alphie; why don’t you pay a visit to the Kurds and claim there that there would be no chemical weapons attacks if the US left. In fact, chemical weapons never existed there at the great kite fly-in until the eeevil Jews sent the US troops in. They (the Kurds) might disagree with you. But what do they know? They just live there.
Interested? I really want you to go.
Who else wants to ship Alphie to Kurdistan so that he can spread his good word? I claim the pay-per-view rights, but I’m willing to split them.
The Action Chimpâ„¢ has his own peculiar agenda.
Remember this is the big thinker who, in all of his incarnations (monkeyboy/Neville Chamberlain):
*thought that 9/11 was no big deal
*equated military service with a form of welfare
*pointed out that one week of Iraq spending could have saved 1000 African kids from intestinal diseases
*didn’t think the Afghani mission was justified because “the Taliban didn’t attack America…”
*thought we spend more money in “constant dollars” on the GWOT than we spent to “fight and win WWII.”
*proclaims at every opportunity that the insurgents/terrorists are “operating on 1/1000th of the budget that the Amertican military is operating on(sic).”
*remarked back on 1/03/07, “I don’t think the motives behind continuing our occupation of Iraq are anywhere near as crude as colonization, DRJ.” Feel free to compare and contrast this statement with the “colonies” crack above.
*compared the administrations desire to win in Iraq to a “stalker.”
*doesn’t think we “brought democracy to Iraq and Afghanistan.”
For the Action Chimpâ„¢ it’s all about wasted money and non Americans who are dying. Everything else is a big, ape sized shoulder shrug.
And, yes alphie/monkeyboy/Neville: I have the links. Don’t further embarrass yourself. Now throw another shovelful of dirt onto your Mile High Dirt Bermâ„¢ and munch on some peanut brittle.
Weapons of Mass Discontent? They don’t seem to be very effective at killing people. That might explain why police all over the world use a similar substance for crowd control, though with much mpore effective delivery systems.