The “reality-based community” at the Daily Kos continues to push the claim that the US was “caught” using “chemical weapons” in Fallujah—a claim that they fail to disabuse themselves of even after repeated evidence to the contrary. Central to their charge is the documented use, by US troops, of White Phosphorous, which, while certainly chemical—and often a weapon—is not a chemical weapon. And yet today’s Kos headline reads like this:
“US Army Admits Use of White Phosphorus as Weapon by Steven D
Wed Nov 09, 2005 at 02:48:58 PM PDT
(From the diaries. Let’s see them deny this shit nowâ€â€kos)
John Cole, who has twice now debunked this claim, is exasperated:
I really do not know what is motivating these people to continue to make these claims other than a hatred of the war in Iraq that runs so deep they are willing to say anything, including launching their own careless artillery salvos of outright falsehoods intended to bring down the evil Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld neo-con cabal, but tragically scoring only collateral damage—the reputation of this country and our military.
A military composed of troops, I might add, who are only doing their jobs and using the weapons they are provided, trained, and authorized to use.
[…] it galls me to no end that Kos, a former artilleryman who claims to know something about the military and claims to car about our troops, continues to support this nonsense.
HOW DARE YOU QUESTION THEIR PATRIOTISM, WARMONGER!
Wake up, John. For several years, these people have been testing the water, trying to gauge the size of the lies they can get away with. Unsurprisingly, they’ve come to realize that, if they all simply insist on the “truthfulness” of a given lie of their own creation and marketing, that little piece of the greater war narrative will, with the help of a compliant media, slowly ossify into “fact”—or at the very least, will dig beneath the skin of settled history and fester there, constantly picked at by the conspiracy theorists and fantasists who stroke their own egos by pretending to know more than the surface reveals.
If the Wilson and Clarke scandals taught the left anything, it is that there are no real consequences—at least to their side—for making bad-faithed charge after bad-faithed charge. Hell, even Dan Rather is sticking to his story. And yesterday, the Senate minority leader went on TV and essentially accused the Vice President of the United States of treason—with absolutely no evidence, and after a recently completed special prosecutor’s investigation exonerated him.
Reid went on to claim that that investigation concluded precisely the opposite of what it actually concluded (no one was indicted or charged with outing anyone)—yet Reid’s remarks were met with near universal approval from his fellow travelers on the left. Where were the angry newspaper op-eds denouncing such obvious falsehoods issuing from the leading Senate Democrat? Where is the outrage?
Sorry if I can’t share your sudden epiphany, John. And it seems to me that your commenters—who on whole are as intellectually dishonest a bunch as there are in the blogosphere—would have taught you these lessons long ago.
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Much more, from QandO and the Daily Ablution.
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update Michael Moynihan has more here.
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update 2: A commenter at Cole’s site notes:
New NBC poll just out says 57% think BUSH intentionally misled Americans in the run up to the Iraq war. That is a devastating number. Devastating.
Note here that no consideration is given at all to whether or not the claim is true — it clearly is not, or else every other western world leader, including many Democrats who are now cynically distancing themselves from their own forceful speeches (We are too stupid to lead! Look how gullible we are!) are liars, as wel—but rather what is being tacitly celebrated here is the ability of those who are misrepresenting events to convince others about their misrepresentations.
They are proud of this—as if they’ve just now discovered that truth really doesn’t matter—even after years of making that claim.
Guess they never thought it’d take. Now that it has, they are simply GIDDY over the possiblities!
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update 3: Pandagon reviews my post and writes:
Yeah, by all means don’t call it a chemical weapon if that’s not the proper technical term. Lord knows that’s an important distinction. Like the difference between a dart and an arrow. Or abuse and torture. But let’s not stop there.
It’s apparently also quite important that using these devices against enemy combatants is legal and the army may have had no intention of striking of civilians. That may be so. They may not have intended to hit any civilians. Maybe they just displayed a reckless disregad for the presence of those civilians in these urban combat zones. That’s quite possible. But that’s not exactly taking the edge off, you know? But when all else fails, there’s the whole “you don’t support the troops” card to pull.
So to recap:
1) The distinction between legal weapons and illegal weapons is not important
2) The incidental deaths that may have been caused in the course of the legal use of a sanctioned weaponry during urban warfare is a reason to suggest repeatedly and disingenuously that the troops have engaged in illegal activity.
3. I am engaging in hairsplitting and am therefore an ideologically blinded warmonger because, well—war isn’t healthy for children and other living things.
Sorry, but this is the thinking that one expects from an earnest high schooler. It presupposes its author cares more about civilian casualties than do those of us who support the war—and it attempts to trade on that self-important righteousness to justify a dishonest attack on US troops.
The ends justify the means and all that.
It’s sad—and it simply furthers the point of my post: that many on the left have decided objective truths are too slowmoving as a means toward directed political activism. And so they are perfectly within their rights to dissemble and distort in the name of their own presumed rectitude.
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update 4: Still think intentional and inflammatory dissembling doesn’t really matter much beyond the ken of domestic power politics?
Hold on to your fucking seats.
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update 5: Some pointed thoughts from Mike at Cold Fury:
We can reasonably argue over intelligence failures and what to do or not do about them. We can reasonably argue over plenty of other things. But to stubbornly insist that the whole rationale for war with Iraq was some kind of diabolical and intentional Bush deception is simple and transparent foolishness, ideological pornography of a particularly cheap and unworthy sort. It has been peddled all along either by ill-informed dupes, desperate political hacks seeking any traction they can get for their party, or guileful radicals who not only have no concern whatever for America’s best interests but are in fact openly hostile to them. The 9/10 Democrats, floundering about for some way to conceal their blinkered antiwar and antimilitary lethargy in some sort of packaging that can remain palatable to the majority of post-9/11 America, will come to regret embracing it.
Lordy, but that must sting.
Here, read this, too.
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(11/22 update) Response to Think Progress and Seeing the Forest here
Kos and Reid and that bunch are just fucking evil.
There, I said it. All they care about is political power and they will say or do anything to get it. What depresses the hell out of me is how many complete idiots our educational system has cranked out that believe this horseshit.
The US Military doesn’t care about civilians, they used white phosphurous in Fallujah, that proves it.
What kind of a complete moron thinks that is the worst we could have used if we didn’t care about civilians? Do these people truly have no clue of the hell we could have unleashed if all we wanted to do is level Fallujah and save our own?
/rant off
Sorry, but this shit is getting on my last nerve.
tw: filled-> snifter, one
One of John’s commenters:
Kind of begs the quesiton, no? In other words, it becomes a lot easier to believe that Bush lies when he lies so much.
Sigh. I hate people.
That’s about par for the intellectual course over there. Not an assertion made by a conservative they won’t pick to death in bad faith. It’s tiresome. And it is bad for the country. Good faith arguments and disagreements and debates are fine and strengthen a democracy. But lying to win debates is not.
The use of “Willy-Petes” in no way constitutes the use of “Chemical weapons”. But hey it sounds good doesn’t it? One day, I pray that there will be some accountability for these A#@holes to tell the F-ing truth, or be chastised for the lies that they spin. Probably not……..
Precisely. Time’s cover story on Rathergate last year talked about “blue truths” and “red truths,” both of which are tough to beat as Orwellian code words for bad-faith assumptions. But that’s what you’re talking about here, Jeff. “Blue ‘truths.’ “
The more left-wing blogs I read, the more I realize the extent to which bad faith informs their politics. From the Kossacks insisting that Bush lied to feminists asserting that conservatives want to control women to the Indymedia goons claiming that 9/11 was an inside job, there’s a whiff of conspiracy to seemingly everything they believe. I find it really disturbing. Time to take <style.html”>an old chestnut</a> out of the fire.
Sorry, busted link in the last comment. Was supposed to go to:
http://karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/conspiracy_theory/the_paranoid_mentality/The_paranoid_style.html
I’ll take your word for what is happening on Cole’s site. I like John, but his comments section makes my skin crawl. I can’t look in there.
According to the most recent interviews with Judith Miller, a person does not have to prove that what they are reporting as fact actually is. It’s up to us to prove that it’s false. With reporting “ethics” like that all someone has to do is hang onto their story long enough for people to begin to believe it. Then their job is done. It’s sickening.
But if they can stop the soldiers from using “chemical weapons†their side wins. Since even pointy sticks are composed of chemicals.
By definition, every modern weapon, with the exception of a bayonet, is a “chemical” weapon.
Here‘s another vintage (and personal) example of conspiracy-mongering. Note the emphasis Mapes places–wrongly in most cases, please note–on anonymity and the dark hint about vast hordes working “in unison.” How much easier it is to blame one’s failure on a vast right-wing conspiracy than on your own gullible imbecility.
Amd right on cue: coming soon to an Indymedia near you.
They’re just scratching the surface. Know what makes our bombs blow up? Chemicals. EXPLODING CHEMICALS!!1!
HOW DO YOU SLEEP AT NIGHT, CHIMPY BUSHCHEMICALBURTON!?!?!!!!!!!
Its the old addage, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Unfortunately, they see Bush not as a political opponent, but as their enemy. And if there is something that will make him or his policies look bad, they will embrace it. Damn the consequences.
One thing the posters on daily kos love to do is make a joke whenever there is criticism against the US, “why does xxx hate America?”. It is meant ironically and gives them endless posts of amusement.
Well, I can agree with them that the ‘you hate America’ argument can be overused. But that ignores the fact that there are entities that do hate America, and many of them are the very entities they embrace. Hugo Chavez, George Galloway, the minute men of Iraq, Father Saddam weeping in prison, those portraying our troops as perpetual human rights abusers.
If there are lies behind the narrative it is inconsequential because they are exposing a greater truth. And as Jeff said, nobody will call them on it anyway- because I’m sure that would be White House propaganda or slash-and-burn politics.
I vote for about the same number of Democrats as Republicans. But I will never vote for any politician that courts the likes of the Daily Kos diarists.
Nothing more needs to be said, really.
How many here can count some of these guys as friends? I can. Living in Austin, TX (a hell of a town, don’t get me wrong) it just sorta comes with the territory. Truth be told, if this cross-section of my friends had one flaw it would be weapons-grade narcissism.
if they all simply insist on the “truthfulness†of a given lie of their own creation and marketing, that little piece of the greater war narrative will, with the help of a compliant media, slowly ossify into “fact
Compliant? Maybe activist media. Anyway, IOW, say something long enough and loud enough and it becomes True, whether personal gossip or political lies and manipulation. And since all truth is relative, no harm, no foul, as they say.
I say, Jeff and like-minded, you’re fighting the Good Fight on this front.
( / All cliched out- post-modern, post-history and post-irony leaves precious little to work with, but I promise to vote Dem when irony makes a come-back.)
A chemical weapon is comprised of chemicals, obviously. A chemical is something produced by a chemical process. The human body is really nothing more than a complex series of chemical processes. George W. Bush is a human.
Ergo: Bush is a chemical weapon.
Therefore Dick Cheney should be tried for treason and Kofi Annan made supreme ruler of Earth.
This logic stuff is almost too easy.
The naivety of Cole is the key reason I no longer go to his site. He’s somehow proud of the fact he’s an icon to the clueless, reminds me of McCain, the one man bridge between sane and insane.
That he’s shocked that many of his commentators hate the US military with such a passion is rich. They come from the same line of thought that propagated the long standing Communist lie that the US used biological weapons against North Korea. Truth is not their goal.
Look, the U.S. Army said in the March ‘05 article that they used white phosphorus “shake and bake” attacks in the middle of Fallujah, with the aim of driving Iraqis out of their defended positions so they could be attacked by HE rounds.
Now, WP isn’t just some kind of friendly little pelet gun. Its white hot pellets can burn through a tank, and, when that fire is concentrated, it is capable of creating lethal clouds of gas that can kill everyone within 150 meters in all directions. Do the math on that… it’s a circle that spans nearly a quarter of a mile.
If people are upset about this, maybe it’s because the U.S. State Department specifically said that the U.S. only used white phosphorus in Fallujah for illumination. Not for targeting, not for showering the enemy with white hot pellets… and certainly not for creating—intentionally or not—lethal flesh-burning clouds in the middle of a city of 300,000 people.
Admittedly, most of the citizens of Fallujah left, but many didn’t. Infact, the U.S. military refused to let males of fighting age leave the city with their families.
Whether you believe we should use such weapons inside cities or not, why are you not willing to simply say that the government did not tell the public the full truth of how white phosphorus was used in Fallujah, and that their lie has now hurt the reputation of the US, weakened our coalition (especially in Italy), and has hurt the cause of our troops?
Maybe some people are upset because they hate Bush? Republicans? The US? The Military?
No, too easy.
Also, you may want to pay attention to the opinion of this soldier who served at Fallujah, who read the State Department’s denial that I provided him and said:
“I read the link you gave me to the State department and I am quite in awe myself. My only explanation I can think of is that whoever is their PR guy just isn’t too bright or was trying to cover their own asses. I said it once, and I’ll say it again, WP isn’t used for illumination. It’s a weapon, it kills.”
He previously told me that when they want illumination, they use illumination rounds, which are made of magnesium. More light, not all the smoke, less dangerous. Old illumination rounds did use white phosphorus, but they were shot up into the and had a parachute, which allowed them to safely burn without the health risks.
Incidentally, when they want smoke, they use smoke rounds, and when they want targeting, they use tracer rounds. Surprising that.
To my chagrin, I have friends and family members who think this way. Narcicists all? Probably. They’re capable of massive self-deception to protect their fragile, bloated egos. Public and foreign policy are judged overwhelmingly on outward appearances and presumed good or bad intentions. All would probably name their primary flaw to be that they just care too much.
Unfortunately, their only real care is reaffirming to themselves and others their own moral superiority. This tends to reveal itself in overwhelmingly ostentatious displays of humility. I think this is related to the apparent self-hatred that leads them to “blame America first” and preface all judgments with indictments of American flaws. It’s not really self-hatred, so much as a self-conscious desire to appear to debase themselves and their culture in order to make themselves look and feel morally righteous.
Nothing you’ve written suggests this is a chemical weapon. And the use of WP in shake and bake operations—meant to draw the insurgents out—doesn’t seem to me to break with any kind of protocol. These are field command decisions, I suspect, and are intended to win the battle, not inflict mass casualties on civilians (who, from what I understand, were given lots of time to flee Fallujah). As the soldier on Cole’s site pointed out, there are plenty of other weapons that carmelize the skin.
The question is, was the US military trying to leave a phosphorus cloud over the region? Did they intend the targeting and mass murder or civilians?
We shall see, I guess. But it is not a chemical weapon—which is the meme being developed by the left, who want to push the irony that we used “chemical weapons” on “innocent civilians” in our effort to find and destroy chemical weapons.
I clean my bathroom with bleach and ammonia. I use them properly, and I walk out perfectly healthy (and with a sparkly clean bathtub and mirror!). But if I use them improperly, they can emit a lethal cloud of gas. Thus, I don’t mix them.
So WP can be used to emit light, or it can be used to emit lethal clouds of gas. As Jeff said, the question isn’t whether it can be purposefully misused, but whether it was purposefully misused. And there seems to be one side very eager to assume that yes, it was because BUSH used it.
Yeah, because everybody at the State Department knows everything about every weapon used in every battle fought every goddamn day over there. It had to be a deliberate cover-up, nobody ever just makes a damn mistake.
Tell me Kraft, is it cool to be fucking perfect? Or is that what makes you such an insufferable twit?
Jeff, I’m sure you know or have been advised of all this, but since I was in Iraq during the Battle of Fallujah and am a nine year veteran of the U.S. Army, I thought I’d offer a roundup of info on WP.
Yes, it’s a chemical. It’s the same chemical, in a slightly different forumulation, that is found in a tracer round. Phosphorous burns at an extremely high temperature, so much so that a willy pete grenade could be used to destroy commo gear that you don’t want Ali McJihad getting his hands on. Therefore, all the blah blah about it’s signature of destroying flesh but leaving clothing inharmed is completely false. WP burns EVERYTHING! I once saw a demonstration where it burned through a diesel engine block.
I feel that Fallujah is the one place in Iraq where it would have made sense to use WP. It is used in artillery rounds against massed formations, in the traditional mix of “WP and HE (high explosive rounds)” It also has uses against lighter armored vehicles and “dug-in” artilery pieces. Fallujah was the only city in Iraq where the insurgents behaved in some quasi-military manner, moving in squad-sized elements, so WP would make sense.
WP is not a chemical wepaon in the same sense that sarin or VX gas is. It’s a weapon whose power is the yield of a chemical reaction, but not a chemical that reacts with human tissues themselves, such as gas.
And really, if they’re going to get all up in arms about good ol’ willy pete, I pray they never find out about HEAT (high energy anti-tank) rounds. Just mull the phrase “super-heated jet of copper plasma”
I’ve got a DNC source who backs up my claim that John Kerry used white phosophorous to illuminate the dog he was having sex with. That’s a devastating fact. Just devastating.
“Where is the outrage?”
That’s loser talk, JG. *Dole* talk.
White Phosphorous isn’t banned as a chemical weapon. It’s classified as an incendiary device (along with napalm). However, the US has never signed on to Protocol III of the UN Convention for Conventional Weapons which restricts the use of incendiaries. Thus, we’re perfectly legit even if we USED Willie Pete against our enemies…
M1A1 tanks carry WP shells into battle so they can mark targets (and to create smoke screens). You can’t get much more conventional than that…
More info…
St Wendeler
Another Rovian Conspiracy
Thanks, Ian. Now that wonderful image is seared, seared into my memory.
Of course the US uses Chemical Weapons against our enemies. Those would be what I like to call our . . . “soldiers.” They are made of chemicals, after all (see: here), and they do quite a good job of killing our enemies; hence, they are “weapons.” The addition of what some people like to refer to as a “soul” to these chemical weapons in no way limits the US’s ongoing violations of the Geneva Convention by their deployment.
Case closed.
Shit, now I am starting to sound like my Barking Moonbat former law partner.
Because of the Hip-Hoprisy!
Clearly still trying to figure out the damned URL button . . .
Shows that if you keep throwing shit at the wall, sooner or later it starts to stick. Another reason that Bush’s failure to defend himself is inexcusable.
Funny how they’re using a poll number that something is believed as proof of the truth of the underlying matter. This is the scientific logic that prevents Wile E. Coyote from falling when he steps off the cliff until he reads up on gravity.
Oddly, when 40% percent (or something) of the populace believed WMD were found in Iraq, and when 52% of voters elected George Bush, it just proved that the American people were dumb. How’d those retards gets so remarkably perceptive for this poll?
We could limit our weapons to bows and arrows or worse yet, rocks. Chemical free, indeed, but then the left would just get more excited as our casualty count would increase greatly.
I say, bring it on.
White phosphorous, or “Willie Pete” from the WP painted on the rounds, is an illuminator, an incendiary, and a smoke generator. It is used by every army in the world. Consider this Fact One.
Under U.S. law, all WMD are the same. A gas is a germ is a nuke. Chemical weapons are just as much Weapons of Mass Destruction as any other. This is Fact Two.
Putting Facts One and Two together, what we really need is for the Kos Kidz to establish that WP is a chemical weapon. We then point to the extensive stocks of WP rounds kept by the Iraqi Army for use against Kurds and Swamp Arabs, and which they never thought of concealing or carrying off (being sane, even if vile).
et voilà! Massive stocks of Weapons of Mass Destruction Discovered in Iraq! and the entire “Bush lied” / “sixteen words” business goes down the toilet where it belongs.
I hereby offer this essay for your contemplation. Prof. Cipolla (R.I.P., alas, as he may have been the last sane professor at Berkeley) defines “stupidity” as benefitting neither the actor himself nor anyone else. I offer also the referenced exchange on Kos, as well as Mary Mapes’s recent career, as definitive examples of the effect.
Regards,
Ric
Mark-
While I recognize you are slow, working with information you clearly dont understand, using at best second-hand to third-hand reports from dubious sources, and already inclined to believe the worst about the troops laboring to serve BushHitler, I will try to explain this one last time for you.
WP is not a chemical weapon. It is a conventional munition. So conventional, even, that WE OPENLY CARRY IT IN OUR INVENTORY AND PART OF COMBAT LOADS FOR FRONTLINE UNITS.
WP is used for a number of different purposes (as has been repeatedly stated here, but somehow blown right past you each time).
It can be used for screening.
It can be used for marking targets.
It can be used to illuminate areas.
It can be used to dump on people to chase them out of hard to reach areas so you can then rake them with machine gun fire or other munitions.
It can be used to ignite other explosives near the area to kill the enemy.
It can be used to simply kill the enemy.
It can be used to get fire on a target while minimizing damage to surrounding buildings.
IT can be used for all of those reasons, is used for all of those reasons (and probably some I am missing), and guess what? It is completely legal. It may oiffend your delicate sensibilities, but I assure you, getting shot at with a .50 cal machine gun, having your bunker hit with a 120 mm HEAT round, having grenades lobbed at you, having Apaches and Cobras fire rockets at you, or having a 155mm HE round or DPICM and FASCAM scattered around you ain’t much better. And, oh yeah, we supply our grunts with smallarms, all of which fire bullets, which can suck in a big way, too.
The only way it would be illegal to use WP is if they dumped massive quantities of it with the intent to create a toxic cloud (which, given none of our guys were in MOPP 4, our gear to protect against chemical weapons, I find HIGHLY doubtful), or, if we indiscriminately dumped shitloads of it on civilian areas. Mind you, dumping indiscriminate amounts of any ammo on civilians is illegal.
And what do you have to make these scurrilous charges? Some decayed corpses that exhibit little to no signs of burns (which would be in place were that much WP dumped on them) and the word of a proven liar and a hostile Italian media crew.
Color me unconvinced, and you can apologize to the guys you are smearing whenever you pull your fucking head out of your ass. It will make it easier to hear you then.
As a side rule- no more commentary on weapons from people who never fucking spent one day in basic training.
Decomposition produces a discoloration that has the same look. The time between the combat and the photos is about right for that stage of decomposition, too.
I’ve about given up with the constant shit flying from the Libs. I’m at the point now that I can only wish GW comes out and says fuck it, I’m done! If you asshats think you can do a better job, have at it. I’m going to clear some brush and have me a Lone Star.
“And really, if they’re going to get all up in arms about good ol’ willy pete, I pray they never find out about HEAT (high energy anti-tank) rounds.”
Not to even mention sabot….
But see, that’s the whole problem, and guys like Mark Kraft exemplify it pretty well. Start with an accusation that is meant to provoke outrage in some quarters: the US has used chemical weapons! Then just sit back and wait for some government nimrod to mispeak or, worse, blurt out some nonsense about a topic he has no expertise in or knowledge of whateve. Then you can switch the argument to being all about the Bush admin’s “lies.” It’s the ol’ Lefty bait and switch, and with the media backing them all the way, I’d guess they figure to scam themselves a lot of votes from among the ill-informed that way.
Or am I just being too paranoid here?
“Whateve.”
Umm. “R.” Sorry.
As a side rule- no more commentary on weapons from people who never fucking spent one day in basic training.
Now, that’s not fair.
How about “no more commentary on weapons from people who ignore basic physics, chemistry, and biology in favor of magical explanations”?
Because, really, that’s what we have going on here.
Fair enough, Robert.
It is amusing how many things that Mark knows “for a fact” above that simply are outright falsehoods.
Not just smallarms, freakin ASSAULT RIFLES capable of killing women and children.
Over at My Pet Jawa, I was asked this, in regards the conditions of the bodies in the photos they’re citing as proof:
Anyone? No fair going to Jawa and looking at my answer.
But, John! Aren’t you aware that smokeless powder is a CHEMICAL?!?! Bullets are CHEMICAL WEAPONS!!!!
THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!
I feel that using rubber bullits and stun guns would make our militery more humane. I support our troops except if they go to war, especailly since we really need them at home as hurrican helpers because Bush has ruined the world climant.
Perfect c, now if you had just written it all in caps.
Aw, hell. I’ll just give the answer:
Decomposition. “Intracellular and extracellular fluids” are forced from the mouth and nose during decomposition.
I can only guess they expect every corpse to look like it was refrigerated, embalmed, and had makeup applied to it.
I thought that WP had a chemical effect? Of course, I’ve always found it weird that we worry about some artillery shells with poison gas in it but not the deployment of MOABS.
Way back when I used to work gunnery for the big bullets – 203mm/8” artillery.
You recieve a call for fire about a battalion column of vehicles on road X, extending from grid Y to grid Z. Say it’s been spotted by an FO attached to a short company of our tanks and a couple of squads of infrantry. They are undetected, but badly outnumbered.
A slick FDO would check which way the wind was blowing on the battlefield, order a shell-mix, fuze mix mission: two or three rounds of WP to land upwind and several hundred meters on the far side of the target, and a crapload of HE/Quick and HE/VT fired as immediate suppression.
If you use illumination rounds, which are basically bazillion candle power magnesium flares, you light up EVERYTHING. Not good for the undetected friendlies close to the enemy. Selecting WP on the ground beyond the enemy combined with an immediate, uncorrected volley of HE will A) creates a glowing white wall about a hundred meters tall, backlighting everything in front of it for the observing good guys to target, B)prevents the enemy from seeing jack doodly anywhere else because they will be dazzled by the glare, C) prevents the enemy from running away in the direction of the WP smoke because they know that they’ll be cooked if they go that way, and D)panic and disorganize the column due to the huge explosions on the ground and above it, even if the first, uncorrected barrage lands a few hundred meters wide – giving the friendlies on the point a good chance to strike hard and fast first – and then the next barrage WILL be corrected and on target.
Willie Pete has many uses.
Ugly stuff, war. Thank God we still produce people who know how to do it right.
It burns, as in “reacts rapidly with oxygen”. Put it under water and the reaction slows to an unoticeable level—which means claims that it reacts with flesh because of the water in it, but ignores clothing because of the lack of water, are complete bunk.
The Wikipedia article on it (the chemical one, not the military application one) mentions that people who ingest it get a condition known as “Smoking Stool Syndrome”, which suggests it’s not the magical killing chemical the loons are trying to make it out to be.
But it also mentions it’s poisonous, so no matter how neat Smoking Stool Syndrome sounds, don’t try it at home.
1) The distinction between legal weapons and illegal weapons is not important
Oh, I think this post on Kos handles your arguments quite well.
Just as a question, do you really think the issue of whether melting the skin of Arab children is legal or illegal under US law really matters to the people whose “hearts and minds” you’re trying to win? I was under the impression that this “war on terrorism” wasn’t going to be won on the battlefield, but in world (and especially moderate Arab) opinion.
Let me propose a basic rule of thumb. If there is a weapon of which the use on your own civilians would be decried as a horrific and barbaric act of terrorism (and we all know what comments would be made if Al Qaeda exploded WP in an American city), it is a good idea not to use it on civilians elsewhere.
Or do you believe there’s one set of ethics when it comes to killing Americans, and another for inferior peoples?
Did you bother to read any of the other comments—or follow any of the links, Phoenician?
Incidentally, your entire comment begs the question. Well, except for the last part, which is simply shallow and ineffective race-baiting.
Really. I expected more from someone whose comedy stylings have been discussed in the hallowed halls of Congress…
HOLD ON TO YOUR FUCKING SEATS.
John Cole writes:
While I appreciate all these lefties going out of their way to make the point of my post manifest, if I had my choice, I’d just as soon they stuck to the truth and proved me wrong.
The State Department knows as much about military matters as it knows about statecraft beyond screwing baksheesh out of the Saudis…
As an ex-mortar platoon leader, and a qualified battalion NBC defense officer, I can tell you WP is used for incendiary effects and creating smoke screens. Its value against prepared defenses is that the particles tend to “dance” as they combust, and find their way into structures like bunkers and buildings, filling the interior with fumes… thus doing exactly what they did, driving the occupants out.
It is not classed as a chemical weapon in the sense of sarin, VX or any other chemical agent.
I am finally terrified. The truth is a lie, and a lie is the truth.
An older “gent” I talked to today (who is old enough to know better), has competely swallowed the lies of the left and “can’t wait until someone kills that son of a bitch Bush. The fucking Republican liars are getting our kids killed every day”. Huh?
And you know what? If Bush isn’t going to fight this crap, neither am I. I am considered enough of a freak without trying to straighten out people who have swallowed this BS hook, line, and sinker.
What is it the Nazi’s said? Repeat a lie enough, and it becomes the truth? (The bigger the lie, the better).
I hate to say it, but I am scared shitless of the scumbags who are rewriting history (History? They’er rewriting current events!). For a long time I have been uneasy with the Bush administration’s unwillingness to fight back. I am now officially pissed off and TOTALLY disgusted with Bush, who thinks that utter silence is the best way to fight a flood of lies of biblical proportions. WHAT PLANET DOES BUSH LIVE ON? Oh. I know. The planet “God”.
I fought my tail off for Bush, so why is it that I feel he is pissing on my leg? Why is my pant leg wet? For God’s sakes, can’t he even stand up for the truth? Apparently the answer is “NO”. You know, I’m all for God and the truth will out, but how can the truth come out IF NOBODY BOTHERS TO PRESENT IT?
Bush had better have the ultimate “Rovian move” up his sleeve…
disgusted dog
TW: support – not unless somebody gets their shit together.
Willy-Pete? What, are you fuckin’ kidding me?
Great stuff for clearing a bunker. Chemical weapon – well, yeah, I guess so. If you’re an idiot.
Or a dead panda.
SB: same
thing
Good going for all of those moonbats out there. No need to question which side they’re on.
Question their patriotism? No, I deny their patriotism.
I wonder if we used WP in Bosnia? Oh, that would have been BJ Clinton, so that’s OK.
Clever P-to-the-R,
We are dealing with cowards who strap bombs to themselves and walk into crowds of the innocent before detonating them–they hide amongst the women and children and leave bombs by the road to facelessly kill and maim anyone who comes in contact with them. They bomb discos where lovers dance. They cover their faces to avoid identification while they saw the heads off people not remotely associated with the military. They bomb train stations and kill hundreds and promise eager young men that they will be rewarded in the next life for this remarkable cowardice and you think WE are the monsters???
This enemy is unlike any that has ever plagued the world. We are the only ones willing to take on the responsibility to wipe them out. No means we use to do that will be pleasing or polite.
We are dealing with cowards who strap bombs to themselves and walk into crowds of the innocent before detonating them–they hide amongst the women and children and leave bombs by the road to facelessly kill and maim anyone who comes in contact with them.
Really?
Please present your proof that those people in Fallujah under discussion all strapped bombs to themselves and blew themselves up before they were killed by American WP munitions…
You might wanna look up the word “rationalisation” at some stage. You might also want to look a bit closer at the statistics – last I saw, 75% of the bombings were against American troops. The terrorist attacks get the publicity – but an attempt to blow up an American soldier on Iraqi soil is not terrorism.
I frankly wonder why we talk to those folks. It does no good at all. What’s more, they obviously have no intention of arguing any point honestly. As for Bush “defending” himself, I’m not sure it would work all that well. Imagine how the MSM would spin it. What’s more imagine how the “conservatives” at the Corner would react. About the same way they reacted during Katrina. Policy wonks don’t make very good warriors.
Nope, if this battle is going to be fought bloggers are going to have to fight it. And they’re going to have to realize that the folks that inhabit Cole’s site are the enemy. Not an enemy you can shoot, but the enemy all the same. They cannot be trusted or reasoned with or even ignored. They must be fought every day, aggressively and with screaming headlines.
I have heard a number of people complain that we might one day return to the time when each politicain owned his own newspapaer and used it to slander his rivals. We all ready have. It is called the MSM. It belongs to the DNC and it has turned its fire on America, not a politcal party, but the whole country. becuase right now, harming America helps the DNC. If that sounds overly simplistic, tough. the truth oft times is simple. As matter of fact the more simple it is he harder it is to understand sometimes. And as hard as it is to understand the truth is that these folks hate this country. hate it and wish it defeated very, very desperately.
And the only way we will hever defeat them is to point them out for what they are, over and opver and over again.
Not questioning these people’s patriotism is just plan silly, becuase it is wrong. They are unpatriotic. Hell, they’re pro-facist, pro-terrorist and pro-homcide bomber. They are what they are…vile, evil, wretched people. The worst this country has to offer. Zell Miller understood it, and look at all the crap he caught from the folks at the Corner, and their fellow travellers, after he said it.
I’m sorry, but being nice to these folks, and inviting them to your site (ala John Cole) is not the thing to do. They deserve to be belittled and castigated. Refusing to do it isn’t helping the free world one bit.
John, do us all a favor, close down your freaking comments and chase those bastards off. let them spout their crap at KOS and DU.
So Depleted Uranium has fallen out of favor as the preferred scary/illegal/immoral weapon of choice for demonizing the US military?
It’s hard to keep up with how many ways the left can accuse the military of heinous criminal acts all the while professing their undying affection for same.
“We love the troops! Really! Now let’s bring ‘em home so we can try every last one of those baby-burning torture-loving murderous bastards for war crimes.”
So what is it? You got the balls to come out and say what you think this is? Fuck you.
Y’know. Minutemen, revolutionaries, etc.
How so? Per Update 2, they seem to be doing okay so far.
Perhaps it is too simplistic, but I’d buy full page newspaper adds, stick these wild quotes all over them with the html addresses. Do it over and over and over again. Kos, Atrios, Sheehan, anti-war protestors, college professors. Anti-Bush rhetoric, anti-military rhetoric, anti-American rhetoric. The sheer vitriol will amaze people.
When they scream that it is unrepresentative of their party, do it some more. What percentage of the American public has any idea that that guy who was in some news blurb about Fallujah (“Fuck’em”) a year ago is actually still around, and that Democratic politicians are falling all overthemselves to write diaries on his site? Force them to repudiate these people publicly or die with them.
They survive because noone shines the light on their little hate-fests. The mainstream press won’t do it, and Republicans are too cowardly or unaware. You don’t even need to explain why they say what they say, Gramscii, etc, etc. Just put the words out there.
I request that the Phoenician give a thorough exposition on the morality of the action taken by the Iraqi (or Jihadist from elsewhere) who did this…
Monday, July 04, 2005
Fallujah
Camp Fallujah
Al Anbar Province, Iraq
On 23 June 2005, the enemy rammed a vehicle loaded with explosives into a truck carrying our troops, ending the lives of one sailor and five Marines.
The 8th Regimental Combat Team of the United States Marine Corps held a memorial for six fallen comrades.
The attack gained worldwide attention, threatening to turn the memorial into the customary frenzy, so the military banned media-borne cameras from the memorial. The camera-ban resulted in few media attending the service.
Lost in the attack were the following:
LCPL Holly Ann Charette, USMC, of South Kingston, Rhode Island. Holly was born in 1983.
CS1 Regina Renee Clark, US Navy, of Centralia, Washington. Regina was born in 1962.
PFC Veashna Muy, USMC, of Long Beach, California, born in 1984. Veashna’s friends said his parents are from Cambodia.
CPL Carlos Antonio Pineda, USMC, from San Salvador, El Salvador. CPL Pineda was the latest of many people from other countries who died in service to the United States. He was born in 1982.
CPL Chad Wayne Powell, USMC, born in 1983, from West Monroe, Louisiana.
CPL Ramona Magdalena Valdez, USMC, from the Bronx, New York. CPL Valdez was born in 1984.
Vlad–
Phoenician won’t be sticking around to defend her “arguments.” She’s another thumbsucker who’s only happy if she’s surrounded by like-minded leftists. She used to haunt Adam Yoshida’s little site with another half-dozen freaks who acted like they owned the joint. It was disgusting, really. Kind of like a bunch of thugs who take up residence in your living room and start eating your food and drinking your gin.
TMJUtah–
Good to see you posting again. Have you visited YARGB? If not, do so.
Even if the US had agreed to Protocol III, WP would not be prohibited. All we would be required to do would be to try and avoid hitting civilians.
And Mark Kraft is a lying sack of shit. White phosphosphorus does NOT create some “lethal clouds of gas that can kill everyone within 150 meters in all directions.” Do the math? Do the fucking reading you ignorant twat. From FM 8-9, the NATO HANDBOOK ON THE MEDICAL ASPECTS OF NBC DEFENSIVE OPERATIONS AMedP-6(B) Sec. 814 b.:
Or maybe read this:
which also contains this:
Oh, yeah, your apparent source on the “lethal cloud” also said that WP “often has no effect on clothes” and the gas will “blister the throat and lungs, causing rapid suffocation, burning the body from the inside.” Are you seriously that gullible? Are you seriously that fucking stupid?
“Weapons-grade Bullshit” indeed.
When lefties start talking about “lethal clouds” of WP gas, you all should remember it started with Mark Kraft. A lie travels halfway around the world before the truth catches up.
No, attacks against U.S. troops are not terrorist attacks </i>per se<i> We saw them as acts of war, and so acts of war were done upon those who attacked us. That’s how it goes. If you truly wish to know terrorism, there was a photograph, AP I beleive, on the front page of one of my local newspapers of an Iraqi soldier carrying a 20 DAY OLD BABY in a funeral procession. Even if the 75% stat is correct, and I suspect it is not, the other 25% of attacks, such as the one that killed that poor infant, are what make our enemies monsters. Their religious/political agenda is steeped in death, and that is the only solutuion that we soldiers have to offer them.
…and just for shits and giggles, the most dangerous chemical substance I came across in Iraq was either that weird yellowish gravy they served in the mess hall OR Tigris River water. Saw a catfish with legs, I swear…
This just in: white phosphorus kills everyone in a three mile radius, then turns their skin inside out.
Reports are coming in of Iraqi civilians being approached by American GI’s, drugged, then waking up the next morning in a tub of ice and a scar on their lower back. Others are left a note saying “Welcome to the world of AIDS”.
OH NO! Reports are confirmed that US Marines are exposing Iraqis to horribly toxic weapons known as death sticks! OH THE HUMANITY!
I know it might be a little late for this. But there’s something I really need to know. I kind of feel like I slept through an exam. Can anyone please tell me…
Who the hell is Mark Kraft?
Excuse me, when I described Mark Kraft’s “source” on WP earlier, I thought the link he provided earlier went to the LiveJournal of the soldier that served in Fallujah. It looks likes it goes to Mr. Kraft’s LiveJournal, and that he pulled that information out of his ass.
Really dorkafork? So in reality, the whole bleach and ammonia thing is more dangerous than the WP? Do you think our troops would ever use a mix of Windex and Clorox(potpourri scent) against the Iraqis? I mean, they shot Guiliana Sgrena and all. But I support them.
Tell me Mark Kraft! I want to know!
dorkafork,
If the WP only causes irritation, YOU’RE NOT USING ENOUGH!
With enough phosphoric acid, you can kill everybody IN THE WHOLE COUNTRY!!!
Now, ammonia and bleach I don’t even want to think about. Oh, the humanity!
Kos and Reid and that bunch are just fucking evil. All they care about is political power and they will say or do anything to get it.
So someone tell me again why Scooter Libby isn’t a hero.
<objective truths are too slowmoving as a means toward directed political activism. And so they are perfectly within their rights to dissemble and distort in the name of their own presumed rectitude.</blockquote>
You say this like it’s a new development.
No, it’s merely been placed on the back burner until the debunking of this lie gets enough currency. By then, the debunking of the DU myths will have faded from most people’s memory, so they’ll trot that out again. Then, when the DU myths are (again) debunked, they’ll either return to WP or come up with another lie to push.
It’s like crop rotation, but with lies.
(I suspect the third lie will involve cluster bombs. They’ve been whining about them at a low level forever; they’ve got enough attention now they can crank the whine up to a full-bore shrill.)
Jeff:
Reading this passage by you struck a real nerve with me…
“They are proud of thisâ€â€as if they’ve just now discovered that truth really doesn’t matterâ€â€even after years of making that claim. “
I was instantly remined of another post I read a few weeks ago, which seems to fill in the blanks…
“In my study of communist societies, I came to the conclusion that the purpose of communist propaganda was not to persuade or convince, nor to inform, but to humiliate; and therefore, the less it corresponded to reality the better.
“When people are forced to remain silent when they are being told the most obvious lies, or even worse when they are forced to repeat the lies themselves, they lose once and for all their sense of probity.
“To assent to obvious lies is to co-operate with evil, and in some small way to become evil oneself. One’s standing to resist anything is thus eroded, and even destroyed. A society of emasculated liars is easy to control. I think if you examine political correctness, it has the same effect and is intended to.”
(FROM: http://www.two–four.net/weblog.php?id=P1912)
I’m not so sure if it’s funny, but it surely says something that this crowd will deny that Saddam had any WMDs (despite his having used them in the past and despite the 2 tons of semi-enriched uranium and multiple “dual use” facilities like the mobile labs that were scoured with ammonia and various other evidence) yet they absolutely believe that we are using chem weapons.
I mean, when you take the side of a genocidal dictator over the US military, that says something ugly.
Gutless yanks is all I got to say! Weak as piss low act whatever you decide to call it.
Believe me you would have called it chemical weapons if Saddam had peppered your home town with it. So what’s your point but to have a whinge?
Use of K still goes against the Geneva Convention. How noble is the company of those companies that flout the Geneva Convention?
It’s pretty indefensible. But don’t worry, the White House staff are doing an ethics course! My god, have you heard of such stuff? A fucking ethics course!!!!! It is so fucking funny my sides are splitting. Whadaworld!
Wadard = Chickenhawk
Why don’t you grab a rifle and sign up? Or use your kung-fu skills? No, much easier to be a pussy and whine on the internet.
Wadard,
Geneva convention? Outright lie.
Yeassss!!! But it is sticking. Cloying to this foul White House. it’s great fun to watch. Like some Dr Seuss sticky goo party.
Whose your Daddy now?
CARBONATED WATER, CARAMEL COLOR, ASPARTAME, PHOSPHORIC ACID, POTASSIUM BENZOATE (TO PROTECT TASTE), NATURAL FLAVORS, CITRIC ACID, CAFFEINE.
—The can of Diet Coke I just finished. Pray for me.
Article III, Section 3, Clause 1 of the U.S. Constitution states: “Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.”
Very pleased. It couldn’t happen to a nicer bunch of guys as those around Bush. And now they come with ethics.
Wadard is one happy liar.
WTF is ‘K’? Are you trying to act all educated and crap? Because ‘K’ is the symbol for potassium. Phosphorus is ‘P’.
Even allowing for your ignorance, the statement is a lie. Use of incendiaries is NOT against the Geneva Conventions.
This just in:
From: Dept. of Redundancy Department, Strategy Team
If you repeat something often enough and loud enough it will become the ‘TRUTH’. Wash, rinse, repeat ad nauseam.
”…sticky goo party.”
Sounds like the kind of party with which “wad”boy would be quite familiar.
Paul, I’ll bet your innards are entirely rust-free. If not, drink more Coke!
White Phosphorus? Ummmm … no.
Here’s the CIA’s take on Iraq and White Phosphorus Basically, the trouble comes in when WP is used as a precursor for a nerve agent, not when used by itself as a munition.
And my recollection of the Fallujah story was that the town was, basically, empty at the time we were doing all these bad, horrible war-like things to those peaceable insurgent fellows.
Also, my recollection is that the US troops were firing at particular targets, not simply lobbing rounds willy-nilly into family picnics.
.
Did you know that the US Imperialists also use 5.56 mm bullets made of LEAD and shoot these all over Iraq?
Hello, ever heard of lead poisoning! Jeebus, you wingnuts are so evil. THe US is a fascist state, even Andrew Sullivan (a wingnut) admits it.
I often wonder how different the political landscape would look if the Republicans could field an eloquent candidate.
TW: results
Why fight your war loser? You got youself into it. I’m strictly sidelines.