February 29, 2008

Election 2008: Your must-read on the white male swing vote [Karl]

Having written on working-class white men as a swing vote, with related posts on white support for Hillary Clinton and white male support for Barack Obama, I highly recommend a piece by David Paul Kuhn at the Huffington Post, “White Men Seen All Wrong.”  The lede:

Washington analysts are beginning to notice a curious fact of the Democratic race. In a primary contest between the first black or female nominee, white men are the critical swing vote. Yet despite white males still disproportionately representing us in politics, we still misunderstand them as voters.

There remains a chasm between our conception of the powerful executive and the reality of the everyman. Our culture continues to define the typical white man more for his vice than virtue. The perception of the “angry white male” has not left us. Many still remain apprehensive to discuss white men as a constituency. They are, after all, supposed to be the reason we have to focus on constituencies…

Kuhn then proceeds to briskly shatter a number of myths about the white male vote, with implications for both the Democratic primary campaign and the general election.

Kuhn notes that for all of the media talk about whether white men have a problem with Clinton or Obama, white men have been the most willing to shift between the two candidates.  His analysis is consistent with my view that Clinton’s working-class white support was vulnerable to erosion as low-information voters tuned into the campaign, with white men being the easier target for Obama inasmuch as they are not as emotionally invested in electing the first woman president.  Kuhn also suggests, based on data for the white male vote from the 2004 general election, that Clinton’s best hope of holding onto those voters was to focus on the economy, as I have also suggested.

Another myth shattered is the one spread by columnists like Paul Krugman and Nation editor Katrina Vanden Heuvel, that only Southern white men left the Democratic Party in the past few decades:

Between 1960 and 2004, Democrats lost 12 percent of the non-Southern white men and 17 percent of white men in the South. For once and for all: the Democratic decline was not merely due to the “Southern Flip.”

It is also a myth that Bill Clinton won many of them back to the Democratic Party in 1992:

Exit polls actually show that in 1992 Bill Clinton won essentially the same portion of white men as Michael Dukakis in 1988. It was Ross Perot who siphoned off these men, as well as a lesser portion of white women, and undid George H.W. Bush.

I might take slight issue here, insofar as political scientists still debate what the 1992 election would have looked like absent Perot, e.g., how many Perot voters would have stayed home and who would have been the second choice of those who did not.  However, the example still supports Kuhn’s general point about the white male swing vote.  Republicans who lose that vote lose elections.

Regarding the general election, Kuhn writes:

That Obama has proven more capable of winning white men of late, particularly independents, is germane to the general election ahead. Overwhelmingly, the voters who left the Democratic Party in the past half century are white working and middle class men. The outcome of the 2008 presidential race will depend on whether Democrats can win a portion of these men back.

This is particularly true of white male independent voters, who both Republican pollster Kellyanne Conway and Obama pollster Cornell Belcher see as a key demographic. 

Kuhn further looks at the white male vote from the 2004 election, describing differences with implications for 2008:

Consider when 2004 voters were asked what issue mattered most in deciding whom to support. White men who voted Republican said they supported the candidate who “has clear stands on the issues” (30 percent), is a “strong leader” (31 percent), or is “honest and trustworthy” (18 percent). This is why I emphasize in my book that “grit” is the value underlying all values politics. This is especially true for the white men who Democrats lost.

Meanwhile, of those white men who voted for John Kerry: five percent valued that their candidate was a “strong leader,” 10 percent valued most that he had “clear stands on the issues,” and nine percent said is “honest and trustworthy.” White men, like white women, are not one monolith. Yet in the general election, the patterns shared by all those white men who left Democrats will have to be considered by the political left.

Those white males who supported Kerry most valued the personal qualities of a candidate who “will bring about needed change” (47 percent), is intelligent (17 percent), and “cares about people like me” (13 percent). That “change” ranked so high on the list explains Obama’s appeal, at least in part.

Conversely, I would suggest it is the “grit” Kuhn identifies that explains much of McCain’s appeal.  It appears to match up with the attitudes about, change, honesty, etc. that turned up in the January Pew poll.

The newly-released February Pew poll has head-to-head match-up questions that also appear to match up well with the above analyses — and are roughly similar in their internals to the Fox and L.A. Times polls previously discussed here.   In these three polls, there is a consistent pattern of McCain doing better with Democrats against Obama than he would against Clinton.  The new Pew poll sheds some light here:

One-in-five white Democrats (20%) say that they will vote for McCain over Obama, double the percentage who say they would switch sides in a Clinton-McCain matchup (10%). Roughly the same number of Democrats age 65 and older say they will vote for McCain if Obama is the party’s choice (22%). Obama also suffers more defections among lower income and less educated Democratic voters than does Clinton.

In addition, female Democrats look at the race differently depending on the matchup. While 93% of women in the party say they would vote for Clinton over McCain, just 79% say they would support Obama over McCain.

A quarter of Democrats (25%) who back Clinton for the nomination say they would favor McCain in a general election test against Obama.

Given what is known about the demographics that have been supporting Clinton, and Obama’s overwhelming popularity with black voters, it could be hypothesized that the white Democrats who would support McCain over Obama tend to be women and working-class white men.

More broadly, while we do not get the data necessary to isolate white men to the degree needed for solid conclusions, the margin of Obama’s lead in the new Pew poll (still about at the margin of error) is likely attributable to his splitting the male vote — both overall and among independents.  Making the modest assumption that Obama does very well with the black male vote in most polls, the difference between the McCain lead in the L.A. Times poll and the Obama lead in the new Pew poll is probably attributable to the sample of white men (women break for Obama in both polls).  The margin of error when addressing these sub-groups is large enough that the most anyone can say is that the swing white male remains up for grabs as the party nominees are being selected.

Update:  Insta-lanche!

Posted by Karl @ 6:50am
146 comments | Trackback

Comments (146)

  1. Kuhn’s audience wouldn’t have this problem if their world-views were based on something other than Marxism and all of its bastardized off-shoots of identity politics circa 1968.

  2. David Paul Kuhn does not read PW, evidentily. PW is the first line of resistance to Hillary and Barack, but that’s just politics. Most of us here are only bigoted toward sissyfied White Men who go by their first, middle and last name.

  3. damn, I forget Jeb’s middle name!

  4. That “change” ranked so high on the list explains Obama’s appeal, at least in part.

    These stupid crackers only have nine months to figure out that the interminable invocations of Bush-McCain are not reflective of a new kind of politics.

    Think, little crackers, think.

  5. “Ellis”

  6. You’re a hater for just thinking of a middle name, dave. Or for even considering that middle names exist.

  7. Kuhn is a racist.

  8. I agree. Working class men and lower middle class people in general as far as income are the forgotten class for either party. McCain looks good to them but his economic policies aren’t too appealing (tax cuts don’t speak to them as they pay a lot more social security taxes than fed income taxes).

    Damned 4 bucks a gallon gas doesn’t help Republicans though. But neither Clinton nor Obama have offered radical substantial remedies for us. I’d like to see the health insurance and oil companies nationlized myself. That’d save about 10 percent of the GNP by itself. Then a major investment into alternative energies…not the jokey stuff either of the three current candidates have offered so far.

  9. I bite, I bad…

  10. I hear Venezuela is nice this time of year, dave.

  11. I’m thinking that the government should really be doing something to keep gas prices down, like maybe invading a Middle East nation with substantial petroleum reserves. A war for oil, as it were.

    But then that’d lead to increased usage, which would turn the globe into a sweltering miasma. Can’t win either way, it appears.

  12. Let’s not forget that the 100% guaranteed, dyed in the wool, carved in stone, dynamited into the mountainside fallout from a McCain win in the general election (with a majority of white, male votes)over Hopey Obamachange will be the legion cries of “Racist America!” from the distraught left and the scholarly pages of The Guardian.

    Most of you will have been enablers, you ‘thugs you. I, however, will invoke the melanin shield of my pure blood Portuguese and will watch as those cries skewer your dark, rovian, caucasian hearts.

    Good luck with that!

  13. Just what we need. Health insurance and gasoline, delivered with the attitude and competence of the IRS, TSA and the DMV.

  14. I’d like to see the health insurance and oil companies nationlized myself. That’d save about 10 percent of the GNP by itself.

    Any actual proof for this brain-poundingly stooopid assertion ?

  15. Oh, Mike, let’s not forget the bright shining abilites of Medicare and the VA.

    Datadave: Question for you: Why should I have confidence in the proper and efficient running of a national health insurance system from the very same people who give me Medicare and the VA? The insurance companies get all of the black press about denying claims and playing games with the paperwork. However ask a few doctors to comment on the worse organizations for payment and paperwork and every damn one of them will say Medicare! We haven’t even touched upon the labyrinthian headache that is the VA.

    Why should I feel good about them running my health care?

  16. Sorry, Mark. Never drink before lunch.

  17. Most of you will have been enablers, you ‘thugs you. I, however, will invoke the melanin shield of my pure blood Portuguese and will watch as those cries skewer your dark, rovian, caucasian hearts.

    My brown skinned better half and daughter told me, just this morning “JD, we don’t think you are racist. The rest of the filthy scummy racist Republicans are, though”.

  18. Unlike Obama, Clinton refers to her Democratic opponent often on the campaign trail in her stump speech and in casual talks with voters.

    She did so again Thu in Pomeroy, Ohio, talking with about 10 people in a mobile home in a heavily rural county where the poverty rate approaches 20%.

    Clinton: “I have a plan that would cover everybody, my opponent does not,” she said. “He would leave 15 million people out. It’s like Social Security. Everybody’s in Social Security. That’s what we have to do with health care.”

    Crackers:

    Crackers: You ain’t touched yer Nehi. You want we got Sunny D in the icebox.

  19. Clinton: Um….

    Cracker: Hey, Doreen! Go that big old bottle out of the fridge and us’n some them there Ring Dings. Thay’s only ’bout a week old and you kin eat around the dry parts!

  20. JD: I’m sorry, but Melanin Shield By Proxy™ carries not teh same mojo as teh pure blood. Be sure to stay behind wife and daughters after the General for a few days.

  21. And that BJTexs, racist to the bone. There is no tribe of people more racist than imperialist christianist spawn of capitalist running dog immigrants. But I still like you.

  22. True, because I am pasty white. Prolly because of all of that paste that I eat, with a tongue depressor as a spoon. And because it has been ass cold from the Rockies to the Atlantic for about 4 straight months and algore’s fucking man made global warming keeps focusing its rays on areas where it is already balmy. Midwesterners are being discriminated against in this whole AGW thing. Where can I file my protest?

  23. Well, JD, nobody expects the imperialist christianist spawn of capitalist running dog immigrants.

    NEE!

  24. BJ #12:

    Your comment has some problems, such as

    (1) The Guardian – since they don’t cover the NBA, NASCAR, or the NFL no one of those white male swing voters will have heard of it or care. If by some chance they do hear of The Guardian, well it got such a great reaction to ‘Operation Clark County’ four years ago, didn’t it.

    (2) Skewer my black rovian caucasian heart? Impossible! My heart was placed in a titanium box years ago on the off-chance that I may need it some day. Today isn’t that day, and the rest of the year doesn’t look good for that either.

    (3) The cries of outraged progressives are the soundtrack of my life; I live for it. It’s sweeter than drinking their tears.

  25. Damned 4 bucks a gallon gas doesn’t help Republicans though.

    So we need to follow the Democrats’ lead and raise taxes on gas. (Again.) That will show the peasants peones lower-middle-class that their betters care about them.

  26. Drumwaster – I saw that last night too. Successful business? Let’s punish their capitalistic asses. Want to reduce the price of gasoline? I’ve got it. Tax their fucking asses. Good Lord, are they dense. Consistently doctrinaire though.

  27. God forbid that we drill for oil where the oil is, though.

  28. What a conundrum we have as a society!

    If the blacks monilithically vote for Obama, and he becomes president, we will become a post-racist nation in the eyes of the world.

    If the black vote only goes 80% Obama, which would ensure his loss, we’re still stuck on racist.

    Creating an egalitarian society is more complicated than it sounds, as Maximilien Robespierre found out.

  29. Want to reduce the price of gasoline? I’ve got it. Tax their fucking asses. Good Lord, are they dense.

    That never ceases to amaze me. One day they’re telling us all how horrible things are, citing the price of gas as an example — and it DOES ripple through the economy — and the next they’re increasing the price of gas.

  30. I’m waiting for someone … perhaps Maverick, to ask Osama how much profit he THINKS that Exxon should make. Oooooo, the prospect of that answer is too delicious to contemplate by itself. Needs to be cut with some baking soda to be palatable.

    Like I have periodically been beating the drum on this site for a few months, increased gasoline costs are a lot easier on the pocket book, if you follow the adage of “joining ‘em if you can’t beat them”. My investments in oil companies, oil ETFs like XLF and commodity based mutual funds have generated returns that have far outstripped my extra outlays for gasoline in the last 6 months. Heck, my agricultural funds are up 70+%.

    Why won’t someone sell that kind of kool aid instead of class warfare?

  31. Over the weekend I rented a movie called “Rendition”. It turned out to be a surprisingly relevant and informative film for today. The movie’s main character, Reese Witherspoon, plays a pregnant mother of one whose husband didn’t arrive at the airport following a business trip to South Africa. He was being tortured. Hence, the new, headline-making, controversial term, “water boarding”. The movie hinted to its formal name, “extraordinary rendition”, and I did some research. There is an article published in The New Yorker describing the very story from the movie, having happened to a Canadian man who was taken to Syria to be tortured. It is a true story!

    What left me feeling sad, more tolerant, and ultimately very disturbed, was yet another sign that my personal decision to continue to vote Democratic is a wise choice. You only need to visit the DNC website and read the policies for which the Democrats strongly represent. Its so disturbing to me also, when I hear a Republican determine that a Democrat isn’t likely to be Christian. This I cannot understand.

    Now for the subject at hand: Who Gets My Vote? And Why?

    CLINTON OR OBAMA?
    This is a surprisingly easy decision for me to make. Clearly the media would like the voters to believe that supporters of Clinton are uneducated and of a lower income. Does this mean I am not allowed to vote for her since I don’t meet the criteria? If I only had time to catch the news and base my decision on a great sounding speech, or on the commentary of a “fair and balanced” journalist, I suppose I should fall into the Obama category. I do not. It is going to take a lot more than a soothing, seductive speech to sway my vote.

    My reasons are substantial. Clinton has my trust. She has outlined solid and detailed plans that address all the issues we face each day. Her strength is and has been very apparent. She has been consistent in following up with and developing solutions for our issues. Because of her experience, she is able to be realistic about what she will face. Most importantly, she wants to be held accountable. Just like the horrible torture in the movie I saw over the weekend, its undeniable! What puzzles me is why America would vote for anyone else. Or why pause at all? The choice is clear. It sounds stubborn of me to think that my opinion makes the most sense – but that is truly how I feel. I can appreciate parts of Obama and he would be choice #2. But with all the research I’ve done on Bush, I cannot take a chance on a man I just don’t feel the trust for that warrants my vote.

    FRIGHTENING POWERS A LEADER HOLDS
    Back in the 90s when Clinton was President, Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld & etc., wrote him a letter begging him to invade Iraq to “secure the world’s assets”, OIL. With Iran, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia holding the bulk of the worlds oil, its no surprise Iran was to be next. As he continues to veto every bill, nothing will change until a Democrat takes over. Exxon-Mobil is in the top 10 most profitable companies for 2007, along
    with drug companies, finance companies, and Wal-Mart. Corporate America is making money off the things middle-class America needs: GAS, PRESCRIPTIONS, MORTGAGES and LAUNDRY DETERGENT.

    MONEY TO AFRICA? AREN’T WE BROKE? AND WHAT NO-BID CONTRACTS?
    As for Africa, I’d think his trip there and promises made were far more genuine if the person hired to head up his Aid to Africa Project weren’t the former CEO of Eli Lilly! Any connection between America’s tax dollars and the medications they need? They cannot afford them, so Bush has secured a way for his buddies at the drug companies, (whose patents have already been extended thanks to Bush), to continue to profit long after he’s gone.

    In Brazil, it costs $300 per year per patient to treat HIV/AIDS. In America, since we cannot benefit from the generic forms of these drugs, it costs $10,000 to $12,000 per patient. Since there is so much proof of Bush’s blatant disregard for what American people are most in need of, I am so confused as to why more of us aren’t doing the research? Getting involved? Taking action? Voting for who/what will benefit them?

    There are many sources that list the names of the friends of Bush who got multi-million dollar no-bid government contracts for work. These contracts have cost American voters a lot of money. One friend of his was given a 28 million dollar gift basket contract. No one else was even allowed to submit a proposal. Maybe someone without political bias, someone a bit cheaper!? C’mon George Dub, we’re BROKE!

    In comes Obama. He makes a beautiful speech–no need for America to worry; he’s saying everything we’re thinking. Great! Let’s just vote for him and our problems will be solved. No need to research the policies of each candidate. Its faster and easier to go with what sounds good. And let’s face it, if we don’t know what we’re talking about, we can easily say that Obama wants “change”, and so do we! I mean, who doesn’t want change?

    THE PAID MEDIA AND AMERICA’S RIGHT TO A FAIR ELECTION
    This is what Republicans and their slanted media slaves, including but not limited to Fox News, want you to do. Hillary poses the biggest threat to them, not Obama. Don’t suck in the media coverage of the election, just do a little research. You won’t find it on tv, but you will online! CNN told their reporters to cover the Castro resignation carefully; to point out all the positive things he’d done during his time in power. The New York Post withholding a story about McCain & his lobby connections because they publicly endorsed McCain the week prior. The Republican party is scary! They are everywhere! They own everything! I really would trust Obama more if he weren’t shaking the hands of those greedy GOPs already. And if his speeches offered clear solutions rather than just appealing to those who are satisfied with soothing speeches.

    TIME WELL SPENT
    If you were about to spend $350,000. on a house would you do your research about it first? If you were about to spend $50,000. on a car, would you make an informed and careful decision? How much time would you spend researching before you purchased?

    Hillary 08

    Sharon Jenson

  32. It is a true story!

    errrr, I think it’s a bit more nuanced than you think.

  33. But with all the research I’ve done on Bush,

    He’s running again!? WHY DIDN’T ANYONE TELL ME!!!!!?????

  34. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld & etc., wrote him a letter begging him to invade Iraq to “secure the world’s assets”, OIL.

    link?

  35. The Republican party is scary! They are everywhere! They own everything!

    Then why am I still making payments on my house and car?

    BOO!

  36. No one tell Sharon that the Clinton administration used rendition. It would shatter her whole worldview. That is, if what she cut and pasted here was something she thought up herself.

  37. Maggie: Don’t you just love the Primary Season? Nothing says “Clinton Desperation Time” than Sharon Jenson making multiple trips to our hole in the wall to brew her big vat of kool aide in the anxious hope that someone will take a quaff.

    BTW: I don’t see anything above that has anything to do with the movie “Rendition” but who am I to interrupt the cut and paste Narrative.™ Although I strongly suspect that a “rendition” may be in John Lewis’ future.

    Say no more, say no more!

  38. I lost all interest at “Clinton has my trust.”

  39. What is it with them being all wordy and stuff? Does anyone ever read those screeds? As soon as I saw that the writer, whoever it really was, thought “Rendition” was relevant and informative, I stopped reading. No point, really.

  40. Corporate America is making money off the things middle-class America needs: GAS, PRESCRIPTIONS, MORTGAGES and LAUNDRY DETERGENT.

    McCain is so sitting pretty if this is what they got I think.

  41. That is one solid collection of twatwaffle moonbattiness there. The utter disconnect from facts and reality is breath taking. She did get one thing right – Barry O is a shiny sparkly empty suit.

  42. New! Improved! OBAMA
    Now with more hopeytude!

    So. In the realm of moonbatty speculation . . . do ya think Hill will suicide when she loses the nomination? Just because we have to ponder every sick wish-fulfillment fantasy harbored anywhere by anybody as though it were a legitimate concern.

  43. Dan, you’re making my brain wander all over today. Do you think Bill will survive the next few days?

  44. I’d like to see the health insurance and oil companies nationlized myself.

    ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

    Are you serious or are you just portraying an idiotic socialist for our enjoyment?

  45. Didn’t “Rendition” make, like, $2.31 and a box of Raisinets worldwide? I think they were actually paying hobos and drunks to see it in Prague. Or was that Newark?

    Dan: you forgot to add: and, as always, Changelicious!

  46. LFFLR:

    Are you serious or are you just portraying an idiotic socialist for our enjoyment?

    Yes

  47. I think Sharon’s rant needs more caps lock. My eyes glazed over a few paragraphs in. But by skimming I was able to pick out this gem (Maggie was right)

    This is what Republicans and their slanted media slaves, including but not limited to Fox News, want you to do. Hillary poses the biggest threat to them, not Obama. Don’t suck in the media coverage of the election, just do a little research. .

    Now, I won’t pretend that Sharons actually here reading our responses and ask her to list those “slanted media slaves, including but not limited to Fox news

    Come’on, Sharon. I bet you really couldn’t list too many. Faux … Sean … Rush …and then your voice would kinda trail off, wouldn’t it?

    You won’t find it on tv, but you will online! CNN told their reporters to cover the Castro resignation carefully; to point out all the positive things he’d done during his time in power

    I sure hope they were able to mention those rice steamers. I had me one once. Awfully nice, because w/o a steamer, you really have to watch, and cover and time the whole rice cooking process. I burned some rice just last week.

  48. You guys touch on a connumbrum. What to do with Exxon/Mobil? They are the most profitable corp in the USA at the moment but their profits come at the expense of the rest of the economy. Their profits aren’t that big compared with the rest of the economy, in fact a small fraction and yet the rising costs of their fuel (partly as a consequence of their profits and partly due to dwindling supply and rising demand) are effecting the Trillions in our service sector-dominated economy.

    I threw the “nationalization” idea out there knowing it won’t happen >>unless major hell breaks loose, but the Democrat’s idea of just raising taxes on fuel doesn’t seem sound either. Some govt. action is probably needed but what? Just letting the imperfect market do it’s job doesn’t cut it either…we’re trying to avoid a Depression you know. That Calvin Coolidge/Herbert Hoover stuff didn’t cut it before so we’re not going back there again.

    Actually Jimmy Carter and a Democrat Congress enacted a windfall profits tax which did a good deal (lowered gas costs from 1980 to 1988—Reagan couldn’t repeal it until then) but into the wrong solutions: coal tars extraction that only gave money back to the same energy companies but it didn’t pan out (partly as their lobbyists knew they’d just get their money back)…but plenty of people made money on that one. And don’t blame Carter’s four year Presidency for ‘stagflation’, as it started with a combination of rising payments for Vietnam war losses (major veteren and contractor ‘entitlements’ and debt repayment) and the Oil embargo, resulting in increased unemployment, inflation and low profits…but oil companies made out like bandits then too…leading to the “windfall profits taxes”. That was a better tax than what are now Democrats are considering.

    p.s. I am sick and tired of Doctors complaining about Medicare and Medicaid. It’s all about greed, they like more money for less work that’s why they prefer cash or guaranteed payments from preferred risk pools of private insurance groups. Both govt. run programs have far less overhead than the private ones partly as they do insist on lower payments. If we didn’t have Protectionism of our Two Major Parasitic Occupations: Medicine and Law we’d maybe bring down the cost of health care.

    Hey, I wouldn’t mind a nice pretty Indian doctor or a French one either for less than half the current cost of the arrogant American ones..and the stats show that the Indians and French have better results.

    The Legal profession? eh, that’s a hard one…it’s hard-wired into the Constitution. After all who wrote that thing? The lot of ‘em had ‘esquire’ somewhere in their names.

    p.s. 2 for JD…it’s a guess: Our Health ‘care’ system is 17 percent of GNP…everyone else that’s civilized is around 10 or less of GNP –except for Canada’s which has fee for service rates set by doctors, not patients; and the other industrializeds drink more and smoke more and live longer to boot. (Ireland for example: I’d go there in a heart beat but damn couldn’t afford to live there…housing’s through the roof but they have a great time there thanks to the EU and well, I like to ski, and family’s here.). Minus about 6 percent for our crooked privatized health system.

    Oil companies now sucking up at least 4 percent of GNP in profits..that’s a conservative guess. 4 plus 6 = 1O percent. I realize that oil profits are variable and eventually will go down again. They aren’t usually as high as they are now.

    I await the fact-checker to spank me. Or bite me.

  49. I sure wish Sharon was here. We don’t get the Armadillo much in these parts on Friday anymore. Fun to watch a moonbat twist in the wind.

  50. ja, Carin, I realize she was probably just drivin’ by, but that was too tasty and new to resist.

  51. Maggie–he’s like a cockroach, that one.

  52. One friend of his was given a 28 million dollar gift basket contract.

    um, how would one go about checking this? I couldn’t find a source, but maybe I’m having a “stupid day”

    but Dan, just think how muck sympathy that could get for Hillary. plus, she wouldn’t have to divorce him. (if those rumors are true)

  53. Dataless dave:

    I just don’t have the energy to go through everything that’s either wrong or wrong headed in your stream of unconsciousness but this relates directly to one of my comments:

    I am sick and tired of Doctors complaining about Medicare and Medicaid. It’s all about greed, they like more money for less work that’s why they prefer cash or guaranteed payments from preferred risk pools of private insurance groups. Both govt. run programs have far less overhead than the private ones partly as they do insist on lower payments.

    The last Doctor I talked to (a psychologist) told me he no longer accepts medicare patients. This is a guy who makes his living (mostly) on county contracts to do evaluations of both juvenile and adult violent offenders along with a small private practice. He’s not wealthy but is fairly well off. He told me that he could take the worse health insurance company and Medicare would still be worse by a factor of 5. It was less about the the amount of money and more about administrative games. Because Medicare operates on quarterly allotments they have been known to overspend. What happens next is the paperwork dance from hell in the third month of almost every quarter. This is something that is faced by everyone in health care who deals with Medicare and it has been going on for years. They’ve managed to clean up some of the bureaucratic bumbling but much of it still remains.

    That’s not to say that there aren’t greedy Doctors who have taken advantage of the system but to just whitewash the entire profession while ignoring the real problems with Medicare (and we haven’t even touched on the VA, have we?) is just plain lazy and ignorant.

  54. I think the entity known as Sharon is a political troll-spammer. That entity posted the exact same nonsense as a comment to a pub post I made.

    I will note that happyfeet and I both picked out the same sentence upon which to comment.

  55. The fact that dd thinks an American doctor is arrogant but a French one wouldn’t be says a lot – his synapses, they ain’t a firin’.

  56. The last Doctor I talked to (a psychologist)

    BJ,

    I am so sorry that I ever made sport of you or made it look like I was making fun of you, or that time that I wrote your name BJtexas just to emphasize the BJ as kind of a sex bomb. I had no idea you were in therapy and I congratulate you on your courage to seek help.

  57. ha ha,found her she seems to be really proud of that post.

  58. My French doctor friend did his residency in a small clinic on the Riveria, but he was really a nice guy and even helped me sheetrock while he was on vacation. Hey, I know some nice American ones…c’ya.

  59. Hillary says her women supporters project their feelings onto her, you know, they see how hard it is. I think that means a lot of aging white women want to be taken from behind by Barack. Arf.

  60. “ha ha,found her she seems to be really proud of that post.”

    The phrase “dumb blonde” immediately springs to mind.

  61. She has a profile at helium.com? Many jokes come to mind.

  62. Windfall profits tax? Oh yes, let the Democrats take us back to Jimmy Carter’s misery index days. And, FYI, I was working in a utility company complying with it on Natural Gas. They plugged it back into the rate base and raised Natural Gas utility rates.

    Gee, I wonder who paid for that?

  63. I am afraid that Democratic males will vote for a black man rather than a white woman. They may say that men in other culturss where they make women cover their faces, not vote, cook and make babies are wrong. However, when push comes to shove, the Amerocam white men, and black men too, will not give power to a woman. And do they think they are different than or better than Middle East cultures who subjigate women?

  64. Kuhn notes that for all of the media talk about whether white men have a problem with Clinton or Obama, white men have been the most willing to shift between the two candidates.

    Because of the patriarchy!

  65. According to her profile Sharon Jensen wants to be the best Mom she can be.

    If I only had a Hillary Clinton pinata and an aluminum baseball bat.

  66. Deep, Virginia. You think that all up by yourself? Or’d your husband help?

  67. However, when push comes to shove, the Amerocam white men, and black men too, will not give power to a woman.

    So how do you suppose she got elected to the Senate?

  68. Pablo,

    Do you mean besides having married Bill Clinton?

  69. http://www.helium.com/tm/212108/inside-ourselves-beliefs-personal

    Once you become a parent you have to make decisions right away for someone beside yourself. Should you use drugs during childbirth? What will the baby’s name be? What kind of diapers will you buy, should you buy formula or breast feed, cloth or disposable diapers, buy the baby food or make your own? Needless to say, I did a lot of pondering in those days.

    The birth of my son changed my entire life and the way I viewed the world. Sorry dad, I couldn’t possibly be a Republican now. I wanted no more war, clean air to breathe, a good education for my son, and a right to speak my mind. I felt a certain panic once I began to ponder, I decided I had a lot of work to do and I had to do it fast. Recycle bins, register to vote, volunteer park clean-up, adopt a needy family for Christmas, drop off those toys at the local children’s orphan center. Busy, busy, busy.

    I think I want to flush Sharon’s cats.

  70. I was hoping she had some sourcing, but no such luck.

  71. he birth of my son changed my entire life and the way I viewed the world. Sorry dad, I couldn’t possibly be a Republican now. I wanted no more war, clean air to breathe, a good education for my son, and a right to speak my mind

    Makes you hate women, doesn’t it?

  72. p.s. I am sick and tired of Doctors complaining about Medicare and Medicaid. It’s all about greed, they like more money for less work…

    Damn bastards. How dare they expect payment for their services! How dare they make a judgment on the administrative costs of dealing with the government! Damned bastards should just be enslaved nationalized!

  73. Funny how we complain about how greedy doctors are, when entertainers (and sports figures) seem to really fill out the ranks of the rich and famous. Millions for ONE movie? It’s obscene. I say we nationalize the entire entertainment industry.

    Can I get an amen?

  74. She has a profile at helium.com? Many jokes come to mind.

    Yes, it makes it convenient for quick refills of her head in btween posts.

  75. Do you mean besides having married Bill Clinton?

    Karl, someone still had to pull the other lever, many, many, many times.

  76. The fact that Sharon gets to make decisions that will effect a child’s life is disturbing. There appears to be pressure on the helium supply. I suggest investing in helium futures.

  77. Sharon is an astoundingly stupid woman. Bucket headed blonde indeed.

  78. #48
    It’s drugs. Right? You’re smokin’ crack or something. Either that or you’re, what, 19 years old. Noone can be that enormously, vigorously , misinformed without outside help.

    Daaaave? Healthcare in England, Canada, and Cuba have enormous overhead, because they are run by their respective governments. They also have better ‘stats’ because they quit treating people with terminal illnesses that drs here, in the US, try to help.

    You really need some basic understanding of economics. Guess what Exxon et. al. do with all that money, Dave? Go on. Give it a guess.

  79. Guess what Exxon et. al. do with all that money, Dave?

    Stuff it in a giant vault and swim around in it, of course.

  80. “Racist America!”

    Even though I voted for Keyes?

    “angry white male”

    I prefer to think of myself as mad.

    Quite, actually.

  81. Noone can be that enormously, vigorously , misinformed without outside help.

    I’ll match Sharon up with anyone.

  82. since they don’t cover the NBA, NASCAR, or the NFL

    Not to forget my favorite, the National Honckey League!

  83. Why won’t someone sell that kind of kool aid instead of class warfare?

    Because our Public Schools can’t afford to teach reading anymore.

  84. PAY UP RETHUGS !!!

  85. For both reasons.

  86. Sorry, people, I’ve been Epiphanated.

    I’m voting for Barack Inssein Obama.

    Carry on.

  87. Rob. That’s Scrooge McDuck. Exxon spends it on very rare caviar, fine cuban cigars and asian hookers. Every last dime. Then they raise the price of gas in Dave’s neighborhood. And then they laugh.

  88. Rob. That’s Scrooge McDuck. Exxon spends it on very rare caviar, fine cuban cigars and asian hookers.

    Sounds like I’m in the wrong industry. I’ll skip the cigars, and the caviar I could do without. But, um, yeah, I’ll go for the hookers.

    And the swimming in the money.

    With the hookers.

    Sorry. Friday night…

  89. I am afraid that Democratic males will vote for a black man rather than a white woman.

    You don’t know that for sure, they should get a woman to run some time and see.

  90. Jimmy Carter and a Democrat Congress

    d2d,

    !!!

  91. Where’s my gun…

  92. When in the course of human events…

  93. Rifle, actually.

  94. Rabbit, maybe.

  95. This is my…

  96. Exxon spends it on very rare caviar, fine cuban cigars and asian hookers.

    Actually, they only spend most of it on those things.

    The rest they waste. <rimshot>

  97. Sharon’s post is pretty damn funny when you think about it. The “reality based community” is fond of chiding us troglodytes with sayings such as “life is not a movie” or “war is not a video game”. What’s the thing that Sharon uses to preface her entire spiel of sanctimonious horseshit? A MOVIE!! And a shitty one at that.

    Reminds of a Bush-hating friend of mine who has learned most of his historical knowledge from TV or the movies, which means essentially that he doesn’t know shit about history. Damn pesky books…when will I ever learn that history is to be regarded as an inconvenient subject that must be alternately rewritten and/or used to beat people over the head when it suits a certain viewpoint?

  98. Sharon I got news for you. Al Gore (in Richard Clarke’s Against All Enemies) told Clinton to ignore Lloyd Cutler (WH Counsel against rendition). Gore: “Of course it’s against international law. That’s why it’s a covert operation. The guy is a terrorist. Go grab his ass.”

    This is reality. Obambi, aka Barack Hussein Obama will be up against it when voters realize an episode of the West Wing is no solution for Pakistan’s brand new democracy … ending cooperation with the US military to wax AQ and Taliban. And cuts off our supply route into Afghanistan (which would be wildly popular, I’m shocked it has not happened already). Leading to a hurried bug-out as supplies run out. That’s not to mention Pakistan’s post-Musharraf military looking the other way when Osama’s boys “borrow” a nuke or two (that would also be wildly popular there). Or Iran lights off a nuke. Or we get more planes crashing into buildings or a baseball stadium courtesy of the Dems shutdown of surveillance of AQ and Jihadis. Or the Russians backing Serbia with military force and assassinations. Putin’s enemies have a bad habit of drinking polonium 210 tea or falling out of windows or getting shot in elevators.

    Barack Hussein Obama has already been caught lying about his private assurances to Canada that NAFTA will remain (both his advisor and Canadian Embassy confirmed it). His collapse when white males figure out he’s weaker than Jimmy Carter and Mike Dukakis in a slap fight will be stunning. He might even drag most of the Blue Dogs down with him. And don’t forget … Farrakhan is always good for laughs. Obambi doesn’t have the stones to slap down his pal Louis. The 527′s will paint Barack Hussein Obama as Farrakhan Lite, believe it.

  99. Might I also suggest reading Gary Hubble’s article from the Aspen Times? It is complementary to this post. Excellent reading…here’s the link: http://www.aspentimes.com/article/2008198091324

  100. Did data2dave really equate Hoover with Coolidge as a laissez-faire candidate? Uh… didn’t Hoover sign Smoot-Hawley? Didn’t he run a “Reconstruction Finance Corporation” to try to bail out all the businesses that failed? Good grief, Hoover was such a meddler that FDR campaigned to his right on economic policy: calling Hoover “reckless and extravagant” and one who believed “that we ought to center control of everything in Washington as rapidly as possible”. FDR’s running mate Garner called Hoover (insultingly) a socialist.

    Data, to “Data2dave”, is like kryptonite to Superman.

  101. Hi, Curious about the Obambi consensus here. My sense is that he’s a lot stronger than people think at first glance. Is it all about the international diplomacy and withdrawal from Iraq talk? Or is it something more personal?

  102. I think he’s a Gap ad.

  103. Nope, drill. We are all big fans of Barry O’s shiny hopey sparkly changeyness.

  104. Then I bet you loved Reagan’s “Yes We Can” campaign too, huh?
    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/02/obama_is_reagan.html

    Ok, time for Drill to get to bed.

  105. Weak.

  106. okay, so we’re two months into the year…. maggie’s sanity level: blue.

  107. do you like butter tarts?

  108. Since Reagan isn’t here to do it himself, I’ll thank you and Dionne, drill, for ascribing your own theme to his campaign through several degrees of separation. Yes, you can! But no one is going to care.

  109. I don’t know what those are, happyfeet.

  110. or drill, you could check out this post from a few days ago.

  111. oh. is from one of my happy songs.

    Tim:hey Matt..

    Matt:Yeah Tim?

    TIm: Hey you talked to Mark lately?

    Matt: Uh..haven’t really talked to him but..he looks pretty uh..down.

    Tim: He looks pretty uh..down?

    Matt: Yeah well maybe we should cheer him up then

    Tim: What do you uh..suppose we should do?

    Matt: Well does he like butter tarts?

  112. they made a video, but it doesn’t have the butter tarts part.

  113. ah. speaking of baking, I’m planning on attempting these for my birthday.

  114. The european-american male is the Jew of the liberal fascists. Any european-american male who is stupid enough to stay with the feminazi Democrat party deserves the fate of traitors. The Republicans are no better. McCain is a collborator with the lib-fascists. Voting in a two-party no-choice system is bullshit. Take action. We need a new American Nationalist party that restores the Constitution and equal rights for european-american males, a party that seeks to establish a European-American Homeland on the North American Continent that will also accept European refugees from the coming genocide by the Muslims in Europe. Boycott businesses that hire illegals.

  115. Happy Birthday!! I’m thinking cherry or strawberry though – the chocolate… I’m just one of those what doesn’t like anything between me and the chocolate.

    And, Rick, you’re scary. I mean I’m glad you’re on our side, but dude.

  116. it’s not for another couple weeks. and I generally don’t consider something dessert if it’s not chocolate. though, i did make some lemon cupcakes for RTO’s birthday, it’s just, then I don’t have an excuse not to share with the dog.

  117. oh. Sort of an ides of March sort of thing. That’s portentous. Definitely chocolate then.

  118. some reason that makes me realize sarahw has gone missing

  119. her place hasn’t been updated since middle of January. I are concerned.

  120. huh, she posted in the pub the 24th. dunno, maybe she needed a sanity break. I know I’ve been trying. we’ve watched a lot of movies lately. Guns of Navarone tonight.

  121. Oh. That’s just like a week then. Ok. Move along.

  122. Guns of Navarone I’m putting on my list.

  123. you do that. lemme know if you need RTO there to occasionally comment, “that’s a sixties byproduct” there are a few moments of whining about having to kill people.

  124. #115:

    You’re living in your own Private Idaho
    Living in your own Private Idaho
    Underground like a wild potato.

  125. Hey, white guys! Do the math. Higher Taxes = Less Jobs, Lower Taxes = More Jobs. NAFTA is holding the price of gas down (we get most of our gas from Canada and NAFTA forces them to sell it to us). How much of the health care costs are linked to trial lawyers becoming millionares sueing doctors? What percentage of U.S. prisoners are in the country illegally in the first place? How many people are brought into this country each year as slaves? (According to MS-NBC an estimated 11,000 women were bought into this country last year as sex slaves). Global warming idiots are forcing up the price of food by as much as 40%. Why are they using corn to make bio-fuels instead of sugar? Because there is a big tariff on sugar designed to keep the cost of sugar high.

    Take any liberal position, see how it affects a different issue and you have an instant counter-argument.

  126. David Ross. Bravo. I knew that stuff, but I was speaking to the popular consensus…and Hoover was, after all, a Republican, who ‘supposedly’ helped cause the Depression.. and I’ll agree: He didn’t! I’ll give Hoover a pass if you’ll pin the Depression on Deregulated Markets. And like Newt says, “FDR saved capitalism.” Hoover, like Chamberlain, are an example of history’s losers: misunderstood and probably correct in many respects. (Chamberlain was rumored to have been credited for winning Ww2 by Hitler himself in Hitler’s last days by supposedly tricking the Nazi’s so that Britain’s military prepardness could have gotten off in time to actually defeat the Nazi’s where against ‘History’s judgement’ the hero Churchhill gutted the defenses of England and was a horrible stragetic “genius”, i.e. Dunkirk for example…but then using a rumored Hitler quote as a basis doesn’t make it true. Over-vilification of either Hoover or Chamberlain perhaps hides a truth somewhere. Alas, the popular consensus is what rules. And the Conservative’s and Republican’s ‘vilification’ of FDR and the New Deal falls into a category of suspicious orthodoxies too IMHO.)

    Jeffrey, why is that Clinton raised taxes and we had the longest peacetime growth especially in jobs…far better than either President’s Bush’s? Investing in infrastructer was a good thing doncha think?

  127. the hero Churchhill gutted the defenses of England

    I know this is hopeless, but — evidence?

    And in what way was Dunkirk a strategic failure? Trained men were pulled out of a situation that would have otherwise seen them captured or killed. The loss of material was bad, but survivable.

  128. David Paul Kuhn? He’s one of those three named people, and we all know about these three named people. Lee Harvey Oswald, James Earl Ray, John Wayne Gacy, Sirhan Sirhan Sirhan, Hillary Rodham Clinton, Glenn Harlan Reynolds. Need I say more?

  129. In Brazil, it costs $300 per year per patient to treat HIV/AIDS. In America, since we cannot benefit from the generic forms of these drugs, it costs $10,000 to $12,000 per patient.

    Sharon, from whose ass did you pull those figures?

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  132. First, let me answer a question: What are my sources for the information regarding the letter Rumsfeld, Bush, Cheney, etc., wrote to our then president Clinton urging him to strike Iraq and take down Sadam. There are several sources for this information. Washington Post, Newsweek, and the program, “Frontline” have all mentioned the letter, which by the way, has never been denied.
    Next, the blog I wrote was never intended to be a movie review, if you read my blog you will clearly see that I wrote about the movie and its factual base to increase awareness of extrordinary renditions. (ie; water boarding)

    Also, I am aware that President Clinton authorized such torture to be used “only in extreme cases”. But as is with all laws, the constitution, and what is just plain right, our current administration ignores what they wish and interprets such procedures as they see fit.

    Now, I have an important question for the rest of you:

    Knowing the current state our country is in, why on earth would anyone vote for a presidential candidate who does not address the issues we all know are in need of serious attention? (economy, environment, health care, education, alternative energy, Iraq war, budget, housing crisis, etc., etc., etc.)

    I know it is difficult to see that your stock portfolio will suffer and you may not enjoy fat tax breaks. Its tough to lose money. In fact, its depressing! But wouldn’t the economy benefit from a new and very different direction?

    Also, someone commented on my blog regarding Exxon-Mobil. I have a probmen with their profits as they are a direct result of the consumer paying more than necessary at the pump. Gas, because we have no readily available alternatives as of yet, is necessary. So is medication, health care, a home mortgage and detergent. I do not discriminate and am equally as angry at drug/health care stocks, finance stocks, and Wal-Mart profits for making gross amounts of money from the basic needs of hard working Americans whose bank accounts are shrinking due to unreasonably high prices!

    Its time to level the playing field — a Democrat will take over in January and I cannot wait to enjoy the benefits most Americans deserve after such a greedy administration has left most penniless, homeless, uninsured, and very angry.

    Please, Republicans should not complain. After all, you voted for Bush. Don’t you think you should be at least partially responsibly for helping us to pay for the mess he is sure to leave behind?

  133. What is the government going to do about the rising gas prices?

    Many articles available online support facts that the oil companies do not need to raise gas prices as much as they do; yet the Bush Administration has done nothing to stop them from continuing to enjoy fat profits. Can’t the government stop them from “gouging prices”?

    One fact is that Exxon-Mobil is one of the world’s most profitable companies of 2007, earning almost 40 billion in 2007. This is the largest profit ever in U.S. History. The source of this information is Fortune 500s Top 20 Most Profitable for 2007 and the list is available online. Do they need such a huge profit? Its fine to make money, but how much and at what cost to others? Gas is necessary right now. Americans have no other alternatives but to fill up at the pump. I happen to live in a city in California that is nationally known for owning the most Hybrids. I am pretty proud of that, although I drive a Beetle. Hybrids weren’t available widely as of yet when I purchased my car. I do try to drive as little as possible. As of today, gas is $3.45 per gallon here in California.

    The next direct threat is the legislature yet to be passed for drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. In 1960 our then president Eisenhower protected this land. It is home to over 80 species of wildlife and would have disastrous impacts on them, the environment, and the Native Americans who live there. In 2005, a Washington Senator was rejected when she tried to protect a small portion of this land.

    This “reconciliation” legislature, as it has been named, also includes many other unrelated legislature having nothing to do with this protected land. Its all part of a budget resolution. It includes spending in Iraq, among other things. How on earth did a major wildlife refuge get lumped in with wiretapping and Iraq spending?

    You can write to the senate and ask them if they plan to protect the ANWF from oil drillers, who would benefit greatly if they found oil there. There is no guarantee the protected land would produce enough oil to bother going in, so why should they? Write to 433 Russell Senate Office Building, United States Senate, Washington, D.C. 20510. You can learn about this beautiful land and its inhabitants from their defenders website at savearcticrefuge.org.

    Again, I ask how the government intends to solve this problem. Non OPEC oil supply is expected to grow by 900,000 barrels per day in 2008, providing their legislature sees no delays. The earth is in deep trouble if more drilling in every possible pristine, protected place is the answer! The oil industry is not hurting for money. They could certainly take their profits from last year alone and invest in alternative energy. Washington, D.C. is in some way enjoying the oil profits and they really don’t seem to see that we are in financial trouble. The consumer is the victim.

    Thank you C-SPAN.

  134. How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don’t think. -Adolf Hitler

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