Skimming through Technorati, I came across a link to pw from metacomments—an Atrios fanboy site run by “Thersites” (whom I understand to be an English professor in addition to a proud EschaCon attendee)—in which Master Thersites affects his best bemused stance and suggests (glancingly, and without committing himself to a single refutation) that my understanding of interpretive theory is, well, not quite up to snuff:
And why I did this I don’t know, but I skimmed through the PDF “course notes” Jeff put up to demonstrate his scholarly chops. It’s pretty funny, really—wingnut-speak channeled through High Theory. Not quite as clownish as an Althouse production, but withal not particularly devoid of funny noses and floppy shoes. One summer’s day if I’m bored and full of daiquiris perhaps I’ll dismantle it for your delectation. Bleah…
This dodge is typical of many puffed-up academics (see his comments for additional examples) who in my experience grow fat and lazy on their paper laurels and use the threat of unleashing an intellectual thrashing to avoid having to, you know, give it a go.
Unsurprisingly, Thersites provides no link to those course notes. After all, why muddy up a perfectly pristine amen chorus by allowing your few sycophants to decide for themselves where such a noted paste-eater has gone wrong?
In truth, I first posted my course notes in a comment in 2002, as a gloss on a rather interesting philosophical (and philological) discussion in which I attempted to defend the linguistic turn from a few folks who were (somewhat understandably, I think) using the term “pomo” as a necessary pejorative; I never intended it, as Thersites erroneously notes, as a showcase “to demostrate” my “scholarly chops.” I try to be up front about my theoretical understandings and how I’ve reached them. Oddly, to Thersites, this is a sign of pretension; whereas his non-specific dismissals, which include no attendant rationale, are presented as proof of his superior erudition. Good work if you can get it.
But leaving that aside, what is interesting about that postmodernism post in retrospect is how seriously the commenters took the discussion. A snapshot of the blogosphere in its early days, before the poison kicked in: arguments were made; counterarguments offered; conclusions were drawn; and opinions either changed or did not, based largely on substance. The discussion easily crossed partisan lines and academic disciplines, and never devolved, after a great number of heated comments, into the kind of rancor with which “Thersites” begins and ends his “critique”.
Which, of course, isn’t really a critique at all, offering as it does nothing more substantial than the pompous suggestion that, should he decide to do so (and really, who DARE bother the Sultan of Tweed with such trifles!), Thersites is prepared to really unleash that blazing critical acumen of his—the one he chooses (for whatever reason) to hold close to the vest, at least until he throws back a few daiquiris, at which point the wisdom evidently flows like so much spiked limeade!
And it is for that reason that I’m asking Thersites to fire up the blender and “dismantle” my theoretics “for your delectation.” Once he’s done this, I will counter argue, and he can counter my counter, etc.
Who knows? Perhaps one of us will be forced to reconsider our personal theoretics. Which is what academic discussion used to be about. So too, readers might actually learn something.
As I informed Thersites in his comments, what he calls “wingnut-speak channeled through High Theory” was written well before I’d ever even considered voting Republican. In fact, it was written at a time when, outside of a few specific policy debates, I would have considered myself almost entirely apolitical.
But looking back on it, it is quite clear that my politics were being shaped by my understanding of language—which is to say that I believe classical liberalism can be said to flow from a particular understanding of how language works, while “progressivism” is borne of a different (and competing) understanding. Those of you who read this site often enough are familiar with the outlines of that argument.
So I welcome the discussion. Whether or not Thersites does—it is just as likely he is interested in nothing more than fatted preening and easy, sophistic dismissals (or perhaps, subsequent to this post, he’ll be too embarrassed to be seen drinking diaquiris, thus rendering his superpowers impotent)—remains to be seen.
We’re back to the chicken or the egg and which came first discussion again, are we? Peace
Don’t hold your breath.
Bring it on, Mr. Puffed Up Academic (PUA). Guys like PUA are a dime a dozen, and too stupid to know they were obsolete the moment they settled into their career track. Playing cute games with language does not keep the trains, trucks, and planes moving. PUAs are the very epitome of total uselessness, the academic circle hand choir that sings only for itself.
I came first. That’s why I’m layin’ here smokin’ a Camel. Bitch.
That would require, you know, thinking, so solly, Jeff. Because I love the intellect, I must scorn ‘intellectuals’.
BTW, What kind of dumb muthafucker goes to a chickenhawk-filled blog of warmongering warmongers and spouts off ‘peace’? We want war, Imhotep. Politely strap-on your assless chainmail so I can ram an 18ft sarissa through your guts to the ground behind you.
:::snort::::
Sounds like Thersites is merely of the Professor Gilderoy Lockhart mold.
I hope he takes you up on it. It may prove to be an interesting discussion. Although, I hope the both of you keep in mind that some of us (me) may have a hard time following such a high brow discussion.
Verc, Mona took your challenge on this thread, might want to check it out.
Once upon a time, English Professors loved books, and loved writing and talking about books. But that can be hard work. It requires many hours of hard study.
But then along came theory, and presto, books became obsolete. Shakespeare? Piffle. Give us Derrida.
By and large, English Professors make crappy theoreticians.
I know, BMoe.
I saw and read and reread it, and laughed and laughed. Then I wanted to write a post congratulating the field of trogothletes for an impressive fourth quarter showing–I knew they had it in them
–but the words just didn’t quite convey the awed appreciation for their efforts.
Jeff and PW community, we are in the company of trolling Gods. Like actus, so sure that there is wrong doing done, but then requesting more information on a secret program when it is shoved down his throat that he cannot describe it one way or another. Or Mona, on the Christobanian Con-servative Cult of Bush (C3Bush) crackup which is roiling the right blogosphere like Michael Moore getting freaky with the Typing Telephone Pole, the servers shaking and quavering with revulsion and fear and the kinetic energy of a heard of buffalo.
And then there is Imhotep who happens to be just dumb enough to not realize how fucking stupid he actually is.
Bravo, gentlemen and ladies of Mordor! You trolls are astounding!
Where is the fun in that? If you’re not going to dig in and mix it up, just shut up!
Seriously? The guy drinks daiquiris? WTF
Te be fair to PUA, I’d drink retsina cut with Prestone if it was on offer free, so I can’t rule out having drunk a daiquiri at some time in my life… but there’s a difference between that and drinking diaiquiris because whiskey tastes “icky.”
But OH NO! A real academic, coming here and making long posts? What would this board look like with long posts? It’s unprecendented! Why, we’d have no idea what to do with it…
It’s just amazing to me how fucking humorless these guys can be, both generally and then especially when they’re trying to be all droll and witty. Their schtick comes off as the kind of whiny screediness you hear from the pseudo-nerd who got his ass beaten in the bathroom for lunch money on the same day he missed the cut for the debating team. Is all.
Or maybe I’m just too stupid to appreciate the humor value in it.
BECAUSE OF THE PASTE-EATING!
Old Dad  Shoot, by and large English Professors make lousy English Professors…
Having now looked at his site, I don’t think the “professor” would have much to offer above sneers. Too bad.
I’m ready to go, got all the spirits ready too. The perfessor said something about needing “little umbrellas” and took off out the door, dunno when he’ll be back.
It is somewhat fascinating the degree to which one’s view of linguistics underpins political belief.
It seems to be hard to be an intentionalist and not be a conservative or classical liberal (maybe it’s the idea of people making “choices,” or the sovereign individual’s right to own the meaning of what he says), and equally difficult to be a leftist without embracing the vocabularistic set of rules of identity politics (in which identity groups get to decide what you meant when you said things about them, so that identical statements from different people can be construed as bigoted or not depending on which benefits the construer).
And don’t even get me started on Chomsky.
“One summer’s day if I’m bored and full of daiquiris perhaps I’ll dismantle it for your delectation.”
When I read comments like that they generally sound like the Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons.
Very interesting that Mr. Sultan of Tweed calls the content of Jeff’s notes “wingnut speak filtered through High Theory”. And then turns around and in the comments says that Jeff’s name-dropping of who he was voting for during the time his notes were written have no bearing upon the actual content of the notes.
See, as soon as one appears to have sympathies with non-progressive ideologies does the content suddenly become worthy of qualitative commentary (“wingnut speak”), even years after it was written … but if the bona fides can be presented to show quite the opposite, well then those are unimportant.
It would be nice for him to decend from his ivory tower, dirty himself and school us pleebs. Maybe I’ll go play some Halo while I wait for the day…
I wouldn’t worry about the professor he won’t do anything, Leftists are generally worthless and weak.
How many current university professors have served in the military?
Of those, how many have served in combat operations?
Some would say that they are too smart for that… implying that smart people don’t get caught up in the BushCheneyHalliburtonExxon scheme to kill, tortue and destroy.
But the difficulty and intellectual rigor requires in the curriculum at our military academies far exceeds that of a Women’s Studies major with a minor in Lesbian Lit.
Ward Churchill wouldn’t last a semester… even without the guns. Ditto that knucklehead Almond.
One of my favorite customers was a Naval Academy grad who also had degrees from MIT, Cal Tech. He sat on the board at Cal Tech.
So the difference isn’t one of intelligence… what’s missing?
Maybe:
Courage
Patriotism
Honor…?
I think Darwin’s work describes most male American university professor well… beta males who self aggrandize, adorning themselves with the false plumage of “intellect” (false because the premise is self validating: I am smarter than you because I say so) then strutting in their fakery in an attempt to draw attention to themselves. Perhaps they’ll bedazzle a partner or two.
I’ll use a quote from Michael Stanwick to describe the reaction of these professors to the military…
“It was classic beta male jealousy, straight out of Primate Psychology 101. “
I think you need to smack that Thersites fellow across the face with your manly organ. That’ll show him, the tea-sipping, left-wing, commie, anti-American bastard.
To me, it’s no contest. Klonopin trumps a daiquiri every time. You don’t even need high theory to figure that out.
Thersites.
You just can’t make this shit up.
Now, Now Steve G,
There were plenty of academics I ran into that were fine intellects, and downright good human beings (Geoffrey Parker, John Guilmartin, etc.) – they didn’t need to be in the military to be sharp. Of course, they were prodigious writers, researchers and had top notch work ethics (Parker learned how to scuba dive so he could go down in the North Sea to see the wrecks of the Armada – he did a book and a BBC series on it. How’s that for seeing your subject matter first hand?!)
Quite a pity such professors are far and few between – but those gentlemen sure taught me a thing or two – and I think it paid off when I was handed a 110 square kilometer area with 300,000 people, in two different provinces of Afghanistan and told to “make sure everything is OK”. Big Picture time, for sure.
Jeff,
I just went over, out of curiosity, to Thersites’ site. Lots of snark and posing. However, no real substance. Certainly nothing that would pass as any original thinking and most telling, no profile. What can you say about this progressive pussyboy badass wannabe, when he’s too afraid/ashamed to even put his real name out there?
I won’t take this daiquiri-bashing sitting down. There was a time before various yupsters turned daiquiris into an effeminate frozen ice cream drink that it has become (probably what the dear professor is drinking) when it was a drink with substance. A true daiquiri is nothing but rum with a bit of lime juice and cane sugar thrown in to smooth it out a bit. It was invented by an American engineer in Cuba in the early 1900’s. AND it has a military history too – first brought to the US by way of the Army Navy City Club.
Hi Major John..
Notice I weenied out with a “most of…” hmmm isn’t that the exact behavior I just criticized?
My bad
I’ll bet those fine people (and to be judged “fine” they don’t have to be pro war or even “support the troops” folks they just need to be intellectually honest and open) I’ll bet those fine people you describe would be shouted down in almost (another weaseling “almost”) any faculty forum today. They’d be shunned and their academic credentials would be dishonored.
LMAO! Dorkafork is on to something I think, read that blog thinking about the Comic Book Guy and it is most entertaining:
Goodness, Thersites…
Did you catch the daquiris slur?
I believe you just had your manhood questioned by a man with no job.
Now THAT’S chutzpah!
I believe we just had a Progressive!(TM) assert that manhood is contingent on having a job, and raising a child and writing is not a job.
Now THAT is good ole southern chauvinism and bigotry, my dear patrick. The klavern would be so proud.
Thersites gives homos a bad name. Geesh, what ever happened to funny, smart, talented homos who were good dancers? Now we get this.
Hell, even heteros should have something to offer before posting on the internets.
In the good old days, we knew a talented perv like Truman Capote from your average idiot..
Oscar Wilde…you talk about your talented funny homo…
Thersites….bah.
Thersites….bah.
yeah.
He’s queering the deal for everyone.
Daiquiris rock. There’s no doubt. I just question the judgment of admitting it publicly when you look and act like Thersites. I mean, he went to EschaCon, for Chrissakes. And took pictures!
But don’t get me wrong: If ever get a job, I’m going to make me a big batch of frozen strawberry daiquiris and party for freakin’ days, man!
Scotch Daiquiris:
1 qt. White Label
2 qts. strawberries
1 Bag Rold Gold Pretzels
Directions: Smoke a fattie. Eat the pretzels. Throw away the strawberries. Drink the Scotch neat.
What?
patrick, me boyo
Leave aside it was Thirsty himself that mentioned the daiquiris but is this the place where to really want to denigrate stay-at-home parents…on Mother’s day no less?
put some ice on it, cabanaboy
Darleen  A small cube.
The “Sultan of Tweed”?
I’ll get to your notes when it suits me.
1 qt. White Label?
Old Dad, I tried that one time.
It was a three day hangover.
A three day Scotch hangover.
My Glaswegian sister-in-law is a bad influence.
I’ll get to your notes when it suits me.
Uh huh. I would have done that before pronouncing on them, but I’m unconventional that way.
Incidentally, I left a comment over on your site that never showed up.
Letting you know in case there was a glitch or something.
I have two book reviews and a book to work on. I also have kids. I’ll get to your grad level notes when I can. Sometime this summer.
You want me to look at the notes directly, or should I take into account all this stuff about who you voted for and your advisor and the heady days of the old-timey blogosphere? I am perfectly happy to draw the intentionalist line wherever it amuses you.
Sorry about the posting problems. Blogger is mad at me because I am such an urbanite homo, leaving poor Old Dad to make do with his Deliverance fantasies. Please do take good care of him.
Boy, I bet Thersites will be surprised when he finds out that this is the character he named himself after! He really should’ve read the Iliad before he chose that name, huh?
Jesus Christ, you’re stupid.
And you know, as a general rule, it’s a good idea to proclaim victory – whether rhetorical or military – after you’ve actually won. A word to the wise.
I’ll be following future developments with the greatest interest.
My my, how BUSY you are! Two book reviews AND a book, you say? Well then, by all means, don’t waste your time on li’l old insignificant me. I’m but a lowly apprentice boy, hardly worth the time of someone who has reached so lofty an academic perch as you!
Although I can’t help but remark that had you not frittered away that glorious three-day weekend at EschaCon, attending seminars and waiting for the chance to have Duncan Black sign your breast, you’d have plenty of time to dismantle me for the delectation of your readership. Withal. Alas and alack.
Still, I can’t help but notice that you found the time for at least some extracurricular activity—like, for instance, putting up a post that pronounces on something that you’re now claiming you haven’t time to look into.
You probably just knew my “notes” (will talk later about why you chose to put that in quotation marks—is it that you are suspicious of their noteyness?) wer garbage, though, right?—I mean, coming from a wingnut, and being “grad level” and all. Which, tell me: had I taken that Italian exam to finish the PhD instead of having a child, would that have magically made the grad-level notes into “professional” level notes? If it helps, many of my friends from the program completed the PhD and are now working in academia, and they wouldn’t dismiss my academic work so casually.
And they’re liberals, too! Imagine!
Anyway, I had a feeling this is where we’d end up. Me, I’m working on a book myself, doing a weekly radio show (and will soon be part of a weekly podcast), and I’ve been commissioned to write a screenplay this summer.
Granted. Not as august as literary book reviews, but still, you play the hand you’re dealt, right? And to think: I was willing to put in the time. Will I never learn? If you want to be taken seriously as an academic, you must insist that you are too busy with other projects to discuss anything academic. You must learn to look harried!
I really must buy myself one of those little notebooks to jot all these things down. Remind me, would you? When you’re done with your grand endeavors and can fit it in?
Thirsty writes:
I’ll get to your grad level notes when I can. Sometime this summer.
Does self-parody get more ironic?
‘course, I’m not holding my breath that the agoraphobic Thirsty, who probably can’t hold his own outside of the faculty cocktail party circuit, will ever do more than snicker like a 7th grade rah-rah Valley girl with her crew at the kids who do the work and get the grades.
I can’t rule out having drunk a daiquiri at some time in my life… but there’s a difference between that and drinking diaiquiris because whiskey tastes “icky.â€Â
From Invasion, USA (1952):
[Doughy visiting San Francisco businessman George has just walked into a New York bar with local hottie Carla.]
Carla (to bartender): I’ll have a scotch on the rocks.
George: Scotch! Beats me how you New Yorkers can drink that stuff. Tastes like medicine to me. (to bartender) I’ll have a daiquiri.
Carla: Isn’t that kind of a sissy drink?
George: I just like the cracked ice.
Bartender: A scotch, and a cracked ice.
George: [makes unhappy face]
(This is from memory, so it may not be 100% accurate. Later in the movie, studly he-man whiskey-drinker Vince takes Carla away from shirking girly-man George. Then they all die. Sort of.)
You’re the one who put up the huge freaking PDF file as a defense of your scholarship. Silly me, I thought you’d expect someone to have the time to fucking read it in detail before really blasting at it—as my skimmming of it tempts me to do.
I have a job and a family. If your post at my place was serious, you can stop being a dick right about now. Because, no, I am not going to prioritize giving your notes a serious read at the expense of the stuff I get paid for or will help my career or will make my kids happy.
Dork.
Because, no, I am not going to prioritize giving your notes a serious read
Boy, can you just hear the feet drumming the floor and the high reguister of voice when reading that hissy fit!
Thirsty, you not much more than entertaining in underlying the usual “character” value of “progressives.”
Professor,
There is a way to get paid to do this. Pick some arbitrary amount that it would be worth to you and put up a fundraiser on your blog. When the goal is reached then read the notes and start an actual discussion with Goldstein. I bet you’d even get some donations from regular readers here.
Wow! This has been just too entertaining. First we have this…
You can just feel the superciliousness dripping off of the words.
Then our boy, Thirsty begins to grasp that perhaps his gratuitous slap at our host was a mistake.
Feel the nervousness in the later comment.
I’ll bet he broke a nail typing that.
Now see our boy in full retreat! You can just sense the mounting panic at the realization that he’s stumbled into a group of adults and his smirky little juvenile putdowns won’t cut it!
Gee, you certainly had time to type your original post, but now you’re too busy to respond and articulate your points? You’re afraid/ashamed to use your real name and now you hide behind your ‘work’ and god God boy, your own kids even? Tell me, did that original load of crap you posted make your kids happy?
Boy, if you weren’t for real, nobody could make you up, withal you’re just too pathetic.
Grow up and get a life.
Hey – if you want somebody to analyze your notes, why don’t you sign up for a class and pay somebody to do it?
And if it’s at a professional level, then send it into a journal to be published as an article.
And Thers, you really shouldn’t feel obligated to analyze class notes.
What are you going to do? Tell us if he has a thesis?
It’s obvious that Goldstein didn’t want to respond to the content of your post.
And Goldstein – do you actually have a question about your class notes for Thers to answer?
Or do you just want a free edit?
And if they’re at the professional level, why haven’t you published them in a academic journal?
I wouldn’t count on Therasites to be a scrupulous debater (“Fun & Games”):
That’s just lovely.
geoduck:
Content?
-So, you think Jeff is the one avoiding a debate?
For someone who is too busy to make even one substantive criticism, he seems to have plenty of time to come here and whine.
I do believe we’ve reached a ‘tipping point’ for the effectiveness of “progressive†political action. Our self-proclaimed intellectual betters can’t even muster an argument about essentially unknowable concepts. They all join together to fling schoolyard insults but not one of them will step up and debate Jeff on this theory bullshit. I’m not all that interested in academic theory but I’ll pledge 100â€â€$25â€â€to anybody that will go toe-to-toe with Jeff. Geez, there isn’t even a correct answer to this stuff. You just have to show a solid understanding of the material.
This is how the Reality-Based Community works? Do “progressives†hate anyone who doesn’t share their political feelings so much that simple insults will stop their intellectual curiosity dead in its tracks?
runninrebel wrote to geoduck2:
Right. Jeff didn’t meekly accept the criticism of his betters, and instead demanded Thirsty support his claims. In leftoid world, that means he’s avoiding debate since debate to them means those who don’t agree with them are supposed to sit down, shut up and be lectured on the error of their ways.
CHICKENSCHOLAR!!!!
Thirsty, you’re positively slaying me.
Or at least paid more attention, maybe it wasn’t in the Cliff Notes, I dunno.
Seems like an appropriate moniker so far.
I wasn’t aware I had proclaimed victory, or was even in a battle. But if I am, lame ass responses like yours are great for the morale of the troops, I must say.
A 6’5” ex-college football player bumps into Thersites and then puts his hand on his shoulder:
6’5” guy: I apologize. I didn’t see you there. I’m sorry.
Thersites: Unhand me brute!! Count yourself lucky. If I were not called to quickly go over there to make my children happy, I would give you a sound thrashing!
6’5” guy: Whoa! What’s up with that dude? And who makes their kids wear ascots?
”…and Thersites folds the losing hand…”
“A good lay down Mike, but you have to ask yourself what he was doing playing those cards in the first place.”
“Right you are Vince. I suspect it’s because he’s a pompous windbag unused to meeting with resistance when he launches into his usual baseless pontification.”
Heh. Unsuction; micropenis. Double heh.
Shorter Mona:
-I lost again. You bastards;
-You guys are such bastards;
-See ya! You bastards;
-But I’ll be watching!
You bastards;
-’Cause teh McChimpy is going down!1!! No, really. Misfeasance! Bastard.
What a shrill little beeyotch…
BECAUSE OF THE SPYING!!!
BMoe,
Oh my, oh my.
Read the Iliad and then think about it some more.
Shorter Theres:
Just give ‘em to Hilary, then grow a pair and say something useful. That’ll make the kids happy, trust me. Well, happier than tweed and daquiris.
“-So, you think Jeff is the one avoiding a debate?”
Yes, I do.
Did anybody here actually read the post?
Patrick O’Brian described Thersites perfectly in so many of his characters: clearly a lifetime of schoolmastering utterly unfits a man for the company of adults.
Shorter Jeff:
“I’ll kick your intellectual ass!”
Don’t let me miss this.
The “content” was that Jeff missed an (incomplete) literary reference.
Therefore, he is a stupid poo-poo head, or something.
That type of game got old for me first year of grad school. For others, it’s still fun. De gustibus non disputandumst.
Geoduck, if you have a point, make it.
If you don’t, fuck off.
I think we should cut Thersides a break here.
I think we wrongly assumed he choose his nom de keyboard because of the original Thersides’ insolent verbal attack upon the king… when he really choose the name “Thersides” because in the end Thersides was a wanker of epic proportions… the gold standard of wankers by which all other mythological whiners and criers shall be forevermore measured.
So ease up on the guy…… before he starts crying
geoduck —
What am I avoiding exactly? Because if you’re interested in my answer to Patrick, I wrote a response to him and put it on his site on May 4th:
I’m not sure what you are getting at with the rest of your comments here: 1) under discussion are course notes (or, if you prefer Thersites’ characterization, “course notes”). So sending them off to a scholarly journal would be silly.
2) I didn’t bring it up. Did you read THIS post? I first posted these things in July of 2002, in a very specific context. I have since used them to allow people to see where I’m coming from when I discuss interpretation and intentionalism.
Thersites brought up in passing how he would, had he world enough and time, dismantle my critical assumptions for the delectation of people like you.
So—and follow closely now, because you seem to be losing your way completely about here—I asked Thersites to go ahead and do the dismantling he’s already suggested he would do were he sunning his pasty bulk with a pitcher of rum-rich strawberry Slurpee.
But alas, he’s a busy man. So we’re just going to have to take his word for it that, were he really hammered on crushed ice, fruit, and distilled sugar cane, he would DISMANTLE me.
Oh. And he wants me to stop being a dick—this, though I didn’t mention him or link him until he made his crack about my “course notes” being clownish.
Keep defending him here if you must. But from what I can gather, he’d be better served if you offered to baby sit for him or, I dunno, help out with some chores. He is simply SWAMPED at the moment.
geoduck blithers:
““-So, you think Jeff is the one avoiding a debate?â€Â
Yes, I do.
Did anybody here actually read the post?”
I did. And Jeff’s response. And Thersites’ various posts here. And the ones’ on his blog. And you are projecting and/or stupid and/or lying. Thersites backpedaled as fast as he could.
“Oh my, oh my.
Read the Iliad and then think about it some more.”
If you’re his hired gun, he wasted his money. Read the Iliad? Have you? I rather doubt it since there is no character more unpalatable in his customs, background, dishonor or cowardice than Thersites. Perhaps it’s not all that odd that the modern Thersites would focus on a modern day progressive interpretation of the actions of Homer’s Thersites. Perhaps he thinks that Homer’s Thersites was ‘speaking truth to power’ in opposing the war in council? You know, along the lines of ‘How heroic. He opposed Bush/Agamemnon’s unjust war for oil/booty (little play on words there) fought at the behest of his Haliburton/Menelaus puppetmasters (the Haliburton/Menelaus analogy is weak, but you get my meaning).’ That would be in character for an Atriette.
I rather expect that our modern day Thersites had in mind the more sympathetic character of the same name in Shakespeare’s play ‘Troilus and Cressida’ when he took his moniker. Read Troilus and Cressida and then think about it some more.
Nonetheless, I suggest that Homer’s characterization of Thersites as someone whose “head was full of obscenities, teeming with rant” is closer to the mark.
Jackass.
BMoe,
Read the Iliad and THINK about it.
(After all, I thought you were interested in literary theory. Try to do some 7th grade analysis here.)
My, geoduck is just so brilliantly vague!
It’s as if it has some profound wisdom that is simply out of the grasp of such heathens as ourselves. Either that, your he’s just another bilous lefty with a mouthful of shit, looking for a place to spit it out.
Whatever.
(HINT: Yes, it is a reference to Homer’s Iliad.)
By the way, what does having a newborn have to do with Jeff not taking a language exam?
Was his baby sick?
Keep defending him here if you must. But from what I can gather, he’d be better served if you offered to baby sit for him or, I dunno, help out with some chores. He is simply SWAMPED at the moment.
I’m sure he does need a baby sitter. After all, he has a beautiful infant baby boy AND a toddler AND a six year old. They are all wonderful & cute.
However, I’m sure with it being the end of the semester and all, Thers is grading papers!
(Didn’t you do this when you were in grad school? Grade papers and exams at the end of the school year? It’s the end of Spring Semester – remember? People are swamped right now.)
Yet, you want some sort of an essay in response on MOTHER’S DAY.
Obviously, you are not serious in asking for a thoughtful response.
You thought wrong. I am mildly interested in linguistic theory, could give a shit about literary theory. I have read the Illiad, it was several years ago and I don’t have a clear recollection of it. The name Thersites did ring a bell, so I googled it and the links above were the first couple that popped up, which I thought were pretty damn funny and appropriate given the circumstance. The Thersites I remember, although he was not a particularly memorable character, is the one discribed in those links and by just passing through above.
I don’t plan on reading the Illiad again anytime soon, and I don’t like being patronized by sanctimonious internet twits. If you have something to add, or a different interpretation of the Illiad, then let’s hear it. Otherwise, go fuck yourself.
Of course it’s the same Thersites from Homer’s Iliad!
Aye, yi, yi.
What’s particularly noteworthy about Thersites is that his lines are metrically shaky. Homer describes him as “ametros” – unlike the high-born characters, he doesn’t seem able to speak in the proper dactylic hexameter.
His appearance and his diction are linked – he is the opposite of the proper hero: phsyically stunted and ugly, verbally incompetent.
It’s no accident that Odysseus is the one who shuts him up (by hitting him with the king’s scepter!). Odysseus is *also* phsyically unheroic – bent, shambly gait – but he is the ultimate master of speech. It’s best to have the proper physical habitus *and* to be master of the hexameter – without either, in Homer’s world, you won’t get anywhere at all.
Is that the sort of thing you meant, geoduck? Or were you just sneering and preening?
Pop quiz, hotshot: what Greek work is *my* screen name from? No Googlin’ allowed.
“(HINT: Yes, .)”
Well, I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
I really find that hard to believe. One would think that a professor of english would have been exposed to the Iliad at some point in his matriculations and appreciated the stark contrast that Homer was painting in his Thersites’ unsavory characterization, role, and ignominious end.
If he did take his moniker in a reference to Homer’s Thersites, it simply makes the Attriette Thersites a bigger jackass than I thought. He might as well have taken Grima Wormtongue as his handle. Certainly no less sympathetic as a character reference and there would be less confusion recognizing the connection.
Clam up, geoduck.
geoduck = thirsty’s sock puppet?
(Either that or his mom).
I’m not sure what you are getting at with the rest of your comments here: 1) under discussion are course notes (or, if you prefer Thersites’ characterization, “course notes”). So sending them off to a scholarly journal would be silly.
But why are the course notes under discussion?
Thers already gave his opinion of them on his blog. It sounds like you want a longer response.
In fact, you are demanding a longer response.
And you are perfectly welcome to submit your literary articles to academic journals. They are blind reviewed, so they wouldn’t know your creds when they read your articles.
JPThrough, I’ve always assumed the internet’s Thersites (heh – like “TV’s” Frank) uses the name because he sees himself as “Speaking truth to power.”
Here’s my own attempt at translation of Homer’s description of him (from the third edition of Monro & Allen’s OCT):
“The others sat, they settled down in their seats.
But Thersites alone still crowed out, the unmeasured speaker
[I was wrong – it’s “ametroepes,” not “ametros”. Meaning “not-measured-verse”]
Who knew words in his mind, many and disordered,
Vain, yea, not in accordance with order,
To wrangle with the princes,
But whatever he might say, became a joke to the Argives.
HE WAS THE MOST SHAMEFUL MAN who came to Ilion.”
He says his piece, Odysseus whaps him with the scepter, and they all shut up.
exposed to the Iliad at some point in his matriculations and appreciated the stark contrast that Homer was painting in his Thersites’ unsavory characterization, role, and ignominious end.
Why don’t you people understand this?
Hello? Irony, anybody? Not taking oneself too seriously?
I cannot believe this.
sorry – I meant, “they all laugh at him.”
Here’s what puzzles me, geoduck:
Odysseus tells Thersites, “STFU when your betters are speaking.”
Which seems to be, more or less, what Thersites is telling Jeff.
Oh the IRony!
I too have slaved in the mines of Theory. Unlike many lefty bloggers, I don’t think this gives me any special insights into politics.
I don’t believe it either. If the point was my misunderstanding Thersites wonderful sense of irony, why in the Hell would you keep admonishing me to reread the Iliad?
The only irony I see here is that a pompous PROGRESSIVE!(TM) could name himself after a snivelling pinhead who is opposed to war for all the wrong reasons and think there is something ironic about it.
“Hello? Irony, anybody? Not taking oneself too seriously? “
Oh fer krissakes. What an asinine attempt to recast your ignorance as nuance.
There is no irony in this. You did not know what you were talking about when you started on this, hadn’t the remotest idea of what the character Thersites represented in the Iliad, and do not what you are talking about now.
Back when I was thinking of taking a handle for commenting on blogs some time back, I thought I’d choose something that would indicate I don’t take myself too seriously. I thought it would make perfect sense to take one that brings to mind a malformed, stuttering, cowardly, and coarse person that no one liked. Just for the irony. It was already taken by an Atriette fanboy though.
Let’s hear from Thersites (that is if geoduck is not Thersites not taking himself too seriously). If you indeed took the moniker of Thersites based on the character and characterization of same in the Iliad, be so kind as to explain the basis of whatever irony you felt this would express.
Geoduck —
Thersites providing nothing at all concrete about my course notes (which, by the way, are not an essay. So again, why bring up sending them to an academic journal?), but instead just dismissed them as clownish after admitting that he’d “skimmed” them and bragging that, should he have world enough and time (that’s Marvell, in case you missed the allusion the first time), he’d “dismantle” them. You accept this as a valid and reasonable criticsm.
Which is what marks you as a blind sycophant and an anti-intellectual sock puppet.
I don’t think I “demanded” Thersites read my notes closely and respond on Mother’s Day. I just said I welcome his offering something concrete to back his (as yet) unsubstantiated conclusions about them.
I used phrases like “once he’s done” and “I welcome the discussion”—phrases that your mind translates to demands that such a busy and important scholar as Thersites drop what he’s doing (which includes commenting here and posting endless snark on his flowery-tongued blog) and come forth NOW with a dissertation refuting the conclusions I draw from my study of interpretive theory.
That is a willful misreading of events. Which, I take it, is standard with folks like you.
And no, my baby wasn’t sick. But I was his primary care giver. And I decided I’d rather stay home with him than take on an academic career. So I never went back to finish the language requirement. My choice. I’m happy with it.
Because otherwise instead of throwing a ball with my kid today, I’d be grading student papers. Which would just suck, frankly.
Ok! Ok! You all are right!
You’ve figured out that Thersites had NO IDEA that Thersites was a character in the Iliad.
It’s a TOTAL SURPRISE!
He just made up that name himself.
—
Please, I hope some of you read the Iliad so this wasn’t a total waste of time on my part.
“The lady doth protest too much, methinks.”
And no, my baby wasn’t sick. But I was his primary care giver. And I decided I’d rather stay home with him than take on an academic career.
I’m glad you had a healthy baby. Best wishes to your family. (I thought a hospital crisis might have kept you from taking your exam.)
Anyways – it sure sounded like you were being snarky about Thers being “swamped.”
As you were busy with your baby, I’m sure you can understand that his priority is his family (including his newborn) rather then writing an essay in response to your class notes.
(And your commenters seem to expect Thers to respond RIGHT NOW.)
geoduck … you truly are an ignorant bitch.
Think about it.
“Please, I hope some of you read the Iliad”
Wow. The condescension never stops.
In case my comments didn’t make it clear, gooey-duck:
I *have* read the Iliad; several times in English, and at least once all the way through in the original. (In fact, Thersites – the character, not the blogger – will be making a cameo appearance in my dissertation.)
Here’s where I differ from y’all: I don’t think my academic cred.s make me
a) a better person
b) more knowledgeable about stuff outside my area of specialization.
(although I must say, I’m more of an Odyssey man.
Tragedy tomorrow … comedy tonite!)