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GOP 2008: Has McCain already consolidated the GOP base? [Karl]

Last night on FNC’s coverage of the Potomac Primaries, Dark Lord Karl Rove suggested that — contrary to the conventional wisdom — Sen. John McCain was already doing better among Republicans than his rivals were doing among Democrats.

It turns out Rove said much the same thing Monday night on the O’Reilly Factor:

O’REILLY: Now let’s go over to the Republican Party. It looks to be in disarray. Looks to be in absolute disarray.

ROVE: No, I disagree. Look, you’ve got to take the difference between sort of what’s going on on the surface and what’s going on underneath the surface. You take a look at the last FOX poll when they did the head-to-head matchups between McCain and Obama, I’ve got them right here.

Eighty percent of the Republicans say they’re for McCain against Obama. Ten percent of Republicans say they’re for Obama versus McCain. Among Democrats, McCain takes 18 percent of the Democrats, almost twice the percentage that Obama takes among Republicans. And Obama is 74 percent of Democrats as opposed to the 80 percent of Republicans for McCain. So McCain is doing better consolidating his base than is the Democrats. Similar numbers for…

O’REILLY: All right, that’s interesting analysis.

ROVE: …matchup with Hillary Clinton.

Rove, being no dummy, left it there.  It turns out that his counter-intuitive point about core party support is true, but he left out Independents.  Including those numbers tells a more complex story.

Let’s start with McCain vs. Obama.  The topline is a virtual tie at 43%-44%.  McCain wins 80% of Republicans, 18% of Democrats and 37% of Independents.  Obama wins 74% of Democrats, 10% of Republicans, and 41% of Independents.  Obama wins Independents by 4% — though this is not necessarily fatal to McCain, because he wins considerably more Republicans and Democrats.

Next is McCain vs. Clinton.  The topline is again virtual tie, this time at 45%-44%.  McCain wins 86% of Republicans, 15% of Democrats and 42% of Independents.  Clinton wins 79% of Democrats, 7% of Republicans, and 38% of Independents.  This time it is McCain who wins Independents by 4% — but this turns out not to be fatal to Clinton because the more polarized race pushes some people back to their respective parties, and there are currently more Democrats than Republicans.  In this scenario, Clinton consolidates her base more than Obama, but doesn’t need to consolidate it as much as McCain does.

Of course, national head-to-head numbers are of limited use, as the general election is really 50 state elections.  Nevertheless, the FOX numbers raise some interesting hypotheses. 

First, the numbers suggest that the talk about the relative abilities of McCain and Obama to attract Independents may be less meaningful than people think (though one cannot say this with great certainty without knowing where they live).  Alternatively, if you buy the Obama line that he can bring all sorts of new voters into the process, such that traditional turnout models do not fully capture it (a debatable proposition), McCain’s appeal to “garden-variety” Independents may not be as big a selling point as is generally believed.

Second, it raises questions as to whether McCain should prefer to run against Obama instead of Clinton.  If Clinton is the nominee, the election may look more like all of the other elections in this century, which have generally been about identifying and turning out the candidate’s vote.  The larger pool of Democrats, combined with a polarizing campaign potentially depressing the Independent vote, might make Clinton the tougher foe for McCain.

Update:  Allahpundit links, and asks whether a negative campaign would depress the Independent vote.  My answer is there, so HotAir readers will see it.

103 Replies to “GOP 2008: Has McCain already consolidated the GOP base? [Karl]”

  1. nishizonoshinji says:

    gotta be quick Karl
    things are in flux

  2. happyfeet says:

    I hate flux. It’s like change but messier.

  3. nishizonoshinji says:

    this is the first time i seen…..i guess ill call it …..spoofing… in polls i think.
    where ppl lie to the pollster or vote for someone they dont really want to win….
    it is interesting as a cultural phenomenon

  4. cranky-d says:

    I would expect to see spoofing when identity politics comes into play, simply because people don’t like to be labeled as racist or sexist simply because they don’t care to vote for someone who happens to have a different gender or skin color just because they are “supposed to,” as opposed to voting for the candidate they think (or increasingly, feel) will do the best job regardless of such factors.

    This is the first time we’ve had this opportunity to really examine what people will really do on a national level, as opposed to when Jesse Jackson was able to win a few states but really couldn’t mount a national campaign.

    On the R side, I don’t think we’ve had this much dissatisfaction from the base for the presumptive nominee for a long time. I’m not as sure of the reasoning behind any spoofing there.

  5. nishizonoshinji says:

    i think huckabee/romney incorporated spoofing.
    xian ppl didnt want to look bigotted by sayin they wud never vote for a mormon….but they never wud.
    actually.

  6. JohnnyT says:

    I am only one number in a poll, but I am a conservative who will be voting Democrat this election (as if there will be a difference?). Better a Democrat president than a left-leaning GOP that eats its own. Let them destroy themselves. Let McCain go down in flames. Four years of Obama or Hillary will do wonders for reinvigorating the conservative movement, like Jimmy Carter’s did.

    And I know I’m not the only one who feels this way. Can you hear me now, Karl?

  7. cranky-d says:

    xian ppl didnt want to look bigotted by sayin they wud never vote for a mormon….but they never wud.

    I had totally forgotten about him. I agree that there are many Christians who wouldn’t have voted for him no matter what they said in public.

  8. Philadelphia Steve says:

    John McCain does not have to “solidify” anything. Republicans are 100% loyal, 100% of the time. While it is true that the Conservative pundits declare “we are unhappy with the Republican nominee”, they never mean it after Labor Day of any election year.

    George Will is the poster child for this sort of behavior, this year he just has more company. All of the complaints will melt away in the August heat and, without exception, every single “we will stay home” Republican commentator will be out in full force backing McCain come September.

    Watch and see.

  9. Karl says:

    nishi,

    This is incidentally another area where you lack expertise. To pick a single national poll on one day as representative of what is ultimately 50 state elections is laughable, even on your own terms. Between now and November, things will continue to be in flux.

    Also, if this is the first time you’ve seen spoofing of polls (theorized), you might want to Google “Bradley effect” or “Wilder effect.” Indeed, these were dicussed here and many other places after the NH primary, which may say somthing about the level of attention you are paying.

  10. nishizonoshinji says:

    pardon, i havent done wet data since college.
    i do DSP mostly.
    thnx for the linkage.

  11. WR says:

    This is the same Karl Rove who so bravely and accurately predicted the huge Republican victory in the 2006 congressional races? I’m sure Obama is quaking.

  12. kelly says:

    Republicans are 100% loyal, 100% of the time. While it is true that the Conservative pundits declare “we are unhappy with the Republican nominee

    “Conservatives” and “Republicans” are not necessarily the same thing for start, here, PS. Secondly, while it’s nice to be described with a character trait one would normally assign to one’s pet, don’t you think asserting that any political party would vote “100% loyal, 100% of the time,” makes you come off sounding pretty stupid?

  13. Karl says:

    nishi,

    My last reply was a bit brusque by necessity, so let me add some nuance.

    When looking at the topline of a poll (as your Rasmussen link does), pollsters prefer to look at an average or trend plot. Try RealClearPolitics for the former, Pollster.com for the latter. Mostly because different polls vary in methodology, sample screening, automated vs. personal interview, turnout models, etc.

    Second, Rasmussen isn’t the only poll that puts Obama ahead at the moment, but my analysis here is only concerned with the topline to make sure it is not drastically off the average. The new Gallup has Obama +4 over McCain, but the internals are similar to the FOX poll in terms of where Ds, Rs and Is line up, depending on whether the D nominee is Obama or HRC. And it is those internals that are the subject here. The exact numbers matter little (the MoE will be even larger for them). It’s the more general picture those internals show that is interesting.

    Also, note that my initial post is filled with qualifiers, as befits extrapolations from wet data. As you note, there is going to be flux.

  14. Karl says:

    Johnny T,

    You should check my other posts here, where I take grief for representing your viewpoint.

  15. Karl says:

    This is the same Karl Rove who so bravely and accurately predicted the huge Republican victory in the 2006 congressional races?

    Acting as a paid analyst as opposed to a paid member of the Administration, yes. Referring to a publicly published poll (whose basic numbers are confirmed by Gallup) as opposed to some super-secret data, yes.

  16. memomachine says:

    Hmmmm.

    No way am I voting for McCain.

  17. Cave Bear says:

    Hmmmmm.

    No way I’m not voting for McCain, given the alternate of either BO or the PIAPS.

  18. ibfamous says:

    yo kelly, P Steve was being generous in his portrayal… lockstep would be another word which comes to mind, but i won’t want to look stupid now would i?

  19. kelly says:

    Feel free to look any way you want, ibf.

    But judging by the comments on this blog alone, it appears a lot of R’s (or conservatives) won’t be voting for JohnnyMac which tends to undermine his/your point, no?

    Note Bene: I’ll be charitable and not dwell too much on your use of the word lockstep. But if you think you’re being clever by implication of a certain connotation of it, you’re not.

  20. McGehee says:

    Watch and see.

    Hold your breath.

    Are you holding?

    You’re not holding, are you?

    Didn’t think so.

  21. nishizonoshinji says:

    lulz my graduate sadistics professor wud cite the “farmer” method.
    eyeball it.
    we dont need a poll to predict that Obama will give mccain more truble than bilary
    bilary IS mccain ……in drag.

  22. Obstreperous Infidel says:

    “xian ppl didnt want to look bigotted by sayin they wud never vote for a mormon….but they never wud.”

    I’m a Christian and I would have voted for him. But I’m not a xian so maybe that’s why.

    As for people voting or not voting for Obama or Hilary, I work with a large number of democrats (very, very large) and many of them are union members, and they aren’t voting for either Obama or Hilary. You guessed it. A bunch of racists and sexists. Those are the reasons that were given. So McCain will get a great deal of the racist/sexist democrat vote, for whatever that’s worth.

  23. nishizonoshinji says:

    ObI
    outlier ;)

    why do ppl object to xian?
    x was greek for the christos
    its just shorthand for me
    like u for you

  24. nishizonoshinji says:

    see?
    perhaps ppl should not have voted against romney for mormonism….but they did.

  25. nishizonoshinji says:

    who knew conservatives cud be so PC?
    isnt that a democrat sin?

  26. nishizonoshinji says:

    anyways, i hav nothing against mormons
    yours is better for u, mine is better for me.
    but mormonism rendered romney unelectable.
    wat good is it to pretend that wasnt so?
    talkradio and the pundit class cudnt scold or bully the republican electorate into voting for him.
    doomed from the start.

  27. happyfeet says:

    It’s really pretty much a sort f firts they came for the Mormons thing. I don’t know why Southern Baptists would sit by feeling all smug that their bullshit won’t be held up to the light in turn.

  28. happyfeet says:

    Jeez.

    It’s really pretty much a sort a first they came for the Mormons thing. I don’t know why Southern Baptists would sit by feeling all smug that their bullshit won’t be held up to the light in turn.

    OK timeout for coffees.

  29. McGehee says:

    I do find it charming the way Nishi carries on entire conversations all by herself.

    Maybe the funny spelling confuses her too, and she doesn’t realize the comment she’s answering is her own.

  30. nishizonoshinji says:

    feets, like i said, mormonism is far weirder than mainsteam protestantism
    its much younger hehe, bad pun.
    that is why the southern baptists wudnt vote for mitt.
    it is…kinda like if a scientologist ran for the democratic candidacy.
    mormonism pegs way out there in the weirdness distribution, an it wud have become extremely exploitable for the MSM under guise of “education about mormonism”.

    but the bad plannin sorta mazes me…i think..in the pre-season sentiment polls, evangelicals an mainsteam protestants said they wud vote him, sos not to look bigotted.
    but the pundit class shudnt have been blindsided by this.
    its just human nature

  31. happyfeet says:

    It’s not that you’re not right, it’s just that it’s so wrong.

  32. nishizonoshinji says:

    dont get pissy wid me McG
    i was right about this too, an u all just didnt want to believe it.

  33. nishizonoshinji says:

    i hav another prediction…the repubs cant hope to take the WH unless they resolder the devils bargain that Rove made with the evangelicals.
    welcome Mike Huckabee, veep.

  34. happyfeet says:

    nope. No way. Hick’s a bigot. Religious tolerance is still pretty well understood to be foundational, even if it’s not particularly honored. No sense in McCain embracing the alienation of Mormons from public life. He probably thinks he can be competitive in California. He could be right. Don’t know really.

  35. McGehee says:

    i was right about this too, an u all just didnt want to believe it.

    I don’t remember giving a crap whether other people had a problem with Romney’s faith.

    the repubs cant hope to take the WH unless they resolder the devils bargain that Rove made with the evangelicals.

    Because of course evangelicals never voted Republican before Rove came along and recruited them.

    The Republicans won’t take the White House this year anyway.

  36. nishizonoshinji says:

    I don’t remember giving a crap whether other people had a problem with Romney’s faith.
    well..praps u shud have since it made him unelectable.

    Because of course evangelicals never voted Republican before Rove came along and recruited them.
    McG, some did, sure
    but Rove built a get-out-the-vote party machine for evangelicals by convolving conservatism with “Life” and antigaymarriage planks in GW’s platform.

  37. nishizonoshinji says:

    well..feets…where will the popular vote come from?
    where will the redstate electoral college majorities come from if the evangelicals stay home?
    i think pragmatism will impell the choice of veep.

  38. nishizonoshinji says:

    i just think, for Science..it is much better that the dems take the WH.
    the last 8 years have been awful.
    GW: blah, blah, blah…math and science….blah blah.
    never a mention of biology
    its like biology and biotech hasnt existed in america for the past 8 years
    dopes
    nanotech IS biotech

  39. happyfeet says:

    If the evangelicals stay home… I think that’s a chimera. I really do. Had the 2006 fiasco never happened maybe, but the Supreme Court’s balance is in play. The evangelicals stay home meme is predicated on a perception of evangelicals being butt-stupid I think.

  40. Slartibartfast says:

    but Rove built a get-out-the-vote party machine for evangelicals by convolving conservatism with “Life” and antigaymarriage planks

    Horsepuckey. These issues have been used to gather in the evangelical vote since the Reagan years. Rove may do as you’ve described, but he didn’t exactly build it.

  41. happyfeet says:

    Actually antigaymarriage plank thingers were predictably prompted by a court in Massachusetts. That was no way no how an issue Bush went looking for.

  42. B Moe says:

    i just think, for Science..it is much better that the dems take the WH.
    the last 8 years have been awful.

    I understand your dissatisfaction with the Republicans on this, nishi, but I think you should give the Democrats a second look before you decide your vote purely on this issue. Their policies on Global Warming, and genetic engineering of crops and livestock are about as unscientific as you can get. Their is a strong strain of paganistic luddism guiding Democrat policy.

    Is pseudo-religion posing as science an improvement over religion resisting science?

  43. Slartibartfast says:

    See also Moral Majority, nishi. It predated Rove’s national political involvement by two decades.

  44. nishizonoshinji says:

    actually a chimera is a genetic mosaic…either of 2 separate human dnas or of a human dna/animal dna composite.
    which we might actually be familiar with if we supported biotechnolgy here in the “Lifestates of Amerika”

  45. happyfeet says:

    For real nishi B Moe has a strong argument I think. And personally I think science has vindicated Bush’s stem cell caution. Science is not really paramount to having people’s taxes go to an end that’s people are morally opposed to. I mean it is, but nobody’s interests are ultimately served by that I don’t think. I was always happy knowing that no doors were closed to privately funded research.

  46. B Moe says:

    And once again we get back to the crux of the issue for nishi: the tendency to conflate “ethics” with “Christianity”, lol.

  47. happyfeet says:

    Oh. A fanciful mental illusion or fabrication is what I was going for, but you’re right I don’t think that denotation is ascendant these days.

  48. nishizonoshinji says:

    no slart, i meant the get-out-the-vote effort where staffers drove ppl to the polls an stuff, and rove seeded flyover country with campaign offices.
    wat u say is true
    …but the Moral Majority has evolved into the Moral Stupidity
    GWs veto on ESCR was absolute pandering.

  49. B Moe says:

    Science is not really paramount to having people’s taxes go to an end that’s people are morally opposed to.

    Exactly. If AlGore wants nishi to build him a Manbearpig, let him pay for it with all that mad carbon offset money, I don’t want my tax dollars involved.

  50. Slartibartfast says:

    I have to say that I don’t care too much for Christians who are actively campaigning to have “Creation Science” taught in public schools on an equal-time and -status basis with current cosmological/evolutionary theory. It isn’t science; quit calling it that. It is theologically orthodox (to some), but it isn’t scientifically…anything at all.

    I say this even though my adopted religion maintains that the Bible is the Word of God. There’s a fundamental disconnect for me, there, but I have at least temporarily resolved this for myself that matters of faith sometimes cannot be explained with what we think we know and/or understand.

    Probably most people would disagree with that. I can live with disagreement.

  51. happyfeet says:

    Oh. I want my ‘s back. I should call in sick today at this rate if I were smart.

  52. Slartibartfast says:

    i meant the get-out-the-vote effort where staffers drove ppl to the polls an stuff

    What do you think the Moral Majority was all about, nishi? It was about swapping some party power for the evangelical vote.

    Overtly. No, not out loud, but anyone paying attention couldn’t help but draw that conclusion. Or do you think Reagan and Bush 41 were Bible-pounders, deep down inside?

  53. nishizonoshinji says:

    no feets
    i cud accept bush sayin that it was morally wrong for him
    but he didnt say that
    he lied
    he said, ASCR is the same as ESCR
    bs…ASCR will never deliver the disease modellin capability that ESCR can
    bush an rove both told the news media and the american public that govt fundage of the existing stem cell lines
    was adequate, with out mention that the lines are devolving an were useless for human research until 2005 because of contamination with mouse feeder cells.
    the population and congress were in favor of the ESCR expansion bill
    but didnt have the votes to overcome the veto.

  54. happyfeet says:

    It’s just I don’t think you really see how doctrinaire you sound. It’s ultimately not the biggest dealio. People will still get sick and die. I have it penciled in at some point no matter how this gets resolved.

  55. happyfeet says:

    It’s just so cheesey when science dangles painlessness and happy happy enduring health to all. We will maketh him walketh again. But why for really you wanna do that I wonder.

  56. nishizonoshinji says:

    oh..we had to regrow the 11 blessed lines after Johns Hopkins solved the mousefeeder cell problem, and that is when we discovered the devolution.
    now countries all over the world use the results of their research.

    feets, the govt must support basic research
    do u know wat May is? when the LHSC in Cern is open for business
    where we may find Higgs Bosons

    we should have one here, but this country doesnt support Science.
    bush just pays lipservice to it.

    lolz religion + biology==ethics
    its all sharia if u think about it
    all sharia is is codification of social mores, taboos, and religious laws.
    evolutionary theory of culture dictates which are adopted by particular societies.
    this Life!mania has to stop
    a blastula is NOT a “human life”.

  57. B Moe says:

    i cud accept bush sayin that it was morally wrong for him
    but he didnt say that
    he lied
    he said, ASCR is the same as ESCR
    bs…ASCR will never deliver the disease modellin capability that ESCR can
    bush an rove both told the news media and the american public that govt fundage of the existing stem cell lines
    was adequate, with out mention that the lines are devolving an were useless for human research until 2005 because of contamination with mouse feeder cells.

    Is it not possible he misunderstood? Because frankly I have no fucking idea what you are trying to say. You argument might be more persuasive if you made even the slightest effort to be comprehensible.

    the population and congress were in favor of the ESCR expansion bill

    I doubt seriously “the population” had a clue about the issues. I am informed well above average and I don’t know what you are talking about.

  58. happyfeet says:

    Oh. Nonono. Yes the Government must support basic research. But they also must carefully safeguard people’s perception of science too is what I mean. The enchilada is more important than the toppings. Yes. That is wisdom.

  59. nishizonoshinji says:

    But why for really you wanna do that I wonder.
    because we can
    we dont have to get old an die so fast.
    look…the selfish genes code for 3 things….
    survial, reprodution, and death
    no death, no evolution…..see?
    that is why there are no immortal species
    death rocks and evolution rolls

    but we can take control of our genome with genetic engineering
    we dont have to be coded to die

    we need to separate religion from government

  60. happyfeet says:

    Well yeah and that’s neat. I totally agree. I embrace my post-humanity. I just hope they take Amex though so I can get points.

  61. nishizonoshinji says:

    and really….i know it wont happen
    ppl are hardwired for religion

    GW already said the mccain was proLife!
    i want some someone that is proScience!
    and anti-death.
    ;)

  62. happyfeet says:

    I just think science is better when it smacks more of a maternal nurturey aesthetic than a martinet one. We need everyone on board as much as possible cause for sure the religion of science can be amputated from government just as easily as you can lop off the Mormons.

  63. B Moe says:

    But they also must carefully safeguard people’s perception of science too is what I mean.

    And to be brutally honest, nishi, people like you coming onto websites and writing like a semi-literate retard while being condescending and insulting to people of faith really isn’t helping your cause.

    lolz religion + biology==ethics

    No. Ethics are shaped by religion, but can exist outside religion.

  64. nishizonoshinji says:

    well..if the evangelical block gets their way we’ll be buying blackmarket technolgy from the chinese.
    those who can afford it.
    the rest of us will be shortlifes.
    the LifeStates of Amerika will become the antique genome reservation.
    ESCR an abortion an gaymarriage will all be illegal hehe.

  65. happyfeet says:

    We’re all a lot on the same side I think. Just different marketing plans. This almost killed Apple, time was, and we’d all be iPodless now.

  66. nishizonoshinji says:

    No. Ethics are shaped by religion, but can exist outside religion.

    sure

    biology shapes both ethics and religion is wat i mean
    like incest taboos are biological, while not-stealing is religious.

  67. B Moe says:

    Biologically rape would be a good thing, the strong should spread his seed as much as possible. Do you think it is acceptably ethically?

  68. happyfeet says:

    Making ESCR a preeminent symbol diminishes science a lot I think. Getting your private moneys, doing the science, and vindicating yourselves would be really a coup for your team. A big one. It was a huge opportunity you guyses were handed.

  69. nishizonoshinji says:

    We’re all a lot on the same side I think.
    i dont think so feets….i want religion out of government
    any religion, all religion
    totally

  70. happyfeet says:

    Diminishes I mean cause it makes you look totally attached to the government tit and sort of whiny. But also because science is so much bigger than a single technique. Science is a river that can flow around obstacles like that, at least in my head and that may just be wrong I guess. But I’m romantic like that.

  71. happyfeet says:

    nishi, science has a value structure. Cause it’s a human endeavor. Pretending it doesn’t is shallow cause what the hell are these peoples going to live forever for? I’m just saying that you can’t pretend science is not always contextualized by whoever wants to bring a critique to bear, so you should be mindful of that is all more instead of staking out some kind of purity. That’s sloppy but I haz to go to work.

  72. nishizonoshinji says:

    thou shalt not cover thy neighbors wife
    religious
    but it only applies within ur memetic tribe

  73. nishizonoshinji says:

    feets ur wrong
    this is capitalism
    venture capital is gonna work on anti-fat pills an viagra
    i just want religion separated from government
    like the freemasons wanted.

    i gtg
    ttyl

  74. B Moe says:

    i want religion out of government
    any religion, all religion
    totally

    That isn’t going to happen. Not in any practical timeframe, anyway, unless your boy de Gray comes through quick. I would recommend you practice what you preach with bricolage: work on using the existing structure to your advantage, communicate and teach rather than ridicule and dismiss. Beat them at their own game.

  75. daleyrocks says:

    feets, the govt must support basic research

    We need money!!!! Follow the money. We need research grants for the great global warming scam. We need money for ESCR, which hasn’t produced a damn thing but has such great fucking potential private industry won’t touch it, so we need you suckahs, I’m looking at you government.

    And when we develop something good – we want you to turn over all the rights to it to US – because we wouldn’t want the GOVERNMENT actually CONTROLLING SCIENCE.

    What a load of crap.

  76. B Moe says:

    feets ur wrong
    this is capitalism
    venture capital is gonna work on anti-fat pills an viagra

    Yeah, feets, what kind of financial return you think you could get on immortality, for God’s sake?

  77. Slartibartfast says:

    he lied
    he said, ASCR is the same as ESCR

    Bush lied; mouse platelets died.

    Ennyway, here’s an alternative: Bush just isn’t up on the science, and therefore instead of being a liar, he’s mistaken. Borrowing a line from our friend Al Maviva, casting a mistake into a lie makes you just like Glenn Greenwald.

    I don’t think that, but I couldn’t resist the opportunity to poke two people in one sentence.

  78. Slartibartfast says:

    Three, actually.

  79. Education Guy says:

    like incest taboos are biological, while not-stealing is religious.

    Nope, sorry. The incest taboos also may come from religion.

  80. daleyrocks says:

    feets ur wrong
    this is capitalism

    We conservatives absolutely want our government intimately involved in capitalism, nimrod!

  81. daleyrocks says:

    like incest taboos are biological, while not-stealing is religious.

    No. Not stealing is pretty much common sense because you get your ass whupped if you get caught or punished by the law if they get involved.

  82. Slartibartfast says:

    I wouldn’t ever say happyfeets is ur-wrong; that’s a little bit of extremism that I’d reserve for guys like datadave.

  83. B Moe's ex-wife says:

    I would think one could make a case for a biological taboo against homosexuality. Ironically enough, a few prominent religious leaders consider AIDS to be just that.

  84. daleyrocks says:

    “I would think one could make a case for a biological taboo against homosexuality. Ironically enough, a few prominent religious leaders consider AIDS to be just that.”

    It’s tough to perpetuate the tribe when you don’t reproduce.

  85. happyfeet says:

    Hmm. That’s a kind of good point about the capitalism, but everything evolves, nishi. The cost structures associated with basic science for one. Did you know that your laptop can like cure cancer and stuff where like 100 years ago it would have filled up a whole shopping mall and they would have needed like 16,000 people just changing burned out … thingers all the time? Google it. Also, maybe scientists can evolve to where they’re more capable of guerrilla thot. It just seems that they a lot worship at the temple they want to pull down. If they don’t want government involved, then they can probably figure out a way to get around that. They’re awfully clever.

  86. cranky-d says:

    thingers = vacuum tubes.

  87. cranky-d says:

    BTW, the mean time to failure for one of those original computers was on the order of minutes.

  88. happyfeet says:

    Thanks, cranky. Vacuum tubes. NOT the future.

  89. Rusty says:

    #74

    Far as I know congress has passed no law establishing a religion. Not for lack of AlGore trying though. You’re free to worship however you see fit.

    Don’t know what you got against capitalism.

  90. nishizonoshinji says:

    oh rusty
    GW exercised his veto…wat?
    2x in 8yrs?
    and the issue?
    Life
    no one except the religious believes that a blastula is “human life”.
    like…..the egg gets soulified when the fertilization membrane lifts off at impact?

    right there, that is religious belief interfering with the function of government.
    plus, like thers not a whole lot of other legislation that shud have been vetoed.

    i feel a whole like jeff at this point
    i think i will go work very hard on my breakin and krumpin, an perhaps ill get scouted for monsters of hiphop or so u think u can dance.
    cya

  91. B Moe says:

    right there, that is religious belief interfering with the function of government.

    Only if you consider public funding of private medical research a legitimate function of government. I don’t, and it has nothing to do with religion.

  92. Rusty says:

    #91
    We covered this very subject several months ago. You weren’t here.

    “right there, that is religious belief interfering with the function of government.”

    No. That’s a moral stand. One of the self evident truths. Again. You’re free to belief what you wish

  93. alppuccino says:

    i think i will go work very hard on my breakin and krumpin

    Don’t work too hard, or keep some Preparation H handy.

  94. nishizonoshinji says:

    “No. That’s a moral stand.”

    nope. it is a religious stand.
    i am a moral person and i do not believe that blastulae are “human lives”
    Bush said….
    1. ASCR is just as good as ESCR (lie)
    2. it is more “moral” to take cells from dead bodies than from the 400000 snowflake embryos, which btw, are dead anyways, since they have a 0.00001 chance of being implanted anyways given the ratio of available adopters. also, they are blastulae and not “human life” anyways.
    3. and anyways, the govt funds research on the 11 existing cell lines, which btw, are useless since they are devolving after we had to regrow them.
    GW is perfectly cognizant of all this.
    he is panderering to an electorate that is not smart enough to understand this, and too lazy to do the research.
    and he is convolving his religious values with his position.
    and those are LIES btw which i reguarded as immoral when clinton did it and i find immoral in this case as well.

  95. Education Guy says:

    The whole question of whether a blastula is a human life is a dodge in any case nishi. If it isn’t, which is not settled science, then it most likely will become one if left to its own devices.

  96. daleyrocks says:

    1. ASCR is just as good as ESCR (lie)

    What developments have come from ESCR relative to ASCR to date? Seems like everyone is doing quite well with ASCR, thank you very much.

  97. Rusty says:

    i am a moral person and i do not believe that blastulae are “human lives”

    Really? You do not believe blastulae are human lives? But since it is a belief you hold, you can’t prove they aren’t. You take it on faith that they aren’t. Human lives that is. But you agree they are alive? They have all the DNA they need from both parties? Barring any outside intervention the will develop into………………..? What? A giraffe?

  98. happyfeet says:

    Well yeah but people’s blastulae are sort of their own blastulae to do whatever they want with. Just the government doesn’t need to get involved with redistributing them to where they think can be best put to use. That’s just not necessary I don’t think, and some people are really offended by it I’ve noticed.

  99. Rusty says:

    You’ll bet my blastulae when you pry my cold dead hand from around it……….them…………..her …………..

  100. Mike says:

    C’mon wingnuts…quit whining and drink the Kool-aid. You need this party to keep you in fear, restrict your liberty and privacy, and loot the treasury for corporate America. Who else is gonna do it?

    Kill, spend, oppress,…just keep repeating…you’ll feel better.

  101. Dan Collins says:

    Yeah, we’re just haters, Mike.

  102. […] March 7 and 22 to assess the cross-party appeal of each candidate, with results similar to that of prior polling showing that McCain gets more support from Democrats than Obama gets from […]

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