From Terry Hastings, via email:
The Duke Lacrosse saga continues to play out in the media. When guilt or innocence is finally established, will the media examine its own roll in shaping the direction the story has taken? Thomas Sowell asks some hard questions.
With respect to the mindset that some blacks have re guilt innocence of the Lacrosse players —
According to Newsweek, the young man at NCCU said that he wanted to see the Duke students prosecuted, “whether it happened or not. It would be justice for things that happened in the past.”
With respect to the triumph of group rights over individual rights —
Today, this young man at NCCU represents the culmination of a new racist trend promoted by current black “leaders” to make group entitlements paramount, including seeking group revenge rather than individual justice in courts of law.
With respect to tapping into the political power derived from identity politics–
Tragically, the way the Duke case is being handled, it looks as if District Attorney Michael Nifong is pandering to these ugly feelings. Legal experts seem baffled as to why he is proceeding in the way that he is because it is hard to explain legally.
It is not hard to explain politically, however. The District Attorney may well owe his recent election victory to having tapped into the kinds of racial resentments expressed by the young man at North Carolina Central University.
Our media makes much fuss over its roll in asking hard questions. When the facts are finally known, will the hard questions begin?
Honestly? I am increasingly despairing, Terry.
What terrifies me about this incident is that group-identity politics, the “progressives’” belief in their own moral superiority, and a complete dismissal of all the requirements of objective justice have fused into a single Cerberus of tyranny. What gives me hope is that today there are a sufficient number of Theseus-voices in the New Media that the horror can be given its proper coloration—and that the traditionally unengaged might well rally to our side.
The Collective sure has a way of using loaded words like racist, sexist, homophobe, Islamophobe to emotionally blackmail democratic ideals like truth, justice, reason and compassion.
We’re already there, Jeff. But that’s with gender politics. Is the racial version coming? Hopefully, the rational black voices that are finally begining to grace the public debate will continue to expose the bankruptcy of their “liberal” bretheren.
Damn it, Jeff, what part of this don’t you understand? I mean, these young men (cretins all) are wealthy, privileged AND white. Of course they are guilty….they are just trying to determine what they are guilty of.
If nothing else they are guilty of being WHITE…and wearing 100 point, all cotton, pressed, button down collared shirts.
Oh…and also guilty for having the mendacity to proclaim their innocence in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. It really is easy for anyone with a brain (and appreciation for your “Robert Byrd” art) to see that they are, indeed, WHITE.
Lookey, lookey, lookey, which gutter did rls crawl himself out of this Sunday morning to troll that fetid garbage all over the place?
They proclaimed their innocence in the face of overwhelming evidence in support of their claims. Therefore, we must go to the First rule of Conspiracy theories and say that lack of evidence is in fact evidence of the conspiracy.
So good luck with that and your blind Bush-Kultist belief that all rich white kids–undoubtedly of the Legacy system–are innocent even while caught red-phallused raping six-year old handicapped deaf black boys. Meh.
The guy directly responsible for the horrors and deaths of Katrina was just re-elected mayor of New Orleans and will preside over the spending of gazillions of our dollars in the erstwhile attempt to rebuild the city. Of course, Landrieu’s victory would have been no better as only the color of their skin distinguished the two candidates.
If after the well documented corruption of the ruling junta in LA didn’t bring forward a reform candidate, then it’s a lost cause and there can be no hope for N.O.
Hmmm.
1. Uhhh. Vercingetorix. I think rls was being sarcastic.
2. Anybody else wonder why this rape trial isn’t going to happen until spring of 2007? Isn’t 12+ months a bit excessive for a rape trial that doesn’t involve anyone being dead or missing?
This isn’t the Natalie Holloway case after all. The accuser is known, and alive. The accused are known, indicted and all are available. The evidence to go to trial had to be already collected otherwise with what did the DA get his indictments?
So what eactly is the rationale for waiting 12 months before going to trial? Particularly since these three young men are still under suspension by Duke and would be ineligible to continue their education in the fall 2006 school year.
And, as with gender politics, it’s all about the fucking money:
Social law is a failure of justice. Which is why so many love it so much…
But…but…but..they’re…WHITE!!!!!
Er..ed. So was Verc.
the self-appointed progressive elite has reached the point where they no longer even attempt to justify their arguments logically
Liberals don’t have ideas, they have an agenda.
That agenda is “be in power.”
This is what happens when you get in the way of a Democrat running for election.
After this blows up in his face, Nifong should be removed & disbarred.
Hmmmm.
Sigh. It’s hard to tell anymore.
There’s an incredibly weird idea that I didn’t realize was so widely held before I saw it independently repeated by a quite a few commentators on this case, and it goes a little something like this:
Because the players were white and the strippers were black, the standard pay-to-see-her-naked cash-for-titillation exchange could never have been intended, because white-male-on-black-female sexual desire is an essential impossibility; the only conceivable exchange between WM audience and BF performer is a Rite of Spring-y humiliation/immolation dance with rape-as-ritual-murder at its end. Jesse Jackson even asserted, unchallenged on national television, that white-male-on-black-female sexual desire (which doesn’t exist) is “illegal.”
This is all, to put it mildly, news to me. And to about 100% of white men. And to untold millions of, it turns out, crazily misinvested porno capital. And to black strippers.
And I don’t get it.
(By which I mean that I do get it, but I’m pretending I don’t, because I’m tired of repeating myself.)
Well, many in the black community wanted OJ to get off, regardless of his guilt, in order to “make up” for past oppression by “The Man,” so this is just taking it one step further.
Reminds me of the feminist’s continuing attempt to make a woman’s claims paramount in a he said/she said rape accusation.
Identity Groups Uber Alles.
Verc is feisty today.
Anyway;
I think our society has become to civil. Imagine how much better a world we’d live in if the reporter had just bitch-slapped this budding Nazi on the spot?
But, in the spirit of “trying to be understanding of the other point of view,” I can only encourage the authorities to prosecute this bozo for violation of civil rights, even though he hasn’t done anything but shoot off his filthy pathetic wannabe-thug mouth.
Of course, since what he said is explicity racist hate-speech, I expect the campus authorities will be expelling him forthwith.
Or putting him in charge of the sensitivity training.
Okay, someone turn the irony off and help me out here. The last I heard about this story(I’ve not followed it.), DNA evidence cleared the accused. What came about that showed that the trial must still go on?
OHNOES, no new information has emerged. The (putative) victim and the prosecutor are still black, and the accused are still white. This, it seems, is sufficient to require the accusations to continue.
Nothing to see here, move along, move on…
Regards,
Ric
Ric, the prosecutor is white. But he’s also a politician.
OHNOES
A prosecuter can go ahead with trying a case if s/he wants, even with the flimsiest of evidence. Especially if, like Nifong, one is in the midst of a political election and is more interested in scoring $$$ and political points than, you know, serving justice.
When the OJ trial was moved to South Central and handed over to relatively lowrung DDA’s one KNEW the “fix” was in. Not that the DDA’s tried less then they could have, but with OJ’s money he tossed well seasoned sharks into the pool with the DDA minnows.
Understand that this is why Nifong went to the grand jury instead of just filing charges. One – he got a captive audience as no exculpiating evidence had to be presented – Two, sealed indictments were returned by Nifongs captive GJ which allowed him to hog publicity by having the two indicted defendants in cuffs frog-marched into the police department with their faces plastered all over the media. Even if the trial never goes forward, those young men’s lives are forever tainted. Period. There was NO REASON, when the LAX team had been cooperative for such a reason. All Nifong had to do was call their attorneys to have them surrender into custody for processing.
Now that the second DNA test has ALSO ruled out anyone but the alledged victim’s own boyfriend as having had any kind of sex with her, I would have thought Nifong would have dropped the Capt Ahab bit and let it fade.
The he goes and indicts a third person that the vic says she is “90%” sure ….
Back to the DNA thing for a bit…Nifong is flogging the stat about majority of rape cases being tried without DNA evidence. But there’s a lie in there because what Nifong and his supporters are failing to say that in most of THOSE cases DNA is never mentioned because SEX between the parties is not disputed, only CONSENT is!
I will be shocked if this gets beyond prelim. I don’t care what jerks the members of the LAX team have been (and their history is one of usual college jock jerkiness ignored by adults who should have stepped in and stopped it) aggravated rape and kidnapping charges are the stuff of 25 to life and it is also a charge that, even if they go free, will never leave them.
Nifong should be the one in jail.
ed,
The rationale is that Nifong will have firmly secured his lips on the public teat by then and the mob will have moved on to the next circus, thus allowing the charges to be quietly dropped. It was low-rent of the boys to hire a drunken stripper, but this is abuse of authority.
Then you have NY’s Spitzer, who specializes in political prosecutions, including threatening dangerous adoption centers for the crime of locating to near to the Planned Parenthood camps.
Also Ronnie Earl, who, between takes on the set of his movie, indicted Tom DeLay under a law that didn’t exist.
And the Joe Plame non-crime, in which Scooter Libby is being prosecuted seemingly for not recalling the exact minute he saw Dick cheney’s margin scribblings years after the fact. While reporters put highly classified secrets on the front pages, informing terrorists how to avoid detection.
I recently recieved this from NewsMax:
“More than three years ago, on July 14, 2002, Ray and his partner were patrolling the Buckhead bar district area of Atlanta. It was about 3:00am when they heard the sound of breaking glass and a car alarm go off—and saw a man jump out of the shattered passenger window of nearby car.
Ray and his partner began shouting over and over: “Police! Stop! Police! Stop!†But the man ignored them and jumped into the back seat of a nearby Chevy Tahoe SUV. Both Ray and his partner drew their weapons and slowly advanced towards the SUV. Suddenly the driver of the SUV, a man named Corey Ward, punched the gas pedal and started driving straight at my husband.
Ray was trapped between the right front of his cruiser and the oncoming car. With the SUV just a few feet away from him, Ray had no choice. He fired off two shots from his service revolver and tried to jump out of the way. But he didn’t make it. The SUV struck his knee.
And the worst was still yet to come.
Corey Ward, the driver of the SUV, died at the scene from the gunshot wound to his head. Ray was devastated—it was the first time in his police career that my husband had ever been forced to kill a man. But he knows that he did the right thing.
Police are trained to use force if they feel their lives are in danger. Which Ray’s life clearly was. But anti-police activists in Atlanta didn’t agree.You see, Corey Ward was a young black man. Radicals in the black community accused my husband of being a rogue, racist cop.
They held demonstrations in front of the police station calling for a murder indictment against Ray.
Even Johnny Cochran—the notorious attorney who defended O.J. Simpson—showed up in Atlanta to stage a protest!
Ray and his fellow police officers—both black and white—couldn’t believe it, as my husband was being labeled a “racist†for defending himself in the line of duty!
Then, after everything we’d just been through, Ray’s National Guard unit, he is a sergeant, was called up for deployment to Iraq.
It about broke my heart to say good-bye to him. But God brought Ray home safely after a year-long tour of duty. Our family was finally all back together. And we were all so excited when I found out I was expecting our fifth child!
Then without warning, the Fulton County District Attorney announced that he was indicting Ray for the murder of Corey Ward.
That’s right—three and a half years after my husband was nearly killed by Corey Ward’s SUV, and after a year long tour in Iraq, the DA finally bowed to pressure from local activists and indicted Ray.
If convicted, Ray could be imprisoned for the rest of life—just for doing his job!
My oldest daughter is scared to death that she’s going to lose her dad. My sons try to be strong—but I can see how frightened they are, too.
And every time I see Ray rock the baby to sleep, or just walk the kids to the bus stop, I can’t help but think that these are sweetest moments of our lives—the moments we’ll lose forever if Ray is sent to prison!
I’m trying to have hope. But the deck is stacked against us.
Remember, it took three years for the Fulton County D.A. to decide to indict Ray. It shows you just how powerful the local radicals really are that the D.A. caved in to their political pressure.
The local news stories never mention that police found cocaine, marijuana, a large knife, and two stolen cell phones in Ward’s SUV.
Or the fact that Corey Ward drove his three-ton vehicle right at my husband!
Or the fact that in the police report, one of the passengers in Corey Ward’s SUV said “he saw a man get out of the vehicle and yell police, police, stop, stop!†The passenger went on to say “I knew the guy telling him to stop was a police officer because of the chain he wore around his neck displayed an Atlanta Police Department badgeâ€Â!!
I feel like we are barely treading water. And even if Ray wins in court, the trial will destroy us financially.
The International Brotherhood of Police Organizations and the Police Benevolent Association in Georgia are both standing behind Ray. And the rank-and-file of the Atlanta Police Department support him, too.
I can’t stop my mind from racing. Will my husband have to rot in prison for the rest of his life for a crime he did not commit? Will our little baby boy ever see his daddy outside of a jail cell?
And if Ray survives the trial, how on earth will we ever pay our legal bills?
Right now we are clinging to one hope:
The Law Enforcement Legal Defense Fund (LELDF). LELDF is an answered prayer to innocent officers like Ray. Former Attorney General Ed Meese is on their board. When the Chairman of LELDF heard about Ray’s case, he called and said he would do whatever he could to help us.
Now they are trying to raise money on Ray’s behalf—to pay for attorneys, expert witnesses, and legal research.
Ray and I aren’t wealthy people. With five children, including a newborn baby, it’s all we can do to make ends meet.
That’s why I’m about to ask you the hardest question I’ve ever asked anyone in my life:
Will you please consider sending a gift to LELDF today to help Ray’s case?”
I vaguely remember this case from years ago. Another travesty. What the hell is going on?
Directly. Not like those indirectly responsible.
One is even a gay basher!
I was always inclined to believe the real responsibility for the horrors and deaths of Katrina should be assigned to the hurricane force winds and the massive downpour.
Government for hire. When will we institute lobby reform and term limits?
Re: Darleen and Ric Locke’s posts:
You have GOT to be kidding me. I mean, these days I expect the worst out of the news, but THIS?!
Why yes, actus, one of the LAX team made nasty homophobic statements!
So let’s see him get 25 to life for a crime he did NOT commit!
Because he’s the symbol of WHITE GUILT!
The real impetus behind this case.
From the leadoff spot:
actus–you, as always, are an idiot.
That said–reverse Scottsboro boys anyone?
Here’s another wonderful rape case, in which the likely innocent guy has now been in prison for 18 years.
Note that the Cathy Young piece is a dozen years old.
More background here.
Good links, Pablo. Here’s another.
I first contracted PTSD and then a historically fatal illness (with modern treatment options) as the result of legal abuse.
The problem IS government. The mob has made its demands, and in the name of reelections and lobby graft, government has capitulated by becoming a social parasite.
Didn’t they also, you know, bash people?
We got a while to go before we reach that.
Nice duck, actus
One player was on a suspended sentence/probation for misdemeanor charges. So “bashing” is more akin to “shoving” then “beating”. Beatings rise to felony charges.
You really don’t know much how the criminal system works, do you?
Oh yeah? Prove it.
I mean, let’s take a look at what we’re talking about here. This post starts by repeating the assertions of one Thomas Sowell – – an editorialist given to flimsy, completely unsupported statements like “the District Attorney may well owe his recent election victory to having tapped into … racial resentments” – – and beginning a dialogue about them as if they were fact.
Mr. Sowell finds one student who makes an argument that these white kids deserve punishment because of the crimes of past white people. Fine, the kid’s wrong. And that shows us ….?
It shows us nothing unless we assert that the criminal justice system is acting to fulfill this kid’s wishes. Which, despite any evidence, the PW posse does merrily:
.
Or, maybe, there’s evidence that a very common crime occurred. Some of you all are so fast to leap on some identity-politic hate-on-whitey conspiracy theory that you seem incapable of even considering the possibility that these kids did something wrong. It happens. Nothing cited above – the long wait for trial, a five-hour examination of a cabbie witness, keeping the charges despite the lack of DNA evidence, the vociferous attacks on the DA’s political credibility – is out of the ordinary for a criminal trial like this.
Not one shred of evidence suggests that Sowell’s dumb kid’s wishes – that these white kids be punished because of past white crimes – are being fulfilled.
All of the evidence says that the agents of power here – the prosecutor and the courts – are treating these kids like any other accused criminals. They’ll get their day in court.
So where is this “will to power” that Jeff sees so graphically? In one kid running off at the mouth?
Never been in it, thank god.
According to this article, he was doing community service and diversity training while awaiting the charges being dismissed. This doens’t look like a suspended sentence or probation, as there hasn’t been a judgment. But I don’t really know much about the criminal system.
The victim had a cut lip and bruises. Thats bash enough to be a basher. Not all victims of sexually insecure jocks have to end up like that kid in Laramie in order to be victims of sexually insecure jocks.
was doing community service and diversity training while awaiting the charges being dismissed … This doens’t look like a suspended sentence or probation
::::sigh:::: Let me spell out how it works in my little corner of California.
Understand that the vast majority of cases never get to the trial stage. Also understand that many never even get to PRE-Trial stage, but are either 1)never filed 2)filed and pled out directly to the court at arraignment 3)filed and plea bargained before getting to prelim or pretrial stage.
When one is dealing with a “wobbler”…ie we know something happened but it barely gets into “illegal” range and is a coin toss on whether the charges will be sustained by a jury at trial – and especially dealing with misdemeanors—a standard plea bargain is to set up a probationary period which will have conditions that the defendant must meet. At the end of this period, if conditions have been fulfilled, the case is dismissed. Two things can accomplish it…a plea bargain is signed (defendant admits guilt and a sentence is agreed upon) but the criminal proceedings are suspended by the court until the end of the agreed upon period where upon the court then dismisses the charge if the conditions have been met. Or the hearing itself is continued until the end of said period (no signed admission of guilt) and the charges are dismissed. If the former and the defendant fails the terms, then it is merely a matter of reinstituting the criminal proceedings and pronouncing judgment (sentencing). If the latter, then proceedings just pick up from the last hearing.
This kind of plea bargain is SOP in many misdemeanors, especially with drug charges and minor battery issues.
Since the terms of the misdemeanor bargain include community service and counseling THEN dismissal, the DA and Court in this matter obviously didn’t think the “bashing” was serious enough for conviction and jail time.
sexually insecure jocks
Actus, I give as much credence to your abilities as a psychologist as I give your abilities as a lawyer.
All of the evidence says that the agents of power here – the prosecutor and the courts – are treating these kids like any other accused criminals.
Really? You know, the bogus photo-lineup alone would have kept more honest DA’s from filing any charges.. let alone the DNA tests failing to find ANY connection between ANY LAX player and a “three hour” assault and rape.
What other accused criminals are getting the New Black Panthers to intimidate the community against them? Can you source a few instances?
Hey, beetroot, I would have called him “‘one’” Thomas Sowell, too. Who is this guy? I’ve never heard of him.
Spamword, “training,” as in, “I hope you guys have training wheels on your trykes.”
I’m sure. Still don’t make him not a gay basher. But it does, i think, make it not a suspended sentence or probabtion. Those are for when there are judgments and pleas. That’s not what this kid faced.
But what do I knnow about the criminal system?
Obviously. Still don’t let him off the hook for being a gay basher.
Hey, just like anyone else, I know the high-school age jerks that hang out in Georgetown. The kind that punches someone when they ask him to stop calling them derogatory names.
beet,
I don’t think that is true. Granted I don’t know how other “accused criminals” (I wouldn’t say they are “criminals” YET – more like “alleged perps”)but wouldn’t you say that simply the existence of $400,000 bond is somewhat over the top? I’m sure that is not ordinary for these charges and the circumstances of the accused.
Granted, I don’t have all of the “inside” scoop out of the DA’s office, but everything I’ve read regarding the timeline and the whereabouts of the accused, in conjunction with the lack of DNA evidence suggests that this is anything but “normal” handling of this case.
I reserve the right to be wrong. And if it ends up that these young men are in fact guilty of rape, as charged, they should be punished appropriately, regardless of their race or economic status.
I can, however, see how someone could come to the conclusion that “identy politics” enters into the case.
*All of the evidence says that the agents of power here – the prosecutor and the courts – are treating these kids like any other accused criminals.*
Its not true. This DA is dragging his feet, failing to disclose evidence to the kids’ attorney and apparently pushing a prosecution forward on a extremely flimsy evidence. Now I don’t know whether the DA is doing this b/c its an election year (was) or if he’s just overly cautious about dismissing charges b/c of the amount of scrutiny and attention being given to the case. Either way, it is somewhat mind boggling how the case is being run, it is not standard procedure in the criminal justice system and there is something off about the entire thing.
I should be careful how I characterize the normalcy of the case – I’m not an expert and it’s quite possible that the DA is taking extraordinary or even improper measures to win a high-profile case. We’ll see when the case comes to trial.
But the accusation that underlies this post is not just that Nifong may be wrong—it’s that the DA and the justice system have been perverted by the powerful forces of “identity politics” and “collective guilt,” and, again, I see no evidence whatsoever that the DA or anyone in this case is motivated by a desire to punish today’s white boys for the crimes of white boys past.
What I do see is an intense desire among many here and elsewhere to dismiss the charges as baseless and hitch this case to their ideolgical wagon. Dare I call it a culture of white victimhood?
Ace, clearly a deep thinker (“Liberals don’t have ideas, they have an agenda”), has decided that these Duke fellows are innocent. He has to think that way in order to vilify Nifong. Nifong might be a grandstanding asshole. Or, Ace, those Duke fellows might’ve hired a stripper, gotten smashed and horny, and shoved their cocks down her unwilling throat.
Either are distinct possibilities and I’m quite certain that no one in this community has the evidence necessary to dismiss one or the other as impossible.
Maybe I’m wrong; maybe Ace was there. Beats me. But what I don’t see is any evidence that supports Sowell’s contention that
Oh yeah? What makes it “look” that way? That Jesse Jackson is talking to the press? That some kid has an opinion? That the DA is working hard to get a conviction? That the press is fascinated with the case? That legions of commentators like Sowell are willing to opine about it?
I mean, what the f*** are you talking about, Jeff? Who wagged what? What Emperor? Has someone gone to Nifong with some incontrovertible argument that undercuts his position, only to have him reply with some speech about collective guilt? Has the media somehow failed to inform the public that this case has crazy racial overtones, and that Nifong has a political interest in winning, just like ALL DA’s have a political interest in winining? What great case on these Dukie’s behalf has been dismissed? Where is the perversion of justice?
What is Nifong doing wrong, and how are the agents of this mysterious identity-politic cabal responsible?
Look, I’m not interested in beetroot’s sophistry. If these guys did it, they should go to jail. But last I checked, DNA evidence showing that there was no rape is pretty dang difficult for a prosecutor to get around. Furthermore, if there IS viable proof that this DNA evidence is irrelevant… well, I have yet to see it, and I expect that, with the seriousness of the charges (Combined with the stigma that comes from being charged), such counter evidence would be revealed to the public. I have seen no such thing. That’s the sticking point. In the face of uncontested DNA evidence, there IS no reason to trust the prosecutor, unless I’m missing something.
Then again, when you have a sympathetic press on your side… who needs facts?
– Notice that almost to a commenter, its almost unanimously Leftards nattering agisnt the guys. Well why not. they get to have it both ways. Pretend they give a flying fuck about Black Americans, beyond their vote, and stand for the “little guy”, forever harmed by “the MAN” in the class/race wars.
– Heres what happened. During the evening the dancer got so fucking wasted she got into a drunken shouting match with the guys, and ended up leaving most of the cash laying on the floor, so out of it she actuall fell down the back stairs too the house on her way out, spent a few hours crashed out in her girlfriends car, got back to her pimp/boygriends pad, empty handed and mondo fucked up. He smacked the shit out of her, took his turns on her body, then threatened her outright with worse if she didn’t play along with the rape charges idea.
– You could talk to any beat Cop from any medium to large sized city in America, and you’d find this senario has been tried so many times its become a parody. Usually they just take the info, then after pointing out to the accuser, usually on probation for prostitution/other, since conviction of false charges on top of pending violations can lead to serious jail time. Then they suddenly decide they weren’t serious, and it was all a misunderstanding.
– beethead. If Nifong had anything he would have followed form and presented it already to the press. As soon as he made the statement about letting it all fester for a year he tipped his hand. Hes hoping he can find something after the fact, and if not time will push it off the front pages and he can just discretely drop it.
– There isn’t a DA in the country that doesn’t think he was blowing political smoke up everyones ass from the very beggining. He got what he wanted out of it, a ticket to re-election, now hes stalling for time to find a way out of the weeds.
So now we’re into collective guilt here at PW! Apparently, because some people lie, this woman is lying too.
You know, BBH, I’d respect you more if you didn’t pretend you were somewhere you weren’t in order to convince us that you know something you don’t. Repeat after me: “My name is Big Bang Hunter, I wasn’t at the party, and all I have is my personal opinion.”
– And that of course would justify the Lefts hard rush to convict, even as every single piece of “evidence” so far put up by Nifong, who “just absolutely knew that a crime has been commited”, has been kicked to the curb.
– No I wasn’t there. I was describing one of the more typical false charge scams that has become common place. A reader without an “agenda” would not try to make more of it than just that.
– You don’t like it. It doesn’t fit your “need” for this to be a true “race warfare” incident. tough shit. You want to convict someone, then show the jury the beef. Nifongs problem was in starting off with 70 press conferences. No DA does that unless he has no case. Theres no reason. So yammer all you like, and start with the adhominems. It won’t change a thing.
– As of now, everything thats been put forth thus far by both sides, has every DA I’ve heard speak to this case scratching their heads as to why Nifong hasn’t just dropped it.
Beet,
Look. I don’t have the time to “list and link” all of the statements and facts that have come out in this case, BUT the only factor (evidence?) presented against these three guys has been the alleged victim’s accusation. Period. That is it. No DNA, no corroborating testimony, no other physical evidence, NOTHING. Yet, there is the matter of the “show” arraignment with the extraordinary bond of $400,000.
I don’t know about you but I find it hard to believe that three guys could overpower this young woman in a small bathroom and vaginally, anally and orally assault her in a matter of 20 minutes AND not leave one iota of DNA evidence behind. And during this 20 minute time frame, the one guy (I forget his name) has an ironclad alibi from three different sources.
Again, I could be wrong. Based on what I know from the evidence made public, I remain very skeptical of Nifong’s motives.
– One guy can prove he wasn’t there at the time of the supposed attack.
– One guy she was unsure of “because” his picture didn’t have his “mustache”, has never had a mustache in his life.
– On guy she is only 80 to 90 percent sure of, and now says she might have confused him with someone else.
– The only DNA vaginal ecidence is from her boyfriend.
– Her girlfriend, who at first can’t say that she saw ANYTHING happen at the party, and her partner was simply wasted and passed out in her car, later decides shes missing a bet and contacts a PR firm to see how she could twist this to her benefit.
– It goes on and on.
– Nifong had better have one hell of a smoking gun or before its over his ass could be grass.
*it’s that the DA and the justice system have been perverted by the powerful forces of “identity politics†and “collective guilt,†*
In my opinion, identity politics may be the problem here. I’ve been a criminal defense attorney, one of my best friends is a prosecutor in Ohio and in our discussions of the case, we find that the DA has insufficient evidence to bring the case against the 3 defendants. There is no DNA evidence, the ID of the third defendant is not sure thing, the woman’s story is extremely questionable, etc. And yet the DA has not made it known to the defense attorneys what evidence he has of a crime- one of the things a prosecutor has to do is disclose the nature of the evidence against the defendants and to the best of my knowledge, every disclosure by the DA in the case has been negative. If I have my facts at least partially straight, the DA is holding 3 college kids on the word and identification of a stripper. Its VERY questionable.
Three thoughts a. The DA is playing identity politics here for personal gain b. The DA is not playing identity politics but is under tremendous pressure from those who play identity politics for a living or c. the DA is a wackjob who enjoys the publicity.
Either way, identity politics is factoring into this case. If it was 2 white strippers (or even better 2 asian strippers), this would not be a case getting national attention. Thus, the case is even wrapped up in a nice big bow of identity politics.
If I had to choose which side to represent (if I were an attorney) it would be professional suicide, IMHO, to choose the DA’s side.
Being skeptical is one thing—DAs are political creatures and prosecutors’ cases should be considered with skepticism in all cases.
But it’s another thing to dismiss the charges (see: Big Bang Hunter) and call the whole case evidence of the impending victory of the evil force of collectivism (see: Jeff Goldstein). Do you see why that gets my goat?
It’s entirely possible that the DA has a weak case, but I see no evidence to support Jeff’s assertion that some naked Emperor is waving his dick at us all as he celebrates the victory of the forces of indentity-group collectivism.
It’s an enormous theoritical leap which is not supported by the evidence.
I’m quite certain it’s possible – especially if you believe, as many PW readers do, that public discussion of law-enforcement techniques (e.g. telling terrorists that we tap phones) allows criminals to adjust their behavior to avoid capture (e.g. Al Qaeda stops using their cell phones after the NSA story breaks). If these kids left no DNA, maybe it’s because they know all about DNA tests and took proper precautions.
Or maybe they’re innocent. I’m not saying either is true, but I am saying that to deny the possibility that they raped that woman is to surrender to a metanarrative in which the Evil System is Out To Get Poor White Boys Who Ain’t Dun Nuthin’ Wrong.
So, Posse PW, are you stronger than the metanarrative, or do you surrender to it, just like that?
I’m talking about the Ltime. I just can’t see it being done in 20 minutes, especially with no DNA left. I do think that it is possible to deny that the one young man indicted could have raped her.
The telling items for me are simply that there is no other evidence (physical, forensic or witnesses) other than the alleged victims accusation.
What makes me think that it could be all about identy politics is the rush to indict when, if there truly is a case, assembling the evidence beforehand would seem the proper path. The DA is still trying to “make a case” after the students have been indicted. Why not assemble all of the evidence, evaluate it, see if you have a case, then indict?
It smells.
– Not surrendering beetroot. Just not found of trial by press. Particularly when they go ahead and do it, and in spite of losing it in every possible way, “they” persist.
– At any rate, endless supposition doesn’t change a thing as I said.
– BTW. If these guys are given a far trial, accorded the same “rights” you’d like to see Jihadist killers attain, and found to be guilty with evidenc and due cause, then they should get the maximum punishment the law allows.
– Arguing against railroading people is not the same as wanting them to get off the hook if they’re really guilty, so you can pack that strawman away. Its a feckless point, and not one I’ve yet read from anyone here or any where else.
The INDICTMENT is not supported by the evidence, but, whatareyagonnado, eh?
Weak attempts at patronizing aside… that is still one of the most outlandish verbal contortions I have ever seen. And I used to watch Bill O’Reilly. Good grief.
Are you trying to tell me they raped her wearing HEV suits in a clean room?
And there’s the beauty of it all. You’re contorting to protect a blatantly and undeniably craven DA who has NO case and will likely PRESENT no case. For the record, for us to buy him as anything more than a charlatan, HE needs to be telling us this, or something similar, and providing evidence. I will not make wild, innane leaps of logic in the face of piles uncontested evidence that seems highly insurmountable. The prosecution either puts forth an explanation, or they lose, simple as that.
And you also asserted that DNA tests are falsifiable by college jocks while likely drunk… in a 20 minute time frame… committing what CANNOT POSSIBLY be a crime planned with that sort of foresight.
Meaning essentially DNA evidence is worthless.
Look, Mr. Goldstein’s assertion is not as difficult as you would have us believe. What we have is a prosecution that has indicted these boys without a scrap of evidence that will survive cross-examination, apart from what you theorize to be THEIR SUPAR SEEKRET STASH of pivotal, conclusive proof that these boys are guilty.
In essence, the DA is pressing a case that doesn’t exist.
Now, why would he be doing this? Sickos who get their jollies of that sort of thing do not advance to the level of DA, I should like to think. What he then must be doing is a purely political maneuver to score points with the folks, via a compliant media happy to play identity politics. It is the only logical explanation that follows from his prosecution of a case that doesn’t hold water.
Of course, if evidence materializes, then all things retracted, but it is a safe bet that nothing’s gonna spring up. It would have and should have by now.
Nice to see you read the article Mr. Goldstein linked though. </sarcasm>
OH FOR FUCK’S SAKE!!!
If these kids left no DNA, maybe it’s because they know all about DNA tests and took proper precautions.
This is a frat party where even the alleged victim and other stripper talk about the drunkeness so “out-of-control” and “ugly” they just wanted to get out of there, but then beeter would have us believe these same drunken jocks have the wherewithall to cram themselves and struggling stripper into a tiny bathroom and…I guess… after donning themselves from head to toe in tripple thick all-body condom direct from The Naked Gun?
The alleged vic was in the hospital within two hours of the reported assault and all collection, from all over her body, did not reveal ANY dna evidence except from her boyfriend. Even a regular condom would NOT prevent DNA transfer and the vic certainly did not report that the ones forcing oral sex were wearing any condoms.
Beeter, sometimes you can be reasonable, but the idea that the lack of evidence is evidence itself is the stuff of tinfoil-hatted conspiracists.
I’m appalled at your willingness to peddle such unadulterated bovine excrement.
The alleged victim may indeed have been raped, but the forensic evidence so far only points to one person. Her own “boyfriend.”
Is it? It’s a safe bet that OHNOES believes that the Dukies are innocent. It’s also a safe bet that OHNOES doesn’t know all the facts of the case.
It sounds like a safe bet that OHNOES has already tried and convicted the DA despite, admittedly, not knowing the facts of the case.
Nobody’s answered my question: Who’s the Emperor? What’s he wagging? And who are the agents that are suppressing the critics who call him naked?
OHNOES, it’s not contorted at all – – it’s a very simple connection. If a rapist knows the significance of DNA evidence, he may well do his best to conceal that evidence. What’s so contorted about that?
Another thing, beeter
While THE DAs may indeed be creatures of politics (as they are elected), they are outnumbered by a lot of dedicated, hardworking DDAs or ADAs who have no desire to go into politics.
Understand, too, for any HONEST DA, when the DNA evidence came back negative, s/he would not have filed charges. Period. Doesn’t mean if other evidence surfaces they could NOT revisit the case.
– Sometimes the lengths the Left are willing to go to achieve the “agenda” makes it seem like they have a truth condemn pulled over their heads….
– Squeel as you wish beetle. At the moment the evidential scoreboard is something like Dukies 11 Nifong 0, with 2 minutes left on the clock, and no time outs.
If fantasy intrigues you so, Beetie, keep at it. I’m done talking to you. The facts remain as presented, and if there were more to the case, a sane explanation would have been presented by the DA by now.
You know, come to think of it, aliens don’t leave DNA. THEY could have raped the woman. That would explain it happening in 20 minutes.
I mean, we don’t know all the facts of the case… because… you know, the DA is hiding them. He’s using the secret weapon strategy, you know.
Isn’t he obligated to turn over all evidence and witness lists to the defense? If so, has he? If he hasn’t, why not?
The time line doesn’t work out for the DA. Just.Not.Possible.
If a rapist knows the significance of DNA evidence
Beeter, is it your assertion that these drunken jocks were not drunk at all? That they planned to rape the stripper in the bathroom and took premeditated precautions not to leave physical evidence?
Please don’t talk about others’ fantasies when you seem to be pleased spinning some stuff from the 8th diminsion yourself. Dr. Emilio Lizardo would be pleased.
rls
the DA must turn over all discovery s/he has, at that point of time, at arraignment. Then the DA is under obligation to hand over discovery to the defense as it becomes available (test results unavailable at arraignment, etc). Not only is the DA legally obligated to provide discovery of evidence s/he will use at trial, but ANY EXCULPATORY evidence. Many a conviction has been overturned on appeal when it has been discovered that the prosecutor concealed exculpatory evidence.
DA’s are not allowed a “super secret weapon” strategy.
Good lord, did beeter learn everything he knows about the legal system from Perry Mason episodes?
– According to the hearing reports from the other day the DA was ordered to turn over some 1600 pages of case work, plus any exculpirtory evidence that he has. Alls been quite on the Eastern front since then, so who knows if hes actually yet complied. The judge seemed to be making a point that it appeared the DA had been dragging his feet, and would need to comply at the earliest possible time.
– Which begs the question, if you have this iron clad case, why slow roll. Just so many aspects of this case that smell too the rafters, even setting aside the obvious lynch mob mentality of the press.
exculpatory that is….
Darleen,
I have followed this fairly close and I just don’t see where there is a case. As I have iterated the only evidence I can see against these students is the accusation by the alleged victim.
Yet there appears to be quite a bit of exculpatory evidence in the public sphere. If the time stamps on the photos made public are accurate, there is simply no way the one young man could be implicated. He has three independent alibi items, including one eye witness to his whereabouts.
That there is no DNA evidence linking any of the students to the alleged victim should also be exculpatory. That there is a (roughly) 20 minute window for the crime to have occurred (even if the time stamp on the pictures are not correct – they represent the interval) seems to me to make it almost impossible for the crime, as described by the alleged victim, to have occurred. There is literally no way that three people could have forcibly assaulted her vaginally, anally and orally in that time frame.
And of course there is the manner in which she identified the three.
Pick up your crayon and color me extremely doubtful based on the information in the public sphere. Based on “normal” procedures, such as investigators recovering evidence, evaluating the evidence then deciding if one has a case, then presenting that evidence to a GJ for indictment, I question the DA’s motive in “rushing” to an indictment, then doing an investigation to obtain evidence to bolster the indictments.
– Well, as they say rls. An aggressive DA, fighting for his political future, would probably indict a ham sandwich for being accessory to the death of a pig.
My assertion is twofold:
First of all, nobody here knows all the facts of the case, despite the howling of the Big Bang Hunters of the world. You think you know, but you don’t. And the condemnations of Nifong are predicated on the belief that his case is bullshit.
Darleen, isn’t it also true that this information is shared privately but not publicly at discovery? We know what the DA and defense lawyers have chosen to tell us, but they don’t have to tell us everything until they go to trial, right?
Maybe Nifong’s case is bullshit. And maybe it isn’t. But would it kill you to at least give the government the benefit of the doubt?
After all, folks here at PW give the federal government the benefit of the doubt all the time. When it’s the NSA trolling for phone records, no problemo. But when a DA brings a couple of frat boys up on sexual assault charges, suddenly the government is full of grandstanding swindlers.
I’ll say it again: a lot of you all sound like you’ve prejudged this case because you already believe that the system is out to get white boys.
– As in: reading and repeating the facts known and the situation as its been shown and reported thus far. So wahts your beef beetbutt. That I pay attention, and you don’t get to pretend, or what?
– Asshole
– Stop jawjacking and changing the subject beetbug.
– Present all the reasons for indictment or go away.
– You’re boring everyone, repeating the same baseless comments.
Beet
Have you been taking actus pills or what? I feel like I’m trying to teach a snake to tap dance.
Sure the DA and Defense are only sharing what they want us to know HOWEVER we know that NO DNA link, other than to the alleged victim’s OWN BOYFRIEND, has been found. None. Zip. Nada. We KNOW that the lineup was bullshit. You think if Nifong who was trumpeting his “rock solid case” would have kept the DNA evidence from the media if it had supported his case?? Do you think at this point ANY forensic evidence he had to support his case he would be “saving for trial” in 12 months?? For crissakes, I know of capital murder cases that get to trial long before 12 months! And typically any trial delays come from the defense side, not the DA.
Sure, you or I were not there. I never had any opinion one way or another on this case initially, but as the forensic evidence started coming in coupled with some glaringly dishonest moves by Nifong then I felt it necessary to say something. If DNA had linked to the LAX players I would be saying they deserved prison. But the DNA evidence isn’t there. It points to someone else. And now to pretend that the DNA evidence suddenly doesn’t mean anything is so pernicious an assertion that it makes me wonder about the character of the person making it.
No traces of latex either, as there would be if condoms were used.
Just what sort of magic are you thinking of, beet? A couple sprays of DNA Be Gone?
Aha! Phallic Phorce Phield!
Darleen sez;
That was a travesty. It really is incredible that this guy is trying to go forward with this case.
What’s really scary is wondering what might happen if they managed to OJ a jury…
tw: color
Pablo
and no spermicides either…a common component of condoms
I think it was more like, “This is not the DNA evidence you’re looking for…”
– Ok….On H&C they’re reviewing the first feedback from the DA’s notes he finally turned over to the defense. Its so screwed its incredible. All I can say is Nifong is toast if this information holds up.
…
…
You watched Hannity and Colmes?
I’m sorry.
– S’ok…. toss back a couple of top shelf scotch shooters….good nights rest….I’ll recover…. bad like a sunburn….but not permanent…. thanks for the thought….
– Save for beetbreath…. He’s facing another shattered dream….
– No Toxology report
– You can shift over the med exam, but anyway you cut it, no signs of rape
– Told the two hospitals she was raped. Denied she was raped to any of the cops until about interview 4.
– First 20, then 6, then 3.
– Her two drivers talking about sex with her and driving her to meets at least 5 times the nights before.
– I think if I wanted to invent an accusing witness that would be a defense teams dream, I couldn’t do as good a job.
– Nifong has a better chance at parlaying the State lottery, 15 “only nets” from half court, and home coming queen, all in the same evening. Almost like he got his law degree from a package of twinkies.
Well, holy hell man, who was talking about the NSA probes, or CIA secret prisons here? /snickering
Zing!
Nothing provides the public a better education in criminal procedure than some elite members of society getting arrested.
Lemme say this again: we’re not discussing whether Nifong’s case is perfect.
The premise of Jeff’s post was not that Nifong’s case was imperfect.
The premise of Jeff’s post was that “we are witnessing a will to power” in which a naked Emperor is shaking his dick at America, while truth-tellers are threatened with :
Which is a steaming load of paranoid bullshit, pardon my French. Who’s going to jail? Who’s even threatened with going to jail? Who’s even glimpsing the edge of the shadow of the spectre of going to jail?
Jeff? Darlene? Big Bang Hunter? Mott the Hoople? Nobody, that’s who. No-body.
All I’m saying is that nothing about the Nifong case (or the media coverage of the Nifong case) suggests to me that anything’s happening here besides a DA trying to get a conviction in a high-profile case. Yes, race and class are issues. But the system is working the way it is supposed to and everyone will have their day in court.
So what’s the problem? Who’s this Emperor? What dick is he waving? And who’s being threatened with jail?
I’m waiting …..
My beef is that you’re pretending to know everything when you don’t. Pretty simple.
Hey, come on guys, it’s been hours now, what are you, chickens? Cantcha answer simple questions?
Who’s going to jail?
Who’s threatened with going to jail?
Who’s facing even the remotest prospect of going to jail?
Come on, you must think it’s happening, because no one argued against Jeff when he said that this case reveals a naked emperor who:
That suggests that we have much more than a zealous DA working, doesn’t it? So how come I can’t get anyone to actually explain what the f*** Jeff is talking about?
How come? I wonder …….
Ferchrissakes, beet. 3 young men have been indicted, and the DA seems determined to press forward.
Juries have been known to do strange things, like turn OJ loose. Would you shrugg off being in their shoes?
Which represents the normal – if unpleasant for the accused – functioning of our justice system. The men were accused, they’re free on bail, and they’ll have their day in court.
But that’s not what Jeff appears to be talking about. Jeff appears to be saying that he fears jail awaits those who call attention to the Emperor’s nakedness – – presumably, that means those who call attention to the
He’s saying that he fears that those who identify this “will to power” will soon face prison.
And I’m asking what the eff he’s talking about. I don’t know what this Emperor is, who is “willing to power,” and what kind of terror campaign this new powerful force is undertaking that could result in the imprisonment of the Emperor’s critics. Ferchrissakes.
Right. Jeff is referring to them being prosecuted on what seems to be no freaking evidence whatsoever, which is NOT the normal function of such things.
The emperor is racial bias (along with gender politics, which is just barely secondary here). The terror campaign is that which runs innocent people through the wringer to satisfy that racial bias.
It was wrong as hell 50 years ago, and it’s wrong as hell now.
So, would you shrug off the rape charges, knowing that because you’re innocent, everything is just ducky?
.
See, Pablo, your entire assessment of this case is based on the premise that the guys are innocent.
You don’t know that; you don’t know all the evidence. You think you know — you want to know—because a trumped-up case fits your metanarrative (evil system out to punish white men for crimes of past white men).
You’re telling me that racial bias is the only reason these guys were indicted. Maybe the trial will prove it. Or maybe it’ll prove that those three jocks are rapists.
You think you know, but you don’t.
We’re all innocent until proven guilty, or at least that’s how it’s supposed to work. But my assessment of this case is based on what I know of the evidence. I know that evidence which should exist, if her story were true, does not.
As of today, I know that she’s identified 3 men who might have left that pesky DNA that was in her pussy that day and that none of them play lacrosse for Duke. One of them is her boyfriend and the other two are her “drivers”.
So, she seems prtty sure of who she’s had sex with. Except for the white guysthat attacked her, whose reported number has diminished from 20 to 3 after increasing from the original zero she reported that evening.
Beet, my assessment of this case is that she is absolutely full of shit. I think you’d have to be a fucking idiot to think anyone raped her, based on what we do know.
Unless Nifong has videotape of them raping her, he’s wasting people’s lives needlessly.
Do you think she was raped?
Do you think OJ killed Ron and Nicole?