Fox News says yes, indeed (citing Israeli intelligence as its source). Via Ace, who asks:
What if Israel now bombs Teheran to the ground?
Is such a tactic acceptable, as long as we don’t dirty our virgin hands with such terrible barbarism?
Got My Answer: I’m told that Israel can only attempt attacks on purely military targets, despite the fact that Israel’s enemies are free to attack population centers.
Because Israelis should be “better.”
I’m thinking Israelis right now aren’t terribly concerned about being “better.” I think they’re more concerned with survival.
Sorry. But if Israel survives by fighting in ways designed to ensure its survival, the terrorists will have won.
Having said that, targeting military installations in Iran—if in fact they can prove with a degree of certainty that Iran was behind the strike—is a better option than attacking civilian centers in retaliation. Of course, if Iran has hidden some of it’s military installations inside civilian centers, once warnings are given, all bets are off I’d imagine.
Though I’m not sure it’ll come to that.
****
update: Hot Air has the FOX video and a roundup.
Allah notes (via LGF) that CNN is confirming the earlier report, and writes:
All the proof you’ll ever need of how worried the region is about Iran: Saudi Arabia  Saudi Arabia  is blaming Hezbollah, not Israel, for the crisis.
Heh.
Heh, heh.
Bwaaaahahahahaha….
Fox News reports that leaflets warning Beirut civilians to seek safety were dropped by the thousands over the city today by Israeli planes.
Is this adequate warning, and how long should civilians have to clear the area?
I got no problem with Tehran being leveled; 72 hours maximum warning, but with a sharp watch for removal of military materials. They have the government they deserve. Sadly, so do we.
If this is true it’s a dangerous thing. Iran can’t just fire one, not and avoid looking very, very ineffectual. If they fire more Israel can’t ignore them.
Maybe the Iranians are hoping that the prospect of escalation will make the White House rein the Israelis in. That’s a big gamble too. The White House might not. If they don’t and the Iranians decide to rush to the Islamists aid, (through Iraq) then America has an excuse to decimate the Iranian army, and Air Force, and while they are at it crush Sadr City. If that happens Syria is doomed.
Egypt and Jordan are going to tell the tale. If they make no moves the Iranians and the Syrains are in for a very rough ride.
I think that what Israel is actually doing here, bombing the airports and highways, is first of all trying to keep their hostages from being spirited out of Lebanon. The rest of it is smoke and mirrors. I might be wrong, but, if they start bombing Iran, they will need US assistance (it’s a long way), and I don’t know if we want to start that fight, yet.
$5 a gallon by Labor Day? You tell me.
Apparently Israel’s going to war with the army they have.
Curse that Rumsfeld.
Curse him to heck.
I also have to say that, I am not opposed to a general war and re-ordering of the Arab/Muslim world but I don’t think the American people have been prepped for that and I don’t think we have the ground resources for that. You have to occupy the ground, police the ground, secure the borders, etc. If we want to do that, OK, I’m in, but we have to prep the public, mobilize, ration, and draft. No way we can do all these things with the limited ground forces we actually have available. For example, if we start bombing Shi’ite Iran, we have lost South Iraq, in all likelihood.
I’ve got video of the Fox report. Personally, I think it’s bullshit, but worth keeping an eye on.
Fox News AND Israeli intelligence say the Iranians rocketed Haifa?! Let’s roll.
And by “roll” I mean of course, let’s get comfortable in front of our computer screens and write some really blistering denunciations of Islamofascism. Because that’s, you know, a lot easier than actually picking up a gun, or living on the Gaza Strip.
Well, no. I’m afraid the government they have runs beyond a simple ironic backfiring of the rejection of the Shah (a genuinely bad guy) leading to marginally worse outcomes. I don’t think the vast majority of the Iranian people (personal guess: 70 percent or more) support the current regime—they’re just not in much of a position to do anything about it. And considering the pervasiveness and ruthlessness of the regime’s controls on the population, that’s not surprising.
There is an Israeli advantage in an air war. We’d let their airplanes go back and forth over Iraq with no interference, whereas we might shoot down any Iranian aircraft that enter Iraqi airspace.
Plus, Israel is small–an advantage when considering defense against aerial bombardment.
Steve,
You may be right. Time will tell. But at this rate an attack on Iran won’t be necessary. A few missles aren’t going to stop Israel. So either the Iranians watch thier proxies get butchered, in which case the rest of the Middle EAst will know that no matter what Iran says it does not have your back, or Iran has to go to Lebanon. Whether it tries to go through Turkey or Iraq, it won’t get there.
24, did you actually read any of the posts above yours? Or was the subject matter of the thread enough to stimulate that premature little emission of yours?
And the chickenhawk meme? Please.
As I read the GCs, once one side stops obeying the targeting restrictions, the other side is released from them, too. The Iranians and Syrians are using cut-outs, but it’s their weapons, their training, being used to shoot missiles at random into Haifa.
And, bluntly, this war won’t be over until somebody loses, and loses in the classical sense—destruction, destruction, destruction. Any negotiated settlement will just be used by the Muslim world the way they’ve used all the previous ones—to re-arm, re-stoke the hate, nurse their grievances, and pump up the “poor-pitiful us” propaganda.
It’s ugly, but it’s clearly the path they’ve chosen.
Hezbollah has offices in Damascus.
Think the Israelis will hit Syria soon?
Perhaps even the Dorktator himself?
Fox reporting Beruit being clobbered around hizbollah hood.
24—Evidently CNN is saying the same thing, if that makes you happy.
And Saudi Arabia is blaming Hezbollah.
I’d tell you check the update, but you probably just drove by to drop the chickenhawk meme—even though I’m not sure how many Israeli citizens are posting here.
steve,
We don’t have to invade Iran. We’re fools if we do. Their Saudi brothers can rebuild the place after we destroy their nuclear program, wreck their military, and decapitate their mullacracy.
We owe Iran for the Embassy takeover, Beruit, Khobar Towers, and assorted other atrocities over the past few decades.
A “proportionate” response would be a mistake. Our restraint is taken as weakness. It is past time to end this. It starts in Tehran. Let it end in Tehran.
Last time I checked, to do all of those things will require several weeks of bombing and collateral damage of many thousands, if not hundreds of thousands. It will also incidentally greatly spike the price of gas, so this is something the world community (or our fellow Americans) will accept with equanimity.
Moreover the Sunni Saudis are not likely to rebuild the Shiite Iranians, who aren’t even Arabs, after all.
The “Drop two bombs and call me in the morning” approach to foreign policy hasn’t been persuasive ever since the failure of “Shock ‘n’ Awe” to make Iraq quiescent for the flower-tossing triumph of Emperor Chalabi.
Who, exactly, would you consider authoritative enough to believe?
The NY Times?
The UN?
It figures.
And since I’m not sure we have any citizens of Israel as regular posters here, to whom are you directing the “chickenhawk” meme?
– If the Iranian missle thing is true, the Mullah’s have to be bat-shit crazy to dip their toe in this thing. The state departments assessment that they are desperately escalating to hang onto power must be at least somewhat on the mark. When this “it may be war”, gets far enough along that Hezbullah is calling for a “cease-fire”, I think Bush should offer to help Lebonon eradicate them completely. If Iran is actually directly involving itself we should take out the Mullahs places in Tehran.
– A lot of the American units in Iraq would love to meet up with the IDF and do a little Islamic meat grinding anyway. Particularly if the road leads to Demascas.
If you look real carefully at my face you might see some concern.
I doubt it, but you might.
24,
Fuck off.
McGehee – I’m shocked…. simply shocked I tell yah…..You’re usually so reserved. Don’t tell me the fuzzy frog legs are making you testy again….
Uhh, dude, shock and awe cleaned Iraq’s clock ahead of schedule, and while it did not interrupt the Iraqi ‘war machine’ [harrumph], it did not focus on the Iraqi war machine either but on a Clintonesque campaign against infrastructure.
You do not damage what you do not hit.
Airpower does work. It can cause a buttload of pain like a diet less of fiber and a polloped colon.
I hear FedEx is sending a shitload of parkas and mukluks to Hell. Something about the thermostat being out of whack.
Oh, and 24?
What McGehee said.
Or you can parachute your sorry ass into Gaza to stand in front of an IDF tank as a human shield. It amounts to the same thing.
God bless the IDF.
I made much the same argument on my blog.
(This is not a shameless plug. It is impolite to paste a post into a comment.)
perhaps the Iranians would be nice enough to fire one off at the pally’s 10,968 holiest site in Jerusalem as urban renewal. I hope Israel makes their enemies pants go brown.
WTF 24? You better slip the water wings on, boy, and make wake. Gaza is a pretty hard swim from Jersey and the Palis have plenty moron-portable bombs they need to mobilize.
Chop, chop little sing sing. Get the lead out.
>>It is impolite to paste a post into a comment<<
I don’t know about that, unless it’s really long.
I would like to associate myself fully with the comments directed at ‘24’ by the honorable members above.
And Verc too.
Verc – I do believe you just got a “dishonorable” high compliment…..
Vercingetorix,
Sadly, no.
It’s been going on since Og and Ag were at one another’s throats, and Og decided to hide behind a tree and throw rocks. He figured he could hurt Ag enough that he’d be easy to throttle. As it happened the bruises weren’t enough to disable, so they still had to go to the eye-gouging to settle the issue.
Ever since then there have been attempts at remote-control war. Every single one of them ended up the same way: if you don’t have enough firepower to significantly reduce the combatant population (Crecy, Agincourt) all you do is piss them off. And when it got to long-distance stuff it got worse, not better. The Germans actually increased their production of war materiél while the bombing was going on. It ain’t just the airplanes, either. On several of the Pacific islands we had up to twenty ships bombarding to “soften them up” before the landings. According to Dad, who was there, it would have been about equally effective for every sailor in the Fleet to send them a love letter.
It would be really nice to be able to sit back and let the robots do the dirty work, but it ain’t gonna do the job, no way, no how. If we aren’t ready to send Buck the Marine to Damascus there isn’t much point in bombing.
Regards,
Ric
I am offended that 24 is using Willie Mays’ uniform number to post here. Say, hey.
Why do I feel like crying? You like me, you love me, you hate me, but still do I get even one reach around after endless hours spooning? I do all of this for you guys; I might have to unionize myself and charge Jeff gazillions of dollars for the privelege of my endless rape of his bandwidth.
Geez, Verc… OK, fun time’s over, guys.
Ok Verc… That tears it….the kid gloves are off…. McGehee, Charlie, Ric…. where did we put the Goodyear Blimp dildo?……
That’s OK, Verc. I hear Jeff G. has persuaded Former Adjunct Professor Deborah Frisch to pay you a visit at home, for some, ummmmmmmm, counseling. Yeah, counseling, that was what I overheard in the next room, while pretending not to shamelessly listen in by reading the current edition of The Monthly Marxist Manifesto. I guess this is her way of proving she’s really sorry.
But I didn’t understand the reference to ‘dillos, black leather, handcuffs, and a copy of Gomer Pyle, USMC: Volume 2. Oh, and cheap tequila.
The “collateral damage” and “proportionate” memes of the Left are laughable. When YOU don’t insist that terrorists and the regimes that support them, stop targeting and hiding behind civilians, your hypocritical bleats fall on deaf ears. Your twisted interpretation of the Conventions seems to be only selectively applied. When you give unlawful combatants a pass for not being uniformed and clearly identifiable, not to mention allowing them to “hide” among civilians, who’s to say who’s a civilian and who isn’t? How does one tell? So by unintentional consequences, you’ve now made “civilians” fair game.
Happy now?
Uh, BBH, I’m afraid that, uh, Helen T. is using it.
How about this one? Give ‘im a pretty decent gerund, and refinance his house at the same time…
Regards,
Ric
Ric, I sympathize with your statements; as a slope-foreheaded, hair-palmed, knuckle-dragging jarhead myself, I am very much in the ground camp.
But let’s correct a few things that are…a little off in your assertions.
First, allow me to be pedantic. It was never Og and Ag, but primeval warfare had two characteristics.
One is the internal power struggle (politics of blood, if you will) and two was nascent inter-tribal warfare. Your description of Og and Ag would be like murder or challenging the alpha male, and not intertribal conflict. You challenged the bull-male, you probably fought unarmed, and in order that your ascendance was respected should you win, you likely fought honorably. We see the same thing in all other social groups, especially belligerent groups, lions, dragons, wolves, baboons, etc.
But in eternal intertribal we see in chimpanzees. They find an isolated male and then stone it until it is hurt, and only then do they engage close up, biting and killing it as a group against an individual. Missile weapons predate close weapons.
Consider the Greeks and Persians, or even the Persians under Cyrus the Great against the Medes, Assyrians and on. Their enemies, such as the Assyrians or Egyptians, assembled in the open plain typically 100 deep, several thousand wide, often with refused centers and extended flanks so as to create a bowl and enclose their enemies. Ancient armies fought in ranks that thick because they lacked the discipline to maneuver as coordinated smaller blocks (Greek Phyles, Enomtia, Lochoi, or Roman Maniples, for instance); in the clash of armies, it was common for armies to flank another and thus decide the battle.
The issue with these forces is that terrain was never a consideration–few ancient commanders thought to anchor a wing on some prominence in a region chock full of hills–and the disposition of forces favored the best equipped, cavalry for instance. In the ancient world, it was chariots, again a missile platform. Then chariots fell out of favor; improvements in the bow allowed the incredible firepower that could dwarf even the fast chariots.
The Persian order of battle was a row of huge wicker shieldbearers in the front row (to establish a mobile pallisade), followed by three ranks of heavy shield and spearmen, and back another 8 to 12 of archers. In the open plains, this was indeed an asset. But nothing on earth can stand the shock of a hoplite charge; Greeks used armor and close order weapons to crush their enemy, even as the Zulus broke from their ancestral throwing spear-and-bow-warfare to the short assegai. They close and kill.
This has been a steady tension between missilery and close combat predicated on terrain and the needs and capabilities of the day. Rome after the Samartian wars developed the Polybian (I think) Legion that won the Punic Wars. It could defeat the hoplite charge because of the pilum, a heavy javelin with a bendable warhead that could pierce the Greek hoplon and effectively staple itself to it (leverage and gravity), thus dropping the hoplite and staggering the charge. Two per legionnaire (or Hastati or Principes), fired in volleys, could halt the momentum of the phalanx (or Macedonian syntagma) which the legion could close with and destroy using the gladius.
And on and on, through the Spanish tercio and the French battles (at Rocroi, the Spanish tercio/manga combine arms formation were overthrown by French field artillery, William of Nassau and Adolphus Gustavus, Fredrick the Great’s Prussians, the 95th Regiment of Foot (British riflemen) to Napoleon.
Ignoring the role of field artillery now properly delivered by air is somewhat foolish. Just as foolish as the Douhet-fanatics that suggest that all things can be done through airpower. They cannot.
My suggested role for an air-power strike would be less than the regime change we did in Iraq, but we could smash them harder in one month than Saddam did in 9 years. That ain’t nuthin, guys. Combined that with support of Arab Shia in the south (which the Iraqi Shia would certainly support against their Persian co-religionists), Kurds to the North, Baluchs in the south, and Iran, devoid of a maneuverable army, could be made much smaller.
We can make them suffer without investing a single Napoleonic-era division. That is just the facts.
Going for a fun run, see you guys in an hour.
LGF has 2 posts worth reading which pretty much put IDF in the role of liberators.
One from a Lebanese Christian and the other an open letter to Ehud Olmert from the Lebanese Foundation for Peace.
Jordan has told the West Bank to chill, or all Jordanian support will be over for the Palestinians.
Of course, I read it somewhere today and I can’t find the article. My google skills are lacking, but if I run across it again, I will post a link.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen such a look of misery and dejection on the face of my daughter as I just did a moment ago. She just couldn’t understand why Charlie wouldn’t give Verc a reach around when so many things are wrong in this country. “Doesn’t Charlie care about spooning anymore?” she asked pitifully.
I sat down with her on the sofa and (as calmly as I could) tried to explain to her why Charlie seems to be abandoning his fellow commenter. “Honey, I think his boss, Mr. Goldstein, sent Charlie out of the country in order to keep all the action for himself. You see, he wasn’t sure if Verc was going to share or not, and so he planned Charlie’s trip ahead of time just in case…â€Â
I tried to keep my voice steady, but it became increasingly difficult – the rage and feelings of helplessness were just too much. I think my daughter could tell something was wrong. I found myself at such a loss for words – nothing made any sense; nothing makes sense anymore. I finally had to admit, “Honey, I just don’t know – I don’t know what’s going on in this country anymore…”
When I finished her lower lip started to tremble and her eyes began to fill with tears, “Daddy” she said, “why is Protein Wisdom doing this to the country?” Well, that was it for me: I finally fell apart. She just fell into my arms and we both began sobbing for several minutes.
For once she had to comfort me and get me back on my feet. Sometimes I just think it’s too much, but seeing the strength in my young daughter’s voice helped me to get through.
Liar.
I will admit I was more terse than usual, but that’s all. Ain’t gonna waste any forty-three-cent words on the 46,395,647,859,576,895,056th dredging up of that chickenhawk crap.
If “Weekend at Bernie’s” had had that many sequels Terry Kiser might still be alive today.
[…]
What? He is?
Well, he’d be alive and we’d know it!
With Saudi Arabia blaming Hezbollah, we can surmise that permission has been granted to take them out. Egypt and SA I’m sure are equally at risk from Islamists.
Please, Bush, encourage Israel do the job. You will help destroy Mad Mr. A of Iran before he gets the big toy and break the back of terrorism in the ME as well.
I doubt there’ll be time for that Stormy70.
Verc,
I’m not ignoring the benefits of artillery, including air power, and I’m sure as Hell not dissing missile weapons. What I am saying is that things should be used for what they’re useful for, not for wishful thinking or simple meanspiritedness.
Missile weapons, including artillery, are good in the battle against other enemy forces. All of your examples above illustrate this. But they have (as you pointed out) distinct limitations, and one of them is that using them for general bombardment is expensive… and usually useless or nearly so, as demonstrated in WWII. German bombs on London accomplished nothing in terms of furthering the war effort, and cost incredible amounts of resources; general bombing by the Allies of German industry was almost as ineffective. The first firebomb raid over Tokyo was enormously useful as a propaganda effort but did little to physically damage the Japanese; later ones were even less worthwhile. And stories of extensive (and expensive) artillery and aerial bomb “softening up” exercises, followed by fierce resistance instead of easy pickings, are legion.
Even the Air Force knows this nowadays, and honors LeMay’s memory while pitching his strategy out. This leads to a litmus test: if a person uses the phrase “carpet bombing” about American forces in a serious way, that individual’s views can be ignored as proceeding from total ignorance. The U.S. doesn’t have either the bombs to “carpet-bomb” with or the airplanes to drop them. We have smart bombs and Spectres instead.
All of this is leading up to: bombing Tehran, or Damascus, would be a waste of perfectly good bombs. The only way it could be even marginally effective would be to use a nuke, and Tehran is full of good guys interspersed with the mullahs. Damascus is less valuable in most ways, but even there it’d be best to save the neutrons for the human-wave attacks.
Hmm. It occurs to me that it would be useful to blow Ahmadinejad to shreds during a TV interview. But that isn’t bombing per se, it’s a 12” sniper rifle used for assassination.
If the mullahs launch on Tel Aviv all bets are off, of course, but that’s just a rather bitter game of Last Man Standing.
Bodies. Bodies in ugly clothes, with noisemakers, standing on the hilltop congratulating one another for surviving. All else is Nintendo.
On the other hand, we keep forgetting that there’s a pretty good army that’s getting better right next door, one that doesn’t wear Stars and Stripes on its sleeve and doesn’t like Persians much. I wonder if “Marching Through Fars” scans in Arabic?
Regards,
Ric
CheChe’s here!
The party can now commence.
Here ya go Stephen M
OPEN REQUEST TO PRIME MINISTER EHUD OLMERT
Your Excellency,
Dear Mr. Prime Minister,
It was about time,
We Lebanese congratulate you on your recent actions against the Hezbollah terrorist infrastructure in Lebanon. We urge you to hit them hard and destroy their terror infrastructure. It is not Israel who is fed up with this situation, but the majority of the silent Lebanese in Lebanon who are fed up with Hezbollah and are powerless to do anything out of fear of terror retaliation.
Since Israel’s forced withdrawal in 2000, pulling out due to pressure from the Clinton Administration, Hezbollah has not for one day ceased its terror incentives, acts of war and provocations at the border. Hezbollah, with the help of Syria and Iran, turned Southern Lebanon into a terror base supported by 12,000 Iranian missiles threatening every initiative for Peace in general and the security of Israel in particular.
Unfortunately, the West should have understood from the beginning that diplomacy does not work with terrorism, neither the Saudi backed initiatives in Lebanon, it enforces terrorism and acts like a booster for Hezbollah justifications on the ground.
The Lebanese are trapped within their own nation.
We urge you not to hit Lebanese infrastructure, Lebanon is a friendly country, rather hit and destroy Hezbollah’s infrastructure in the country.
The IAF raids on suspected Hezbollah strongholds will have a limited effect on this terror organization; an infantry offensive is needed to clean up Southern Lebanon from the threatening missiles and launching bases , destroy Hezbollah infrastructure and consolidate security.
On behalf of thousands of Lebanese, we ask you to open the doors of Tel Aviv Ben Gurion airport to thousands of volunteers in the Diaspora willing to bear arms and liberate their homeland from fundamentalism. We ask you for support, facilitations and logistics in order to win this struggle and achieve together the same objectives: Peace and Security for Lebanon and Israel and our future generations to come.
As of the fighting continue in the north of Israel in order to create security, at the Lebanon Israel border, we ask the world’s nations to endorse your political action and wish you full success in your deterrence against terrorism’s autonomy in Southern Lebanon and Gaza.
Mr. Prime Minister,
Help Lebanon in order to help yourself.
The moonbats will soon get there wish. US Armed Services very well may redeploy from Iraq this year.
How loud will the moonbats screach when they figure out that redeployment is to Tehran.
Iraq looks like a massive aircraft carrier now.
TW: mass
Rusty  Who do you think you are, Mickey Marcus? You don’t improve a professional, experienced army by surrounding it with an untrained, unorganized, badly led and equipped rabble.
Well, Ric, all weapons are either point or area targets. Bombs are by definition not point weapons as all of our lamentable experiences with Saddam Hussein proved. You are exactly right in saying that weapons have functions and we must respect the precise limitations of those weapons.
I, on the other hand, am not in the Air Force camp where all things war can be done with a bomb. I respect that bombs will be ill-used to do certain things.
The obvious counter to CLinton’s Balkan escapades is Afghanistan, where special forces units and indigineous forces rolled back the control of the native government. My suggestion is to do the same especially in Kurdistan and the Arab south, areas where there is already fomenting rebellion. If we peel off the Kurdish North and the Arab south (or they uproot of their own accord), Iran is officially screwed; it will be forced to fight a war on its ‘own’ turf, not offensively in Iraq or Afghanistan.
And should Iran mass their army for a drive into Iraq or Afghanistan, we can destroy every single vehicle in their army within weeks of the engagement using airpower alone.
If we simply want to punish Iran and not dismember, we can punish them too. I frankly think this approach (punitive airstrikes) is what you are criticising, but it is not the one I’d suggest we follow. On the other hand, punitive airstrikes that damage infrastructure AND KILL (no Clintonesque or Shock-and-awe bombing empty buildings at night) can–properly applied–smash her navies, immobilize and trim her armies, ruin her civics, plunge the country into destabilizing strife, and many other desirable things from a warfighter’s perspective.
Cruise missiles lobbed at tents in the Hindu Kush?
Absolutely not.
A sequenced campaign against civil and military targets?
Yes, please.
Such a campaign with a heavy empathsis on the Persian Gulf and the Kurdish north, including special forces engagements and using forces no doubt allied to Iraqi groups such as the Kurds and Southern Shia?
Faster, please.
Visualize an Iran-less ME. Suddenly not a tooth in it’s rotten head.
So what are we waiting for?
While I’m at it, let me rub salt in the Left’s intellectual wound: If not for the McChimpyHaliburton War for Oil, where would we be sitting now?
Certainly not between Iran and Israel. Which raises the question, why is Iran going all suicidal?
Ah. Verc, actually we’re pretty much on the same page.
What I was complaining about—well, you’ve probably noticed that I don’t say much when “chickenhawk” is being flung around. That’s because in my case I have to admit it’s justified. I served—Navy, long ago—but I’m a natural-born REMF. Let’s you and him fight…
But REMFs don’t win. We help (or so I hope) but it’s you guys with the noisemakers and pointy sticks who do the work.
And in all too many cases area bombing is simply a way to make REMFs feel like they’re the ones who accomplished something. See, I mash this little button and the bad guys give up. Who’s buying the first round at the O-club? I rather suspect that the guys at the pointy end resent that, and they damn well ought to. I resent it, too, because I end up being grouped with the assholes by default.
Your plan sounds good, and I’m not qualified to say much more than that. I do hope (and believe) that at least part of it is being implemented as we speak, and for my taste I think it’s a little long on push-button and short on personal attention, OK?
Regards,
Ric
A quick recap of MSNBC’s front page at this hour:
• Iran incentives could include nuclear reactors
• Group: Nuclear materials ‘dangerously vulnerable’
• Officials: Plotters targeted flood wall at WTC site
• Ex-CIA operative Plame sues Cheney, Rove, Libby
Yeah, let’s sue the freaking White House because we made Time’s cover. If the Left ever looked more asinine, I certainly can’t recall when…
– 6gun…I don’t have the energy or inclination too type out the 36 “AnythingGates” right now….
– I’ll just cut to the end of the third quarter score: Rove/Bush 36 – Libturds/MSM 0
Bear with me…
Okay, so this Russian general goes to speak to his commanders and says to them, “Now, men, in order to be prepared we must be ahead of the curve and predict how the wars of the future will be fought.”
One of his commanders asks, “Well, who do you predict we will be fighting?”
“It looks like it’ll be the Chinese,” the general responds.
The commander then asks, “Uh, the Chinese have over a billion people within their borders and the largest military in the world. How are we supposed to fight them?”
“Look at Israel. They are a country of under six million people. The population have fought and survived for forty years of nearly constant conflict with the three hundred and fifty million Arabs that surround them,” the general answers.
The commander then asks, “Well, how many Jews do we have?”
;-D
Unless they start up that unarmed human wave crap, that could throw a big politcal wrench into the gears…
I dont think they’re limiting themselves to that in lebanon and gaza.
….The General looks at him and says… “Lets put it this way son – Good luck and Shalom to all of us….”
That should go well. If the halt is made, I wonder if it will be sent via certified mail.
I dont go for that easier chickenhawk shit. But there’s going to be a lot of bolding and updating going on. In all hours of the night. Thats for sure.
– Ok. Time for the cowboy to swagger into the scene and ask Lebonon if they’d like our help in finishing this off once and for all.
And I don’t think I’m having lemon ice cream tonite. ‘Course I could be wrong.
Just so y’all know.
tw: Not a day goes by…
6gun – TTP see’s an actual “action” going on that doesn’t involve “theories”, Dobbes book of law, or a keyboard, and his noodle is on overload….
I hear that squeaking noise again. This time I’m baiting the trap with peanut butter. Monkeys and mice love peanut butter. Hmmm…smooth or chunky?
“I dont think they’re limiting themselves to that in lebanon and gaza.”
So what? We carpet bombed Dresden and burned Tokyo to the ground in 1944. This is war.
I submit the #3 rule of warfare: If you intentionally attack our civilians, we get to go medieval on your ass.
Old Russian Army joke:
So the Sergeant is explaining to his conscripts the various parts of the tank.
“We have a radio on the tank.”
A conscript gets up and asks: “Sir, is the radio on microchip or transister?”
The Sergeant says, “Again, for the idiots, the radio is on the TANK.”
Everyday actus posts anything, you have to do the “Again, for the idiots…” routine. Sad, really.
Testing BBH’s premise that the Talking Telephone Pole’s “noodle is on overload….”
In five…four…three…
Bing! And three hundred quarters instantly fall out of pw into BBH’s lap!
Nicely done. That, folks, is how we play that game.
<blockquote>I hear that squeaking noise again. This time I’m baiting the trap with peanut butter. Monkeys and mice love peanut butter. Hmmm…smooth or chunky?</blockquote
Chunky..they just lick the smooth right off…and squirt a packet of ketchup on top if you got it.
Chunky..they just lick the smooth right off…and squirt a packet of ketchup on top if you got it.
Presented in proper form…stupid backspace.
…Thank kyew ….thank kyew….thank kyew very much…..Now I’d like to sing a medley of my “hit”…. Hand me that chickin’ leg son… not nice too fool with the Kingggg…..
Drawing the Devil in Russian:
tochka, tochka, zapitaya
meanooce, krushitzya scrivaya
ooc, ooc, barada
ooha, ooha dva raga
Now, how do I turn him loose?
Oh, and actuse, just to make sure you stick around and say more impossibly stupid shit, please be advised that your ass is completely showing. That and…some other stuff.
Enjoy.
tw: Stay. Damn.
actus seems to be preoccupied tonight. Maybe he’s pouring over those Oregon brochures his twin, the lamppost, left for him the other night.
TW: Progressive dictionary: “for’ward^ – To advance to the rear deployment area.
So like a man…have your fun and and you won’t even cuddle!? You jump on and get off, and it’s like, “Dude, I’m gonna grab me a beer.”
Sometimes a fella just wants to be held. And someone tell the ‘dillo to call me. Say hi. I miss him…but don’t tell him that. Is that too forward? Okay, okay, but just ask if he ever mentions me.
– Yet another way of “advancing to the rear”?
Oh, that Verc! What an attention whore! It creates such a loud sucking sound. Did I say sucking?
PIMF
Headline, First setence, New York Times website.
Wouldn’t
have been a better sentence, considering that the actual confirmed deaths were caused by the Hezbollah rockets?
“Wouldn’t
The militant group Hezbollah loosed a hail of rockets and mortar shells on Thursday, killing two Israelis and sending thousands into bomb shelters as Israel imposed a full naval blockade on Lebanon and put Beirut’s internation airport out of commision.
have been a better sentence, considering that the actual confirmed deaths were caused by the Hezbollah rockets?”
And they say we Jews control the media…
tsk. tsk.
Ouch, but heh.
Verc,
I meant whore in the highest professional sense, you know, the world’s oldest and most respected. Looking back at my age, I’ve lost count of the times and ways I’ve been prostituted, and without the courtesy of… hell, why am I telling you, you know.
Actually, since I was a kid Ted Turner owned most of the local media. I’ve been waiting for the Jews to move in but, instead, I get Turner South, the single most useless station in existence.
I wonder how many Hezbalah rockets were bought with Ted’s billion dollar gift to the Useless Nits?
I am not going there….despite my every want….I”m not going there.
Just think of it this way…
If an Israeli nuke “happened” to fall on Tehran, at least it would be one less thing on the US’s to-do list.
Make sure you read MJ Totten’s prophetic posts: Everything Could Explode at any Moment, and ”On the Rim of a Volcano.”
Both indicate that this operation may have been at least a year, if not more in the making. The posts were written in April of this year and Totten went to the Is/Leb bordr in 2005.
It could’ve been written today. It also mentions missles being moved into the region from Iran, which had ranges of up to 30 miles (enough to hit Haifa).
Un. Freikin. Real.
Verc!
Normally I’m a total victory type, believing that by the time we get to the point where we’ve decided as a nation to go to war, it becomes our moral duty to kill as many of the enemy as possible as quickly and efficiently as possible, to the point that the enemy unconditionally surrenders or there is no one left to surrender, whichever comes first, the goal being to end the war as quickly as possible. End of wars=peace, right?
But there’s something about Iran that’s different.
•They’re a nation of kids. The Iran-Iraq war decimated about a generation and a half of Iran’s population with their human wave attacks and all. Something like 2/3rds or more of the country is under 35 years of age.
•Approximately the same percentage of Iranians despise their government, many of them being interested in living more western, “normal” lives.
•Iran’s military is not Saddam’s military; Iran has some capabilities, including some pretty nasty anti-ship weapons. They are also mostly loyal to the regime.
•This is Persia, an ancient trading culture on par with Jews and Chinese and Indians, a culture which highly values education, citizenship, entrepreneurship, and the arts. They’ve been brutalized for a long time, but they have truly tremendous potential.
•The current Iranian regime is intolerable.
So I’m thinking War 3.0 here. What if we used intelligence + airpower to kill, in a single blow, Ahmadinejad, Khamenei, and the twelve members of the Guardian Council. Bomb them in their homes while they sleep, say, all within an hour.
Afterward, Congress could pass an act of war and an offer of conditional surrender with the following conditions:
The Majlis (legislature) takes over all functions of government. Within 90 days they will be required to remove the Gaurdian Council, the Supreme Leader and the Assembly of Experts out of the Constitution and hold open elections.
Put both a moderate military general and Mohammad Khatami in as temporary co-chief executives.
Of course Iran would also have to stop all support of foreign terrorists. And we would not require that they give up their legitimately domestic nuclear programs.
In exchange, for as long as the Iranian government and military honor the conditional surrender, the US will put not the first boot on Iranian soil. If they don’t accept the conditional surrender, hostilities will resume.
Saddam Hussein was the unquestioned King of Paranoia. The lengths he went to obscure his location and movements is truly legendary. But what about the Mullahs? Do we know where they live? Are we familliar with their movements? If we don’t know, can we find out? Could we nail them all in one spot as they meet with Ahmadinejad perhaps?
What I’d like to ask you, Verc, is: how high am I? =8^)
Do you think this is in the slightest bit plausible? Do you think we have the capability of even pulling off such an attack? Is it possible to win in Iran without engaging her military or attempting to destroy her nuclear sites?
yours/
peter.
Fascinating stuff there peter.
TW: But, what would the Muslim street think?
A group that predicates the superiority of their belief system on a right/obligation to inflict violence on those who don’t share their faith, that system invalidates itself in the human community. Humanity not only has the right, but the obligation to eliminate that belief system from the human neighborhood, by death or by isolation. When that belief system gains power as a nation, then the nation itself must be eliminated, and power to harm others must be removed from it.
Does this mean kill them all? No, but the impulse and compulsion to pursue the same path again must be viciously terminated. As long as that belief system is accorded equal status with tolerant, non-violent, spiritually creative faiths, and those faiths are compelled to step back and tolerate violence against them, the infection will spread, pushing all others into the shadows, rather than vice-versa.
Yes, the free must be willing to spill the blood of those who would act to deny them liberty, and spill it in as large a volume as necessary to achieve and secure their freedom. Victors and survivors will share freedom; those who choose otherwise will be dead, confined, or hiding in the dark.
As the theme song of the American military entering Iraq goes: nothing wrong with me, something’s got to give, push me again, this in the end, let the bodies hit the floor.
Won’t happen, brother, because bombs are not point weapons. Oh, they get better and more accurate but the entire mission of bombing means that it is messy human intercourse in the Clausewitz formulation. We can get 80-90% but never 100% and for a coup de main, such as you are suggesting, you need to be Johnny-on-the-spot.
The issue is we need to revisit the fundamentals of warfare. Attack, always, often, hard, and fast. And where it hurts. And where is that? Where are the mullahs weakest?
I’d submit that they are very weak politically, with a very fractured alliance of interests. For instance, they still have not learned the mistakes of the previous Arab wars and coordinated fighting units against the Israelis (or Americans). Arab command and control is still a thousand miles from the battlefield, like the Egyptian command bunker in Cairo calling the shots, snatching defeat from the jaws of victory as their forces sat just north of the Bar-Lev line in the Yom Kippur War.
Hamas, Hezbollah, Syria, Lebanon, Iran, are you kidding me? Could you pick worse fuck-ups to go to war with? Already Israel has blockaded Lebanon and effectively isolated Gaza; if she can deliver a crippling blow to one of her enemies–and she can if she so desires–then her enemies will fracture if they do not outright fight each other.
Smash Hamas, and you discover the key to shattering Hezbollah. Crush Syria and Lebanon weakens, if it does not collapse into civil war against Hezbollah. Shatter Iran, and all of our enemies from the Taliban to the ‘insurgency’ to Hezbollah and Hamas are scattered in the shockwave.
Iran is not an easy kill, but it cannot match the IAF or the USAF, USN, or even the ‘modest’ USMC fighter wings. Establish air dominance, and Iran will suffer miserably regardless of its general excellence (which is debatable; it has many pluses, but these are relative to the sheer incompetence of its neighbors).
So if we go to war, we must establish a massive bombing campaign actively against the Iranian military–hopefully with Turkish and Iraqi help–and press hard on points which are weak under the Iranian control.
I am absolutely sure that the insurgents will show their absolute ass in a few days with a spectacular in Iraq which will definitively tie them to Iran and so force us into a corner, or an airstrike on our carriers in the Gulf (the mullahs are that fucking stupid–we have twelve more with nuclear weapons–waiting to go).
But if it is war they want, let us get to it. The Western mind contains horrors that no savage warriors of the east could ever imagine.
Anyone else think it’s odd that the Hizbullah guys are getting thrown under the bus? One of the things about a proxy war is that it can’t be advantageous to attack the proxy—it only works if “there’s no there, there.”
Sinn Fein could say, “well, there’s always the threat of violence from those IRA guys, but you can’t find them so why not talk to us?” Arafat could say, “I might have some influence on those Al-Aqsa guys, but I couldn’t point ‘em out on the street or anything.” The proxies need some deniability.
So, here’s the Hizzies doing their normal, “let’s swap dozens of our guys for a hostage, two corpses, some pocket lint and a piece of string”—when the Israelis go on one of their “what’s the use of having the IDF if you don’t use it?” trips. Predictably, the Hizzies start to go in risk avoidance/harassment/negotiation directions, like cockroaches when the light goes on. Out of the blue, then, some Iranians pop out with a medium-range missile that can reach from the PA to the sea with Israel in between—a true threat to the heartland.
Now, it’s obvious that the Hizzies were doing the population of Lebanon no particular favors back when they set up a presence there…but, hey—isn’t it always “bowb-your-buddy” week in the mideast? But it wouldn’t seem that the Iranians were contributing to the Hizzies’ position right then by playing the Queen of Spades onto the pile either.
Why would the Mullahs double-down on a hand when they weren’t even playing the same game? Why would they open the door to an Israeli-Hizzie war of extinction when their Hizzie buddies thought that they were just playing pattycake?
The only theory that immediately comes to my mind is that Iran actually feels vulnerable to regime change through sanctions, and would use up the Hizzies now rather than bargain them away under an “end-of-sanctions” arrangement. If this is correct, then the Hizbullah guys might currently be thinking, “why did the CARE package from Teheran have all these T-shirts with bullseye’s on ‘em?”
Unfortunately, the “use it or lose it” explanation just seems a little weak—even though the “why did the Iranian shoot a missile across the road?” part looks like it has potential.
Anyone else have the feeling that the Hizzies might have been shafted or double-crossed by their Iranian buds this time, by being painted as targets and dangled in front of the IDF? If so, anyone have a better explanation for why?
cthulhu,
I’m still trying to figure out what card game you’re playing, but if not “use it or lose it”, then the only other explanation that makes sense to me is a diversion. Not quite prescient enough to say where they would be diverting attention from… maybe Israel itself. Although that would imply assets already be in place. So maybe I’m just a wee bit paranoid. ;^)
Excellent post… just started reading blogs very recently (Think it went from Ann Coulter, to Sweetness and Light, to PW… now I’m as hooked as a crack addict in D.C., not Jersey.. D.C.!!)
Came in right after ProfessorLostHerMind’s ravings started and couldn’t look away. So, that’s ‘Civil Discourse on the Web’? And trolls… vegetable or mineral? Can’t figure it out yet.
Saudi Arabia no doubt knows Ahmadinnerjacket is serious about raising the 12th iman from the dead.
Speaking of wartime secrets, what the hell is David Lee Miller of Fox doing giving detailed information about the location of Israeli troops? He get’s shot at too during the live interview. Thank you Fox…
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Fox_crew_shot_at_in_Israel_0713.html
Stashui,
Well, the really interesting question is whether, given the Hamdan ruling, trolls ought to be protected under the Geneva Conventions. I am eagerly awaiting Greenwald’s deep thoughts on the issue.
I think that when there’s a firefight going on, the enemy already knows where the tanks are. Do you really think you can hide Merkavas tanks in Gaza, one of the most densely populated pieces of real estate on Earth?
Thanks Raw Story. That’s just so truthy!
tw: attack
Indeed.
That’s, like, a sexual reference, right? I remember sex.
Sorta.
Oh, God, not cheap tequila!