From the WaPo:
Two U.S. soldiers missing since an attack on a checkpoint last week have been found dead near a power plant in Yusifiyah, south of Baghdad, according to U.S. officials, and Iraqi officials say the soldiers had been tortured.
Maj. Gen. Abdul Aziz Muhammed-Jassim, head of operations at the Iraqi Ministry of Defense, said the soldiers had been “barbarically” killed. U.S. officials would not confirm or deny that the men, who were identified Monday as Pfc. Kristian Menchaca, 23, of Houston and Pfc. Thomas L. Tucker, 25, of Madras, Ore., had been tortured by their captors.
“Coalition forces have in fact recovered what we believe to be the remains of our two soldiers,” said Maj. Gen. William B. Caldwell IV, spokesman for U.S. forces in Iraq, at a Baghdad news conference.
Caldwell said the bodies were found Monday night after dark but were recovered early Tuesday because of concern of makeshift bombs around the bodies.
This is horrific news—but that doesn’t mean it comes without instructions for how properly to grieve.
For instance, if you are a supporter of the Bush plan to fight terrorism, you are allowed to express regret over the death of these soldiers—but sadly, you lack the moral authority to be outraged over the barbarity of their killing, or the fact that the two soldiers were tortured and their remains booby-trapped. Because you surrendered that right the moment you pledged your support to an administration that would allow prisoners of war to be “humiliated”—interrogated by topless women, splashed with fake menstrual blood, lied to, made to strip naked, shown pictures of Jackie Mason, etc.—not to mention, an administration that is listening in on your grandmother’s phone calls and simply won’t support gay marriage, no matter how much Andrew Sullivan demands it! In short, you practically slaughtered these soldier yourselves.
And of course, because you were willing to torture your own troops, it follows that there is ample reason to believe that in response to the next terror attack against Americans, you’ll support US soldiers abducting and torturing Muslims, then leaving their bodies festooned with explosives near public utility plants. Rumsfeld would happily do it himself, of course, but he’s too busy losing the war in Iraq and being an all around arrogant prick to his “Old Europe” betters.
But make no mistake: had U.S. military guards not flushed Korans down Gitmo toilets (I know, I know. But let’s pretend they did), these two soldiers would have been treated in accordance to the Geneva Convention. For instance, Nick Berg’s head was only asked its name, rank, and serial number once it was sawed from its body by a now-dead terror leader who was practically invented by the US; and Daniel Pearl’s head is still being fed three meals a day and allowed to play ping pong and go for nice long walks around the terror compound in the wilds of Pakistan, if you can believe the glowing reports from Human Rights Watch. So don’t you go believing any of this garbage, which is likely just empty bravado—and doesn’t express how al Qaeda really treats its captives. To whom they provide dates and sesame candies, and women with sinfully painted toenails who dance for them like Salome.
Remember: “as ye sew, so shall ye reap.” So no more talking bad about Islam, okay? Or else whatever you get, you deserve—and don’t you dare bitch about it, either, because you started this the moment you were born in the belly of the Great Satan.
Unless you voted for Kucinich or Kerry, or you think same sex marriage is a Constitutional right. In which case, you’re free to put on your hairshirt and act remorseful while gleefully pointing the finger elsewhere.
(h/t STACLU; good roundups here , here, and here; see also, Captain’s Quarters, QandO, LGF, and OTB)
****
update: Sullivan really is better than you. Just ask him:
I doubt whether even Donald Rumsfeld will describe what has been done to two young American soldiers as a “coercive interrogation technique.” But you never know. Some people wonder why I remain so concerned about torture, and the surrender of our moral standing with respect to this unmitigated evil. Maybe the news of captured, tortured and murdered Americans will jog their conscience. Or maybe it will simply reinforce the logic of torture-reciprocity endorsed by Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Gonzales. As usual, complete silence from Instapundit. Almost radio silence from the Corner, except for the torture-advocate, Mark Levin, who is urging reciprocal atrocities. Give him points for consistency. And so the cycle of depravity and defeat deepens …
Does anybody really wonder why Andrew Sullivan remains “so concerned about torture, and the surrender of our moral standing with respect to this unmitigated evil?”
Because somehow I doubt that. Instead, I think it is fairly obvious that Sullivan remains concerned with how many self-satisfied morality chits he thinks he can accumulate by railing against something he refuses to define in any way that is not completely fluid and subject to his own peculiar ideas about what is permitted and what is not.
Anyway, Professor Bainbridge—no proponent of the Bush policy on “torture”—responds.
(h/t Allah)
Just when you think Andrew Sullivan can’t go even deeper into hyperventilation overdrive…. does even he believe what he says anymore?
Tortured? They could tell from the bodies that their captors had forced them to listen to rap music?
Got it. So because the Koran doesn’t fit in the toilet, and because some prisoners were only humiliated and not tortured, we forget about all the prisoners who were (I’m not going to link to photos, but I’m sure you’ve all seen the visible blood in them).
I’m getting pretty good at speaking 6gun, no?
Anti-americanist clap-trap and fuckheadery in 3…2…1…
Damn it, sooooo close…
Okaley Dokaley, jack-off, name one person tortured by Americans?
Just one.
Name One Fucking Person.
Now watch the Kos kids use the death of these men to further their fng cause. Sad, when US citizens
use the tragic death of our servicemen as propaganda. How far unhinged have these people become? To stop from boiling over, I just pray for the families of the dead, and hope they can celebrate the life of those lost, rather than dwell on the loss. God bless them….
And what happened to the soldiers who perpetrated what you saw in the photos you’re talking about?
Care to guess if the same will happen to whoever killed these soldiers?
See where there might be a difference between us and them?
And screw the Koran. Bible, too. I have no time for concern about stupid mythologies.
VIA LGF:
A commentor on DailyKOS:
“The bodies of the two captured U.S. soldiers were found in Iraq – bearing signs of “barbaric torture.â€Â
How quaint.”
Can we question their patriotism now?
Good call, TODD.
Any instructions if we care that their remains’ arrival at Andrews be filmed?
And how is same sex marriage supposed to make the extremists any happy?
You forgot Matt Maupin, Jeff.
Not your fault; the press outside of his home town has, too.
My prayers go out to the families of these brave soldiers.
And may their torturers receive equal MSM /World condemnation that the fake US torturers received.
IGNORE ANUS
TW: It’s my only wish today.
Ooh, good point. That might point out another difference between us and them. Some on our side just proclaim loudly that it’s a bad idea, and vote based on that belief. Those guys would just kill you for it. Thanks for pointing out that we are better than our foes in Iraq and elsewhere in the GWOT.
IP address + Actus + baseball bat + ICU = happiness
Because they quote the AG? Yes.
In Iraq? Or in America? In Knoxville we have Lester Siler.
For some reason, these two deaths have moved me like no other. Maybe it’s the moral bankruptcy of the anti-war folks and their hysteria about horrible America, maybe it’s their refusal to see the barbarians who are currently savaging the world. You need only read page 2 of the WaPo story and its dutiful recitation of American “war crimes” to see what bastards they are. Maybe it’s because I could never be as good and selfless as these two soldiers who offered their lives for the good of Kos and WaPo and the NYT.
Why the f- does the filmed arrival of their bodies make one bit of difference?
I’m a firm believer that those who aren’t willing to handle their news in bits longer than 15-second photo-op blurbs shouldn’t bother. Or vote.
And here on PW, we have actus, et al, who torture logic (if you can call it logic) DAILY.
IGNORE ANUS
Maybe the little freak will go away.
Ignoranus: A person who’s both stupid and an asshole.
I spend most of my days at 20th and H NW, DC.
Don’t go to 20th and H in the NE or SW quadrants. You might get in trouble.
I don’t know what you plan on doing with my IP address though.
It’s the same thing as Rangel’s “bring back the draft” bill—the idea is to force Bush to do something they can use to turn people against him.
“It is an approved maxim in war, never to do what the enemy wishes you to do, for this reason alone, that he desires it.†–Napoleon Bonaparte
(…and it’s the lefties who openly claim to be at war against Bush, so it’s fair.)
Just when you think Andrew Sullivan can’t go even deeper into hyperventilation overdrive…. does even he believe what he says anymore?
This daring young man in his flying machine first goes uppity-up-up, then downdy-down-down. Up—down—flying around—he goes uppity-up-up, then downdy-down-down. Hyperventilation Overdrive and Autorantic Pilot (TM) don’t do ya a lick o’ good if your Moral Compass is disengaged…
No, see…the “film” of coffins arriving with flags draped over them is what every American citizen must be able to witness so that those Bush KKKultists can see what they’ve done to these poor soldiers.
However, seeing a “film” of who actually killed them, knowing how they were killed and under what circumstances, would be too far too inconvenient and muddle the coffin-counting. Either that or let’s open up those coffins and drag those bodies beheaded and booby-trapped under Geneva Convention rules out for everyone’s freedom of information. Or would CAIR get upset?
actus, let me confess something to you.
I want to hurt you. I want to hurt you very bad, in both interpretations. I want you to scream in agony as your bones break and your skin sloughs off, as I hit and punish you.
Why?
Now, I am NOT going to drive to Washington, DC, although I DO have some miles saved up…and you could probably be in the same room as me, sharing a beer, and the most I would do is make fun of you, and throw shit at you, and grab passer-bys and enlist them into my psychological torture of you, and hit on your female friends, and belittle you in front of your significant other, Phil McKraken.
I want to hurt you, you little prick, because you are rude and sanctimonious fuck. Other people might coo (Rick, I’m looking at you; defend this little pip-squeak if you want) that you have worth. Disabuse yourself of that. You do not.
Even when a tragedy occurs, you aim to profit from it. I’ve buried a couple friends, a half dozen plus 2500 more. I hope Jeff bans you. I hope you grow up. But I do not care if you walk out and get hit by a car; you’ve exhausted my graciousness.
Liondude, that’s an excellent idea. We can go minute-for-minute on “coffin-arrival” footage with beheading videos. And, with that “forgotten” footage of people jumping from the WTC.
As much as I am increasing in my healthy dislike of Mr. Sullivan, I’d still save him from a terrorist. He’d not thank me for it, and he would probably insinuate all sorts of terrible things about me – but I would do it anyway.
He is getting a bit more unhinged lately. Maybe he sees the end of all this coming and that he molted his hawk’s feathers too soon. Must be maddening, in a Robert Fisk sort of way.
I just realized I should have said don’t go to NE or SE, not SW.
Verc – you are giving the Telephone Pole exactly what he wants. You must rise above and ignore – it is the only thing that works with his ilk, short of banning – and Jeff has already stated that he will not do so. I happen to agree with Jeff that the ‘Pole does serve as a wonderful example…
Time magazine should be held accountable in the marketplace for Sullivan’s insane, venomous rantings.
He’s not worth the trouble, Verc.
My thoughts and prayers go out to the families of these young men. May the country have the courage to see the fight through so that their sacrifice will not have been for nothing. May their effort result in a free and prosperous Iraq. May the families know that most Americans do not take these losses lightly, that we grieve with them, and that we are thankful that they chose to live lives of selflessnes.
Andrew Sullivan is an amoral whiney little bitch who, in a just world, would be openly mocked by small schoolchildren wherever he goes.
I have to agree Verc. I understand your anger and it is warranted, yet there’s no guarantee that your talk of doing violence didn’t give the little gerbil a 4-hour boner.
You sound very angry at Actus. Just think, if you all had listened to Actus from the beginning, all of those people would be safe and sound at home. If you start listening now, maybe you can help prevent the inevitable deaths to come. Of course, I understand your investment in your denial is too great to be overcome by your concern for those strangers’ lives. Sad.
O’Brien, if you don’t get the “quaint” reference, I suggest you Google “quaint,” “geneva convention,” and, oh, say, “alberto gonzalez.” And maybe Wikipedia “irony” while you’re at it
Lovely, Verc; your “graciousness” will be missed. But I’m going to go on a limb and say your ass won’t be pounding anyone until at least a year, when you’re an upperclassman in high school, so chill. Actus isn’t “rude and sanctimonious,” he just understands what he’s talking about. And you don’t, so you misinterpret bare competence as arrogance. Stay in school, kid. Eventually even you will learn something.
NEWSFLASH: Actus is the spawn of Fred Phelps. He no doubt learned the tactic of using dead American servicemen to further his own partisan desires at his Daddy’s knee.
What a piece of work is [this] man.
Turing Word: word, as in, word.
I think it is safe to say, were policies promoted by Actus followed, there would be none.
Now, now Verc.
Actus is pretty harmless, and he could probably pass for sane next to most of his batshit-crazy friends in Cyberspace.
It’s a pity he never contributes anything but puerile non-sequiturs, can’t formulate a reasoned argument for anything he apparently believes in, and shows his gratitude for our host’s saintlike indulgence by taking a crap in Jeff’s front yard each and every day, but ultimately that’s a reflection his lack of maturity and class.
I’m afraid he is beyond our help, whether lovingly administered by daily floggings with the clue-bat, or the more traditional Louisville Slugger variety…
Lots more dead American civilians, though, is my guess.
david:
None?
You can’t be serious, can you?
Judging by the sudden troll flux, I do believe the left is really pumped up by these murders.
Maybe someday they’ll realize what they’ve become.
You sound very angry at Actus. Just think, if you all had listened to Actus from the beginning, all of those people would be safe and sound at home. If you start listening now, maybe you can help prevent the inevitable deaths to come. Of course, I understand your investment in your denial is too great to be overcome by your concern for those strangers’ lives. Sad.
I’m not angry at Actus. He is what he is. Just think, if we listened to all the appeasers in the last 100 years, just imagine what the world would be like?
Peace in our time, man , PEACE in our time.
David, that is a remarkably ignorant thing to write, ignorant to the point that further argumentative engagement is pointless. For future reference, channeling Sean Penn from Team America: World Police is not a sign of seriousness.
Turing Word: why, as in, if you don’t know why, you better ask somebody.
You’re just pulling it out of your rear, now.
Sure. You bet. And what’s a few thousand more raped and murdered pre-teens among old friends?
Good plan that. Very humanitarian in nature. Act now and you can choose to ignore the blatant murderous tyranny with or without the aid of alcohol.
And doesn’t this beg the question – what policies, actual recommendations, has actus ever offered? My general experience of actus is snarky non-sequiturs (see LagunaDave comments, above).
“Remember, Bull Connor was a Democrat” is vintage actus.
Deutsche sprechen dead Americans most likely.
If only we could get our soldiers to carry flowers, instead of guns. Can you imagine what a force for love and harmony they could become? Platoons for Peace. I’m gonna go braid flowers into my hair right now.
Amoral assholes?
“as ye sew, so shall ye reap.â€Â
Is that a cross-stitch, or a chain-stitch?
SB: part
and parcel
What are you talking about?
One would presume Actus believes we should not have engaged Iraq militarily in 2003, and we should not continue to leave our troops in their current impossible position. Those policies.
I agree with David
I’m curious, since I’ve run out of stuff to pull out my rear – how many terrorist incidents against American non-military targets have occurred, say, post-9/11 compared to pre-9/11?
Now explain how the reduction in post-9/11 correlates but has no casuation-based link with American military efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan. Seriously.
And this discussion ignores the strategic benefits of a stable, Democratic Iraq. Or an Iraq with Hussein and sons at the helm. Or the humanitarian benefits to the Iraqis in general.
Right on David! Who are we to attempt to impose freedom and democracy on people who are clearly unable to grasp the concept?
But one would never know, because anus never takes a position.
I’ve given some advice. Like the people who wanted plans for turning Somalians into hamburger meat. I gave them the advice that that doesnt’ need a plan so much as bloodlust.
Well, that was constructive.
David, honey, if you really believe that RTP has the secret to ending all violence everywhere, forever, please enlighten us. How will this work? What do we need to do?
Wait, this doesn’t involve billions of gallons of Jonestown Kool-Aid, does it?
Well I’ll be damned. David really was born yesterday!
Must have missed those comments – but I’m convinced you’re providing the comments in their proper context.
Yeah, if we could just buy the world (Osama, Saddam, Zarkman, etc) a socially-responsible cola beverage, I’m sure we could teach them to sing along with us. In perfect harmony…
Anyway, those soldiers were KIA in the line of duty, period. If we treat acts of barbarity, torture, execution, etc by our enemies as somehow worse than other casualties, it only empowers and encourages them to commit more atrocities. This kind of savagery is the defining feature of our enemies, and we should not be shocked or outraged when they prove it once more.
I’ve given some advice. Like the people who wanted plans for turning Somalians into hamburger meat. I gave them the advice that that doesnt’ need a plan so much as bloodlust.
No Actus, they meant advice for – you know- actual issues. No tit-for-tat hyperbole.
david is spoofing. I’d bet his life on it.
Ahh, screw it, I’ll send this off anyways, for public consumption. Anything that mentions ‘love-pump’ can’t be half that bad.
Point is that I am not surprised to see brilliant fuckheadery where I look. Just disappointed. Oh, and email me if you want to hear the rest of it; I’ve got the pictures. You’ve been a baaaaad girl… heh.
Iraq, pre invasion. You know the prince-pedophile kite flying paradise. Just be sure to stay away from the mass graves if you know what’s good for you. Like CNN did.
Oh and actus, if it goes for more than 4 hours, consult a physician immediately.
Who Cares? The guy has the worlds worst case of BSDMADS (Bush Support of Defense of Marriage Act Derangement Syndrome).
The only thing that’s gonna make the “extremists” any happy is to impose sharia law on the whole world. Then they will be way happy than they are now. Way, way happy.
How same sex marriage figures into the equation I’ll let you figure out. Hint: Jeff was satirizing leftist douchebag views (like for instance…oh I don’t know…your very own) about moral authority and the proper responses to the news of this latest affront.
I have noticed that you have a fetish about the photos and video of the coffins being made available. Here we have another quintessential lefty demand. He’s too cheap to go online or lazy to get off his ass and get some jihadi head chopping porn to jack off to so he demands that the government provide him pictures of the soldiers coffins. Why don’t you get yourself a copy of Jugs or something like the rest of us, fucking pervert.
How about those names, Jack Roy? Whatcha got?
Who have Americans tortured?
Were you people really afraid of Iraq? Of Osama Bin Laden? Do you believe those people present some sort of threat to the US on par with WWII Germany vis-a-vis the rest of the world? Or cold war USSR to the US? How weak and fragile do you think we are? It’s really quite pathetic the lengths you will go to avoid admitting ou were wrong? I mean really…
I see the rear from which you all pull this stuff remains impressively well stocked. I’d guess you people have been at this non-stop for a couple of years now. Doesn’t it get tiring?
I had a friend confess to me last Friday that he wanted the dead soldier count to grow drastically so it would turn more people against the Iraq war. I told him I was glad he finally said it out loud but that his desire for soldiers to be killed for his political points was both pathetic and disgusting and against everything he says he is for in this world.
He seemed surprised that he allowed himself to say it out loud. He even looked around to see if anyone else in the restaurant could hear him.
I think I’m still in shock from the experience.
Tell me you composed yourself long enough to kick him in the balls.
So if I, say, punch you in the face, you would classify my likely emotional state as afraid rather than angry. I see.
My advice to you is to stay away from women. It’s hard enough figuring them out when you can tell one emotion from another, and in your case, well, lets just say your likely to get hurt.
David does this ring any bells?
I guess beating to death and torturing to death are different, in some way, but here ya go.
I’m not very happy about it, but the dead guy is probably even less happy. I don’t think we’re over there setting up dungeons right and left, but neither do I think we’ve been entirely free of bad behavior.
Just an idea that popped into my head when jeff was wondering whether our media would show any beheading or torture videos of these poor guys.
Some guy did file for a FOIA request. And under some circumstances you as a FOIA requester do have to pay . But I thought the old practice was not that the government provide the pictures, but that the media be allowed to make their own.
Oh, it gets plenty tiring, all right.
And there’s the crux.
Howard Dean, Murtha, Jack Roy and david – when they heard those men were tortured they all said “THIS IS GREAT!!”
“as ye sew, so shall ye reap.â€Â
well, i wuz checkin’ to see who the seamstress wuz, jeff or kos, and guess what?
dailyKos is down.
tant pis.
Monica,
You can him my e-mail and have him send me a message saying just that. Or, I’ll e-mail him my work phone number. He might as well get up the gumption to tell it to me, or any other soldier.
Yes, slart, but if you were to compare our average behavior with those that we are fighting, I am sure you would be able to differentiate correctly based on the facts. In addition, I bet you could tell us what the likely outcome would be for one of ours who tortured and one of theirs. In other words, you still seem to be sane. Or less drunk anyway.
No, I didn’t kick him in the balls, but I did call him out on the hideousness of this desire and the blatant hypocrisy of his position. I also informed him of some of the actual facts of the Iraq situation – i.e. – the number of civilians dead, what has been accomplished, etc. I also explained to him that he a bad case of BDS and that it clouds his judgment and that he needs to heal himself.
I must admit, it’ll be a while, if ever, before I’m able to hang out with him again.
That’s odd. We lose 200 Marines a year to driving and boating accidents alone.
I’ve met three Marines that survived plane crashes, knew eight that autorotated from a crash to a hard landing, had one of my instructors at FREST die in a V22 crash, and had a recruit in my battalion die from heart failure in boot camp. All of that BEFORE the war; actually before 9-11.
And we actually lost more soldiers under Clinton per year than under Bush. Odd that. One being in peacetime and one in war.
Maybe Clinton was a worse failure at peace than Bush is at war?
How many US cities did the Germans bomb?
But anyway, suppose you are right. Suppose AQ and Saddam were not a serious threat to the US. Do you think that’s because they didn’t wish us any harm? Or because they hadn’t acquired the means to inflict it?
If OBL and Saddam were not a threat to the US (yet) then are you suggesting we should have waited until they *were* to deal with them? You know, let them get, say large quantities of biotoxins, nerve gas, fissionables, etc, to make it a fair fight?
Wait a second, what happened to WMD’s, terrorist ties, mobile bio weapons labs (with UAV’s 45 mins away), saving the Iraqis from the tyrant, spreadin’ freedom and democracy, Middle East stability, etc.?
And, by the way, when did Iraq “punch us in the face”?
Bullshit. “Showing the coffins” isn’t something that just ocurred to you, it’s a theme you’ve raised on many occassions.
Why don’t you shut your appeasing piehole for at least a day out of respect?
Wait a minute … you’re the asshole who shat all over the Memorial Day thread, aren’t you?
Never mind then. It’s obviously more than anyone could expect from you.
TW: Don’t mind actus, he’s just doing what’s natural for him.
That’s going to make the ball-kicking thing tough.
You do owe him one.
Shits: All the freedoms you enjoy have been won over enormous odds and paid for in someone else’s blood. Places like the United States are not born ex nihlo. Someone, somewhere, has made an incredible sacrifice so you have the freedom to lay about being hateful, mendacious, ungrateful, disrespectful, arrogant and seditious.
You and your fellow-travellers are not worth one drop of Menchaca and Tucker’s blood, not one atom of one drop of their blood. You can have your enslaved peace, your peace that smells of shackles and the graveyard. And you can go fuck yourself.
tw: fact
Major John –
Sorry, can’t provide you with the info. I haven’t even mentioned this to anyone I know – not my husband, any of our mutual friends, no one. I guess my hope was that I could fix his insanity with reason, logic, and debate, but the truth is, he’s probably too far gone to help now.
Verc, you definitely win the Sofa Kingdom today. What is it with pro-war conservatives that causes you guys to place so much weight on irrelevant criteria? I’ll cop to it: I don’t know any names (other than the link to the Abed Hamed Mowhoush story). That’s because (a) I don’t remember every name I’ve ever read, but especially (b) the identities of the people being tortured aren’t kind of being withheld from the public, dumbass.
Let me ask you something, Verc. Are you really saying that Americans haven’t tortured prisoners in the last five years? If so, by all means, let’s get this on record.
Moron.
You could always send him a Kick-In-The-Balls-O-Gram. I’ll chip in if it’s too dear.
Grr… that should be ”are kind of being.”
Are you just running on pure emotion now? I’m not sure where you are going with this, but I’m sure it must make sense to you in some way. But tell me, what does any of this have to do with the Saddam government raping and murdering pre-teens in the thousands as an alternative to dead US soldiers?
Intentional ignorance or just too invested in your version of reality to be able to take a complete stock of the situation. I’ll give you 3, because I’m feeling generous.
1) Tried to murder a former US president.
2) Gave safe haven to a terrorist who murdered a wheelchair bound American Jew.
3) Tried to wipe out US pilots in the no fly zones by firing SAMs at them at a fairly steady clip.
There are, of course, other specific acts which can be equated to punching America in the face, but why not let these percolate in that little noggin of yours a bit before you go for more?
What is that supposed to be? You just make stuff up and call it an argument? That’s weird.
Jack Roy – by whom would you rather be held prisoner ; the US armed forces, or the Iraqi Freedom Fighters?
Certainly mistakes have been made by the US, because no one is perfect. But, our mistakes are not institutionalized. Or celebrated. Or glorified by children.
Not good enough, Slart. If I get in a fight, that’s a fight. If someone gets beaten, that’s assault. Abu Ghraib was abuse.
I just want ONE example of torture, just one.
I can order that for you. You want the Steel Toe or the Pele?
I’ve lost a couple of old friends when they had a brief flash of honesty and revealed similar sentiments.
I can accept having differing views on the war, but when people start cheering for our guys to die, they’ve crossed the point of no return as far as I’m concerned.
Most people probably wouldn’t hang out with someone who openly voiced racist or anti-semitic sentiments, and to me this is not really any different.
Anyway, good on ya’ Monica, for pointing out to your “friend” how far beyond the pale his comments were.
Well, Jack, you did seem kind of certain on the whole torture thing earlier – are you now speaking in terms of probabilities? Incidentally, I do take it that you find the deaths and torture of these two young soldiers horrific and unacceptable under any circumstances, right?
Re: the whole torture thing: there’s rather a lot of pixels devoted to this topic over at Obsidian Wings if you care to read. There have been incidents both in Iraq and Afghanistan; more incidents than I’d want to see. Even one is more than I’d want to see.
I don’t expect everyone to agree with me on the issue of torture, but imagining that it doesn’t exist is simply counterfactual.
Carin, you’re giving old Verc a run for his money. On the irrelevance meter… yup, this one goes to eleven!
Look, as this stunningly obvious point evidently has escaped you, aiming to be better than terrorists isn’t a very high threshold. What, exactly, did you think you were proving by showing that prisoners fare better in U.S. custody than the “Iraqi Freedom Fighters” (I can only guess who you mean by that, as I haven’t heard of that organization before).
Sad but true. Fluff is pretty much all the “new technologies” are about.