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“Obamacare Regulation Effectively Bars Catholics from Owning Health Insurance Companies”

For the Greater Good, naturally.  And for freedom.  CNS NEWS:

The final version of Obamacare’s “preventive services” regulation that the Department of Health and Human Services published on Friday discriminates against faithful members of the Roman Catholic Church by effectively barring them from owning and operating health-insurance companies.

This is because the regulation orders health insurance companies to provide sterilizations, contraceptives and abortion-inducing drugs to all female beneficiaries except those insured by “religious employers”–which, according to the regulation, includes only actual “houses of worship” (n.b. parish churches), their immediate auxiliaries, associations of houses of worship and the “exclusively religious activities of any religious order.”

The Catholic Church teaches that sterilization, artificial contraception, and abortion are intrinsically immoral. The church also teaches that Catholics are not allowed to cooperate in evil acts such as abortion–which the church says is a form of murder.

Under the final regulation, even Catholic organizations such as Catholic hospitals, universities and charities are not counted as “religious employers.”

Thus, if a Catholic university wanted to seek out and do business with a health-insurance company whose owners ran their company wholly in keeping with Catholic teachings, the university would not be allowed to do so because all insurance companies providing health insurance to Catholic universities will now be required to pay for sterilizations, contraceptives and abortion-inducing drugs for the employees of those universities.

When the final version of the regulation was proposed earlier this year, the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) presented comments to the Department of Health and Human Services pointing out that the regulation would require insurers who had conscientious objections to the mandated services to nonetheless provide them.

[…]

The regulation defines as “religious employers” only those that fall under Section 6033(a)(3)(A)(i) and (iii) of the Internal Revenue Code—the aforementioned houses of worship, their immediate auxiliaries, associations of houses of worship, and religious orders.

In the final regulation that HHS issued Friday, a non-profit organization that “holds itself out as a religious organization”—such as a Catholic hospital, university or charity–can “certify” that it objects to providing sterilizations, contraceptives and abortion-inducing drugs in its health-care plan. But that does not exempt that Catholic organization from facilitating coverage for these things for its employees—nor does it exempt the Catholic organization’s insurance provider from paying for these things.

In fact, under the regulation, if a Catholic hospital, university or charity refuses to buy coverage for the objectionable services, the regulation affirmatively commands that the health insurance company providing coverage to the organization must provide the organization’s employees and their dependents with free sterilizations, contraceptives and abortion-inducing drugs. If the “religious organization” self-insures, the regulation requires that the third-party administrator for the self-insurance plan must either pay directly for the objectionable services or “arrange” for an insurance company to do so—also free of charge to the employees and their dependents.

Look, I’m as disgusted with the Catholic Church’s routine support for the very Democrats whose leftist base, once entrenched in power, were so quick to fuck them over.  And I can understand the schadenfreude some feel, noting (correctly) that the Church didn’t seem much to mind the loss of individual liberty routinely promoted by Democrat policies until their own foundational beliefs came under attack — and the Constitutional protections they relied upon were circumvented by a political Party whose current ideology practically demands it pressure and unravel Constitutional protections on individual and religious liberties:  after all, this is how one replaces the civil society with the religion of state.

Having said that, I will support the Church because regardless of their political shortsightedness, these kinds of mandates set precedent.  Not only that, but they violate the spirit of the First Amendment’s religious freedom provisions.

And I support the Constitution not because I support those entangled in its interpretations; but rather because the document itself is the very thing that guards against tyranny.

And even assholes who push for “social justice” agendas from the pews deserve their liberty.

182 Replies to ““Obamacare Regulation Effectively Bars Catholics from Owning Health Insurance Companies””

  1. Yup. Idiot “Catholics” who can’t tell the difference between actual charitable action, as Christ taught, and state coercion as practiced by Leviathan, have their rights to freedom of speech and freedom of worship. (Disclosure: I was raised a Catholic.)

    They do not, however, have the right to be taken seriously about political issues ever again, until they demonstrate real repentance in the face of the consequences of what they’ve created.

  2. William says:

    Eh, that’s what we get for demanding the State be in charge of charity and then be shocked that it wants to close ours down.

    I’ve seen zero evidence that the Bishops really care about this issue, or any issue, besides the most effective timeline to shut down empty churches. Our leadership is also a firm believer in the “Lose more slowly today, lose more slowly tomorrow!” strategy.

    I mean, we’re supposed to be waiting for “3-d chessmaster” Cardinal Dolan to use his rolodex when it just came out that his staff already supports a contraceptive health plan? Please.

  3. Squid says:

    If they have truly come to their senses and repented, we should welcome them back gladly and with great generosity. I think the hippy Nazarene once told one of his stories along those lines.

  4. William says:

    Still waiting for the old one’s to die out, Squid. That’s the Catholic way to do things: see if it works.

    Which is especially humorous since the fruit of their labor is closed churches, and I have a fifth friend about to enter the seminary.

  5. Squid says July 2, 2013 at 2:51 pm

    Indeed. To learn is to live, and there is always hope (spiritually) for the living.

  6. Squid says:

    I should mention that I have a problem with inflammatory headlines like “Obamacare Regulation Effectively Bars Catholics from Owning Health Insurance Companies” The truth is that Catholics can own all the insurance companies they want; they’ll just be forced to contravene their sacred beliefs.

    I’m sure their imaginary Sky-Father will forgive them. Isn’t that what their quaint little cult is all about?

  7. John Bradley says:

    Well sure, Nancy Pelosi and John Kerry could own all the Health Insurance companies they’d ever want, and they’d be perfectly fine with that. What with their exceptionally ‘liberal’ take on Catholicism and all.

  8. I thought Obama just said on his visit to Senegal that it was important to respect the beliefs of all religions.

  9. palaeomerus says:

    “I thought Obama just said on his visit to Senegal that it was important to respect the beliefs of all religions. ”

    Some religions he chooses to respects with the back of his pimp hand and IRS harassament.

  10. Somehow I doubt a Muslim-owned business would be targeted for enforcement under a mandate like this.

  11. dicentra says:

    I will support the Church because regardless of their political shortsightedness, these kinds of mandates set precedent.

    Catholics may have blown it with the social justice thing, but a lot of other churches did NOT, and even though those churches are not affected by THIS restriction, others will surely come.

    Bring the knife down on the camel’s nose the first time, and save yourself all KINDS of time.

  12. newrouter says:

    if you’re a demonrat you’re exempt from o!care

  13. BigBangHunter says:

    – The fog of social engineering clears a bit.

    – Just think of all those true believers, out there teaching new generations to hate their heritage even as we speak.

    – Happy 4th all you H8ters.

  14. geoffb says:

    Health-Law Employer Mandate Said to Be Delayed to 2015

    Businesses won’t be penalized next year if they fail to provide workers health insurance after the Obama administration decided to delay a key requirement under its signature 2010 health-care law.

    The government will postpone enforcement of the so-called employer mandate until 2015, the administration said today. Under the provision, companies with 50 or more workers face a fine of as much as $3,000 per employee if they don’t offer affordable insurance.
    […]
    “In our ongoing discussions with businesses we have heard that you need the time to get this right,” Valerie Jarrett, a senior adviser to Obama, said in a White House blog post announcing the decision. “We are listening.”

    The move may lead some employers to delay providing coverage to workers. The law’s individual mandate remains in effect, a provision that requires most Americans to carry health insurance.

    What your masters give they can also take away, at their whim alone. Rule by man not by law is the order of this day.

    Allah (or Loki) is in the big White House and all of creation shall only exist by his will alone. Only the stupidest think they have any real say in what happens, what is enforced or let slide.

    A rude awakening is in store for them when they finally realize that that day it is their turn to be sacrificed to the volcano by others who think, as they do now, that the sacrifice has any effect on the actions of the whimsical ones who rule.

    The sacrifices are only for their amusement and as proof of their power.

  15. newrouter says:

    class action law suit is in order against the baracky. make it the campaign issue for 2014

  16. LTC (ret) John says:

    I guess if I am to love mine enemies, I can manage to support the Church on this. But no wondering why we Methodists wandered off on our own…

  17. Shermlaw says:

    GeoffB, indeed. Somebody’s gotta play the role of Trotsky.

  18. leigh says:

    What is that method anyway, John?

  19. geoffb says:

    Well they have set the table up and the corporations will bring the poison and drink it gladly not knowing it will kill them.

    Delaying the employer mandate but not the individual one cleaves the employer from the employee on this. Employers get to drop all health insurance with no penalty while employees have to go get their own, from the exchanges, and apply for government assistance to cover the costs.

    Now they will hate the businesses and their bosses, even the non-union employees and the white collar ones too. Government, aka Obama, to the rescue. Just before the election of 2014 give out waivers or subsidies to all those individuals whose bosses dropped their coverage.

    Obama and the Democrats as the “White Knights” saving all the little people from those horrible corporations, greedy insurance companies, and those nasty Republicans who take that filthy corporate lucre.

    To pay for it all? Why drop the corporate waivers and jack up the penalty. Way up. Make those Republicans either support sticking it to “the man” or use their not doing so to tie those greedy Wall Street bastards right around their neck for Nov. 2014.

    Win-win and just forget who brought the whole mess into being to begin with, old news, nothing to report there, move along, move along.

  20. William says:

    Your forgot the dash of “We were just following orders, it’s TOO late now, do you want to waste all that effort we put into setting this up?!” Geoffb, but otherwise pretty spot on.

    Good thing Republicans have already given up on the message now, so as to avoid having a chance in the future.

  21. smmtheory says:

    Hey now, I’m part of the Catholic Church, and I never gave routine support to Democrats or Republicans. Thanks for tarring me with that overly broad brush. In all my time with the Church, I have never once had the Church recommend I vote for either party’s candidates.

  22. leigh says:

    Neither have I. I think people can forget just how big the Catholic church is and how demographics can cause some homilies to differ from others. I’ve lived all over the country and most priests are remarkably consistent in their teachings.

    Having self-appointed douchebags like Bill Donohue claiming to speak for the church isn’t helpful, either.

  23. Frank_Underwood says:

    Well some of my fellow Democrats are pretty liberal in defining what it means to be Catholic, but given the circumstances I couldn’t possibly comment.

  24. Frank Underwood, D-SC says:

    I have heard Nancy Pelosi laugh and laugh over things like this. God, how I despise that woman.

  25. serr8d says:

    In all my time with the Church, I have never once had the Church recommend I vote for either party’s candidates.

    Neither Party deserves recommendations from any serious religious institution, because both are rotted fruits. But I’m guessing the Pope is one of the best (because, loudest, with the largest target audience) anti-abortionists we have living today; a shame many Americanized Catholics ignore him, and vote for Democrats regardless of that party’s pro-abortion platform.

  26. Gulermo says:

    “I have never once had the Church recommend I vote for either party’s candidates.”

    I guess that make me older than both of you.

    “Neither have I.”

    Are you saying it was not done?

  27. leigh says:

    It’s possible, Gulermo. I am only going on my personal experience.

  28. happyfeet says:

    Big Church
    Big Government
    Big Dif

    it’s socialism all the way down

  29. geoffb says:

    Obamacare costs too much and it isn’t working the way the administration promised,” Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) said. “And while the White House seems to slowly be admitting what Americans already know, and what I hear consistently in my travels around Kentucky regarding the regulatory burden on employers, the fact remains that Obamacare needs to be repealed and replaced with common-sense reforms that actually lower costs for Americans.”

    House Oversight and Government Reform Committee Chairman Darrell Issa (R-Calif.) questioned whether President Obama had the authority to issue the delay without the approval of Congress.

    “This is another in a string of extra legal actions taken by his administration to mask the horrible impact his law will have on the economy and healthcare in the United States,” Issa said.

    Needs to be shouted and in much stronger language.

    Also all waivers need to be denounced as what they are, bribes to support being ruled by the whims of one man not by law. A law that empowers one person to decide what is to be legal today and then can be changed by them tomorrow is not law, it is simply a tyranny with a veneer of legalism which is how all modern tyrants do it.

    Despite many states’ challenges coping with the law and the employer mandate setback, Sebelius said a “new health insurance marketplace” would open across the country on Oct. 1, a key part of the healthcare law.

    “Over the next few months, we’ll be working with partners across the country to let people know about the new coverage options coming their way this fall,” she said.

    “Our success in getting kids signed up for Medicaid and CHIP will provide great guidance as we embark on the historic effort we’ll see in the months ahead.”

    Says the spider to the tasty stupid little flies.

  30. happyfeet says:

    porky porky chris christie is doing absolutely everything he can to make obamacare a big win for his snookitrash constituents

    plus Jan Brewer’s on board the obamacare express too

    it’s a bipartisan endeavour

  31. newrouter says:

    “Big Church”

    nah Big Mosque@pickledinfidelbabyfeetsdoodle get with the hussein or insane

  32. newrouter says:

    are there any recipes for aborted fetuses? why let good meat go to waste. geez “planed parenthood” ain’t recycling.

  33. happyfeet says:

    they have pig’s feet at smart n final and they look like the good ones but you can never know til you try them really

    I’m just not in a pig’s feet place right now

    maybe over the holiday though

    pig’s feet n tabasco and a chelada for the fourth sounds kinda fun actually and also I can do boiled peabnuts

    I think I’m a do it

    I’m a go to smart n final and get the piggyfeet and also get stuff for deviled eggs have some friends swing by over the 4-day it’s really hot here and not everybody has central air so it would be nice to invite some people over to get out of the heat and get their southern on

  34. happyfeet says:

    down on our side of the barbed wire your money grows in rows if it don’t you goin broke

  35. newrouter says:

    @babysfeet eat what you sow

  36. newrouter says:

    tasty fried fetuses with salsa on a taco. new la cheese steak no?

  37. happyfeet says:

    ick that’s gross

  38. newrouter says:

    since ca banned goose livers can fetus livers be used for some tastey eats. it all about recycling.

  39. newrouter says:

    planed parenthood should be selling fresh fetus parts. for the recycling!!11!!

  40. happyfeet says:

    you’re obsessed with fetuses it’s not healthy Mr. nr

  41. newrouter says:

    are black babies livers better than the hispanic livers?

  42. newrouter says:

    i think Jonathan Swift

  43. happyfeet says:

    i dissected a fetal pig once

    it was once of those exercises what went on about twenty times longer than it really needed to

    I think we spent over a week on it

  44. Ernst Schreiber says:

    Big Church
    Big Government
    Big Dif
    it’s socialism all the way down

    Shows what you know; the Catholic Church is too hierarchical for socialism.

  45. smmtheory says:

    “I guess that make me older than both of you.”

    Only if you were born before ’58.

    “Are you saying it was not done?”

    I could respond to this with the just as asinine question. Are you calling us liars? Obviously, neither one of us could have possibly been in every parish throughout the country to experience it if it did occur. Yes, it is possible that some priest or other could have put on a political hat and bloviated instead of giving a homily or blessing or whatever. Does that imply the whole Catholic Church should be condemned or ridiculed?

  46. newrouter says:

    “i dissected a fetal pig once”

    there’s another market for aborted fetuses. besides tacos

  47. newrouter says:

    join in to the abortion stuff. let us eat what they produce. paula deen has a recipe i’m sure

  48. happyfeet says:

    Mr. Ernst I know the catholic church has endeavored mightily to enslave my cracker ass to the Leviathan

    mostly I just ignore them and as they whine about whatever their latest grievance is I’m a continue that policy

    not my problem

  49. newrouter says:

    “i dissected a fetal pig once”

    dissect a fetal human. it is so much fun. ax doc gosnell?

  50. After many years and a Methodist wedding, Wife of Slog and I auditioned a number of churches in North Pole, Alaska — including (I kid you not) St. Nicholas Catholic Church.

    The homily persuaded me to sit out Communion, and we joined a Methodist church which re-baptized me as a heretic for forms’ sake.

  51. Ignoring usually means not commenting on it. I’ma follow my own advice now.

  52. newrouter says:

    “Mr. Ernst I know the catholic church has endeavored mightily to enslave my cracker ass to the Leviathan ”

    taco fetus?: god,allan,man?

  53. happyfeet says:

    we’d crawl out about 11:30 sunday morning in our underwear

    amongst 4 or 5 hunderd empty beer cans

    strap on a banjo and a guitar

    wait for the presbyterians

    give em somethin to talk about on their way to Luby’s

    true story

  54. happyfeet says:

    yes Mr. McGehee that’s the way of it you ain’t wrong no sir

  55. Darleen says:

    Big Church
    Big Government
    Big Dif

    Of course there’s a huge difference … Churches can’t jail you and, if your congregation doesn’t like what you’re doing or gets bored with you … they are free to walk away.

  56. happyfeet says:

    they both want the same thing for me Darleen

    my dying ass in a squalid care-rationing government hospital

    no thank you is what I say to that Darleen just like that

    no thank you I say

    politely but firmly

  57. Gulermo says:

    “Only if you were born before ’58.”

    Many years.

    “Are you calling us liars?”

    Is it is your contention that it isn’t or wasn’t done?

    “Catholic Church should be condemned or ridiculed?”

    Who said that? The sky where you are; what color is it?

  58. newrouter says:

    tofu fetuses with mustard sauce at the next planed parenthood . enjoy the fruits of your labor

  59. palaeomerus says:

    “join in to the abortion stuff. let us eat what they produce. paula deen has a recipe i’m sure ”

    This has already been thought of.

    Not eating precisely, barring Swift and Soylent Green, but we know about the fetal stem cells research lines.

    And there are highly questionable rumors that collagen from animal and human biowaste turns up in various industrial applications.

    That might just be an out growth from the old ‘human blood-plasma is sold to shampoo and cosmetics manufacturers after it passes it’s safe usefulness date’ thing though or the harvesting of discarded placentas for similar purposes.

    I suspect there are rather specific laws against aggregating and selling fetal remains in bulk. But I have no evidence either way.

  60. newrouter says:

    “they both want the same thing for me Darleen ”

    only one can make you eat dill flavored roasted fetus

  61. happyfeet says:

    Mr. newrouter i like sticking decals on things but not the things what came in the box with the decals usually

    but i hate hate hate bumper stickers I just think they’re tacky

    bumper stickers and tattoos

    i try not to call em trashy our loud but between you and me that’s what i think

  62. happyfeet says:

    *out* loud I mean

  63. newrouter says:

    “I suspect there are rather specific laws against aggregating and selling fetal remains in bulk”

    go ax gosnell he’s 10 feet tall

  64. bh says:

    The Church can mean everyone or just the bishops on up.

    Some people are referring to the former (Church = members) and others are referring to the latter (Church = middle to upper management).

  65. happyfeet says:

    i’m more of a latter kinda pikachu Mr. bh

    cause usually they’re the ones most incensed about whatever these posts are about

    I don’t wish evil on em but I’m not gonna buy into some kind of high-concept appeal to american solidarity

    especially if I’m not really feelin it

  66. newrouter says:

    i wonder @happyfeet: dark meat or white meat in the fetus stuff? swiftian minds want to know?

  67. happyfeet says:

    Mr. nr you’re obsessed I tell you OBSESSED

    you’re like justin bieber with a new monkey

  68. newrouter says:

    “The Church can mean everyone or just the bishops on up.”

    the church is believers of jesus. highly decentralized

  69. newrouter says:

    geez are you against recycling, mr babyfeetsinajar?

  70. newrouter says:

    “the church is believers of jesus.”

    they are; he/she is-individuals

  71. happyfeet says:

    i already done told you I stopped recycling after food stamp won his second term

  72. Gulermo says:

    “Where two meet in MY name; there I am.”

  73. Ernst Schreiber says:

    In this particularly difficult area of historical inquiry … the possibility of anything approaching complete agreement is exceedingly remote. Some fundamentals, however, lie clearly beyond the reach of dissent. …. In this connection, there are few better points of departure than the sociological typology that Ernst Troeltsch, sociologist, historian, and theologian, elaborated over sixty years ago in his great book The Social Teaching of the Christian Churches. Although the historical account … has been criticized at more than one of its phases, that typology contines to maintain its usefulness[.]

    Friend and admirer of Max Weber, Troeltsch believed that Christianity, insofar as it was itself a social phenomenon, was open to investigation in accordance with teh modes of analysis proper to historical sociology. …Troeltsch concluded that in the course of its historical career Christianity had found expresssion not in one type of socio-religious organization alone, but rather in three. These he called the church, the sect, and mysticism[.]

    By the church, Troeltsch meant the type of socioreligious organization that reaches out to comprehend and to Christianize society as a whole and that contrives to do so by manifesting a willingness to compromise with the mores it finds embedded already in society, foregoing therefore, the imposition upon its members of any moral code or standard for admission that the masses would find too exacting to meet or too rigorous to sustain. As a corollary, it foregoes also any rigid insistence upon the individual sanctity of its members and focuses attention instead upon its own institutional holiness, locus as it is of the regenerative working of the Holy Spirit. The emphasis, then, is on both the sacramental and the objective. The efficacy of the sacramental channels of supernatural grace depends upon the personal moral worthiness neither of the minister nor of recipient[.]

    While the church thus strives to include the masses, the sect resigns itself to excluding them. Its emphasis lies less upon the exploitation of the sacramental channels of grace than upon the rigors of moral striving. [I]t is of necessity a voluntary society that eschews talk of institutional sanctity, stressing instead the subjective holiness of its individual members and seeking to protect the purity of their moral commitment by imposing very strict criteria for admission into the fellowship of believers and for continuing membership thereof.

    In order to underline the significance of the contrast involved here, it may be helpful to refer by way of rough analogy to the partially comparable contrast that exists in our own contemporary political life between the national party and the radical fringe “movement.” The former aspires to establish a sufficiently broad basis of electoral support to be entrusted with the government of the country and the opportunity, therefore, to implement its program. In order to attain its goal, it is willing to forego an uncompromising ideological purity, to open its membership to all, and to couch its appeal in terms acceptable to the mass of voters. The latter, on the other hand, prefers to harangue the voters rather than genuinely to solicit their support. It demands of its supporters the type of life commitment to which the many may periodically aspire but which only the few can long sustain. Highly selective in its admission criteria, it can normally hope to do no more than bear witness to its ideals; but that is itself a major goal. The remote possibility of being entrusted with governmental authority it rates much lower than the vindication of its own ideological purity, and it can hope to combine the two only as the result of revolutionary seizure of power. If that path is rejected or seen as lying in the distant future, it is sometimes driven to seek the purer maintainance of its ideals in isolated utopias, communities persisting on the margins of society and awaiting, perhaps with impatient longing, the future dawning of the millenium. (Francis Oakley, The Medieval Experience, (Toronto, 1988 [orig. published, 1974]) 47-49)

    Offered in the hope of explaining why the Catholic Church does things that the conservative/classical liberal movement finds difficult to comprehend.

    On the offhand chance that anyone was actually wondering, that is.

  74. happyfeet says:

    Eggses Mr. Gulermo! Eggses it is!

  75. Ernst Schreiber says:

    Or, what bh said,

    this time with the voice of authoriteh.

  76. happyfeet says:

    Mr. Ernst you can lay down all the rationalizations you want I’m not gonna confuzzle those people with being some kind of ally in the struggle against an oppressive state.

    Cause of that is not what they are.

    Have you ever heard the story of the scorpion and the frog?

  77. happyfeet says:

    It’s in the bible

  78. newrouter says:

    “It’s in the bible”

    fried or sauteed fetus?

  79. Ernst Schreiber says:

    they both want the same thing for me Darleen
    my dying ass in a squalid care-rationing government hospital

    Just to be a subversive sonofabitch, I contend that the institutional Catholic Church, to the extent it supported Obamacare, did so because it knows damn good and well that it will be the only organization running hospitals after the whole glorious fucktarded mess implodes.

    It’s jesuitical, is what it is.

  80. newrouter says:

    ” it is sometimes driven to seek the purer maintainance of its ideals in isolated utopias, ”

    go for it you 2000 year losers. proggtardia awaits you.

  81. newrouter says:

    ” it knows damn good and well that it will be the only organization running hospitals after the whole glorious fucktarded mess implodes.”

    tough to do if they are closed

  82. happyfeet says:

    i have a dumbfounded look on my face and no words to offer Mr. Ernst

  83. Ernst Schreiber says:

    go for it you 2000 year losers. proggtardia awaits you.

    That’s pickachuspeak for what, exactly?

  84. geoffb says:

    [N]either atheism[Communism ed.] nor Islam were “new religions” in respect to each other insofar as the political behavior of their societies was concerned.

    Both were handmaidens of authoritarianism. … Marxism-Leninism and Islamism are “kingdoms of this world” in addition of course, to Islam being also of the Other World. As such they offer comprehensive solutions to the problems of life on earth. Their structures are roughly parallel. The Party, the Brotherhood. Armed struggle, the Jihad. Socialist legality, Sharia. Political correctness, Islamic morality. Nasser, Morsi. The Mainstream Media, the Muttaween.

    Human freedom has very little scope in either system. One awaits the Master of Time or the restoration of the Caliphate. The other awaits the Worker’s Paradise. Although Islam and Marxism may seem as different as day and night, both are comprehensive systems of human organization from which significant dissent is impossible.
    […]
    But in a way that is like saying, “handcuffs are dead, long live leg irons”. Though the changes will be theologically profound they will be socially insignificant. Essentially people will still select a Strong Man and wait for him to save them. If history is any guide both Marxism and Islamism are bound to disappoint. They both have an excellent track record of reducing countries to backwardness, penury and defeat.

    An Egyptian Ataturk might ask, “why not introduce a new religion?” One that emphasizes human freedom. One which teaches that nobody is going to save you but yourself. One which suggests that human government will at best be a necessary evil, to be limited and watched with great vigilance. A belief system that inculcates the idea that cumulative improvements to individual lives add up to a better society.

    Of course such a religion may already exist, and it’s first letter may begin with a “J” or a “C” as you prefer. Or it may be the secular equivalent of the American faith. One which rejects Kingdoms of This World in favor of allowing people to pursue Life, Liberty and Happiness. But in the nature of things proposing this new religion may be too radical for acceptance because they have such bad press.

    That is no matter. The important thing is the idea. If the failure of Nasserism [communism ed.] and Islamism in the Middle East mean anything it lies in that all attempts to build a Tower of Babel must lead to the structure collapsing under its own weight. Freedom apparently saves. And while everyone is free to choose Islamism or Communism as he prefers, freedom ought to a product on offer in the ideological shelves.

    That it is not on sale is a circumstance of the Western infatuation with Marxism.

    Funny how we have a linear political map that runs from tyrant to tyrant without a single point that is labeled “Here there be freedom.” Not by mistake I’d bet.

  85. geoffb says:

    Abandoned chapels of one new religion. Rust never sleeps indeed.

  86. newrouter says:

    “That’s pickachuspeak for what, exactly?”

    oh collectivism and the last 1000 years. i’m told jesus is a personal savior?

  87. I know that a lot of non-Catholics confuse the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (or whatever they call themselves after I’ve had two Scotcheses) with the Church as in Pope Frank. Just because the hippie American hierarchy says crazy proggy shit doesn’t mean that’s what the Church stands for.

    The Church needs to work a little harder on its message discipline, since it doesn’t go with the “just read the Bible, it’s all in there” approach of some of the Protestant churches. It’s a lot easier to be on the same page when there’s only the one book.

  88. happyfeet says:

    jesus makes the people come together

    yeah

    jesus makes the bourgeoisie and the rebels

    yeah

  89. Ernst Schreiber says:

    If the failure of Nasserism [communism ed.] and Islamism in the Middle East mean anything it lies in that all attempts to build a Tower of Babel must lead to the structure collapsing under its own weight. Freedom apparently saves. And while everyone is free to choose Islamism or Communism as he prefers, freedom ought to a product on offer in the ideological shelves.

    If you haven’t yet, read Oakeshott’s essay, “The Tower of Babel,” you should get crackin’.

  90. happyfeet says:

    Just because the hippie American hierarchy says crazy proggy shit doesn’t mean that’s what the Church stands for

    but do we really want to risk it Mr. McGehee? There’s no upside if we guess right and a whole lotta downside if we get it wrong.

    It’s best to let their problems be their problems whilst our problems is our problems.

    If you think about it either way with respect to our comportment we still hold true to our shared fealty to principles of individual liberty and personal freedom.

  91. newrouter says:

    “jesus makes the people come together”

    And Jesus entered the templeb and drove out all who sold and bought in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the money-changers and the seats of those who sold pigeons. 13He said to them, “It is written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer,’ but you make it a den of robbers.”

  92. Ernst Schreiber says:

    oh collectivism and the last 1000 years. i’m told jesus is a personal savior?

    He also left us a church because self-help movements need support groups.

    Otherwise, you fall into the spiritual, not religious person trap, and the next thing you know, your licking a frog, or getting buggered by a goat, in a vain attempt to experience the transcedent.

  93. newrouter says:

    “individual liberty and personal freedom.”

    tell that to pickledbabysfeetingosnellssjar

  94. bh says:

    It’s probably worth noting the time period of Ernst’s linked piece.

    He didn’t link another blogger from the last couple days. Indeed, we can’t be entirely sure that in his analogy he’s not referring to the “fringe” opposing Nixon.

  95. Ernst Schreiber says:

    It’s a lot easier to be on the same page when there’s only the one book.

    Remind me again, how many Protestant churches are there again?

    He asked, impishly.

  96. newrouter says:

    ” in a vain attempt to experience the transcedent.”

    i did the organized “church”. you can find jesus on your own. i think jesus was for the individual. no bureaucracies to g-d involved

  97. happyfeet says:

    close your eyes and look closer

    protestants are 32 flavors and then some*

  98. Ernst Schreiber says:

    It’s probably worth noting the time period of Ernst’s linked piece.
    He didn’t link another blogger from the last couple days. Indeed, we can’t be entirely sure that in his analogy he’s not referring to the “fringe” opposing Nixon.

    For the record, Oakley was first published in 1974, Troeltsch, whose typology he’s following wrote “over sixty years” before that. His book appeared in English translation in 1960. In the next paragraph, Oakley explains why a type is a mental abstraction, not a literal reflection of the real world. (e.g., in the present political environment, you could say that the Democrat party is being run by a progressive sect/movement, and I would happily concede the point) But, as the quotation was already so long as to amount to mere rationalization, I decided to wrap up my comment.

  99. Gulermo says:

    “you can find jesus on your own.”

    The only way.

  100. Gulermo says:

    I guess more accurately HE finds you.

  101. bh says:

    I’m not busting your balls, Ernst.

    It seemed that others were responding to what they read as our contemporary triggers so I wanted to mention that you hadn’t just linked someone like Rick Moran.

  102. Ernst Schreiber says:

    i did the organized “church”. you can find jesus on your own. i think jesus was for the individual. no bureaucracies to g-d involved

    Good for you if you can. I truly mean that. A lot of us can’t do that without the discipline of God’s bureaucrats. Do you want to consign us to hell and perdition because we’re not as athletic as you?

  103. Ernst Schreiber says:

    I didn’t think you were, bh. I was just taking the opportunity to “revise and extend.”

    The church/sect—party/movement analogy is a good one, and useful, but it’s not perfect.

  104. happyfeet says:

    maybe perdition

  105. bour3 says:

    While we’re on the subject of church, er, subjugation, there is a nearby church supply store that is truly impressive. You can get all kind of stuff in there.

    Fer instance, candles. Big ones too. Tapers out to there *bang!*

    ||

    What are they made of? None of your BEEZEwax!

    Paraffin.

    I’m guessing. They’re yellow and smell funny. All sizes actually. I bought a whole box of them then wrapped them in a, oh, I don’t know, a Japanese fashion, I suppose. In a manner that no one would expect, in a way people don’t want to unwrap. As seen in a a book such as this. Which I do recommend. You should buy that book. And forevermore be different. Like, how do you wrap a bottle? The Japanese way!

    And another time, for universal type Christmas presents to pass around to everybody, about 25 people, it was possible to assemble gold coins in chocolate candy form as they sell in groceries, frankincense sold in a large fancy box, about a pound of little resin stones, I still have some of that, and myrrh which looks hard like wood chips, and couldn’t really do anything with that except smell it and understand the scent. Oil didn’t work, it didn’t burn well. Assembled that inside colorful Christmas tree bulb ornaments and those were the gifts. Get it?

    A few people did not get it. They had to have it explained and then were not impressed after that. As if they were Jewish or something! Others flipped the f right out. Mostly because they were always interested in what frankincense smelled like but never did know and finally a lifetime of mystery is solved.. A bartender flipped out and cracked two glass ashtrays burning it all night, my father flipped out and burned frankincense all over the house, another friend burned his coffee table. So maybe frankincense is not such a good idea after all, but people loved it. Guess what it smells like. Guess. GUESS I SAID! It smells like church. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

    It’s called Gerken’s like the little pickle. On Santa Fe at 13th . Maybe 12th. I think 13th. Hang on. 1175 Santa Fe. You should go there.

  106. newrouter says:

    “. A lot of us can’t do that without the discipline of God’s bureaucrats.”

    really g-d appointed these folks? maybe hhs or irs?

  107. Ernst Schreiber says:

    If you think about it either way with respect to our comportment we still hold true to our shared fealty to principles of individual liberty and personal freedom.

    Just what, pray tell are those principles of individual liberty? What is personal freedom for, exactly?

  108. palaeomerus says:

    After these things Jesus shewed himself again to the disciples at the sea of Tiberias; and on this wise shewed he himself.

    There were together Simon Peter, and Thomas called Didymus, and Nathanael of Cana in Galilee, and the sons of Zebedee, and two other of his disciples.

    Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing. They say unto him, We also go with thee. They went forth, and entered into a ship immediately; and that night they caught nothing.

    But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore: but the disciples knew not that it was Jesus.

    Then Jesus saith unto them, Children, have ye any meat? They answered him, No.

    And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes.

    Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord. Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his fisher’s coat unto him, (for he was naked,) and did cast himself into the sea.

    And the other disciples came in a little ship; (for they were not far from land, but as it were two hundred cubits,) dragging the net with fishes.

    As soon then as they were come to land, they saw a fire of coals there, and fish laid thereon, and bread.

    Jesus saith unto them, Bring of the fish which ye have now caught.

    Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.

    Jesus saith unto them, Come and dine. And none of the disciples durst ask him, Who art thou? knowing that it was the Lord.

    Jesus then cometh, and taketh bread, and giveth them, and fish likewise.

    This is now the third time that Jesus shewed himself to his disciples, after that he was risen from the dead.

    So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

    He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

  109. happyfeet says:

    the jesus candles make the best emergency candles but you can’t hardly find them anywhere for 99 cents anymore

    more like a buck fiddy

  110. Ernst Schreiber says:

    really g-d appointed these folks?

    google (or bing, if you prefer) “Great Commission.”

  111. newrouter says:

    “Just what, pray tell are those principles of individual liberty? What is personal freedom for, exactly? ”

    not what the catholic church and obama want for america

  112. newrouter says:

    “google (or bing, if you prefer) “Great Commission.”

    nice narrative for status hoes

  113. Ernst Schreiber says:

    I don’t think the Catholic Church wants the same things Obama wants, personally.

  114. happyfeet says:

    Just what, pray tell are those principles of individual liberty? What is personal freedom for, exactly?

    Mr. Ernst I’m afraid that’s one of those if you have to ask things

    what you have to do is just tip it on back make it feel good and sip a little more than you know you should

  115. Ernst Schreiber says:

    That said, there are plenty of Catholics who want what Obama wants.

    And Methodists too, I reckon.

  116. newrouter says:

    the “catholic” church can f**k off about illegal immigration. fu and rubio too

  117. bh says:

    “google (or bing, if you prefer) “Great Commission.”
    nice narrative for status hoes

    For the life of me I don’t know why you type such comments. Are you bored?

  118. Ernst Schreiber says:

    I thought you’d say something like that.

    I know what I think. What I want to know is what you thing.

    Assuming you think about first principles at all.

    Which, frankly, is one hell of an assumption.

    Seriously, where does freedom come from?

  119. newrouter says:

    “I don’t think the Catholic Church wants the same things Obama wants, personally ”

    the bureaucracy wants it. more stupid mex peeps makes the machine work.

  120. happyfeet says:

    i’m bored

    tomorrow is one of those weird non-days before a 4-day weekend where even though lots needs to get done nothing really has to get delivered

  121. palaeomerus says:

    He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

    “I assure you: When you were young, you would tie your belt and walk wherever you wanted. But when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands and someone else will tie you and carry you where you don’t want to go.”

    This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

    Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee

    Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?

    Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

    Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

    This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.

    And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

  122. Ernst Schreiber says:

    When newrouter gets in over his head, he gets belligerent. When happyfeet gets in over his, he prates and babbles even more than usual.

  123. newrouter says:

    Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where O! Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then O! Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

  124. Ernst Schreiber says:

    Of course you’re bored. Flightly little pickachus often are.

  125. happyfeet says:

    it’s just like entourage but except for everyone’s wearing sandals

  126. bh says:

    Well, if we’re quoting Scripture, here’s some.

  127. happyfeet says:

    Mr. Ernst I can tell by your tone you’re just saying that to be mean. And you know what that’s ok.

    We can hug it out later.

  128. newrouter says:

    “When newrouter gets in over his head, he gets belligerent ”

    yea short fuse for the stupid peeps

  129. newrouter says:

    oh you clown christians? where’s the effin’ outrage for the beheading of a priest in syria? what an effin joke catholics, methodists, etc are.

  130. happyfeet says:

    here’s uneducated obamawhore retard duncan sheik doing howard jones

    I like it

  131. Ernst Schreiber says:

    yea short fuse for the stupid peeps

    I have a hard time suffering fools myself, so I think I know where you’re coming from.

  132. newrouter says:

    ” And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

    your fabulous church is sinking. have some fetus sushi.

  133. happyfeet says:

    meghan’s coward daddy’s boys cut themselves off a priest head is all that is as far as I understand Mr. newrouter

    it’s mavericky!

  134. happyfeet says:

    here’s uneducated obamawhore retard duncan sheik doing psychedelic furs

    love it

  135. Ernst Schreiber says:

    Mr. Ernst I can tell by your tone you’re just saying that to be mean.

    I’m just saying that to point out that you can’t, or won’t, tell us where you think freedom comes from.

    And my tone isn’t mean, it’s contemptuous.

  136. happyfeet says:

    FREEDOM IN MY EXPERIENCE IS SOMETHING YOU HAVE TO WORK VERY HARD FOR UP TO AND INCLUDING SUBJUGATING YOURSELF FOR YEARS JUST TO TASTE IT BRIEFLY

  137. happyfeet says:

    but it’s werf it

  138. newrouter says:

    “I’m just saying that to point out that you can’t, or won’t, tell us where you think freedom comes from. ”

    not from organized religion. not from big bureaucracy

  139. Ernst Schreiber says:

    your fabulous church is sinking. have some fetus sushi.

    My sympathies are Catholic, but in point of fact, I’m nominally Reformed.

    Swedish presbyterian-baptist as it were.

  140. palaeomerus says:

    Freedom is whatever fad you want to shine on you this minute. Hate is all the real life stuff that might get in the way of that.

  141. Ernst Schreiber says:

    That’s stll a non-responsive response, happyfeet. If freedom is free, why do you have to work for it? What are you subjugating yourself to?

  142. happyfeet says:

    Mr. Warner, who lived in New Canaan, Conn., for many years, is survived by his wife of 66 years*

  143. happyfeet says:

    Mr. S we do not live in a little country what values freedom

    you have to connive and scheme just for a lil taste

    but that it’s even possible means we’re a lil bit ahead of the game compared to sweden and egypt and the united kingdom

    did that bitch ever have her fucking baby or what

  144. newrouter says:

    “Freedom is whatever fad you want to shine on you this minute. ”

    like co2 emissions or coal usage?

  145. happyfeet says:

    he’s wrong about the fads Mr. newrouter

    but I should like a torchy’s taco to shine on me about now all the same

  146. Ernst Schreiber says:

    “Freedom is whatever fad you want to shine on you this minute. ”
    like co2 emissions or coal usage?

    Exactly like that. Freedom from dependency on fossil fuels that are poisoning the planet with plant food.

    In the how you get there matters sense, that is.

  147. Ernst Schreiber says:

    Freedom is Slavery

    Slavery is Freedom.

    What do you suppose Orwell meant to illustrate by that bit of Minitru agitprop?

  148. happyfeet says:

    how you get there matters fuck all

    any time what you have in this goddamn vale of tears over 75 or so years is a fucking bonus

    you best get your ass there son

    you best get your ass there quick like a motherfucking bunny

    anyway anyhow

  149. Ernst Schreiber says:

    That’s the most honest thing you’ve posted here since I’ve known you.

    (Your persona, anyways).

  150. newrouter says:

    freedom: babyfeetinajar go catholics

  151. Ernst Schreiber says:

    The time you have here, however long, doesn’t matter for shit, in the cosmic scheme of things.

    You and I have such opposed understanding of freedom that there’s no point in continuing the conversation.

    Which is okay, since it’s a mostly one-sided conversation anyways, as far as I can tell.

  152. happyfeet says:

    i learned it from reading my side of the mountain* when i was little Mr. Ernst

    it won a newbery you know

  153. palaeomerus says:

    The unknown body exhibits no apparent internal solidity at all. It’s a reactive semi-fluid. All of its output seems to be mangled input stored from random prior interactions, a slush of mad libs and bumper sticker tidbits, which it reflexively extrudes when it senses the presence of any new data. And the slush seems to bootstrap itself into a semblance of relevance via cognitive dissonance on the part of whoever observes the emergence of data slush output. It’s interaction but not true communication.

  154. happyfeet says:

    you wish mofo

  155. Ernst Schreiber says:

    Please understand I’m not trying to bait you or pick an argument, newrouter, but to understand where you’re coming from here:

    Is it your belief that the Institutional Catholic Church is pro-abortion, or that that individuals who self-identify as Catholic (e.g. Nancy Pelosi, etc.) are pro-abortion?

    Follow-up: Is it your contention that the majority of Catholics are pro-abortion, irrespective of the official stance of the Catholic Church?

  156. palaeomerus says:

    It’s more like farting than speech.

  157. palaeomerus says:

    It just comes out and it is what it is. It was made by the empty mechanistic actions of various muscles and chemical reactions without thought or design.

  158. happyfeet says:

    fetuses uber alles

  159. Ernst Schreiber says:

    The book is about Sam Gribley, a 12-year-old boy who intensely dislikes living in his parents’ cramped New York City apartment with his eight brothers and sisters. He decides to run away to his great-grandfather’s abandoned farm in the Catskill Mountains to live in the wilderness. The novel begins in the middle of Sam’s story, with Sam huddled in his treehouse home in the forest during a severe blizzard. The reader meets Frightful, Sam’s pet peregrine falcon, and The Baron, a weasel that Sam befriends. Roughly the first 80 percent of the novel is Sam’s reminiscences about how he came to be in a home made out of a hollowed-out tree in a terrible snowstorm, while the remainder of the novel is a traditional linear narrative about what happens after the snowstorm.

    And I thought I read some fantastic fiction.

  160. happyfeet says:

    on my trip i went to the catskills and that’s where I turned around and headed for the midwest Mr. Ernst

    the end point was supposed to be presque isle in maine but the new job called and needed me in chicago so I had to improvise

    the catskills have been… gentrified

    i ended up staying here cause of i got caught in a snowstorm traveling pushing on up

    they had very tasty muffins and a nice wine selection

    but it was mostly california wines and you can imagine

    i hadn’t driven all that way to be delighted by saucy california wines

    I saw some covered bridges

    I drove and drove and saw how the old timers lived up yonder and hither

    I hiked down a snowmobile trail and saw elaborate icicle formations

    but mostly the catskills were kinda lame – there was a leitmotif what ran through the whole experience about how we was all supposed to oppose the frackings

    yup

    lame

    next time I’m a aim for the adirondacks

  161. Ernst Schreiber says:

    Please understand, I don’t object to that kind of fiction. It’s just that even Jeremiah Johnson needed “Bear Claw” Chris Lapp to save his dumb pilgrim ass from winter.

  162. happyfeet says:

    it was a good book to read as far as preparing you for reading about the catcher in the rye

    that’s kinda neat

  163. happyfeet says:

    i bookmarked that movie

  164. Ernst Schreiber says:

    Holden Caufield (don’t care enough to care about proper spelling). Poor kid. Nobody loved him enough to beat his self-absorbed ass.

  165. happyfeet says:

    he was a good kid just

    he was in sort of a failure to launch situation

    bless his heart

  166. geoffb says:

    Thanks for the link to the Oakeshott book Ernst.

    Found this, while searching out the book itself, which might be of interest. A 1948 BBC radio broadcast of Michael Oakeshott on the philosophy of history. Also a couple other pdf pieces. Found only so far, not read or listened to, much less understood.

  167. geoffb says:

    Austin is attempting to out ‘Frisco, ‘Frisco. First with the “Zombie” like photo spread and now with video.

    They really don’t want anyone messing with their sacrament do they?

  168. happyfeet says:

    fascist and also a skilled cocksucking enterprise, general electric is well-positioned to suck off our food stamp slut president for a fistful of whorenanke dollars

    “With seven in ten people in Africa still lacking access to modern electricity, reliable power is critical to unlocking the region’s economic and human potential. GE supports the Power Africa Initiative which provides leadership in addressing this vital need—a win for economic development in both Africa and the U.S. GE is committed to continuing to deepen our engagement and investment in Africa’s future in critical sectors like power-generation, transportation, and healthcare.”*

  169. What many are railing against are those Leftists who began taking over the apparatus of The Church over a century ago and who have, as they have in all areas of The West, inserted their grimy selves into every nook and cranny of it.

    John Paul The Great and Benedict did there best to battle it, but they were not as successful as they wanted to be, although they did make headway. Sadly, they may have been too late.

    One also has to remember that the Pope is not an absolute monarch [except in matters of The Faith]. He is like the Holy Roman Emperors of old and sits atop a group of literal Princes, who retain a lot of autonomy.

    Some have called the Leftist presence in the apparatus of The Church ‘The Super Force’ – I like that description.

    FYI: I am a Fallen Catholic who believes that the Roman Catholic Church is one of the greatest forces for Good and a structural pillar of The West. It’s survival is essential for the survival of Western Civilization.

  170. leigh says:

    The Catholic church is imperfect as are all human endeavors. The impulse toward charity is sometimes wrongly focused into social justice rather than instruction in Salvation and the ways of the Lord.

  171. Ernst Schreiber says:

    What many are railing against are those Leftists who began taking over the apparatus of The Church over a century ago and who have, as they have in all areas of The West, inserted their grimy selves into every nook and cranny of it.

    Yeah. Dorothy Day and the Catholic Worker Movement, Liberation Theology —gives me heartburn.

  172. leigh says:

    You’re not the only one, Ernst. Charismatic Catholics are a little scary, as well.

    Just anecdotely, I have noted a distinct Irish Catholic slant on theology on the East Coast (Cardinal Dolan is part of that crew). More shaming than usual. I always liked the Italian Catholic churches when I lived in PA.

  173. When I was studying for Confirmation in the 1970’s, I had to attend one Mass per week and, if I missed the Saturday Evening or Sunday Morning ones, the last one I could attend was the Folk Mass late Sunday Afternoon.

    That was bad enough [f’ing hippies], but the Charismatics took it over and I made sure I never missed the earlier ones. They were too damn Protestant for me.

  174. leigh says:

    They are Protestants. They just haven’t come out of the closet yet. A pox on the Folk Mass, which, thank God, I haven’t had to endure for many years. I think it was a ’70s thing. My step-daughters belong to some sort of Pentacostal-ish church up in Anchorage that regularly has the folk services and three hour long preaching. No thanks. Eight o’clock Mass on Sunday: 15 minutes and it’s knocked out for the week. Daily Mass is for the old widows and other bead squeezers.

    Since our town is so small, a lot of the school functions (band concerts and such) are held in one of the Protestant churches. I cringe every time I see that drum kit up on a riser. Churches without altars or crosses seem like utility rooms to me.

  175. I agree with you, Leigh.

    The Charismatics persisted at my old Church until the early 1990’s [I know this because one of my neighbors was one]. At that point, a new regime came into control of the Church [it existed outside of the Diocese] and all that stopped. A few years ago, it even began offering an old Latin Mass.

  176. […] FOR THE GREATER GOOD, naturally. And for freedom. And stuff.. “Obamacare Regulation Effectively Bars Catholics from […]

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