Tigerhawk surveys the leftside of the blogosphere to divine how as a group they are dealing with the Danish cartoon controversy (“row”?)– which today has prompted yet another embassy bombing.
The results may surprise you. If you happen to be a sponge, that is. Or a lemur with a crank habit that keeps it’s trembling little lemur fingers from taking the pulse of our current hyperpartisan political climate.
The fact is, this simply won’t be a story on the vocal edges of the progressive left until the hegemons fight back with force—and the State Department took some of the wind out of those sails by (depending on your point of view) either 1) punting (their response—which was to take the side of Muslim outrage, was diplomatic and pragmatic); or 2) fumbling in their own end zone (their response was disastrously conciliatory, and is likely to embolden what looks to be an already orchestrated PR campaign against western power to make any critique of Islam by non Muslims a potentially deadly offense).
Until Reuters gives us photos of religious martyrs (though not Christian or Jewish martyrs, please; the last thing we need is to see Sean Hannity weeping over Franklin Graham)—robed and sandaled figures killed in armed clashes with embassy guards simply for trying to defend their right to have their religion treated like a Nigel Tufnel guitar (“No, you can’t touch it. Don’t even look at it’
—many progressives are intent to sit this one out, it seems. Although this might get their blood pumping a bit.
Snark aside, however, there has been some pointed discussion of the implications of these protests and counterprotests over at the Huffington Post (predictably anti-Bush, but still), and in a few diary entries at Kos. Similarly, a few dedicated left-listing protein wisdom commenters have chimed in with their spirited attempts to excuse the violent (and completely manipulated, one senses) reaction of the Muslim street to pencil and marker drawings. So not everyone is content to let the clash of civilizations play itself out without them.
[update (2/6/06): although, why I bothered pointing out that some progressive / left-liberal sites and commenters have been helpfully engaging in the debate, as I did in the above paragraph, is beyond me. I suppose it’s because somewhere in my heart I hold out hope that lefties who link other lefties will first read the posts they’re linking and disparaging before linking and disparaging them in ways that are just so curiously and obviously false. Oh well, once an optimist…]
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Previous discussion here and here. See also, NRO’s Media Blog, which carries this video—as clarifying an example of the western media’s eggshell stepping around those who believe in free speech, and those who believe in free speech just so long as it has been sanctioned by Allah and a few key Imams, and keeps its head and feet properly covered at all times, peace be upon such speech.
(h/t Wuzzadem, guest blogging for Ace)
****
update: Mudville Gazette delves into yesterday’s demonstrations in Denmark and how “toonrage” spread through the Islamic world. As I have postulated previously (see above), this is a very well-controlled situation, not a violent, spontaneous uprising born of outrage.
And Allah sends along this story from Islam Online, which hammers home the truly Orwellian nature of identity politics as it is being currently deployed as both a strategy to galvanize “group” members (us vs. them) and make criticism of the group by those outside the group proper invalid and inauthentic (coming, as they do, from a critical perspective that, ontologically speaking, cannot possible understand that about which they presume to comment:
A cohort of Muslim dignitaries and organizations are calling for the enactment of an international law banning the publication of any insults to religious symbols and values.
“The United Nations must pass binding resolutions obliging all countries to respect religions and religious symbols, similarly to the anti-Semitism laws,” Abdelaziz Belkhadem, Algerian Minister of State and personal representative of President AbdelAziz Bouteflika, told IslamOnline.net.
The trick here is to take the time to make what turns out to be a rather easy distinction between calls for genocide and the use of cartoons to make political critiques.
Because here’s the thing: not all measures of “respect” and “tolerance” are equal. Though something tells me that the UN might indeed have trouble negotiating the nuance.
Go to http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/freespeech1 to sign a petition in support of Denmark.
I love sunday mornings.
Why is it when a lefty defends depravity, he/she always points to some totally unrelated act?
Normal person: yikes, bad behavior.
Lefty: WHAT ABOUT THE SPANISH INQUISITION?
The not so thinly veiled racism at the end of the 6th paragraph is telling. I guess the “natives” just can’t control themselves when angry.
The last time they had this much fun was the Nazi-Soviet Pact.
oh…is that me?
i’m not left-leaning, i’m science-leaning!
Something dawned on me this morning. And not just the sun.
Just a week ago, the left was arguing, in the most forceful way it knows—banners—the Ben Franklin quote about giving up liberty in exchange for freedom. Granted, they were starting with a distorted version of it, but the “essential liberty” they were concerned about surrendering was the right to make international phone calls to known terrorists without being listened to. The ACLU lawsuit admitted that was their concern.
Now, though, the loudest refrain—and not, admittedly, always from the same people—is that freedom has limits, and we need to be more sensitive, yadda yadda yadda.
Is there a more essential liberty than free speech? Than the ability to freely criticize a religion?
Is there a more temporary safety than appeasing religious fanatics? Than appeasing fanatics bent on world domination?
I think newspapers should have the right to print whatever they want to print.
I think newspapers should have the right to self-censor.
I think news readers have the right to be upset and protest if newspapers print items they find distasteful or untrue.
I think violent reaction to speech is the wrong reaction.
Only in the reality-challenged blogosphere could you find the complete airbrushing out of of Ed Brayton’s publishing of the original cartoons, or this Kos diary which is by and large a resounding “Yes!” for free speech & press, and of course, my bit here, to which I referred the other day.
Silence on the left?
I detect a silence on the right, actually; an aversion to confront the main issue itself: freedom of expression.
Of course, the righties have problems with that angle precisely because of the ham fisted behavior of the current Bush regime.
Let’s see some balance and some defense of free expression.
I take the Ari Fleischer view: People should watch what they say. Besides that, its enlightenment freedom of speech for everyone.
Talking Points Memo
Daily Kos
Crooked Timber
Huffington Post (see the front page)
August J Pollak
Tom Tomorrow
Steve Gilliard
Yes, the silence of “the left” is deafening.
Funny you would put the Steve Gilliard link in there.
This is how he ends his discharge..
The fact is that Europeans now live in multicultural societies and they better consider that. They chose to invite Muslims to live in their countries and now they need to respect their traditions like every other religion.
The whole thing reads like an apology to his new muslim overlords.
Which is why the whole topic has been the major subject of blogs for the last week.
Kee-rist.
As in all matters of state and society, it’s most vitally important to know what the genius Greenwald thinks of it.
Cordially…
Anyone interested in watching people become human pretzels excusing this should head to Wizbang.
Quite an enlightening (heh) discussion.
Tim Blair just stuck a finger in the Aussie Imams’ collective red eye…
I must say, I’m particularly impressed with Mumon’s claim to “detect a silence on the right, actually; an aversion to confront the main issue itself: freedom of expression.”
One wonders why I bothered spilling thousands of words on the subject over the last couple days if they can be so easily airbrushed out of history by the simple inability of Mumon to scan down the front page of the very blog he’s pontificating on (easier even, he could have clicked on the links in this very post!)—where he’d also helpfully find a dozen or so more links (beyond my own posts) to righties debating all aspects of the issue, from the response of the State Department, to the overall reaction of the rightwing blogosphere (has it been too hard on Islam, and so risked alienating those we are trying to win over? Has it been too conciliatory?)
Seems to me this all would fit the desire for some balance and some defense of free expression” ol’ Mumon can’t seem to find. Which, I suspect, is because s/he didn’t bother reading, but rather simply looked no further than the preconceptions s/he carried into the role of protector of speech and Otherness.
Similarly amusing is Llamaschool’s gotcha moment: “Huffington Post” (see front page).
Well, here’s the thing: I did. And I noted that I did. And I noted it in this very post, where I also pointed out certain Kos diarists and left-leaning commenters here were engaging in the “conversation”:
So I mentioned Huffpo and Kos, noted the left-leaning commentariat here, and linked to a photo of progressive demonstrations. Does this indicate the silence on the left is deafening?
No. Just that they are squeaking about something they’d be roaring about were the situation reversed and were Christians torching embassies and threatening to cut of the heads of George Clooney and the Dixie Chicks because Ted Rall presented them in some poorly-drawn cartoon as mindless automotons who gather their patriotism from a magic space ghost.
Finding individual examples of coverage is hardly the same as the virtual explosion of discussion taking place on the right.
If you people would take the time to read once in a while—rather than write your boilerplate before hand and then scan for threads into which you believe it might fit—you’d probably come off a lot better than you do in these “debates.”
Even now, as Muslim protestors firebomb embassies, some of you people believe it appropriate to make the comparison to Eric Rudolph and Timmy McVeigh—one of whom is dead, the other of whom is in custody. These are your pathetic trump cards, and you play them over and over again, pretending each time that they are fresh and can magically ward off the obvious inanity of your moral equivalency arguments.
It’s sad, really.
So listen. If you aren’t going to bother to even pretend that you’ve read what comes before the sound of your own contentious, sanctimonious agitprop, don’t post here. I don’t have the time to answer you, quite frankly.
And as for actus – whose sole purpose is to try to find hidden mini-hypocrisies in any historical action – Fleischer didn’t threaten to kill anyone, as I recall, and his extemperaneous remark from the podium shortly after 911 is hardly any different from the State Department’s recent position on this story. Diplomats and press managers tend to want to rein in conflict.
They were both wrong. But neither situation compares even remotely to the positions being taken up by Muslim protesters. So again, why do you waste our time with such strained implied analogies?
I tried to raise legitimate and thought-provoking questions in my two extented posts on the subject. If you don’t wish to address the arguments seriously, I’d just as soon you didn’t address them at all and waste everybody’s time.
Adults are working here. Go play gotcha with Josh Marshall or some such.
This is how I understand the story developed:
A publisher in Denmark needed illustrations of Mohammed for a children’s book about religion he was doing. Not cartoons, illustrations. No illustrator would submit them because of the fear of retribution. The Danish media then responded by encouraging political cartoonists to provide illustrations mocking the Islamic intimidation. These cartoons initially drew very little response, until the original 12 and 3 more bogus fabrications which were much more inflammatory than the original 12, and apparently of Muslim origin, were circulated among various clergy in the middle east, who then began issueing fatwa’s and stirred up a shit storm.
So why isn’t this the story anyone is talking about? Am I wrong, or has the Islamists and the MSM spun this into a completely different story?
Well, let’s look at some of those “deep” thoughts from those links shall we?
Okay…I think I’ll stick with Protein Wisdom.
No, you’re right B Moe. There’s a massive backstory to this, which I find more frightening than the actual riots.
you know, actus, unless you actually convert to Islam, you’re dissembling on Jeff’s threads (and elsewhere) is not going to make you an equal in the new Caliphate.
BTW John(lesser)
That Juan Cole piece is an amazing exercise in pointed self-delusion.
And he is a professor? Pity the students that get him.
I’m not going to be an equal no matter where I am.
Hmmmm.
1. Ouch! That’s going to leave a mark.
2. Frankly I know a number of lefty liberals. Aside from their near Pavlovian responses to anything ChimpHitler or Rethuglican, they’re pretty nice people.
Still crap like I see here and on other blogs daily just increases my contempt for liberals.
3. I await the next iteration of Christian-bashing by the MSM with breathless anticipation. Specifically in comparison to their “respect” for Islam.
4. Next time a MSM journalist or liberals starts squawking about censorship, I think I’ll just laugh in their face.
5. If any muslims try these little demonstrations here in America I know I’m going to try to attend with a bag full of rocks and a baseball bat.
Gonna threaten another 9/11 eh? Best you make sure your health insurance is paid up.
Hmmmm.
@ actus
Who give’s a rat’s ass actus? Who really gives a rat’s ass?
Make the subject plural and you have a half-decade’s worth of a college professor’s intellectual output summed up in a single sentence right there.
You might want to save that comment somewhere, Darleen. Then you can just copy and paste it for future Cole pieces. Save yourself some time and bother.
a rather lengthy comment got eaten, so a shorter one will suffice.
1. The Western Press is, basically, the product of a Judeo-Christian society. As such, they approach issues of mocking either religion from a mindset of “get over it” . This is similar to a person using an otherwise ethnic slur and responding “It’s okay, I’m a {ethnic group}’.
Islam remains the “Other” while the Pope remains “The Guy in the Funny Hat” and Christ is “The Guy Who Can’t Walk on Water Anymore Because He Has Holes in His Feet.”
2. Capt. Sir Richard Francis Burton is one of my personal heroes. He was the first Westerner to travel to Mecca during the Hajj (and did the source of the Nile thing). His insights into the Arabic mind are 1) better than those of Juan Cole and 2) apparently timeless. The best biography on Cpt. Sir Burton is this:
Book on Burton
3. The press, if nothing else, is demonstrating their soft bigotry of low expectations. Who cares whether gunpowder-based explosives were actually available during the life of Mohammed? The “Arab Street” is OUTRAGED! and they’re pretty stupid, so that’s okay.
Christane Amanpour’s expectations are the lowest, which, ironically, makes her the most bigoted.
But, Jeff, if time or inclination permit – read the Burton biography. The book does the man justice.
..
Book on Burton
…
btw – is it me or does this whole thing have the air of Stripes?
Now that Islam has said “If you make a cartoon of my Prophet .. I’ll cut you. If you make a desecration of my religion, I’ll cut you. If you
What’s needed is John Bolton as Sgt. Hulka saying “Lighten up, Francis”.
Only “Francis” in this case is “Muslims” … for those Lefty commentors who are allegorically impaired.
t/w ‘Fact’ as in ‘That’s the fact, Jack.”
Exactly. No big deal. People should watch what they say, otherwise our freedom of expression is going to bomb Al-Jazeera.
Darleen was concerned. Go bitch her out. But I agree there isn’t much time. Its guns-of-august end of the world times around here. At least till kickoff.
Alright, can ANYONE get some… meaningful dissenters in here? Whenever I feel that everything is making sense and our group of people has nearly a monopoly on common sense, I tend to think I’m missing something blatantly obvious to all but myself…
An echo chamber, only because those who think differently and post here are dopes.
Jeff,
The Tigerhawk post you linked to discusses the “silence” of the left on this topic. My point is that this isn’t true…there are quite a few posts by people on the left that address this topic. A general summary of the reaction of the “left” is this: condemn the violence, defend the rights of the paper to free speech, but note (along w/other crazy lefties like Hugh Hewitt and Dean Esmay) that the cartoons were offensive, antagonistic, and unnecessary. Just because you linked to a Huffington Post story doesn’t change that.
Furthermore, you state that “this simply won’t be a story on the vocal edges of the progressive left until the hegemons fight back with force”. It is a story on the left. Just because people on the left aren’t posting as much about this as, say Michelle Malkin, doesn’t mean that they support (even implicitly) the violence. (Also Michelle Malkin, and others of their ilk, are trying to turn this into an “us against them” moment….the virtual explosion of those that are trying to pin this on all of Islam via simple stereotyping isn’t something to be trumpeted. Though, admittedly, there are lots of people on the right that are making thoughtful comments on this controversy…see Hugh Hewitt, someone I rarely agree with, for example.)
And your evidence for this is…..what? Because, you know, I really remember the “silence on the left” during the Great Jesus-Palooza Embassy Torching Tour of 1994.
It’s an appropriate comparison for those that equate radical Islam with Islam. If you think that the actions of Bin Laden are supported by all Muslims, then by the same logic, you would have to think that the actions of Eric Rudolph are supported by all Christians. I can speak for anyone else, but I am not, and never have been, making a moral equivalency argument. My argument is that radical Islam = Islam arguments are without merit. So you shouldn’t start getting sanctimonious about “contentious agitprop” if you can’t even understand the argument your commenters are making. (And if you’re referring to someone else’s argument that invokes Eric Rudolph, then my apologies in advance…I’m assuming that you’re referring to my comments on this.)
I’m trying to address your arguments by examining the evidence for them. If you’re going to link to a post with questionable content (e.g. that the left is silent on this issue), I’m going to address the lack of evidence for this claim. If people are going to equate radical Islam with Islam, I’m going to address the lack of evidence for this claim. You can talk all you want about theories of identity politics and the like…but if your evidence is questionable and/or wrong, then your theory is seriously flawed.
Actus
I’m not going to be an equal no matter where I am.
Breathtaking.
I base this statement on the assumption that you are a U.S. citizen:
YOU and I are equal in every important respect. By dint of U.S. citizenship, we are free (within constitutional/legal limits – all of which are the product of open and representative debate) to pursue happiness however we choose to define it.
In spite of the best efforts of legions of well intentioned crusaders, social engineers, and aspirant totalitarians, we enjoy equality of opportunity to a degree undreamt of in any other nation on this earth.
I see your posts here. Most of the time I disagree with your contentions. Sometimes I post to let you know why; most of the time I just snark.
I agree with some of the other posters that you don’t bring much to the debate. But none of the other posters have asked more of you than to come up with arguments that hold water, or to just go elsewhere.
Nobody has threatened to cut your head off. Or declared that you can’t have your own ideas. Not even close. Losing an argument isn’t equal to being denied rights.
Read up on equal. People who don’t understand the concept scare me. They tend to vote Democrat, or worse, and as rich as we are as a nation we’re just about past point of supporting them in large numbers.
TW = “forward”. Forward to a world without dictators!
Llama –
Not all Germans were Nazis, either. That didn’t remove the necessity of leveling most of the country of Germany in order to end the Nazi threat. All those “good” Germans just paid the price, right?
Yeah, that’s a little simple. So are throngs chanting “Death to America”, videotapes of beheadings, and Islamist terror states tooling up for nuclear war. We need to end the threat. What price will finally acrue to both sides of that task remains to be seen.
I hope those moderate Muslims read history. I kind of doubt that they do, though. We don’t even teach our kids that stuff anymore.
And that’s why we’re on the verge of another world war.
TW = “waiting”. Waiting for sanity from the Left.
I’d say ‘residence,’ Not citizenship. Its a beautiful country isn’t it?
Then I would suppose you can point to links showing crowds of Christians celebrating in the streets when an abortion clinic is bombed. What McVeigh has to do with religion, I have no idea. But I’m sure Christians rejoiced at that too.
And I’m sure you can point to the statement of the Pope supporting the bombings, along with numerous sermons of local clergy doing the same.
To even start to remotely equate the two is so utterly stupid and simplistic, along with dishonest, I’m frankly embarassed for you.
Llama School – Since the “silent majority” of Islamic peace loving Muslims are “silent” as the extremists in their mist march forward trashing everything non-muslim in their path, who really gives a damn about the distinction. They themselves have every right to be as much a target as the Jihadists themselves, in the contratemp of their defening silence to the hijacking and destruction of their own religious beliefs. So no, I can’t get up any residual sympathys for their plight. I see the moderate muslims in the same light as all of the peace loving German populace leading up to Das Fhuerers war of the worlds. When I see moderate Muslim clerics and followers flailing their arms over the pestulance within, then I’ll get with the program. Until then I’ll save my sympathies for the 2300 we lost at WTC, the 2400 dead and 17,000 injured in Iraq and Afghanistan, all because of the problems of the peace loving Muslims.
Several interesting questions arise from the fact that these items were published back in September, aside from the rumors they were “seeded” by Imams wishing to stir up anti-Western passions….
– Why now four months later. Could it be its aimed at taking attention and pressure off the Iranian/Nuclear issue?
– When the Islamic press/web sites run cartoons and pictures of the “Money grubbing Jews” and “Zionist pigs”, no one, most particularly the left, says a word. Why. Its been going on since the late 40’s. Surely its happened enough for the enlightened “elite” to have noticed by now….
Llama School,
Funny thing about Islam, in quite a few places where Islam is the majority Radical Islam manages to take over. The PA, Iraq before the US invaded, (And don’t even start with this Saddma was secular crap. His own papers are beginning to show that he was training terrorists by the thousands, and guess what, they were Islamic), Iran, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and of course, most moderate of all Islamic States, Turkey, which is a police state that does not allow free protest, except when it involves screaming death threats at Westerners. And in places where Islam isn’t the majority, gosh they have a few problems wiht radicals too… England, France, Indonesia. It is almost as if one has a tendency to go with the other. I know the fact that I have noticed this makes me a terrible small minded, bigoted pig. I’ve been told as much, and I would believe it too, you but for the facts.
See,I just don’t remeber a group opf moderate Muslims turning Bin laden in. I do remember the stories about the WTC crash being an inside job, or, in the alternative a Mosad wet work. All that seemed to orginate in ME Islamic countries, and btw to receive some play on the American left. I do remember Afghanistan harboring Bin laden. I don’t rmeber Iran or Iraq telling them to give him up. The argument that radical Islam is only a tiny insignificant barely noticeable, eeensy weesny, so small that we ca’t even really much see it any way minority just doesn’t hold water any more.
For what it’s worth, I have no doubt there are moderate Muslims. Like the poor editor in Jordan who has been jailed. And, btw I have been deafened, deafened by the left’s cries for his immediate release. I respect these endagered moderate muslims ( and if you don’t think they are in danger look what happens to them in Iraq and in Jordan.) I will try to help them if I can. But I’m very tired of labelling every Muslim that goes beserk when ever a nonbeliever says Allah the wrong way moderate.
I’m even more tired of people condemning the violence while they alibi for it. That includes Robert Fisk and Hugh Hewitt.
Beyond that, I’m tired of people who defend “Piss Christ” telling me that Muslims are to be expected to go nuts when they are offended, but Christians just need to shut the Hell up.
And as for the us versus them canard, let’s put that out one the table and show it for what it is. The “us” are the people who believe that western values, i.e. eqiual rights for women, religous freedom, free speech, free expression, freedom for the arts (even when we don’t like it much) and free association are inalienable. The “them” are people that feel these things are negotiable. Which are you? Becuase frankly, from your post, it’s hard to tell.
Nishizono Shinji
You obviously aren’t aware of the way things are these days. Intelligently design yourself a pair of non-rose colored glasses.
B Moe, you are correct that there is a huge backstory to this that is not being discussed in the MSM. You can begin with this CQ article
Captains Quarters
What I find curious is that the story of how this whole little dustup came about, is being ignored by most, if not all of the MSM. I guess it doesn’t hue to their narrative of events.
The other thing I find really curious is that if this doesn’t wake the lefties up out of their stupor, what will? Will they finally realize it when the masked chanting thugs are holding them down like a lamb at the slaughter while the imam puts the blade against their thoat and starts cutting? That’s a tad late as far as I’m concerned.
Excuse me, but it’s almost time for the kick off and I have to slap my lemur out of his crack induced state of blindly bouncing into and off of the living room walls. And he shit all over my sofa too. Nasty little creatures.
Let’s go Steelers!
Hmmm.
1. If Islamic moderates don’t make a sound when Danish embassies are burned, do they really exist?
2.
Looks like actus is going for the “laconic but profound” route. Frankly you’re terse to the point of irrelevance rather than profound. Evidently you don’t have anything remaining as an argument so you’ve been reduced to parroting nonsense.
The Danish Muslim group, The European Committee for Honouring the Prophet, have been acting as agents provocateur here.
They are the ones who added the extra-nasty 3 cartoons to the “dossier” and circulated them in the Muslim world along with the original 12. They have repeatedly declined to speak about the provenance of these extra 3 caroons, lastly on a FoxNews Special Report interview on Friday.
The source of the report that Danish Front had been planning to burn copies of the Koran came from the head of this group:
“A female member of a racist party circulated a message calling for burning copies of the Noble Qur’an in Saturday’s march,” he said.
I would like to see a copy of that circulation; I suspect it’s made up. I’d like MEMRI to get their hands on that dossier too. It should prove enlightening.
Llama
Where were the riots when Rudolph was captured? Where were the chanting mobs threatening violence outside the courtroom where Rudolph as tried?
Again, if Islamism is only a tiny minority of Islam, there were is the condemnation of this widespread violence and threats from the “regular” moslems?
If significant groups of Roman Catholics were strapping bombs on themselves and blowing bus loads of Jewish schoolchildren and the Pope refused to condemn then, I’d castigate him and every defender of his as complicit with the bombers.
Jeff, I’m a little confused by your Photoshop cartoon. The wooden shoe-wearing, tulip-humping stereotype refers to the Dutch, not the Danish.
So, is the joke:
1. An allusion to the murders of Pim Fortuyn and Theo Van Gogh?
2. A comment of the ignorance and ethnocentrism of Muslims?
3. On you?
Please, let me know who I should be laughing at.
TMJUtah,
Actus’ gripe about not being treated equally is based on the fact that he’s wayy too cool to move from DC to SilverSprings or something, and therefore is taxed without representation. Or something equally inane.
BRD
Good point, but not quite. I said ‘no matter where I am.’ So I wasn’t talking about having to live in some god-forsaken, get-into-the-car burb. But I would get to be right by David Brooks!
Its more about me not being quite that equal to others, even here in too-hip-and-pricy for me gentrified U street.
Actus,
Pray tell, why is it that you’re not quite equal to others.
BRD
Because, they’ll always be ‘other.’ Poorer, richer; holier, more blasphemous; supporters of free speech, in favor of jailing holocaust deniers; supporters of cartoonists, in favor of bombing al-Jazeera; quoters of my future Dhimmitude under the Caliphate, those who support taxation without representation for the district.
I’ll never quite be equal to any of those. And yes, its mostly an hyperbole to match the exaggerated thought that I will be living under a muslim caliphate any time in the future, and whether that has anything to do with what is written on this blog.
“I’m going to try to attend with a bag full of rocks”
Excellent! They’re so fond of throwing rocks, certainly they won’t mind us doing the same. And, of course, they won’t protect themselves using force. They strongly disagree with using force to protect oneself from rock-throwers.
I’m just having a field day that people are mocking Muhammad and Islam now. About time.
actus
I’ll stop chiding you about your slouching towards dhimmitude when you stop acting like Kent Brockman.
TomB  Remember Dick Wolf’s Law. McVeigh was a homicidal neofascist white man, therefore he was by definition a fanatical Christian.
I’m a hopeless cause. See my comments on theocrats? There’s no amount of kowtowing that will overcome those.
No matter how much Islamic doctrine I learn to cite, no matter how much I educate myself on the precise position of the ‘Dhimmi’ in society, no matter how much Islamic theology I learn from jingoistic websites, I’m still going to think that gay-hating creationist bigots are bad people who should not rule over me. No matter the language they speak or the books they cite.
Sorry to disappoint. But there couldn’t have been that much you expected, since, after all, you know so little of me.
Actus, do you really think you’re accomplishing anything here? Treating people like shit doesn’t do much to convince them of anything, and all you do is treat people like shit.
I mean, do you really think there are a lot of “gay-hating creationist bigots” at protein wisdom?
But I see, actus, that you don’t fear that engaging in a little “gay-hating creationist bigot” bashing is going to have some ZionistXtian popping out from behind a tree to separate your head from your shoulders.
Jews and Christians are easy targets.
Moslems? Hmm…Fortuyn, Van Gogh …
Couldn’t have said it better myself, kapo.
Actually I think there are a lot of people here who, like me, don’t want Dhimmitude to the world’s gay-hating creationist bigots.
Actus, who are these “gay-hating creationist bigots” that worry you so? In close to half a century living in what you’d call the “Bible Belt South,” I haven’t encountered any of them. Are you referring to televangelists, perhaps, or Fred Phelps and his odious crowd? Are they representative of a mainstream that you’ve identified? Don’t get me wrong – I’ve certainly encountered racists of various persuasions, although not a one of them grounded their beliefs in religious faith or an explicit belief in Creation Science or Intelligent Design. Fact is, the folks I know who are “faith-based” have a tremendous problem with holding any belief predicated on bigoted or racist assumptions.
To be fair, I have met more than a few folks whose knowledge of the South, not to mention the rest of the nation outside their metropolitan precincts, is based on somewhat faulty assumptions.
But I do so fear the arabic speaking gay hating creationist bigot who works around the corner from me. He serves me a falafel platter in one hand and a scimitar in the other.
Actus,
No matter how much you think you are succeeding, no one really thinks you have a serious thought.
ACTUS!!! Don’t look now, but there’s a GAYHATINGCREATIONISTBIGOT behind you!
Boo!
Does he come bearing falafel, or will he chop my head off? Nuance like this matters to me.
Actus, I’ve got great news! Your delusions of inadequacy? They’re not really delusions after all.
Well thankfully its not just me against theocracy.
I’m always a bit amused at how the Left extolls itself as pro-science for embracing global warming and stem cells, apparently hoping no one will notice that they’re the reason no nuclear plants have been built here in the past 30 years and genetically modified food is illegal in Europe.
Neither, I come bearing good news. Jesus loves you! Have a blessed day!
Oh, and. . . OOGA BOOGA!
TmjUtah,
How many Muslims are involved in the violent response against the embassies? Or how many Muslims support this behavior. Let me throw out a baseless, really high number, and say one million Muslims support this. There are about one billion Muslims on this planet…so 1/1000th of Islam would support this. That’s a small, extreme minority. And that’s using a huge estimate, as the number of violent protestors have number in the hundreds? Maybe low thousands? It’s folly to take the actions of a handful and say this is the viewpoint of hundreds of millions of “moderate Muslims”. Again, a careful examination of evidence is crucial here…and claims that the violent terrorist (or even supporters of the violent terrorist) = the moderate Muslim is not borne out by this evidence.
TomB and others,
You’re right…there were Muslims that celebrated 9/11…they are scum. But are they moderate Muslims? There were extremist clerics that supported 9/11. But moderates? No.
A big problem is that radical Islam is much bigger than radical Christianity. And radical Islam should be eradicated. But again, lumping the radicals in with the moderates is no solution.
Corvan,
You state that “I’m tired of people who defend “Piss Christ†telling me that Muslims are to be expected to go nuts when they are offended, but Christians just need to shut the Hell up.” I will defend the right of people to make “Piss Christ”, and defend the right of the artists in Denmark to publish pictures of Mohammed. I will also say that works like “Piss Christ” and some of the Mohammed pictures are offensive, and Muslims have a right to be offended. Note that I’m not saying that they have a right to any sort of violent reaction. (Atrios makes a similar point today…note, another commenter on this from the silent left.)
And by the way, I value free speech, and wholeheartedly defend the rights of the Danish newspaper writers to publish what they want. And this is the position of the majority of the left side of the blogosphere. You’d have to simply not be paying attention to think otherwise.
Darleen,
Muslims have condemned the violent reaction (for an example, see this CAIR article.)
All of these misconceptions are based on an inability to present solid evidence to back up your claims. Many commenters here think that moderate Muslims = radical Muslims, but don’t have any solid evidence to make these claims. Many commenters say that moderates haven’t condemned this violence without researching (or researching well) to see if there is evidence for this statement. Tigerhawk discusses the silence of the left without evidence for it, and then makes claims about their actual beliefs without any evidence for it. You all can stick with your preconceived notions about Muslims and identity politics and “the left” and what not…but it would be smart to take a step back and examine the evidence for the beliefs that you hold. Without strong evidence to back your claims, you’ve got nothing but baseless opinions.
Well those “few” radical muslims sure have been causing a lot of hell, pain and death for quite a long time now.
And if there are such a vast number of moderate muslims, that far outnumber the radicals, shouldn’t we be able to see and hear them. I am like many people here, I don’t hate muslims at all. But, I feel very threatened by the radical muslims, I feel very sorry for the people in the ME who are victims and are living a live of total hell because of the radical muslims. I want the moderate muslims to stand up, where ever they can “get away with it” and make some really loud noise now. Because if something isn’t done to stop the escalation, many, many people in this world are going to die. I do not believe the radical muslims are all just going to go away tomorrow, for the hell of it.
By the way actus, I am not a gay-hating creationist bigot. I am not a Republican either. I probably feel the same about a lot of issues as you. I just know when evil prevails. And contrary to what “those who only wish to gain power in politics and could give a shit about the security of our country” think, the evil does not prevail in the US.
–
TW: Frustration
Imagine if you will, the good that could come about, if those who are Muslim and their supporters were to stand up, make as much noise, get as much publicity, in as many places in the world as today but, their message was peace.
You may say I’m a dreamer,
but I’m not the only one,
I hope some day you’ll join us,
And the world will live as one.
Really Llama, you believe free speech is an abosluute that should be defended? I’m glad to hear it. Now, what should be done about the burned embassies?
Oh and by the way citing Cair and Atrio to support free speech is beyond ridiculous. If you don’t know why you are frankly beyond reasoning with.
And the Boston Globe after defending Piss Crhist rather vigorously equated the danish cartoons wiht Nazi propoganda of the 40s. Do you agree with them?
no need to be defensive.
Hey, Galliard – and the rest o’ you goat-humpers too! I got yer “binding resolution” HANGIN’, bay-bee!
No matter how much Islamic doctrine I learn to cite, no matter how much I educate myself on the precise position of the ‘Dhimmi’ in society, no matter how much Islamic theology I learn from jingoistic websites, I’m still going to think that gay-hating creationist bigots are bad people who should not rule over me. No matter the language they speak or the books they cite.
So that would be a “no” on an invitation to attend services at my Southern Baptist congregation next Sunday? Even the late service at 10:45? You could even skip the gay-rodeo lessons in Sunday School (not the ropers; the ropees). No? Pastor Jimmy will shore be diserpointed in meh iffin’ I don’t bring no lost souls to get some churchin’…
– One of the factors that most Westerners lose sight of is the large number of angry, below poverty citizens in many ME and Euro block countries. How much do you suppose it takes for that anger of suppression for whatever reason, race/religion, whatever, to boil over. Many of the regimes are barely hanging on sitting on litteral powder kegs. When events occur you see things like the ferry accident scene in Egypt. The “protesters” ranks will often swell just because people have a need to vent their grievences. The extremists of all stripes know all of this ,and capitalize on it. The extreme left here in America know it too, and take advantage as well, to give the appearence that the reactionaries are greater in number than might trully be the case.
– Americas being used in this mess as a handy target to take the pressure off the regimes that have bled their people dry for decades, lining their pockets and living in Palaces while their people are immersed in squalor, and the leaders have squandered countless billions in oil income and foriegn aid. Arafat had banked something like 62 billion while the Palistinians were kept busy hating Jews and blowing themselves up for no reason other than his mendacity.
– Our “crimes” seem to be that we have purchased their oil products for years and we represent other religions and ethniticities. Still the extremists are able to sell that as good cause to paint us as the “Great Satan”, through a combination of propaganda and mis-interpretation of the K’oran.
– We need to stop giving lip service to oil independency and really move full bore ahead on that area. The sooner we disconnect from that aspect of ME relations, the sooner we can rob the Jihadists of their sweet boogeyman. As an added bonus, denied the constant flow of Western monies, most of the extreme movements will dry up.
– I doubt that Bin Laden gives a damn about America. Much more realistic that he wants to bring down the Saudi Royal family that exiled him in shame by scrambling their world market eggs, attacking America as one of their chief sources of income.
TW: Somehow the theories of the left seem rather unimportant when you’re busy getting your head cut off…
Ex-Dem,
I said that radical Islam is much larger than radical Christianity. Radical Islam IS A PROBLEM. I don’t know who “on the left” is arguing otherwise. The issue is saying that radical Islam = mainstream Islam. It isn’t.
Corvan,
People in this thread said that no Muslims have spoken condemning the violent response to the embassy attacks. I linked to CAIR, to show that this is wrong. Just because you don’t like CAIR or Atrios (who was linked to show another “prominent lefty blogger” with a reasonable take on the issue) doesn’t mean you should to dismiss them offhand. Again, if commenters are going to claim that Muslims haven’t responded to the violence, when the mouthpiece for American Muslims have, then the commenters are wrong. They don’t have the evidence to back up their claims, and should be called on it.
And I’m totally for free speech. The embassy bombers should be brought to justice, plain and simple.
Llama School = Well apparently your wish ia thw Lebanon governments command – ME sources are saying that over 350 bombers/protesters/rioters have been arrested. A side note – Over half are turning out to be Syrians and Palistinians… Surprise, surprise…..
Condeming the violence, while attmepting to get all those who critsize Islam fired is a very, very tepid defense of free speech. Is Atiros Duncan Black? Is he the one who seems to be contemplating, if not advocating, a nuclear war with Iran? If he’s not I apologize for asking.
Don’t get me wrong I’m proud of CAIR for condemning the violence, but condemning the violence is very easy. Remember how Yasar Arafat condemned every suicide bombing that happened on his watch? Not allowing those who use this sort of violence any sort of excuse to do it again is another matter entirely, and sadly it is a place where both Robert Fisk and Hugh Hewitt fall flat on their faces.
Condeming the violence, but excusing the urge to commit it and the rherotirc that leads to it isn’t the same thing of course, but the excusing will lead to more of the behaviour.
And despite your protestations, saying that christians would feel the same way about cartoons that depict Jesus in that way is creating an excuse, not to mention playing into the hands of the folks who have created the crisis. I’m sorry you refuse to see that.
BTW, how do you want the folks that burned the embassy’s brought to justice? I’m curious.
Llama,
Which do you think is the bigger problem George Bush or Radical Islam?
Oops, should have been…”Condemning the violence, but excusing the urge to commit it and rhetoric that leads to it isn’t the same thing as committing it, of course, but the excusing will lead to more of the behaviour.” My bad.
corvan – Flourescent lighting…. Oh and those damn headsets that break in two days….
Corvan,
Radical Islam is a MUCH bigger problem than George Bush. As for bringing the embassy burners to justice, jail makes sense. They committed a crime, and should be punished for it.
And I don’t think that CAIR is “excusing the urge to commit” violence here. They’re saying that they’re offended by the pictures, but violence is not the answer.
BBH
A fatwa against the fourescent lights, I hate them as well.
Llama,
Regarding George Bush I’m glad you feel that way. Unfortunately a fair percentage of the people who read the dialy KOS don’t. At least fory one percent of them if the poll was accurate.
And violence is not the answer is a wonderful message for the domestic audience. Unfortunately it accomplishes nothing in the radical portions of the middle east. The violence will not be tolerated and must be stopped. That’s the answer.
Mouthing silly platitudes (violence is not the answer) and condemning the victims of violence for their insenstivity, all the while one opposes every meaningful attmept to actually put an end to jihadist murder, is a silly posture. And one that I’m getting tired of seeing folk (Cair, the dear departed Yassey Arafat, the chinless wonder who runs Syria, the Mullahs in Iran, Robert Fisk, etc. etc.) take. I’m sorry we’ll have to agree to disagree on this.
– I just watched a moderate Islam spokesman say “We can’t accept the cartoons on any level, so of course we responded. I you in the West want the moderate Muslims on your side in the WOT, then you should be respectful to our core religion.”
– All together now everyone: “Bullshit”
– No your assholiness. You should be in the front of the WOT. Its your religion thats being hijacked, not mine. Where is all the embassy burning, and “reaction” when innocent women and children get bombed. Where is the outrage when people get their heads cut off.
What fucking unadulterated arrogance. You post a cartoon Christian/Jew pig and you should be murdered. A Muslim does any act of terror its to be condoned and dissmissed. Again “BULLSHIT”
– And no I’m not going to pander to the moderate Mulims asses so they’ll be on our side. If the cartoons did nothing else they have framed, for once and all, the total one sided nature of this whole pile of Theocratic/Fascist dung. No wonder the asshats love them so much.