I’m not saying that it’s so, mind you, but what if—what if— the torture committed by US military personnel on those freedom fighters being held illegally at Guantanamo Bay really is “equally as bad” as the torture committed by Saddam?
Isn’t it intellectually brave to ask such questions—even if, deep down, we already know the answers? I mean, don’t high-traffic leftwing blogs like the Daily Kos have an obligation to at least raise the possibility that such equivalencies exist—if only to remind us that all cultures are capable of atrocities? Shouldn’t concerned Senators stand on the Senate floor and make it clear that—were the US military actually responsible for the kinds of atrocities history ascribes to its most murderous tyrannical regimes—he will not let them stand?
Why should a simple intellectual exercise cause wingnut jingoists such consternation? How could having an elected US official publically equate the US treatment of terrorists to, say, Pol Pot, cause us any real harm? After all, whatever his rhetorical excesses, he is simply (and necessarily, one could argue!) serving to remind us that, “[…] in the halls of power in this country, there are no gods.. no saints.. not even any virgins.. just men (and women), each with their own agenda, drives and aspirations […]”
DON’T YOU SEE? THE WORLD IS NOT BLACK AND WHITE OR GOOD AND EVIL, MAN! AND WE NEED BRAVE INTELLECTUALS TO REMIND US OF THIS FROM TIME TO TIME! WE NEED NUANCE!
The rightwing howlers went crazy last week over a simple and, if parsed correctly, totally reasonable (from a particular and narrow semantic position) comparison between Gitmo and gulags. Why? Such thought exercises are an important part of keeping US arrogance in check. Even if the allegations aren’t exactly true, or the comparisons particularly apposite, we—and the rest of the world—need to be reminded constantly that they could potentially be so, and that if they could potentially be so, brave people like Kos or Senator Durbin or the folks at Amnesty International are invaluable for their vigilance against the worst kinds of potentiality—no matter how silly or unlikely those potentialities are in practice. But so what? It’s only theory. And there’s no reason to fear theory.
Remember: asking questions never hurt anyone. In fact, such curiosity is what sets us apart from the slackjawed FOXNews acolytes. WHY ARE YOU SO AFRAID OF THE DISCOURSE?
heh.
We’re all about fear, we right-wingers are. Did you see Wolcott’s post a few weeks ago explaining how right-wingers are pro-war essentially because they’re cowards, and can’t handle a little thing like the World Trade Center being blown up without going all to pieces? Turns out it’s New Yorkers’ essential bravery that causes them to vote Democrat and shrug off Islamic fundamentalism. Anyway, good to know.
Ouch. Alpha Baboon, how does your ass feel?
One wonders where that same bravery is when it comes to shrugging off a little Saddam-like Gitmo torture—like, say, not changing gloves before handling the Koran, or putting too much lemon pepper on a prisoner’s Tilapia filet.
Asking questions never hurt anyone, sure.
Unless, of course, the “question” is really just propaganda thinly diguised to resemble the outward form of a question.
The whole idea of a “question” to be, you know, obtain a substantive reply.
But, if this is the new standard for what qualifies as a “question,” it could lead to some interesting lines of “inquiry,” such as:
Is Hillary Clinton, in fact, the agent of Mephistopheles on earth, and if so, what is her larger demonic purpose?
Nice. I think this one may deserve to go into yer best of, bro.
f
Man, if this is the New Fascist Right, where the only discourse allowed is on party approved topics (or in this case ‘agrees with Jeff’ topics) I dont want any part of it. Maybe DK & DU are less hypocritical.. at least theyre consistently nuts.
Dude, if you didnt want me commenting here.. all you had to do was return my e-mail and ask me not to… the theatrics are optional… removing my comments because they didnt agree with your statements was uneccessary.
It’s not the discourse I’m afraid of.
It’s the intercourse.
Jeff,
You’re missing a closing italics tag
on that last post.
Fixed it, djc.
Sorry Baboon. Forgot that by dint of even questioning your desire to question I am become like the fascists I so despise.
THERE GOES THAT VEIL AGAIN! BEHOLD THE LIGHT! I CAN SEE THE LIGHT!
I don’t care if you comment here. Though you might try knocking off the holier than thou bullshit. I mean really, is it that surprising when people react with some vinegar to the suggestion that they, unlike you and your brave willingness to engage in critical thinking, are merely mindless Hannitized Rove-raised automatons?
Get over yourself.
Um, Mr. Baboon head, it’s Jeff’s blog, he pays for it, he can do whatever the hell he wants with it.
The bravery is in voicing one’s heartfelt moral outrage at such atrocities amid a political climate of fear, nationalism, and theocracy. It calls to mind the protester in Tiananmen Square staring down a row of tanks. Wolcott, in this case, being the protester and the 3% of Manhattanites who support Bush being the tanks, I guess.
This constant bristling at moral equivalence—it’s so gauche.
Maybe we’re worse than Saddam…
I mean, he surely knew how to handle the Qu’ran. He mishandled thousands of Kurds but he sure knew how to treat a book… I’m betting.
AB,
I would hate to see you leave the wild and energetic discourse here at Mr. G’s party. Yes, it’s his blog, so it woule be rude of me to issue invitations. But I have immensely enjoyed your contributions and their absence would, IMHO, be a loss.
Just speaking for myself. I’ll go back to my corner hunt for some lemon and sugar for my tea.
HCT
My apologies, one more sign of social clumsiness that I clicked the wrong name under “Name:” where I’m supposed to put my name to let everyone know what my name is.
HCT
DON’T SILENCE MY DISSENT WITH YOUR OPEN COMMENTS SECTION!
The sad thing is, only a handful of people can hear my screams.
Maybe I should start kissing Hewitt’s ass, or change my name to Powerfine!
If it helps, I hate the gays! And condoms!
Anybody have some Earl Grey? This slice of hot McIntosh Apple Pie needs that or some ice cream.
HCT
Man, if this is the New Fascist Right, where the only discourse allowed is on party approved topics (or in this case ‘agrees with Jeff’ topics) I dont want any part of it. Maybe DK & DU are less hypocritical.. at least theyre consistently nuts.
No he di-int. Yes he did!
Yeah, I’m thinking rebranding, my friend.
How about: InstaJeff?
Jeff Of The Web?
GoldsteinUnderground?
(I kid, here. I kid.)
How about: InstaJingo!
BuzzzMachine. The extra z means more Buzzz!
InstaJew!
Nah.
Too derivative, me.
Start slow. For instance, from now on, whenever you post about Janice Rogers Brown, make sure to include a vidcap of the courthouse gallery from To Kill a Mockingbird. Because, hey—impoverished Negroes.
PiePundit!
Noting that I’ve been linked by Pandagon (a leftwing blog, note—alas, Hewitt and LaShawn and the Powerline boys have their own rotation, and I ain’t a part of it), let me just pre-empt the carefully reasoned progressive responses sure to trickle in here:
If anybody needs me, I’ll be watching Fast Times. And yes, I’ll say hello to Phoebe Cate’s boobies for you.
Powerkine would get you more one-off typo hits.
Hey, a dime’s a dime, baby.
The rancor against Baboon (who is admitedly a weird yet entertaining regular) is a result of the complete absurdity of the question he was asking. You can have a legitimate discourse on questions where there’s a grey area- for instance, did Hussein have WMD and if so, where did they go. I firmly believe that he did have WMD and I don’t think my government lied about the issue but the question, whether he had them or didnt have them (and if so, where did they go) IS a debatable topic. Sure, it pisses me off when lefties want to argue the point- my opinion is, it doesn’t make a damn bit of difference what Hussein had or didnt have (murderious tyrant, to me, is sufficient to warrant action) but at least the question is rationale and a dissenting opinion would have some basis in fact.
Personally, I’d like to know what AB’s point was in stirring the pot on such a sensitive issue- 9-11 is an event which brings up very very strong feelings in most people and it seems illogical that unless you were looking for a rise out of people, that you would bring up and raise conspiracy questions abouut it.
Speaking of Jews, don’t forget to hoist a pint of Guinness for Joyce’s Leopold Bloom today.
perhaps: JingoPie!
Genius! Jeff just loaded the search engines to give PW links to all of the Moonbats Greatest Hitsâ„¢.
The rancor against Baboon (who is admitedly a weird yet entertaining regular) is a result of the complete absurdity of the question he was asking.
Really, that’s all?
I could have sworn that the prolific nonsensical commenting laid a certain groundwork with some folks, whereas him just accusing Goldstein of crushing his dissent (by criticizing his opinions) might have cemented the fact that he’s a complete jack-ass. But hey, what do I know.
Phoebe Cates…
I find myself unable to work, picturing the greatest topless scene in the history of cinema.
Thanks Jeff, wtf.
InstaJingoBuzzJewPowerPie
What is that from ? It’s stuck in my head now, and really bugging me. AAAHHHH !! I just can’t handle it any more !
Turing word: there, as in there is a there there.
“Carter Country”
Powerfine sounds like an electric razor for women.
Just sayin’, yanno.
If I had a nickel for everytime you started feeling sorry for yourself, I think I’d have at least sixt-five cents. For Christ’s sake Jeff, YOU ARE PROTEIN WISDOM!!!. Isn’t that enough?
(But just to rub it in, my complete real name (first and last) is tucked away inside the archives of Powerline for all eternity)
Actually, Master of None, I’m not feeling sorry for myself, just riffing on this. Forgot I read it in email and didn’t post about it here.
That’s it ! The fat little mayor used to say that, right ? Thanks, Jeff. I never would have remembered that one !
Ohhhh yes, the pain is easing …
Bill, I appreciate you assisting me in developing a more logical position on the subject- I see the error of my ways and defer to your superior analytical skills. If only I had just written “Babbon is a total jackass” I would have saved myself some time.
Nothing like a 5.3 earthquake to put things in perspective.
When I become discouraged with the world’s lack of proportion and contour, I too reinvest in my appreciation of breasts. I’m sure to some that makes me the moral equivalent of Pol Pot, but such idiocy just further contributes to a demand spike in the saline implant market. If people like AB would shut up this country might get back to the business of producing the next naturally busty pron superstar.
A fine and surprisingly moderate post Jeff (and I hope I don’t sound holier than thou). I agree with you on questions, we must ask them or how would you inspire people to think and figure out things. Questions are good even if there is no immediate answer, theories would be impossible without them.
Questioning yourself should be a daily occurence, I try it, sometimes I spout out shit before the answer comes though, and I get into trouble.
Oh, and I’m archived in PowerLine twice. Once with real name, once with a psuedonym.
(I know, I’m a dick.)
Cates! Pie! Intercourse! Does this not cause a subtle twitch in the Armaldillo’s smelly little feet?
“Powerfine sounds like an electric razor for women.”
Or maybe something from the new line of vibrating razors. Just what my wife needs…another reason to stay in the shower longer.
Nothing like a 5.3 earthquake to put things in perspective.
Ah, but was that 5.3 earthquake natural, or was it caused by the Bush junta doing illegal underground nuclear testing in order to hollow out giant caverns to be used as underground detention facilities for all the Muslims/Liberals/everyone who dares to speak out against torture?
I mean, I’m just asking.
Spamword: how, as in “How do you know it’s not true?”
For all I know it could have been Jeff’s armadillo letting one rip.
All these thought experiments are giving me a headache.
I wonder what sort of policy this one sided, fingers in my ears, “la la la I can’t hear you!” ‘discourse’ will lead the country when Bush’s presidency ends in 5, 4, 3 …
Imagine the resolve the Democrats (and half of the Republicans I suspect) have to continue this, oh I forget what war we’re in again. Oh yes, the “War On Terror”. Let’s just go back to sleep and wait for the other shoe to drop.
Can’t you just imagine the foreign policy shift back to John Kerry / Henry Kissenger consensus?
Heh. Of course, that isn’t the only complaint.
Note I called it a “la la la I can’t hear you!” discourse because there are damn good reasons for the war in Iraq. And you’ll never hear them discussed by the war’s opponents.
That’s some discourse that refuses to consider both sides of the arguement even slightly isn’t it?
You know ultraloser, I have no idea what Baboon was trying to say in that thread.
Joshua, I just assumed that AB had taken that all important first step.
I’d advise following Matt’s lead, Sean. You should experiment with thinking about Phoebe Cates’s rack.
You mean all important first step of discontinuing his medication.
PIMF
You mean that all important first step of discontinuing his medication.
I meant that all important first step which occurs in various multi-step programs.
I think Baboon has obviously lost his marbles.
He thinks “the right” may have taken out the WTC, the Pentagon, and an attempt at the WH and that Bin Laudin took credit (???) why?
Excuse me, imagining the “right” taking out the WTC, Pentagon and the White House is like imagining the democrats lining up the United Auto Workers and having them shot, or imagining Disney having all the toddlers visiting Disney Land shot.
The dude needs a rabies shot.
Okay, here goes:
If you could press a button that would let you play with Phoebe Cates’s titties–and instantly wipe out 3,000 innocents–would you do it?
What question is it that we are supposed to be so afraid of?
Someone saying that the actions of American soldiers reminds them of the Nazis or Pol Pot is not asking a question.
It is making a stupid and scurrilous accusation, and THAT is what we are upset about. Focus.
What the conspiracy theorists and the moral equivalency brigade describe as “bravery” is not bravery at all; on the contrary, it’s the height of passive-aggressive chickenshit behavior.
By hiding behind the pretense of “I’m only asking questions; what’s the matter with asking difficult questions?”, they attempt to have their cake and eat it too, i.e., to abdicate responsibility for the outrageous bullshit they spew, by (a) pretending that they didn’t really say what they so cleverly insinuated, and (b) the classic passive-aggressive move of placing the blame on the listener for getting angry, rather than on the speaker for saying something so outrageously stupid, insulting, and irresponsible.
“B-but I didn’t accuse Bush of having the Twin Towers blown up; I just asked why it’s so terrible, why it isn’t allowed, for us to consider the possibility that he might have!”
“Why are you getting angry at me? I was only joking when I said your ass was fat. Jeez, can’t anybody take a joke anymore?”
Really, if anyone can identify a meaningful distinction between those two statements, give it your best shot.
If you could press a button that would let you play with Phoebe Cates’s titties–and instantly wipe out 3,000 innocents–would you do it?
Are we talking 1982 Phoebe Cates or 2005 Phoebe Cates? ‘Cause it makes a little bit of a difference.
Even though I was always a bit more of a Debra Feuer man myself.
Daver —
The post was ironic.
Alex —
Well put.
Sean H —
Are these “innocents” fans of Kos? The comedy stylings of Margaret Cho? I need a bit more info.
All —
Baboon has been commenting here for ages. If he wishes to comment, I have no problem with that; but there is no reason whatsoever that anyone should equate being free to comment with being free from scorn for what they write in the comments. End of discussion, as far as I’m concerned.
C’mon, Alex. Do you even have to ask?
The foolish man blindly accepts the simple answers.
The intelligent man questions the simple answers.
The wise man ceases to question when the simple answers prove true.
The answer to Jeff’s question lays in the wisdom of Stephen Jay Gould.
When asked about his frustration and reluctance to answer the questions posed by Creationists and Intelligent Design theorists, Stephen Jay said during a PBS special on the subject of ‘Creationism’ .. {paraphrased} “Look, there are only so many hours you have to devote to actual, productive work – the questions these {goobers} are asking do nothing to advance the field, they simply take time away from productive work.”
Which is, I think Jeff would agree were he not a philosophy of language guy, a perfectly valid take on the whole Gitmo situation.
It’s not ‘fear’ of confronting a heretofore unconsidered opinion that will shake the very foudnation of our being … ontologically speaking, but rather a mood that resembles ‘oh fuck … here we go again’.
This, btw, is a mood Jeff will experience as he drives his then 5yo son past yet another Dairy Queen and has to endure “Dad! Can We Stop!! Dad! Can We Stop!! Dad! Can We Stop!!” for the umpteenth time.
Just sayin’ ….
So, then, a Big Mac, fries and a shake is the same thing as Al Quaeda, man. They both kill, dude, don’t they?!
I was just feeling nuanced. Sorry.
Bill, I appreciate you assisting me in developing a more logical position on the subject- I see the error of my ways and defer to your superior analytical skills. If only I had just written “Babbon is a total jackass†I would have saved myself some time.
No problem. That’s what I’m here for.
Jeff, I hope your irony will blunt the odd defensive that has seemed to appear.
As for me – those Al Qaeda detainees, those guys that want to do the 9/11 kind of stuff – line them up and shoot them. At Gitmo.
Put it on TV. ‘Specially Al Jazeera…
Spam buster: army. I’m in the army now! I’m not behind the plow!
Funny that someone would call Turbin Durbin a brave person. I just read an article that said he is subject to arrest on charges of treason and my be just that, arrested and charged. He can’t deny the charges, he made the statement supporting the enemy on national tv in front of God and everyone.
I have already told him he is a traitor and I hope he is arrested, tried, convicted and exacuted. He is now and will be in the future responsible for hundreds of deaths around the world.
Jeff, that was Sean M’s thought experiment. I’m just saying it’s better thinking about her rack than thinking about people blowing up.
Well, Jeff, I hoped it was ironic… but since I was responding to someone who claims to live with a sentient armadillo, I just thought I’d better nail the obvious point. You know?
I wanted to report that my “thought experiment” on the issue of Phoebe Cates breasts (obviously, the mid early 80’s breasts) ended successfully, with a marvelous breakthrough…
Thats all I’m saying.
“Final” ?
Another brave “thought experiment”
<blockquote>Another victory for the leftist gold standard of “tolerance,†the great enemy of free expression and the rhetorical mechanism by which totalitarianism is practiced by academic elites and leftist ideologues…
…Make no mistake, people: what you are witnessing here is a carefully crafted velvet insurgency, a diminution of freedoms on the part of leftist governments and judiciaries by way of gaining control of the parameters for acceptable speech and discussion.
…mindless cultural surrender to the execrable and anti-individualist “diversity†movement.<blockquote>
BECAUSE WE NEED A FEW OF THE POOR, PERSECUTED RIGHT-WINGERS WHO CAN JUST NEVER CATCH A BREAK IN THIS COUNTRY TO SPEAK UP AGAINST THE OVERWHELMING TIDE OF LEFTIST ORWELLIANISM! GETTING RID OF HATE SPEECH IS ONE STEP BELOW STALINIST DICTATORSHIP! “TOLERANCE” IS JUST A CODEWORD FOR SUCKING TERRORIST COCK! TRAITORS! TRAITORS!
Good one. I mean, who’d have thought you could be so clever as to draw a parallel between my excoriation of a judge for ruling that criticism of Islam is, legally, “hate spee,ch” and my own criticism of Dick Durban’s speech in which, while I’m not asking for a legal ruling—I haven’t embraced his comparision of US troops at Gimto to Nazis, Pol Pot, or Stalin.
I mean, don’t I realize that the very definition of free speech is not that everyone is entitled to his say without govt. suppression—but that everyone’s say has to be accepted and validated and can’t be in turn criticized.
New names? Hmmm….
How about “The Goldstein File”?
“Powerkine” conjures up images of superheroes whose alter egos are medieval English cows.
Where would we be without our brave leftist thinkers in the newspapers, universities and Kos fora? They have helped us understand important concepts, such as the following important equivalencies:
gitmo = Kolyma plus humidity
burka = no federally funded abortion-on-demand for fourteen year olds
throat-slitting jihadists = Alabama evangelicals who can appreciate babaganoush
It’s like, all the same, man.
How dare you question the questions, comment on comments, criticize any criticisms or scrutinize scrutiny? Why you . . . you oppressor!