From AFP, “Afghans reject bin Laden, want more peacekeepers : poll”:
Huge majorities of Afghans reject Al-Qaeda and the Taliban, approve the US military role in their country and are grateful to international bodies like the United Nations.
The survey by the Program on International Policy Attitudes (PIPA) at the University of Maryland also found strong support for President Hamid Karzai.
“Clearly this (poll) is a positive portent for the struggle against extreme fundamentalism,” said Steven Kull, director of PIPA.
Eight-one percent Afghans polled think Al-Qaeda is a negative influence in the world, with only six percent saying Osama bin Laden’s terror network has a positive impact.
Osama bin Laden himself, once sheltered by the Taliban militia ousted with the help of a US-led coalition in 2001, has even lower ratings, with 90 percent of those polled saying they had an unfavourable view of him.
Eighty-eight percent said they had an unfavorable view of the Taliban.
The poll, conducted across ethnic groups including Pashtuns, Tajiks, Uzbek and Hazara communities, also found large support for the US military presence in Afghanistan.
Eighty-three percent said they had a favorable view of “US military forces in our country.”
[…]
The survey was conducted among a sample of 2,089 Afghan adults from between November 27 and December 4.
[My emphasis]
LOOK WHAT YOUR MILITARY ADVENTURISM HAS WROUGHT, MR BUSH! THE WARLORDS OF THE HINDU KUSH HAVE ARISEN TO SMITE YOUR ILL-EQUIPPED PAPER TIGERS WITH THEIR ANCIENT SWORDS AND THEIR BLESSED POLISHED STONES! THE MOUNTAINOUS TERRAIN AND BRUTAL AFGHAN WINTERS—COUPLED WITH A HATRED FOR WESTERN MEDDLING NURTURED BY THE QUAINT AND CULTURALLY-BELOVED TALIBAN ORTHODOXY—HAVE PROVEN TO BE THE GRAVEYARD OF YOUR IMPERIALIST TYRANNY!
HEAR THE CRIES, MR BUSH! HEAR THE ANGUISHED CRIES OF THE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF INNOCENT CIVILIANS WHO DIED FOR YOUR DREAM OF A PIPELINE—THE BLOOD OF BEAUTIFUL BRONZED AFGHAN CHILDREN STAINING YOUR WARMONGERING FISTS OF GREED, THEIR BEWILDERED GREEN EYES OPEN AND IMPLORING IN DEATH’S FINAL HAUNT, VISIONS THAT SHALL TROUBLE THE REMAINDER OF YOUR DRUNKEN, COKED-UP DAYS (WHERE—LIKE LADY MACBETH—YOU WILL BEG FOR FORGIVENESS FROM A FRAUDULENT GOD WHO WILL TURN HIS SEMITIC BACK ON YOU)!
SHAME, MR BUSH! SHAME ON YOU!
…Or maybe not. Because sometimes, it seems, arrogance has its upside—and as Dizzy Dean once famously said, “it ain’t braggin’ if you really done it.”
Reached for comment, “cartoonist” Ted Rall dismissed the poll numbers as “pure neothuglican propaganda”—then pulled out a set of colored pencils and drew Condi Rice as an enormous Ape gripping Cindy Sheehan in her massive black paw while trying to swat down doves of peace from atop the Empire State Building.
****
(h/t Allah)
I read about this poll on another blog, and I immediately thought of an all-caps loony rant from Jeff Goldstein’s leftist alter-ego. I clicked over here, and sure ‘nuff…!
What branding you’ve done for yourself, sir!
CHIMPIRE!
That 90% unfavorable for Osama is higher than they’d get if they polled the people on my block (an undisclosed, crazy-rich, crazy-“blue,” all-white (even the NBA player) location).
I’m not even kidding.
Another elephant to add to the pile
With Ted Rall’s “talent”, how would anyone know it was Condi Rice?…
Let me predict the lefty response:
“But look at the opium trade!”
“We’ve failed!”
Budt don’t you know that the left supported and endorsed the war in Afghanistan? It’s that illegal and immoral war in Iraq that kills hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis that they protest.
Their response to this poll is: “See, this was the right war and look what happens when you do it the right way”, forgetting all of the negatives they spun.
Ah, indeed.
It would be nice if I wasn’t so pathetically lazy so that I could go back and look up exactly what the majority of the left said about Afghanistan prior to the invasion.
“Graveyard of empires”
“Brutal Afghan winter”
“Millions of starving Afghan children”
“Inflaming the Arab (sic) street”
“Musharaff won’t last 2 weeks.”
“100,000 protest in the streets of Pakistan. Next week, a million. (the count was closer to 10,000)”
“The Northern Alliance is as bad as the Taliban”
“All those Stinger missiles we gave them in the 80s will shoot our own planes down.”
Feel free to add your own…
Oh, the brutal brutality of the Afghan winter…
http://weather.yahoo.com/forecast/AFXX0003_f.html
Actually, it’s more like, “But look at the opium tra…whoa.”
Hell, it’s warmer in Kabul than here in Cass Lake…maybe I need a change of scenery.
Hey Jeff. ( More Klonopin!) The truth, hmmm…how come the media missed this story the last four years? They’ve got dozens–once hundreds–of reporters in Afghanistan and now suddenly it’s ‘news’, even if barely reported, that the Afghans love us. Bloggers, including Samizdata, Arthur Chenktoff and Instapundit’s Afghan correspondents have been telling us this for years.
FzzzzZZZTTT.
You know good and well he has neither the talent nor the wit to come up with a cartoon that good.
If he actually did a cartoon like this (sort of like the monkeys typing out the complete works of Shakespeare)he’ll be sure to label the characters in a crudely drawn box.
Dude! You know a white NBA player?
There’s a few too many strawmen around here. Very few mainstream “leftists” had any problem with the Afghan invasion. Most wrote that we should have finished the job on bin Laden and the Taliban rather than abandoning the mission for the insane adventure in Iraq.
As for anyone who thinks they would rather live in Kabul than Cass Lake, be my guest. Had we committed a quarter of the resources wasted in Iraq to Afghanistan, we could have made a modern Islamic oasis, instead of another (yes, heroin-funded) failed state. A successful Afghanistan would have been a real propaganda victory against the terrorists. Instead, we played into bin Laden’s hands by attacking another muslim country.
Jim,
Did you even read TomB’s post. Did you even read a newspapaer during the Afghan invasion? Did you read what Ted Rall said about the Afghan invasion. Did you read what Michael Moore said about the Afghan invasion? Can you read?
The hysterical scare caps make the post. Love it. It almost feels like a genuine lefty screed…
That Strawman Wand you got there might work great when you and your little friends get together, Goodgulf, but it won’t work here.
Well, at the risk of fitting the stereotype as outlined by comments above I am one person who was anti-Iraq war but pro-Afghan war. We do exist. I am pleased that there is positive news out of Afghanistan, I am also pleased when I hear positive news out of Iraq – that doesn’t mean that I think it was handled correctly (latter not former).
I can’t and don’t pretend to speak for everyone on the ‘left’ I only speak for myself.
RLS:
Jim:
BINGO! WE HAVE A WINNER!
To quote one of the great works of modern cinema: “Baby! You is so talented! And they is so dumb!”
JDM, I caught the “Bored of the Rings” reference.
We are so old.
I remember looking at that at the time, and thinking “Fuck me. That’s Colorado weather.”
In that Ted Rall drawing, did Condi, shall we say, test the melons?
I god guts—no braims!!
TW: mind.
Seeing things like the above poll cited, makes the time I spent working in Parwan, Kapisa and Kabul provinces all worth it – HIG rocket attacks aside.
I has a feeling that any poll would draw such numbers – but it is always good to see it in pixels.
Being the Instapundit’s Afghan Correspondent for a year also is what led me to start blogging. Bonus, huh?
Oh, hell, your rant is so good I won’t even say anything.
Uh Jim, bullshit.
Those memes I mentioned didn’t write themselves.
They were everywhere before Kabul fell (and even afterwards).
The only reason you “support” Afghanistan is because you have a new whipping boy in Iraq.
The US stop “playing” into the hands of terrorists following 9-11.
Bin Laden is on the run and in hiding. Al Queda Lts. are captured or killed regularly. The Taliban scattered. Hussein is gone.
Yes, clearly, Bin Laden and the islamofacists have the upper hand. Perhaps we should surrender ?
Help reduce the number, Jim: stay away.
No true Scotsmen, either.
Here’s a hint: the word “logistics” doesn’t just refer to the school debate team.
After reading that rant, I almost really started to hate Bush myself…
The US troop presence in Muslim countries causes resentment and breeds terrorism.
But we needed more troops, not fewer, to create a “modern Islamic oasis” in Afghanistan.
So we needed to breed more terrorism in Afghanistan to succeed there.
Also, Afghanistan is now a failed state—not like it was under Taliban rule. That’s why the Afghan people want the Taliban back. Hmmm? What’s that? They don’t? Dammit, why don’t they listen to the Bush-haters to find out what’s best for them??!!
Also also, a successful Iraq is a “waste,” but “a successful Afghanistan would have been a real propaganda victory against the terrorists?” Discuss.
The country had been ruled by the Soviets since 1979, then endured a civil war for some twenty years, then endured the Taliban for a few years more. I bet post-Katrina New Orleans looks like Mecca to them.
My, how the standards have fallen. Bush was meant to “democratize the entire Middle-East.” Now, conservatives want to give him credit for making the armpit of Asia a little more bearable. Bravo, Mr. President! Mission Accomplished!
Oh, and another point for Jim: ANSWER, et. al. began organizing anti-war marches within hours of 9/11. The first protests were, AFAICR, the very next weekend.
Now, I’m sure you’ll try to classify ANSWER, et. al. as “out of the mainstream”, but the reality is that the “mainstream” opposition to the war—in both Afghanistan and Iraq—gladly marched alongside ANSWER, took up their cries, and supported their message.
The talking points TomB listed may have their origins in ANSWER, et. al., but they were mouthed by “mainstream” leftists, too. I’ve got a quote from Robert Byrd saying we’d been in Afghanistan too long, with no idea of what victory will look like, from February of 2002!
Oh, one thing TomB forgot—the supposed need to halt offensive operations during Ramadan.
Jim, you were talking about strawmen?
Dude, even before the Taliban were removed, the poorest town in the US was incomparably wealthy compared to the people in Afghanistan. They probably would have even jumped at the chance to move to Gary, Indiana.
So no progress should ever be noted until complete success is achieved?
Robert, I also forgot the infamous “Afghan pipeline” we invaded them to build.
Say, IVV, for future reference, snarky comments are so much better when they actually have a point.
Other than that little issue, you really hit it outta the park with that “Mission Accomplished” line. Man, did I get a chuckle about that.
TW: good, as in “good one”
Dude…
while we’re at it…
The point, my discerning friend, is that Goldstein titled this post “[The President’s]smirky rodeo ride through history.” That implies to me that our host believes the President will be looked upon, with the hindsight of history, as a Good Thing.
My argument is that at one time, such historical signifigance was to come on the heels of Bush “democratizing the entire Middle East” – a region, which, you may be aware, has given us some troubles the past fifty years or so.
Now, it seems, the bar has been set so low that making an absolutely devastated country, which has seen thirty consecutive years of war, somewhat more bearable is cause for deification.
Prediction: in the next year or so, Goldstein publishes a post titled “[The President’s]smirky rodeo ride through history – 2”, followed by an article that notes how polled Iraqis indicate that having the electricity on for more than three hours a day has made their lives better.
You mean 19, not 2.
Again, IVV:
So no progress should ever be noted until complete success is achieved?
Could you, perhaps, point to where Bush, or anybody in the administration for that matter, stated that their aim was “democratizing the entire Middle East�
You see, since that isn’t what anybody has said, and you are basing your entire argument on that point, you are offering up at strawman. That is what that means, vinny.
See, IVV, we’re just not as nuanced as you. It takes a megabrain like yours to concede that things are better while simultaneously claiming that’s not a “Good Thing.”
By the way, just love the bitchy mockery through capitalization. I think the Kerry ‘08 campaign could use a Brilliant Thinker like you.
Hey, if Keifer Sutherland can do it in “24”…..
This is taking entirely too long.
BECAUSE OF THE FATTED CALF!
Yeah, Bush has been president for over five whole years now—why hasn’t he entirely reversed a few millenia worth of history yet? What a failure!
I think this President has set the standard for noting progress before complete success has been achieved.
The question here is of legacy. By these standards, Slick Willie McRapist deserves a cum-stained cigar munch through history for freeing Bosnia and Serbia from Milosevic, no?
IVV, alas, that little line of yours backfires in your face like all of your lines have.
Despite Clinton and the United Nations, Kosovo still hasn’t reached the state of self government as has the “ungovernable” Afghanistan.
IVV,
With the “Mission Accomplished” banner, what he did say was that it was the end of Major Combat Operations – Phase III Operations in military parlance. That’s not the same as the end of the whole shooting match; in this case the Phase IV Operations turned out to be a lot messier than anticipated.
So, by way of what appears to be a misstatement on your part, you end up inadvertantly being correct. President Bush did claim (and rightly so) progress. He did not claim – try as some people might to stuff the words into his mouth – claim complete success or victory.
As folks are want to point out sometimes, words actually mean things. Imputing onto the President a meaning different than the one he conveyed is not an action in keeping with the higher standards of argumentation that I hope govern discussion in a democracy.
Best,
BRD
The question here is of legacy.
Dude, isn’t it a tad bit early to be ruminating on Bush’s legacy?
By these standards, Slick Willie McRapist deserves a cum-stained cigar munch through history for freeing Bosnia and Serbia from Milosevic, no?
Ease up on the Night Train, pal.
Bravo, can you point me to something that discusses the phased model you’re using?
Not quibbling, just want to learn more.
90% IS NOT HIGH ENOUGH!!
I DEMAND THE INCOMPETENT CHIMPEROR BE IMPEACHED!!
BECAUSE OF THE CHIMPOCRISY!!
freeing Bosnia and Serbia from Milosevic, no?
I thought the Kosovo action was a good idea, but Serbians kicked out Milosevic out of power in Serbia, not Clinton.
And that only because they thought Milosevic should have won the war.
Vinny, I’m still waiting for you to point to where Bush, or anybody in the administration for that matter, stated that their aim was “democratizing the entire Middle Eastâ€Â?
Ah yes, the successes in Bosnia and Serbia. Can I get a Haiti in there, too? Clinton’s “Mission Accomplished” was only if the polls moved upwards. Old Osama “The Prisoner To End The War On Terrorism” Bin Laden even leveled the “paper tiger” nomenclature at the U.S. because of Clinton’s lilly-livered cut-and-run strategery.
Did ANSWER approve of the Unilateral Bosnian Imperialist Invasion by the U.S., or did they applaud the First Black President for firebombing the crap out of ‘em?
Oh, c’mon. TomB, if the goalposts are moved out of the stadium, over the hill, through the woods, and underneath the porch at Grandma’s house, then that failure Bush will never succeed.
Holy shit, that’s funny! Definitely tops all other CAPS rants here.
Afghanistan: more pro-America than America.
Jim writes
There’s a few too many strawmen around here. Very few mainstream “leftists†had any problem with the Afghan invasion.
Yet, anyone want to take bets This Citizen’s Tribunal won’t be changing their first “indictment” count anytime soon?
Nope, no leftists there, nothing to see, move along.
Charlie,
He doesn’t explicitly discuss the model he’s using directly, but he did use the phrase “Major Combat Operations” which has a specific technical meaning, within the warfighting context – i.e. the end of Phase III Operations.
In the interests of laziness, I’ll just excerpt an earlier comment to an earlier PW Post in which I discuss this point in some greater detail:
On a broader note, if you’re compelled to keep reading, this model has some rather interesting ties with Complex Adaptive Systems theory.
Among other things, there is a very distinct possiblity that Afghanistan is going as well as it is only because we’re engaged in Iraq. There is a possibility that the shift of focus to Iraq has created the background stability needed to pursue our mission in Afghanistan. Had we not gone into Iraq, the brighter focus on Afghanistan would have made that the primary battleground, rather than a side theater.
Regards,
BRD
Oh please, TomB, as if you didn’t know:
Bush shares dream of Middle East democracy
“PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: The establishment of a free Iraq at the heart of the Middle East will be a watershed event in the global democratic revolution.”
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east/july-dec03/democracy_11-07.html
If you don’t beleive the President, Sir Victor Davis Hanson would like to slap you upside the head:
“While George W. Bush gets few high marks from Dennis Ross for his relative distance from the minutiae that comprise this 800-page book, his larger post-9/11 vision of democratizing the Middle East may do what thousands of shuttle missions by the dutiful and honest Ross could not  if the virus of democracy let loose in Afghanistan and Iraq finally infects the West Bank. After all, the real problem in the Middle East has never been just a few thousand acres of disputed land. Instead, as was true during the Cold War, strife arises from the complete absence on one side of a legitimate government  as well as the subsidized mythologies of Palestinians that they could win from the Jews through suicide murder the honor, prosperity, and victory that they could never otherwise obtain through outright war or endemic tribal dictatorship.”
http://www.policyreview.org/dec04/hanson.html
So Iraq contains the entire Middle East?
Is that like the way Niger once contained all of Africa?
So, what is it, wine-drinking truth-speaker: democracy in Middle East–good or bad?
IVV,
Again the word choice here is important. Had the President said “democratize the entire Middle East” then that would have had a unacceptably destabilizing impact involving things like invasions of Yemen and Qatar, not to mention Syria and Saudi Arabia.
As much as there is a bit of tendency to disregard the “Arab Street”, I don’t think that there is any serious commentator who thinks that insurgents getting shot in Mecca by 18yr old Marines is going to go over well.
Regards,
BRD
From that bit Darleen quoted:
So, completely screw up the unit under your direct command and supervision, and you become a star witness in a leftist show trial?
Ritter’s in there, too.
Despite Clinton and the United Nations, Kosovo still hasn’t reached the state of self government as has the “ungovernable†Afghanistan.
Uh-huh.
“Insecurity remained a key feature in Afghanistan in 2005. Although the country continued to receive strong donor support, humanitarian aid and reconstruction work remained hampered by poor security, particularly in the south and east. Despite the deployment of some 20,000 US troops in the country, along with the presence of an international protection force, largely confined to the capital, 2005 was the bloodiest since the end of the Taliban in late 2001.
At least 1,600 people died in conflict-related violence last year. Ninety-one US troops died in combat and through accidents in 2005, more than double the total for the previous year.” […]
“Although the national assembly election was a success, prospects for Kabul to extend its authority to the provinces and take on the powerful warlords, growing richer on the proceeds of the lucrative opium trade, do not look hopeful.”
I’ll restate your assertion vinny, so all can see what a weasel you are:
Now we see vinny trying to weasel out of his insanely stupid assertion by completely changing the subject.
Yes vinny, Bush wanted to establish democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan (er, “mission accomplished” shall we say?) with the hope that the “virus” would spread throughout the rest of the area.
PiatoR,
Interesting article. Sounds very much like I would expect a country on the mend after 20 some years of warfare to sound – picking up the pieces one at a time.
Out of curiosity, have you heard much about what’s caused the uptick in violence in 2005?
Thanks,
BRD
So, how is Kosovo doing, PIATOR?
THANKS PIATOR, I WIN!!!
In the 4th post I said:
You’ve proven me right.
God you people are so transparent.
Also as per the PIPA study..
“Afghans do not, however, feel positively about Pakistan in general and specifically believe that, contrary to its claims, it is not pursuing the Taliban. Asked, “Do you think the Pakistan government is allowing the Taliban to operate in Pakistan, or is seriously trying to stop the Taliban from operating in Pakistan?†only 21% said they thought that Pakistan is seriously trying to stop the Taliban from operating in Pakistan, while two out of three (66%) said they believe the government is allowing the Taliban to operate in Pakistan.”
Not that Afghanistan knows something we don’t..
Noting Katrina remark posted above:
“Afghans express remarkably positive attitudes about how things are going in their country. It should, of course, be noted that over the last several decades, Afghanistan has suffered a tremendous amount of conflict, instability and repression such that their evaluations are likely influenced by comparisons to past conditions. ”
So the conditions ARE improving for Afghanistan..
..Compared to a year prior to the invasion ..
Here
Here
and Here..
Shifting rationale for war? Now there’s something new…
“…So I don’t know where he is. You know, I just don’t spend that much time on him, Kelly, to be honest with you.”
From the Wikipedia entry on Kosovo:
Kosovo’s international status is anomalous in that although it is a Serbian province within the State Union of Serbia and Montenegro, administration is presently conducted by the United Nations with little or no involvement on the part of the Serbia government (under Security Council resolution 1244 of 10 June 1999; see Security Council Resolutions 1999). The government of the province is the responsibility of the United Nations Mission in Kosovo (UNMIK). Under the terms of the Kumanovo agreement and subsequent UN Security Council Resolution 1244, which ended the Kosovo War, security is provided by the Kosovo Force (KFOR), which is led by NATO and is answerable to UNMIK.
UNMIK has so far established a provisional assembly, provisional government and the office of provisional president, which are legislative and executive bodies under UNMIK’s control. Control of security, justice and external affairs are still under full UNMIK control. Elections for the Assembly of Kosovo were held in November 2001 and again in 2004. Ibrahim Rugova was elected as president in March 2002. The seat of the assembly, government and president is in Prishtina/Pristina. So far, the parliament has enacted and UNMIK approved a constitutional framework, customs code, and two criminal codes.
Kosovo not only does not have self-government, but no one plans to see that it gets it any time soon.
Afghanistan elected its own government, without outside interference, last year–ending the transitional period and becoming fully self-governed.
Why did you skip the first three paragraphs of the article you linked, Phoeney?
Uh-huh!
Kosovo not only does not have self-government, but no one plans to see that it gets it any time soon.
This may have something to do with the teeny tiny fact that there has been no actual mandate for Kosovo to be a sovereign country without a prior political settlement (see section 10 here). You are making the argument that since Mexico is a country and California is a state, California is doing worse than Mexico.
Wingnuts – stupid as always.
PiatoR,
Would Somalia be a better example for nation-building during the 90’s?
BRD
So Kosovo is a state in the new nation of Limbo?
Just when you think he can’t get any more absurd.
Phoenny: This may have something to do with the teeny tiny fact that there has been no actual mandate for Kosovo to be a sovereign country without a prior political settlement (see section 10 here).
And this state of affairs exists because…?
Could it be because the UN is in charge with its usual incompetence and inability to reach decisions?
TomB—We gotta start running a PIATOR pool…
How about a drinking game, every red uh-huh you take a shot, and a double if on a close read it actually hurts his point.
uh-huh.
And everybody drinks if it’s a link to something meant to change the subject.
And this state of affairs exists because…?
Because the entire Security Council (including, uh, the US and the UK) wanted it that way. \
So Kosovo is a state in the new nation of Limbo?
No, it is still a de jure part of Serbia and Montenegro.
Jesus, you people are stupid.
Damn, a guy could get VERY drunk hanging out around here…
From Phoeny’s link:
Limbo is a common synonym over here for an indeterminate state. If it is status is to be determined, it is not an established part of anything yet.
Doubles all around.
Phoenician,
Its pretty hilarious to watch you call SPQR stupid when you’ve just done a better job of showing your own stupidity with your own links.
Afghanistan represents twice the progress of Kosovo in half the time in a country no one ever thought was ever going to be governable at all.
Grow up, son. Fat, dumb and living on Mars is no way to go through life.
Limbo is a common synonym over here for an indeterminate state. If it is status is to be determined, it is not an established part of anything yet.
That’s perhaps the dumbest piece of sophistry ever on this blog, and I include Jeff’s championing of the Divine Right of George Bush to ignore the law, and the bullshit attempts to redefine torture.
Kosovo is, and still remains, a de jure part of the former FRY. There have been no elections for a national government there because there has been no mandate yet to turn it into a sovereign country. It is not part of a new nation of Limbo. It is not in an indeterminate state regarding sovereignty, although governance is another matter. Comparing the lack of elections to the elections in Afghanistan is a mind-numbingly foolish comparison.
You lot were wrong. Again. Deal with it.
Or continue with your sophistry as you will. Wingnuts are so amusing when they try to backpedal.
Well, y’know, there’s no mandate for Kurdistan to become a separate state absent a political settlement, either. It’s still a de jure part of Iraq… something is different here. Like, whether or not there’s a push for a political settlement, perhaps?
Actually, Kosovo is something new. PiaTor and others hope it’s the beginning of the ImperiUN, which they approve of totally because the likes of Castro, Chavez, the Sudanese, etc. have input into its methods of ruling.
Regards,
Ric
TW: the Supreme Soviet of the United Nations disposes… and the AI is getting scary.
I am not backpedaling, I’m trying to scrape this shit off my shoe.
Once again Kiwi in a time of Aussies embarrasses itself by posting an “uhhuh” link that disproves its own case. And then tries to change the subject. How many times have we seen this? uh-huh. You’re a funny dude.
No. . .
I’m actually making the case that if the U.S. federal government took no part in the government of California (and the state government also deliberately made no effort to facilitate voting by Californian citizens in federal elections), and if–furthermore–an unelected (by anyone, not just the citizens of the great state of California) foreign government had veto power over every decision made by the state government as well as troops on the ground within California which neither the state nor federal government was in any position to ask to leave–this would indeed mean that your average Angeleno was indeed blessed with (let’s say it together, now!) a lesser degree of self-determination than your average citizen of Kabul.
Better?
I can of course repeat this at even greater length, if you like, and explain any of the longer words which you may find confusing.
Not to interrupt the amusement at hand – and PiaToR makes such a cute pinata, no? – but point of information:
Witnesses will include Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski
Wasn’t that ass demoted? Or am I misremembering?
You’re right. She was demoted. I don’t recall what she ended up as, but it appears she’s now an officer in the 3rd Moonbat Brigades.
Dear All,
I hate to be a pest, but PiatoR has (underneath all that graciousness and civility) an actual point. Kosovo isn’t supposed to be independent. Maybe.
Here’s the deal: recent UNHCR surveys indicate approximately 14 theoretical variations describing the political future of Kosovo per resident.
Right now, the options being discussed include the following: Remaining part of Serbia. Remaining part of Yugoslavia. Remaining part of one of the two above, but as an autonomous region. Becoming independent. Joining Albania. Joining Macedonia. Trying to sign on as Laker Girls. Creating an Albanian-themed version of the Sopranos.
So, at this point, it’s not entirely certain if the job of folks is to actually evolve the political situation beyond it’s carefully cultivated cloudiness.
Thus, at the end of the day, it’s a poor comparison to Iraq or Afghanistan for that reason.
Somalia, however, might be a more appropriate comparison.
Thanks,
BRD
That was excactly my point: it is in LIMBO.
And I think the comparison was in the way the UN handles things as opposed to the US. The fact that they intend for Kosovo to be a fucked up, non-state doesn’t mitigate the fact that it is a fucked up non-state.
B Moe,
I don’t think we’re that far apart on this. I think it is fair to say that the intervention in Kosovo was not intended to do anything other than preserve the status quo. Or as you refer to, limbo.
So, I won’t slam the UN for having failed to move it out of limbo, but it seems that your objection might be more closely related to the concept of intervening with no longer term plan other than status quo.
Cheers,
BRD
Well, y’know, there’s no mandate for Kurdistan to become a separate state absent a political settlement, either. It’s still a de jure part of Iraq… something is different here. Like, whether or not there’s a push for a political settlement, perhaps?
Quite right – and you’ll note that there’s been no election in it as a sovereign nation either. Now, there may or may not be a political settlement later on down the track which establishes the nation of Kurdistan (and, frankly, they deserve their own nation), but it ain’t happening yet.
That was excactly my point: it is in LIMBO.
No, it is not in limbo, you moron.
To give an analogy, if you put your house up for sale, you might have two or three potential buyers. They might be arranging finance, they might be negotiating with you, they might be inspecting the place. In the future, they may own it. But ownership now is not in limbo – it still belongs to you.
Kosovo may, in the future, become an independent nation, remain a part of the former FRY with considerable autonomy, be returned to the former FRY as a state. However its sovereignty now is not in limbo – it is still part of the territory of the former FRY.
So, we can say that Kosovo has a specific status right now, but the future of Kosovo is quite uncertain indeed?
Obviously not the point. The fact that Kosovo remains, on a purely technical level, a province of Serbia/Montenegro does not obscure the fact that–first of all–the government of Serbia/Montenegro takes no actual part in governing Kosovo–second of all–the only elected body which actually does have some say in the actual administration of Kosovo is still subject in every respect to the final approval of unelected UNMIK officials.
The citizens of Kosovo, in practice, de facto, do not live in a self-governing republic, regardless of the fact that, on paper, they legally, de jure, form part of a semi-respectable independent republic called Serbia/Montenegro. And no one, furthermore, has the slightest idea when or how this current unacceptable state of affairs will end. Sounds like Limbo to me.
Obviously not the point.
Quite obviously the point when wingnuts start making ignorant remarks about the lack of national elections in the place.
So, we can say that Kosovo has a specific status right now, but the future of Kosovo is quite uncertain indeed?
I hate to point this out to you, but the future of every political unit is uncertain.