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Imperial powers? (UPDATED)

Powerline’s John Hinderaker has a long and meticulously argued post that agrees in large measure with my earlier post, and with the assessments of Messrs Cass Sunstein, Richard Posner, and Clinton associate attorney general John Schmidt, From “On the Legality of the NSA Electronic Intercept Program”:

[…] Finally, in 2002, the United States Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review decided Sealed Case No. 02-001. This case arose out of a provision of the Patriot Act that was intended to break down the “wall” between law enforcement and intelligence gathering. The Patriot Act modified Truong’s “primary purpose” test by providing that surveillance under FISA was proper if intelligence gathering was one “significant” purpose of the intercept. In the course of discussing the constitutional underpinnings (or lack thereof) of the Truong test, the court wrote:

The Truong court, as did all the other courts to have decided the issue, held that the President did have inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches to obtain foreign intelligence information. It was incumbent upon the court, therefore, to determine the boundaries of that constitutional authority in the case before it. We take for granted that the President does have that authority and, assuming that is so, FISA could not encroach on the President’s constitutional power. The question before us is the reverse, does FISA amplify the President’s power by providing a mechanism that at least approaches a classic warrant and which therefore supports the government’s contention that FISA searches are constitutionally reasonable.

That is the current state of the law. The federal appellate courts have unanimously held that the President has the inherent constitutional authority to order warrantless searches for purposes of gathering foreign intelligence information, which includes information about terrorist threats. Furthermore, since this power is derived from Article II of the Constitution, the FISA Review Court has specifically recognized that it cannot be taken away or limited by Congressional action.

That being the case, the NSA intercept program, which consists of warrantless electronic intercepts for purposes of foreign intelligence gathering, is legal.

It’s worth noting that all of the cases cited above involved warrantless searches inside the United States. The NSA program, in contrast, involves international communications only, and the intercepts take place at least in part, and perhaps wholly, outside the United States. Thus, the NSA case is even clearer than the cases that have already upheld Presidential power […]

[…] There is no mystery about the legality of the NSA intercept program. It is intended to capture foreign intelligence information, including information about potential terrorist threats, and as such, every federal court that has addressed the issue has held that it is within the inherent constitutional power of the President as Commander in Chief. Everything else is immaterial.

This brings us back where we started, i.e., the Constitution. The only constitutional limitation on the President’s power to intercept communications by Americans for national security purposes is that such intercepts be “reasonable.” Is it reasonable for the administration to do all it can to identify the people who are communicating with known terrorists overseas, via the terrorists’ cell phones and computers, and to learn what terrorist plots are being hatched by those persons? Is it reasonable to do so even when—rather, especially when–some portion of those communications come from people inside the United States? I don’t find it difficult to answer those questions; nor, if called upon to do so, would the Supreme Court.

There are, of course, liberal law professors who would like the law to be different from what it is. They are free to develop theories according to which the Supreme Court, should it someday address this issue directly, would rule as they wish. But the administration is entitled to rely on the law as it currently exists. And there is simply no question about the fact that under the Constitution and all controlling precedents, the NSA intercept program is legal.

[h/t Jim S]

That last bit takes aim at arguments like the ones being raised by Glenn Greenwald, et al,—that is, by those “who would like the law to be different from what it is”—and it is the only argument necessary against the hyperbolic claim that the President has exceeded his constitional authority:  no matter how much you wish it were so—and no matter how much you believe that it should be so—this much is clear:  no he has not

The checks on such powers, of course, are that Congress can complain about what they claim to be executive overreach; they can hold up legislation; they can attempt to draft a Constitutional amendment that abridges the President’s powers, giving the Congress control over the Presidency and disrupting the sytem of coequal branches; and of course, they control the purse strings of the war, which directly impacts the President’s AUMF.

****

updateNSA / DoJ defends itself to Congress (h/t Ace)

The government’s argument is consistent with the arguments made by Sunstein, Hinderaker, and others—but it expands the point to claim legal authority within the FISA:

The President’s authorization of targeted electronic surveillance by the NSA is also consistent with the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (“FISA”). Section 25 11(2)(f) oftitle 18 provides, as relevant here, that the procedures of FISA and two chapters of title 18 “shall be the exclusive means by which electronic surveillance.. . may be conducted.” Section 109 ofFISA, in turn, makes it unlawful to conduct electronic surveillance, “except as authorized by statute.” 50 U.S.C. 5 1809(a)(l). Importantly, section 109’s exception for electronic surveillance “authorized by statute” is broad, especially considered in the context of surrounding provisions. Sec 18 U.S.C. 5 251 l(1) (“Except as otherwise specifically provided in this chapter any person who–(a) intentionally intercepts . . . any wire, oral, or electronic communication[] . . . shall be punished . . . .”) (emphasis added); id. 4 25 11(2)(e) (providing a defense to liability to individuals “conduct[ing] electronic surveillance, . . . as authorized by thatAct[FISA]”) (emphasis added).

By expressly and broadly excepting from its prohibition electronic surveillance undertaken “as authorized by statute,” section 109 of FISA permits an exception to the “procedures” of FISA referred to in 18 U.S.C. a 251 1(2)(f) where authorized by another statute, even if the other authorizing statute does not specifically amend section 25 11(2)(f). The AUMF satisfies section 109’s requirement for statutory authorization of electronic surveillance, just as a majority of the Court in Hanzdi concluded that it satisfies the requirement in 18 U.S.C. 9 4001(a) that no U.S. citizen be detained by the United States “except pursuant to an Act of Congress.” See Hamdi 542 U.S. at 519 (explaining that “it is of no moment that the AUMF does not use specific language of detention”); sec id. at 587 (Thomas, J., dissenting).

Some might suggest that FISA could be read to require that a subsequent statutory authorization must come in the form of an amendment to FISA itself. But under established principles of statutory construction, the AUMF and FISA must be constued in harmony to avoid any potential conflict between FISA and the President’s Article I1 authority as Commander in Chief. See, e.g., Zadvydas v . Davis, 533 U.S. 678, 689 (2001); INSv. Sf. Cvr, 533 U.S. 289, 300 (2001). Accordingly. any ambiguity as to whether the AUMF is a statute that satisfies the requirements of FISA and allows electronic surveillance in the conflict with al Qaeda without complying with FISA procedures must be resolved in favor ofan interpretation that is consistent with the President’s long-recognized authority.

In my previous posts on executive authority under FISA, I noted that I was never convinced that the Executive had simply circumvented the statutes or had otherwise violated them.  My analysis (and that of James Robbins) were a bit off-target on the specific exemptions the DoJ is claiming, but we were right that the government saw in the maze of legalese an exemption that they could argue.

And as I noted early on, suggestions that the President had “clearly” broken the law was NOT at all clear to the legal review undertaken before the program was authorized.

********

update:  a response to Glenn Greenwald here

80 Replies to “Imperial powers? (UPDATED)”

  1. mojo says:

    Privacy? What privacy?

    You think muzzling the NSa is gonna make your life easier? Guess again. It’s not a legal problem, it’s technical. And you are not the only one with problems keeping information private.

    A case in point:

    The FBI has located a website, http://www.locatecell.com, which sells detailed cellular and land line phone information.  The availability of detailed telephone records over the Internet to anyone willing to pay represents a very significant backstopping concern and is a sobering example of the amount of information that any target can easily collect on an undercover phone number (cell or fixed).  The FBI tested the service, buying the subscription information and ordering the last 100 calls made (during the most current billing cycle) from an undercover cell phone.  The price: $160.00.  Less than three hours later, accurate information was reported back via e-mail.  For officers who sometimes call home or the office on their UC phone this could be particularly problematic.

    Welcome to the Twenty-first century, folks.

    Check your privacy at the door.

    SB: world

    all around the

  2. OL' SPARKY says:

    Onstitutional authority?

  3. SeanH says:

    No, no, Jeff.  If you quit drinking the party Kool-Aid you’ll see that the president was clearly assuming imperial powers.  I mean, checking every month and a half with both other branches of government to make sure it was still OK with them if he exercised his war powers?  Fucking fascist!!!

  4. Ace says:

    You mean a Bushilterburton spin doctor actually laid out relevant cases and all the facts??!

    Damn you Nazi’s… tongue wink

  5. wishbone says:

    The mental leap that is required to make the administration’s actions into something monstrous and threatening is even more monstrous and threatening.

    I’m trying HARD to understand some of the saner voices on the left on this one, but you have to assume the worst of motives to make those arguments work.

    Seriously, am I missing something here?

  6. Ace says:

    [link not rendering; see update]

  7. Steven Donegal says:

    It wouldn’t be the first time that Hindraker has been wrong.

    But in any event, is it really true that the once “war” is declared, that Congress has no constitutional authority to limit the Executive’s inherent power to prosecute that war?  I do not believe that to be true.  If it is, then is the Geneva Convention merely an aspirational document that can be violated if the Executive believes it to be necessary?  Why did the Executive fight so hard against the McCain torture amendment, which would be clearly unconstitutional under this theory?

    I do not think that what the NSA did in this particular instance is all that controversial frankly (although we certainly don’t have enough facts to make an intelligent judgment on that point–this largely becomes a matter of how much you trust the Administration.) However, I do find the assertion that Congress cannot limit the Executive’s war powers in any way to be a dangerous position, particularly in light of the fact that this particular war will continue for many years.  I also find it troubling that evidence developed by this type of warrantless surveillance probably cannot be used criminally against a citizen, it can be used to determine whether a citizen is an “enemy combatant” and thus able to be held in detention indefinitely.  I don’t trust any politician of either party with that much power.

  8. wishbone says:

    And Ace just proved my point with the Justice letter to Congress.

    The program is narrow, specific, and LEGAL.

    Now will come the inevitable demand for more details, the administration will ignore the demands because the information is CLASSIFIED, and then charges of stonewalling will begin.

    Must not grind teeth into nothingness…

  9. tongueboy says:

    The checks on such powers, of course, are that Congress can complain about what they claim to be executive overreach; they can hold up legislation; they can attempt to draft a Constitutional amendment that abridges the President’s powers, giving the Congress control over the Presidency and disrupting the sytem of coequal branches; and of course, they control the purse strings of the war, which directly impacts the President’s AUMF.

    The minority party, between alternating dogwhistle blasts of “Bush’s war on civil liberties”, “This war was concocted in Crawford!”, and “HALLIBURTON!”, has yet to find the time to push Congress to exercise any of these options. I am baffled why this should be.

    BAA HAA HAA HAA HAA BAA HAA HAA HAA WOOOO HOOOO WOOOO HOOOO Wooo Hooo Hee Hee Hee hee hee *gasp* heh heh *phew* *snort*

    I don’t play much poker.

  10. SteveMG says:

    is it really true that the once “war” is declared, that Congress has no constitutional authority to limit the Executive’s inherent power to prosecute that war?

    They may cut off or limit the funding. They may make explicit requirements that for funding, the President may not do “A” or “B” or he can only do “A” or “B”.

    E.g., “No monies may be spent to monitor communications of Americans without judicial approval” or “No monies may be spent on military operations in Lower Slobovia” or “No monies may be spent for the incarceration of Americans without public trials” and so forth.

    It seems to me that allowing the Commander in Chief to spy on foreign agents who are here waging war on us without judicial approval is hardly an example of Caesarism. This is for intelligence purposes only. None of the information can be used in criminal proceedings. It would be considered illegally obtained evidence.

    Is there a risk of abuse? Sure, I think Jeff and most others who support this action recognize this. After all, whenever the state exercises its power there is a danger of misuse.

    But the risk emanating from Islamic terrorists is greater than the risk from warrantless monitoring of communications. In either case, I can’t guarantee that something bad won’t happen.

    But then again, as the saying goes, you’re not guaranteed tomorrow.

    SMG

  11. Ace says:

    Jeff Goldstein,

    thanks for fixing the link!

  12. tongueboy says:

    From the DOJ letter:

    As an initial matter, I emphasize a few points. The President stated that these activities are “ crucial to our national security.” The President further explained that “the unauthorized disclosure of this effort damages our national security and puts our citizens at risk. Revealing classified

    information is illegal, alerts our enemies, and endangers our country.” These critical national

    security activities remain classified. All United States laws and policies governing the protection

    and nondisclosure of national security information. including the information relating to the activities described by the President, remain in full force and effect. The unauthorized disclosure of classified infomiation violates federal criminal law. The Government may provide further classified briefings to the Congress on these activities in an appropriate manner. Any such briefings will be conducted in a manner that will not endanger national security.

    Why in the world would the DOJ feel it necessary to insert such a strong caution into an otherwise bland recitation of relevant case law? It’s not as if any of these four esteemed legislators would carelessly, or otherwise, alert this nation’s adversaries of our war-making intentions or contemplate using intelligence information for partisan gain. Again, I am completely baffled.

    But this time, I’m not laughing. It’s three nights before Christmas and I’ve got dreams of Article III Section 3 running through my head.

  13. MF says:

    Steve MG:

    If Congress passed a law denying funding to the NSA program, what would prevent the President from invoking his plenary Article II powers, claiming that the program is essential to the war effort, and then shifting funding from elsewhere?

  14. Cardinals Nation says:

    Boiling point achieved.

    I’ve read quite a bit about this NSA “spying” thing at this site and several others.  Very interesting discussions.  Lots of great debate.  Wonderful legal and academic points to be had.

    And from it all, I’ve come to the conclusion that I just don’t give a shit.

    If George Bush or Bill Clinton or Ronald Reagan…hell, if Hillary Clinton for that matter…decided, as President, that the defense of the Nation was in some measure enhanced by the interception of suspected al Qaeda operatives’ phone calls, well that’s just fine with me.  Didn’t get a warrant?  Again, I don’t give a shit.  The point that all these pants-pissing, hand-wringing, liberal Eastern seaboard jackasses are missing is that no one cares about the privacy rights of an Islamofascist soldier, here or there.  We just don’t.  The NYPD/FBI/CIA could beat the living crap out of him with a rubber hose for days on end for all I care.  He’s the enemy, no matter what his residency status. 

    I feel fairly safe in saying that the vast majority of us would just like to know that our buildings aren’t going to blown up (9/11, Kenya, Tanzania, Mali), that our children won’t be slaughtered in their schools (Breslin, Russia) and that our husbands/wives won’t be massacred on the morning subway commute (Madrid, London).  If our nation’s intelligence services are working to prevent those very real possibilities/probabilities, then let them do their job.

    What this entire discussion boils down to for the liberals is this; them.  It’s all about them.  24 friggin’ hours a day.  It’s all about their rights, all about their feelings, all about their sense of privacy.  It’s all about them and their “alarm” and their feeling a “chilling effect.” When are they going to learn that no one in the intelligence business is the least bit interested in their cell phone calls about straight/gay/lesbian love triangles, quests to score another bag of weed, tax shelters, mid-terms or collection of illegally copied DVDs?  It amazes me how truly self-absorbed one has to be to actually believe that their life is of any interest whatsoever to the Dark Agents of the Federal Government.

    We’re a nation at war.  We’ve got more important things to deal with.

    So, Mr/Ms NYTACLUDNCMetrosexual, pitch in and help, or just simply shut up.

  15. Steven Donegal says:

    I think the DOJ letter is interesting, because it does not assert that FISA is unconstitutional or that the President’s powers can override legislation.  Instead, its main arguments are that the NSA actions were covered by and in compliance with existing statutes.  Which, to wishbone’sw point above, will inevitably lead to demands for further information about the program to assure that it in fact complied with those statutes.  And then something more interesting will come along and this will all be forgotten.

  16. SteveMG says:

    MF:

    If Congress passed a law denying funding to the NSA program, what would prevent the President from invoking his plenary Article II powers, claiming that the program is essential to the war effort, and then shifting funding from elsewhere

    Gee, thanks for an easy one. Can I skip to the math part?

    Boland Amendment redux times a thousand leading to the ultimate constitutional crisis.

    Plenary powers as C-in-C versus plenary powers to raise and appropriate funds. Who wins?

    I have a B.A. in journalism from Syracuse and some additional credits from George Mason University. Not really great credentials for answering this question.

    Anyway, my guess off the absolute top of my head is that since the Constitution is clear about who can fund government operations (Art. I, Section 8), if Congress cuts off the funding, it’s done. President can try to shift funding but Congress can then eliminate funding for those programs or forbid the transfer of the monies.

    Power of the purse (as any married man knows) trumps Field Marshall Bush here. President Ford knows this too since Congress cut off funding for operations in Vietnam when he was C-in-C (different details but the general issue applies).

    I’d guess the President would have to go hat-in-hand raising money for the military operations.

    Lots of guesses.

    SMG

  17. tongueboy says:

    CN,

    But you don’t seem to understand: it isn’t that agents of the intelligence community will abuse the collected information, it’s that Swingin’ Dick Cheney and His Ginormous Package will send his plumbers down to the Watergate to plant bugs to monitor McGovern’s election campaign – er – I mean send Agent Smith down to the NSA in the middle of the night to comb through those millions of phone records to identify the asshole who’s been shorting Halliburton stock as well as the identity of his daughter’s lover.

    But, in all seriousness…

    Well-played. Yes, very well-played.

  18. B Moe says:

    I’m with Cardinals Nation.  This outrage would be a helluva lot more believable if I had heard anything similar when Clinton, Reno and Craig were gang-raping Elian Gonzales.  Instead the silence was deafening, and the last impetus I needed to start looking for a new home.

  19. – The important things for majority of mainstream Americans: “Oh….then the Pres was protecting us… well good… what are the Liberals moaning about now…. Did you take the trash out… is there anything left in the checking account… joey needs to be picked up from the movies at 6:30…. call mom…. Did you remember to charge the cell… What time is the game on… Damn that Kerry guy really does look like Lurch…”

  20. Lew Clark says:

    What is so aggravating is that is not about breaking the law.  It is about GET BUSH.  It has always been about that.  This isn’t about what was done, but who did it.  That is the shame.  The second line of balance of power, the “loyal opposition” and the press, in their mad rush to remove a man that differs with them philosophically, have pulled out every stop and become caricatures.  They don’t honestly believe Bush is evil or power hungry.  He’s just philosophically mistaken.  But they have gone to Madison Avenue style hyperbole because their philosophical arguments have fallen a deaf ears with the electorate.

    Not only is it sad that they have become an impediment to our government functioning in time of war, but, if they really do find the president doing something truly evil, no one, other than those in their echo chamber, will believe them.

  21. tongueboy says:

    CN raises, albeit indirectly, another alarming point: this NSA kerfuffle is the crystalline example of how liberals are so singlemindedly obsessed with preserving every possible avenue of experiencing sensate pleasure that they will even gladly give up the means of protecting themselves from external threats if necessary. Not only that, they will insist that the rest of us give up those means of protection as well. I would suggest that they instead pull a Mormon, so to speak, and move to San Francisco, secede from the United States, and get that utopian experiment going. Please. Before more of us are sacrifice on your altar of radical individualistic hedonism.

  22. Jeff Goldstein says:

    (BUT NO SMOKING ALLOWED!)

  23. The_Real_JeffS says:

    Power of the purse (as any married man knows) trumps Field Marshall Bush here. President Ford knows this too since Congress cut off funding for operations in Vietnam when he was C-in-C (different details but the general issue applies).

    A valid point, SMG.  I spent a year in Kuwait dealing with military construction, a program that is highly scrutinized by Congress.  Granted, it’s not the FISA fiasco, but I can state with utter certainty that Congress keeps those purse strings at close hold at all times.  Failure to follow the budget, as authorized by the pertinent spending bill, is subject to actions (up to and including prosecution) under the Anti-Deficiency Act.  Or to have direct Congressional intervention on other bills.

    DoD and Congress were patient and flexible with the MILCON spending requirements, but the control was near absolute. 

    And if you think Congress wouldn’t dream of jerking around the budget over a proven FISA violation, think again. 

    Bush and Rumsfeld know this beyond all doubt.  I expect that they had their ducks all lined up well before the NYT screwed the pooch on this story.  Not because the Administration was worried about a leak, but because they wanted to follow the law.

  24. Old Dad says:

    tongueboy,

    “radical individualistic hedonism”

    I just Googled it and found a great deal on ebay. There was a warning about potential blindness, unusual body hair, etc.

  25. Ace says:

    Anyone remember when the left breathlessly assured us Bush was raising the terror alert levels to gain political support or to “scare” the public?

    Want to take a stab at where the information came from to raise the threat levels?

  26. Lou says:

    CN,

    Well said, I have been waiting for anyone on the left to come up with any idea about anything, to help our country since 9/11. And the only thing they can think of is bring the troops home and impeach Bush for protecting the country. 

    Go Dodgers

  27. wishbone says:

    Lou,

    You left out don’t invade Afghanistan.

  28. Chris says:

    I was visiting and aquaintance’s blog (extremely libertarian/Democrat) and after getting everyone’s panties in a bunch, the following quote came up in a response…

    “But if they’re listening in on my phone call from home in the US with some crazy Pakistani terrorist, they better damn well have a warrant.”

    Sorry, you’re on your own there, I fucking well hope your phone is tapped. I hope that it’s tapped and they have the other end targeted with a LGB. Even if it’s the “crazy Pakistani terrorist’s” poolboy, I hope they have it tapped.

    I finally decided, “what’s the use…” People with those beliefs have a purpose. They keep the majority of people “on point.”

  29. “But if they’re listening in on my phone call from home in the US with some crazy Pakistani terrorist, they better damn well have a warrant.”

    Sorry, you’re on your own there, I fucking well hope your phone is tapped. I hope that it’s tapped and they have the other end targeted with a LGB. Even if it’s the “crazy Pakistani terrorist’s” poolboy, I hope they have it tapped.

    Especially since he seems to be saying that he makes calls from home to crazy Pakistani terrorists.

    Yo, ECHELON?  Here, boy.  Fetch!

  30. Fred says:

    but Clinton…

    That’s all you got. Rules is rules boys. What are we if we are not a Nation of Laws? Cardinals Nation(and the rest), why do you hate America?

  31. tongueboy says:

    Anybody got a match?

  32. Cardinals Nation says:

    Fred, I’m not sure if you’re serious or not, but just for fun, let’s say you are.

    Okay, let me pose this hypothetical to you: 

    You’re the officer in charge of a long-term investigation into the activities of a known terrorist cell – no ambiguities here, they’re terrorists.  You have absolutely rock-solid, multi-sourced evidence, gathered through completely legal means, that this cell is planning to blow up a school full of children sometime in the next two weeks.  The appropriate APBs and BOLOs have been issued.  Suddenly, at 11:16am the cell leader is arrested during a routine traffic stop and brought to your precinct.  He was the only one in the van, but there is plenty of evidence that there were explosives in there very recently, and lots of them.  Tauntingly he volunteers to you that earlier that morning he and his buddies planted explosives in a school, but he won’t say where and they’re set to go off at 12:00.  It’s now 11:38am.  There’s no way to notify and evacuate every school in the city before noon.  What do you do?  Here are your choices;

    a) Return him to his cell and plan another interview later in the day after he’s had a taste of lockup

    b) Warn him against incriminating himself further, ensure he understands his Miranda Rights and provide him a phone to call his attorney

    c) Attempt to forge a bond through dialogue in hopes that you can gain his trust and thereby learn where the school is through his voluntary admission

    d) Begin beating him with a metal chair leg until he tells you exactly where the school is

    Now, Fred; you have to make a choice.  You must make a choice.  The bombs are really, really going to go off at 12:00. Oh, and Fred…it’s now 11:40.

  33. Steven Donegal says:

    Cardinal~

    Actually I’d just read ahead a couple pages in the script and see how this potboiler turns out.  Why do people insist on creating absolutely bullshit scenarios to try and prove a point?  If your uber-terrorist really knows there are only 20 minutes until the bomb goes off, do you really think that beating him with a metal chair leg is going to get you any useful info?

  34. “But if they’re listening in on my phone call from home in the US with some crazy Pakistani terrorist, they better damn well have a warrant.”

    Or what if they’re listening to a reporter’s phone s3x with her boyfriend? The reporter poses this question to Bush at his press conference in a photo comic at my place. In one frame, Nancy Pelosi raises the Pakistani terrorist argument.

    Pardon the self-promotion.

  35. Really what do these libruls want anyway. Its the Preznit’s job to proteckt us an he will just keep us safe in his big strong hands wont he.  Hahaha. Let him do whutever he wantz. He is almighty anyhow thank GOD.

  36. Jeff Goldstein says:

    Is that really how you interpret the posts I’ve put up on this subject? 

    I mean, seriously, man. What a fucking idiotic comment.  Why do you bother?

  37. Cardinals Nation says:

    Steven,

    a) you’re not Fred

    b) your answer is not one of the choices

    c) yes

  38. Jeff, don’t bother the man while he’s busy ridiculing the proles.  He’ll actually bother to read your postings when he’s done reading Vanity Fair while using a mirror to make sure his lips don’t move.

  39. Sortelli says:

    You mean that was James Wolcott?

  40. Fred says:

    Didn’t I see that on 24? To much T.V. will rot ur brain. Try this.

  41. Cardinals Nation says:

    Fred,

    You might have.  Personally, I’m hoping you look a little like Bruce Willis, who I imagined as the gruff, but steadfast chief agent.  But I digress.

    You did not answer the question.  You assert we are a nation of laws.  I agree, to a point.  I believe that when it comes to security vs. law, security wins.  Call it the “Israeli Principle.” Do I agree with that in total?  Absolutely not.  But I do agree with it in the practical terms of keeping our way of life viable.  Am I completely comfortable with my position?  No, but practical choices are seldom so.  Your concern for civil rights and the rule of law is commendable, but how many civil rights attorneys were practicing law in Kabul under the Taliban?  In Baghdad under Saddam?  In Beijing?  In Tehran?  Not a whole lot, I’ll wager.  Civil rights are for civil societies, which none of our enemies represent.  It’s like table manners.  They only came about when Man had more food than he needed to survive.  No one was overly concerned about elbows on the table in the hunter-gatherer phase of our existence.  Likewise with civil rights.  As dangers creep ever closer, or perhaps more correctly the perception of danger, there will be less and less concern about the niceties of the law.  What Liberals fail to recognize is that their point of view is completely irrelevant to the equation.  The Islamofascists and the “fighters” in the West will set the agenda.  Liberals will simply “freeze” (read “appease”) or “flee” (read “immediate withdrawl”).  That’s just what they (and the French) do.

    The problem with taking a morally absolute stand, as I believe you have done, is that it assumes everyone involved believes in the same morals absolutely.  That is patently false with regards to the current struggle between Islam and the West.

    Either way, I wish you a very Merry Christmas/Happy Hanukah/Happy Kwanza/Happy Winters Day.

    Now seriously; a, b, c or d?

  42. Youre so right.  These pussy libruls cant keep us SAFE.  But we CAN be SAFE hiding behind the big daddy ballz of Big Dick and Lil’ George cuz theyll feed the Evildoerz inta the logsplitter if they hav to.

    I mean have we been HIT when George waz in power? Have WE?

    OK so maybe onct we wur hit but dont be tellin me that George shoulda read that BIN LADEN DETERMINED TO STRIKE INSIDE U.S. PDB and shoulda don somethin about itt like those librul Clintonistas tole us too its their fault. dam.

    Why would they think we would beleeve anythin they tole us theyre libruls so when they say to pay attenshun to AL KAYDA they kno that emans we wont pay not attenshun. damn clintonn damn his surpluss tu.

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