Poll here, courtesy Davids Medienkritik, which notes:
28 % think that Iran is a greater threat. For 16 %, the U.S. and Iran pose identical threats.
The results don’t surprise me at all.
I mean, Iran is economically extremly promising for Germany. And Iran has made it clear what it expects in return for economic favours: “The international deputy of Iran’s Chamber of Commerce, Dr. Fereidoun Entezari, believes that business relations will surely improve if the Europeans do not pollute the economic issues with the political ones.”
Germany got the message…
Let’s hope that we get the message, too—and respond by repositioning some of our overseas military bases.
Not only would that send an economic message to our German allies that we’re not happy with being taken for granted, but it what have the corresponding effect of sending a message to all of “Old Europe” that the United States, too, will act in its best interests—rather than acting as the hall monitor of the world, at whom the spoiled brats it protects aim their spitballs…
(h/t Allah)
So the Iranians dig Strudel. Who knew?
Can’t we move our troops to a country that appreciates us, like Poland?
Whatever you do, don’t mention the war.
Can’t we move our troops to a country that appreciates us, like Poland?
Seriously. Does anyone here know why we haven’t done that? I can’t think of a single good reason to garrison American troops in Germany. Not one. Cold War’s over, man. And if we’re worried about a resurgent expansionist tendency in post-Soviet Russia, isn’t Poland a much better place to locate the troops and hardware?
I mean, screw Germany. The place is going to hell in a handbasket anyway. Why stick around and potentially get caught in the middle of the coming civil war with their burgeoning and unassimilated radical islamist population?
Hmmm.
Frankly I’ve been advocating moving all of the European bases to Poland.
My knowledge of what it takes militarily to project enough power to protect our overseas interests is strictly civilian, but if it’s possible to do so, I’m in favor of using aircraft carrier battle groups to project US power and protect US interests around the world. Get our troops out of Europe and let them start solving their own security problems. If the Iranians or Russians or whomever, over-run and enslave their asses, well…….at least their new masters weren’t as threatening as the US was.
TW: york….as in The Grand Old Duke of
You know, there was a time when stuff like this really ruffled my feathers. I lack the capacity to even be surprised now. Isn’t this just par for the course? It’s time to move on…no need to get emotional about it.
The only thing I’m really curious about anymore is which one of us (Israel, Europe, or the States) is going to have a major city nuked first. Well, that and whether or not Comedy Central will actually allow a cartoon version of Mohammed to air tonight.
We are slowly moving to the East. Rumania, Hungary will see facilities, and the Bulgars have practically begged for a base or two. Better positioned there to project toward Central Asia and Southwest Asia anyway.
Be a pity to give up Kaiserslautern, Ramstein and Landstuhl. But they should go forward.
Oh, and I suspect 95% of Americans neither know nor care what Germans think.
It’s the end of the world as we know it…
…and Germany feels fine
But the other 5% work for chrysler.
Or rather, Major John, if 100% of Americans knew what Germans thought, I doubt 95% would care.
I lived in Poland for six months during college. They’re good people. They adore America. Give them the bases. All the bases.
And Poland’s women are hot. Uber hot.
And the other 5% work at the New York Times, Washington Post,LA Times, Boston Globe, CBS, NBC,ABC,CNN,MSNBC,the state department and the CIA.
“And Poland’s women are hot. Uber hot.” Posted by natesnake
Because all the ugly ones moved to Greenpoint, Brooklyn….
Danke Schoen!
A good excuse to dump the doggie like we should have in ‘89.
Actus, you facile slut. I’d like to be able to convince myself that you provide a valuable service in presenting the “dissenting” view here, but try as I might, I cannot. To my mind, you are an exemplar of the confusion, so common among postmodernists, between clever and profound. You’re well spoken enough; why is it you choose this “witticism tourette” milieu?
Here’s a thought: Present a thesis in plain language with the intention of informing your audience rather than attempting to impress them with your glibness. Then, take the radical step of presenting evidence immediately, rather than after other commentators have requested it. Lastly avoid the urge to skip the thesis and the evidence and go straight to the snark. I mean, hey, snark is great and all, but it hardly qualifies as an argument.
Seriously, your comments read like posts from “The Superficial†or “idontlikeyouinthatway.com.â€Â
OH, and MLD is spot-on that observation.
Poland: All your base are belong to us!
Germany: Wass…?
In other words, 45% of Germans don’t care if Iran attempts to finish the job the Germans started.
Actus really makes you think.
I know it’s hard…but if you will ignore acthole, he will eventually go away. Sort of like a pimple on your ass – hard to not pick at it, but if you just ignore it, soon it will heal itself.
Just think of acthole as a pimple on your ass that you must leave alone.
Its rather simple. 100% of americans don’t care for germany. Except those that work for german bosses.
I agree. I was at a poster gallery across the street from the consulate. Lines and lines of people trying to come here. Some quite excited when they came out with their visas. Give them visas!
Of course the Krauts are right, and I reserve the right to use derogatory slurs about those of German ancestry since i are one.
The modern euroweenie always values “peace” more than freedom or justice.
We unsophisticated provincials prefer war to slavery.
And Patton was right–Americans love to fight. And if you disagree, you can go to hell and meet me in the cyber parking lot where I’ll kick your cyber pacifist commie butt to digital hell and back–especially if you’re a jerry.
I’ve punchlined that setup before. I’ll let someone else take it this time.
Is it possible that we could just pass on the whole thing?
Heh. Looks like someone‘s upset they couldn’t finalize the solution, if you know what I mean and I know you do.
Move the bases from Germany. We don’t need them there anymore. We should move them to Eastern European countries, where people love us and the governments will bend over backwards to accomodate us. We saved them from Communism. Our presence will help them. It’s only natural we should move on.
rls,
Thanks for that. Guess dinner will be a little on the light side this evening… Heh.
No problem, Major. Glad to help you maintain your weight.
When a large percentage of Americans believed Saddam was responsible for 9/11, the media they supposedly watched (aka Fox News) was blamed. Even though those words had not been spoken by Fox, the idea was that the slant of their news led to that misconception.
So…when Germans have such a misperception about America, who is to blame?
What? Our troops can’t leave Germany. They’d re-invade Francea…
On second thought, let’s get those boys home!
So…when Germans have such a misperception about America, who is to blame?
Well, America, of course.
Oh, and the Jews (who are always to blame).
Who did that blaming?
Why can’t we just sell Germany to Poland and kill two birds with one stone?
Actus, who isn’t wrong on everything, noted that Americans with German employers care what the Germans think—and in that, he’s at least partially right.
But it’s more than just those who work for Daimler: some 48% of the American people were silly enough to vote for John Kerry, many of them because they were just so concerned about how the Europeans felt about us. The Europeans couldn’t understand how we could have put a cowboy in the White House, and since a lot of the quiche eaters in New England can’t identify with cowboys either, they felt the same way.
There really is an American sense of superiority: a lot of us, including me, believe that our culture has proven to be better than those of other countries, and the visual evidence of that is our properity, our productivity, our intellectual achievements and our strength. Well, there are a lot of Americans who find themselves embarassed by that sense of superiority, and they respond by going in the other direction: our culture is boorish and simple and not as sophisticated as the smugly satisfied (if nevertheless unemployed) Europeans, and they want desperately to have a representative of America the Europeans will like, so our liberals won’t have to feel so embarassed and insecure and inferior about themselves.
And this is nothing new: the poll results were similar in the 1980s, when President Reagan was facing down the Soviets.
I think Euros feel obligated to talk this crap when someone asks them. Not all Germans are wankers! I just Netflixed a great film, The Tunnel! Unabashedly anti-Commie, full of tension and heart.
Plus, the director is really hot.
They don’t even realize the dude’s not a cowboy. To them, the glaring distinction between a cowboy and a fratboy is a quaint american subtlety. Clueless!
Well, before I let my head get too swelled, I realize that I’m driving a Japanese car assembled by Canadians.
Or to paraphrase some famous economist – even if we are better than everybody at everything, it still makes sense to let them live…
And 26% of the poll respondents answered in Arabic or Farsi…
mmmmm, yes, they make you drink with them and iirc gave rto a nice warm coat.
Now if all of a sudden the only US port capable of processing German cars was Kodiak Alaska……..
And our buds the Iraqi’s declared null and void all contacts and debts incurred by the Saddam regime as an odious debt………….
actus: Who did that blaming?
Why, there was a University Study, of course. Picked up by many competitive networks and newsources:
Reading your comments I can only agree to most ones here – when the hell are the americans moving their bases out of germany? I dont know for how long I will be able to stand those foolish soldiers here any more
Seriously, the only ones being happy about american bases in our country are our financial politicians who always welcome an extra source of cash income. Do you really believe anyone else would be sad if you finally left?
Please write your politicians, convince them, do whatever you can so that those american soldiers finally GET OUT of here!
Dont misunderstand me – I agree that something must be done against the Iranian regime, and if it takes an invasion to end it be it so.
But please let us europeans handle the job, so that another mess like in Iraq can be avoided. Whenever we occupied countries, why did it work so well? We never promised them any rights about anything, all we had in store was creating public order and safety. And it worked!
You had me going there for a while. I almost believed you were a real European, right up until that last line. I mean, I’m lousy at detecting sarcasm, especially without verbal or body language clues, but that just couldn’t possibly be real European opinion, right?
actually, I was serious.
Maybe that sounds unfamiliar for someone expecting all europeans being pacifists. But thats not common among young germans today, the generation of pacifists is that of our parents. I believe that our country needs to do warfare as every nation else does for defending its interests. Before that point, we are not fully sovereign.
Ah, ya gotta love the Germans: if they aren’t at your feet they’re at your throat.
Yes. I believe that the local merchants, landlords and service providers will be very sad to lose the the millions and millions of dollars spent by the American troops stationed there. I can think of a number of towns whose economies will be grievously harmed when half or more of their customer base disappears.
The ladies at Anabella Haus will certainly be dismayed.
What have any Europeans done that would avoid the situation in Iraq, aside from supporting a murderous thug? Just what is it you think you might do about Iran? Give them Israel?
Oh, now I get it! We should just kill everyone who gives us any crap! That still seems to be the European way.
I remember hearing somewhere that the removal of US bases in Germany would be potentially devastating to the German economy- if thats the case, it seems counter-productive to embrace Iran as a partner.
This from a nation that plunged the world into two world wars in the 20th century, millions of people killed, dozens of nations destroyed, resulting in tens of millions displaced and eventually enslaved by totalitarian tyrannies.
Like we should pay attention to what they say about war and peace. Feh.
nobody important,
In Germanicus’ defense, throwing jabs at his German heritage is mean spirited.
From first hand conversations, Germans from the past two generations carry an immense amount of guilt over their WW1 and WW2 legacy. During their youth, they are taught a varied form of self hatred in regards to those events. They were not even alive.
I feel the same way about America’s slavery legacy. Unless you were a slave, don’t talk to me about how “I” am responsible for those events. Those were someone else’s sins.
I’m just trying to keep it civil.
But those are correlations between misperception and media consumption. Not causations. You think they’re causes?
I don’t think that follows. If someone picked up that report and used it to blame Fox News, whether they were entitled to an inference about causation or not, they “blamed” Fox. That was what the question was about, was it not?
And it’s not just the study cited. Just google e.g. Faux News misled Saddam 9-11 to find a lot of blog commenters. They’re clearly doing some blaming.
I don’t expect Europeans to be pacifists. I just remember that with the excpetion of Britain (already a coalition partner) I don’t remember any successful occupations since the second world war. I was specifically think of France (Vietnam? Unsuccessful. Algeria? Unsuccessful. The rest of Africa? Unsuccessful.), not Germany, and I was limiting myself to post World War II to give me a bit of a challenge.
Yes, thank you Dr.Steve.
Germanicus:
What stopped you from ‘handling’ Iraq, Germanicus?
If someone suggested that germanicus was a beer-swilling, lederhosen-wearing Nazi, that would be ridiculous. But to take exception to his comment that Europe in general and Germany in particular haven’t made more than their fair share of messes? Oh, please. Let Europe handle it. Sure. That always works. Seriously, how many of the world’s current problems have their roots in European wars and/or colonialism?
I agree totally. Get all of our troops out of Western Europe. I am quite certain that Poland would be quite appreciative of the presence of several thousand US troops and many millions of US dollars put into their local economy.
If there is not enough room in Poland, a few permanent bases in Afghanistan and Iraq wouldn’t be a bad idea, either.
The question was who was doing the blaming. The study wasn’t. Other people may have been. It could just be that the same people that believe that junk about 911 also watch, or tolerate, or like, the junk on foxnews. And people that bother to read the papers are also better at determining BS from other things, so dont’ believe in teh 911/iraq junk. Both very beliavable to me. But the study doesn’t answer it.
You should post this over in the propaganda thread. This is great propaganda.
Ah, but one perhaps forgets that many of today’s problems are due to European interference in the past.
The British created Iraq.
The British created Trans-Jordan; then Jordan and the Palestine Mandate.
The British forcibly kept northern and southern Sudans united.
The French created Lebanon and Syria with borders to intentionally keep various factions in competition (so they wouldn’t go after the French).
Yugoslavia worked out very well.
The French wanted to control Alegeria.
The French were in Indo-china.
The Iranian Revolution can be blamed on England and Russia.
The list goes on and on.
This is not to say that Europeans were not pacifists; it’s merely that their foreign policy is half of why we have all these problems.
Nobody kept us from dealing with the problems in Iraq – we were in the middle of doing buisness with the old government, and then suddenly the americans invaded and destroyed every infrastructure in that country. There was a dictatorship before that invasion, but there also was order and no chaos like today. Thats what I consider a complete mess.
When invading a country, you have to do it the right way. Dont promise the invaded people some kind of rights when not being able to keep up with those promises. Did you ever wonder why the european press focuses so much on Abu Graib and Guantanamo? Its because you made promises to those arabian people of liberating them, and those violations dont fit into that picture. If you hadnt promised anything in the first place, nobody would be able to complain about those famous examples.
Those arabs are living like our ancestors did in the middle ages, some thousand years ago. You cant just go in and tell em something about modern age governments or keeping religion out of it and then expect them to live according to that. You need to guide them, educate them, and most importantly: You need to keep up order while doing this. Thats the way europe has kept its colonies for centuries and due to violating those basic rules of invasion, its the reason why Iraq has turned out to be such a mess. You cant expect a defeated people to cheer in liberation when every kind of social and economic structure around them falls to pieces.
So when dealing with Iran, please dont be so naive again..
Oh, the irony. When did Germany last invade someone, much less “the right way?”
Here’s a hint. The last major invasion was codenamed “Barbarossa.” Google it if you must.
Not that I blame Germanicus. But it is ironic. A little too ironic.
T.W.: It’s difficult to respect a German’s opinion about “the right way” to invade someone. Perhaps an unfortunate choice of words.
I like the transferring of germany’s actions to the guy from germany. Ask him about turks, about gas chambers, about scheisse videos too.
Germanicus sez:
Yes, and you should just do it the European way, which is very, very simple.
It’s really easy to maintain order, once you’ve decided to do it.
Actus, I provided one source of examples of “who was doing the blaming” in the paragraph of my post immediately following the one you excerpted. Did you see it?
In any event I’m no longer certain how your response relates to your original comment.
Hey, we need to give the Germans a break. Look at how well they handled the situation in the former Yugoslavia. The ignore it and pretend it doesn’t exist solution has worked so well for Europe in the past.
Time!
Actus, no offense, but you need to read the German guy’s comment again.
That being said, you do have a point about people who work for German companies should care how German people see Americans, but the opposite is more relevant. The US is a much bigger market for German companies than Germany is for American companies. German interests do a HUGE amount of business here and THAT’s the reason why Americans should care how the average German sees the US.
Should I open that account with Deustch Bank? Order those chemicals from BASF? Am I going to get a fair shake in negotiations with these guys when 95% of them think the country that I represent (as soon as I open my mouth, I have a pretty distinct accent) is just as bad as Iran.
As simplistic as it sounds, and as wrong as it may be (hurt feelings…yaddda yadda), when someone tells me that Germans think that the US is just as bad as Iran, I think they are passing judgment on ME, personally. Now you may say that they don’t mean that, that they are talking about my government, I could be a perfectly nice guy…whatever. I’m not a perfectly nice guy and I think they are full of shit. First impressions and gut reaction make the world go ‘round. And World Peace is over-rated, I would actually hope that the US (by which I mean “we” by which I mean “my democratically elected government and me”) was a bigger threat to the status quo than some totalitarian kook in a funny hat.
And yes, I’m allowed to be pissed off and proud at the same time…and friendly,”Hey Gereman guy, good to see you, what’s shakin’. Nice place you got there, spent a lot of time in Aachen and Bonn when I was a kid. Nice looking chicks.”
I may have spelt some words wrong too. I don’t really care.
I did. But to clarify: its not the study. You said there was a study that was picked up. And then you said “people” were doing blaming. That’s true, but its not the study. That study could show that foxnews viewers are wrong generally, not due to foxnews.
Whenever we occupied countries, why did it work so well? We never promised them any rights about anything, all we had in store was creating public order and safety. And it worked!
Quick natesnake!
Write something to get the image of 25 million Iraqis in Lieterhosen out of my brain.
STAT!!
Crimso said:
Actus replied:
Up is down. Black is white. War is peace.
T.W.: If you’re going to take issue with my position, at least have the courtesy to characterize it as something other than the exact opposite of what I said.
Terry Hatcher turns to me and says, “It’s been a while since I’ve felt vulnerable around a man.”
My eyes lowered while I assessed her plea. Without hesitation, I placed my hand on her neck, tilted her head to expose the flawless complexion of her check. A gentle kiss followed.
She quivvered in my hands as a tear fell from her eye. She felt the vulnerablity that was desired. She wanted so much more.
Her silk blouse felt like warm water as I guided my way to her ample breasts. I could feel her moist breath panting on ear.
Her limp inviting body transformed into the prowess of a wild leopard. While she tore at my clothes, these curious hands prospected more territory. All taboo was paralyzed.
A modest woman she was not. With anxious force, Terry fumbled with the fasteners on her skirt. She stopped my ravenous searching, held my face, stared into my eyes, and ask, “will you kiss me there as well?”
The rain settled in on that humid Tuesday morning, but the sun did shine on me.
Al, sorry it took so long. I was busy over at Kos performing a C-Section.
actus, I just have to confess that at this point I have no idea what point you were making. I interpreted your comment:
as a request for a cite, for some support for the notion that people were blaming Fox for misleading people regarding a connection—IOW as if you were disputing the issue of whether Fox was blamed.
A study was cited in the comments (not by me, at least not at first). You said the study didn’t “blame” Fox. True enough, although as I pointed out, one could try to cite the study to blame Fox whether the study entitled one to do so or not. In any event (since I’m not the person who brought the study up) I also linked to a web site where Fox was explicitly blamed for misleading people about a Saddam/9-11 connection.
So were you disputing the existence of that line of criticism of Fox, or not? And if not, what were you saying?
Fuck snake!
Now you look like Fabio.
The problem in Iraq was that it was ruled by someone who killed more than 600,000 of his own countrymen and something like 700,000 people from neighboring countries. You (France and Germany) were doing business with him, making him rich and keeping him in power while the people he ruled suffered. That was the problem. And we should have expected you to do something about that problem? Especially after you mucked up our attempts to get an international consensus about fixing the problem because fixing it would have cost you your money.
We haven’t been able to keep order because the progressive left, with support from countries like France and Germany, demands that we bend over backwards to avoid the slightest hint of violation of human rights while giving a pass to the insurgents and the governments that support them, often while they support those very same governments.
The European press focuses on Abu Gharib and Guantanamo because it is a way to make the Americans look bad. The conditions in French prisons make Guantanamo look wonderful in comparison.
Take a good look at the conditions in Africa and tell me about messes. The United States has a much better track record with defeated and occupied countries than other countries I could list. Or why don’t you try and bring order to Darfur?
Perhaps what we have here is a difference in paradigms. When Europeans invade, they do so with the intent to conquer and exploit. When Americans invade, we do so with the intent to implement some changes and then leave. Unlike Europeans, we have never wanted to rule a place or colonize it. Our empire is mainly through the world market. It’s not political or exploitatively economic.
Germanicus made the point about order under Saddam. Yes, but at what price? This state of affairs, of a minority, Sunnis, lording over the Kurdish and Shiite majorities, was in existence since the creation of Iraq and its puppet king. The majorities have been oppressed and persecuted for that long. Not to mention gassed. No, no one took an interest to liberate these people and diffuse a very unstable element in Middle Eastern politics, so we had to go in and do it.
It looks messy, but that’s because we’re going through it. No such undertaking occurs smoothly. In the past, the slowness of information made us oblivious to what such an undertaking would be like. Many have had utterly unrealistic expectations. Give it a few decades before passing judgment.
Yes, it was me that brought the study up, and pointed out that it was picked up by competing news sources. My wording was sloppy, I meant that it was picked up by competing news sources to ‘show’ that Fox news is such a Bush propaganda arm (not literally, actus), that they are able to mislead people to the wrong conclusions.
I’m sorry actus, I didn’t really assume your original question was a search for greater knowledge on the subject and so I didn’t put a lot of effort into my wording. I assumed you were making a throw-away ironic ‘oh yeah that really happened’ sort of comment as is your wont.
My general point is, as I have said before, our own media, blasted all over the world, is relentlessly negative about our country. Countries who allow virtually no public dissent or news coverage, it seems to me, are of late getting reputations as being less dangerous than the US. NOT because they are less dangerous, but because they are more ruthless against those who would print negative stories.
I don’t live in the US, but if all I had to judge the US on was what I saw on CNN, I would think the US was a pretty crappy dangerous place.
Wait. Now it looks like I think Fox News really was responsible for the misperceptions about Saddam and 9/11. I don’t. It’s too narrow an issue for one thing, and I don’t think it was ever shown Fox actually asserted that with any kind of frequency.
I do, however, think media outlets both embrace the idea they are able to shape opinion and deny the idea that they’ve shaped opinion.
I’m babbling but I’ve only had 2 cups of coffee.
I wanted to know who did the blaming. The study didn’t. That site showed fox mixing Iraq comments with war on terror comments. The site actually provided some evidence, rather weak, for its claim. The study provides no evidence for the claim. I just wanted to make clear that the study doesn’t show causation, just correlation.
The study is consistent with the blame, but it doesn’t show it. Its also consistent with people who watch foxnews (or TV in general, vs. Newspapers—If I remember the study correctly ) as being morons.
Civilis made a good point about France and Germany doing business in Iraq. As far as I can tell, the Iraq war is an economic war on central europe. The French and Germans sent business to the Middle East and took all the money. America’s response? Send in troops, something that we knew Europe didn’t have the balls to counter.
That said, any references or generalizations about history, like colonialism, Nazism, Baath party executions, or post-WWII reconstruction are baseless. Foreign policy does not involve other people’s morality. You have to deal with Germans and Iraqis as they are today.
This thread mostly reads as “Haha France we saved your ass in world war two!” Turns out if you move to France or Germany you will get laid a lot more, work a lot less, eat much better food and drink far cheaper beer.