Glenn Reynolds, in the NY Daily News:
In The Roanoke Times last year—after another campus incident, when a dangerous escaped inmate was roaming the campus—[Virginia Tech graduate student Bradford] Wiles wrote that, when his class was evacuated, “Of all of the emotions and thoughts that were running through my head that morning, the most overwhelming one was of helplessness. That feeling of helplessness has been difficult to reconcile because I knew I would have been safer with a proper means to defend myself.”
Wiles reported that when he told a professor how he felt, the professor responded that she would have felt safer if he had had a gun, too.
What’s more, she would have been safer. That’s how I feel about my student (one of a few I know who have gun carry permits), as well. She’s a responsible adult; I trust her not to use her gun improperly, and if something bad happened, I’d want her to be armed because I trust her to respond appropriately, making the rest of us safer.
Virginia Tech doesn’t have that kind of trust in its students (or its faculty, for that matter). Neither does the University of Tennessee. Both think that by making their campuses “gun-free,” they’ll make people safer, when in fact they’re only disarming the people who follow rules, law-abiding people who are no danger at all.
This merely ensures that the murderers have a free hand. If there were more responsible, armed people on campuses, mass murder would be harder.
In fact, some mass shootings have been stopped by armed citizens. Though press accounts downplayed it, the 2002 shooting at Appalachian Law School was stopped when a student retrieved a gun from his car and confronted the shooter. Likewise, Pearl, Miss., school shooter Luke Woodham was stopped when the school’s vice principal took a .45 from his truck and ran to the scene. In February’s Utah mall shooting, it was an off-duty police officer who happened to be on the scene and carrying a gun.
Police can’t be everywhere, and as incidents from Columbine to Virginia Tech demonstrate, by the time they show up at a mass shooting, it’s usually too late. On the other hand, one group of people is, by definition, always on the scene: the victims. Only if they’re armed, they may wind up not being victims at all.
“Gun-free zones” are premised on a fantasy: That murderers will follow rules, and that people like my student, or Bradford Wiles, are a greater danger to those around them than crazed killers like Cho Seung-hui. That’s an insult. Sometimes, it’s a deadly one.
[my emphasis]
I wrote yesterday of the desire of the nannystate to infantilize us—and nowhere is this threat more immediate than with overzealous gun control laws, many of which pressure the Second Amendment (here, schools declaring themselves “gun free zones” prevent those licensed to carry a firearm from potentially protecting themselves under threat of expulsion; in other instances, those who protect themselves or others in school settings have opened themselves up to criminal prosecution under Zero Tolerance gun laws).
It is simply unconscionable—and should be equally unconstitutional, I’d argue—to deny law-abiding adult citizens the right to protect themselves from being lined up and shot by those who, by the nature of their acts, perform their disdain for the kinds of laws they willfully violate. Meanwhile, it is those who are given to following laws who are most likely to be adversely affected by the implementation and enforcement of those laws.
Cho Seung-hui, it is safe to say, was not deterred by the threat of expulsion. Nor was he impressed by Virginia Tech’s having patted itself on the back for declaring itself a gun-free campus.
As Reynolds notes in his op-ed, this feel-good movement to “protect” us from ourselves is an insult to responsible adults and marks the further presumption of bureaucratic statists to “check” our Constitutional freedoms—particularly as studies show that most instances of self-defense using a gun don’t even require discharge of the weapon.
And really—how many of you want to entrust your lives to the election-year whims of politicians pandering to a population raised on anti-gun propaganda…?
****
update: Jules Crittenden has a roundup of reaction here.
update 2: Additional thoughts from Reason’s Jacob Sullum.
Oops…</b>
All of this makes me ask myself…
Glock 19 or 23?
Or should I go subcompact?
Noah, forget the guns. All you need is an Ismail Ax, apparently.
Sub-compact is nice for CC, Noah.
I like this, myself…
6 rounds of .380 hardball will make most goblins think twice.
At one time the concept of self defense encompassed not only the right, but the obligation to defend oneself and to prevent harm to others. Now too many appear to feel that only the government has that right and obligation. Already in Britain a homeowner stands a very good chance of being sued or even prosecuted if he should harm an intruder in his own home. Sheepdogs are becoming an endangered species, legislated and moralized out of existence.
Eventalluy, things will get so bad in places like Britain that the populace with come running to the government “Here are our remaining rights, Take them and save us!”
It’s terrifying.
To pick up on an earlier comment thread, in regards to “a gun being dangerous”, I am reminded of an old friend who described going out unarmed as being as unfamiliar and odd as going out without a watch, wallet, or pants.
For a while, he was carrying around a .22 caliber pistol, and I asked him why he carried around something that light/small, as it wouldn’t do a whole in putting a person down.
He replied with something to the effect “Do you know anyone who wants to be shot in the face?”
He also had a profound disdain for what he referred to as “High-Tech Killamajigs”.
I think at that point is when I came to understand the difference between a dangerous shooter versus a dangerous gun.
BRD
for small CC weapons I highly recommend these, actually I reccomend them for any personal protection pea shooter.
You can just let people have guns! It’ll turn into the Wild West where every massacre will just turn into a shootout! As soon as the victims fight back, they will ‘loose’ the moral high ground!
The ‘High-Tech Killamajigs’ fellow you described above reminds me of my Dad. My ol’ man always said: “The best gun in the word is the one you’ve got with you.”
He carried a gun everywhere whether it was legal or not and never had to use it or even pull it.
I’ve had to pull a gun out twice–in similar circumstances–sitting at stop lights when some guy runs up and tries to reach in the window and open my door.
I had guns (illegally) in my car at university and one in my dorm room in a drawer in a locked case.
Always carry a gun. Always. Otherwise you are just another victim wandering around looking for a crime to happen to you….
We’ve been incredibly lucky as Americans that we haven’t had to have the mindset of Spartans, to use a current movie metaphor. It’s possible that that time is coming to and end, and we will have to take more responsibility for our own security and safety, and it’s not the government’s job to stand in the way when that happens.
It’s why the 2nd amendment was necessary: goverment arrogates power and freedom from the citizenry when not explicitly forbidden to do so.
You can’t let people have guns! The cops will protect you!
AP Today: BLACKSBURG, Va. (AP) – Virginia Tech students still on edge after the deadliest shooting in modern U.S. history got another scare Wednesday morning as police in SWAT gear with weapons drawn swarmed Burruss Hall, which houses the president’s office.
The threat of suspicious activity turned out to be unfounded, said Virginia State Police spokeswoman Corinne Geller said, and the building was reopened. But students were rattled.
“They were just screaming, ‘Get off the sidewalks,’” said Terryn Wingler-Petty, a junior from Wisconsin. “They seemed very confused about what was going on. They were just trying to get people organized.”
One officer was seen escorting a crying young woman out of Burruss Hall, telling her, “It’s OK. It’s OK.”
Fucking morons in Tactical Pants and Ninja Gear….
Declaring a university a gun-free zone would work beautifully as long as they also did the following:
• Built a Berlin Wall around the campus perimeter, complete with barbed wire, lookout posts with searchlights, and regular patrols with attack dogs
• Limited points of ingress and egress to just a few places and inspected every single car and individual with metal detectors, handbag searches, and gunpowder-sniffing dogs
Otherwise, all you’re doing is saying: “Hey! Over here! We’re unarmed!”
They might as well institute a no-locks policy to prevent theft.
Or, as someone once said of Weimar Germany, “They gratefully accepted the manacles, to stop their hands from trembling.”
Fucking morons in Tactical Pants and Ninja Gear….
Thanks for your valuable contribution to this discussion, Gray. I can assure you that all us current and former tac-team guys appreciate your understanding and insight.
Otherwise, all you’re doing is saying: “Hey! Over here! We’re unarmed!â€Â
Indeed, might as well term these locations Victim Disarmament Zones.
Despite the existence of anyone’s noble allegiance to the Crime Lobby, I think the experiment is over, or at least has to be terminated due to “ethical” concerns.
I’m sorry, NewGuy, but the Lefties do have one small point that can’t be addressed by a decent hairdresser: there are ‘way too many cops who are perfectly willing to behave badly at the drop of a hat.
I would have thought it a work-rules thing your Unions would address. If some dimwit on a City Council gets a blatantly intrusive or unConstitutional act passed, you guys ought to be screaming at the top of your lungs. Instead the rule seems to be “jus’ followin’ orders, ma’am.” The result is the growing impression that police are just bureaucrats who (1) carry guns and (2) eat more doughnuts than average.
Regards,
Ric
What Ric said. When I was a cop (in the 70’s) the motto was “to protect and serve”. These days it seems to be “to intimidate and collect revenue”. This shift in approach has evolved hand in glove with the unfortunate tendency of police departments to view “tactical” units as the desired response to anything more severe than a parking ticket. Terrifying civilians with military-style special ops gear doesn’t create a supportive community environment for police, but rather it’s opposite – something The NewGuy might want to consider before he blows off a nervous citizen’s reaction to “Tactical Pants and Ninja Gear” while reinforcing the us-against-them cop stereotype.
Good one, I’ll remember that. In my not so humble opinion a good double-action revolver is still the best self-defense weapon. No manual safeties to mess with, no question whether there’s a round chambered. Nothing could be simpler in a high-stress situation than “aim, pull trigger”. A word of caution on the Glaser Safety Slugs: They are absolutely the best stopper, but their light projectile can fail to operate the action of a self-loader. They work great in revolvers though.
Sorry NewGuy, but I used to train tactical teams. The 40 hours training we gave them wasn’t nearly enough to make them proficient, but only enough to point them in the right direction. Some, who were committed to continuing their education, and who served in departments where that education was provided under experienced leadership, became highly proficient. Some went back to departments where they received no additional training and had no experienced leadership, and some small few were frankly untrainable. The later are what we refer to as Fucking morons in Tactical Pants and Ninja Gear. If you’ve had much experience with SWAT teams, surely you’ve met a few folks in these later groups.
I’m just not in awe of the ninja cop door-kickers in local police/sheriff depts (or ATF for that matter). Having a “tac-team” is more a municiple status symbol now than anything useful.
It’s become an altoghether common and risible sight to see ninja cops in black kevlar helmets huddling behind their cars and shields while students and teachers are killed.
I suspect that the guys who could scream effectively, but usually don’t, are politicians in every sense of the word even if unelected. Like pretty much every other job, the guys doing the actual work might recognize something as stupid, but that doesn’t mean they have any influence in getting it changed.
How many SWAT teams does it take to ‘take out’ a school shooter?
No one knows, it’s never been tried….
Yeah, that was made unfortunately famous at Columbine. I seem to remember that some officers broke ranks and charged towards the school building, but were called back by their superiors, until everything was quiet. If “officer safety” was the overriding concern, then why didn’t they just stay at the station house?
Go with the Glock 23.
Use Hornady’s .40 S&W ammunition–180-grain JHP XTP
A cop-bash thread. I should have seen this crap coming… these discussions are all the same. This is why you won’t find many cops, current or former, participating in discussions like this. We end up being expected to atone for the sins of every bad cop, and endure every pejurious, bigoted, and false stereotype the chattering classes can muster.
If you switched “police” with “blacks,” you’d sound just like the goons from the National Alliance.
Terrifying civilians with military-style special ops gear doesn’t create a supportive community environment for police, but rather it’s opposite – something The NewGuy might want to consider before he blows off a nervous citizen’s reaction to “Tactical Pants and Ninja Gear†while reinforcing the us-against-them cop stereotype.
Take a look in the mirror. I didn’t start this, and it’s uproariously funny that you’re bitching about “us-against-them” when most of the scorn is coming from your own mouth.
Incidently, you can’t have it both ways: either give cops the gear and training (including time to train) to confront active shooters (and endure the “OMG! P0l1Ce M1litar1z4tion!!” cries from the usual suspects), or don’t bitch when they don’t rush the building like the Marines at Iwo Jima when they lack the training, mindset, or equipment to handle it. Pick one… you can’t have both.
And it wasn’t “tactical pants and Ninja Gear” it was ”fucking morons in tactical pants and ninja gear.” Now, would you really call that a “nervous citizen’s reaction?” Really? I’d call it something else, and as long as it’s phrased that way, I won’t hesitate to heap sarcasm and scorn on such an uninvolved and uninformed opinion.
I’d say the true moron is the one passing scathing judgement on an incident he was neither briefed on, nor involved in.
Sorry NewGuy, but I used to train tactical teams. The 40 hours training we gave them wasn’t nearly enough to make them proficient, but only enough to point them in the right direction. Some, who were committed to continuing their education, and who served in departments where that education was provided under experienced leadership, became highly proficient. Some went back to departments where they received no additional training and had no experienced leadership, and some small few were frankly untrainable. The later are what we refer to as Fucking morons in Tactical Pants and Ninja Gear.
40 hours of training is better than nothing, and I fully expect to see you out at your next city council meeting insisting on a levy for more money and more inservice time for your local “fucking morons in tactical pants and Ninja gear.”
It’s become an altoghether common and risible sight to see ninja cops in black kevlar helmets huddling behind their cars and shields while students and teachers are killed.
Columbine was a learning experience for everyone. Suggesting it’s a common occurrence is flat-out dishonest. Rein in your hatred of cops for a second and recognize the progress that’s been made since that incident.
Now, does anyone have any real questions, or anything substantive to add? Or are we going to go around and around about this all night?
are you kidding me? allowing citizens to walk around with guns is crazy. No one can guarantee that a citizen is “normal” or sane and so you cannot determine what each person will do with his gun. Imagine a fight erupts between 2 individuals and they are both carrying guns.. because they are upset, at least one of them will have the reflex to pull out the gun and things will get out of hand as opposed to if no one is carrying a gun, one of the possible scenarios is that they beat each other up, which is always better than committing murder. The solution to all this is to control how guns are sold. If Cho Seung-Hui had never been able to buy one, none of this would have happened.. things seriously have to be looked over at!
If Cho Seung-Hui had never been able to buy one, none of this would have happened
I suspect you mean if he had no legal means to buy one. If not please explain, in detail, your bullet proof plan to prevent illegal sales of guns. I’m sure it will make interesting reading.
anne, please tell me you forgot your sarcasm tag.
Well, one time a cop gave me a speeding ticket.
That sucked.
So, yeah, I hate cops.
Or, “Nannystate produces infant”?
If you think I’m going to sit quietly and wait to be shot, you’re the crazy one lady, not me.
Why? I’m not the fucking moron in ‘tactical pants’ and a ninja outfit hiding behind my car….
“Haven’t been briefed on it” Hahahaha!
Even Barney Fife would have pulled the one bullet out of his shirt pocket, if kids were being killed, loaded it and Done his Duty.
“Active Shooter” Hahahah! I guess if he wasn’t shooting he would be an ‘Inactive Shooter’, but then he wouldn’t be shooting, so he wouldn’t be a ‘shooter’ at all, so the cops wouldn’t have to do anything….
So if he is shooting, he is an ‘active shooter’ and, apparently, no cop has the training to engage him so they Stand Around, but if he isn’t shooting, then he’s not ‘active’ and the cops just Stand Around.
This is just too good…. What ‘progress’ has been made? The cops did nothing at Columbine and they did nothing here.
Did they do nothing faster now? Or more tactically?
I just got my new Gall’s catalog with all the cool gear in it–and I think: “What is all that stuff for?!”
This is just too good…. What ‘progress’ has been made? The cops did nothing at Columbine and they did nothing here.
Did they do nothing faster now? Or more tactically?
I would share what I know of this incident, but in your case, it would be pearls before swine.
Run along, kid. You don’t know nearly as much as you think you do.
Well, there are other people who’d like to hear the ‘real inside stuff’ you know.
‘Kid’ heh. OK, I’ll play ‘bigger dick’ with you: 16 years in the Army, Infantry, Airborne, Air Assault, Counter Intell ‘Stuff’…. I’ve forgotten more about that ‘tactical’ buzzword shit and Close Quarters Combat than you’ve ever known.
But there is one difference: I move toward the sound of gunfire in my Hooah ninja outfit….
So c’mon… What kinda great inside stuff do you know? Like what Cho did before or after he Fed-Exed a package to NBC during his ‘active shooting’?
I wish some of your cop bravado could have saved students and professors….
Oh, come ON, guys. Don’t be suckered.
It brags and cries and gets angry and when it’s time to put up it gets all secretive.
Either this is one of those cops that make the other 95% look bad, OR the Mall Ninja has finally achieved his dream to work in the public sector.
If you are really a cop, TheNewGuy, please let us know where you work so those of us unfortunate enough to live there can move away.
BTW, you’re 5:25 post was the most pathetic thing I’ve seen on a blog since… well, since the last time I actually READ a telephone pole post. You may not have started the topic, but you sure as Hell started the fight.
This isn’t about cops, it’s about your personal agenda, whether it’s trolling or paranoid delusions of persecution.
And I forgot to mention, TNG sure did derail the thread, the point of which is that the people who actually NEEDED guns here were forbidden to have them.
No matter how good and noble and perfect cops may be, they can’t BE EVERYWHERE.
Geez, calm down everyone! I may have to admister a stern finger wagging otherwise…
He certainly had you pegged as a shit-talking pussy before you proved it.
There’s one thing we don’t know, though.
Exactly how small does a man’s penis have to be for him to talk like that? Look down and lay some no-rent John Wayne knowledge on us, macaroni.
If you aren’t in cowering practice with your band of brave brothers, and you’ve got no handcuffed black kids you’re busy punching, that is.
I have had a time or two I have been grateful to be armed…and some of them were even in the US.
The best weapon is one you are proficient (and safe) with.
I did like the remark about the .22 and not wanting to be shot in the face, BTW.
When I was an ASA I knew plenty of good cops, and some real losers too. It’s a profession with lots of members – you will find all types. I seemed to find that the departments in my county were generally good, but those with better leadership avoided the problems that others have discussed here.
Same as the Armed Forces, now that I think about it…
It appears everyone wants a piece of me… fine.
Kid’ heh. OK, I’ll play ‘bigger dick’ with you: 16 years in the Army, Infantry, Airborne, Air Assault, Counter Intell ‘Stuff’…. I’ve forgotten more about that ‘tactical’ buzzword shit and Close Quarters Combat than you’ve ever known.
Sure thing, guy. If that’s the case, then you’ve clearly forgotten a cardinal rule: “don’t talk sh*t about it if you weren’t there.” I called you a kid because you’re acting like one, passing judgement without knowledge, and generally acting like everything BUT a seasoned professional who’s BTDT. You won the “bigger dick” contest, but not in the way you’re probably thinking. If you have an excuse for your conduct, I’d love to hear it.
Why? I’m not the fucking moron in ‘tactical pants’ and a ninja outfit hiding behind my car….
“Haven’t been briefed on it†Hahahaha!
So what do you know about the incident besides what you’ve seen on the news? Judging by your posts, Absolutely nothing… otherwise you’d know that three different IARD teams from several agencies made entry to that building. The cops you claim were only “standing around” were the perimeter officers, and weren’t the ones actively seeking the shooter. There’s more to come… Blacksburg is still putting their debrief together.
But there is one difference: I move toward the sound of gunfire in my Hooah ninja outfit….
Of course you do. It seems to me you’re the one claiming to be a bad-ass, and making this a penis-measuring contest. That’s another strike against you; professionals don’t brag.
BTW, you’re 5:25 post was the most pathetic thing I’ve seen on a blog since… well, since the last time I actually READ a telephone pole post. You may not have started the topic, but you sure as Hell started the fight.
You’d better go back and read it again, Mero. I stepped up to the plate after gray’s “Fucking morons in Tactical Pants and Ninja Gear…” post. Then Ric piles on about cops behaving badly, then came Joe’s “intimidate and collect revenue” post, then Swen’s contention that cops really ARE “Fucking morons in Tactical Pants and Ninja Gear”, etc, etc. Have you even read this entire thread? As for pathetic, I find few things more pathetic than monday-morning quarterbacking sans actual knowledge.
This isn’t about cops, it’s about your personal agenda, whether it’s trolling or paranoid delusions of persecution.
I have no agenda (apart from correcting a few misconceptions), and I’m no longer sworn.
and Boz’s post is pure gold:
He certainly had you pegged as a shit-talking pussy before you proved it… If you aren’t in cowering practice with your band of brave brothers, and you’ve got no handcuffed black kids you’re busy punching, that is.
I can feel the love in there… right back ‘atcha, Boz. Where’s that sweet balm of healing that Jeff is always talking about?
And just to return this thread to its proper topic, I support appropriately-trained citizens (including teachers and of-age students) carrying concealed weapons.
Talk about missing the forest for the trees…
Just how long did it take to assemble said IARD teams?
And just what was going on in the interim?
Oh yeah, a perimeter was established.
Meanwhile a shooter was active.
And people were bleeding out.
Dude, I’m pretty damn supportive of law enforcement. I have friends who are cops, I have cop friends who have been shot in the line of duty.
But part of being a public servant means coming under some very public scrutiny.
If you can’t understand that a bunch of up-armed and armored guys perennially coming in a day late and a dollar short looks mighty bad then maybe you need to seek a better vantage point.
And lose the us v.s. them attitude, it’s poisonous. People went out of their way to mention it was only certain sub-types of cops that they were addressing. The only reason anyone might want a piece of you is that you elected to become spokesperson for that very subtype.
And lose the us v.s. them attitude, it’s poisonous.
Now why would I have an attitude like that? I simply can’t think of anything in this thread that would make an ex-tac-team guy defensive, can you? But you’re right… it definitely IS poisonous. I’m perfectly capable of having a rational, insult-free discussion of these issues, but I refuse to be the whipping boy for everyone’s personal beef with bad cops, fat cops, or insufficiently-Rambo-esque cops.
People went out of their way to mention it was only certain sub-types of cops that they were addressing.
Out of all the smack-talking posts in this thread, Only two posters qualified their statements as a subset of officers: Swenson and Mero… all the rest were fairly blanket condemnation of police and/or tactical units. Go back and read it again.
If you can’t understand that a bunch of up-armed and armored guys perennially coming in a day late and a dollar short looks mighty bad
Precisely correct… which is why the training has been pushed out to the patrol officers, along with the appropriate equipment (patrol car rifles) to effectively implement it. Patrol officers are going to be the first ones on-scene, and they’re the ones who need those tools. The downside is that this generates complaints about the “militarization” of policing… As I mentioned above, you can’t have it both ways. If you think more officers should have this capability and mindset, then feel free to contact anti-police-“militarism” authors like Peter Kraska, Radley Balko, et al, to let your feelings be known. Help us out instead of throwing around cheap accusations of cowardice.
Just how long did it take to assemble said IARD teams?… And just what was going on in the interim?… Oh yeah, a perimeter was established… Meanwhile a shooter was active… And people were bleeding out.
3 or 4 trained officers = IARD team. I have not yet seen a detailed timeline on this incident, but the first 911 call was received at 0946, and officers responded to the building almost immediately. It did take time for officers to gain entry through the heavy wooden doors, all of which were tightly chained shut from the inside. They resorted to shooting their way in with shotguns, while other officers attempted entry from adjacent buildings, and through the school’s underground utility tunnels. The first team that made it inside headed for the gunfire, and heard the gunman shoot himself just as they reached the second floor.
The accusation that the officers just sat on their cowardly, donut-stuffed asses and let people die is a pernicious falsehood… but I expect some will push that meme anyway (it fits so nicely with their general disdain for cops). They will also hem and haw, and generally fail to apologize for their accusations of cowardice, even in the face of evidence to the contrary. The same thing happened after Columbine… this will be no different.
Seriously… what is it with forums like this and police issues? I’ve seen these types of discussions turn nominally-rational people into raving lunatics and bigots; even erudite posters lose their minds on this stuff (I’ve abandoned a few blogs entirely after some particularly bad exchanges). It’s highly ironic to me that a forum that’s normally so razor-sharp on identity politics would see the kind of blanket stereotyping and rank bigotry we’ve seen in this thread.
Nonetheless, the cops were entirely ineffective. Just like at Columbine and any other school shooting, but they did come storming in in ninja gear yesterday pushing women around….
Except in this case the shooter left the first scene, went and Fed Exed a bunch of stuff to MSNBC and went back to killing people.
The killings only ended when the killer decided to kill himself–he probably ran out of ammo….
How could the cops have been less effective!?
But that’s the point, Gray. We can’t rely on the cops to be everywhere and do everything, nor would I want them to go rushing into a situation they didn’t yet have a handle on.
This guy is shooting up a school and chaining doors…who’s to say he hasn’t left booby traps for first responders?
Rushing in without all the info is how heroes are born, sure. But it’s also how widows are made.
So I’m not going to be so quick to condemn the police.
Rather, I’d like not to have to rely on them alone.
Right now, there’s a discussion going on over at Scribalterror about the relative ineffectiveness of CC to stop shootings.
That’s more along the lines of the discussion we should be having.
The majority over there believe that CC permits won’t prevent such things, and could in fact worsen the situation. I think that both assertions are correct, but both miss the point: which is that CC permits can lessen the carnage, act as preemptive deterrent, and, in general, return some of the responsibility to self defense back to citizens.
If I have one gripe with some police officers, it’s with the ones who believe that citizens shouldn’t be allowed to carry guns.
Well, we can’t have our Mid-April Massacres turning into shootouts! Someone could get hurt!
You’re right of course…. Sorry for the threadjack.
Y’know, a previous school shooting was stopped by CCW holders.
Had a look at the thread. Meh. At this point, I think it’s beyond question that CC helps prevent crimes generally, and would have reduced the carnage of the other day. Whether it would have made things worse is a tad harder to say with confidence, but I wouldn’t think so.
I’ve never been in the middle of shootings, but in my younger days I was caught in the middle of riot-type situations. While navigating the mob looking for an exit, it always seemed pretty clear to me who wanted to do me harm and who didn’t. There might be a moderately interesting psychological/sociological investigation into how we detect these clues.
The New Guy:
I’m the son of a police officer. You’ll have to look a while to find someone more inclined to give police a benefit of a doubt. But your initial presence here has confirmed the stereotype of insecure, bully cop. Dump a bucket of water on your raging paranoia and you will be taken more seriously and politely.
I’m not interested in the name of the locality where you worked, but can you tell us the population of the locality where you worked and how large your department was? Thanks.
But your initial presence here has confirmed the stereotype of insecure, bully cop.
Say what? I’m one guy, trying to defend my fellow operators. I disseminating some information and attempted to put the actions of the VT officers in an understandable context. In return, I’m called every name in the book, mocked and jeered, and basically subjected to incoming fire from the entire forum… and I’m the bad guy? WTF, over. I’m a bully for calling people out on their sweeping generalizations and unjustified pejoratives? Excepting Major John and our host, virtually everybody else attacked, smack-talked, nodded right along with the cop-bashing, and generally behaved like an hallelujah chorus. That’s rare for this blog, and I have to admit I was taken aback by the vehemence of it all.
Tell you what… I’ll accept your reproach when you start taking some of the other posters on this forum to task for their trollish behavior.
As for any insecurity, I’m not the one bragging about what a bad-ass I am.
Sorry for this mess Jeff.
Bob:
Sorry… missed your last question.
I started out on the training side of the house in the early nineties.
I’ve worked for several departments over the years. I started out with one of the largest metropolitan sheriff’s departments in the country, with a very busy SWAT team (200-300 call-outs per year). From there I moved to a much less busy team in another municipality. I also did some of this in the military (two tours in the desert).
I’m no longer AD, and no longer sworn, but I stay active in the training/education side of things (the wife wanted more kids, and there just weren’t enough hours in the day to do it all).
Did I answer your question adequately?
TNG:
Thanks. I was hoping for a tad more specificity, but that’s good enough for my purpose. Just trying for some context.
IMO…
I understand and agree with the frustrations over a system that knew Harris, Klebold and Cho were problems, but found reasons to do nothing. (Thereby leaving police in the position of cleaning up the mess after it happened.)
But if you’re going to defend police, you do need to own up to the failures. Both at Columbine and at Blacksburg, police were entirely ineffective at mitigating anything. Both incidents ended when the perpetrators completed their work and committed suicide. Your comment about “making widows” I think encapsulated the problem some have, as it indicated an attitude that despite the fact that you’re the armed, armored and trained guy that you don’t give a fuck about the citizens killed as long as you get to go home after your shift. That attitude is entirely understandable ordinarily, but police officers are supposed to have certain responsibilities they take on in exchange for the additional power they are granted. (FYI, my father was shot when he chased a heavily armed bank robber into some brush after a car chase. This was in the pre-vest days.)
I do think there is a problem with some police tactics, where police are forgetting they are civilian authorities and not paramilitary. I’m thinking of the incident where Atlanta area police killed an elderly woman in her home. If you don’t see the problem in that… But that subject is probably for another day.
But if you’re going to defend police, you do need to own up to the failures. Both at Columbine and at Blacksburg
What failures are those? These were two very different incidents. I’ll tell you about the “failures” as I see them.
In the case of Columbine, I see the failure to break out of an old training paradigm… but that’s an understandable failure. Any Mil/LE trainer worth their salt will tell you that under pressure, you revert to your training; “fight like you train, train like you fight.” The guys at Columbine did exactly what they’d been trained over and over to do… Just as the passengers on 9/11 did what they’d been trained/urged/indoctrinated to do. Prior to Columbine, the model was “contain and call-out.” For the 9/11 passengers, they’d been trained to sit passively and wait for the hostage-rescue folks to get them out (were they “cowards?”). Once that paradigm was obviously broken (and the passengers had the opportunity to assess their options), they stepped up; flight 93 provided a shining example of what we should do from this point forward.
As for Blacksburg, it was no Columbine. By comparison, the entire VT incident was over quite quickly (this was no hours-long, drawn-out incident). But if by “failure” you mean the inability of LE to be everywhere at once, then I suppose it’s guilty as charged.
To further contrast the incidents, Cho may have barricaded himself inside, but he didn’t leave booby traps and UXOs scattered all over the school like Harris and Klebold. Columbine HS was also a vastly larger and more-complex structure, with many more rooms. The Columbine gunmen had also set off the fire alarms, so the hallways were ankle-deep in water, and klaxons interfered with communications. The Columbine gunmen also booby-trapped the parking lot by rigging explosives in their vehicles and parking them where they surmised the responders would muster… it was only some very basic errors in bomb design that defeated that particular part of their plan.
Harris and Klebold put their year of planning to good use. Frankly, everyone likes to hang the Columbine albatross around the necks of SWAT, but the more you seriously dig into the details of that incident, the more amazed you’ll be that more people didn’t die. In retrospect, I’m sure all those guys would have done it differently, but they had an outdated response model, and didn’t have the benefit of perfect hindsight and sober reflection.
Your comment about “making widows†I think encapsulated the problem some have, as it indicated an attitude that despite the fact that you’re the armed, armored and trained guy that you don’t give a fuck about the citizens killed as long as you get to go home after your shift.
Actually, that was Jeff’s comment. The “going home at the end of my shift” thing is normally used as a motivator when involved in a life-and-death struggle with an assailant… not as an excuse to do nothing. Those that use it as the latter don’t last long in my experience.
I do think there is a problem with some police tactics, where police are forgetting they are civilian authorities and not paramilitary.
I addressed this. You’re asking regular patrol officers to, in effect, “storm the walls,” but in the same breath complaining about being too militaristic? If you want guys to throw themselves into the breach, you need to appropriately train, equip, and support them… you can’t have it both ways.
I’m thinking of the incident where Atlanta area police killed an elderly woman in her home.
If it turns out that those guys bullsh*tted their way through that whole thing, fabricated evidence, and made up a phony CI story, then they should go to jail.
Believe it or not NewGuy, I agree with this completely, that’s part of the point I was trying to make.
The “equip” part is easy: Order up some surplus uniforms and special weapons and issue every patrol officer a set to carry in his trunk. No problem, right? Unfortunately, there’s seldom enough time for training and there’s seldom enough money for training. Even more unfortunate, there’s often not enough support for training from the higher echelons of the department and the politicians who pass out the money which, I suppose, is why time and money for training are short.
Then the shit hits the fan, the patrol officer with 40-hours training five years ago puts on the SWAT suit and.. he’s too often the one we see on the 5 0’clock news. I’m hoping that’s because the guys who got more time and money for training and have more experience are off doing their ninja thing someplace where the news cameras don’t dare go, Hmmm? Still, as we’ve all gathered from this thread, it tends to give a bad impression.
I lay most of the blame for this at the feet of the higher-ups and politicians, but then that’s where my dad and grandad, both LEOs, laid the blame. Come to think of it though, I don’t recall a lot of letters being written to the union complaining about this bad situation.
I also share the blame in that I recall stressing the hands-on aspects of the training I was involved in when I should perhaps have been stressing the need for continued training. But my highly trained, mostly green beret NCO trainers could turn anybody into superman in 40 hours flat, so why would I want to do that? It would have shown insufficient “can do” attitude and I really would have gotten whacked if I’d started telling people that our training course was completely inadequate—two whole hours of rappeling training. Yikes!—but that’s what we had the time for and that’s what we had the budget for.
So yeah, we all want it both ways. We don’t want to pay any more taxes. We don’t want to write letters or attend city council meetings, or complain to the union or our higher-ups. We do want kinder, gentler father-figure LEOs in pastel colors, but we also want them to be able to leap into a phone booth and turn into the Amazing Wonder Force at a moment’s notice.
Perhaps, just perhaps, that’s a bit too much to ask, but thus it ever was and ever will be, and that’s why we all need to take some responsibility for our own self-defense. Which, IIRC, was the original point of this post.
Are you people out of your minds????? Are you really suggesting that your gun laws are overzealous and that everyone who can get a gun permit (which apparently is just about everyone) in a school should carry one for self protection. Are you people high??????? Or are you just intent on destroying civilisation as we know it? I can’t belive that most of you feel like you have the best country in the world? I have lived in the US three times over the past two decades and can feel it getting crazier and less democratic at each visit. You guys are certainly leading both charges.