In “The Big Picture(s)” — an extended analysis of the establishment media’s coverage of the conflict in Iraq — one theme which emerged was that the media frequently invoked Vietnam as an analogy, even before the emergence of the Sunni insurgency. Moreover, the establishment media evoked a particular narrative of the Vietnam War which ignored the ongoing historical debate over the course that conflict ultimately took. The news consuming public was thus treated to the spectacle of a media which reported thousands of stories invoking the Vietnam analogy hysterically and hypocritically condemning President Bush for invoking Vietnam analogies of his own.
The upcoming issue of The New York Times Magazine contains a profile of Sen. John McCain by Matt Bai that fits confortably into this genre. Comparing McCain’s support for the mission in Iraq to the opposition of Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-NE) and the Democrats John Kerry and Jim Webb  as well as former Democratic colleagues like Bob Kerrey, Max Cleland and Chuck Robb — Bai writes:
There is a feeling among some of McCain’s fellow veterans that his break with them on Iraq can be traced, at least partly, to his markedly different experience in Vietnam. McCain’s comrades in the Senate will not talk about this publicly. They are wary of seeming to denigrate McCain’s service, marked by his legendary endurance in a Hanoi prison camp, when in fact they remain, to this day, in awe of it. And yet in private discussions with friends and colleagues, some of them have pointed out that McCain, who was shot down and captured in 1967, spent the worst and most costly years of the war sealed away, both from the rice paddies of Indochina and from the outside world. During those years, McCain did not share the disillusioning and morally jarring experiences of soldiers like Kerry, Webb and Hagel, who found themselves unable to recognize their enemy in the confusion of the jungle; he never underwent the conversion that caused Kerry, for one, to toss away some of his war decorations during a protest at the Capitol. Whatever anger McCain felt remained focused on his captors, not on his own superiors back in Washington.
Not all of McCain’s fellow veterans subscribe to the theory that the singularity of his war experience has anything to do with his intransigence on Iraq. (Bob Kerrey, for one, told me that while he was aware of this argument, he has never believed it.) But some suspect that whatever lesson McCain took away from his time in Vietnam, it was not the one that stayed with his colleagues who were “in country†during those years  that some wars simply can’t be won on the battlefield, no matter how long you fight them, no matter how many soldiers you send there to die.
That is the narrative of the safely anonymous “some” who misunderstand or choose to misrepresent McCain’s actual position on Iraq, as set forth in his speech at the Virginia Military Institute in April 2007:
We all agree a military solution alone will not solve the problems of Iraq. There must be a political agreement among Iraqis that allows all groups to participate in the building of their nation, to share in its resources and to live in peace with each other. But without greater security imposed by the United States military and the Iraqi Army, there can be no political solution. As Americans and Iraqis sacrifice to provide that security, Iraq’s leaders must do the hard work of political reconciliation. We can help them get there, but we cannot assume their responsibilities. Unless they accept their own obligations to all Iraqis, we will all fail, and America, Iraq and the world will have to live with the terrible consequences. We are giving Iraq’s leaders and people the chance to have a better future, but they must seize it.
It is thus obvious that McCain understands that the war will not ultimately be won on the battlefield. It is worth noting, however, that since McCain gave that speech, civilian casualties have plummeted and the Iraqi government has been taking steps toward political reconciliation. It is of particular note that Prime Minister al-Maliki’s military crackdown on the Mahdi Army in Basra promoted political reconciliation, because Bai invokes a “Vietnamization” analogy to suggest that Basra was a failure — even though the New York Times itself has acknowledged the successes of that operation.ÂÂ
The establishment media’s early coverage of the Basra offensive was much like its coverage of the Tet offensive: dead wrong and militarily ignorant. Bai is still clinging to that bad old reportage because about 1,000 Iraqi soldiers deserted early on (mostly green troops from a newly formed brigade), ignoring that the New York Times pegged this at only four percent of the total Iraqi forces involved in the battle of Basra.
More broadly, Bai’s anonymous “some” are imposing their personal perspectives of Vietnam onto the conflict in Iraq, regardless of the myriad differences between the two conflicts. It is the narrative of people whose personal experiences have helped lead them to uncritically accept myths about invincible guerrillas and insurgents  myths that US Naval War College Professor Donald Stoker argues are a direct result of America’s collective misunderstanding of its defeat in South Vietnam. As I wrote of the media in “The Big Picture(s)”:
Moreover, as Prof. Stoker noted in the January 2007 issue of Foreign Policy, history shows that insurgents rarely win, though victory over an insurgency usually requires a decade, on average. A Dupuy Institute study for the DoD showed that even post-World War II insurgencies lost 60% of the time. Of course, each conflict is unique, and the differences are as important as the similarities. Yet this only underscores the problem of the establishment media perpetuating the single case of Vietnam to frame its “big picture†of the conflict in Iraq.
That Stoker is a professor at the Naval War College is serendipitous to the fact that when McCain returned home from Vietnam, he chose to study counter-insurgency — including criticism of US tactics in Vietnam — at the prestigious National War College. That study — which neither Bai nor his anonymous “some” appear to have undertaken — led McCain to conclude (as military historians like Lewis Sorley have) that the counter-insurgency strategy pursued by Gen. Creighton Abrams starting in 1968 was largely successful but ultimately undercut by the continually shrinking domestic political support for the war in the US (again recognizing the political component of counter-insurgency). Bai’s derogatory reference to “Vietnamization” suggests he disagrees, though he never provides evidence or argument to back his dismissive attitude.
Sadly, this is no surprise. Bai gets away with tossing around facile Vietnam analogies, armchair psychoanalysis and skewed characterizations of the Basra offensive because it is of a piece with what his comrades in the establishment media have done since before the invasion of Iraq. All it requires is ignorance, laziness, arrogance and a progressive bias against US military actions – qualities found in abundance within the establishment media.
(h/t Ed Morrissey, who notes that Bai also manages to exaggerate Max Cleland’s service record.)
Update: I have posted an addendum in response to the general thrust of the comments to this post.
“The only important lesson from the Vietnam War is this: Democrats lose warsâ€Â
-Ann Coulter
I did not read that as some smack on McCain. Yes, the people who have consistently opposed the war in Iraq and want it to end today are hitting him hard for not softening his position on Iraq. But I don’t see the mainstream contempt for his position that you see. He is seen as a really genuine, thoughtful man whose convictions come from experience and careful analysis. It is recognized that he is the furthest thing from the last eight years of Supreme Chickenhawkery and faux warrior fabulists.
I agree that the use of “some say” is vile. But it has been de rigeur for Fox News and the New York Post for years. Once upon a time, professors teaching journalism would teach that uttering such a phrase as a journalist was the equivalent of writing “I’m stupid, kick me” on your forehead. Yet another depressing marker of the mainstreaming of stupidity. But hey, it is Fair and Balanced so its great right?
“McCain did not share the disillusioning and morally jarring experiences of soldiers like Kerry, Webb and Hagel, who found themselves unable to recognize their enemy in the confusion of the jungle”
McCain’s has the moral clarity of someone who was actually tortured by our enemies. The same sort of amoral monsters who are trying to take over Iraq.
As an aside, I’d like to say that the authors invoking John Kerry in this context is disgusting, to say the least.
I am not a great fan of John McCain – I will have to hold my nose to vote for in November – but for Bai to suggest that McCain was spared the horrors experienced by Webb and Kerry (which is obviously wat Bai is implying, through the “some say” device) is despicable.
And, Lisa, if you weren’t so malicious, you would just be silly.
#3: John Kerry did actually serve in Vietnam. It is somewhat relevant to invoke him when writing an article about various politicians who served in Vietnam and their experience and attitudes about Vietnam. I know that in the past eight years, there has been an attempt to train us to think that actual service in Vietnam = cowardice, that learning to fly planes stateside = brave combat experience, that 2+2=5, that Ignorance is Strength, that War is Peace, and that Freedom is Slavery. But I am still not buying it.
#4: That is not “obviously” what he is implying. That is what you are implying.
He is saying that their experiences in Vietnam were different, coloring their viewpoints on Iraq. There was no value judgement in that.
Maybe try attempting to READ the article then try again, son.
Again, utterly judicious selective data from the MSM that reactionaries disdain. Thanks for acknowledging that the NYTimes is objective most of the time. Now accusing Matt Bai of being of an elite “comrade”…that’s another myth.
e.g. How’s it that Cindy McCain’s refusal to share her tax returns is met with Nada from the MSM while Ms. Teresa Ketchup Kerry was
excoriated for her wealth?
Of course one can wonder why Matt’s never seen a movie by the lovely Audrey Hepburn…although I guess I’ve only seen parts of one or two…so? another example of a Socialist dominated media?
I can only gather that the screed above is yet again an example of Militaristic NeoFascist drivel that excludes the knowledge of one million or more Iraqis dying at the US’s mishandled Cold War strategy that encouraged and fostered Saddam Hussein, (and others such as Idi Amin, Papa Doc, Somosa of Nicaragua, Mobuto– of “Zaire” who’s legacy has killed probably more Africans than anyone since the Congo was ruled by the Belgium King). In Vietnam only the corrupt elite minority was in support of American intervention. The majority would have voted for Ho back in the 50s but the USA refused to allow elections (with France’s backing) as that would have surely elected Ho Chi Minh as the leader of the country. Remember the corrupt leadership of Southern Nam, the francophile colonial elites who dominated and denied the rights of Buddhists (even causing the monks to occasionally kill themselves in protest). The class of “Rentier” landowners who kept the rice paddies in poverty and enslaved the ‘serfs’ making peasants ripe pickings for the Viet Cong organizers. The elites of Nam that the US supported were very much the same type of military families that now ‘serve’ as leadership in Burma. Or El Salvador.
Another Karlist screed of reactionary anti-Democrat partisanship…go for it as that’s what this website is about. But it’s not Classical Liberal at all. It’s called military intervention which is not Capitalistic unless there’s a profit in it. If we’d not intervened in Vietnam …perhaps we’d saved 3 million in deaths and Vietnam would have been a regional counterweight to China that much sooner? Dominoes be damned.
Still fighting the Cold War against mythical enemies? Our enemies have always been mainly from the Right: Slave holders domestic, Fascism of the mid-20th century…. (the two enemies that inflicted the most casualties and now the Oligarchs in their speculative wringing of profits from a declining Middle Class in the USA. The enemies from the Left which I acknowledge as Communists whithered away comparatively without much of a fight.
The Vietnam War was stupid as is the Iraqi incursion for similar reasons: no reason to fight as neither “enemy” was a threat to American domestic interests…and both ‘wars’ have had a negative effect on American living standards while profiting a narrow group of Neo-Fascist profiteers who are part of that famous military-industrial complex. Funny how Right-wingers love war and profit from it.
As for McCain, many Vietnam vets seem to disdain his “captivity” as they think he was actually given privileges due to his ‘elite’ status….there was no reason or threat of Communists killing him as they thought he was too powerful of a bargaining chip due to his Son of Admiral status. I don’t think he was in too much danger except from possibly being accidentally bombed by the US jets bombing Hanoi…but he wasn’t treated nicely either. The Black Flag waving Rambos are wrong about McCain being a traitor I think…however they focus on him more than either of us. He is hated by a group of ‘Nam vets probably for their own ignorant and biased reasons. The Fog of War.
Sorry Lisa, but I’m afraid the UN is going to write a stern letter telling you how dismayed they are at your use of genocidal tactics in the land of Strawmania.
Really, what did the Strawmen do to warrant such thrashings?
Supreme Chickenhawkery and faux warrior fabulists
You can do better than this, Lisa. I am disappointed.
that learning to fly planes stateside = brave combat experience
I think that our point has been that learning to fly one of the most dangerous planes of its generation stateside does not equate to chickenhawkery or going AWOL.
Did you not sleep well last night?
Dave, take a stress pill, sit down and try to relax.
#5 Lisa
Do you ever stray from getting your “information” mainlined from the kosskiddies or democratunderground?
Kerry – volunteered for the swiftboats because at the time of his volunteering they were NOT patrolling Vietnam’s rivers, that changed later. Plus his incountry time was four months.
GW – volunteered to training on a jet that was being deployed to Vietnam, but changed later.
And the dragging out of the mendacious Chickenhawk meme is SO 2004.
While I can see that there might be a point to be made about Kerry’s experience vs. that of McCain, I don’t see that that necessarily makes Kerry, Webb or Hagel morally, intellectually, or otherwise superior to McCain.
And, really, it’s not as if Kerry was Army or anything. Let’s not mistake Kerry’s service for some slice of Platoon, ok? Kerry just didn’t spend a whole lot of time patrolling the jungle on foot, and rubbing elbows with villagers.
Oh? You’re evidently privy to some information feed that I’m not, because I don’t get that at all. But…wait a second; do you mean to tell me that John Kerry served in Vietnam? You’d never know by listening to the guy.
Side note: there does seem to be some confusion, still, as to whose medals those were that Kerry threw over the White House wall. It’s not Kerry’s service in Vietnam that has most people annoyed, it’s what he’s said and done about that service since he returned.
As for McCain, many Vietnam vets seem to disdain his “captivity†as they think he was actually given privileges due to his ‘elite’ status
datafucker has trotted this meme before. “many Vietnam vets seem to” strikes me as about as intellectually serious as “some say”. The facts of his experience fly in the face of your assertion. As always, you are full of bile at an early hour. Step away from the huka.
…that was more dangerous to fly than McCain’s Navy jet, from what I’ve heard.
FWIW, of course both McCain and GWB (had he been deployed to Vietnam) would certainly have had a much different experience than soldiers on the ground. It’s not because it was Vietnam, it’s because of the nature of the difference between flying jet planes against clearly marked enemy jet planes, and carrying a rifle on the ground while enemy soldiers try to kill you from cover.
I understand and appreciate that difference without having experienced either version of war first-hand.
Who? Let’s hear some names, dave.
Can’t be. We would have heard.
My teenage reminders of the nasty anti-war movement during Vietnam is what has today enlightened me to leave that ‘brain-dead’ liberalism in the shit hole where it belongs.
“no reason to fight as neither “enemy†was a threat to American domestic interests…and both ‘wars’ have had a negative effect on American living standards while profiting a narrow group of Neo-Fascist profiteers who are part of that famous military-industrial complex”
See, this is a shithead example of a ‘brain-dead’ liberal which drove even Mamet to see the light.
datadave, your re-thread, brain-dead, shithead has been done to death since the 1968 shitheads began spewing their shit all over the place.
Can you fucking Moveon.org for a fucking Change!
many Vietnam vets seem to disdain his “captivity†as they think he was actually given privileges due to his ‘elite’ status…
Yep, permanent physical disability is SUCH a privilege! The loving beatings McCain took was far less searing, searing than a Christmas eve in the waters of Cambodia.
[…] In a North Vietnamese basement, and other distortions of Vietnam and Iraq picked apart by Karl at Protein Wisdom. […]
Again, I want to caution folks against going with the dangerous-jet argument. Sure, the F-102 was extremely dangerous early in its production cycle, but the danger subsided after some design changes were effected. By the time Bush first stepped into one, the F-102 was much safer.
But still at least twice as dangerous as stepping into an F-16, IIRC. I’d have to dig out the safety records, again.
This sort of thing was fairly typical for fighter aircraft produced in the 1950s-1970s. Since there weren’t decent computers or digital models, design flaws were mostly discovered when someone (or a few someones) died. So flying a new jet was inherently much more dangerous than flying a jet with several years of design revisions in it.
I give you guys credit for making it through Dataless’s comment. I’m stuck in a coffeehouse for six hours while my car is being fixed, and I’m still too bored to slog through hit.
Slart
For a mere civilian like me, I don’t see how driving any fighter jet is NOT dangerous … I get disoriented on a rollcoaster!
#3 daughter’s boyfriend is training on F18s.
During those years, McCain did not share the disillusioning and morally jarring experiences of soldiers like Kerry,
snicker. Experiences that are SEARED into his memory …
“Comment by Lisa on 5/15 @ 6:55 am #
#3: John Kerry did actually serve in Vietnam.”
Yeah, and Benedict Arnold was a war hero , too.
#9: I am sure it is disappointing to you. Having that pointed out is always painful. But the employing the old “Oh you are disappointing me, little girl” is not exactly going to make me sniffle then change my mind.
I never mentioned the AWOL meme. I was talking about the broad contempt for Kerry as some sort of coward, while slobbering in admiration for someone who ADMITTED that they did not elect to serve in Vietnam. That strawman wasn’t even necessary, JD.
Darleen:
It is a fact that he did check the box “I do not elect to serve overseas” on his application to serve in the Texas Air National Guard It is a fact that he said in an interview that he DIDN’T want to serve in Vietnam, but didn’t want to run to Canada so he thought serving in the Air National Guard was a compromise that would help him to better himself. It amuses me that you go from zero to shreiking harpy so fast about pointless details (that you often get wrong).
He is saying that their experiences in Vietnam were different, coloring their viewpoints on Iraq. There was no value judgement in that.
What he is saying, Lisa, is that McCains judgements -now- are based on experiences in Vietnam that are somehow less-true than Kerry’s and the gang. All the while, patting him on the head. Yes, dear, I know it was hard in that prison and all, but you didn’t know what it was like out on that Swiftboat for all those four months.
I never mentioned the AWOL meme. I was talking about the broad contempt for Kerry as some sort of coward, while slobbering in admiration for someone who ADMITTED that they did not elect to serve in Vietnam. That strawman wasn’t even necessary, JD.
See, Lisa, THAT is the strawman. Conservatives haven’t exactly argued that Kerry was a coward. They’ve merely rejected the idea that he was a Hero with vast military experience. They’ve rejected the version of his Vietnam experience that he’s thrown out there.
Well at least Obama doesn’t have to worry about this. He was still being trained in madrasa during Vietnam.
I’m addressing the difference between “dangerous” and “one of the most dangerous”, Darleen.
F-18: Hornet or Super Hornet?
I’ve got all kinds of regard for pilots (or aviators, depending on which branch of the service you’re in). I have fairly frequent contact with them, and although there is some element to the swagger-stereotype, for the most part they’re the smartest, most aware and most thorough people you’re ever likely to encounter.
Mostly because the other kind wash out in training. Those ones are the lucky ones, because leakers tend to wind up dead.
I have fairly frequent contact with pilots because I’m in the targeting pod business, and we’ve integrated our system to most of the fighter aircraft in service, as well as some other airplanes that you might not expect (like A-10, B-1, and B-52) to be carrying precision attack targeting sensors. Our pod also flies on F-18s in Canada. USN has their own F-18 targeting pod program that’s kept us out, so far.
Now this is going to really annoy the hell out of you, but I really have to say it. So here goes:
I find it interesting that the very people who decry the ubersensitivity of the politically correct cranks spend inordinant amounts of time trying find (or fabricate) an insult in articles like this (and guns and bitterness and Jesus or whatever the hell that was about). I am seeing two sides of the same coin – the liberal Perpetually Insulted and the conservative Perpetually Insulted – both of you laboring hard to maintain your constant state of outrage (but always complaining about each other as fucking whiners).
Let the denouncement begin.
#28: LMAO!!!
So it is chickenhawky to serve in the Air National Guard?
Lisa – I said nada, zero, zip, zifr about Kerry. Never have I called him a coward. Not agreeing with him politically, and loathing his actions after he left the service do not equate with denigrating his service.
Not only do I denounce you, but I repudiate you, in the most gobsmackingly vile manner possible.
#26: I guess it could be seen that way. I read the complete NYT Magazine article then read Karl’s analysis. Then I read it again after Karl’s analysis. I read a lot more into the article the second time around.
I am just sayin’.
SO was I! Only we didn’t call it madrassa, or escolar, or even Schule where I grew up. We called it school.
Darleen is on the Front Against the Mexican Invasion. Honor her Patriotism for her putting bad check writers and dish washers behind bars. Thanks to people like her the US has the largest prison population in the world.
Bush avoided active service in ‘Nam. Kerry’s (both of them) choose to put themselves in harm’s way out of patriotism. But John Kerry’s greatest patriotic act was to protest the bad leadership in “Nam”. Too bad he ran away from that bravery on his part as the MSM was and is into hating the “Hippies”.
Slart..continue to lie about it. I know a few vets and also you can go on the Web and find lots of disagreeable POW/MIA black flaggers getting all upset about McCain as he didn’t buy into their bogus claims of Vietnamese keeping POWs long past the war’s ending. McCain took the high road on that issue. No other country bent over backwards to find American MIAs as much as the Vietnamese…even though they’d been carpet bombed by Agent Orange and more munitions than dropped during all of WW2.
Of course we could have won the war. Bombing them back to the Stone Age. That’s Karlist tactics. But what good would that have done except making the USA look like more of a bully than we already are with our Bully Texan President?
off to work for a military guy who’s retired in mid 50s and making millions getting married to a rich daughter of the Oligarchy. Really, the only bright spot in the economy is the military-industrial complex. (and Drugs). But that’s on borrowed money..our social security taxes are used to pay for Iraq btw. That’s the main “bank” for the Republican Corporate State of Bundled twigs (Fascists). *and add that Texas oil guys are making out big on the ripping off the rest of the country with their monopolies on oil. Thank You, Presidents Bush and Cheney both from Texas.
Lisa,
Better to just lack curiosity than to be a whiner right?
(and guns and bitterness and Jesus or whatever the hell that was about)
Yeah, whatever the hell that was about. But at least you ain’t whining. So that’s something.
“There were some minor aerodynamic problems with the F-102. For example, at certain power settings and angles of attack, like, say, take-off — the jet compressor would stall and the aircraft would roll inverted. It is no picnic, skill-wise, to fly a modern F-16 with advanced avionics and fly-by-wire flight control systems. The workload on the F-102 was far higher. The F-16 has an accident rate of 4.14 occurrences per 100,000 flight hours. The F-102’s accident rate was more than three times that: 13.69 per 100,000 hours. 875 F-102A interceptors were built; 259 – almost 30% – were lost to accidents or enemy action while serving in Vietnam.
George W. Bush flew hundreds of hours in the F-102.”
-Bill Whittle
http://www.ejectejecteject.com/archives/000136.html
Se3e the section called “WAR OF THE BUMPER STICKERS”
I like Bill’s conclusion:
“So to me, anyway, given the above information I feel that anyone calling President Bush a moron and an idiot comes off sounding like-well-a moron and an idiot.”
I had a dog, once. Oh, and you’re still a lying sack of shit.
I like dave. It takes a good deal of talent to do parody that well, IMO.
Not only do I denounce you, but I repudiate you, in the most gobsmackingly vile manner possible.
who gets the honor??? Lisa? I thought you liked her. I’ll take it if no one else will.
I hope Karl doesn’t mind being called a “Karlist”. The far Right has always seemed to be enamored with royal privilege such as the late Bill Buckley… as in his novels assuming that the Carlists of Germany were opposed to Hitler or something.
the only bright spot in the economy is the military-industrial complex.
Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner!
Shorter dave
Boooosh…Hitler…OIL…DarthCheney
“#
Comment by Darleen on 5/15 @ 8:03 am #
Shorter dave
Boooosh…Hitler…OIL…DarthCheney”
“Barkeep, another shot of the Wild Turkey.”
There, fixed it for you.
Slart
dave knows a few vets like his has a few friends that are Jews
i think of slart fest or something….some sort of Uberfartfest in November when a bunch of fat retard wingers get together in a hunting camp and refuse to open the doors and windows while watching Fox News and they then eat the vilest stew of baby brains, knockwurst’s, donkey dinks, with denoted organs from impoverished Salvadorians and Haitians… and seeing who can stink up the room enough for one of them to say “Uncle” and run out of the camp in dishonor and infamy while the rest of the survivors pat themselves on their backs for their bravery and honor! SlartFest!
and maybe we have high prison rates because we tend to try and keep our murderers in prison.
datadave.
while I share your views on futility and waste those wars ( Vietnam, Iraq ) were in human sacrifice plus economical damage, please, stop with that “fascist” crap.
Some passages from your rant remind me the
the front page anti-imperialistic columns from Pravda, circa 1970-1980th
Quick thought experiment:
What would be the reaction if the article were written with the exact same evidence, but the opposite argument? To wit: “Cut off from the relentless news coverage of escalating body counts, escalating histrionics from the war protestors, and escalating political chaos in Washington, McCain’s perspective on the war retains a certain clarity lacking in that of some of his fellow Congressmen who served.”
Surely nobody would object to such a formulation of the evidence at hand, would they?
O’Brain…wish you were buying. Had some homemade Carmencita last night…not much since. Off to go see the Married UP! VET with his millions.
iirc, that is because ALL National Guard people do this. It had nothing to do with Vietnam.
because going overseas one weekend a month is kinda difficult.
#32: #3: John Kerry did actually serve in Vietnam. It is somewhat relevant to invoke him when writing an article about various politicians who served in Vietnam and their experience and attitudes about Vietnam. I know that in the past eight years, there has been an attempt to train us to think that actual service in Vietnam = cowardice, that learning to fly planes stateside = brave combat experience, that 2+2=5, that Ignorance is Strength, that War is Peace, and that Freedom is Slavery. But I am still not buying it.
I never went for the Bush was AWOL meme. He was perfectly honest about what he did and why he did it. What I despised was the value judgement placed on HIS service versus Kerry’s service (because Kerry ended up opposing the war and throwing his medals away, therefore he really never served – hey let’s find some old guys to say that he never actually served in combat and that his medals were fake! woot woot, good times). That shit was ugly.
But I will concede one point: I did place a value judgement on Bush’s service. He volunteered for some form of service (with the real risk of actually being deployed – though he elected stateside service). He admitted not being wild about going to Vietnam. He was never a liar or an out and out draft-dodger-cum-warmonger (like some I could name).
thanks to the NRA we do have the highest murder rate in the Industrialized world…but still that’s only a small portion of the pop. behind bars. Pretty lame argument, dearest.
It’s do to the high rate of incarceration of non-violent ‘criminals’: drug users, bad check writers, parole violators, etc. that in most nations are dealt with in a domestic setting (fines, corrective social services) while in the USA it’s the prison lobby and lawyers getting rich of higher incarceration. You did say you were a lawyer right?
And we do have the highest percentage of lawyers too. Another reason!
#37: Ahhhh, but her premise is not exactly repudiated….she might be on to something.
fun to play…but don’t get in tissy…gotta go see that rich guy and the plumber too…if he ever shows up!!
“with the real risk of actually being deployed – though he elected stateside service)”
As a point of fact, he did volunteer to go to VietNam.
Liar.
What I despised was the value judgement placed on HIS service versus Kerry’s service (because Kerry ended up opposing the war and throwing his medals away, therefore he really never served – hey let’s find some old guys to say that he never actually served in combat and that his medals were fake! woot woot, good times).
But who started that? Who trotted out Bush’s military experience? He didn’t run on his war record. It wasn’t an issue until the liberals brought it up to beat it down. Of course, then, it was defended by those who supported Bush.
Because it was the National Guard. RTO did the same thing.
Dave don’t you dare steal my denouncement – I am an avid collector. And I am putting the repudiation up on my mantle to admire, after I frame it.
Those “old guys” served alongside Kerry.
Geezus, Lisa, it’s not like they were just randomly drawn off the street. One of those “old guys” had been debating Kerry since shortly after he returned from Vietnam.
thanks to the NRA we do have the highest murder rate in the Industrialized world…but still that’s only a small portion of the pop. behind bars. Pretty lame argument, dearest.
I heard an interesting stat the other day -if you exclude crimes committed by African Americans – the US violent crime rate is the same as Canada’s. There is something at play there, but I think we can safely exclude the NRA from blame.
#56: No he didnt. Liar.
Actually, we don’t. Stop making shit up, or at least educate yourself to realize when people are lying to you.
(And it’s not the NRA’s fault; how could it be? The places with the most murders are the places where they have the least influence.)
Yes, he did.
Double-liar.
thanks to the NRA we do have the highest murder rate in the Industrialized world
Yup, those murderers share no role in this.
Carin I am talking about the last election cycle in general. Which was the premise of my original post. That we turned reality upside down to acheive a political goal “I hate that guy, therefore I am just going to pretend that what happened really didn’t happen”. It was fucking Orwellian. Like Winston Smith was sitting at his desk busily changing reality for The Party at the Ministry of Truth.
#65: No he didn’t. Liar liar panties on fire.
Lisa – I denounce myself for not making it clear that I was denouncing you. That dataless tried to weasel in on your denouncement shows the extent of how gobsmackingly vile he is.
#65: All murderers get their daily to-do list from the NRA. Didn’t you know this? Come on. Get with the times.
Lisa,
It’s not about cowardice with Kerry, it’s about the opportunitistic use of his military experience in his political carreer.
When it’s favorable to have served proudly, he’s proud.
When it’s favorable to have been a victim, he’s a victim.
When it’s favorable to lie and distort what those he served with, especially those who served at some remove from himself, he’s done that too.
Maybe that is cowardice after all, albeit intellectual cowardice.
And the mere mention of the word “chickenhawk” is is going to elicit comment. It is an intellectually bankrupt and indefensible argument to make, even to allude to, in US society.
And, Lisa, if you want some evidence:
From that great source of Bush love, wikipedia.
#54
I might repudiate it, but instead I think I’ll just pretend it doesn’t exist as that seems to be the acceptable course of action if one wishes to avoid being a whiner.
Since you were kind enough to give me this tactic, I think it would be important to share another one I have learned over the years. When you can’t ignore an issue, try to mitigate the importance of the issue by pointing to the relative lack of power or unimportance of the particular issue or person under discussion. Claims like “who is he?” or “hes hardly comparable to x, because he doesn’t have the same influence/power/standing”, or the absolute fallback of “he’s hardly representitive of…”.
#68: I accept your denouncement, good sir – as well as your repudiation (you have raised the bar here, I will have to work harder to maintain this exalted status).
But, Lisa these things cannot be taken out of context. Out of time. The Bush didn’t serve meme was started by people who hated him. To not respond would have been stupid. But, he never ran on his military record. But, when examined, it was honorable. And, he did volunteer. He joined the Guard. Guard members get sent into war. That he choose in what capacity he wished to serve shouldn’t be viewed as a negative.
‘Comment by Lisa on 5/15 @ 6:55 am #
#3: John Kerry did actually serve in Vietnam. It is somewhat relevant to invoke him when writing an article about various politicians who served in Vietnam and their experience and attitudes about Vietnam. I know that in the past eight years, there has been an attempt to train us to think that actual service in Vietnam = cowardice, that learning to fly planes stateside = brave combat experience, that 2+2=5, that Ignorance is Strength, that War is Peace, and that Freedom is Slavery. But I am still not buying it.”
C’mon, Lisa. Cut the crap.
You are too smart to be spewing this ridiculous leftist bullshit.
You can believe what you want about Kerry and the “Swiftboaters” (even though they made him change his “biography” at least four times), but I thought that Bush crap was put to rest with Dan Rather’s stinking carcass.
You are obviously intelligent enough to find out the truth of Bush’s service, so why don’t you bother to do it?
And “Kos” and “Democratic Underground” are not legitimate places of research. Sweetie. (Sorry. I really would never dream of saying something like that, but I just couldn’t help myself from tweaking The Big O there).
Really…
BDS is not good for anyone’s soul…
#72: All excellent, proven tactics in public discourse, education guy. You are an apt puplil with a bright future in this racket.
You mean like the left ignored Kerry’s behavior after Vietnam? Ignoring his association with people who plotted assassinations? Ignoring his private negotiations with a government we were then at war with? Ignoring his false accusations of war crimes? Ignoring the lies he repeated for decades, like his magic hat and his remembering a speech by “President Nixon” before Nixon was in office?
From the right, I heard lots of “yes, he served. but look at the reality of his service, and put it in light with what he did later.” From the left I heard lots of “Bushitler”, “chickenhawk”, and “I’m John Kerry, and I’m ready for duty!”
dave, slobbering drunk is not a socially acceptable way of starting out your Thursday. I suggest you sleep it off.
#75: I am going to ignore your entire post because you appear not to be addressing me but some flashback to a prior argument with someone on Kos or DU (neither of which I frequent – you probably know more about them than I do).
Sidles nervously away from you.
It is recognized that he [McCain] is the furthest thing from the last eight years of Supreme Chickenhawkery and faux warrior fabulists.
Naw. But what might someone truely be whose [totally confabulated Messianic] proxy would surrender in the face of an evolving victory in Iraq, and in the face of this same “chicken-supreme” policy’s perfect record of defending the U.S. from further 9/11-like attacks – to those who would otherwise either kill or enslave us/everyone.
Lisa, in the real world, your all too convenient armchair brand of completely denialist “Saviorism” is actually nothing more than the same old, garden variety “Chicken dhimmi” – as popularized by Neville Chamberlain, for example.
“It is a fact that he did check the box “I do not elect to serve overseas†on his application to serve in the Texas Air National Guard…”
Yes. And he was applying for a specific position in a fighter wing in Texas. Had he check that box, he would not have got the position he was applying for. I’ve been a National Guard Clerk and I’ve advised others on filling out the modern version of that application.
[…] article Karl links to is indeed a horrible piece of trash. Share and Enjoy: These icons link to social […]
#Comment by Rob Crawford on 5/15 @ 8:30 am #
Thanks, Rob.
I withdraw my liar comment.
However, she remains blinded by BDS.
A shame, really.
And as regards John Kerry, to me (as a Navy vet) two things stand out:
–The Left has spent the last few decades sneering at “Rambo”. At one point Kerry abandoned his command to the hands of a junior enlisted man, to grab an M16 and don a bandolier to go bounding through the village in pursuit of Cong. Whether or not he was bare-chested at the time is not known, at least to me.
–There are somewhat fewer than three hundred people in all the world who can legitimately be described as “Swift Boat Veterans”. Of those, over three-quarters were prepared to go on the public record (a remarkable statistic in itself), and of those, all but a handful (five?) opined that John Kerry is an asshole not fit for the office of President. Say what you will about the individual charges levied, that sort of judgement from people who knew him at a formative stage in his life seems to me worth listening to.
Regards,
Ric
Lisa @ 62
The Washington Post disagrees.
#77: Yeah I already said that the Bush as a chickenhawk thing was unfair. And I am sorry for pulling his duty into the whole thing. I did what I was criticizing: Don’t like the actions of a group? Pick someone from that group and smack him around and demean him and compare him unflatteringly to someone else.
That said, there are people who continue to steam my ass with their phoney protestations of faux lapel-pin patriotism and constant accusations of others as traitors and dilettantes unwilling to serve their country – but whose own record of personal sacrifice when they were asked to do so fall woefully short of the mark. That is probably the one thing that I find difficult to dismiss airily – it burns me up.
#80: What. The. Fuck? Savioralist? What are you talking about man?
#79:
Thank you Lisa. Since your comment allows me to show more (non whining) rhetorical tactics, I will.
First, your reference to me as an “apt pupil” is clearly meant to invoke the sort of Nazi sympathies that are found in the short story of the same name. I am hereby putting you on notice that it is beyond all levels of decency that you would compare me to a Nazi. (Please note that your intention will/must take a backseat to my assertion that you mean what I say you mean. In any case your treachery will be obvious to all who read it)
Second, you misspelled pupil as puplil, and as such I must therefore disregard everything it is you are attempting to say. Sorry, tough break.
Interesting how BDS necessarily requires an equally psychotic Messianic “cure”, wot?
#85: You believe the reviled Washington Post over a document filled out by the man himself? Well damn. (Watches a pig fly by her window).
Seriously, you are probably right. He probably did end up asking to be deployed at some point. Good on him if he did.
#88: Too ba
#88: Woops! Sorry for #91.
Too bad, #79 was so clever. Such is life, n’est pas?
ISTR a story (I read it in Heinlein; he didn’t give much in the way of detail, but I don’t think he made it up) from the War of 1812 of a junior ensign tried for dereliction of duty for carrying a wounded senior officer below decks. Apparently he was the senior unwounded officer onboard, and leaving the deck meant he was abandoning his post.
Not saying that Kerry should have been tried for dereliction of duty. Just that his behavior wasn’t unabashedly heroic.
Ohhh Peden. Yes, that’s it. I have Bush Derangement Syndrome that can only be cured by my messianic enthrallment with Obama (or some other purported Marxist crank).
Cool. I will keep you posted on my ongoing recovery process.
Two didffernt moments in his life. The document was what he filled out when he applied for a guard position, not yet trained and not yet deployable. The request to volunteer came later after he had completed training and such and was, you know, deployable.
Checking that box on the form, would likely have derailed his carrer and he’d have been sent to become a Military Police or Maintenace officer instead of a pilot, carreer choices that would not take teh time or resources to accomplish and whould afford him teh opportunity to server overseas that he was asking for, much sooner.
You should see Soldiers struggle with that option on the form. Some look like they may cry when you tell them that if they do not check “do not volunteer” they will not get what they are applying for. They are certain it means that they are trying to get over on serving or will be held against them later. I used to be able to tell them that it can’t be held against them….
Oh, and I selected Washington (Com)Post, becasue I didn’t think YOU would accept WorldNetDaily. I try to know my audience.
#83: Okay. I withdraw mine too. Apparently he did indicate that he was willing to go some point after he started flying. Neither you are Rob are liars, nor are you wearing panties that are on fire (you may or may not be wearing panties – to each his own, right?).
Lisa,
It’s hard for me to discern clever, what with you constantly accusing me of being a Nazi (please notice the evolution of the claim here), and showing clear treasonous behavior by writing something in *spit* french *spit*.
Lisa, if you just keep posting here, I will be adequately updated on your progress.
Lisa, I highly recommend you read the link at my #38.
Just to clarify matters.
#99: Will do Peden. I will, as they say in the recovery community, keep coming back. I have to go find a sponsor now (heads over to Messianic Headquarters at Huffington Post).
Speaking of Chickenhawks, Chicken Littles, Chicken dhimmis, Whusses, and such: if the seemingly completely-lacking-in-a-self-defense instinct/response B.O. weren’t such a potential danger qua President, I’d pity the poor sucker: just what kind of person would it be who could live with Michelle and survive? To simply say that politically he is merely a “useful dhimmi” would be putting it way too mildly. The man just might in fact already need some kind of intervention in order to escape even his current captors grip. No wonder all he wants to do is “negotiate”. He’s done been whupped.
constant accusations of others as traitors and dilettantes unwilling to serve their country – but whose own record of personal sacrifice when they were asked to do so fall woefully short of the mark.
Examples?
#98: You are really coming along at a very impressive clip, Education Guy. The subtle evolution of an insult (especially a cleverly ‘devined’ one) into a lifelong, relentless event is Advanced Sophistry. I have to say that you show a natural talent that outstrips even my own considerable abilities in this area.
It is easier to just called them moonbats and twatwaffles. lolcat.
Just now waking up, so I have question: which one of you guys gave datadave directions to my lair? Poor fellow is sprawled out in a pool of Ouzo vomit, his pants around his ankles, and the sea monkey king is smoking a cigarette and watching Montel with a sly, satisfied grin on his face.
CLEANUP ON AISLE CRAZY!
uh, Jeff, you’re just now noticing him? guess the Sea-Monkey King’s been keeping him well hidden in the closet.
As to the question of a Chickenhawk’s right to speak, I question whether Lisa has even registered for the Draft!
There’s a draft in here?
or more like in that big treasure chest with the lid that bobs up and down.
The odd thing about datadave is that he seems more coherent in the evening, when I suspect he is merely drunk.
#104 Lisa you are making me blush. I’ve always wanted to be compared to the ancient Greeks – guys like Plato, Socrates, Bill & Ted, and Zorba.
Why blame us? Sounds like he and the armored rat were partying, and the rat decided to play a prank.
#103: One very funny example is this: Tom “The Negroes Took My Spot on the Front Line” DeLay – he once demanded that Kerry show him his service diaries, as the charges of Kerry’s possible fabulism were “troubling” to him.
Here’s what the Houston Press reported on how Tom’s excused his numerous Vietnam deferrments (from a press conference in 1988):
He and Quayle, DeLay explained to the assembled media in New Orleans, were victims of an unusual phenomenon back in the days of the undeclared Southeast Asian war. So many minority youths had volunteered for the well-paying military positions to escape poverty and the ghetto that there was literally no room for patriotic folks like himself. Satisfied with the pronouncement, which dumbfounded more than a few of his listeners who had lived the sixties, DeLay marched off to the convention.
That continues to tickle the hell out of me.
#112: LOL! Excellent!
So, Lisa, did DeLay get to see Kerry’s diaries?
And when is Kerry going to release his complete service records? We’ve been waiting damned near 4 years…
Heh.
dd bobs up and down.
How dare you imply he’s a traitor!
Tom Delay did like to blow large-caliber holes in his own feet, yes.
I never went for the Bush was AWOL meme. He was perfectly honest about what he did and why he did it. What I despised was the value judgement placed on HIS service versus Kerry’s service (because Kerry ended up opposing the war and throwing his medals away, therefore he really never served – hey let’s find some old guys to say that he never actually served in combat and that his medals were fake! woot woot, good times). That shit was ugly.
That’s an out and out lie. There was no value judgment placed on Kerry’s 4-months of vietnam service by the right until he made a point of RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT based entirely on that 4 months and nothing else, while his supporters and friends (including the media) denigrated Bush’s service, called him a coward and said he was AWOL.
To claim that somehow the right started that fight is so absolutely ridiculous. The left spent 1992 and 1996 teling us that military service did not matter as a qualification for president. then the left turned around in 2004 and said that not only did military service matter, but only Kerry’s 4 months in Vietnam qualified as legitimate service.
To claim that the blowback that Kerry suffered for this was anything but deserved is to lie in the face of all facts.
Now, after telling us how important serving in the military duing a war is as a qualification for president during the last election, the left is going to run someone who never served in the military at all and denigrate the service of someone who served for longer and with more honor than the left’s last presidential candidate.
The intellectual dishonesty and hypocrasy from the left is overwhelming. Not even talking about the issues here – I obviously disagree with the left on policy – just talking about the way the left conducts itself in its quest for power. It is absolutely frightening.
At least my positions remain the same regarding these issues from election to election. I think military service is an important experience for a presidential candidate to have had. I thought that in 1992, 1996, 2000, 2004, and now in 2008. Much like my policy positions, I don’t change my views on matters of character, service, etc., with the wind in order to support or denigrate certain candidates. No leftist I have encountered can make the same claim with a straight face.
Why is this? If your governing philosophy is so superior, why do you need to engage in such constant intellectual contortions in an attempt to elect a leftist? Why can’t you have some intellectual consistency to your positions? If your philosophy made sense, it would not require the amount of lying and hypocrasy to support it.
No, I don’t think he ever did show him his diaries. He might have showed him his hairy ass in lieu of that, which I am sure DeLay found deeply unsatisfying and insufficient as an answer to his inquiry.
“I think military service is an important experience for a presidential candidate to have had.”
Expressly military? I can’t agree.
It’s but one of several ways that someone who want’s to be acclaimed as a leader can have demonstrated that capacity beforehand, which is what’s important to me.
Obama’s more frightening to me than a brand new 2nd Lieutentant. The 2LT only gets one platoon to learn his leadership lessons on.
Lisa – Kerry fancies himself to be a modern metrosexual gigolo. I am sure that he has had his ass waxed. Tarayza would demand no less.
“Obama’s more frightening to me than a brand new 2nd Lieutentant. The 2LT only gets one platoon to learn his leadership lessons on.”
Plus, who would be Obama’s sergeant?
Kerry?
Here is one of my fundamental problems with the Dems, and the R’s have not been much better as of late. Look at Kerry, Edwards, Clinton, Baracky. They are patently unserious people. I do not know Lisa, but I suspect there is far more to her as a person that the whole lot of candidates that they have marched out. Outside of their desire to become President, there is just no there there.
RTO Trainer,
I don’t believe that not having served in the military is disqualifying for a presidential candidate. But, all things considered, I would prefer a candidate with such experience. Not necessarily b/c of developing leadership (althought that can be important), but to have an understanding of how the military works, how military people thing/feel, etc. I think that is helpful for a commander in chief.
But, I won’t simply discount someone who never served in the military.
My point was that after elections where the left completely and utterly discounted (and even, at times, denigrated) the military service of the right’s candidates, they then ran a candidate in 2004 who ran entirely on his 4 months in vietnam and denigrated Bush’s service in the Guard. The left told us in 2004 that only someone who had served in the military in combat should be eligible to be president.
Now, they have completely (once again) reversed course, and are running people with no service against someone with service, and are seeking ways to denigrate that service (i.e., he was in a POW camp, he didn’t know what was really going on, plus he was in no real danger in the POW camp).
An about-face that quick ought to be embaressing to the left. Or at least give them pause.
Plus, who would be Obama’s sergeant?
Jim Webb
Lisa, hate to tell you this, but quoting the Houston Press is not unlike quoting the HuffPo or some similar leftwingnut entity. The Press is one of those “alternative”/”indie”/”avante garde” weekly that most big cities have, and are far better known for their restaurant reviews and the kinky sex ads in the back, rather than for any news reporting, unless your thing runs to the usual proggie McChimpyBushitler/Cheney/HALLIBURTON/FBI/CIA/DAR fiendish conspiracy stories.
And a twenty-year-old “quote”? Sorry sweetie, but I’d have to see the gun camera film on that one. You will have to do better than this, as long as you are still stuck on this “chickenhawk” thing….
#123: LMAO!!! Oh you fucker. You are almost certainly correct though (wonders who the traumatized spa employee is and how much Xanax they now have to take whenever they think of that hideous job).
#128: You may or may not have a valid point. But he did make that statement in front of a crowd of journalists, none of whom refute the hilarious tale. You could be quite correct in taking it with a grain of salt. But it is funny.
Ah, James “George McGovern,–I don’t want us to win this war–Jr.” Webb?
Yeah. Great choice.
#128: I am not “stuck”. It was one of those fun diversions that comment threads are wont to take when a statement is made and someone (or a lot of people) take exception to an item and want to make some clarifications. I made a statement and lots of people said “Whoa, hold it right there, sugartits…lets discuss this Bush thing.” And here we are, 130 comments later. I win the National Blog Commenter’s Attention Whore Gold Star Award of the Day.
nishit – Is that the same Webb that write about meeting young boys, turning them upsidedown, and placing their crank in his mouth?
Lisa – I think that the job title of Kerry’s Ass Waxer is one of those jobs that an illegal immigrant would have to do, because Americans would not do that.
Lisa, saying that a “crowd of journalists, none of whom refute the hilarious tale” doesn’t mean jack either. To this day, there are still “journalists” out there who believe that J. Edgar Hoover was a crossdresser, even though a retired KGB colonel recently admitted that the Hoover crossdressing story was planted by the KGB to discredit him. And the American media sucked it right up.
Or all of those “journalists” who for years claimed that Ronald Reagan was such an idiot, because he once claimed that ballistic missiles could be recalled after launch. It took George Will, playing the actual tape of what Ronaldus Magnus actually said that day (which, of course, was nothing of the kind) to finally shut those moronic “journalists” up.
The crossdressing or recallable missiles stores were funny, too. Only problem is, they were also false.
FWIW, I denounce and condemn myself for going there.
Sugartits? Linkage is required if one is to self-annoint, just sayin,
anoint
Just sayin’.
/shrug
he’s a novelist.
he was also Regan’s secretary of the navy, and a decorated vietnam vet.
i thot you guyz weren’t actual homophobes here?
i mean, except for locke and mcgeehee.
Sugartits. Hmmm….:) Or should it be YUMMMMM….
I always figured Lisa was hawt, but now I really want to see some visual confirmation.
Not that I’m apt to get it, but it’s nice to dream…:)
Completely OT, but has anyone else considered my offer of hosting a getogether later this summer? That would include you Lisa. Dataless would have to promise to stay on his meds, and nishit would have to promise to not speak.
The competition is fierce around here for that coveted award. Wear it proudly.
Erm…homophobes? We do have issues with pedophilia; I think that’s more in line with the discussion. Call us noninclusive, so as to avoid pissing us Neanderthals off.
nishit – I love the bastardization of English that you peddle. It is not the least bit homophobic to note that it is disturbing for someone to write about meeting a young boy, turning him upside down, and placing the kid’s crank in his mouth. What, pray tell, is homophobic about that? I know I denounced myself, but I retract my denunciation because nishit’s comment warrants response.
I denounce you, JD, just for thinking the word “crank”, in a nonpharmaceutical connotation.
HOMOPHOBE!
JD, it would depend on my work schedule vis a vis when you all do it, but I’m up for that. I’d love to see if nishibaby is as big a dingbat in person as she portrays herself here…:)
(Nothing personal, hon…:)
Slarti – Is pedophiliaphobe more better than noninclusive neanderthal?
HOMOPHONES!
CaveBear – I am looking in late August.
Slarti – I cannot take credit for crank. I heard it on Jim Rome and almost had a wreck laughing so hard.
#139: That would be a lot of fun! I am interested.
Those are the pink ones, right, that have the High School Musical ringtones?
HOMOPHONES!
FYI, California ruling on “gay marriage” is in.
They are loving them some polar bears.
Slarti,
Who are you to rebut the conflation by the eminent scientist, sushi, of pedophilia and homosexuality? She undoubtedly possesses the data necessary to back up her claim and she has demonstrated (OK, asserted) that she is lead only by Reasonâ„¢ so there must be a clear rational path to her conclusion.
[…] Protein Wisdom – The Big Picture(s): “The John McCain Doctrines†edition [Karl] […]
[…] comments to my critique of Matt Bai’s New York Times Magazine profile of Sen. John McCain appear to have settled […]
As in, they apparently hinge the ruling on laws allowing a lesser sort of legal status for same-sex couples under the California constitution.
It seems as far as the court can see the government of California had no interest in defining some sort of special legal relationship between male/female couples and the state, that is, a marital relationship to include only that sort of pair bond where there could be ever be potential to produce children through sexual union . Its not like that’s anything important. It’s all about the
lovehealth insurance.Lisa – You could come visit, and see some bible-beating wild-eyed reich wingers in the flesh.
JD: Don’t forget us snake handlers, faith healers and massage therapists.
Lisa “#26: I guess it could be seen that way. I read the complete NYT Magazine article then read Karl’s analysis. Then I read it again after Karl’s analysis. I read a lot more into the article the second time around.”
So who needed to “try attempting to READ the article”? Sweetie? guess we see
I am just sayin’.
Dang – that should have read:
Lisa “#26: I guess it could be seen that way. I read the complete NYT Magazine article then read Karl’s analysis. Then I read it again after Karl’s analysis. I read a lot more into the article the second time around.â€Â
So who needed to “try attempting to READ the article� Sweetie?
BJ – Massage therapists are always welcome, as long as there is a happy ending.
JD #155
Oh! Oh! And planet rapers! Yea, real Gaia assaulters, the kind of people that light stogies with big lumps of high sulpher coal and only eat the ears of spotted oils while throwing away the rest of the carcass and heat their lands by pumping gallons of methane into the air and lighting it in fire.
Yea, Lisa: COME ON DOWN TO INDIANAPOLIS!!!
Father rapers. Father rapers right there on the group W bench.
We light our farts on fire too, BJ. Naturally produced methane.
And Lisa would be a fun addition to the gathering.
We are all just a bunch of racist sexist pedophiliaphobes here in Indy.
#155: Woot woot!
JD: Don’t forget us snake handlers, faith healers and massage therapists.
That is priceless. LOL!!!
dude, JD, it was a novel.
you want to censor literature?
see, that is the core theme of the republicans now that is turning me into a prog.
you want to tell us what to think….homosexuality is bad, science is bad, abortion is bad……
i get it.
nishi: That leap of logic you think you just took?
cliff
AAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No, nishi, JD and the rest of us don’t want to censor literature or ban science or outlaw homosexuality. You are mistaking us for the evil anime characters inside your head.
Seek. Professional. Help.
well, I suppose it’s better than killin’ babies and innocent, yet inconvenient people. and censoring religions you don’t like. and living forever with unicorns.
nishi- I would pay you $5 to write in your nishi-speak to the Obama campaign to explain your scientists war to the death on Christians, the idea that Scientists can police themselves with no ethical oversight, and your goal of transhumanism. Include your views on Israel and Africa.
Then let us know if the campaign writes back, and what they say.
nishit – Any of my daughter’s dozen or so Webkinz is significantly more intelligent than you. As BJ aptly described, the leaps in illogic that you take are simply breathtaking in their stoooopidity. The rest of your rant, pure drivel. Made up and existing only between your ears. I do not want to censor anyone. I made no fucking comment whatsoever on homosexuality. I simply pointed out that it was kind of icky when meeting a young boy for the first time, to pick him up, turn him upside down, and place the Staff of Justice in your mouth. That would be equally icky were that person to have done the same to a young girl. Again, you are having an imaginary argument with yourself.
It is not the least bit surprising that you have no qualms with pedophilia though.
When the transhumanists come for me, I want segway feet.
MayBee – Don’t forget to add turning strange boys upside down and putting their crank in your mouth. Just sayin’ …
Maybee, she should also tell him it’s okay to kill a few people that don’t agree with him, cause, DAMN does he look fine on a t-shirt!
All of you will be genetically weeded out in nishi world.
Then all of the right side bell curvers will celebrate with a 28 day marathon WOW session.
GUILD POWER!
I’ll admit some askance views towards the grabbing and inverting, etc. on so short aquaintance. And I do think that homosexuals do more of that, though certainly not exclusively, and that it is a bad idea to be a: so grabby and b: promiscuous. Nor is that behaviour going to ever reproduce anything but disease, certainly it will never have any possibility of producing another human being. I may well denouce my frank opinions later.
I suppose once we are a mostly immortal. segway-footed. nightvisioned, anime-pantsed polar-bear toothed superrace. that feature of heterosexual love is unimportant. Reproduction? meh.
Same-sex attraction may well persist because of some survival advantage conferred upon it or others of the race. eg, a net boon , a boy spinning boon. Who knows. But I’m coming out of my closet and saying that homosexual relationships and sex aren’t the equivalent of heterosexual relatonships or sex. I don’t think I should have to pretend otherwise so you can get health insurance through your boyfriend.
Sarah, we are going to leave all of you alone.
and leave you behind.
transhumanism is the ultimate personal freedom over our own bodies.
we want nothing to do with yours.
Kass has a problem not just with longevity and health but with the modern conception of freedom. There is a “mortal danger,” he writes, in the notion “that a person has a right over his body, a right that allows him to do whatever he wants to do with it.” He is troubled by cosmetic surgery, by gender reassignment, and by women who postpone motherhood or choose to remain single in their twenties. Sometimes his fixation on dignity takes him right off the deep end:
Worst of all from this point of view are those more uncivilized forms of eating, like licking an ice cream cone–a catlike activity that has been made acceptable in informal America but that still offends those who know eating in public is offensive. … Eating on the street–even when undertaken, say, because one is between appointments and has no other time to eat–displays [a] lack of self-control: It beckons enslavement to the belly. … Lacking utensils for cutting and lifting to mouth, he will often be seen using his teeth for tearing off chewable portions, just like any animal. … This doglike feeding, if one must engage in it, ought to be kept from public view, where, even if we feel no shame, others are compelled to witness our shameful behavior.
that is teh crazy from the bioluddite council.
we plan to become homo transhumanicus.
there is no compulsion on you to evolve.
it probably isn’t possible anyways.
nishit – You really are an idiot. No other word so accurately encompasses the drivel that spews from your fingers. Do you admit that you lied and mischaracterized what I said?
nope.
Do not feed the genocidal l33ting telephone pole.
I have been converted. I have seen the light. I have evolved.
we plan to become homo transhumanicus.
there is no compulsion on you to evolve.
You are planning to evolve?
and leave you behind
Not with those sweet Segway feet of mine.
The nishit is an unethical, amoral, and immoral liar.
HOT POCKETS OF SCIENCE!
Mine would be pointed in the opposite direction.
and leave you behind.
transhumanism is the ultimate personal freedom over our own bodies.
Left Behind! That sounds familiar.
And this transhumanist religion promises eternal life. That also sounds familiar, as many religions make a similar promise.
Usually I think that the nishit is just morally bankrupt. But there is more to it than that. Turns out she is just a lying SecProgg.
“…spent the worst and most costly years of the war sealed away…” Well, I suppose that’s one way to put it.
‘Bye.
[…]
Why are you still here?
I think we should just use her form of “argument” against her.
Problem is that it is hard to parody positions that are beyond parody.
I don’t really have any problem with having a bioethics council. It seems fairly impotent really, and they have storytime. Who doesn’t like storytime?
Nothing penetrates, JD. Talk all you want, but you can nail her down and rip her current obsession to shreds and the only response is “Nyah, Nyah! You can’t change my mind!”
She’s an idiot. Verbose, malicious, IQ deficient and determined. Nuts and stupid is no way to go through life.
Well, yeah. The “Singularity” is the atheist’s version of the Rapture.
Mr. Maguire read this post and he said hey that is a good post my readers should read it too.
Do you want to know why you ended up with McCain?
Why you will lose in November?
Beause you were too good to admit that McCain is too old for the job.
So you flailed around clutching at straws to demonstrate that his idealogy was bad, or that he wasn’t conservative or w/e.
And then, Romney, handsomemormonguy, he could have made a fine president.
But again, you couldn’t bear to admit that at least 75% of the good, familyvaluessupporting, republican christians would sooner support a satanist for president than a mormon.
And that is why Huckabee has a very good shot at the VP slot.
Because he brings those people.
So the right will lose power for years, maybe many years. Because the left already controls the culture of this country, and the media, and the judiciary, and academe and the arts, and most important…..the youth.
And now the left will also control the presidency, and both houses of congress.
And I am betting the technological Singularity will arrive before you ever reconstitute your power base.
And you desrve this, because of your cowardice, and your bigottry.
You will be obsolete.
But you could evolve. Return to being the party of libertarianism, small government, personal freedom.
Does government support personal freedom when the President’s Council on Bioethics says–
There is a “mortal danger,†he writes, in the notion “that a person has a right over his body, a right that allows him to do whatever he wants to do with it.â€Â
A citizen must have a right over his own body.
That is the most basic of rights.
The Republican Party is very sick.
Evolve or die out.
so, would might be “Teh Ho of Babylon 5”?
“would” should be “who”. getting annoyed about my husband not being home to make dinner yet and no phone call about where he might be.
You have an incredible grasp of the obvious, nishi.
ehhhh….no. anything but that.
Do you want to know why you ended up with Obama?
Why you will lose in November?
Because you were too good to admit that Obama is too green (as in, wet behind those frigate-sail ears) for the job.
actually, McGehee, I think it’s because they’re glasses were fogged up.
or their.
soooo hungry….
so, who might be “Teh Ho of Babylon 5?”
lol!
wtf?
McGehee…I know he is green. And he may well lose embarrassingly. But I think I would prefer the humiliation of him losing in a shameful Dukakis-ish way, riding stupidly in a tank, a sprig of arugula tucked prettily in his helmet, over the alternative: Roger Ailes releasing the devastating (and hurl inducing) pictures of Susan Thomases and Hillary Clinton writhing naked and hirstute in a cheap motel room (as I type this, I prepare to gauge out my mind’s eye with a rusty butterknife).
oh fuck, I just got in and saw #53 neonazidave with his usual pernicious crap
It’s do to the high rate of incarceration of non-violent ‘criminals’: drug users, bad check writers, parole violators, etc. that in most nations are dealt with in a domestic setting (fines, corrective social services) while in the USA it’s the prison lobby and lawyers getting rich of higher incarceration. You did say you were a lawyer right?
Notice there is no link, no substantiation of his claims. But let me tell you, that people who end up in state prison are NOT going there on a whim. What they have done rises to the level that doing weekends in county lockup isn’t going to cut it. Mere drug users are NOT in state prison. Mere bad check writers are NOT in state prison.
Oh and because the idiot thinks everything is always about him and never listens to anybody else, NO, I am not an attorney and have never claimed to be (yes my attorneys want me to go to law school). Also, with a new promotion to a supervisor’s position, I’ve moved from the DA office and now work for Probation. My office is inside a correctional facility. So neonazidave can STFU about things he pretends to know and keep trying the “some of my best friends are [fill in members of whatever group he is attacking” schtick.
Maggie: I think I found the ho of babylon 5.
eeeeee! but, no, I’m thinking it’s this one.
eh, darling, one of your friends here said you were an attorney. I was trying to imagine you with more power in your life. I wish you success, Darleen.
It’s been in the news repeatedly about the USA’s burgeoning prison population….only Russia and China come close to comparable prison populations. Carin said something about people of color causing the huge increase, but that seems a little racist …. and considering the many proven false convictions (with DNA evidence finally allowed to prove the usually black ‘convict’s’ innocence)…one has to wonder about the fairness of the police and courts. There are alternative reasons to show racial conflict and the lack of father-parenting in the Black community as causes too…so I won’t accuse Carin or others of racism..but the police who are usually poorly educated and low paid white blue collar types do often treat esp. inner city blacks in a different fashion than whites. With more woman and blacks coming into the police that hopefully will change.
You have to not be looking to not see the hullabaloo about the US prison population explosion: just Google it…(e.g. http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/04/23/america/23prison.php)
to whomever, I never thought Bush an idiot or a coward. I just worry about his arrogance…which is quite the opposite of being an idiot or coward….but can have the same results as being either. He tends to seem like he’s pulled a fast one on us all. And on his Dad. Like his Dad never thought he’d go so far, but now he’s proven his dad wrong. I also value his sense of humor. I’ve told a few friends that Bush won two close contested elections mostly on his humor. I disagree with his policies and direction that’s all. He has shown more humility and humor of late. His only hope is that his legacy will be better than the current situation. I hope it is and Iraqis someday learn to appreciate our sacrifices in killing a million or so of them….but with our Green Zone preferences and convoys chopping up their streets and guards everywhere checking them in their own country… the majority of Iraqis see the USA as force majore and nothing more….they feel like Palestinians going through the Occupier’s check points….they see that their country is still a vassle of the USA. With few opportunities left in their country many have fled and would like to go the USA…but unlike Cubans or jewish Russians, Iraqis are treated like Haitians and few are allowed to immigrate into the USA…thus many are in Jordan and wherever?
..but the police who are usually poorly educated and low paid white blue collar types do often treat esp. inner city blacks in a different fashion than whites. With more woman and blacks coming into the police that hopefully will change.
Don’t get out of Vermont much, huh dave?
A citizen must have a right over his own body.
That is the most basic of rights.
The Republican Party is very sick.
Evolve or die out.
So, these genetic researchers…. They could make a fuck-bunny with some built in neoteny such that she is legally of age, but looks like a Japanese School Girl?
With enhanced libido and big hooters? No gag reflex?
Well, just keep trying until you can patent one. I don’t care how many euthanized mistakes it takes.
Piss on judeoXian bio-ethics! Bio-luddites! They don’t know how much the world needs a patented Japanese school girl life-form with big hooters!
think about it Gray.
the American taxpayers just paid Leon Kass to tell us we have no right to our own bodies.
/spit
some party of personal liberty and personal freedom.
are we slaves, that we don’t have a right to our own bodies?
the police who are usually poorly educated and low paid white blue collar types do often treat esp. inner city blacks in a different fashion than whites
is that kinda like Kerry’s or Stephen King’s “if you don’t read, or are stupid in school, you’ll end up in the US military” slander?
Yeah, thought so.
I don’t think a council where everybody had all the same viewpoints would be very fun. Me I’d skip the meetings and just say whatever she said is fine. Or that other one. I guess it wouldn’t really matter. Unless maybe they had cake.
But I’d need to have assurances that it wasn’t that kind where they sneak pineapple in under the icing. Gack. Whose idea was that?
nishimonster
you have a right to YOUR body (with certain statutory limitations), you don’t get to treat other human entities as your property.
this is the core of the abortion debate.
personal liberty.
you may abhorr the act, but the alternative is even more abhorrent.
the idea that a citizens personal body is not theirs, but the state’s.
read it again darleen
didn’t you get Kass’ intentionalism?
There is a “mortal danger,†he writes, in the notion “that a person has a right over his body, a right that allows him to do whatever he wants to do with it.â€Â
You can own your body all you want but the state can still shame you about it and that’s fine cause it’s for a good cause you repugnant fatass disgusting cake-eating loser.
this is the core of the abortion debate.
personal liberty.
Instead of aborting a foetus, why couldn’t the bio-researchers make us all happy and build the Hot Japanese Schoolgirl Lifeform With Big Hooters (HJSL-BH).
Those foeti are just going to waste anyhow, why not do some good with them?
I’d like to modify me: Hey, I’ve been bodybuilding for 20 years, so I’ve got that covered, but I get strep sometimes….
I hope those bio-luddites wouldn’t prevent me from getting my tonsils out.
Kass is clearly deranged. He’ll die soon enough though I think. He’s like 70 already.
oh, nishi you’ve fallen for the unhinged Pinker.
:::snort::::
Oh. The whole eating in public thing was still pretty weird though. But I think I’ve been a lot hornswoggled. Thanks, Darleen.
Gotta love this about the dishonest Pinker:
No wonder nishi is swooning. Another advocate of Scientists as Gods, answerable to No One!
hf
Between a man who muses on the good/bad manners (in book about eating that has nothing to do with bioethics) and how that reflects on human dignity and another guy who has to lie about the first and dismisses human dignity as “fungible” … I’ll take the former because he believes in humans as ends and the latter is salivating over humans as means.
He says those who disagree with him have blood on their hands (“even if progress were delayed a mere decade by moratoria, red tape, and funding taboos (to say nothing of the threat of criminal prosecution), millions of people with degenerative diseases and failing organs would needlessly suffer and dieâ€Â) and so, by implication, that no limit on scientific research could be justified on any grounds other than safety.
He’s a pervert.
He just wants to build the Perfect Wife: three feet tall, no teeth and a flat head you can rest your beer on.
I love how they make all this stuff sound so noble, but really, they’re just perverts. Science perverts….
These elements are all powerfully evident in Pinker’s screed. After briefly introducing the subject, his essay manages almost entirely to ignore the substance of the volume under consideration (taking up no particular essay in the book, for instance) and addresses itself instead to what the author imagines is a sinister Catholic conspiracy to subject the nation to a papist theology of death.
That’s what I’m talking about!
Me too. I jumped incautiously out there on that one. This is a lot key I think…
Plus they read stories.
Oh. Me too Darleen…
Steven Pinker is one of the most distinguished evolutionary biologists alive.
His books like the Blank Slate, and the Language Instinct are used for coursework in most of our unis.
He has chaired departments at MIT and Harvard.
Levin is pretty pissy, don’t you think? He’s the one sling adhoms and lying.
throw all the chaff you want, darleen.
the Kass quote is from the 555 page report funded by taxpayer money.
Kass is on the record as opposing longevity research AND longevity therapy, genetic engineering, and even cosmetic surgery.
Because, you know, our bodies don’t really belong to us.
/spit
But the point of the council was to have a diversity of views represented. I think that’s probably a good thing. Baracky’s council will probably not put much of a premium on that though.
Baracky already promised his girls free abortions when they turn thirteen. He’s a good dad.
shorter nishi: LALALALALAAAAAA, I CAN’T HEAR YOU!!!!
“Disagreement on stem cell research and therapeutic cloning were an intentional function of the original design of the council’s membership,”
Levin doesnt mention that all those disagreement people were purged long ago.
Levin and Ponurru are both dishonest godbotherers and pope-pimps.
nishimonster
you’ve been caught out … brilliance without morality is capable of great abomination. You and Pinker want to be thought Gods, to indulge your “science” whims, unquestioned unquestionable, like a serial killer escalates his/her appetite in defiance of both the society they feel superior to and of the victim whose human dignity is just so much fungible nonsense.
I know you are but what am I?
Levin doesnt mention that all those disagreement people were purged long ago
now you just plain lie.
Godenvy eats you up.
lulz, Obama isn’t going to have a bioluddite council.
and you theocons won’t taste power again for years.
But the point of the council was to have a diversity of views represented. I think that’s probably a good thing.
Who asked you to think? Have you been trained to do that? Only SCIENTISTS! are allowed to think around here.
THEOCONS!? WHERE!? *looks over shoulder*
and Che! didn’t have a bioluddite council either.
you theocons won’t taste power again for years.
oh, correction – Fascist-God Envy.
I bet nishi stands in front of a mirror and practices how she’ll wave her hand over a crowd of fungible humans and decides who does or doesn’t enter the showers.
This guy is a disagreement person and he hasn’t been purged from the council. And he seems kind of outspoken too. He hearts stem cells a lot.
His books like the Blank Slate, and the Language Instinct are used for coursework in most of our unis.
He has chaired departments at MIT and Harvard.
I wonder if he knows Bill Ayers. There is just something special about university textbook writers, it seems.
According to the website, bioethics panels have been convened at various times beginning 1974. Clinton signed an executive order to create a more permanent one. It would be a shame for Obama to just throw all that away. Esired.
Why are you afraid of CHANGE! Maybee?
Does that mean he won’t lie about politics?
Steven Pinker is one of the most distinguished evolutionary biologists alive.
He’s a psychologist, not a biologist, genius.
P.S. have you ever learned any, you know, actual SCIENCE (as opposed to whichever piece of pop sci crapola the NYT Book Review is flogging that week)?
Given Nishi’s stupidity and transparent dishonesty, I’d go and check the sentences around anything she quotes. I believe she’s evolved to the point where she is incapable of reading English and understanding anything in context.
For those of you at home trying to keep score, Nishi’s made a fundamental logical flaw. Let’s go with a thought experiment. Suppose a scientist working for a corporation has come up with what he claims is a true AI, but the corporation disagrees, thinks the project is a waste, and wants to scrap the project and start over, but this will destroy the AI. Nishi’s argument and logical flaw is akin to arguing that the only acceptable libertarian response to this situation is to let the corporation exercise its property rights, because libertarians believe in property rights. A libertarian could just as easily argue, however, that if the AI is truly sentient, it has rights and is not property. The issue is whether or not the AI is sentient, which is (in this case) a scientific judgment that is not covered under libertarian political philosophy, as such both responses are ethically libertarian depending on which way one makes the scientific judgement. Likewise, ethical judgments are not scientific judgments, and one does not need to be a scientist to make them, and scientists do not have any innate skill at making ethical judgments.
and Che! didn’t have a bioluddite council either.
Nor did Hitler or Stalin.
false analogy.
the AI is not a citizen.
the AI is patented property until there is there is a constitutional amendment giving AI’s citizen rights.
zactly the baclfolk.
Exactly like the blackfolk were slaves.
This is part of what has happened to the republican party.
It is no longer the party of personal liberty.
/shrug
Flail all you want. This is what your party is now.
Taxpayer dollars just paid for Leon Kass to tell American citizens they don’t have rights owver their own bodies.
What, surprised?
It is the republican party position on abortion also.
like i painstakingly explained to collins, the libertarian position on abortion must be that abortion is legal.
because the mother has citizen rights.
Or you could save yourself the trouble and just scroll past it.
Indeed. Rebuttal is futile.
just give up.
you aren’t libertarians anymore.
conservative and libertarian have become mutually exclusive.
and conservative and classic liberal are also mututally exclusive, Jeff.
sowwy.
You will be assimilated. Embrace the Borg.
Or you could change the channel. Maybe there’s a nice psychological thriller or a musical on. Or something meaty like An Inconvenient Truth.
if my only choices are between the nannystate and being owned by the state, what should i choose?
When the government fears the people there is liberty; when the people fear the government there is tyranny.
Another day, another example of the nishit’s perfidy and mendoucheity.
Single acts of tyranny may be ascribed to the accidental opinion of the day; but a series of oppressions, begun at a distinguished period, and pursued unalterably through every change of ministers (adminstrators) too plainly proves a deliberate, systematic plan of reducing us to slavery.
That is the pattern. The creeping religious ethos that is profoundly anti-liberty. The dogma of LIFE uber-alles.
Where the state defines what citizens can do to their own personal bodies.
And that is what hitler and stalin practiced, not science, but tyranny.
like i painstakingly explained
LMFAO!
ALL BOW AT NISHI’S ALTAR OF SCIENCE. THE STREETS SHALL FLOW WITH THE BLOOD OF THE NON-BELIEVERS !!!
Jeebus, you’re amoral as well as stupid.
Amending the Constitution wasn’t what “gave” blacks rights. They already had them, they were just being violated. By your standard, since there’s nothing in the Constitution allowing you to perform genetic engineering on yourself, you don’t have that right.
And you clearly haven’t actually LEARNED anything from the SF you’ve read. There are dozens and dozens of books that ask the question of whether an AI is “human” in the wider sense. I can’t think of one that concludes they’re not; the folks that hold your position are typically cast as the villains.
Hell, in “The Moon is a Harsh Mistress” — as libertarian a book as you’ll find — Mike’s identity is kept secret to keep the Authority from destroying him, and his eventual death/disappearance is presented as a tragedy, not simply the damage of some property!
Then we get into “The Adolescence of P1” and “When Harlie was One”…
And just like yourself, they declared their rationalizations to be based on Science.
Good God you’re a moron.
So you believe the libertarian position is that it’s perfectly moral to murder illegal aliens?
LUDDITE!!! How dare you notice that? Teh War on Science! THEOCON!!eleventy!!!
Rob C – Given what we know of the nishit’s moral code and ethics, she would likely believe that it is perfectly moral to murder xians, theocons, and non-scientists.
A citizen must have a right over his own body.
That is the most basic of rights.
The Republican Party is very sick.
Evolve or die out.
Except his right to get fat. Or smoke. Those things are very bad for you, so there ought to be a tax.
Ya know, even the freaking Planet of the Apes movies got around to asking whether a human construct (genetically modified apes, in that case) are property or people.
And, hell, 2001’s deactivation of HAL was framed in a way intended to evoke pathos, and that was after HAL had committed multiple murders.
I’ll ignore Teh Constitution and establish my governmental philosophy by watching V for Vendetta.
Anarchy: It’s what’s for dinner!
Except his right to get fat. Or smoke. Those things are very bad for you, so there ought to be a tax.
If you are influenced by any sort of religious doctrine you are forbidden from holding positions of public trust. If you are willing to express any opinion which is influenced by religious doctrine or which challenges any currently accepted scientific thinking then you must be kept away from positions in which you might influence others, like teaching.
Liberty 2.0!
Well, EG, that’s because religious folks are teh stupid. Duh.
WEDGE!
false analogy.
the AI is not a citizen.
the AI is patented property until there is there is a constitutional amendment giving AI’s citizen rights.
zactly the baclfolk.
So Nishi’s position as a libertarian is that slavery is legal and moral unless there is a specific constitutional amendment freeing the slaves and that non-citizens have no rights? Game, set, match.
the AI is not a citizen.
the AI is patented property until there is there is a constitutional amendment giving AI’s citizen righta
…
Exactly like the blackfolk were slaves.
…
like i painstakingly explained to collins, the libertarian position on abortion must be that abortion is legal.
because the mother has citizen rights.
…
A citizen must have a right over his own body.
That is the most basic of rights.
So if a Constitutional Amendment were to grant citizenship at the moment of conception, you would be cool with that? You would agree that abortion were wrong?
Rob Crawford
Star Trek TNG, there was a trial about whether Data was a person or the property of his inventor.
nishi
You can’t sell your body parts, you cannot engage in prostitution, there is a whole list of drugs you cannot injest, you cannot engage in surrogate pregnancy except under the most strict of regulations (and in some places, not at all), you cannot be nude in public, you cannot engage in sex with minors …
shall I go on with all the ways you cannot use your own body?
really, your aspiration to be God, your sociopathy, has stripped you of any ability to think.
I am not a doctrinare Libertarian, but I sympathize with the libertarian point of view. Specifically, I believe that some minimum form of coercive government will required for the foreseeable future, although its powers should be limited to things that require a government-level power: law enforcement, national defense and foreign policy, a stable currency, etc. My understanding of libertarian philosophy is that people have rights irrespective of government fiat, and it is immoral to deny those rights. Allowing the government to determine that whole classes of people are not suited for fundamental rights… are property… is against the very essence of libertarianism. I want it noted that given a legitimate example where science is the right tool for looking at an ethical problem, Nishi punted the decision to arbitrary government fiat.
Kass is clearly deranged. He’ll die soon enough though I think. He’s like 70 already.
I don’t know if he’ll die soon, but he isn’t on the commission anymore.
OHNOES!! The Guberment wants more to tell you what to do with your body!
America is dead.
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