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KERRY APOLOGIZES! [posted by The Colossus]

kerry_genghis.jpg

“I’m sorry . . . did I say Genghis Khan?  I may have meant Kublai Khan.  Or maybe Chaka Khan.  Or maybe, you know, that guy that Ricardo Montalban played.  I can’t tell you for certain.  We were all doing a lot of that Thai stick that the Special Forces guys gave us when we took them into Cambodia.  Christmas, 1968.  Or was it 1972?  I don’t know, Senator, but I know there was a lot of terrorizing going on.  Kicking in doors, that kind of stuff.  I had a hard time reining those guys in. Jesse Macbeth, I distinctly remember him cutting off a kid’s ear.  Or maybe shooting him.  I don’t know, exactly.  As one of the better educated guys, I spent a lot of time in my hooch, drinking Jack Daniels and listening to Jim Morrison . . . he took a face from the ancient gallery . . . and he walked on down the hall! . . . (inaudible) . . . Colonel Kurtz killing a sacrificial cow with a hatchet, surrounded by worshipful Montagnards in white face and a picket fence made of human skulls.  You know.  Shit that you just can’t get out of your system.  Do I apologize, Senator?  I don’t know.  I think I’m kind of beyond that now.”

60 Replies to “KERRY APOLOGIZES! [posted by The Colossus]”

  1. John F. Kerry says:

    I am sick of being misquoted.  I refuse to be Swiftboated by you bastards.  Now excuse me while I find my friend Jim Webb, embrace him, turn him over and put his penis in my mouth.

  2. monkyboy says:

    You took an oath to defend our flag and our freedom, and you kept that oath underseas and under fire.

    –George W. Bush,

  3. serr8d says:

    I took an oath to defend our country, and kept it as best I could while knee-deep in bong water…

    -John Kerry, Failed Presidential Candidate, 2004

  4. Robert Schwartz says:

    I wrote the following about Lurch in August 2004. I think it has held up pretty well:

    Kerry made his 4 months in Vietnam the centerpiece of the Democratic convention, glossed over his participation in V.V.A.W. and ignored 20 years in the US Senate. This was done deliberately so he could run to the middle. He has been running ads clipping his acceptance speech with guff about a strong military and strong alliances with France. The real issue is who is the real John Kerry? Was the convention John Kerry, the real John Kerry?

    My own take on the convention is that the whole thing was phony as a three dollar bill. If the convention had reflected what was really on the delegates minds, they would have demanded immediate withdrawal of American troops from Iraq, termination of American aid to Israel, war crimes trials for Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz and reparations.

    But what about Kerry? Who is the real Kerry? Did the convention show the real John Kerry? or is the real John Kerry the guy who was the V.V.A.W. mouthpiece, who threw somebody’s medals or ribbons over the fence and who in a twenty year Senate career has earned highest marks from the ADA while accomplishing almost nothing?

    I think most Republicans would like to run against the hard core leftist. But I don’t think it’s that simple.

    I think the real John Kerry is nothing. He is hollow on the inside. He has no core. He has only ambition. He marries for money and social status. He adopts politics for temporary advantage. The accident of his initials gave shape to his military career (thus the choice of the Navy, volunteer for the swift boat, buy the movie camera, hope to star in his own personal PT109) and his route to the senate. When he got back from Viet Nam, the wind was blowing out of the other quarter. Easy, join V.V.A.W., throw medals (not your own they might come in handy later) go back to Massachusetts and do what ever Teddy Kennedy does.

    Look at the way he handled the primaries. Dean picks up momentum as the “anti-war candidate.” Kerry, who had said it would be wildly irresponsible to vote against the Iraq funding bill, votes against it to cut Dean off.

    Why are the Swift Boat guys after Kerry. You may if you wish impugn their motives or you can pull Karl Rove out of the magician’s hat, or you can claim Bush put them up to it (on those days when you don’t think he is too stupid to walk and chew gum at the same time). My guess, and I don’t know any of them, is that they are angry, they are angry at John Kerry because they believe that he is a user who used them, they are angry at the media who defamed then in the 1970’s, they are angry at the liberals who have indicted them as war criminals and baby killers (based in part on John Kerry’s testimony) and convicted them without ever giving them a chance to defend themselves; and this anger has festered with compound interest for a generation. They see their fathers lionized as the greatest generation, their children sent to Iraq with respect and the first member of their generation to be lauded is the one who betrayed them. Lord that must hurt.

    If I were in their shoes, I would write a book if I had to do it longhand, and I would make sure the word got out if had to stand on street corners and shout. If I went to Rove and he sent me to some guy in Texas with money and a publishing house in NYC so much the better. But my guess is that the CREP has had minimal contact with this.

    Kerry’s problem with the Swift Boat book is not that it makes him out to be a liar or a coward. But that it makes him out to be what he is, a hollow man.

    Last spring I saw a Maureen Dowd column about Kerry. I quit reading MoDo a couple of years ago after Bush Derangement Syndrome crippled her. But that column contained a gem of a quote:

    “It’s not often that you get a presidential candidate to recite poetry to you, especially in a year when W. and J.F.K. are going macho a macho. But there was Mr. Kerry flying from Boston to New Orleans on Friday, sipping tea for his hoarse throat and reeling off T. S. Eliot’s “Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock.”

    “There are so many great lines in it,” he said. “ ‘Do I dare to eat a peach?’ ‘Should I wear my trousers rolled?’ ‘Let us go, through certain half-deserted streets/The muttering retreats/Of restless nights in one-night cheap hotels/And sawdust restaurants with oyster-shells. Then he started on “Gunga Din” and “ ‘talk o’ gin and beer.’”

    I thought that the following lines from Proofrock were a perfect motto for the Kerry campaign

    Do I dare

    Disturb the universe?

    In a minute there is time

    For decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse.

    For I have known them all already, known them all:I

    Have known the evenings, mornings, afternoons,

    I have measured out my life with coffee spoons;

    I know the voices dying with a dying fall

    Beneath the music from a farther room.

    So how should I presume?

    But someone else suggested that another Elliot poem would be more appropriate:

    The Hollow Men

    Mistah Kurtz—he dead.

    A penny for the Old Guy

    I.

    We are the hollow men

    We are the stuffed men

    Leaning together

    Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!

    Our dried voices, when

    We whisper together

    Are quiet and meaningless

    As wind in dry grass

    Or rats’ feet over broken glass

    In our dry cellar

    Shape without form, shade without colour,

    Paralysed force, gesture without motion;

    Those who have crossed

    With direct eyes, to death’s other Kingdom

    Remember us—if at all—not as lost

    Violent souls, but only

    As the hollow men

    The stuffed men.

    Of course the literary connection runs deeper than that. The rubric of the poem is from Conrad’s Heart of Darkness, which Coppola filmed as Apocalypse Now, which Kerry has worked into his personal narrative as his secret mission up the Mekong.

    The thing about truth is that we can not stand it, we seem always to have to push our lives into the narratives we have heard of grander things, we never want to confront our own pettiness, our own selfishness our own errors—our own humanity. The thing about great art, whether Elliot, Conrad or Coppola, is that it returns us always to the truth, to the heart of darkness.

    The Swift Boat vets are laying him Kerry bare, not as a liar, not as a coward, but as a hollow man.

  5. ahem says:

    Yeah, but Kerry’s also a liar and a coward. Credit where credit is due…

  6. John F. Kerry says:

    I am not a coward.  You do not understand my love for Jim Webb.  It is a Navy thing.  I belong to a brotherhood you cannot understand unless you are married to a woman like my wife. 

    My comments were taken out of context.  I was not referring to the Navy, which is a branch of the service I love, but to the Army and especially the Marines.  The Marines are brutes and misanthopes who do not understand the nuance of the human condition.  I hate them.

  7. Dan Collins says:

    Robert–

    That’s why Kerry’s comments about Republicans wishing to debate straw men were so funny.  Dude’s stuck to a tar baby of his own making, and he can’t extricate himself because he’ll never, ever utter the words, “I was wrong.”

  8. DrSteve says:

    Seared… seared in my memory.

  9. John F. Kerry says:

    You have no idea how cramped those swift boats were.  Men half dressed sharing that space, the heat, the sweat. . . we did things.  Terrible things. 

    It is seared, seared in my memory.

  10. monkyboy says:

    At least Kerry went to Vietnam.

    If Kerry is a coward, what are Bush and Cheney?

  11. The Colossus says:

    Robert,

    I largely agree with you, except that Kerry—try though he may—will never replicate the layers of political shrewdness that Kennedy has.  Kennedy is, in my estimation, a pretty rotten human being, but he understands that he is flawed, and had surrounded himself with a political and constituent staff that performs very well.  Kennedy, for all his bluster, understands that he is human.  In my experience as a constituent I have dealt with both men.  I have written blistering, angry letters to both. 

    Kerry’s reply was a form letter of the “I understand you are concerned about [INSERT ISSUE HERE]” variety.  Kennedy’s letter was typed, signed in ink, articulate, on point, and intelligent.  Now I don’t believe either man actually saw my letter.  But some staffer of Kennedy’s took the time to answer me in a professional way.  I think it’s apparent that I have nothing but contempt for Kerry.  But Kennedy—whom I often mock and revile—I actually have a measure of respect for.  He may be rotten, but he surrounds himself with pros, and he has the political discipline to realize his limitations. 

    My point in this Kerry piece—if I have one—is that Kerry has this elaborate personal mythos that he believes about himself.  He cannot ever be wrong, because he is a United States Senator.  In other words, I think Kerry quite often believes his own bullshit.  If he says he went to Cambodia, then he went to Cambodia.  If he says that he was addressing Bush and not the college kids, he was addressing Bush and not the college kids.  To admit otherwise would be to admit fallibilty—and with that admission, the mythos collapses.

  12. 6Gun says:

    It is seared, seared in my memory.

    Speaking of Halloween, Kerry’s the only guy I know have seen pictures of who went from monstrously ugly to merely ugly.  Pickle juice?

    If Kerry is a coward, what are Bush and Cheney?

    Damn good-looking.  Yet ungainly so, monky, granted. 

    Just not obsurdly, pathetically, cravenly, incorrigibly, and pathologically oafish.

  13. TheGeezer says:

    monkyboy must fellate the Kerry virtual erection, having failed to grasp anything otherwise substantial philosophically.  Thus, he/she spews chickenhawk nonsense that invalidates itself almost immediately (Can one support law enforcement unless one has been a police officer?  Can one support abortion unless one has has one?  Can one oppose abortion unless one has had one?  Can one suggest dieting as good for you unless you’ve done it yourself?). 

    He/she has to spew Kerry’s emissions.  It is the only thing one can do, unless one swallows.

  14. monkyboy says:

    Not sure I undestood your Brokeback lingo, geeze.

    Just curious why Kerry, who faced combat in Vietnam, could be thought of as a coward, while Bush and Cheney, who did everything they could to avoid going to Vietnam, wouldn’t be considered even more cowardly?

  15. Robert Schwartz says:

    And that is another connection. “A penny for the Old Guy” is a traditional chant that is used by children to raise funds for the Guy Fawkes Day (5-Nov) celebration, which includes the burning of straw men in a celebratory bonfire.

    Of course the penny itself has further connections to ancient myth and ritual.

    Daniel 5

    Belshazzar the king made a great feast to a thousand of his lords, and drank wine before the thousand. …

    In the same hour came forth fingers of a man’s hand, and wrote over against the candlestick upon the plaister of the wall of the king’s palace: and the king saw the part of the hand that wrote. Then the king’s countenance was changed, and his thoughts troubled him, so that the joints of his loins were loosed, and his knees smote one against another.

    The king cried aloud to bring in the astrologers, the Chaldeans, and the soothsayers. And the king spake, and said to the wise men of Babylon, Whosoever shall read this writing, and shew me the interpretation thereof, shall be clothed with scarlet, and have a chain of gold about his neck, and shall be the third ruler in the kingdom. Then came in all the king’s wise men: but they could not read the writing, nor make known to the king the interpretation thereof.

    … Then was Daniel brought in before the king. And the king spake and said unto Daniel, Art thou that Daniel, which art of the children of the captivity of Judah, whom the king my father brought out of Jewry? … And I have heard of thee, that thou canst make interpretations, and dissolve doubts: now if thou canst read the writing, and make known to me the interpretation thereof, thou shalt be clothed with scarlet, and have a chain of gold about thy neck, and shalt be the third ruler in the kingdom.

    Then Daniel answered and said before the king, Let thy gifts be to thyself, and give thy rewards to another; yet I will read the writing unto the king, and make known to him the interpretation.

    And this is the writing that was written, MINA, MINA, SHEKEL, PERSIANS.

    This is the interpretation of the thing:

    MINA; God hath numbered thy kingdom, and finished it.

    SHEKEL; Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting.

    PERSIANS; Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians.

    Then commanded Belshazzar, and they clothed Daniel with scarlet, and put a chain of gold about his neck, and made a proclamation concerning him, that he should be the third ruler in the kingdom. In that night was Belshazzar the king of the Chaldeans slain. And Darius the Median took the kingdom, being about threescore and two years old.

    The Mina was the penny and the Shekel, the pound. The Persians destroyed the Babylonian Kingdom and freed the Jews to return to Judah.

    Darius was a Persian, not a Mede. He came after Cyrus who conquered Babylon.

  16. Scape-Goat Trainee says:

    At least Kerry went to Vietnam.

    If Kerry is a coward, what are Bush and Cheney?

    They are what’s called WINNERS.

    Kerry’s what’s called a LOSER. An arrogant prick of a loser, but still a loser. And he always will be.

    And those that defend Kerry when he says stupid things are called IDIOTS.

    There. That’s your lesson for the day.

  17. sgtted says:

    While John Kerry was vilifying the Armed Forces as Rapist baby killers, Bush was flying fighter jets.

    I have 23 years in and served a tour in Iraq.

    I voted for W.

    Twice.

    Tell me monkybutt, what branch of service have you served in?

    If you have served, too bad you didnt learn anything.

    If you didn’t serve, shut the fuck up.

    I’d vote for W’s left ball before I would ever trust the nation to the likes of Kerry.

  18. TheGeezer says:

    Cowardice is not an issue.

    Attitudes towards the troops is.

    Period.

  19. monkyboy says:

    Are you saying someone who avoided combat is braver than someone who did, sgtted?

    Actually being in combat is meaningless?

  20. Drumwaster says:

    Actually being in combat is meaningless?

    Only when attacking Democrats, otherwise it grants “absolute moral authority”.

    TW: Too bad Kerry didn’t go the distance84…

  21. Big Bang hunter says:

    – whats meaningless monkeyshit, is trying to characterize a blockhead opportunist like Kerry as a “hero”.

    – Hero’s don’t end every sentence saying “Did I mention I served in VietNam”.

    – Hero’s don’t shoot themselves in the ass, not once but twice, with granade launchers, and then put themslves in for medals.

    – Hero’s don’t have a war record that’s so fucking bad, including a less than honorable discharge, that they can’t allow it to be made public.

    – You’re on a fools errand monkypoo, shoveling shit against the tide for a 24 carat asshole.

    – Have you written or emailed Kerry, asking him to come up with that ever so elusive DS-180. If not, why not. why are you wasting your time here?

  22. monkyboy says:

    How do you feel about the Marine Corp veteran that George Allen’s thugs beat up today, BBh?

  23. Big Bang hunter says:

    “How do you feel about the Marine Corp veteran that George Allen’s thugs beat up today, BBh?”

    – You mean Mike Stark…the self styled “activist” that likes to cause public uproars, and riots if possible, to stifle the opposition. The idiot that got escorted out on his ass when he tried twice to rush Allan and his wife, screaming obsenities at him. would that be the “Veteran” you’d be reffering too. I think he belongs in jail. Pure and simple. If he rushed at My wife or girl friend I’d put him in the fucking hospital for 6 months…..

    – Nice change of subject, not responding to a single point I made…..Now about that form DS-180…..

  24. sgtted says:

    Tell me monkybutt, what branch of service have you served in?

    If you have served, too bad you didnt learn anything.

    If you didn’t serve, shut the fuck up.

    Try again monkybutt.

  25. monkyboy says:

    Thanks, BBh,

    I wasn’t aware this veteran had already been swiftboated yet.

    sgtted,

    In combat, would you rather have John Kerry or Dick Cheney holding a shotgun next to you?

  26. Big Bang hunter says:

    “I wasn’t aware this veteran had already been swiftboated yet.”

    – Yeh…I can understand how you feel. Real bitch in this day of high speed instant communications, video cams, and all of that, when a lying Liberal just can’t distort the truth anymore. Lifes a bitch and then you die.

    – Is form “DS-180” sticking in your craw, or do you just “blank out” whenever you see that in print?….

  27. monkyboy says:

    So it’s okay for veterans to badmouth their fellow soldiers if it furthers the Republican cause, BBh?

    Or are the swiftboaters cowards, too?

  28. Big Bang hunter says:

    – Telling the truth does not equal bad mouthing you dolt. But we all can understand perfectly, that you’re unable to make that distinction. the more you post the dumber you look.

    – BTW. Kerry has cancelled all public appearences for tomorrow , and possibly Thursday. One of the candidates Kerry was scheduled to speak for, Brucy Braley, Congressional Democratic candidate in Iowa, has asked Kerry to cancel an upcoming campaign visit, calling Kerry’s statement on US troops “inappropriate”.

    – I’m sure Lurch is relieved. He got his ass kicked soundly in Iowa, the other time he was there in ‘04.

    – I can guess that behind the scenes the Democrats are fucking praying Lurch-ass will just shut the fuck up and go away…..

  29. monkyboy says:

    So you think it’s okay for Marines to be treated like trash if they don’t agree with you?

    A curious way to “Support the Troops.”

  30. Big Bang hunter says:

    So you think it’s okay for Marines to be treated like trash if they don’t agree with you?

    – Every word you post is more lies. Stark was escorted bodily out of the hall by some bystanders, just normal folk who support Allen, and don’t think its appropriate behavior to physically assault and yell obsenities at your political opposition at the tiop of your lungs, behavior I’m sure you would support gladly monkeyass.

    – Before you type anymore bullshit, you should know the entire incident(s), were recorded by several people on cam. So trying to mischaracterize it as some “poor ver” getting beat up by those evil NeoCons, is a con job that won’t wash.

    – Now for the 4th time. where’s that form 180?

  31. monkyboy says:

    I believe Mr. Stark asked George Allen if he had spit on his ex-wife. 

    You don’t think someone running for Senator should be asked questions like that?

    When is Allen going to release his divorce papers, btw?

  32. Big Bang hunter says:

    – In other words, you’ve got nothing. Kerry’s an indefensible asshole. I know it, You know it, everyone knows it, so you’re silent. And the monkeyass tradition of willful denial and strident ignorance rolls on.

  33. monkyboy says:

    All I see, BBh, is you don’t really give a rat’s ass about the people who serve in the U.S. military unless they happen to share your current political views.

  34. John F. Kerry says:

    Thank you to those men who have defended me.  Bush and his team are liars and I will not be swiftboated again.  I am sick of these lies and their dirty politics.  Cheney, Rove, Bush, they are just like Teresa–that bitch.  God how I can’t stand her.  Hillary too, she is a two faced bitch.  I know she sabotaged me in 2004.  Yes, they are all bitches.  I hate them. 

    I am going to be President.  I will not be denied.

  35. again, monky has no freaking clue what “supporting our troops” means.  Does serving in the military make one’s judgement infallible? no. (I could tell you some stories about RTO) You support them when they are doing their jobs. or in something that resulted from their actions while doing their jobs. so unless you’re now going to argue that Mr. Stark was ordered by the Marines to go and harrass Allen, shut up.

  36. monkyboy says:

    Here’s what Kerry said in the testimony he gave where the photo in the original post was taken:

    In our opinion, and from our experience, there is nothing in South Vietnam, nothing which could happen that realistically threatens the United States of America. And to attempt to justify the loss of one American life in Vietnam, Cambodia, or Laos by linking such loss to the preservation of freedom, which those misfits supposedly abuse, is to us the height of criminal hypocrisy, and it is that kind of hypocrisy which we feel has torn this country apart….

    As his words were proven to be true, why wasn’t he “supporting the troops?”

  37. CraigC says:

    As for Bush “doing everything he could to get out of Vietnam,” Monkeyass, that’s another Democrat lie. Pilots from the 147th Fighter Interceptor Group, as it was called at the time, were actually conducting combat missions in Vietnam when Bush enlisted. Air Force F-102 squadrons had been stationed in Thailand since 1961 and South Vietnam since March 1962. He requested a transfer to a squadron that was going to Vietnam and was denied.

    The F-102 was a notoriously difficult aircraft to fly. ANG members of the period have said that only highly qualified pilot candidates were accepted for F-102 training because it was such a challenging aircraft to fly and left little room for mistakes. The lifetime Class A accident rate for the F-102 was 13.69 mishaps per 100,000 flight hours, compared to today’s planes which average around 4 mishaps per 100,000 hours. 

    So the next time you want to say that Bush was a coward, shut the fuck up instead.

  38. CraigC says:

    And just by the way, The F-102 claimed the lives of many pilots, including a number stationed at Ellington during Bush’s tenure. Of the 875 F-102A production models that entered service, 259 were lost in accidents that killed 70 Air Force and ANG pilots.

    Ass.

  39. Scary Sexy Chocolate Thing says:

    Please excuse me for mentioning something other than john kerry in this thread.

    Late Monday i found on the web information i hope would be damaging to the democratic party in the upcoming congressional elections.  The information is that the religion of peace has been rioting again in fraance, where one incident was a islamic crowd pulled passangers of a bus in marseille [spelling=?] and one of the passangers a 26 year old woman was burned sever enough to be life threatening. This info can be found by using the littlegreenfootballs hyperlink to Jihad Watch, and from Jihad Watch the hyperlink to A New Dark Age Is Dawning dated october 30, 2006.

    I have not heard any discussion of this on Boston talk radio or in the newspapers, so i called the Republican National Headquarters 202-863-8500 to let them know this information could damage the democrats chances in next weeks congressional elections. Please would the readers of this website also call the Republicans at the number above to get thier attention that this can be an issue in the final days of this election cycle to use against the democrats.  [NOTE – i had to insist on talking to the political department]

    Thank you for condsiering my request to call the RNC.

    Happy Thanksgiving

  40. Karl says:

    If you compare what monky is babbling about in this thread with his babble in the prior thread, it’s fairly obvious that in monkyworld, Kerry cannot be criticized by anyone—not even his fellow veterans, even though Kerry accused them of mass murder and generally smeared them as engaging in atrocities when the number of troops convicted of serious crimes in Vietnam was about .01 percent of those who served.

    It’s the rank partisanship of a mindless moron.  And in the words of the mindless morons, let’s MoveOn, shall we?

  41. monkyboy says:

    Kerry was repeating testimony that the soldiers themselves had given, Karl.  He didn’t accuse them of anything.

    The last F-102 was lost in Vietnam in 1967, three years before Bush started flying them, Craig.

    Looks like he flew 278 hours in F-102s…which would mean over the course of his service, he had about a 3% chance of being involved in a “mishap,” which means the aircraft was damaged somehow or a passenger or crewman received an injury during the flight…

  42. Karl says:

    Kerry was repeating testimony that the soldiers themselves had given, Karl.  He didn’t accuse them of anything.

    So he felt free to pass off hearsay accusations of war crimes that he wouldn’t vouch for—in Congressional testimony?

    Now I understand why you’re defending him, monky.  The guy is a saint.

  43. Karl says:

    Just kidding on that last part—Kerry’s a scumbag.  As is the monky, apparently.

  44. Karl says:

    And just so everyone in this thread knows, monky has already been informed that the “Winter Soldier Investigation” was a scam.  His response in the other thread was to link to a Village Voice piece in which the reporter “pored over” the records from ‘Nam and found a handful of cases—far from the picture Kerry sought to paint in his testimony before the Senate.  And there was nothing suggesting that these were the cases alleged at the “Winter Soldier Investigation,” either.  So monky is now taking the position that Kerry was just fine passing off bogus crimes accusations of imposters to the Senate.

  45. monkyboy says:

    By “scam” you mean someone over at wingnut central cites a book that cites an NIS report that nobody can produce they claim said a few of the soldier’s testifying were not credible?

    You don’t seem to have a very high standard of “proof” when you agree with something, Karl.

    If you don’t agree with it, however…

  46. Karl says:

    For those who don’t live on monkyworld, “someone over at wingnut central” is Mackubin Thomas Owens, a professor of strategy and force planning at the Naval War College in Newport, R.I. He led a Marine infantry platoon in Vietnam in 1968-1969.  Just to give you an idea of monky’s support for the troops, and his complete ignorance for what National Review’s position has been on Iraq, for example.

    Owens, in turn, cited James Reston Jr., Neil Sheehan and Daniel Ellsberg.  If monky thinks they are “wingnuts,” it says just how batshit crazy he is.

    In contrast, the Winter Soldiers Investigation was inspired by Mark Lane’s 1970 book entitled Conversations with Americans. Monky obviously doesn’t know that Mark Lane is one of America’s premier tinfoil-hat makers.

    And in the other thread, he didn’t question any of this.  He does so now because he just backed himself into claiming that it was okay for Kerry to just pass along the unverified and bogus smears of others to Sen. Foreign Relations Committee. 

    He’s reached that “I have to pretend the US was not going to invade Japan at the end of WWII” level of detachment from reality to maintain any sort of position.  As such, not different from Kerry at all.  I’m sure monky will be showing us his “magic hat” from his secret mission to Cambodia soon.

    But I urge monky to spread his crap far and wide between now and the election; the GOP certainly could use the help.

  47. monkyboy says:

    Hehe,

    Again I see a willingness to believe any military guy who agrees with you, but any military guy who doesn’t…

    Mackubin cites a book by a guy called Guenter Lewy to try to discredit some of the Winter Soldiers testimony…

    But in the end, authorities offered no public challenge to the veracity of the allegations.

    “I don’t think Lewy is interested in presenting any of [the Winter Soldier testimony] as truthful,” said University of Richmond history professor Ernest Bolt. “He has an angle on the war as a whole.”

    Bolt said it is impossible to tell whether Lewy fairly characterized the naval investigative report because no other historian had seen it. “He’s using the points of their investigation that fit his purposes,” Bolt said.

    http://tinyurl.com/yhmdsv

    It’s like the swiftboaties thing.

    It sounded pretty good, but when you examined the individual claims…they turned out to be laughably nonsensical.

    In any case, the Winter Soldiers testimony has never been proven to be false…the army confirmed many of their stories and their testimony was read into the Congressional records.

    You have to be quite biased to assume Kerry was acting in bad faith when he quoted their testimony…

  48. Ric Locke says:

    …when you examined the individual claims…they turned out to be laughably nonsensical.

    Which is the core of the defense of John Kerry.

    But the specific claims are nearly irrelevant. Say they’re all false. You still have to explain why it is that, of over two hundred people who served with the man under conditions in which they were living in one another’s pockets under constant threat of violence if not death—of those two hundred, all but three were willing to either directly accuse Kerry of being a scumbag, or to lend their names to the accusation.

    …you don’t really give a rat’s ass about the people who serve in the U.S. military unless they happen to share your current political views.

    Well, that’s specifically your Hero’s modus operandi, no? Worse: you and the rest of the apologists are willing to support the military, and veterans, only if they accuse their fellows of vileness.

    Much more to be said, but I’m late to work already. Keep the thread alive, guys.

    Regards,

    Ric

  49. SteveG says:

    monky…. In combat: Cheney is what? 78 years old? But that old bastard is tough and loyal as can be.

    I could watch his back for nights on end but John Kerry would turn on me in a minute, he’d whine and blame everyone else for his own failures.

    Cheney has issues, but being a waffling whiny weasel isn’t one of them.

    If the Democrats would quit putting complete tools like Kerry and Gore up for election maybe they’d win one… oh yeah, and when their candidate makes a total freudian hash of something maybe the democrats could coach the pompous windbag(s) from Massachussetts to apologize right away. That’ll help too.

    Kerry saved face with the rabid wing of the party by taking the offensive and screeching he’d “never apologize”. Everyone else could see through this right away…. because the proper thing to do when you stumble over words and say somthing hurtful (unless you are an arrogant dipshit) is to apologize to anyone hurt by your remarks and maybe then offer a very brief explanation, fold up the papers and get the hell out of there.

    Plenty of time to put out the “explanation” and get all righteous about it later.

  50. 6Gun says:

    I’m curious:  Kerry looked into the camera last election and promised every American citizen free healthcare.

    Is this constitutional?  Is government in the business of providing every basic need for each and every voter?  Isn’t that called communism elsewhere?  Doesn’t communism fail every time?

    By what right did Kerry make this promise?  Who or what empowered such a promise?  Did the Treasury approve?  How about Congress?  The voters?

    Do voters even have the ethical and/or constitutional right to change government into a free services provider, presumably in exchange for involuntary taxation/servitude/oppression?

    Is John Kerry a liar then?  A Communist?  Was Heinz going to foot the bill?

  51. 6Gun says:

    In other words, why does monkyspunk religously support Kerry?  What is the underlying ethic?  What would a Kerry presidency have wrought?  What principles drive Jay Effin Kay?

    You still have to explain why it is that, of over two hundred people who served with the man under conditions in which they were living in one another’s pockets under constant threat of violence if not death—of those two hundred, all but three were willing to either directly accuse Kerry of being a scumbag, or to lend their names to the accusation.

    Pursuant that, what principles actually drive Kerry supporters?  If Kerry is a fraudulent socialist promiser, lacking authority or historical basis to attempt to singlehandedly convert US government and society itself into something they’re clearly not, namely a dependent gulag, and if Kerry is a fraud as a US serviceman, lying and misrepresenting facts and persons, then by what possible moral standards would an individual defend their sorry choice to defend the jackass and even go so far as to advocate for his presidency?

  52. The libs needn’t try the chickenhawk put-down here.  If military service trumps non-service, then a more illustrious or valorous record trumps a lesser.  So, McCain wins!

  53. B Moe says:

    In any case, the Winter Soldiers testimony has never been proven to be false…the army confirmed many of their stories and their testimony was read into the Congressional records.

    You have to be quite biased to assume Kerry was acting in bad faith when he quoted their testimony…

    Bullshit.  The DoJ tried to get into the hearings and was blocked.  They tried to get information to prosecute the cases and were denied.  Not a single incident from the “testimony” was ever prosecuted.  You give links to incident after incident of the military prosecuting and punishing soldiers, yet defend Kerry’s assertion that the behavior was offically sanctioned.  You are an idiot, and a lying, disingenuous one at that.

  54. CraigC says:

    The last F-102 was lost in Vietnam in 1967, three years before Bush started flying them, Craig.

    Huh?  What?  First of all, the statistics I cited were for all incidents, not just combat.  Second, you make one of my points, you moron.  The F-102 was known to be a difficult, dangerous plane to fly long before Bush volunteered to fly them.

    The fact remains that it killed 70 airmen, including, as I said, several who were at Ellison AFB while Bush was there.  Everyone who was there contemporaneously has said that Bush was an exceptional pilot, in fact he wouldn’t have been accepted for training otherwise.

    So, just to be clear, assuming you were there at the time and based on your claim that he “only” had a three percent chance of an accident, you’d have jumped at the chance to fly the F-102, right?  Right.

  55. BJTexs says:

    SteveG brings the thread back from the intellectual wilderness that is chimp-anus.

    For both of our trolls, let’s try to make this real simple and bring it down to brass tacks. Let’s not even debate whether or not Frenchy was supposed to say something else, because, ultimately, it’s irrelavent. The problem is that the words that Frenchy spoke are hurtful to military personnel in Iraq. If he had an iota of humility he would have apologised to the troops in Iraq for the words he spoke in a public forum before slamming his critics! Instead he issues the equivalent of “how dare you even suggest that I would feel this way about troops” because all of us should know better. Neither of our 2 trolls can either see or are willing to acknowledge the mind numbing arrogance that goes hand in hand with Frenchy. It is the reason why everytime I hear him speak I am compelled to run outside and strangle a small animal; the unapologetic, crystal pure aristocratic arrogance.

    No amount of intellectualizing, changing the subject or reframing the argument will hide this single, shining fact.

    BTW: I take extra time to find an endangered species…

  56. Karl says:

    monky quoted Ernest Bolt attacking Lewy.

    monky does not mention that the left-wing Center for Media & Democracy lists Bolt as an “External Source” for Vietnam Veterans Against the War.

    …and monky stll has nothing to say about any of the other sources debunking the Winter Soldiers.

    BTW, Kerry is laying low now. It seems like it was just yesterday that monky was crowing about Kerry reminding people who could have been President.  Oh, it was.

  57. 6Gun says:

    No amount of intellectualizing, changing the subject or reframing the argument will hide this single, shining fact.

    Not that it’s going to stop them trying. After all, the principle of a thing pales by comparison to knowing what’s better for the lowly redstaters than they themselves do.

    Read:  Pathological dishonesty is for your own good.

  58. ThomasD says:

    Monky, you know nothing of Kerry’s service record other than what he has told you.  Why don’t you write Kerry and request he release an unrestricted SF-180?  Better yet, print out the form, then send it to him for signature.

    http://www.archives.gov/research/order/standard-form-180.pdf

    After all, wouldn’t any brave, honorable, well educated soldier want the formal record of his noble service available for public perusal?

    But Kerry has never done that has he?  Now why wouldn’t he?  He’s a brave war hero right?  Why wouldn’t he want his service record made public?  Something to hide perhaps?

    So why don’t you prove us all wrong, write Kerry and tell us what the reply is.  Otherwise just STFU, you’re not winning any points here.

  59. McGehee says:

    Kerry is the perfect poster boy for the Dems in ‘06, since if they win their plan for Iraq is to declare “Vietnam” and go home.

  60. Charlie [Louisiana] says:

    I thought after the 2004 election that I would never be forced to see or hear that traitorous slimeball John Kerry again.  It seems I was wrong. 

    Just for the edification of the trolls and any other assorted sleazebags that might read this, here is a lesson about honor.

    There are things that honorable people do, and things they do not do.  If you want a complete list of what honorable people do not do, all you need do is peruse the post military career of one John Forbes Kerry.

    Honorable people do not return from war and sell out their brothers in arms.

    Honorable people do not vilify their brothers in arms with groundless accusations.

    Honorable people do not meet with enemies of their nation [unless specifically so authorized] to discuss terms of peace or surrender.

    Honorable people do not give aid or encouragement to the enemies of their nation.

    [These last two are called ‘treason’, the only crime specifically described in the Constitution of the US, and are punishable by death.]

    John Forbes Kerry, may he burn in Hell for all eternity, is no honorable man.

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