Yesterday evening I wasn’t able to hang out here very much, and while I was away we had some comments by Dr. Ric to the effect that I don’t seem to care very much about anti-Catholic bigotry, considering what a homophobe I am, and that the only reason we make mock of Greenwald here is that we are jealous much.
Let me take up the last bit first: Dancing with the Stars is also popular.  But even, for the sake of argument, assuming we were, why the fuck would Caric care, given his vast readership?  As far as teh Gays are concerned, I don’t have any problem with them.  Let them, for all I care, construct a PoMo Homo Duomo.  It wouldn’t be any more or less indentity politicky or any more or less Christian than the parish that Barack frequents, in my opinion.
My views on Christianity and homosexuality I’ve expressed here and elsewhere on a variety of occasions, and don’t see the point in doing Ric Non-Locke’s homework for him.But coming finally to the issue of anti-Catholic bigotry, I believe that I’ve expressed my distaste for it on numerous occasions, this most recently.  I certainly believe Caric when he claims that in benighted Eastern Tennessee there are a lot of fundamentalist types who don’t view it as a legitimate form of Christianity.  I’ve noted that even in academe, I’ve been exposed to this variety of bigotry.
But there are bigots by virtue of ignorance and bigots by virtue of perversity.  I’m not particularly interested in debating with the latter.  And whereas it is true that there are some Protestants who dislike Catholicism either with or without recourse to something resembling reason, it is also true that there are those, like those in this article, who are willing to consider the value of some Catholic practices:
Evangelicals observing Lent?
Fasting, and giving up chocolate and favorite pastimes like watching TV during the 40 days before Easter are practices many evangelical Protestants have long rejected as too Catholic and unbiblical.But Lent — a time of inner cleansing and reflection upon Jesus Christ’s sufferings before his resurrection — is one of many ancient church practices being embraced by an increasing number of evangelicals, sometimes with a modern twist. The National Community Church, which has three locations in the District and one in Arlington County, updated the Lenten fast by adding a Web component: a 40-day blog, where participants from as far away as Australia, Korea and Mexico discuss their spiritual cleansing.
This increasing connection with Christianity’s classical traditions goes beyond Lent. Some evangelical churches offer confession and weekly communion. They distribute ashes on Ash Wednesday and light Advent calendars at Christmastime. Others have formed monastic communities, such as Casa Chirilagua in Alexandria, modeled on the monasteries that arose in Christianity’s early years.
This represents a “major sea change in evangelical life,” according to D.H. Williams, professor of patristics and historical theology at Baylor University. “Evangelicalism is coming to point where the early church has become the newest staple of its diet.”
Most importantly, though, I personally encounter more anti-Catholic and anti-Semitic bigotry among self-described liberals than I do anywhere else. Quite frankly, any religious component of the education provided at most Catholic colleges and universities is considerably less coercive than secular humanist ideology, and Obama is the Savior of the Egoists, for he shall compel righteousness.
I never knew they were on the bigotry menu really, Catholics. Not growing up in Texas. Maybe it’s an East Coast thing more?
Caric has to be offended by stuff people say 1,000 miles away from him because if some nitwit like Hagee or Phelps were to get in his face with their offensivey-ness it would blow all of his mental fuses and he’d just shut down like the androids in that “Star Trek” episode with Harry Mudd.
Right about now Dr. Caric is feeling that Obama insertion, devil Dan. Bite marks in the pillow in 3, 2, 1.
When a Christian teacher expresses a negative opinion about a certain brand of theology, he’s condemning the theology, not being bigoted. There are people who are bigoted against Roman Catholics, but asserting that the denomination is apostate is a theological statement, not a bigoted one. You can argue whether or not the individual saying these things is bigoted against Roman Catholics, but what you are not doing is arguing whether what he says is true or not, theologically speaking. So you’re missing the point, and in most cases I’d say on purpose because it’s a lot easier to attack an opponent than refute him.
I think that that’s probably true, hf, though Texas’s history has been rather checkered in that regard:
In 1962, my Dad relates having his house in Ft Worth egged during a St. Pat’s celebration with some of his Air Force buddies.
Christopher, the burden of proof is rather on the one making the assertion that one is an apostate, I should think. What do you make of this?
“Comment by Victor. on 3/8 @ 3:08 pm # |Edit This
If I am missing something here please correct me.
Hagee writes:
Adolf Hitler attended a Catholic school as a child and heard all the fiery anti-Semitic rantings from Chrysostom to Martin Luther. When Hitler became a global demonic monster, the Catholic Church and Pope Pius XII never, ever slightly criticized him. Pope Pius XII, called by historians ‘Hitler’s Pope,’ joined Hitler in the infamous Concordat of Collaboration, which turned the youth of the [sic] Germany over to Nazism, and the churches became the stage background for the bloodthirsty cry, ‘Pereat Judea’[14]…. In all of his [Hitler’s] years of absolute brutality, he was never denounced or even scolded by Pope Pius XII or any Catholic leader in the world. To those Christians who believe that Jewish hearts will be warmed by the sight of the cross, please be informedâ€â€to them it’s an electric chair. (pp. 79-81)
The Roman Catholic Church, which was supposed to carry the light of the gospel, plunged the world into the Dark Ages…. The Crusaders were a motley mob of thieves, rapists, robbers, and murderers whose sins had been forgiven by the pope in advance of the Crusade…. The brutal truth is that the Crusades were military campaigns of the Roman Catholic Church to gain control of Jerusalem from the Muslims and to punish the Jews as the alleged Christ killers on the road to and from Jerusalem. (p. 73)”
If possible, set aside the commentary where Hagee opines on the long standing resentment that Jews might have with the RC church, and shed some light of the historical inaccuracies in the writ itself.””
Valid?
Oh. Well, I meant except for the murder, plundering, rape and the desecration of Catholic Churches.
I remember on May Day when we first moved back there after a few years up north we left little baskets for the neighbors (Catholics) and then ran away and they thought we were fucking whacked in the head.
I would call “Victor”‘s comment a bit overheated, but absent the tone, I rather thought all of that was well-established, if not conventional wisdom.
The Church did, in fact, remain remarkably silent on the subject of Hitler and German revanchism. Don’t I recall a Pope acknowledging that, and apologizing for it? The bit about Hitler attending Catholic schools is new to me, but given the time and place where he was raised I don’t see anything remarkable about it as a fact. Tying that to his later behavior is over the top, but nishi (e.g.) doesn’t seem to shrink from suggesting that sort of thing as a consequence of “xian” education.
As for the Crusaders — despite centuries of romanticism, particularly 19th Century Romantic poetry, “knights” were in fact the enforcer-goons for medieval warlords. They were expensively equipped, armed, trained, and supported because they provided the muscle to see to it that the King and the rest of the nobility got what they wanted. One of the major motives for the Crusades was that a variant of Parkinson’s Law had resulted in a fairly severe overpopulation of knights compared to the carrying capacity of Europe at the time; the Crusades were seen by the Popes as a win-win, because they might just succeed (adding to the wealth of Europe, by the economic theories of the time) and in any case lots of the violent assholes would get killed off in the process. And of course the Church has never really forgotten that it was part of the Roman Empire, nor ceased to feel that it is, in some way, entitled to run things or at least give advice which should be heeded.
None of which has anything to do with how the Church comports itself today, of course. One of the most annoying habits of the Left is to declare that anything bad done by anyone who can be associated, even peripherally, with the Right, all the way back to the Big Bang, must be considered current behavior, whilst their Champions spring full-grown from the brow of Zeus and their past behavior is irrelevant.
As to Texas and anti-Catholic bigotry: Hmm. I’m originally from East Texas, which is much more like Mississippi than it is like the area where happyfeet is from. Our little town had a small Catholic church with maybe fifty or so parishioners, but no priest in residence. I don’t recall any particular animosity against Catholics, certainly no mass denunciation of Papists, nor even any particularly scary stories; I didn’t even hear the bit about the Nazis until I was adult, probably the Sixties at the earliest. Our pastor taught that the Jews killed Jesus, but weren’t to be accused on that account because God wanted it that way; both Catholics and Jews were, in that view, unfortunately misguided and wrong, and probably going to Hell, but nobody needed to help them get there.
Regards,
Ric
Ric, I’m a bit of a student of Catholic Church history: spiritual techne, the history of the Eucharist, the relations between the Byzantine and Roman Churches, and the Crusades, insofar as they intersect with the history of Venice. You may wish to read this. In short, I’m rather inclined to the view that the view that the Catholic Church was quiescent with respect to Hitler’s designs is largely a libel meant to justify secular humanist animus towards its beliefs. With regard to the Crusades, nobody seems to think it’s really very terrible that Venice provided for so many centuries a bulwark against Islamic expansionism, or that Sobieski stopped the Turk at the Gates of Vienna. And that was wrought with blood and violence.
Did the Catholic Church plunge Europe into a Dark Ages? It would seem to me, having read Gregorius Magnus that the Church only very reluctantly stepped into the governmental void created by the collapse of the Roman Empire. Certainly, Benedict has done his part to emphasize that the intellectual tradition of Roman Catholicism owes a great deal to syncretism with the Greco-Roman traditions. Most of the anti-Catholic Protestant traditions have trouble with that fact, seeing that as “accretion.” Strangely enough, though, Paul . . . who is the most evangelical of the Gospel writers . . . is also the most affected by Greco-Roman philosophy.
Yeah, that’s the reason, Hitler wanted to kidnap the Pope. Honestly, that’s the stupidest thing I’ve read from Brother Hagee; and that’s saying something. Then again, He’s relying on
the theological sense of John Le Carre’s heretical kin. Only one grand religious authority, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj amin Al Husseini, Arafat’s uncle,actually agreed with Hitler’s goals, and tried to carry them out (with the help of Veesenmayer in the Balkans, and Eichmann in Hungary) All the rest is James Carroll’s slanders translated into Daniel Silva’s fiction. Stalin, was
an ex-seminarian, a criminal, and a onetime contact of the Czarist Okrana.
(I knew it; the ultimate counter-revolutionary, some troll will
spout) Hitler was a Nietzchian, not only did he believe God was dead. but(possibly his battlefield experiences had something to do with it) He
believed Christianity was way to soft, for what needed to be done. Which he laid out in a little volume called Mein Kampf, maybe you’ve heard of it.
That having been said, the dialectical
nature of Protestantism, doesn’t obscure the essential agreement with
Catholicism on practical matters. The
left faction of Protestantism, the mummified WCC, in implicitly at home with the most extreme variation on socialist experiment. Evangelical Protestantism, in it’s major manifestation, is as Weber, would put, naturally capitalist, and some would say, counter-revolutionary.
Comment by Christopher Taylor :
When a Christian teacher expresses a negative opinion about a certain brand of theology, he’s condemning the theology, not being bigoted. There are people who are bigoted against Roman Catholics, but asserting that the denomination is apostate is a theological statement, not a bigoted one. You can argue whether or not the individual saying these things is bigoted against Roman Catholics, but what you are not doing is arguing whether what he says is true or not, theologically speaking. So you’re missing the point, and in most cases I’d say on purpose because it’s a lot easier to attack an opponent than refute him.
This is precisely the point I was heading towards earlier.
I would only add emphasis by asking whether McCain should go around denouncing all the endorsements from Catholics because of who the Catholic Church interprets as being the harlot in Revelation 17, because it has just been established by the MSM that any interpretation of this passage seeking to identify any group as such is an act of bigotry.
McCain’s total and complete capitulation on this issue is that of a ignorant man.
You still don’t see anything wrong with what Hagee said, right, Victor?
McCain doesn’t really have a dog in that fight I don’t think.
Here’s where this leads.
I mean, Catholics are so intolerant.
Oh no. Not that. I’m sorry to offend if it’s offensive but for real I think Revelation really shouldn’t have made the final cut. Just godawfully abstruse and tedious stuff. It totally begs for this kind of crap.
Holy shit, hf. Everybody knows that teh Great Whore is Hollywood!
Dan,
When you reach a point where HellFire and Brimstone is something other than problematic and controversial, then you might as well be talking about Interest Rates and Equity Markets with Ben Bernanke while under the influence of mega-doses of Soma.
McCain should have turned this towards his advantage, especially when you consider that he has no intentions of going after Obama on these same theological grounds. Instead, he heard the media reports of ” Great Whore” and “Catholic” and flipped the chicken switch.
Oh. This is true. You know, I have 3 sex motels in walking distance and I don’t even notice anymore.
McCain is not opportunistic in that way, Victor. Not that I’ve ever noticed. That would be an odd thing for him to do I think.
Nor is Obama opportunistic in that way. Obama prefers hope, change and healing. We’re don’t live in red states and blues states. We live in the United States.
I’m thinking about (evangelically) celebrating lent.
Does that mean I have to give up vaginal chocolate?
Keeding!
I’ve spent, oh, around 40 years involved in one way or another with the promulgation of evangelical protestantism. I suppose Dan, that there’s a fairly universal agreement, even among informed RC’s, that there was some good rationale for Luther’s nailing the 95 theses to the door.
It also seems apparent that since the reformation period, there has been substantial mutual enlightenment between us despite the many historical antipathies. I know that my own values, for example, in the eucharist, have been enhanced by vigorous discussion regarding transubstantiation with RC friends – and this but one example of many.
But, look, we live in a post-Christian age. The entire vocabulary of Christianity has been co-opted in our culture by the same deconstructionists that have brought us emanations and penumbra.
The fact the the RC church is one of the few entities that stands athwart history against the murder of innocents is enough for me to eschew whatever differences we have. If that makes me too ecumenical for some then tough. Our culture is at stake.
Eghads = to think I semi defended the fucker thinking it was Ric Locke. Very dark day for me.
Let me say this.
J-E-S-U-S and G-O-D are words for the un-nameable harmony that rules the universe. Live in harmony, and life is good. End of story.
We all know what is right and what is wrong. Unfortunately, what is right is usually the most inconvenient choice.
Why do so many people need an institution to prop their faith up? Could it be that faith is not strong enough in some lives (re: “Nah. That couldn’t be)?
The world’s religions, by trying to name the un-nameable, have done a disservice to the true meaning of harmony. But they do preserve the seed.
I live in faith, and believe that religious rituals only diminish my faith. “God” is a terrible word, and has been corrupted into a sort of Super Santa Claus, who is just waiting to hurl a lightning bolt at you if you don’t brush your teeth. How quaint. The real truth can’t be named, and shouldn’t be named. It just IS.
Does that make me a dreaded Gnostic?
Nope. I reject that, too.
Faith can’t be empirically proven, and ritualistic behavour will never chamge that fact. Religion is for those who have a need to prove their faith.
Go for it. Be a Catholic, a Buddhist, Episcopalian (although Episcos are a very humorous lot, having decided that THEY are their own God), a Congregetionalist, or whatever. Arguing religion is just another way of confirming “I don’t get it yet”.
Unfortunately, you have to ask for faith, and, as a generalrule, you can’t find it until you believe that it MIGHT be real.
As for me, my faith is my faith, and I don’t need to stick it in a box.
I can’t believe I’mn posting this, but these are the darkest days of winter when depression reigns supreme.
That’s still no excuse.
Oh well. Even living in faith has it’s moments.
Oh yeah.
OOPS! The postscript.
I love religions, and am probably one of the only three people in the world to have actually read the Urantia Book (Interesting, if you like blue peoples, green peoples, and red peoples).
But leave it to Moe Seigal to fuck up even THAT experience. Never trust a person who doesn’t look you in the eye when they shake your hamd.
Right, Moe?
Howard Veit had reflections on Catholicism last week. I read them.
#1 happyfeet:
I hadn’t heard about anti-Catholic bigotry until I got older. I put that down to being raised Episcopalian (catholic lite – all of the ritual, none of the guilt) and living in southeastern Michigan. Lots of Catholics around here, so the “weird and scary” part isn’t present.
If I recall correctly, Dan, those St. Patrick’s Battalion men who were hanged had deserted from the US Army to the Mexican Army.
as soon as you can demonstrate that the Doctors of the Church are not the greatest theological minds ever to grace this planet since the time of St. Paul, I will denounce the accumulated wisdom of the Church and opt for some newer schismatic variant. Maybe I’ll pick a “mega” church with a pastor with his own particular bent on Scripture. Until then, I may sympathize with the early Luther (before megalomania befell him), but that does not make me Lutheran (whichever flavor), and it sure as hell doesn’t make me a son of Henry the VIIIs grafted branch.
Suggested reading for those taintged by the many innaccuracies (including the front of the dust cover) of Hitler’s Pope:
Dalin, Rabbi David G. The Myth of Hitler’s Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued Jews from the Nazis. Washington, D.C.: Regnery, 2005.
Rychlak, Ronald J., and Michael Novak. Righteous Gentiles: How Pius XII and the Catholic Church Saved Half a Million Jews from the Nazis. Dallas: Spence, 2005.
.
and before I am so accused or provide a false interpretation of the Church’s stance on our wayward Christian brothers and sisters, let me profess the following: all Baptized Christians are my brothers and sisters in Christ. We are united in Baptism. I also believe that in all gatherings of Christians, an aspect of the fullness of God’s Light can be found. So, for the record, I wish for all Christians who make up the entire Body of Christ on earth to come together as one to the true desire of Christ that there be no animosity between brothers. There. Now, if that doesn’t make sense and you still want to discuss the merits of “organized” religion (as in the institutions (the administration of the extrastructure) rather than the teachings they emit) fine. If you truly think it is the rafters of the churches or the wood from which the alters are carved that speaks to the nature of “organized” religion (in this case the Latin-Rite Catholic faith), then I will speak to it with you, but will feel a bit as if I am casting pearls. Lost Dog: my nice way of saying you need to edumacate yourself on what you are rejecting before you can reject that which you are not yet fit to reject on any merit. By the way you speak about what you reject, I am sorry to say that the arguments you need to digest would be lost on you… not being a dick, but we would be speaking in remarkably different languages and concepts at remarkably different levels. Sorry to be blunt. I pray for the Holy Spirit to descend upon you and shed some Light on those darker areas of your understanding.
“Comment by MC on 3/8 @ 11:15 pm #
I’m thinking about (evangelically) celebrating lent.
Does that mean I have to give up vaginal chocolate”
Nah, do what I do..
Give up your relatives for Lent.
Personally, I’m pantheistic multiple-personality solipsist.
I’m convinced that God has an amazing sense of humor.
syncretism
Couldn’t just have said ‘fusion’ could ya Dan? Now my head hurts.
FWIW We send our teenage daughter to a catholic girls high school(we’re not catholic) rather than the local high school because the sisters don’t insist on all the PC crap. Sure they have to pray several times a day, but that never hurt anybody.(Holden Caulfield school of theology)
Well, sure. Here we see the little point of truth from which the relativists derive their bullshit: it’s complicated. The blind men were being totally honest about what they sensed. The fact that they couldn’t detect the whole elephant wasn’t a case of deliberate abdication of responsibility.
The villainy, where it exists, comes in two flavors, both absolutist: declaring that the limited view can only be derived from vileness, and insisting that another (by definition equally limited, because the product of human perceptions) is the Only TRVTH.
Hagee’s observations aren’t wrong. What they are is woefully limited — they don’t consider some very important ameliorative factors, some of which you cite. But it is fact that the Church didn’t publicly denounce Hitler, and in fact went along with some of the Nazis’ programs. Failing to incorporate that reality into a defense ends up with nothing more edifying than the fellow who detected a rope-like object and the one who found a wall-like one coming to blows.
The concept of “Christendom” was a vitally important way-station on the road that led to where we are. The Roman Empire made something of a point of busting up tribal-based groupings; when it fell, the notion that “we’re all Christians together” prevented a full resurgence of tribalism, which in turn allowed the rise of the concept of “nation” to importance and eventually led to us. An important part of that was the Church’s ability to put together ad hoc groupings to counter Islam, among other things. But the Church also did a bunch of things which, in retrospect, were at best counterproductive and at worst flat-out evil, and refusing to acknowledge that while making counterarguments accomplishes nothing except to set the views of your opponents in concrete. (I would put, at the top of that list, the distortion of Christ’s teachings regarding “the rich” to service the rapacity of the nobility. That one’s gonna be with us for a loooong time.) Unbalanced views should be refuted, but an equally unbalanced one is not a refutation.
Regards,
Ric
…But the Church also did a bunch of things which, in retrospect, were at best counterproductive and at worst flat-out evil…
That which nobody expects springs to mind.
Look, my Cathoilc street cred is pretty good. 8 yrs catholic school, name brand jesuit university, altar boy and the rest.
I still dont get where Ric caric gets off accusing PW of anti-Catholic bigotry. DC linked approvingly to the post where McCain rejected that endorsement. what’s the beef?
this guy Caric is obviously a living parody and a tool of a high order.
BTW, im seriously learning a lot in the back and forth between DC, Ric Locke and Enoch_Root.
sigh. *nuance*
Christopher, the burden of proof is rather on the one making the assertion that one is an apostate, I should think. What do you make of this?
Sure, but that’s a theological argument, and if you want to make that argument you can do so (I have no doubt Mr Hagee tries to). Simply saying “this is bigotry” isn’t making that argument at all.
As for Senator McCain’s statements, if he doesn’t happen to believe that the Roman Catholic Church is apostate or the great harlot of Revelation, then he’s right to repudiate such statements. I don’t have a problem with either of their statements in principle.
People do have to remember though: you can consider a denomination apostate without condemning every single person in the denomination.
Christopher – you are correct… but you can’t call something that has not split from itself a “denomination”. That is, a schismatic denomination can exist, but the Catholic Faiths cannot by definition be schismatic, as they are in Communion with one another. This means that Latin-Rite Catholics, Eastern Orthodox Catholics, etc cannot be denominations, as they are in Spirit unified by what they profess… such as One Baptism for the forgiveness of sins, and Transubstantiation, to name a couple of the biggies. So call the Church what you will… a denomination it is not.
i kinda think the whole thing about Hagee reguarding the jews as fungeable is worse than w/e anti-catholic bigotry he professes.
Hagee loves Israel, but really just as a staked goat for bringing on the Rapture.
I’ve read excerpts from Jerusalem Countdown, one of Hagee’s books.
go ahead!
look inside, lulz.
and Hagee gets beamed into 99 million homes.
coolio.
nishi – go find something you actually know about and comment on that. 99 milion homes? Out of a 300 million person nation? Beamed in?
The math really doesn’t work – try again. Refuting bigotry with your own isn’t very enlightening to anyone.
The inhabitants of which are incapable of finding the off switch, right?
Hagee is the President and CEO of John Hagee Ministries which telecasts his national radio and television ministry carried in America on 160 TV stations, fifty radio stations and eight networks including The Inspiration Network (INSP) and Trinity Broadcasting Network. The ministries can be seen and heard weekly in 99 million homes. John Hagee Ministries is in Canada on the Miracle Channel and CTS and can be seen in Africa, Europe, Australia, New Zealand and is in most third world nations.
from the wiki
i tole u before, im bigotted against stupidity everywhere.
there just seems to a higher positive correlate with evangelicals.
How far’s that “Mars Probe” now?
Jesus Fucking Christ nishi, if we agree Hagee is the anti-Christ will you shut the fuck up?
The one with the inches/millimeters problem, or whatever it was.
i tole u before, im bigotted against stupidity everywhere.
Except your own home.
I really don’t know what nishi’s real job is, but she should be a lobbyist. A couple of hours with her one on one and Hagee would be campaigning to make abortions mandatory.
you can’t call something that has not split from itself a “denominationâ€Â
Different portions of the Christian Church are called denominations, that’s what they are referred to as officially and properly. You can argue that the Roman Catholic Church (despite 7 popes at one time, various splinters and changes over the years) is the original Christian church and has one consistent heritage from the apostles, but that doesn’t somehow prevent it from being a denomination. Think of it like you do money: each different type of money is a different denomination, there’s no baseline “money” from which it all splits or is distinct.
Christopher – when a branch extends from the trunk, it become an off-shoot… even so, the trunk is not a branch. As for your simile, I would suggest the Catholic faith is, let’s say, something you peg a currency to… it is not divisible by anything, no matter the fiat.
also, Christopher, who were the 7 concurrent popes?
CO2 is widely accepted as a pollutant now. Polluting is now one of the 14 Deadly Sins. When we breathe, we emit CO2.
I’ll see you in hell. Oh wait, I’m Lutheran.
al… seriously… nothing like purposefully deceiving… or is scandal also not an issue for Lutherans? Oh, wait, that’s right, you were founded on a foundation of scandal. Weird how that works. Now go to church, or better yet Confession, and own up to purposefully distorting the Faith’s tenants. Or is that optional also?
you can do better, my Brother in Christ, than that.
Jesus Fucking Christ nishi, if we agree Hagee is the anti-Christ will you shut the fuck up?
no.
Hagee says the President of the EU will be the Antichrist[cite: Jerusalem Countdown].
i just want u to say he is a vile insane hatemonger that is perhaps trying to stage manage the Apocalypse, and at the very least puts his nutty dispensationalism over the interests of this country.
look at this thread….u guyz have spent an entire thread that is trying to justify and rationalize Hagee’s bigotry and hatred of the catholic church.
i usta be isomorphic on a lotta stuff with u guyz here.
Hagee is unnacceptable.
al – have the Lutherans really come up with a re-breather that permits the user to emit no CO2? If so, I think you should let the Pope know. Wow, will the gifts of the Lutheran faith ever seize to manifest? You guys are friggin remarkable… a brotherhood of Terrestrial Jacques Cousteaus! Was the re-breather inspired by the Dune books? Does it turn the wearers eyes blue?
nishi – what the hell are you talking about?
Hey Enoch_Root,
Enough with the spittle already. You’re going to judge me on one little jab about the Bonus Deadly Sins? How fragile your faith must be. I make Lutheran jokes too. Jesus loves me this I know. Does Enoch_Root love me? Who gives a shit.
did I judge you, Al? And if I did (which I did not), why do you give a shit? I am just a Papist hack… remember? You needn’t care about what I think. Yes, fragile of faith am I… Poor in Spirit, one might say… or, I am just a thoughtless, ill-considered, sheople of teh Rome.
Hagee is unacceptable.
You know, I feel that way about a whole lot of Islam (mostly the bloodthirsty types.) What solution do you propose to reconcile this uinacceptable state of affairs?
By the way you speak about what you reject, I am sorry to say that the arguments you need to digest would be lost on you… not being a dick, but we would be speaking in remarkably different languages and concepts at remarkably different levels.
This one was directed at The Lost Dog after he shared his view on his faith as he was being ultra-tolerant of any other faith that any other person wishes to choose. There’s not an irony meter with the contiguous states that didn’t peg after Enoch_Root got done with his “I AM SO MUCH BETTER THAN YOU, MY BROTHER IN CHRIST” routine.
Enoch,
I find you heavy on Superbia, and light on Humility. Doom comes to mind.
u guyz have spent an entire thread that is trying to justify and rationalize Hagee’s bigotry and hatred of the catholic church.
Heh. FIRE IN THE HOLE!
Archbishop Gianfranco Girotti, the Vatican’s number two man in the sometimes murky area of sins and penance, spoke of modern evils.
Asked what he believed were today’s “new sins,” he told the Vatican newspaper L’Osservatore Romano that the greatest danger zone for the modern soul was the largely uncharted world of bioethics.
“(Within bioethics) there are areas where we absolutely must denounce some violations of the fundamental rights of human nature through experiments and genetic manipulation whose outcome is difficult to predict and control,” he said.
The Vatican opposes stem cell research that involves destruction of embryos and has warned against the prospect of human cloning.
http://tinyurl.com/25fpau
Apology accepted Enoch_Root. Go in peace.
“But it is fact that the Church didn’t publicly denounce Hitler, and in fact went along with some of the Nazis’ programs.”
Ahem.
http://ewtn.com/library/chistory/zhithsjw.htm
Scroll down to the bit on “Mit Brennender Sorge.”
Then scroll down to the bit about the 1942 Christmas Message.
Then, consider the following:
“Only the Catholic Church protested against the Hitlerian onslaught on liberty. Up till then I had not been interested in the Church, but today I feel a great admiration for the Church, which alone has had the courage to struggle for spiritual truth and moral liberty.” Albert Einstein, quoted in the American Jewish Yearbook, 1944-1945.
Then Google the following:
-Rabbi Barry Dov Schwartz, Conservative Judaism, Summer 1964
-Golda Meir, “Eulogy on behalf of the Nation of Israel to the United Nations” 1958
– Nahum Goldmann, President of the World Jewish Congress, “Letter of Condolence on Pope Pius’ Death” 1958
– Elio Toaff, Chief Rabbi of Rome, Frankfurter Algemeine Zeitung, March 4th 1963.
Then, consider changing your bullshit story.
As to Hagee, this teacher of theology at an all-girl Catholic high school says “Whatever. Standard Issue Calvinist Hysteria at Aesthetics. Precious little to do with actual Theology.” Any serious study of the differences between Catholicism and Protestantism will discover that the differences are all entirely based on a dispute regarding the structure of God’s Church on earth. The only exceptions to this rule are divergences on the afterlife, which pretty much boils down to purgatory, which pretty much boils down to having the books of Maccabees in the Cat’lick canon but not in the Proddy ones. Everything else, from veneration of saints to the number of sacraments, is all about the outward form, which the Proddies find too Babylony. Fine. You’re entitled to your opinion, as I am to mine that any Protestant Church built in the last 100 years has all the divine solemnity of a business park or a Y rec center.
There’s also an element of politics at work, especially the Who Gets to Be in Charge. But this again is Structure. There’s nary a word of the Nicene Creed that C’s & P’s disagree on. And the Lutheran and (to a smaller degree) the Calvinist critique of the 16th century Church are not without some validity. That doesn’t mean as much as you might think. John Calvin’s sole contribution to actual theology – predestination – is fully as daffy as anything a pardoner ever said, and even daffier than the latest Proddy craze, Rapture (the scriptural basis for which is, shall we say, thin).
All the existence of Hagee proves is that some guys are willing to say just about anything to build their flock – even if it means trading in tropes that the rest of the world stopped caring about in the 17th Century. I am fully confident that Pharisees of that sort are rewarded with the Kodak negative of Rapture.
Shia and Sunni Muslims consider each other apostate religions, primarily on theological basis- does this make them both Bigoted? Should we expect the candidates to denounce any support they might have from Shia and Sunni Muslims?
Al – if differing with your tripe w/earnest vigor comes off all better-than-thou-e to your sensitivities, I do apologize that you have taken offense. That does not change my obligation to correct… which is an act of Mercy. And, yes, as I have said before, striking a balance in the Humility department is something I have struggled with and continue as a work in progress to struggle with. Dare I say we could all use a bit more of it… and by all of us… I mean here at PW. Now that I have laid myself out so, you should return the sentiment with equal ownership. Poking fun at something at the expense of truth and knowing full well that the act of making fun was not your only motive, will you fess up to your “joke” being a result of a momentary lapse in self-control that came out in “print” as a purposeful remark to cause harm and pass on memes which do not hold water, so that they can be cited to genuinely hostile folks who would claim, let’s say, 7 concurrent popes? And, yes, I am called to correct and inform… just as you are required to do with me. So, I do not apologize for doing so. Could I have done it with more humility? Probably. For that, I am sorry. But if you would like to argue the merits, rather than get all since-I-disagree-I-think-you-must-be-one-of-those-really-judgy-people-who-should-rather-let-me-flop-around-in-an-un-corrected-irons-of-feel-good-theology, I would be happy to speak to any point you might actually have.
And, btw, I was sincere about the “My Brother in Christ” bit, in spite of your cynicism.
Okay Enoch,
Here is my point, and I’ll let you consider it on your time frame as we are clearly thinking on two different intelligence levels:
If you are the Public Relations Department for Catholicism or Christianity for that matter, prepare for a sharp drop in donations.
Another point, by telling everyone that your “not being a dick” you just force people to think of you in terms of dick-not dick. That’s a loser. That’s more of a tip than a point.
And finally, when mind reading becomes one of the 38 Deadly Sins, you’ll really be in trouble.
I know your struggling, but how hard would it have been to write something along the lines of “al, nice attempt at humor, but I’m really serious about my denomination and I’d appreciate it if you wouldn’t make light of OUR tenants.”
To which I may have answered, “I apologize Enoch_Root, I meant no harm, please forgive me.”
But now we’re stuck on you totally not being a dick and me being the same as I’ve always been – charmingly irreverent.
And by “tenants” I’m sure we both mean the folks paying controlled rent at the Vatican? You know the ones in charge of the tenets.
“al, nice attempt at humor, but I’m really serious about [the Faith] and I’d appreciate it if you wouldn’t make light of [the Faith’s] tenants.â€Â
:) come home, al!
Geez. I didn’t post this to cause a PW schism. I’m regretting it, now. This is Jeff’s place. He’s pretty secular.
There’s a certain degree to which I feel comfortable importing my own concerns, and due to the comments, I’ve passed that by a goodly margin.
Newsbreak – Dan Collins is a pussy! Al and Enoch sign peace accord. all is well.
Pablo, WTF does this have to with Islam?
I think……alla u are actually just as repulsed by Hagee as i am, but u wont admit it cuz u know u must have theocons to win the general.
the theocons.
Squawk Theocons Squawk
Theocons theocons sis boom bah
the’re just not as cool as my allah
I apologize Enoch_Root, I meant no harm. Please forgive me.
We Lutherans can be an unserious bunch. May the Lord come strong with the countenances.
Now that feels good. Who’s up for a Fresca?
wow educationguy.
no wonder everyone here is down on teachers.
Who goes down on teachers?
I can understand why you would be mad at them, since they seemed to have skipped basic grammar and spelling and gone right to texting for N00bs. It’s never too late nishi.
one of the core themes of PW is that public education is teh suxor.
cuz of bad teachers and teachers unions.
guess u missed it.
Wow, I’m sorry I’m late to this free for all. I’d like to add my own perspective as I have on other discussions of a religious nature.
First of all I come at this with a differing background than most you. I was raised Portuguese Catholic for the first 14 years of my life, including two years of Catholic school and several years of CCD and mass every Sunday (often without Dad who was and is contemptuous of all religion.) I fell away from the faith in high school, descending into that religious monotone of “I believe in God but not in organized religion,” which was way to prevent religion from making it inconvenient to have the best time possible. 70’s style sex, drugs, booze and rock and roll followed until I fell in love and got married.
Like many couples in the 80’s, my wife and I felt the need to re-establish a connection with organized religion FOR THE SAKE OF THE CHILDREN!! As she came from a casual Baptist background the Catholic church was out. Several starts and stops through multiple denominations resulted in membership to the Presbyterian Church where we continue to this day.
Sorry for the long intro but I wanted to lead up to my personal feelings about the whole Catholic/Protestant thang. I think that Hagee is full of crap and projecting exclusionist theology for his and his own congregation’s benefit. Personally, I disagree theologically with the intercessionary nature of the earthly church with regards to faith, sin, forgiveness and sanctification. I also disagree theologicallywith the raising of the saints and the transubstantiation of the elements of communion and, more importantly, the resulting concept of Christ’s re-sacrifice by ordained humans. All of the above are disagreements in biblical theology and, in my humble opinion, do not create barriers to salvation due to competing doctrines.
That having been said, about every three years I help teach a Sunday school class on denominations during which I handle the Catholic portion. I manage to get a decent laugh by beginning the class by saying, “Hi, my name is [BJTex] and I’ve been Catholic free for 25 years now. That’s right, I’m a recovering Cathaholic!” I know, ha ha stupid. What follows is the important part. I spend the very first portion of the class discussing all of the theological and practical ways that Protestants and Catholics are connected. At the end of the class, I declare my opinion that the beliefs that unite Catholics and Protestants are more important than the ones that cause us to disagree.
For me, what it all comes down to is a willingness to seek those areas where we can clasp hands and nod our heads. Hagee represents those on both sides of the great divide that are more interested in burnishing their own salvational bona fides than they are in seeing a bigger picture of God’s redemption for a broken world. The more I study, the more I learn, the more I may understand the differences, the more resolute and justified I become in proclaiming those connections in faith than in arguing the differences (although I’m more than happy to engage in such!)
I own a Douey-Rheems Catholic bible from 1952 that has an extensive introduction by a Chicago Cardinal detailing the various “heresies” and “apostasies” of Protestants. There was a time in my more ignorant stage when such pronouncements would piss me off. Now the more I learn the more likely I am to move past such hyperbole and seek the essences of communal faith rather than the stones of doctrinal differences.
Thanks for your patience.
I didn’t miss anything.
I was testing you and you failed.
F-A-I-L-E-D.
It’s just something your going to have to live with.
Also, I’m not a teacher.
“Hi, my name is [BJTex] and I’ve been Catholic free for 25 years now. That’s right, I’m a recovering Cathaholic!â€Â
yuck
“I disagree theologically with the intercessionary nature of the earthly church with regards to faith, sin, forgiveness and sanctification. I also disagree theologically with the raising of the saints and the transubstantiation of the elements of communion and, more importantly, the resulting concept of Christ’s re-sacrifice by ordained humans. All of the above are disagreements in biblical theology and, in my humble opinion, do not create barriers to salvation due to competing doctrines.”
Excellently put, except where I would say that I agree with all the things you disagree with. This ain’t 1619. Let’s get over it.
You know, Andrew, it’s really crappy of you to say in two short sentences what took me a short story to explain. ;-)
/wicked grin
PW usta be a lot more secular.
i guess the theocons have taken over here just like they have taken over the republican party.
right – that’s the whole separation of church and Slate thing, hey?
Cool. When topical, I think it makes sense to speak to religion. Theocon… sure.
Theocon, theocon on the wall
who’s the secularist of all.
Why, changiness is, of course
No difference ‘tween men and quarter horse!
Nor difference among them can I see
except that those who believe
and accept those like me
93…
I think……alla u are actually just as repulsed by Hagee as i am, but u wont admit it cuz u know u must have theocons to win the general.
You are getting closer. I don’t like him. At all. The issue I have is trying to compare an endorsement from a preacher one hardly knows, to a 20 year mentor whose church you attend. And what seems to me to be a distorted and exagerated interpretation of Hagee’s rhetoric. And your continued confusion of fact and opinion.
I’m still waiting for someone to better explain/define who or what the “Great Whore” of Revelation 17 is referencing, and then elaborate on why they think their particular view is less bigoted than that of John Hagee.
Until that point much of this criticism of Hagee is rather slanderous and hypocritical.
Consider the ignorant slurs that attempt to paint Hagee as an Anti-Semite, and juxtapose them with his own words from his website.
“Every Christian should remember the debt of gratitude the Christian community owes to the Jewish community. The Jewish people do not need Christianity to explain their existence or their origin. But Christians cannot explain their existence without Judaism. It was the Jewish people who gave us the written Scripture. They gave us the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. They gave us the disciples and the apostle Paul. The Jewish people gave to Christianity the first Christian family, Mary, Joseph, and Jesus-our Savior! If you take away the Jewish contribution to Christianity, there is nothing left.
Geopolitically speaking, we should support Israel because it is the only true democracy in the Middle East. The tiny democracy of Israel is surrounded by feudal states and brutal dictatorships that control vast regions of land and oil resources. The presence of the Israeli Defense Forces brings stability to that part of the world.
The current conflict in the Middle East is not just about land; it’s about Israel’s right to exist as a nation. The land has never belonged to the people who now call themselves Palestinians. The area was named Palestine by the Romans, but there has never been a nation called Palestine, and there is no Palestinian language. Before 1948 these people were Egyptians, Syrians, Jordanians, Iraqis, and citizens of other Arab nations who had moved to the region. They were displaced by the war of 1948, but Israel is not occupying their territory.
Yasser Arafat and the Palestinian Authority clearly do not want peace. During the Clinton Administration they were offered a Palestinian State with part of Jerusalem as its capital, along with control of 97 percent of the West Bank-everything their own negotiators had said was requisite for peace. Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak agreed to the deal, but Yasser Arafat turned it down flat. He walked away from peace, sending a tacit message to the terrorists, who continue their slaughter of innocent lives in their pursuit of destruction of the Jewish State”.
#89
You’re always welcome to leave.
Victor–
Everyone knows it’s Hollywood.
Victor:
Maybe it is and maybe it isn’t but there is a wide range of scholarly opinion as to the great whore and Hagee’s surety of conclusion that allows him to proclaim this as revealed truth strikes one as a reflection of an unhealthy anti-Catholic bias. I say this as a Protestant, Presbyterian and self decribed evangelical (as well as a former Catholic.) It’s not so much Hagee’s exegesis as the nasty edge to his conclusion and the almost gleeful delivery.
watch this Victor.
and this for the defn of the Great Whore.
and this for Hagee’s plans for bringing on the Rapture.
oh, and u cud read Jerusalem Countdown.
one of hagees “books”.
well….rusty is correct.
i belong to the good old days of bullying attack penises and laser-guided semiotic driveby strafings.
it is just inconcievable to that Jeff….well…….nm.
i certainly dont belong here anymore.
:(
but then….i dont really belong anywhere.
but then….i dont really belong anywhere.
I think that is your goal. :-)
one of the core themes of PW is that public education is teh suxor.
cuz of bad teachers and teachers unions.
You can’t say ‘public education is teh sexor’ because there are thousands of public school systems across the country, and many of them are excellent. My own children are getting a great public education right now. But there are bad teachers, bad parents, bad school board, and bad decisions. My complaint is with presidential candidates, acting like they are running for the loca school board, kissing up to teacher’s unions and ignoring the social problems that cause bad districts.
That’s OT, but I didn’t want that mis statement to stand as it was.
I think that is your goal. :-)
nah..i usta belong here.
Jeff invited the vamphyres into his house.
i hafta think hes become one by now.
the garlic braid of my extreme intellect wont keep me safe forevah.
its besst i leave.
:)
nah..i usta belong here.
Jeff invited the vamphyres into his house.
Maybe you’ve changed.
When was the last time you remember ‘belonging'(whatever that means) here?
Yep.
Your intellect isn’t extreme, just your attitude is. Not. The. Same. Thing. It’s more of a watermelon than a garlic braid.
but then….i dont really belong anywhere.
Cry me a river!
When a person comes across as agressively antisocial as yourself, why would you expect a warm welcome, idiot. I have not noted anything exceptional about your intelligence in the face of your repeated claims. You might want to get another reading on that ego.
Maybe you’ve changed.
lulz i was a guest blogger here in Jeff’s “Pottery Barn Period”.
i dont think i cud blog here now.
PW has changed……its been taken over by theocons.
just like the republican party.
look….our issue sets dont intersect any more.
theocon main issues are; abortion, gay marriage, school vouchers
IMHO, none of that stuff shud even be in government.
i think at this point…the whole “bad teachers/teachers unions/vouchers” meme is just a stalking horse so that xians can get paid for homeschoolin so they can keep their kids in thot prison forevah.
pretty cynical.
nishi – You are the only person talking about those fucking issues, incessantly.
If this site is overwhelmed with theocons, and the only issues of import are abortion, gay marriage and school vouchers …then what is with all this other shit that is discussed on this site? We need to FOCUSE a bit better.
As for vouchers being a stalking horse – please, Nishi,come to Detroit. I’ll take you on a tour. And then I’ll introduce you to some REAL homeschoolers. NONE of whom want vouchers (for themselves.) Most want nothing to do with government money, because they don’t want state interference.
its mostly like the Engineer Moties in Pornelle and Nivens book.
at first they are just makin the ship work better…fixing ship things.
but pretty soon they that changing all the ship functions to motie functions.
carin i told u
if bad teachers–> [cause] detroit school drop out rate, then there wud be comparable drop out rates in all schools that use the same standards for teacher accreditation and hiring.
i suspect SES of the neighborhood is the real negative correlate with dropout rate.
carin all the other stuff that is discussed is just ship functions that are being changed to Motie functions.
like bashing dem candidates is to support gettin mccain elected so more Motie functions can implemented.
can be implemented.
look, im out.
this is pointless….its Jeffs blog, obviously this is wat he wants it to be now.
finnimalyyah
nishi has a narrative, and she is sticking to it.
xians can get paid for homeschoolin
That is a new one on me.
WHAT!!? nishi’s leaving. What happened? What’d I miss? Is she coming back? Please tell me she’s coming back.
f bad teachers–> [cause] detroit school drop out rate, then there wud be comparable drop out rates in all schools that use the same standards for teacher accreditation and hiring.
i suspect SES of the neighborhood is the real negative correlate with dropout rate.
I never said it was simply bad teachers. It is a BAD SCHOOL SYSTEM. Everything is broke, top to bottom. The board of eduction. The parents. Everything.
And, since when do all schools use the same standards for hiring? Teacher accreditation is so easy, that just about anyone can be a teacher by going through the motions. The BAR is low. I would say, overwhelming, that public education works where and when the population of that school is functioning at a healthy level. It is unable to serve -at this point -at risk communities. The unions fight against any sort of change that threatens their happy existence. THAT is a big part of the problem.
lulz i was a guest blogger here in Jeff’s “Pottery Barn Periodâ€Â.
Yes, I remember.
I also remember that when you came back here a few weeks ago, you announced that you had
“death threats” (or something) when you co-blogged here, and you also pointed out how many places you’ve been
banned. It seems to me you were letting any new people here know that you are controversial! and different!
Well, you are different, and people here engage you all the time. That seems not to be enough for you. Did you want to
be banned?
“/wicked grin
PW usta be a lot more secular.
i guess the theocons have taken over here just like they have taken over the republican party.”
The Babbling One has Our Number! We’re all theocons! You see, if you’re a Republican, and conversant on religious subjects, you’re a theocon, even if in your opinion the federal government should be involved in no religious issues (how that’s gonna work when the Supremes said abortion is a federally-guarunteed right, I don’t know).
[…] PROTEIN WISDOM– “Caric on PW & Anti-Catholic Bigotry” …. […]