Former NYT Middle East correspondent and WSJ Energy Editor Youssef M. Ibrahim notes the writing on the wall, and offers some words of advice for the Palestinian people. From Jewish World Review:
[…] Dear Palestinian Arab brethren:
The war with Israel is over.
You have lost. Surrender and negotiate to secure a future for your children.
We, your Arab brothers, may say until we are blue in the face that we stand by you, but the wise among you and most of us know that we are moving on, away from the tired old idea of the Palestinian Arab cause and the “eternal struggle” with Israel.
Dear friends, you and your leaders have wasted three generations trying to fight for Palestine, but the truth is the Palestine you could have had in 1948 is much bigger than the one you could have had in 1967, which in turn is much bigger than what you may have to settle for now or in another 10 years. Struggle means less land and more misery and utter loneliness.
[…]
Your young people are growing up illiterate, ill, and bent on rites of death and suicide, while you, in effect, are living on the kindness of foreigners, including America and the United Nations. Every day your officials must beg for your daily bread, dependent on relief trucks that carry food and medicine into the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, while your criminal Muslim fundamentalist Hamas government continues to fan the flames of a war it can neither fight nor hope to win.
In other words, brothers, you are down, out, and alone in a burnt-out landscape that is shrinking by the day.
What kind of struggle is this? Is it worth waging at all? More important, what kind of miserable future does it portend for your children, the fourth or fifth generation of the Arab world’s have-nots?
We, your Arab brothers, have moved on.
Those of us who have oil money are busy accumulating wealth and building housing, luxury developments, state-of-the-art universities and schools, and new highways and byways. Those of us who share borders with Israel, such as Egypt and Jordan, have signed a peace treaty with it and are not going to war for you any time soon. Those of us who are far away, in places like North Africa and Iraq, frankly could not care less about what happens to you.
Only Syria continues to feed your fantasies that someday it will join you in liberating Palestine, even though a huge chunk of its territory, the entire Golan Heights, was taken by Israel in 1967 and annexed. The Syrians, my friends, will gladly fight down to the last Palestinian Arab.
Before you got stuck with this Hamas crowd, another cheating, conniving, leader of yours, Yasser Arafat, sold you a rotten bill of goods  more pain, greater corruption, and millions stolen by his relatives  while your children played in the sewers of Gaza.
The war is over. Why not let a new future begin?
Not much to add here—other than that soon, Syria, who has pledged its allegiance with Hezbollah (likely under orders from Iran) may be rendered impotent, as well, and no fleet of suicide drones is likely to stop Israel from destroying the terror group now that she’s set their minds to it. If, in fact, Israeli leadership has decided to use the current configuration and momentum in the middle east—specifically, Iran’s inability to protect Syria and the buzz of democratic reform (gee, thanks, George Bush!)—to end the Assad regime and remove Hezbollah’s influence over southern Lebanon.
(h/t Pablo)
For overnight links, see Dan Riehl and PJM.
And a note of interest on the political front: a little creative editing never hurt anyone, right?—especially if it’s to hide a bit of bald antisemitism?
The stars say that it’s better for business to keep the Jew-hatred veiled. After all, eliminationish rhetoric about Jews is only to whispered about at parties—not actually published. Just ask the Europeans.
*****
update: Via Hot Air, we learn that not only is Bush blaming Hezbollah for the hostilities, but
Foreign ministers of 18 Arab countries held an emergency summit in Cairo on Saturday over Israel’s expanding assault on Lebanon, but squabbles over the legitimacy of Hezbollah’s attacks on Israel – including the capture of two Israel Defense Forces soldiers that sparked the 4-day battle – appeared likely to keep participants from reaching a consensus, delegates said.
The Saudi foreign minister appeared to be leading a camp of ministers criticizing the guerrilla group’s actions, calling them “unexpected, inappropriate and irresponsible acts.â€Â…
Supporting his stance were representatives of Egypt, Jordan, Kuwait, Iraq, the Palestinian Authority, the United Arab Emirates and Bahrain, delegates said on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the talks.
Hot Air also links Rick Moran, who is following the Ynet story suggesting that Israel has delivered Syria’s Assad a 72-hour ultimatum. For its part, Israel is denying the report.
See also, Ed Morrissey, The Anchoress, and Jawa Report.
Dry Bones also has a biting, dead on take on the situation.
Thanks for the hat tip, Jeff!
They should have used a more misha-like formulation. Cuz then you can respond: “Just schtick. Just hyperbole you know? Sheesh, have a sense of humor, targets of my eliminitaionsm.”
But perhaps this sort of response doesn’t really work, and its best to just wise up.
Besides the disgusting prejudice of antisemitism, what really irriates me is how illogical it is.
If Europe want to hate The Other, fine, but hate all Others equally. The Jews have never attacked or voices a wish to take over the rest of the world.
Why take the side of whoever is against the Jews?
At least this time America won’t turn its back on Israel as it did on so many refugees of the Holocaust, to our shame.
TW: There will be no springtime for Hitler or anyone as evil as he.
actus
You don’t get much fiber in your diet, do you?
actus-
Misha, wrong as he was, spoke out of exasperation.
The Kos Kidz speak from a heartfelt desire.
Know the difference.
Like I said, its best to just wise up.
actus. How much further does the left have to go in alienating itself into pyhryahood before it realizes its shitting on it’s own heritage?
– The Lebanon Prime Minister has asked the UN to call for a cease fire. The head of the Arab League has stated the peace process is dead, and is also appealing to the UN.
– Think maybe they know they’ve fucked the duck this time?
Looks to me like Israel is simply creating a brand-new crop of terrorists.
Not to mention
(1) threatening the stability of Lebanon and
(2) putting at risk thousands of AMericans now stranded in Lebanon because of Israel’s policy of hitting transport facilities.
And of course the US tacitly approves.
After all, Israel is supposed to be the main beneficiary (at least theoretically) of all that neo-con clap trap that formed the basis of the Bush foreign policy in the Middle East.
Beats me what Israel hopes to gain by all that death and destruction it’s pumping out.
They surely arn’t ever going to see those soldiers again; and they arn’t going to reduce terrorist attacks against Israel by slamming Lebanon.
They tried this latter once before and it didn’t work out too well.
Oh and actus. Seeing the Left consistantly on the wrong side of the fence in this clash of civilizations has to make your comment “wise up” the poster child example of post-modern cognitive dissonance.
Same to you Goss, and all your fellow travlers. I sincerely hope that after the Islamic-Fascists are wipped out we keep right on going, and take care of the hard Left brown-shirts.
Powerful post, Mr. Goldstein. It’s also worth noting that your suicide drone link has been updated because the drone was really an Iranian missile. I think this adds a new dimension to the conflict and it may explain why Israel is threatening Syria now.
How do you mean?
FWIW, it seems the Iranian missile came from China.
actus, you remind everyone of the guy in the Insurance commercials from back awhile ago, which usually pictured him in some setting, with a diving missile, Commercial airliner, six foot steel safe, or baby grand piano, screaming in toward his head while he asked:
“Insurance…. why ever would I need ins….”
Carl
Like Israel’s “land for peace” and handing over a Judanrein Gaza to the Islamists placated them and all the daily rockets (over 800) fired into Israel since then were just Arab gestures of love, eh?
How would you feel if the Aztlan thugs controlled a large area of northern Mexico, ignored and unchallenged by the Mexican government, and they fired rockets into San Diego, then came across the border to murder American civilians and kidnap American soldiers?
Would you then blame Americans for the affair??
What is Hezbollah doing with headquarters in Beirut if they aren’t there with the permission of the Lebanonese government?
Holding Israel to a different standard than one would hold any other country under similar circumstances is anti-semitism.
Period.
The Arabs will have peace with Israel once they value their own children more than they ate the Jews.
Islamism must be a thoroughly defeated as fascism was 60 years ago.
Go Israel.
oops
…then they hate the Jews. …
Actus, if your purpose in this thread is to try to highlight some perceived hypocrisy, maybe you oughta get that whole goddamn giant sequoia tree out of your own eye before you snark about a mote in Misha’s eye.
You are full of used food.
Usually telephone poles help with communication.
Goss umasked himself as soon as he mentioned ‘threatening the stability of Lebanon,’ as if Lebanon was remotely stable, or had not allowed an islamic terror outfit to control a large swath of it’s government and political landscape. You say ‘threatening the stability’ as if that was a bad thing. Are you then in favor of a Lebanon dominated by an Hizballah/Syria/Iran axis?
Your arguments are disingenuous at best. You don’t give a fig for the Lebanese, they are only pawns in your game.
Used food, McGeehee? Hmmm….
Smells frischy to me!
The Israeli actions, ever since the first kidnapping in Gaza three weeks ago, have been predicated on getting their soldiers back.
Since they don’t exactly know where the soldiers are, the actions in Gaza were designed to target Hamas leaders, i.e., collectively punish Hamas until they released the dude. That didn’t work and then there was collateral damage.
Right after that, Hezbollah stepped in and hit some more IDF soldiers and abducted two more. Israel’s response to that, mostly, has been to try to protect the soldiers, by blockading/bombing ports, highways, airports. The two soldiers are still in Lebanon, fershur.
There are two other things the Israelis have to deal with. H&H are drawing blood (over a dozen IDF soldiers and sailors are dead), Israel has to look strong in the face of that. So that’s an element of intensity in the response.
The other element is getting the Lebanese government to take control of the situation. That’s the logic behind “collective punishment” of Lebanese national assets.
That last I don’t think will work. If the Lebanese government is so weak that it can’t control its territory from the gitgo, then bombing its assets isn’t going to make them stronger.
But the IDF doesn’t want to invade and/or occupy the ground, and the Lebanese can’t occupy the ground. I think if I was controlling the IDF, at this point, I would focus on (a) where are the Hezbollah airborne assets, find them, and destroy them. (b) find concentrations of Hezbollah and destroy them.
I think the reason the Israelis haven’t done this yet is because they are tired, too. An invasion of South Lebanon—that’s what it will take—will cause a lot Israeli casualties; not “a lot” in the sense we mean it, but, remember, Israel’s a small country.
Another part of the problem is that neither the US nor Israel can actually talk to their opposite numbers because they “won’t negotiate with terrorists.” They should get over that, if they want a political solution. If they don’t want a political solution, then again, we’re talking re-invasion and re-occupation of all Pali and H&H territories, and again there’s probably a good reason why the Israelis aren’t doing that. Namely, the Israelis themselves don’t want that.
Widening the war to Syria, or Iran, or whatever isn’t going to help Israel, or, for that matter, the US. I mean, you kill Assad, or bomb Tehran, big deal. I look at these terrorist groups, swimming in a sea of popular support or tolerance, and I see people who basically don’t give a shit. You have to give them a reason to care.
Analogies to World War Two don’t really work because those were governments, which, once put down, we had basically quiet populations to work with. Guerilla movements are something else.
Sometimes I look up and ponder the stars and think WHAT THE FLYING FUCK IS WRONG WITH CARL GOSS?
How stupid can you BE?
Really?
Israel is A) destroying weapons, B) killing terrorists, and C) delivering a severe ass-whopping to Hezbollah (see A and B).
How in the name of Poseidan’s crusty crack do you get X (= # of terrorists) and J (# of terrorists grilled like Mom used to make, Mmmmm mmmm scrumptious) and then say X – J is greater than X?!
Engrish, muthafucker, do you speak it? This is a basic word problem, not freaking calculus, A-R-I-T-H-M-A-T-I-C. Do us all a favor and carry terrorist water over in Gaza, not here.
/exposition at the National Arsenal of Clue Battery
Looks to me like Israel is simply creating a brand-new crop of terrorists.
Oh, you’re probably right, Carl. But the whole point of the article was that they need to finally think about planting a crop of something else before it is depleted utterly.
TW: opened
Hezbollah has finally o the can of whoopass they never imagined would come.
Goss and Actus are composed of the same pre-metabolized refried beans. Pass the Charmin.
Carl Goss:
Egypt and Jordan don’t fuck with Israel much these days, why is that? Could it be that they have figured out it hurts when they do? You think maybe Lebanon and Syria are capable of learning the same lesson?
Why would you care?
Steve, the whole argument that this is Israel inflicting “coolective punishment” is specious, and frankly silly. Israel is hitting direct Hizbullah targets — their HQ, the launch sites for the missles, and sites where missles are being stored — and the bridges, roads, and airports that connect southern lebanon with Syria — which is to say, Hizbullah’s logistics.
It’s a shame that Lebanese who aren’t associated with Hizbullah are getting hurt, but it’s no more “collective punishment” than when the US hit bridges and factories providing materiél to the Nazis, even though there were Germans who weren’t Nazis.
At least that is what he has heard.
Once a Marine, always a Marine.
#1 Charlie: I don’t think “collective punishment” is necessarily a bad thing, but it is clear that Lebanese national assets are being hit. I mean even the Israelis acknowledge that. The point is that it doesn’t make the Lebanese stronger to take control of the situation.
#2 Actus is baiting people to deliver threats.
That’s what they say, but I don’t believe it. I think they are trying to keep their hostages from being moved.
Steve, you never enter a battlespace without shaping it. Israel has reduced the ability of Hez to reinforce and resupply in Lebanon (destroying the runways, not the hangars btw), and blockading the country.
Precisely wrong. Iran and Syria supply Hez AND the Iraqi insurgents with weapons, cash (so they don’t have to get day jobs, can move, etc), equipement and training.
Syria and Iran are the exact reason that Israel is fighting rocket attacks, drones, and guys with guns instead of pitch forks.
Yes, it matters a great deal whether Syria and Iran survive as terrorist states. It matters a great deal whether Syria and Iran can resupply Hez and Hamas with weapons, equipment, ammunition, and training (for Carl “Fucking Idiot” Goss’ budding baby bombers, who are going to be rank amateurs unless someone schools them up). Drop Syria and Iran is alone and isolated. Drop Iran and the Islamic revolution is over.
It matters.
Here’s a clue Carl. Anti-semitism and the glory of martrydom in killing Jews is explicitly taught in Palestinian schools and is repeated on children’s shows on Palestinian TV (as well as most other Arab Muslim countries). So pretty much every Palestinian child is a potential terrorist with a seething hatred of Israel. Where Carl, are they going to get a “brand-new” crop of terrorists? Illegal aliens from Mexico?
Anybody ever notice that people who talk about process are the ones who never deliver results?
TW history. Those who… I’m not going to say it. Wars end when one side wins.
Steve,
#1 Then you should pick another term: “collective punishment” is specifically forbidden by the Geneva Conventions. If you keep using it, you’re going to keep making the unitiated suspect that you’re assucing Israel of war crimes.
#2 Works for me. Actus: begone or we shall taunt you again.
Goss IIRC is a “one load” troll…so don’t expect a response.
Steve, it is nonsensical to expect the Lebanese to risk their personal safety to speak out against Hezbullah and Syria. Of course they value the status quo which was a path back to properity. But the status quo was obviously unstable and will be as long as a large group of folks in the region are fixated on the destruction of Israel. Getting rid of Hezbullah is the only way forward if that is possible at all.
Verc: I am betting the Israelis are not going to invade South Lebanon. If I am right “reshaping” is irrelevant. If you are right, well, we’ll see about that.
Again, as per Syria and Iran, well, sure, if you invade and overthrow those two countries then H&H will have a much harder time of it. But I didn’t say that. No one is going to invade either country. That’s why I specifically talked about killing Assad and bombing Tehran.
I realize this opens the door on the big debate of the efficacy of air power. No need to rehash it here. I am on the side of the “occupying the ground” part of the argument. And neither the US nor Israel has the boots to do either.
Steve, are you actually confused about what ”logistics” means, or were you just not thinking when you wrote this?
In any case, just to clear it up, logistics includes the movement — including evacuation — of personnel.
I am all in favor of “getting rid of Hezbollah”, but you have to do that on the ground.
Charlie: If you want Logistics to mean that, fine. Normally, however, we are going to construe logistics as beans, bullets, and bandaids for Hezbollah. In the time frame in which the initial raid took place, and the rapidity of the IDF response to roads, bridges, etc., I think it was more hostage related than say weapons for Hezbollah related.
At some point I’d like to believe all this Joooooo fear and antisemetic language will sink in and Jews will stop voting so heavily for Democrats as a bloc.
Well, where’s the sign-up sheet? How’s this for some internets threats.
WARNING: The communication that preceded is tailored specifically to the frequencies of retards. Only actus should be able to discern the meaning, which shall be forthcoming as a mindblowing nonsequitar within 3-2-1…
Agreed, but that’s why I’m convinced the Israelis will go in on the ground in southern Lebanon. This operation only makes sense if it’s intended to crush Hizbullah. If I had to guess, I’d say that the expected end of the operation is a military defeat of Hizbullah in the south and a concurrent decimation of Hamas in Gaza; with Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Abu Dhabi (sp?), and others all saying that this is Hizbullah’s fault, and with Hizbullah’s logistics cut off, they aren’t going to survive as a military force ror more than a few days; the only way for Israel to be sure they’re cleared out is on the ground.
I’m confident that Israel has gamed out a possible entry into the war by Syria as a proxy for Iran, or of Iran itself; my own guess is that they’re betting on a quick collapse of Syria under air attack, and on Iran not to join the fray openly. But this had to be done before they believed Iran might be able to deliver a nuke.
“Syria, who has pledged its allegiance with Hezbollah (likely under orders from Iran) may be rendered impotent”
Excuse me pls, but how might secular Syria be under orders from ultra-religious Iran? This doesn’t fit with the description of control freak Assad. At best, both nations may have a fragile alliance because of facing the same threats, if at all. Do you really think you know enough about the Middle East to play the pundit here, Jeff?
Follow the link, Steve. I didn’t just pull the definition out of my ass.
He who pays the piper calls the tune.
But we DO. And so does Israel. Note that Israel is no longer a permanent presence in Gaza and has called up the reserves. Israel does not do that for nothing.
And there is no way to destroy Hez with going into Syria, into the Bekaa valley. If the Israelis are going to destroy Hez, as they stated, they must invade Syria.
but who ever said they would stay? I personally think it would be beneficial to see Syria disintegrate into Greater Lebanon, Kurdistan, a Syria proper and cede the rest to Iraq and Jordan. But in any case, Israel can invade, annhilate Hez, punish or overthrow the Alawite regime, and get out. They owe the Syrians nothing.
We could even have our beloved UN step up to clean the mess. And wouldn’t that be something?
Remind me to make Karl Hungus make a pitstop.
And now instead of such doubletalk, Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia have denounced Hezbollah/Syria. IOW they gave Israel a permission slip to destroy them and their sponsor.
Boy Assad is looking for friends anywhere he can get them, Gray. I doubt he has developed a military that could face Israel’s (because they would destroy him first) so Iran is about it, if he wants to survive. Or perhaps he will embark on a long vacation to Paris with his trophy wife for a very civilized post-Baathist domicile.
Interesting point.
I wonder what else they might find in the Bekaa?
Ooh. I’m afraid Gray’s got me. No secular Arab state would effort support terror efforts.
Nope.
Won’t happen.
But one thing Gray does seem to forget…
No problem. I’m intelligence; I’ll lock my door and type more.
Failing that, it’s the Navy coffee.
(I wonder if that counts as a chemical weapon?)
Of course, a CIA/Zionist plant of evidence that doesn’t really matter anyways because ChimpyMcHitlerBurton lied, Lied, LIED!!! and Red-state BushBots died!
I just hope that some of those weapons (really no more lethal than clorox, trust us) do not get launched into Israel proper, because ouch, what do falafels cooked to 2 million degrees taste like?
Probably pretty crispy.
What hypocrisy? Nobody thinks what misha did is cool.
My understanding has always been that it was a question of power, not permission. Look at the IDF, now trying to dislodge hesbollah, they’re much more powerful than whatever army lebanon can field, and haven’t been able to move hesbollah till perhaps now.
Because BBH is often quite wrong, so I want to know what he’s talking about.
“I ain’t the goddamn hot toddy fairy.”
K, at least you’ve got some humor. Though not everybody will laugh about your cock obsessed rants [Gray attempts to link to the now familiar “Sadly, We’re Obsessed with Jeff’s Purported Obsession with COCKS!” post; but as I made clear the other day, I DENOUNCE MYSELF AND ANY POTENTIAL COUPLING WITH UNICORNS!]
(I guess that’s you, Jeff, but my Firefox browser doesn’t show many of the comment names)
Oops, sry. How to insert links here?
Those weren’t rants, Gray. They were responses and jokes.
Which, I wouldn’t expect the “cycle of violence” crowd to be able to tell the difference.
Meanwhile, that particular post has been linked here by Sadly, We’re Obsessed with Goldstein and His Purported Obsession with COCKS! readers a hundred times already.
If you think it an accurate portrayal of what you’ve seen since you’ve been reading here, you’re not too bright.
Otherwise, use your own empirical senses, marry them to a bit of understanding that omission of context, truncated quotations, and a re-arranging of chronology can make a difference in how a narrative is read, and don’t let yourself be fooled by what is clearly a hit piece.
I have to agree with Steve in one respect…if Israel has no intention of invading Lebanon then what they are doing is pointless.
But they are going invade…probably today or tomorrow. IMHO.
Noah: Not trying to be contrarian, but I don’t think what the Israelis are doing is pointless—yet. I still don’t think they will invade. But they might.
– It’s that pesky “Celiphate” thing and an operating policy of “The enemy of my enemy is…” mandate.
– Once the various Tribal groups elliminate the infidels, then they can get back to slaughtering each other. Notice while all this is going on, Sunni’s, and Shi’tes are clawing each others eyes out in Iraq. When you understand the “Strong horse, Weak horse” minset that animates everything in the ME culture then it all makes sense.
“Otherwise, use your own empirical senses, marry them to a bit of understanding that omission of context, truncated quotations, and a re-arranging of chronology can make a difference in how a narrative is read, and don’t let yourself be fooled by what is clearly a hit piece.”
Hmm, my empirical senses tell me that it’s a good idea to stay away from posting sexually loaded rants ‘cause you never know who will cite them and in which contect they will be cited…
But I see your point. Really don’t want to be the umpteenth commenter starting the same ole discussion…
Verc is absolutely correct. The IDF/IAF is shaping the battlefield. Cutting off South Lebanon from resupply/support. Lebanese coastal radar is down.
Does anyone know if Israel has seaborne landing capacity? The arab military mind is very one-dimensional. They have spent the past several years reinforcing their side of the border from attack from the South. What if the IDF landed behind them? heh.
Schwartzkopf pulled a classic encirclement during Desert Storm. It would make me cream myself for all those goat herds to be huddled in bunkers facing South with 2 IDF divisions behind ‘em.
The history of IDF maneuvers has been rife with immobilizing and encircling enemy forces.
I served with a couple of Israeli officers. The dudes reminded me of cold-blooded contract killers. They have definitely had enough. Time to turn ‘em loose.
Oh, Actus? You were trying to find out the meaning of Big Bang’s little comment? Listen friend….If your side’s exposing of secrets, i.e. the financial transactions etc. and the continuing weakening of our ability to handle this war results in another Sept 11 here? You’re gonna have some really, really pissed off well-trained stone killers amongst you.
The word exercises end.
The little psycho, Frisch, whose been posturing at Jeff? Radio silence. ZZZZZZZZZZZZ
I’m not looking for trouble. None of us are. But if we suffer another 9/11 and the trail leads to your door? Some of you will reap a whirlwind. And while you guys have been smearing avacado body balm on each other and having discussions? We’ve been at deer camp. Just sayin’
Now Big Bang, If I misunderstood, correct me. I have a small ego and thick skin.
“Once the various Tribal groups elliminate the infidels, then they can get back to slaughtering each other.”
That would be a smart strategy! But afaik, so far there’s no example in history where arabs could calm down their quarrels long enough to fight a common enemy…
Btw, the commenter’s name only doesn’t show up in Firefox if the field ‘URL’ has been left empty…
You know, I hesitate to say this right after all the Frisching recently, but that may be one of the dumbest things I’ve ever read.
Iran/Syria ties go back probably 30 years. Remember, when Israel invaded Lebanon in ‘82, Iran was the only country to send forces to Support Syria.
And it’s hard to be a “control-freak” when you depend on someone for financial support.
Really Gray, this stuff isn’t that hard.
B&B – Dare I say it….Bang on….
Grey – There are numerous examples of inter-tribal assistance against a common enemy, dating all the way back to the original crusades. I’ll leave you to your own consil to do a bit of research, since this aspect of “East versus West” seems to have alluded you.
Crazy. It would almost be like Protestant Anglo Republican America ending up on the same team as Orthodox Slavic Communist Russia. Never gonna happen, gents. EVER.
Almost as ridiculous as America and Japan and America and England ever finding themselves on the same side. Those guys HATE each other.
Well, for one thing, they’re up to their necks in Islamists.
actus: I think you’ll make a great–and I mean great–defense attorney one of these days.
gray: Assad may be a control freak, but who says he’s in control?
Look, folks, if Israel becomes convinced it is fighting for its existence, it will do anything.
Off the top of my head, there’s the 1967 “Six-day war” where Egypt, Syria, and Jordan fought Israel supported by Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Sudan and Algeria. And then there was the 1973 “Yom Kippur War” were Egypt and Syria fought Israel supported by Jordan and Iraq.
“Remember, when Israel invaded Lebanon in ‘82, Iran was the only country to send forces to Support Syria.”
Where did you get that idea? There has been an Iraqui presence in the Bekaa valley in Lebanon(as proven in the book by ex CIA Robert Baer), but where’s evidence that this was in support of Syria and not as reinforcement for the shia part of the population? This doesn’rt sound convincing.
Of course theres another layer to the whole situation, in this poarticular instance, since Syria, and Iran, are both “using” Hezbullah/Hamas as surrogates in a proxy war. But nontheless, they are all definately in concert.
“Off the top of my head, there’s the 1967 “Six-day war†where Egypt, Syria, and Jordan fought Israel supported by Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Sudan and Algeria. And then there was the 1973 “Yom Kippur War†were Egypt and Syria fought Israel supported by Jordan and Iraq.”
Then you’ll surely remember that the arabs lost those wars because they couldn’t reach a consent on a common strategy. Divided they fell.
Tom – You forgot Russia….
“But nontheless, they are all definately in concert.”
Hmm. You would say that someone who is simply delivering the instruments is in concert?
What else is new. And what is your point? That Syria and Iran suck individually and will suck together as allies? That they are doomed to wicked ass-battery?
Yep, we’re way ahead of ya, chief.
Grey – No one commented on it’s effectiveness, just the fact they will unite in a common “cause”, irrespective of their supposed religious bent. Now you’re acting like actus.
Enough with the pussyfooting, let’s get it out in the open, Gray:
Is Iran supporting Hezbollah?
Is Syria supporting Hezbollah?
Lemme ask you something, Goss. Since 1948, what have the “Palestinians” made of themselves, anywhere in the world? Since Hezbollah was founded, what have they made of themselves in Lebanon?
Neither has built schools, except for Saudi-funded and guided bigot-factories, They’ve built no industry, no infrastructure, in spite of billions and billions in foreign aid. They can’t even feed themselves. And when they are handed such things on a plate they destroy them and squat in the wreckage. They are the epitome of Gibbon’s condemnation of the barbarian tribes who conquered Rome, “…they have no idea what to do with it. They must destroy it out of sheer embarrassment.” But they can stockpile guns, and rockets, and pay lavish bounties to homicide bombers.
Can you name one benefactor who reached out to the Palestinians or Hezbollah who they haven’t turned on? Ask the Jordanians, or Moroccans or the Lebanese or the Kuwaitis.
You are not defending a culture. Many of these “Palestinians” only migrated to the area before 1948, drawn by the calls of Arab religious leaders to share in the spoils when the Jews would be driven into the sea, as the whole world expected to happen. You are defending bandits and barbarians and somehow claim to be expecting a civilized outcome from it. You argument is either ill-thought-out or dishonest, but there is no positive outcome to embracing it.
What, exactly, would sound convincing?
The IRG organizes Hezbollah in 1982 and their biggest support comes from Syria. That seems to invalidate your premise.
“That Syria and Iran suck individually and will suck together as allies?”
Ack. But that’s not my point. Scroll up, I stated that there are most probably no orders flowing from Teheran to Damscus. Hell, the arabs never really were able to unite under a common command, why should they have become smart now? Makes no sense.
– China has now aggreed to sign on to the UN resolution in “condemning” the Missle launches of North Korea. Insiders are saying China was really furious with Kim Ill Sun.
Using one of the Lefts favorite meme’s against them:
“The Roosters coming home to roost”?
Your quote:
I gave 2 examples where “arabs” were able to “calm down their quarrels” and fight a common enemy. It is history. Undisputable.
The fact they got their asses handed to them by Israel isn’t remotely the point.
I think what the guy is saying that provide s.o. with materials is not the same as being responsible let alone in concert with that person.
The US e.g., gives Israel a lot of aid and material but the US doesn’t control Israel.
The premise is that there is a Syrian-Iranian-H&H conference call in progress plotting all these actions in concert. I doubt it.
As for Palestinians, I have known a lot more Jews than Arabs but I have known some Arabs and some Palestinians, too. They’re OK.
“The IRG organizes Hezbollah in 1982 and their biggest support comes from Syria. That seems to invalidate your premise.”
The Syrian leadership are alewites, enemies of the sunnis. The shiites of Iran are enemies of the sunnis, too. Both supported Hezbollah. But where is evidence of any cooperation between the two? Both have their own motives for their actions, but neither would receive orders from the other side. That’s just one bridge too far.
Uh Gray, you do know that Iran isn’t arab, don’t you?
And you are conviently conflating “taking orders from” and “uniting under a common command”. Not that it matters, I’m sure.
“I gave 2 examples where “arabs†were able to “calm down their quarrels†and fight a common enemy.”
K, my statement was overly broad. But Jeff did claim that Assad receives orders from Teheran, and your own examples show that even in open war, arabs didn’t unite under a common command.
Grey – Syria, and Iran are backing and supplying H&H. With the firing of the Iranian missle, into Israeli territory, a feat that the Hezbullah forces can not accomplish without direct assistance from Iranian technicians, the lid is off what everyone already knew. You’re a day late and a dollar short. Take the Lefty counter propaganda waffling some where else.
You may doubt it, Steve, but Iran sent national security adviser Ali Larijani to Damascus Wednesday, and Assad doesn’t seem to be calling the shots.
“And you are conviently conflating “taking orders from†and “uniting under a common commandâ€Â.”
You receive orders from someone of your under his command. Where’s the conflict?
The Yom Kippur War kicked off in 1973 through loose cooperation with Egypt (very Sunni, thank you very much) and Syria.
Which one is stronger? Before you ask, it ain’t Syria.
BTW Grey. Maybe the Left didn’t get the memo. More than 70% of the Lebanese want Hezbellah the hell out of their country. Their own words, not mine. Try visiting a few Lebanese blogs sites, if you can handle it. Might be a little dis-illusing for you though.
So much for your earlier statement then:
-disillusioning that is
“With the firing of the Iranian missle, into Israeli territory, a feat that the Hezbullah forces can not accomplish without direct assistance from Iranian technicians, the lid is off what everyone already knew.”
Iranian rocket? Cannot be fired without iraninan technicians? Where did you find that info? At ‘Atlas shrugs’?
Jeff: All we can do is follow a very fluid situation with best guesses. BTW, your updates are first rate.
Hey Gray, what’s the size of the engine on those goalposts of yours?
gray: Yahoo?
Syria: Leadership alewite, leading a secular state, because the majority of the population is sunni. You don’t have to believe me, google for yourself.
But you don’t believe that Assad would risk his reign to be threatened by giving too much room and influence to sunni religious leaders, no?