Karr confesses. From this morning’s Rocky Mountain News / AP:
A former American school teacher said publicly Thursday he was with JonBenet Ramsey when she was killed and called the 6-year-old’s death “an accident,” a stunning admission that should help answer 10 years of questions in the unsolved murder case.
John Mark Karr, 41, will be taken within the week to Colorado, where he will face charges of first degree murder, kidnapping and child sexual assault, Ann Hurst of the Department of Homeland Security told a news conference in Bangkok.
“I was with JonBenet when she died,” John Mark Karr told reporters afterward, visibly nervous and stuttering as he spoke. “Her death was an accident.”
Asked if he was innocent of the crime, Karr said: “No.”
Karr confessed to the killing after his arrest Wednesday at his downtown Bangkok apartment by Thai and American authorities, said Lt. Gen. Suwat Tumrongsiskul, head of Thailand’s immigration police.
He said Karr insisted his crime was not first-degree murder but that she died during a kidnapping attempt that went awry.
“He said it was second-degree murder. He said it was unintentional. He said he was in love with the child, she was a pageant queen,” Suwat said.
[…]
JonBenet was found beaten and strangled in the basement of the family’s home in Boulder, Colo., on Dec. 26, 1996.
Beaten and strangled. Yeah. Sounds like a kidnapping attempt that “went awry” to me…
Wednesday’s arrest was a surprise development in one of America’s most lurid murder cases, which had left a cloud of suspicion over her family after years went by with no arrests. Some feared the case would never be solved.
Striking video images of the blonde-haired girl in child beauty pageants helped propel the case into one of the highest-profile mysteries in the United States.
A law enforcement source, speaking on condition of anonymity, told the AP that Karr had been communicating periodically with somebody in Boulder who had been following the case and cooperating with law enforcement officials.
A University of Colorado spokesman, Barrie Hartman, said journalism professor Michael Tracey communicated with Karr over several months and contacted police. The university spokesman said he didn’t know what prompted Tracey to become suspicious of Karr.
Tracey produced a documentary in 2004 called “Who Killed JonBenet?” A woman who answered the phone at a number under his name said he didn’t live there anymore; his office phone mailbox was full.
The Ramseys learned that police were investigating Karr at least a month before the June death of JonBenet’s mother, Patsy Ramsey, of ovarian cancer, the family said.
In a statement Wednesday, father John Ramsey said that if his wife had lived to see Karr’s arrest, she “would no doubt have been as pleased as I am with today’s development almost 10 years after our daughter’s murder.”
Suwat quoted Karr as saying he tried to kidnap JonBenet for a $118,000 ransom but that his plan went awry and he strangled her. Patsy Ramsey reported finding a ransom note in the house demanding $118,000 for her daughter.
Investigators said at one point that JonBenet’s parents were under an “umbrella of suspicion” in the slaying, and some news accounts cast suspicion on JonBenet’s older brother, Burke. But the Ramseys insisted an intruder killed their daughter, and no one was ever charged.
Over the years, some experts suggested that investigators had botched the case so thoroughly that it might never be solved. The Ramseys moved back to Atlanta after their daughter’s slaying.
“It’s been a very long 10 years, and I’m just sorry Patsy isn’t here for me to hug her neck,” said Lin Wood, the family’s longtime attorney.
“John and Patsy lived their lives knowing they were innocent, trying to raise a son despite the furor around them,” Wood told MSNBC.
Suwat said U.S. authorities informed Thai police on Aug. 11 that an arrest warrant had been issued for Karr on charges of premeditated murder. The warrant was sent to Thai police on Wednesday.
“Through investigation we were able to determine where his residence was and the Thais arrested him,” Hurst said. “He did not resist. He did express surprise.”
Hurst said Karr has been “very cooperative” with authorities and that he’s shown a “variety of emotions.”
Suwat said Karr arrived in Bangkok on June 6 from Malaysia to look for a teaching job. It was not clear whether he had gotten a job, the police officer said.
Karr’s visa has been revoked as an “undesirable person” given the accusations against him, and U.S. authorities were expected to take him to the United States in the next few days, Suwat said.
Hurst, with the department’s U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement in Bangkok, said that Karr had left the United States several years ago and had not returned.
[…]
When asked how he could travel for so many years in Asia, and whether he was independently wealthy, Hurst responded, “We’re asking the same questions.”
Police said Karr had been living in a dormitory-style hotel called The Blooms in a neighborhood of massage parlors and travel agents that cater to expatriate residents and sex tourists. The nine-story hotel offers rooms for as short as three-hour rentals.
The district attorney in Boulder, Mary Lacy, said the arrest followed several months of work.
She said Karr, who had traveled extensively across the world, may also be connected to a prior case in Santa Rosa County, Calif. She did not provide further details.
Sonoma County Chief Deputy District Attorney Joan Risse confirmed the child pornography charges and arrest warrant against a John Mark Karr, though she cautioned that she didn’t know if he was the same person held Bangkok. State records show Karr lost his teaching credential in 2002.
This seems to answer the question about his confessing to get out of a Thai jail—as the article suggests he was cooperative and tried to mitigate his crime with an explanation.
Shortly after JonBenet’s death, I remember seeing an interview with the Ramseys—after which a host of “experts” reading “body language” pounced on Patsy Ramsey and declared her almost certainly guilty.
I was appalled then and am even moreso now—though I admit I am curious to find out what Karr’s connection was to the family. We know he lived near the Ramsey’s in Georgia, but JonBenet was a baby at the time, so I wonder if the subsequent connection has anything to do with real estate or renovations, coupled with a previous familiarity with the family.
Idle speculation, though.
Anyway, should the case against Karr turn out to be as solid as it appears at first blush (that is, if Karr is mentally stable and the confession is not simply an attempt on his part for notoriety—he had, after all, done a lot of “research” on both the Ramsey and Klaas cases, so it’s possible he stumbled across the information that police say they hadn’t released), I think a lot of media folk need to very publicly apologize to the Ramsey family.
Not that it will undo the harm done to the family. But at least the “umbrella of suspicion” will be removed, finally, and the family name cleared.
Also, kudos to the many in the Boulder police department—long depicted as inept—for sticking with the case and recognizing that the family wasn’t involved, though public pressure to lynch one of the Ramseys remained intense for years.
Because trust me, there are certain DAs (*coughcough Duke coughcough*) who would have brought a case against Patsy just to further political ambitions.
****
update: Please note that I am aware there is plenty of reason for skepticism, and that I, too, have my doubts. However, I also think it unlikely that the Boulder DA’s office would have worked with the State Dept. and a foreign government on extradition on a ten-year old case that, though not forgotten, was long out of the media spotlight, unless they believed they have a case—or at least something solid tying Karr to the scene, or putting him in the vicinity of the crime.
I could be wrong, of course. But his confession came after his arrest—meaning they suspected him before he confessed. Some of his statements since don’t jibe with the facts as we know them, true. But let’s not leave out the possibility that, rather than being exculpatory, this conflict of data might actually prove that Karr was indeed involved.
Sadly, the umbrella of suspicion will only stay closed until someone registers JonBenetTruthOut.org.
There are things that can never be fixed, can never be given back.
They’ve got DNA from the scene, IIRC. If he did it, the case will be rock solid. And while the Ramseys have had a horrible road to walk under undeserved suspicion, hopefully this has warned a lot of parents away from the reprehensible, borderline pedophilic freak shows that are kiddie beauty pageants.
Whatever happens, it’s an awful mess all the way around. Does CO have capital punishment?
Something stinks about this confession. Now his ex-wife is saying that he was with her in Alabama at the time of the murder. The connection to Georgia seems tenuous at best. What would it have to do with Colorado several years later?
Asked what happened when JonBenet died, he said: “It would take several hours to describe that. It’s a very involved series of events that would involve a lot of time. It’s very painful for me to talk about it.”
Maybe it’s just me, but he sounds like he’s being sufficiently vague because he doesn’t really know the grim details. I guess it will all come out in the wash. I’m very interested in seeing how those DNA comparisons come out.
Yeah, I heard that too. They have to be careful here; maybe this guy is just obsessed with the case to the point of putting himself in it.
Hmmm.
At this point almost anything is possible.
1. He could be a nutcase looking for fame.
2. He could be a plant. A nutcase looking for fame that was primed with some confidential information to give his confession some credibility. This could be to let the real murderer escape.
3. He could be a nutcase that somehow got this information by a leak.
*shrug* frankly until and unless this is hashed out in a court of law I won’t believe a damn thing.
All they needed was a bit of torture, and we would hae had a confession. You know, because infanticide is a horrible, horrible crime.
On the upside, my understanding is torture is not only legal but encouraged in Thailand…
Cane the bastard.
I thought I just heard some damned fool butchering logic? Ah, I’ll ignore whatever that was.
I suspect that this dude was pinched (or in the process of being pinched) for sex crimes against children in Bangkok. Knowing that the prison conditions in Thailand are wretched and the penalty for undisclosed crimes may be very severe, he used his knowledge of the Ramsey case to cop a deal. It captures international attention.
If this hypothesis were true, then the State Department would likely negotiate a sweet deal with the Thai Government to extradite Karr to the U.S. Thailand could feel comfortable with this deal considering the death of a child in America would be a more severe punishment.
It’s already a known variable that this dude was closely watching the public facts of the Ramsey case. He had contact with the producer of a documentary on it. His telling of the minute details could be faked.
Fast-forward to the DNA tests provided after he returns to U.S. soil. They come back negative. He is discovered as a crackpot. He is then freed. Complications occur, and he is never extradited back to Thailand to face his original crimes.
He is then a free man.
Is this likely? Probably not. But, he is educated enough that he might be “crazy like a foxâ€Â.
Well, had our intelligence services believed Patsy Ramsey was fittin’ to fit herself into a Semtex girdle and blow up Mile High Stadium during a Broncos game, and that she knew of two or three others as yet apprehended who were likely to carry out the attack even in her absense, I wouldn’t mind it too much if they turned up the AC, made her listen to Def Leppard Live, and kept her from napping until she fessed up.
Hell—had they wanted to tell her how awful she looked without eyeliner, I’d be for that, too—outrages to the personal dignity of a former beauty pageant contestant be damned!
…Sad to see taking the Bar Exam didn’t improve your ability with analogies, actus.
And Pablo—
I’m not big on child pageants, but then, so what? There is nothing inherently wrong with them—and it fact, from what I learned about that particular subculture (I had no choice, I was living in Colorado at the time of JonBenet’s murder), it always struck me as the late 20th century version of debutante preparatory courses.
I would agree he’s a nutcase. How many times have we seen pedophiles & kiddy-pornsters say “Oh I was just researching a book on theses crimes.” And he says “I loved her.” sick sick sick sick
Natesnake,
There is the little problem of the dude’s outstanding warrant for child pornography in Sonoma County, California.
Like that’s gonna happen.
More likely Eleanor Roosevelt will fly out of my ass singing Camptown Race Track.
After the public apology, I would like to see these media folk do many hours of community service—seeing them in the flourescent vests picking up trash along the interstate would brighten my day.
AP now reporting Karr drugged, raped, then “accidentally” killed her. (CNN.com home page)
TW – come. All right, that is just gross.
Fine Scotch,
I missed that. But it is still possible that he’d rather take a chance of serving time in California (5-10 years?) verses time in a Thai prison (torture ect.).
I am only speculating. I would even venture down this road if it wasn’t for his wife (ex?) giving him an alibi for the night of the murder. Why would she give an alibi, if he already confessed?
Well if anything, bar exam prep hurts that.
But I see we learned that there is a bar before we consider torture. Something like a stadium full of people. Point made.
switch would for would not
Yeah, I guess there’s nothing inherently wrong with child beauty pageants, but it still seems very creepy to spend inordinate amounts of time and money to make five or six year old girls look like prostitutes and perform like organ grinder’s monkeys. Or maybe I’m just getting old and cranky.
Meanwhile, until all the details are known, I’ll remain convinced that Patsy Ramsey had something to do with it. I could be wrong about her, but I’d show more genuine emotion if one of my dogs were killed, for crying out loud.
– The most essential factor in any murder case, or any crime whatsoever for that matter, is the basic idea that you have to actually have been physically located at the critical moment on the scene. His family doesn’t believe he ever “lived” in Boulder, so unless he just dropped in for a drive by quickie, this is looking more like a “get out of Tailand jail” thing.
– Basically it would be a real shame if this is a sham, after 10 long years of disappoinment to the Ramsey family.
– This case was so managed by the clown car press, along with the ineptness of the original Boulder investigators, it’s a miracle if this is the real perp.
Natesnake,
According to that SF Gate article, he’d also been accused of it in Georgia and “one other Southern state”.
I’m not saying it’s not possible he’s fleeing Thailand, it just seems there are other places he could’ve gone.
Jesus. Maybe community colleges should start giving courses in “making your grieving look authentic for the cameras so people don’t assume all sorts of nasty shit about you, even if you’ve never been in trouble in your life and by all accounts you were a fine mom who spent lots of time with your child doing things the kid liked to do.”
You know, just in case.
You don’t SERIOUSLY believe this man, John Karr was anywhere near Jon Benet Ramsey on the night of her murder, do you? (sigh!) People really will believe anything…
It is VERY clear that the child was killed by a family member within her home-the evidence overwhelmingly suggests Patsy Ramsey-particularly damning was the 3 page long “ransom” note-remember that? Why would this obviously troubled drifter- Karr-“confess” to something that does not even comport with the unbotched indisputed evidence that they do have?
I mean, does anyone SERIOUSLY THINK that this man got into the Ramsey home in the middle of the night, did all that he did to her, using Patsy Ramsey’s paint brushes to die the noose around her neck, place her carefully in a back basement room AND write a 3 page suicide note, taken from one of Patsy Ramsey’s murder books that she had under her bed-do you know how long that would take? And no one heard one little peep? Please!
This John Karr, it will be found out, MUCH to the chagrin of the hapless DAs office in Boulder Colorado-to NOT HAVE ONE SINGLE THING TO DO WITH JON BENET’S MURDER-HE WILL BE FOUND TO HAVE AN ALIBI THAT DID NOT PUT HIM ANYWHERE NEAR COLORADO.
Geez, folks, you all will believe ANYTHING, won’t you??
Patsy Ramsey died early from cancer-I believe that happened for a reason. It is crystal clear that she was either the chief perpetrator of that poor child’s death, or an active co-conspirator with her husband.
Woah, someones taking this a bit personal….
Summary of Boulder news conference – “Goodmorning, I cannot comment on anything – thank you.” Mary Lacey – DA
– So now we’ll get to speculate for weeks or possibly months.
schmetterlingtoo,
And where were you the night of Decemember 26, 1996?
Mary Lacy, DA Boulder Co
Where was I on December 26, 1997? At home, taking some hard earned rest from being the good lawyer that I am, Mary.
Well let’s look at all the theories out there. I think it is still too early to make any judgements as of yet. But then you have to take into account of how inept the investigators were. Was his confession borne out of the urgency to stay out of a Thai jail? Maybe, myself, this whole thing makes me sick to my stomach. Jeff, living in SoCal, we are definately far removed from the emotion and disgust that lingers in Colorado, how is the local media reproting this whole ordeal?
Oh and before I forget, actus, you still suck…..
Hey maybe Actus and schmetterlingtoo can open a law firm together.
– Listening to Karr’s comments, not a single thing he has said is descriptive enough in anyway to describe them as a “confession”, at leawst none of his public comments.
“…I felt terrible about what happened to her” – Him and every other decent person in the world…
“…I was with her when it happened and it was an accident… I want everyone to know I loved her….” – Many would say they were “with her” in spirit, and probably many “loved” her from a parental emotion. Most investigators believe the murder was not “planned”, by happened in the heat of the moment.
– The single thing he’s said that is substitive – that he drugged her, and had sex with her are both reffuted by all the evidence collected.
– The Boulder/FBI investigators, reacting to all the bad press from the original investigation, probably know this guy is a crackpot “confessor”, but felt they couldn’t take the chance if there was the slightest chance he was involved.
– Another false start. This guy looks and sounds like a fake.
That’s Singapore. And after the fact.
Didn’t follow the case closely but the odds were heavily in favor of the parents being involved in her death (think OJ, Scott Peterson, the wacko in Utah, etc, etc)…so I have to admit that I continued to think them guilty and blame the police for failing to make the case.
So do I owe the Ramsey’s an apology…I don’t think so. I am happy for the Ramsey’s though. Is that enough?
What the fuck?!
This may actually exceed the “Blair made up 8/16 to distract from Lamont’s primary win” conspiracy theory for utter abject stupidity.
“THEY gave Patsy Ramsey a recurrance of her ovarian cancer to keep her from talking.”
(TW: need. As in “schmetter&c needs psychiatric drugs.”)
No need for that, Todd, it is not “way too early to judge” -the evidence has been gathered in this case for many many years now-and it overwhelmingly points to the parents. There is no dispute on that matter by impartial federal and state law enforcement personnel who have been involved in this case. The ones who say otherwise, have, for the most part, been retained by or have a connection with, the Ramsey family. John McCleary, the former FBI supervisor now consultant who specializes in child murders that occur in the home, has stated many times that all the evidence pointed to the Ramseys as the killer, and he refused to be retained by the Ramsey family as a consultant when asked.
As to Karr-the below-cited article about his research and fascination with the Ramsey case says it all, and the important thing to take away from this is, it is NOT unusual for a troubled individual to become so fixated on a particular unsolved murder that they start to lose touch with reality, and identify with the victim so completely that they confess to things that they have no personal knowledge of whatsoever-in an effort to draw attention to themselves, and gain publicity. This Karr situation, therefore, is not uncommon at all.
The link to an AP wire service article that speaks volumes as to Karr’s “confession.”
news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060817/ap_on_re_us/jonbenet_ramsey_suspect_8
I see what you’re saying, Jeff, and I noted that I could be wrong, but man, she (meaning Patsy) just seemed off, somehow, in every single televised interview that I’ve ever seen. Just to the point of seeming a bit fishy, that’s all.
I’ll recant my position if this guy is convicted.
More skepticism.
How about judging little girls on a standard of physical perfection that entails dressing them up like twenty-something hookers and sending them out to do bump and grind numbers?
In other subcultures, there’s nothing wrong with chopping the clits off them. And in my culture, I’d smack the crap out of anyone who dared dress my six year old like a Vegas showgirl.
YMMV, but we’re not talking about debutantes. We’re talking about six year olds.
She’s still (or was still …) a mother who lost a child. You really can’t make much in the way of judgements based on what you perceive to be her emotional state. Shock is a part of grief, as is denial. Having to deal with it under the dual klieglights of law enforcement and media scrutiny can’t help matters much. “Off” may be far too mild a term for the place she was emotionally.
If you say so. How do feel about those spangly band / baton girl outfits? They show a bit too much leg for my tastes.
Ditto bathing suits.
Or Halloween? How do you feel about Halloween?
Nobody’s asking YOU to dress up your kid in a particular way. What I’m saying is, I don’t find anything “sick” about child pageants, though they aren’t my thing.
Not sure what bump and grind numbers you’re talking about, but I seem to remember a similar argument being made by a Texas Dem who wanted to outlaw cheerleading for similar reasons.
And Kris Kross. Probably wanted to outlaw those little bastards too.
SIX YEAR OLDS.
And that’s really all I have left to say on the subject.
Except that some people don’t find anything sick about female genital mutilation either.
And that if my six-year-old girl wanted to be a whore for Halloween, the answer would be no.
OK, I think that’s all.
No, Pablo is not correct. Patsy Ramsey was clearly NOT in the situation of a bereft mother who had “just lost a child.” Quite the opposite, and that comes from ALL the law enforcement personnel who were in her home with her after she reported the “ransom note.” She had, it was reported by agents in the home- “fake tears” and moreover, one of the female agent reported that Patsy Ramsey would cover her face with her hands, and then spread her fingers apart to watch what was going on around her…
This is what is called in the law “conscious evidence of guilt” and it can well be admissible in court. Patsy Ramsey CLEARLY was implicated in that regard, and most of the handwriting evidence did attribute that 3 page “ransom note” to HER handwriting-although, such handwriting evidence is inconclusive, and generally not admissible in court.
Again, I have to ask, who would kill a child in some stranger’s home, and then sit down to compose a 3 page carefully constructed ransom note,(and it was noted that it came from a yellow legal pad in Ramsey’s home-and that there had been drafts) based loosely on a murder theory from a book under Ramsey’s bed?
The story that an “intruder” killed that child is utterly absurd-nothing, nothing by way of unbotched evidence (and there was quite a lot of that) points in that direction-then, or now.
That’s clear to you, is it? Well then, let’s just dig her up and kill her again!
Boy, if only the Boulder PD had had schmetterlingtoo working for them, this would have all been wrapped up years ago.
But I’ve gotta ask: Have you ever lost a child?
Not a child, but I’m pretty sure Patsy ran over his dog once.
Whose DNA did they find?
Can you get a legal degree in Cosmic Justice?
Is it the second part of that that you have trouble with, Actus?
Uh, well . . . that’s a comfort.
Don’t know what to make of this. Nothing to add. Just plain creepy. Hope it’s figured out.
Equating makeup with whoring. That’s just…well, let’s just say I’m not ready to conflate blush and hairspray with blowing guys in cars for $20.
Simple question:
Why would John Karr’s ex-wife give him an alibi for a crime he as already confessed to?
Something smells fishy.
What is it about this case?
As a parent that whole beauty pageant thing is odd to say the least. I would never encourage my child to participate in such an event. However as a former 6 year old girl I’ve got to confess I would have given my eye teeth to dress up in that feathery glittery outfit. I probably would have wanted to sleep in it.
Since schmetterlingtoo is willing to convict Patsy Ramsey on “fake†tears and the fact she had ovarian cancer I feel a need to defend her in the court of shear speculation and conjecture. Perhaps this beauty pageant stuff gave the woman and her daughter a distraction from dealing with cancer. Maybe the mom gave into her daughter on her every whim because she felt her time was limited … who the hell knows. But it has become clear no matter the verdict on Karr it seems many still want to convict Patsy Ramsey.
I wonder if schmetterlingtoo will make an appearance here an announce how off his speculation was if the DNA evidence indicts Karr?
I need to raise my prices.
natesnake,
I do not know but would you want the father of your children convicted of that crime?
Try whoring without it, bucko. Nothing but crack. Go ahead, try it!
You’ll see.
Of course, little girls adore dress up. All well and good until Mom shoves you out onstage to perform in it.
And for whom? And for what?
They’re divorced. He confessed to the crime. If she signed an affidavit swearing to that alibi, and the DNA tests match his, not only is he going down, the exwife/mother would also go down for perjury. She gains nothing from the deal except jail-time.
As a mother, would you risk your children losing both their father and mother?
Unless she is a complete lunatic, she is giving him an alibi because she knows it is true.
$20? Where?
… just curious, of course.
Thank you. That’s pretty much what I’d expect from my experience with 6 year old giorls, which is to say my sister when I was 9.
(No, we didn’t have to kill the birds ourselves to get the feathers then.)
Remember Patsy Ramsey was a beauty contestant herself. Whatever we may think of it, the people who are in the contests think its the most natural and wholesome thing in the world.
Not only are they divorced, but she divorced him promptly after his April 2001 arrest for some sort of “incident.”
I don’t know what the particulars of that arrest were, but it got him banned from ever working in the California school system ever again, and she won custody of their 3 sons. Sounds extremely serious.
He skipped bail and went overseas after that, apprently. At that point, he lost contact with his father, who thought he was dead.
Very odd, all the way around.
Was it because the mack daddy’ll make you jump, jump?
Makes me want to take a dump, dump.
Lessee, DNA evidence recovered from JonBenet that DOES NOT match ANYONE in the Ramsey household.
Most people fit to serve on a jury would have a bit of problem with that, schmetterlingtoo, not so much.
I got a caps lock key, too, and I know how to use it.
From The Daily Gut:
Quite.
But Schmeterllolloo is an attorney just like Jeralyn Merritt who would be just another liberal loser but for the JonBenet case.
JonBenet and Patsy are buried near where I used to work. I hope John Ramsey pulls a Richard Jewell and sues for libel every finger-pointer right down to their Rockports.
Turing = groups, as in Mob mentality is an ugly, ugly thing in large groups.
</blockquote>Geez, folks, you all will believe ANYTHING, won’t you??
Really? Why don’t you ask McCleary how many children have been killed by a parent in which the method involved bashing in the side of the child’s head and garroting. Since I already know you won’t do your research, I’ll give you the answer: ZERO.
Schmetter, ya got me there. I always suspected that everyone impaneled on that grand jury must have been friends with Mrs. Ramsey. Oh, and DA Mary Lacy too. And US District Judge Julie E. Carnes. Damn that Patsy, being friends with everybody
tw: Schmetterlingtoo knew very well that the posts he authored were the idiotic ravings of a twit. This made him very proud.
I seem to recall an investigatory report of the factory where those underwear were made (ironically enough, in Thailand)… and the report showed that quite a few pair of those underwear when tested showed degraded DNA (which is what was found in this case) even though they were new in the package.
It’s not like every manufacturing process takes place in a clean-room environment, after all.
TW: What will your thinking be if DNA testing of this suspect shows no match with that collected at the crime scene?
Gotta go along with Pablo on this one.
There is all this collective outrage in the media over the very thought of somebody—some monster!—indentifying this little girl as a sex object and then, allegedly, exploiting her to a murderous end.
So how does the U.S. media handle it? By putting her dolled-up pagaent pictures back on parade.
Seriously, has anyone seen a news photo of JonBenet where she isn’t wearing makeup?
I’m not sure that I have.
First of all, “I” have nothing to do with the official evidence. The few bits of information that I related (and there is so much more) regarding Patsy Ramsey’s fake tears, and her fake expressions of sadness are all part of the official law enforcement file-and such evidence IS admissible in court, on the issue of Ramsey’s state of mind at the time, which goes to conscious evidence of guilt.
But there is far more damning evidence than that-and as to the “other person” evidence that one poster trumpets as evidence that an “intruder” killed JonBenet-really, there could be ANY explanation of that: It is difficult to explain to lay persons-because they automatically want to go into crime scene mode and think a certain way about such a defense.
Let me give you an example: A lawyer I know quite well-a prosecutor, was handling the Jeffrey McDonald case from the 70’s the doctor who claimed that a Manson style hippie gang had killed his wife and children. Jeff. McD was convincted of the crime, and continues to rave on about evidence out there that would exonerate him-many, many people have taken up his cause (just as with the Ramseys-except the Ramseys are wealthier) there have been television programs about McDonald, all sorts of “new” evidence-like, unknown blond hairs in a brush-this was cited as evidence of the “intruder hippie” theory.
But what were those blond hairs really? Why, doll hairs. But that wasn’t reported by those who would write a story on Mcdonald’s “innocence.”
The same thing in the Ramsey case-there are all sorts of perfectly mundane explanations for finding other person’s DNA around the house.
And I will repeat this again-the FBI is absolutely convinced that Patsy Ramsey killed her child with assistance on cover-up by her husband John-they had every motive to cover it up. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Patsy Ramsey is the perpetrator, and it could have started out just simply as anger at the child for having wet the bed, and the fact that they had to get up early the next day to catch a plane to their vacation house-she could have come down and in a split seconf of vicious tired anger, cracked the child on the head with something she had in her hand, causing her to go unconscious and bleed. Then, realizing that she could not take the child to a hospital because she would ruin the family (and John’s position) by being labeled a child batterer, possibly going to prison herself-she decided to finish off the job of killing her as she did, getting the noose, breaking her paint brushes and tying them around that poor child’s neck, and then sitting down to write that elaborate 3 page cover-up of why the child was no longer in the house.
That is not at all unusual-those types of cover-up crimes happen in the home against children by their parents-not frequently, but they do happen, pretty much in that way-it starts off with something relatively innocent triggering a fit of anger in the parent, where the parent loses their temper and in a split second does something to the child that severely injures or kills-the elaborate cover-up then follows.
What IS unusual here is the pollution of the crime scene-there are no words to describe that tragedy, and those foul-ups-with respect to the parents.
And what is even MORE absolutely unheard of, is for an intruder to come into a house, for that length of time, to concoct a plot, where they sit down in the family study to compose an essay concerning a “ransom” and then use all the household materials in the middle of the night to create a noose, change the child’s clothes, and then put the child in a back basement room that only the family could know about -ALL WITHOUT A SOUND.
You don’t NEED to be a rocket scientist to figure out how utterly non-credible the Ramsey’s story always was.
But everyone will see about Karl soon enough-they will eventually exonerate him of any connection to JonBenet’s murder whatsoever- because he will be found to have been nowhere near Colorado. Karl is obviously living out a sick fixation on JonBenet-but that pattern is not unusual, by any means.
John Ramsey’s muted “satisfaction” with this latest turn of events is quite temporary…
What will your thinking be if DNA testing of this suspect shows no match with that collected at the crime scene?
The same as it is now. I have no idea is Karr is the quilty party or a nut, or both. That’s what juries are supposed to determine. In the case of Patsy Ramsey, the grand jury did not find suffienct evidence to bring charges against Mrs. Ramsey.
But if the DNA matches Karr? I think that will be a slam dunk for the prosecution…
tw:… unless of course, a trial is held in the City of Los Angeles, State of California. In which case, all bets are off!
LAYMANPHOBE!
tw: In <i>want<blockquote> of style, he chose capslock.
If the DNA matches Karr, I agree it’s a slam dunk and he did it (beyond any reasonable doubt).
My broader question has to do with all of the folks who are going around blustering about demanding apologies left, right and center from eveyone who said anything bad about John and Patsy… if the DNA and other exculpatory evidence shows that Karr didn’t do it, are these same folks prepared to apologize themselves to those from whom they are demanding apologies?
Aren’t they engaging in the same sort of rush-to-judgement for which they are condemning these hateful finger-pointers… and on far less evidence?
I believe John Ramsey himself has stated that no one should be presuming the guilt of Karr… that instead they should wait for the process to work itself out.
Seems like pretty prudent advice to me. I wonder why the apology-demanders aren’t following it?
– Just for the sake of curiosity, I went back and reviewed Dectective Thomas’s book on the case, and it refreshed my memory concerning the case.
– The Ramsey’s sued Thomas, but just at the point when it was deposition time They dropped the entire suit. No harm, no foul, no wrongdoing, etc etc. Thomas lost his saving’s and house, but maintained his presentation was the most likely senario. Patsy was not a Killer, in the sense that she intentionally murdered her child, but she most likely did lash out at her over the bed wetting incident that night, something she was known to be extremely angry over, and in the process the child was proably fatally injured. I’ll leave it to those of you interested enough to review the excerpts from his writing which appear online in a fairly compact, but concise review. Patsy was not a bad person, just a wealthy socialite who panicked in a situation and handled it in the Kennedy way.
– Reviewing the ransom note, one is struck with the use of certain words such as “attache”, and several other words which are not commonly used in middle class circles. It seems to wax back and forth from faux “tough talk” to an aloof writing style. Such as you might expect from a panicky debutante, trying to sound brutish, but unable to escape her refined upbringing. the fact that the writter knew almost exactly the amount of John’s most recent bonus is rather damning.
– Overall, its the proponderance of “devil in the details” that is so compeling.
– If you havn’t seen it Jeff you might want to glance it over. Unless this latest suspect turns out to be real, the Thomas senario is hard to refute. If true we’ll probably never know for sure, since she will have taken the truth with her to her grave.
schmetterlingtoo,
I bet people are always are commenting after your grand summations, “No one would ever accuse schmetterlingtoo of being a rocket scientist.”
Didn’t the Ramseys both pass polygraph tests five times each?
Don’t some innocent people fail polygraph tests?
I will not attest to the Ramsey’s guilt or innocence, but I highly suspect that John Karr is innocent of the JonBenet crime.
Karr definitely fits the description, and is likely a sexual predator, but not in this particular instance.
Also, if my suspicion is correct, then John Karr knowing that he’s fucked six ways of Sunday for other sex crimes on U.S. soil, figures he might as well take responsibility for JonBenet just for the notoriety.
“If I’m going to forcibly raped and likely killed in prison, I might as well be famous.”
I get the distinct impression that those who are talking don’t know, and those who know aren’t talking.
For a long time in the Manson murder case, it was reported and believed that one of the victims had a hood place over her head. Only much later, with the release of Vincent Bugliosi’s book, was it revealed that the hood was really a towel that was just randomly tossed back into the room, as the killers were leaving.
Much of what “everyone” “knows” will doubtless turn out to be the same sort of thing in this case.
Turing = using, as in That of course won’t stop anyone from using the bits they think they know, to make a splash on the WWW.
OK, I have a conspiracy theory that’ll knock your socks off, and here it is. Now what JonBenet’s mama did with her was truly weird and in my opinion sick, dressing her up like a little whore and having her perform like that. Jesus Christ, guys, she was just a little girl! So the question is: Was JonBenet’s mama fishing or did she hust happen to attract a shark?
– Soooooo, I guess we can safely assume urinating in the aisles is unacceptable behavior on a commercial airliner. Glad we got that straight before some “elitist” decides “teh flying crazy” from Vermont is just misunderstood.
Murder confessions are worthless. Juries like them, but only morons are allowed on murder juries. (It’s really hard not to go on an anti-prosecutor rant right here.)
The scene evidence in this case is all worthless. Legally, the case is dead. It has been since the minute the cops showed up. They fucked this up so bad, they can’t even railroad some drifter. (And it’s hard not to go on an anti-police rant here.)
The Ramseys’ media image aside (I seem like an asshole on TV, too (I’d take my odds in a police shootout over my chances before a jury)), we’re left with “dead kid in the house = Mom did it”â€â€a statistically justified presumptionâ€â€and there are thousands of men imprisoned for life on less, and equally compromised, evidence than exists against Patsy.
So unless some Don Rickles type says “I’m sorry Patsy didn’t die ten years sooner,” there won’t be any apologies.
Well, shiiiiiit, if the Ramseys (one or more) “really” did it, and there’s evidence, then why the hell isn’t someone convicted and sitting in prison the way Jeffrey MacDonald is? Don’t quite get that.
Well, of course, “nice” girls, at least in the South, take what are known as “charm” classes, a combination of lessons in etiquette, grooming, and posture. And cotillion. I know even Yankee girls go to cotillion.
Now there’s an image.
tw: body of evidence
Attache? Attache?
Well, then what the hell did my father carry home every night? If the writer had said, I guess, “briefcase”, would there be less suspicion? How did the cops know the kidnapper’s class?
Attache my ass.
– You’ll have to attache it yourself Meg. I have enough trouble taking care of my own ass.
The Denver Post and Rocky Mountain News are running stories that are showing quite a bit of information that implies that Karr isn’t the perp in the JonBenet case.
TW: Just when you thought this case couldn’t get any wierder, it does.
Scot sez:
No, I haven’t. This is probably as far as you’ll get away from this.
Did I mention that she was SIX?
tw: Remember
preview tw: Run
Oy.
I wonder, is there anything to make of this quote from Karr:
Heh. Indeed. (with apologies to the blogfather)
(from CNN )
TW: Will this nutjob’s false confession rate a “worst famewhore evar” award?
This is possibly a sue-able offence for me to say this, but this Karr fellow looks a lot like Gary Numan to me, from certain angles.
My final point (as I’m leaving to go on a well-deserved summer vacation) is that Nate’s comment is WELL taken, and shows Karr is thinking about his future! It seems very clear that Karr is going to prison for a long time on other sexual predator-type charges-he figures, I’ve always been fixated on JonBenet, I know all about the case from when I did an extensive paper in college, at the request of my professor, WHY NOT confess to the crime to the filmmaker who absolutely believes that Patsy Ramsey COULDN’T have killed her child (such things never touch wealthy folk) and that JonBenet’s killer was an intruder?
If I do that, if I bring notoriety and fame upon myself by confessing to JonBenet’s murder, that will indeed help prevent me from getting killed in jail…and might even get me a better shake in court, because I might get a famous lawyer to represent me (good lawyers like to take pro bono cases of persons who have become media images as it gives THEM the media exposure to help their business) Karr is not wrong on that.
I was with my wife when she got pregnant.
Oh, and Big Bang Hunter-I just now read your post, above, I tell you, I did not know about the investigator’s details regarding JonBenet, or the libel suit filed by the Ramseys-what you said was fascinating-I did not know any of that, particularly about the part where the case was dropped just before depositions-depositions-where the Ramseys would have been under oath to answer very pointed questions that may have been at odds with previous statements that they had made, including the ramsom note. Thanks for that-at some point, I’d like to review what the officer/investigator said-and the fact that he lost his life savings having to defend himself-wealth does indeed speak very loudly where a criminal matter is concerned.
No, he’s a robotic Norman Bates that got accidentally reprogrammed. Look at his affect on TV. W E I R D
Do they take confessions to juries? or just plead with them?
They do when the defendant’s lawyer talks sense into him and he pleads NG.
But you wouldn’t know about that, being a… lawyer…
Oh. I have no idea how murder prosecutions are actually done. But I would imagine that confessions which a lawyer still thinks he can avoid by pleading NG wouldn’t be a very good one.
I say take this fella and knock him in the head.
He looks like a white Michael Jackson.
Then knock Michael Jackson in the head.
Then just let the mystery be.
1st post, and all I can say is what runs through my head when I see the band’s name is Def Leppard:
Gunter glieben glauchen globen
– One of the things that’s always bothered me about this case is the manner in which John Ramsey used his money and influence to “control†as many aspects of the investigation as possible. The Ramsey’s most definately were not required to follow any of the normal investigative steps that any average person in the same situation would have been compelled to do, and even on those occassions when they met with authorities, they demanded, and got, special treatment, shielded by layers of their own “private investigators”, lawyers, and experts, in attendence, and controlling any and all questioning.
– Larry King had all three on his talk show a few years after the tragedy, and its obvious the Ramseys were very carefully controlling every instance of media or law inforcement interface. That seems to be one of the major reasons Thomas and the Boulder police were suspicious. The Ramseys mounted a very concerted effort to play up the notion that the police were inept, and messed up the investigation, particularly after they failed to cooperate in a straightforward manner and came under suspicion. They did the same with the FBI investigators. John never missed a chance to plead that at every opportunity. Here’s the link to the transcript of Larry’s show where the three appeared together.
– In summary, they manged to ruin Thomas, but never were held accountable in any meaningful way for all the evidence that pointed to Patsy, and most importantly, and I think this is really the key, Patsy never had to appear on the stand in a court of law, which I think was the bottom line for Johns efforts. I think he deeply suspected his wife was very possibly involved, and simply wanted to avoid having to honestly deal with that possibility. Everything the Ramseys did from day one had the effect, and result, of avoiding a direct confrontation or accounting with the police.
– None of that proves anything. What it does illustrate is that money and influence very definately can change the way the law proceeds, which is probably unavoidable in any practical human interprise.
TW: Of course there’s always the nuclear option.
Way late and miles down the thread, but…
The ding tank in Colorado is a lot more comfortable than any Thai prison I’ve ever been in.
TW:then. That was.
If Karr did it, why isn’t anyone from Boulder, even the entire state of Colorado, stepping up to say, “Hey, I remember that guy.” If he spent any length of time there, even if he dropped in for occasional weekends or whatever, wouldn’t someone remember seeing this guy somewhere, particularly since he’s such an odd duck? Apparently, NO ONE IN COLORADO KNOWS HIM. Hard to get around this fact. He didn’t teach at her school, didn’t babysit her, etc., and during the semester leading up to this was taking classes in Alabama and living with his wife/kids. Simply put, he didn’t know these people. The only possibility might be her beauty pageant stuff, and him seeing her perform. Still, if he hung out at pageants in CO and managed to get to know her family, etc., and the little girl herself, again, someone would remember that weird little guy.
All his “connections” to this poor child and her family are after-the-fact. Nothing is surfacing about them being connected before the murder. If no one comes forward in the next week or two, then I think we can safely assume he never spent any time in Colorado, nor was there any person who introduced him to the Ramseys and their little girl, or witnessed any of them together at any point. Add to that the fact that his ex says he was with her, and it isn’t looking very likely.
He is disgusting and a complete wacko, and I’d like to see him under the jail, but so far I’ve absolutely nothing that establishes any kind of relationship between him and the murdered child.
He didn’t do it because he only came to “know” this child in his own obsessive fantasies after her death. He is crazy and obsessed, and he appears to care about how he’s perceived on camera and by the public. I think this is all some sick fantasy and makes him feel like an important person.