As Jeff Zeleny and Michael Luo note in the New York Times, Barack Obama’s multi-billion dollar faith-based initiative runs the political risk of alienating his secular progressive supporters (some of whom are already smarting from Obama’s decisions to reject public financing and to support the latest bill on terrorist surveillance). It also runs the risk of eroding his Change brand by appearing to continue a somewhat controversial Bush adminsitration policy.
The NYT coverage of the proposal — and most other accounts – fail to convey that Obama’s plan is both different from and far more ambitious than anything Pres. Bush dared to suggest.
Collected bits from the NYT piece, as well as Mike Allen’s piece for the Politico, show that Obama plans to scrap the Bush-established office and create a new Council for Faith-Based and Neighborhood Partnerships. Obama said, “This Council will not just be another name on the White House organization chart  it will be a critical part of my administration.â€Â His campaign said it would be the “moral center†of his administration. Obama also said that the program would “be central to our White House mission,†and that he would consider elevating its director to a cabinet-level post.
The scope of the program suggests that Obama is planning to realize the vision he has had — and written about — since the day he joined the Rev. Jeremiah Wright’s Trinity United Church of Christ. Obama (then working as a community activist organizing churches)  saw the church community — as thoroughly politicized as it was by black liberation theology — as one more pliant than simple black nationalism, and more sustaining than Obama’s own Alinsky-esque brand of community organizing. For almost 20 years, Obama has dreamed of taking the moral fervor of those whipped up from the pulpit and channeling it into a concrete political program.
The very first goal listed by Camp Obama for the Council would be to train trainers to work with faith-based organizations on best practices, grant-making procedures and the like, which sounds very much like the creation of a new generation of federally funded Obamas whose job it would be to organize churches around the new program. Indeed, the NYT reports that in announcing the proposal, “Obama harked back to his early days as a community organizer in Chicago, where Roman Catholic charities financed his programs.” This time, the money — in the billions of dollars — will flow from the taxpayer.
Coincidentally, Obama’s position that religious organizations would not be able to consider religion in their hiring for such programs would tend to deter the sorts of churches and other religious organizations that participated in the Bush administration program, thereby leaving the field largely to the Religious Left groups with whom Obama has associated himself over the years. The ostensible bar on proselytizing would likely refer to religious proselytizing, not political proselytizing — and liberation theology-based churches can claim they are doing the latter, even though they are really identical under such theologies.
In short, Obama’s plan would set up the infrastructure for teaching a new generation of Rev. Wrights and Fr. Pflegers, supply them with billions of dollars, and permit them to politically proselytize to support the agenda of the man in charge of the money.
What say you, nishit?
Great post, Karl. An insta-classic, I suspect.
I see nothing good coming from infusing government into faith-based charities. I did time in our Catholic soup kitchen – run completely on donations and volunteerism. The way it should be. Other than grants (which I only lukewarmly support) – the idea of trainers training the “Obama” way … no thank you.
Catholics support it’s charities because they KNOW the government isn’t. It’s their obligation and if it sinks or swims – they know whether they’ve fulfilled their obligation to take care of the less fortunate. This is a slow creep toward putting the onus on the government.
I’m of the position, currently, that most government grants are a big waste of money, and often are rife with theft by misrepresentation. On guy got a grant (in Detroit) to teach the arts to poor city kids. He bought himself a house. His grant didn’t get renewed, but the $200,000 was already down the hole. It’s often a scam for someone to create a job for them self./rant off.
He’s such a fucking little anti-Christ.
That’s a rhetorical question, right?
VOTES, baby–VOTES
First, I’m going to run a writing workshop at my church. I need a $500,000 grant. I’m gonna pay myself $100,000 and bill “consulting fees” to my sil at $300 an hour. WOOT!
– If anyone out there doubted this guy is a dyed in the wool Socialist, and apparently one that believes solidly in apartheid, with this strident plan intermingling church and state in a very specific way, those doubts should now be put to rest.
– Depending on the Lefts reaction, this could be just one more example of how easily the nutroots abandon any pretense of their loudly proclaimed ideals, in this case the oft repeated “separation of church and state” that the ACLU, and various identity groups have been using as a hammer against the Conservatives and Christian churches for years.
– Apparently when Obama declared he could no more disown Rev, Wright than his own grandmother, he was being truthful for once.
– Turning to the practical, aside from the Lefts reaction to this “July surprise”, the other large question is will the religious community take the chocolate, or see this as an attempt to infiltrate, direct, and control churches in general, as some see it, the last bastion of resistance to the Lefts attempts to steadily replace our Democratic Republic, majority rules, with the Socialism template with Marxist overtones, where a small cult of leaders decide for the rest of us.
Our only principle right now is to win and drive bush out of office.
Who would be the fool to take you
Be more than just kind
Step into a life of maybe
Love is hard to find
Venezuela priests open pro-Chavez church
By CHRISTOPHER TOOTHAKER – 1 day ago
CARACAS, Venezuela (AP)  A fledgling church that openly backs President Hugo Chavez is raising the ire of Venezuela’s Roman Catholic hierarchy, preaching the Gospel alongside socialism.
Proggs, then you’ll get what you deserve.
Carin,
You will have to compete for grant money with my new church: The Church of the Dogleg Par Five.
We will be spreading the good news of the sunken 6-footer and the blasted sandy. All while teaching youngsters the value of carrying someone else’s gear and raking their bunkers. As our at-risk teens progress, we’ll have daily readings of the greens and they will be baptized in the cool water hazards of life. (and they’ll be gathering wayward balls while they’re in there) So go. Make disciples of all men. Keeping your left arm straight.
This I say unto you.
But, I really think that no matter what happens between now and November, Bush will not be in office next January.
“#Comment by ProggHero on 7/2 @ 7:25 am #
Our only principle right now is to win and drive bush out of office.”
Bush is leaving voluntarily you tranzi idiot.
The very first goal listed by Camp Obama for the Council would be to train trainers to work with faith-based organizations on best practices, grant-making procedures and the like, which sounds very much like the creation of a new generation of federally funded Obamas whose job it would be to organize churches around the new program.
That just sounds scary. So basically the church would not be active as much in teaching the scripture of cavement anymore, but in riling their people up to go out and vote them more grant money? I have to admit if this was bush every left wing site I know would be up in arms. Well too bad we are more worried right now about electing this guy than sticking to principles, sorry.
Good post and catch on this, Karl.
My guess is, if he will keep on this path Obama will alienate his progressive and democratic base,and will not get substantially more support from the conservatives anyway, who think he is socialist (and have reasons to think so ).
Kerryization of Obama candidacy continues.He could blame only himself…
Look Alp, there will be plenty for all. No need to feel threatened.
Has proggs been revealed as a hoax yet? I was busy yesterday and missed much of the weekend.
BBH at # 6
Absolutely correct observation on this matter.
carin, I guess I need to enroll in local orthodox church if I would want a piece of the pie, (what a fucked up socialistic atavistic thoughts from me, eh?)
Well Carin you guys are about to throw principle out the window and vote for McCain so why should we be any different?
– ProgHorn, you’ll be happy to know that those of us that saw you coming 100 miles down the road, and knew you had no principle worth talking about beyond winning power, expected no less of you than what you’ve said openly.
– However, you still have that one small detail to overcome. You have to get him elected.
– And as to Bush, he has taken the best you had and beaten you completely. At last count the AnythingGates stand at something like 67 – 0, favor of Bush, and he leaves on several upticks in the perfectly normal way.
– In other words, your “GetBush” propaganda campaign has been a total failure.
If Obonga keeps up with this progg-annoying, then Hillary will mount a revolt in Denver.
Not a bad thing, that. Somehow, Hillary is seeming more sane as Obonga unmasks.
(What am I saying? Somebody smack me~!)
I never commented on the ProggHero guy.
But, c’mon, people.
Can you see this guy is doing obvious parody on ultra-unprincipled-progressives?
Both McCain and Baracky will provide a huge boost to congressional Republicans, but McCain won’t be able to marshal the media and academia and now churches to defend the Democratic majority. This makes McCain the easy choice I think. Plus getting him out of the Senate makes America a better place.
I still maintain that there’s absolutely no way ProggHero can actually be a legitimate commenter – he’s too true to the stereotype and I think is simply writing stuff to get a rise out of the local commentariat.
Between the Constitution and the Secret Service (which actually performs the chauffeur duties for the President), y’all will have to wait in line.
Obvious it is — what’s less obvious is whether it’s meant that way.
– You very possibly could be right sashal, in fact some of us suspect its not just a parody, but a cunning invention straight from the evil mind of Goldberg.
– But it still feels good, very good, to be able to hit the Left with that glaring failure they’ll be sure to forget about as soon as possible.
Well Carin you guys are about to throw principle out the window and vote for McCain so why should we be any different
McCain was not my choice, but I’m not going against “principle” voting for him. At base, he’s a conservative, although he may stray from the plantation from time to time. Those issues with which I disagree, I won’t support and do my arm-chair-best to fight.
Well, it’s not as if she isn’t already revolting everywhere else.
he’s too true to the stereotype and the like, which but I think he’s super
One of the better arguments I’ve ever seen for voting for McCain. I’d still rather he went straight from the Senate to one of those retirement ranches they have in Arizona.
Yes. The dark flipside is that electing McCain encourages all the other fucktarded senator people to think they is gonna be pezzydent one day, but there’s no way around that. It’s unfortunate.
I kinda like the way proggs gets confused and offended when we accuse him of being a parody. From here on out, I address you ONLY as a parody. Until I see the pic of you with your VW bus. And the beret. And the Che shirt.
Who are you parodying, sashal?
BOLSHEVIKS?!
– And the “selected not elected ’00” bumper sticker.
PH was not a parody when he tried to hit on nishi. He sounded like excitable Andy fawning over Oboner!
What about Rage Against the Machine shirt, VW Passat, and a hackeysack?
electing McCain encourages all the other fucktarded senator people to think they is gonna be pezzydent one day
And if Biden is VP, you’re going to see more senators getting hair-plugs. Staring with Diane Feinstein.
Starting that is, but, of course, there will be staring.
What about Rage Against the Machine shirt, VW Passat, and a hackeysack?
Do you have white-boy dreads? Smell like patchouli?
But also my guess is don’t expect Baracky to go on and on about this. He just wants to be able later on to say hey I has a mandate to get all these churches straightened out and more better focused. You know, for the people. We talked about this remember?
“inartful†now ranks up there with “inoperativeâ€Â
What could be next ? “I’m not a crook”
No I have the bumper sticker with the date bush leaves office.
Our only principle right now is to win and drive bush out of office.
You do realize that the evil dictatorial tyrant is not running for office, no?
Comment by ProggHero on 7/2 @ 7:57 am #
What about Rage Against the Machine shirt, VW Passat, and a hackeysack?
Is that on your myspace page? I’m sure nishi will be impressed!
Nor is he going to climb into your Passat, PH. Driving him out of office is just not going to happen for you.
It’s sad when dreams die.
“What about Rage Against the Machine shirt, VW Passat, and a hackeysack?”
Hey newbie. What about a Box of Rain shirt, a VW Beetle, and a sack of kind bud (all of which I’ve owned at one time or another)?
religious proselytization is a great evil.
it has caused most of the worlds pain since inception.
i cant find fault with this.
Obama is just going after the voting block that swung every election, that Reihan and Douthat frame in the Grand New Party.
the yeoman farmers of the 21st century.
u guyz dont give a shit about them with with your trickle down supply side economics and ur fuckin delusional educational romanticism.
bend over and lube up.
Any “faith-based” initiative is unmanageable, and inappropriate as a federal endeavor. I didn’t like Bush’s program, and I sure as hell don’t like this. If religion is the antidote to this nation’s problems, let’s just bring Jesus back.
Then you really ought to shut the fuck up with your theocracy nonsense, ya loonwaffle hypocrite.
religious proselytization is a great evil.
it has caused most of the worlds pain since inception.
i cant find fault with this.
It mutters on, unfazed by its own cognitive dissonance. Looks like we have a new meme (#9) in re. Grand New Party.
bend over and lube up.
Keep talking like that and PH won’t need online porn for his Oboner!
.
u guyz dont give a shit about them with with your trickle down supply side economics and ur fuckin delusional educational romanticism.
bend over and lube up.
WTF are you talking about?
Nishi it is hard for me to stay attracted to you when you go from ranting about how much religion sucks, to now saying it is ok because Obama is just going after a voting block. Please can’t we just agree all religions suck, and it is used by emotional people who need more self esteem?
This is I assume the kind of faith based organization that Obama will funnel money into. There are undoubtedly others but this is the only one I’ve had personal experience with.
PH, i am virulently against religion in politics.
you cannot get rid of religion, it is hard wired from the EEA.
but u can <channel it for the greater good.
I’ve made up my mind. Progg is one of you guys. But which one ….
The creation of the trainers I would oppose just on the grounds of more bloated federal bureaucracy. The real problem is not that they would exist but what exactly they would train the churches to do to get said grants.
This opens up a Pandora’s Box the size of Rosie O’Donnell’s pantry. Will this be an opportunity to “streamline” churches in how they operate and even what they say? Will they be brow beaten by the glittering gem of Tax Dollars into “playing ball” with the administration?
All of that depends upon the character and training of the trainers. The idea that Faith Based Initiatives (not a terrible idea in and of itself) will be dependant on these “trainers” who will have all of the trappings of “gatekeepers” is very disturbing and, I suspect, a serious constitutional question which will rouse the ACLU to action.
This strikes me as a not well thought out program fraught with unintended consequences.
Carin!
get a clue.
No Child Left Behind! Phds for everyone! You too can be a Lawyer!
Maybee hasn’t been around … perhaps she’s deep, deep in character? Perhaps SHE’S STUCK IN CHARACTER?!?
I disagree with the precident nishi. What happens when theocons actually start shoving loads of government funding into snake handling bible thumping redneck churches for the purpose of “community outreach”? That can only lead to trouble.
–“WTF are you talking about?
– They don’t know, and they don’t care, they just constantly whine and babble because they’re out of power.
– Bush is on TV really pounding the crap out of the Dems Congress for their obstructionism on the oil mess. To the Lefts eternal consternation, Chimpy apparently does not intend to go quietly into that good night, and hes got nothing to lose at this point, so I expect him to ratchet the onslaught up as his term comes to an end.
It’s perverted, what Baracky wants to do with our churches. It’s nationalizing religion. No church left behind is what it is.
PH, there are two pics of me on my old blog.
here
here
i have since learned not to do pictures.
Nishi – you are, at this very instant baffling me.
1) Nishi sez: “Obama is just going after the [religious] voting block that swung every election”
2) Nishi sez: “i am virulently against religion in politics.”
3) Nishi sez: “but u can channel [religion] for the greater good”
I am still baffled beyond all reasonable measures, but it would seem that at an absolute minimum, at least one of those three statements contradicts at least one of those other statements.
Wow… and this is all one thread!
BRD
I bet it will be measurable. With benchmarks and shit. Baracky loves benchmarks and shit.
No feets, it is brilliant.
It is bricolage.
It is re-engineering religious infrastructure to do good!
“…and it is used by emotional people who need more self esteem?”
– Would that be in any way, similar to people who slavishly idolize cult figures?
t a clue.
No Child Left Behind! Phds for everyone! You too can be a Lawyer!
There is a vast difference between aiming to attain a minimal level of education for the majority of students (Detroit HS graduation rates are 24%, thankyouverymuch) and the LEFTIST agenda of sending everyone to college. Michigan Gov Jenny Granholm’s stated goal in her last state of the State address was to DOUBLE the number of Michigan students attending college.
No. It’s top-down and unnatural. Religion burbles up from the crevices where mystery and the inexplicable confuzzling things reside. Baracky wants to pervert this. Programmatize it. That’s not what good people do.
Thank you nishi. You have a nice looking blog :)
no BRD, some of that voting block is not religious.
that block, described in the Grand New Party, is the 21st century equivalent of Jeffersons “Yeoman Farmer.”
dr pournelle’s 40percent–
Nishi,
In the space of something like 5 comments, you say religion in politics is bad, but religion in politics is good, provided that it’s Obama mixing the two. I am way vexed by the sheer, rampant, incredible contradiction at play here.
BRD
– I agree this gives the Hillery another round of ammo in her latent candidacy efforts.
– The Left may yet find out they backed the wrong nag.
Nishi, on the one hand, sez: “religious proselytization is a great evil. it has caused most of the worlds pain since inception.[sic]”
And yet, on the other hand sez: “It is re-engineering religious infrastructure to do good!”[sic]
At the bare, bare, absolute minimum, and making the exceedingly generous assumption that you are not in blatant contradiction with yourself, you are perhaps proposing that O! can magically just change the behavior and use of religion since the inception of civilization with a campaign promise? What the unholy WTF is that?
BRD
Carin cant u read????
The apotheosis of educational romanticism occurred on January 8, 2002, when a Republican president of the United States, surrounded by approving legislators from both parties, signed into law the No Child Left Behind Act, which had this as the Statement of Purpose for its key title:
The purpose of this title is to ensure that all children have a fair, equal, and significant opportunity to obtain a high-quality education and reach, at a minimum, proficiency on challenging State academic achievement standards and state academic assessments.
I added the italics. All means exactly that: everybody, right down to the bottom level of ability. The language of the 2002 law made no provision for any exclusions. The Act requires that this goal be met “not later than 12 years after the end of the 2001-2002 school year.â€Â
We are not talking about a political speech or a campaign promise. The United States Congress, acting with large bipartisan majorities, at the urging of the President, enacted as the law of the land that all children are to be above average. I do not exaggerate. When No Child Left Behind began in 2002, the nation already possessed operational definitions of proficient in the math and reading tests administered under the National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP, pronounced “napeâ€Â). NAEP is seen as the gold standard in educational testing. Only about 30 percent of American students were proficient in either reading or math by NAEP’s definitions when No Child Left Behind began. In other words, by NAEP’s standard, all students are not just to be brought to the average that existed when No Child Left Behind was enacted. All of them are to reach the level of students at the seventieth percentile.
Many laws are too optimistic, but the No Child Left Behind Act transcended optimism. It set a goal that was devoid of any contact with reality.
Please explain how this doesn’t trash the First Amendment and make a complete mockery of the Seperation of Church and State.
This should be
goodincoherent.I do not think anyone is going to win any votes by calling 40% of Americans poor farmers without the intellectual capacity to graduate from college.
I knew alot of really dumb people in college.
Above averge.
That is the meaning of NCLB.
BRD, he can try.
Religion does some good things. Ghetto kids can be lifted out of their environment with religion.
Religious institutions can administer to the poor far more efficently that Big government.
Because churches can be local, grassroots community aid-infusers.
The bad part of religion is the assertion that mine is better than urs, and we are more plentiful so we get to impose our religion on the rest of u.
Bricolage is simply re-use of existing structures for a new or improved purpose.
Instead of “spreading the good word” …..”spreading the good work”.
Also, conflating faith-based organizations with “neighborhood groups” reduces churches to the level of those people that sponsor litter control on the highway. How demeaning, really. Churches play a distinctive role that sets them apart from the Rotary Club I think. Baracky wants to codify churches’ place in society is all this is I think. For the social justice.
It’s fascism.
Which would explain your enthusiasm for it.
“consider how blue collar workers without college degrees…..blah blah blah”
– Yes nishi, we know how the elite look down their noses at all the “lessor others”, although it might be more effective if your side took baths nore often. The Black community is finally growing weary of your snobbishness, and drifting away from the plantation, which would be the kiss of death for you minority party.
– The problem that you and your cohorts have, including the CandyMan, is that for all their so-called illiteracy, they can see through you like a pane of cocoa tinted glass.
yah, PH, theres the rub.
How to tell 100million ppl that they’re just not college material?
Even when Jefferson says it it sounds condescending.
The problem, you ignorant bitch, is that you can’t write.
Comment by ProggHero on 7/2 @ 9:06 am #
I do not think anyone is going to win any votes by calling 40% of Americans poor farmers without the intellectual capacity to graduate from college.
I knew alot of really dumb people in college.
Hang in there sport, she’s just getting started. You may want to get a beer and some popcorn.
We’ve been over this before: “Sorry, you’re just not college material.”
You’re the one who thinks people will take that as an insult.
I’m afraid that I substantiallu agree with nishi on her point about NCLB, although a plain reading indicates “minimum proficiency” as a goal, not everyone above average.
Nishi has a religious zealots attitude about this stuff, which I find richly ironic. In fact what NCLB has accomplished is the carving of money out of “excellence” programs (AP, Special Scholar, et al.) and the mainlining of that money into “Special Education” programs of all kind. While it may raise proficiencies slightly across the board it provides a financial hardship for those schools that have more special needs children, many of whom will not make the “minimum proficiencies.” The end result is that the best and the brightest get to beg for money which, in the long run, hurts our ability to compete educationally with the rest of the world.
Of course, none of this has anything to do with Obama’s troubling faith based initiatives program but I suspect that nishi would prefer we not spend too much time on her hypocrisy there.
Hey, nish! Post that 3 or 4 more times. Maybe it will become relevant. Maybe you can get O! to order the pope to declare it relevant.
Nishi: “How to tell 100million ppl that they’re just not college material?”
By toughening the entrance requirements, ending high-school level courses taught at universities for college credit and return all of the education system from self-esteem mills to actual centers of education. Done properly, in hand with degree-deflation, it shouldn’t be a major difficulty.
Not go back to your manga and leave important things to the grown-ups.
Now, even… *sigh*
Depressing, isnt it PH?
Thats why i want a Transhumanist Birthright.
To escape the tyranny of the genes.
Most of them don’t need telling. Most of them figure it out in advance or shortly thereafter.
Would you settle for a unicorn and a ball gag, nishi?
That started long before NCLB. It has more to do with the forced egalitarianism of the left than with any Bush program.
Nishi,
One important point on the NCLB Act – is that you actually have to read what it actually says, and then also consider how standards are created.
Point the First “The purpose of this title is to ensure that all children have a fair, equal, and significant opportunity to obtain a high-quality education and reach, at a minimum, proficiency on challenging State academic achievement standards and state academic assessments.”
This is basically the same thing that has been provided by the “Free and Appropriate Public Education” regulations on the education of the developmentally delayed students.
It does not demand that the students all achieve at that level, but makes the broader assumption that if we test all students at a given school, and none of the students score well, then the school is probably not providing a reasonably good education.
Point the Second: Where on Earth are you getting average? If average were anywhere at all in anything, then there would be no basis from which to even argue that a change needs to be made. Standards are set at some arbitrary level, based on where people are at and what they think a given level of achievement means. If you wanted, for example, to completely fox the NCLB Act, you could just ratchet down standardization requirements by three grade levels.
BRD
Oh, shut the hell up. We’re living in the real world, not your blighted fantasy of becoming ubermensch.
Nishi,
Are you saying that you were in favor of Bush’s Faith-based initiatives?
BRD
This piece of shit couldn’t even have a normal adult relationship with his own church and now he wants to send a personal emissary to all of them. Help them get with the program. What a fucking joke.
I do figure if Obama’s faith based initiatives ever get any traction in the media you could see a tremendous backfire.
hey BRD, argue with Murray on that.
Or read his book. ;)
reach, at a minimum, proficiency on challenging State academic achievement standards and state academic assessments.
Only about 30 percent of American students were proficient in either reading or math by NAEP’s definitions when No Child Left Behind began.
All of them are to reach the level of students at the seventieth percentile.
well then, GW had better get bizzy and lower the NAEP standards before 2012.
BRD: You already know the answer to that. Buah can’t be trusted because he was part and parcel of the xtian Theocon conspiracy.
Obama is the transhumanist Lightbringer™ who knows how to manipulate religion so that it’s more “collective good works” and less, you know, “religisy.”
Clearly, faith-based initiatives are only okay if a Republican is running the country. LOL. Of course those of us arguing against those faith-based initiatives raised the very point implied in this post: the party in power can and will shift money to religious groups/religions they favor. I am against them in both Obama and Bush’s case. Apparently consistency is not the strong suit of the right wing on this issue. Of course there is always the question of whether Obama… radical Christian Muslimist…. will use this to bankroll the coming of the Caliphate…. LOL!
To think all the time people sit in church praying to god they could be out helping in their community, learning something new, helping to rebuild our infrastructure, teaching people to be more tolerant to others, or volunteering to help out in a hospital.
I mean if they can’t even get into college they might as well become useful.
– Transhumanism is exactly as cold and inhuman as it sounds. I know you worship the idea nishi – gets rid of all that messy personal responsibility and principles, plus when you dehumunize everyone you can fuck with them without any sort of moral limits or guilt.
– Personally I would love to see you subjected to such a world, you wouldn’t last a week.
– Lacking the skill of critical thinking, a cold aemotional, humorless world, would nothing like you imagine it would be. Give up all ideas of interhuman feelings and you’d be the first treated like a piece of meat, just another cow in the herd.
– Would you really be happy being just another cow nishi?
Carin cant u read????
Heh.
I like how nishi focuses on the ONE program by Bush that she doesn’t like, and ignore the multitudes of BS education crap put out by the liberals. Jenny Granholm wants EVERYONE to go to college. Student loans for EVERYONE. gRants. yada yada yada.
actually, i was in favor of GW’s faithbased initiatives.
churches administering local charity is a great idea.
1. more efficient, cuz its local and gets community voluteers
2. existing administrative beauocracy
3. less open to corruption, but not impervious
it works in Iraq too, to have the local mosques recruit policemen and distribute goods and services.
the model exploits grassroots social networking.
“#Comment by ProggHero on 7/2 @ 7:25 am #
Our only principle right now is to win and drive bush out of office.”
So things like principal get thrown under the bus with grandma, huh?
Yep, you and your ilk are nothing but a collection of power hungry thugs.
Are you, perchance, wearing your brown shirt today, with the tiny little mustache drawn with your own feces?
Carin, the left does it too.
Educational romanticism characterizes reformers of both Left and Right, though in different ways. Educational romantics of the Left focus on race, class, and gender. It is children of color, children of poor parents, and girls whose performance is artificially depressed, and their academic achievement will blossom as soon as they are liberated from the racism, classism, and sexism embedded in American education. Those of the Right see public education as an ineffectual monopoly, and think that educational achievement will blossom when school choice liberates children from politically correct curricula and obdurate teachers’ unions.
you are both wrong.
“it works in Iraq too, to have the local mosques recruit policemen and distribute goods and services.
the model exploits grassroots social networking.”
– Particularly now that they see the oil starting to flow and alternate Tuesdays are no longer used for making roadside bombs and teaching suicide bombers how to look innocent.
Anyone else notice the vigor with which the lolbot is dragging the thread off topic?
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 7/2 @ 9:32 am #
it works in Iraq too, to have the local mosques recruit policemen and distribute goods and services.
the model exploits grassroots social networking.
Hamas uses the same tools to increase its influence. I could see right wingers doing the same thing. Both would be bad.
i gtg to work pablo.
i hereby designate u to return thread to topic.
Those of the Right see public education as an ineffectual monopoly, and think that educational achievement will blossom when school choice liberates children from politically correct curricula and obdurate teachers’ unions.
you are both wrong.
That’s a nice strawman you’ve set up there- actually for both sides of the political spectrum. But, let’s get down to YOUR opinion. Which is that the stupid two-digits are simply unable to learn how to read, write, or add up a column of numbers. Right?
O!
dammit PH rightwingers arent the equivalent of Hamas.
cut that out.
carin, i really gtg, read murrays article he explains that.
Comment by Pablo on 7/2 @ 9:38 am #
Anyone else notice the vigor with which the lolbot is dragging the thread off topic?
Happens every time! It’s more consistent than her logic. PH, time to get another beer.
– “….In other news, at the behest of the Maliki government, five major US oil producers were the winners in a group of 123 companies bidding for the rights to help Iraq build refineries to establish their oil industry on a modern footing.
– In a related story, the Sunni parliamentary group which had stepped away from the Iraqi parliament almost a full year ago, announced the same day they were ready to rejoin the Iraq leadership, now that all or most of their “concerns” have been met….”
– Surprise, surprise.
How can you say dammit to me when neither of us believe in god? Kinda funny sorry.
“#
Comment by BRD on 7/2 @ 8:48 am #
Nishi – you are, at this very instant baffling me.
1) Nishi sez: “Obama is just going after the [religious] voting block that swung every electionâ€Â
2) Nishi sez: “i am virulently against religion in politics.â€Â
3) Nishi sez: “but u can channel [religion] for the greater goodâ€Â
I am still baffled beyond all reasonable measures, but it would seem that at an absolute minimum, at least one of those three statements contradicts at least one of those other statements.
Wow… and this is all one thread!
BRD”
Think retarded marmoset.
It explains a lot.
Coming from a guy named NObrain…. you must be one of those 40%ers with no hope in life.
Comment by ProggHero on 7/2 @ 9:44 am #
How can you say dammit to me when neither of us believe in god? Kinda funny sorry.
Commentus interruptus! PH, looks like you’ll have to finish by yourself. BTW, nishi claims to be a Sufi.
“#Comment by ProggHero on 7/2 @ 9:28 am #
I mean if they can’t even get into college they might as well become useful.”
I know, you could put them in camps or something.
“#Comment by ProggHero on 7/2 @ 9:49 am #
Coming from a guy named NObrain…. you must be one of those 40%ers with no hope in life.”
Proving, yet again, that you don’t have a fucking Clueâ„¢.
Here is the substance of nishit’s meme’s – #)(#*)(@#*&@*%)_@&*$_@*)& @#)_(*@%()@*&$_@&*%@*^#*(@&^()%#*_&@#$*&()@^%)(
serr8d,
I think Hill and Bill just might be preparing the largest fireworks show ever for Denver.
It ain’t like Billary to go out with a whimper. I’m kinda half expecting that when the dust settles in Denver, Hillary will walk away with O!’s head in her hand.
Don’t forget. Hillary only SUSPENDED her campaign.
Baracky wants to nurture the social justicey marxist churches he likes and marginalize the rest. Best practices. Subverting religion is wrong. And subverting religion as the moral center of your administration is fucking twisted.
Nishi,
I agree with you in principle on the advantages to such an approach – in theory. However, just keep in mind that the more closely they become integrated in any way shape or form, the more seepage you get across the border. Your religious organizations will, inevitably, become more political, and social services will, inevitably, become more religious.
This would seem to run counter to your aversion to mixing the two, as O!s plan explicitly mixes the two.
BRD
I agree with the Roddenberry vision on Transhumanism.
PIATOR > actus > PriggHero
In order of appearance. Many of the “Old Timers” think they were/are Jeff.
Obama’s call for the renunciation of the application of credal statements to operational matters by certain denominations (oh, say Catholics) as the “ante” to get in his Marxist game is very reminiscient of the Third Reich’s subornation of a good chunk of the Lutheran Church in 1934. I wonder if that’s his “roadmap for progress”? The difference between the Third Reich’s throttling of the Lutheran Church through denial of state funding and Obama’s offer of hefty bribes in exchange for adoption of neomarxism by those wishing to participate is just exchanging bribery for extortion as the motivating factor.
He’s a nasty little man, isn’t he? I’m keeping my fingers crossed that the decent archbishops will lay down a rolling barrage against this cretinous supporter of infanticide beginning in September.
Again with the parody line….Look why do you think I am a parody?
“Many laws are too optimistic, but the No Child Left Behind Act transcended optimism. It set a goal that was devoid of any contact with reality.”
Nishidiot –
You are batshit stupid. Ted Kennedy wrote the fucking law! Bush demanded ONLY acountability for the schools. The Swimmer had an absolutely free hand to spend as much as he wanted. If the bill fucked up, I think looking toward the murderous coward would be appropriate.
As far as the claim of Bush withholding funds, THAT WAS PART OF THE BILL.
And, apparently, it’s too late for educator’s being responsible for educating – at least in your case.
I had a professor in college that called all the “tax reform” laws passed by Congress “The Lawyers and Accountants Relief Act of 19–”
This proposal by Obama is “The Community Organizer Relief Act of 2009”
“….Look why do you think I am a parody?
– You just answered your own question.
Comment by ProggHero on 7/2 @ 10:28 am #
Again with the parody line….Look why do you think I am a parody?
Who cares? (OT)Now, have you ever voted in a presidential election? You didn’t answer that quesiotn yesterday.
It is re-engineering religious infrastructure to do good!
“Don’t touch it! It’s Evil!”
Kennedy wrote the fucking law!
You know, I totally forgot about that! LOL.
Marx – just as Chavez is doing now – made the church an instrument of the state. Under Marxism, you just have to kill all the religious, all ministers, and then set up your own episcopacy, in this case, a WHite House Council. Then make funding for all, excepting those who do not meet the Council’s standards. Soon you control church policy and preaching. And the beauty of it all is, with a couple of USC apponitees it’ll all be OK.
Yes I have voted before. What is the point of asking me that?
Heaven help us!
[…] John McCain also has supported expanding Americorps (thus highlighting Jeff G’s point about McCain’s own proggressive tenedncies), but for Obama it would serve the same agenda agenda as Obama’s faith-based initiative. […]
This would seem to run counter to your aversion to mixing the two, as O!s plan explicitly mixes the two.
no..i think it more like making a new, more benevolent channel for the energy of religious fervor run in.
i could see the different denominations gettin competitive about who has doen the most good, rather than who has the most converts or passed the most “judeo-xian legislature”.
i voted for bush 4 years ago.
an he threw me and every other science type under the theocon bus.
doesnt matter if kennedy wrote it.
like i said Carin, both sides are wrong.
we have done what we can with environment.
And you’re throwing yourself under the theolib bus, you hypocritical fraud.
Carin, what are those people going to do?
that is my point.
the factory workers, the solid, honorable, working class of America, Jefferson’s yeoman farmers for the 21st century.
even if they could all be lawyers, we dont need ANY more lawyers.
they need jobs that can pay a good living and that they can be proud of.
we need decent trade skillz schools, not ten thousand versions of Harmon Tech in Accepted.
And still OT, because she can’t face her rampant, incoherent hypocrisy. Everyone would respect her more if she just admitted that her support of O! is really all about the humidity level in her underwear.
<mindbleach>
relly Karl?
doesnt feel like that to me.
i agree with a lot of what O! is saying.
so does Althouse.
see what i mean about Dr. K gettin pissy?
u, Karl, have been pissy all along.
do i ever accuse u of gettin hard over mccain?
nope……cuz u cant.
if O! is viagra for polictics, mccain is the equivalent of a cold shower.
Does anyone ever accuse the ‘toon of giving substantive, logical reasons to support Obama, that have any basis in objective reality?
Nope……cuz she cant.
Nishi,
You say some things that I disagree with – but that’s fine as disagreement is a pretty normal human pursuit. But on this one – you are just breathtakingly incredibly breathtakingly incredibly wow holy mackerel breathtakingly mind bogglingly full stop wrong.
You say “no..i think it more like making a new, more benevolent channel for the energy of religious fervor run in. i could see the different denominations gettin competitive about who has doen the most good, rather than who has the most converts or passed the most “judeo-xian legislatureâ€Â.”
Have you any – any – ANY idea what you are on about?
Do you think that religions sit around the bar on Fridays and say to compare membership counts?
Can you possibly tell me any ANY sort of competitiveness about passing religious legislation?
How the hell can you tell the difference between Methodist and Presbyterian legislation? Seriously.
————————-
Ok, past that, the diea that religions don’t compete on charities is profoundly, incredibly amazingly silly. There is a whole chunk of theological debate on acts versus faith, and the idea that faith without acts has no value is by no means new. Past that, pretty much every time you hear the word “mission” it almost inevitably means going off to do good works. Missionaries as such have gotten thin on the ground since the days of Gunga Din.
———————————-
Third, the idea that “i think it more like making a new, more benevolent channel for the energy of religious fervor run in.”[sic] doesn’t get rid of what bugs you most – which is the fervor part of the program. I can think of absolutely NO cases in which state co-optation of relgion didn’t end up resulting in the very same kind of activities which you so loudly claim to despise.
I normally expect you to be questionable on facts, to express yourself poorly, to have an incredibly bad grasp of punctuation and capitalization, and to immunize yourself to any contrary point of view, but in general you aren’t so painfully ahistorical, devoid of logic, and blind to consequence as you are in this thread.
This is no different in shape, principle, or form, than any other state-guided quasi-religious disaster like the co-optation of the Lutheran Church in Germany, or the Spanish Religio-Politico of the reconquista that ended up sending Jesuits to South America for the good of the poor uncivilized of the world.
Given the idea that power lends itself to corruption, you are proposing taking two gigantically powerful social instruments, putting them in lockstep and then you just magically Hope that O!s rhetorical powers will magically Change human history and get it to act counter to the way it has done consistently and regularly at so many levels for the past 8 millennia.
Honey child – that’s just pure plain whacked.
As a super-smart person, wind up that head of yours and see what incredible supernatural powers it would take to magically unite church and state without, you know, attaching church and state to each other.
BRD
well….that didnt happen durin 8 years of GWs faithbased initiative.
why would it happen now?
Because O has been writing about making it happen for 20 years, during which time he worshipped in a church that freely mixes political and religious advocacy.
This is the aprt where she claims O hasn’t written about BLT, and I respond that O didn’t write about it because it is politically damaging to him. So much so that he refuses to answer any media questions about it. And then she repeats one of her eight memes or goes OT.
That should save some time.
please note nishi’s advocacy for paying religious groups to provide social service…
BECAUSE SHE IS SOOOOOOO FRICKIN’ LIBERTARIAN!!!!eleventy!!!
And let’s expand on that, shall we? nishi comes here with great arrogance, blasting people for being insufficiently libertarian while her own lips are affixed to the buttocks of an obvious statist. Thus, I do not think it is pissy to point out that she is a hypocritical fraud.
Baracky scares me with his designs on Christianity and all. That’s just not a normal thing for a president to want to get his paws on. Make him stop, Karl.
By signing the first ever bill funding stem-cell research.
Yeah, that’s fucking treason to science. You idiot.
hey Karl, i gots the ultimate libertarian chops.
ima transhumanist.
i believe everyone owns their own body.
cant i also admire bricolage?
it is whats workin in Iraq.
this is just a variant on armed social work.
This doesn’t have to be contentious. Baracky just needs to take his paws off our churches and back away slowly.
those cell lines were already started and unuseable for human research at the time GW signed that bill (on acount of the mousefeedercell contamination problem), Rob.
he vetoed two other bills that would have allowed ESC research to progress.
Nishi: “hey Karl, i gots the ultimate libertarian chops.
ima transhumanist.”
ura illiterate, Nishi — go back to your manga.
this is just a variant on armed social work.
instead of using tribal infrastructure or mosque infrastructure, we use church infrastructure at the local, grassroots level.
Nishi must have a word-of-the-day calendar.
Actually, Karl, I think nishi’s position is perfectly consistent. She wants government to influence religion, but not for religion to influence government. That it’s hypocritical and antithetical to American values, ideals, and traditions is meaningless to the “transhumanist”.
She wants to re-engineer society to conform to her prejudices; how it happens and who she has to stomp on is not important.
(And anyone who buys her “transhumanist” crap is a fool.)
Most of the libertarians I know don’t want gov’t allocating the use of greater proportions of any finite resource, as gov’t is the least efficient (most wasteful) of all decision makers known. The less gov’t does, the better.
So what? He funded the stupid research, which is more than any administration had allowed before. For fuck’s sake, nishidiot, if you really were a libertarian, you’d be pissed that he allowed taxpayer money to go to research at all. If you really were a libertarian, you’d be pissed that people who object to any stem cell research have money forcibly confiscated from them in order to fund it.
You’re not libertarian. You’re an eater; you want what you want and you don’t give a damned who you have to walk over to get it.
In a word, you’re a brat.
Yeah, but they’re not transhumanists.
Nishi,
You respond “well….that didnt happen durin 8 years of GWs faithbased initiative. why would it happen now?”[sic].
For a couple reasons:
1) The Obama plan is far more sweeping than anything Bush has proposed (see also thread on AmeriCorps, et al.)
2) When the party that is traditionally all up in arms about keeping state and church separate gets into the head space of promoting church and state unity, you have a situation where the natural enemy to a given action all the sudden becomes it’s biggest ally. Further down the pike, it won’t be a matter of arguing that religion should be kept separate from governance but rather which religious agenda to do I have ally myself with to get my political agenda enacted, and which other religious agenda do I have to suppress to beat down my political opponents. It’s a variant on who watches the watchers. Once the watchers are on the take, the system just races for bottom.
3) Generally speaking, if a given situation produces some sort of threat (at least in your eyes), why do you imagine that exacerbating the situation will magically make the problem go away? That’s painfully counterintuitive.
You’ve probably heard the Huey Long quote about “When fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in a flag.” While I dispute the general argument presented in that quote, if you apply it to theocracy and the left you have a much better fit.
I have seldom seen anyone so excited about drafting the fox to guard the henhouse as you have been on this thread.
BRD
Her lust object proposed it, so she’s all moist over the idea.
Remember, nishi’s not all that politically sophisticated — remember her bizarre usages of “statism” and “states rights”? She’s running on pure idol worship; she’s bought into the rhetoric completely, and is about as rational as any new convert.
Hell, I’d submit that nishi’s almost a model convert/fanatic. A self-proclaimed Muslim with a Hindu idol? A libertarian pissed that government didn’t spend enough on a program that’s not Constitutionally required? She grabs whatever label makes her feel good about herself, or that pisses other people off, regardless of whether that label actually applies. When she gets a new idea (or word, or faith), she can’t help but repeat it endlessly, and tirelessly berates others who can’t see the inescapable logic and truth of her new toy.
Consistency would limit her ability to pat herself on the back; she might find a positive label she couldn’t in all honesty apply to herself. So consistency is tossed out like old meat.
Poor hens. Eatened all up is what will happen.
Has Jeff been drinking again?
Enjoy. Pork chops are better for cholesterol.
BTW, who had ESCR in today’s Nishi incoherence pool?
Obama can shove anything he thinks about “faith” and “Helping people” up his LIBERAL BS ass.
[…] thus should not be surprising that Obama sees Catholic Charities as integral to his long-held vision of teaching and funding a new generation of politicized preachers like the Rev. Jeremiah Wright and […]