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“Obama co-opts free-market rhetoric to boost health law”

Wait, you mean control over the language matters?  And here I was told such an assertion was fundamentally unserious. Washington Times:

[…] in a new twist, Obama has decided to co-opt free-market rhetoric to promote his big-government polices.

Here’s what Obama had to say to say last Wednesday at a campaign event in Colorado: “Now, let me tell you something, Denver — I don’t think your boss should get to control the health care that you get. I don’t think insurance companies should control the care that you get. I don’t think politicians should control the care that you get. I think there’s one person to make these decisions on health care, and that is you. You should make that decision.”

That’s a pretty jaw-dropping passage, considering his record of opposing reforms that would give more power to individuals and his support for reforms to quash individual choice.

Let’s review: Under the current health care system, bosses do exert a great degree of control over Americans’ care, because 150 million Americans obtain health coverage through their employers, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation. In 2008, GOP presidential candidate Sen. John McCain proposed ending the discrimination in the tax code against individuals who purchase health insurance on their own. This would have made it easier for Americans to purchase whatever coverage they wanted, rather than accept what their bosses chose for them. It also would have allowed Americans to take their policies with them from job to job. Obama blasted the idea as a candidate and rejected it as president.

Another way to give individuals more control would be through expanded health savings accounts. HSAs take power away from insurance companies by allowing individuals to spend tax-free income on health care as they choose to. But Obama undercut health savings accounts in the health care law. Instead, he worked with insurance industry lobbyists to craft a law that imposes a mandate that individuals purchase insurers’ products and then subsidizes those purchases to the tune of more than $1 trillion.

As the editorial goes on to note, “the entire thrust of Obamacare is to allow politicians to control the type of health care Americans get” — a message quite odds with the free-market, individual-choice camouflage Obama and his suddenly less overt Marxist cohort are trying out on the campaign trail.  Meaning that Obama and the New Leftists he’s in league with are returning to the post-1972 approach of hiding their ideology, and disguising the socialist thrust of their policies by framing them in the trappings of free market capitalism.

Yes.  He really does think we’re sufficiently dumbed down that he can pull it off. After all, that’s what 2008 was all about — and even many contemporary “conservative” commentators fell for it, themselves having been suitably indoctrinated by the institutional lies and structural sophistry of the modern-day academy.

But once again, this fight isn’t about health care.  And it never has been.  It’s about political control of the newly-minted subject, himself or herself a product of the move from the very capitalist system Obama abhors and yet pretends to embrace and exult.  Much as the left claims itself the champion of the poor and middle class while actively subverting them, they seek only to turn the rest of us into dependents on the State — to be “managed” by a permanent ruling elite that will grow rich off of governmental power and crony / client arrangements while we are packed and stacked in space-saving urban enclaves, our food, drink, lighting, water usage, health care, energy usage, private property ownership, and travel potential monitored, recorded, and regulated.

Obama and the modern-day Democrats are about liberal fascism, nothing more, nothing less.  Even their push for a socialist ideal — the democratic socialism of Old Europe, for instance — is largely a ruse:  the class system doesn’t collapse, but instead, by creating enough dependents and moving the GOP ever more left to compete for those dependents’ votes, they seek to replace an ideological adversary with a nominal one, leaving the US with a ruling class that changes in name only, and a dependent citizenry that moves ever more and more toward the kind of full-blown administrative welfare state upon which fascist police states are constructed.

It’s a shit sandwich disguised as a cosmopolitan delicacy  — and stamping the smiling face of “social justice” on it as proof of freshness and superiority doesn’t magically make it any less moldy or stale. Or stuffed full of shit.

To identify it, it helps to call it what it is. Not to eat several bites to show you’re a gracious, “pragmatic” guest so you can get invited to ever more shit-sandwich dinners.

83 Replies to ““Obama co-opts free-market rhetoric to boost health law””

  1. Drumwaster says:

    I don’t think your boss should get to control the health care that you get. I don’t think insurance companies should control the care that you get. I don’t think politicians should control the care that you get.

    Beyond the obvious “You lie!” moment involved with the bolded sentence, I might even agree with him. But his obvious corollary ends with the Government controlling things, whereas mine ends with such control over my life ending in MY hands.

    We can agree that it isn’t A, B or C, but Barry’s never met a Government program he didn’t like (and want to expand the authority and budget for)…

    ‘When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.’

    ‘The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’

    ‘The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master – that’s all.

  2. sdferr says:

    Obama smears himself with cuntifery, says:

    “I smell like turtles — Eat me!”

  3. leigh says:

    Heh.

  4. BigBangHunter says:

    *** BREAKING ***

    – Another shooting….This time at Texas A&M…..

  5. dicentra says:

    Much as the left claims itself the champion of the poor and middle class while actively subverting them,

    Snappy retort [0]: If the Dems are the party of the poor, isn’t it in their best interest to make sure more people are poor?

    Snappy retort [1]: If the GOP is the party of the rich, isn’t it in their best interest to make sure more people are rich?

  6. DarthLevin says:

    Barack Obama, Turd-polisher In Chief.

  7. sdferr says:

    Ted McAllister: The Images of Progressive Citizenship

    Closely related to linguistic framing, Progressives seek to control the story, the history, the myth of America.

  8. leigh says:

    BBH, the shooter appears to have been a deadbeat tenent being served an eviction notice. One dead constable and two others. Shooter is dead, as well. It doesn’t appear to be connected to the campus at A & M other than the home was in the neighborhood. It wasn’t a dorm shooting or campus housing or at least isn’t being reported as such.

  9. leigh says:

    Helen Gurley Brown, editrix of Cosmopolitan is dead at 90.

  10. BigBangHunter says:

    “…..Lets see now…If everyone of the 300 #OWS in Oakland pony up 3 bucks we’ll raise about….Uhummm….Paul, you got any brilliant ideas, cause if not we’re royally screwed…”

  11. leigh says:

    That’s awesome, BBH. Meanwhile, Obama is sucking hind teat with his crowd of 1000 in Chi yesterday.

    “Cities like Chicago are what makes America great!” he proclaimed. Say what?

  12. BigBangHunter says:

    * Shooting update: NYT eyewitness interview

    Rigo Cisneros, 40, an Army medic who served a tour in Afghanistan, observed the shooting from his home across the street.
    “After the fourth or fifth shot I stuck my head out the door and could hear actual gun fire,” he said by telephone. “I took cover and observed that there was an officer down.”

    It was unclear how long the shooting lasted, but Mr. Cisneros said the suspect exchanged fire with the police. He said the suspect seemed to be holding either an M4 or M16 assault rifle.

    He said when the shooting stopped, he ran over and found the constable shot in the chest and another officer with less severe wounds. The suspect had been shot multiple times in the legs and upper torso, he said; two passersby had also been shot. ****Mr. Cisneros said he attempted to give CPR to the constable, but said he was immobile and had no pulse. When paramedics arrived, Mr. Cisneros said he began attending the suspect, who was the other officer had already been handcuffed.

    The suspect, who lived across the street but Mr. Cisneros said he did not know him, was conscious and asked forgiveness for shooting the officers. Mr. Cisneros said the police told him that law enforcement officials initially visited the suspect’s house on Monday to deliver an eviction notice.

    – At this point its unclear whether the Shooter is still alive and in custody or has been killed. Also unclear is the number of additional non-fatal injuries to police and civilians on the scene at the time.

  13. SDN says:

    BBH, I’m firmly convinced that those $3 dinners are simply to put together a database of real names and addresses they can use to funnel unverified credit card donations through from overseas.

  14. geoffb says:

    don’t think your boss should get to control the health care that you get. I don’t think insurance companies should control the care that you get. I don’t think politicians should control the care that you get. I believe that unelected bureaucrats with advanced degrees from Ivy League schools should make all those decisions for everyone because they/we are just so much smarter than you dumb-asses.

    FTFH

  15. dicentra says:

    BBH, I’m firmly convinced that those $3 dinners are simply to put together a database of real names and addresses

    This.

    Evabody want your info: I’ve stopped giving it out to anyone.

  16. […] admirable quote from Jeff G; Obama and the modern-day Democrats are about liberal fascism, nothing more, nothing less.  Even […]

  17. BigBangHunter says:

    – SDN, whatever they do it won’t be near enough. Enerywhere you look Bummblfucks base is eroding, and his grab bag of freebies is kaput. So many of the groups he got in ’08, like the young college airheads. totally cynical and furtive to begin with, are now sitting in moms basement playing their Xboxes and trying to figure out how the hell they’re ever going to pay for that college debt on a MickeyDee salary, if they can even get that.

    – The Black vote has dropped off. The SUV surburban mom vote has dropped off. The anti-war buttheads are in open revolt, the Pravda media just isn’t reporting it.

    – With the addition of Ryan to the ticket R&R scores a huge increase in very real, and very active, Tea-party support. The Left had no choice in reveling their panic by going after the whole Medicare cannard, hoping the can scare the crap out of retiries.

    – This just isn’t 2008 for Jug ears. I see 2012 as being a shift from ‘brave new world’ to ‘old man of the sea’, and Obama’s base is the skeleton floating next to his leaky boat.

  18. Jeff G. says:

    The question is, what person who didn’t vote for Obama in 2008 is going to vote for him in 2012?

    The then 14-year-olds?

    Independents, if they are worth their salt, will turn this into a Romney landslide — only because it will be an anti-Obama backlash. Time will tell, though.

  19. Jeff G. says:

    *** BREAKING ***

    – Another shooting….This time at Texas A&M

    I won’t sleep until my rifle is in my hands, the magazines with it, and some ammo stored. So far I have none of that. The rifle comes Thursday. The ammo, though ordered over a week ago, I haven’t heard back about. And some extra mags are supposed to go in the mail today, but I’ve received no notice.

  20. BigBangHunter says:

    – He’s hoping he can shore up his base with the war-on-women bullshit, and the oldsters scare tactics, pretending he hasn’t alrreadt raped Medicare, and that theres anyway in hell it doesn’t get changed in the future regardless of which ruling class is in DC.

    – I guess either him or Axelrod read ‘The greying of America”.

  21. newrouter says:

    The ammo, though ordered over a week ago, I haven’t heard back about. And some extra mags are supposed to go in the mail today, but I’ve received no notice.

    can you tell us who you’re dealing with?

  22. BigBangHunter says:

    – I have at least six Independent friends who did not vote for either in 2008, but with the addition of Ryan, they will now go with Romney, if that’s any indication. They know Ryan is not a true moderate, but they think he’s the best thing available, in fact that the ticket is upside down.

    – To a man/woman they couldn’t stand McCain, so they just set it out because they all said they didn’t know who the fuck Obama was. Two others did vote for him, but not this time. Some of them are so pisses at what Obama has done its hard to get them to shut up about it. And yes, it makes no difference to tell them they were amply warned, they still feel betrayed for some reason.

    – (I never said I understood my group.)

  23. Jeff G. says:

    I see the anti-gun folks are back out. It’s been a delightful few weeks for them. It’s almost like there’s a narrative being formed here.

    At any rate, read this and liked it:

    Liberal definition of gun control:
    Only politicians and other criminals will be allowed to own guns

    Conservative definition of gun control:
    Nice grouping.

  24. sdferr says:

    Is there a betting pool on the salvo count getting started?

  25. Jeff G. says:

    Ammo from Wideners and Tactical Ammunition. Magazines from Global Guns & Hunting in Olathe, Kansas.

    Placed the Wideners and Tactical order of the 8th. Placed the mag order around that same time.

  26. newrouter says:

    so is their customer service any good? you sound like it isn’t but i’m not sure that’s the case.

  27. Jeff G. says:

    I haven’t heard from them so I’m going to call. Placed ammo order 5 days ago and it’s still “processing.” Is that usual? When I ordered from sgammo the stuff went out the next day or two.

  28. cranky-d says:

    Ground shipments seem to slow over the weekends. Since they don’t promise speed, you don’t get it. I would expect the ammo in a few days if they shipped on the same day as your order.

  29. Jeff G. says:

    Just looked at the FAQ: Wideners says 7-10 business days for the ammo to arrive, so I’ll give them another day or two to ship, I guess.

  30. Jeff G. says:

    They haven’t shipped, cranky-d. That’s my complaint. It says “processing” next to my order and I received no shipping notice email.

  31. cranky-d says:

    Oops, my comment wasn’t timely.

    I have never had “processing” take any significant time from Natchez, Cheaper than Dirt, or The Armory. It sounds like they may be waiting on a new shipment.

  32. cranky-d says:

    I need to either learn to refresh more often or type my comments faster.

  33. BigBangHunter says:

    – Its still the same old story:

    – The “haves” and the “have nots”…..What’s a proud Progressive to do? Why act out of course!

  34. McGehee says:

    Almost would’ve been quicker to drive to Olathe to buy those mags.

  35. Jeff G. says:

    We’ll hear of this constantly as they rush to bring down Ryan the same way they did Palin. Funny, every NATIONAL media outlet has a story on the heckling. The Dem How many ran actual stories on Fast and Furious, or the lawsuits being brought by Justice to stop the shoring up of voter rolls, or on their attempts to disenfranchise soldiers?

  36. cranky-d says:

    http://www.the-armory.com has a sale on cases of .308. $514 + shipping.

  37. Jeff G. says:

    Locally? “Paul Ryan fires up Iowa State Fair crowd in intense 12-minute speech” says DesMoines Register, though Google can’t seem to take me to the post.

  38. Jeff G. says:

    See, that’s the thing, cranky. My money is tied up in a place that’s been “processing” my order for 5 days. And I can’t afford a case right now. I bought 400 rounds of mil surplus, and 50 rounds of frangible for up close engagement where I don’t want to overpenetrate.

  39. cranky-d says:

    That was more of a general announcement, J.G., in case anyone else was thinking of getting some. I have not seen a price that cheap since before Obama was elected.

  40. cranky-d says:

    I should have qualified that by saying I haven’t seen a price that cheap for brass-cased ammo. Steel-cased is cheaper.

  41. Jeff G. says:

    No problem.

    Meanwhile, if anyone is feeling generous and wants to buy me a present, here it is. I put my money in everything else. The stock trigger is going to be fine, I’m sure, but it’s a battle trigger, and with my optics I expect to use this to hit some downrange stuff, as well. A crisp trigger pull would be bitchin.’

  42. cranky-d says:

    What brand of frangible did you get? I see a few floating around out there.

  43. Pablo says:

    When I ordered from sgammo the stuff went out the next day or two.

    I love them. Put in an order a week ago, it went out next day and it showed up today. Of course, UPS left it at my neighbor’s, but I digress. Also, I paid for a Gunbroker purchase last Tuesday and picked it up today. You need better vendors.

  44. Jeff G. says:

    Not sure of the brand off-hand, cranky. It was 108gr is all I remember.

  45. geoffb says:

    DHS probably gets theirs on time.

  46. SDN says:

    cranky, the reason for steel-cased being cheaper is that you can’t reload steel-cased.

    Jeff, my recommendation for ammo is either Cabela’s or Cheaper Than Dirt. I’ve been ordering from both for years and they’ve never taken more than a couple of days to ship unless they ended up running out, in which case I get an e-mail in those same two days explaining that. Doesn’t matter if it’s a case or a couple of boxes.

  47. Ernst Schreiber says:

    I don’t think your boss should get to control the health care that you get. I don’t think insurance companies should control the care that you get. I don’t think politicians should control the care that you get. I think there’s one person to make these decisions on health care, and that is you. You should make that decision.

    And you will!
    From Obamacare’s list of available option.

  48. Ernst Schreiber says:

    50 rounds of frangible for up close engagement where I don’t want to overpenetrate.

    Overpenetrate what? The threat, or the wall behind it?

  49. Squid says:

    “Be gentle with me, Jeff. I don’t want you overpenetrating me.”

  50. Jeff G. says:

    Overpenetrate what? The threat, or the wall behind it?

    The wall behind it, the stuff behind the wall, your family members in another room, people in a different room who aren’t hostiles, passersby who happen to be on the same trajectory as the 308 round that makes it through drywall, etc.

  51. Ernst Schreiber says:

    Overpenetrations can by fatal, don’chya know.

  52. Ernst Schreiber says:

    That was for Squid.

    Jeff, as I understand it, any round, rifle/carbine, shotgun, pistol, doesn’t matter, with enough energy to penetrate to a lethal depth (12 inches of ballistic gelatin or something like that according to the FBI whiz kids) is going to go through whatever wall material your house is constructed of. That includes frangibles, which will go through in little pieces instead of a single deformed piece.

    If it won’t go through walls, it can’t be relied upon to resolve a situation in urgent need of immediate resolution. The only way that I know of to not have missed shots travelling down range to worry about is to not have to worry about missed shots.

    (Which is a long way of saying, “get thee to a range!”)

  53. leigh says:

    I’m all for keeping and bearing arms, learning how to use them and respecting them for their fearsome abilites. I’m unclear about why you want this particular firearm, though. Is it for plugging bad guys or for demolition purposes?

  54. Ernst Schreiber says:

    Is it for plugging bad guys or for demolition purposes?

    The answer is yes.

  55. leigh says:

    Well, duh. I guess I should ask its primary purpose.

  56. Jeff G. says:

    I’m all for keeping and bearing arms, learning how to use them and respecting them for their fearsome abilites. I’m unclear about why you want this particular firearm, though. Is it for plugging bad guys or for demolition purposes?

    Haven’t I been clear? This is my SHTF gun — my “if I can only grab one rifle and bugout” gun. It has to be useful across an entire spectrum of scenarios, from CQB use to hunting to longer range “pruning” of hostiles.

    Is this really that complicated?

    I plan to keep dedicated and marked magazines with frangible bullets for truly CQB scenarios. Don’t want to shoot through something and accidentally shoot my own wife or kids.

  57. leigh says:

    I was just asking because I haven’t been reading all the gun porn threads, Jeff. I don’t want you to shoot your family either.

  58. Jeff G. says:

    Okay, Ernst. Can we agree that 308 ball ammo will travel further and penetrate more than something designed not to?

    Learned my lesson here. I won’t talk about guns anymore.

  59. leigh says:

    It’s your blog. Talk about whatever you want. Guns are quite popular with the afficianados as shown by the length of the threads.

  60. Ernst Schreiber says:

    I plan to keep dedicated and marked magazines with frangible bullets for truly CQB scenarios. Don’t want to shoot through something and accidentally shoot my own wife or kids.

    Don’t rely on frangibles fragmenting to keep the family safe from accidental harm is all I’m saying.

  61. sdferr says:

    Personally, I likes the guns threads, if only on account of the learnings. Bein’ vastly ignorant of it, it’s all good to me.

  62. Jeff G. says:

    Frangible ammo is meant for CQC and urban use. The bullet, as I understand these things, is designed to disintegrate when it hits a hard object, reducing ricochet & over penetration. It will drill through soft objects, even the head. It isn’t less lethal. It’s simply less likely to keep going once it hits a hard object.

    I am “relying” only on the fact that I’m less likely to accidentally kill the wrong person with a frangible bullet in a CQB situation. I am not telling anyone else they must use it, rely on it, accept my characterization of what it does, or anything else. Shoot what you want. Defend yourselves and your families how you want.

  63. Ernst Schreiber says:

    Apologies for drifting from critique to criticism Jeff.

    I mostly mean to rib you instead of rag on you, if you know what I mean.

    And if I’m stating the obvious in this thread, please take it as postive reinforcement.

  64. Jeff G. says:

    It’s okay, Ernst. I’m just on edge because right now I have no ammo and no rifle and as I said before, under the current political conditions I won’t relax until I take ownership.

    By the way, I was reading some CBS thread on yesterday’s shooting near Texas A and M, and I learned that people like me own guns because we’re cowardly cowards. And yet, the truth is, if it’s an option I’d much prefer beating the living snot out of someone to shooting them, and leaving them with a torn out shoulder or knee as a permanent reminder of what they tried to do.

  65. Squid says:

    “Is it for plugging bad guys or for demolition purposes?”

    The answer is yes.

    Okay, now I want to see footage of Jeff taking down a building with his new boom-stick. Maybe the ‘dillo can help with a little C4. If you deny the Internet this event, then The Terrorists Have Won(tm).

  66. Ernst Schreiber says:

    You’ve seen the Box-o-Truth, right Jeff?

    I’m not trying to talk you out of your decision. I just want for there not to be a false sense of security based on innaccurate or incomplete information* (If I have to shoot and miss, no worries, because the wall will stop a frangible round from travelling through and killing someone by accident!) Frangibles or soft-points are better than jacketed rounds, but they’re still going through the wall if you miss. Because the frangible is designed to break up, the pieces that do go through the wall may or may not kill; they may or may not injure. Don’t miss is what I’m saying.

    *Its kind of like the popular myth about shotguns. If somebody breaks into my house looking to do damage to me and mine, I’ll just pick up my trusty 12 guage like Bill Holden in The Wild Bunch. All I have to do is point and shoot! I can’t miss! And if a pellet or two of 00 buckshot do miss, they’ll stop in the wall. That’s not true. You can miss, and they will travel on through.

  67. Pablo says:

    I learned that people like me own guns because we’re cowardly cowards.

    Just like people with smoke detectors and fire extinguishers. Also, people who feel the need for a Police Department. What are you scaredys afraid of?

  68. leigh says:

    I say we all quit wearing seat belts. What are we afraid of, huh?

  69. Ernst Schreiber says:

    Those stereotypical strumpets attired in their hooke chic? The ones who get bombed, then blitzed, then plastered, before they take the shortcut through the alley or the overgrown undeveloped lot or the densely wooded park?

    Brave

  70. Ernst Schreiber says:

    BTW, Jeff, I’m happy to talk guns here, but I don’t, and won’t, on gun forums. Too much bullshit and not enough raincoats to go around.

  71. DarthLevin says:

    Speaking of ammo, why is the National Weather Service buying hollow points in bulk?

    Wouldn’t be to drain the supply chain, would it?

  72. DarthLevin says:

    I’m not horribly experienced with firearms, but you buy JHP to use, not practice with, amirite? At least for me it’s a bit spendy for plinking.

  73. Jeff G. says:

    Ernst —

    Frangibles:

    Frangible bullets break up into very small pieces upon impact with the target or the background. The penetration of this type of bullet is limited and the inflicted damage is typically near the surface of the target. They are the safest type of bullet to use in semi-populated areas, as the risk of ricochet is minimized.

    Frangible bullets are normally used to kill animals weighing less than approximately 30 pounds by creating significant damage within the first few inches of the impact point. (These small animals are typically called “varmints.”) The frangible bullets that are typically used to hunt varmints are called “varmint bullets.”

    Because controlled expansion bullets and non-expanding bullets are more strongly constructed, they may simply pass through a small animal causing less than immediately lethal damage; the animal will painfully suffer as it heals or slowly dies. A humane hunter wishes neither, so frangible bullets are the ticket for hunting small animals.

    And from globalsecurity.org:

    Frangible, or “soft,” rounds are designed to break apart when they hit walls or other hard surfaces to prevent ricochets during close-quarters combat. Frangible ammunition represents the first viable revolutionary change to firearms science in the past 100 years. Frangible ammunition is a relatively recent development in bullets, presenting a departure from the standard projectiles in use for both range shooting and personal protection. With the advent of modern hostage rescue tactics in the 1970s and 1980s, the military and police agencies began to look for ways to minimize overpenetration risks. One widely-accepted solution was the frangible round, also known as the AET (Advanced Energy Transfer) round.

    […]

    Frangible bullets are not made from a lead projectile covered with a copper jacket, but are composites of hybrid materials either pressed together at high pressure or glued together with adhesives. Frangible bullets are designed to break up into smaller pieces upon contact with harder objects or surfaces. The polymer-compound round produces no splashback and vastly decreased ricochets.

    Frangible bullets will break up into small, less harmful, pieces upon contact with anything harder than they are. This maximizes the round’s transfer of energy to the object and minimizes the chances that pieces of the bullet will exit the object at dangerous velocities. Each of the small fragments quickly loses any energy and therefore pose very little danger to any secondary targets. This means that full-power frangible bullets can be shot at target all the way up to muzzle contact without any worries that the bullet or case will ricochet and potentially hurt either the shooter or others.

    […]

    Concerns with over penetration / ricochet hazards aboard aircraft, ships and (e. g.) nuclear power plants that might release hazardous materials have led to efforts to provide small caliber ammunition with reduced ricochet, limited penetration (RRLP) for use by SOF to reduce risk to friendly forces and innocent persons. There are three general levels of frangible: Training [may be used for training only]; reduced ricochet, limited penetration[RRLP, designed for purposes stated]; and general purpose frangible [though no military requirement has been established for a general purpose round for use by conventional forces]. Specific ammunition must undergo wound ballistics testing/ legal review once developed. It can be used for: Close Quarter Battle (CQB); Military operation in Urban Terrain (MOUT); Visit Board Search and Seizure; and Counter-Narcotics (CN) Operation.

    All emphases mine.

  74. Jeff G. says:

    I’m not horribly experienced with firearms, but you buy JHP to use, not practice with, amirite? At least for me it’s a bit spendy for plinking.

    I have JHP or equivalent in my firearms at home. When I go to shoot at the range I use FMJ, with a few +p JHP thrown in to keep my pistols used to it (and to test for reliability).

    With the rifle, I’ll be using mil surplus whenever possible. But as I said, I’ll keep some mags loaded with frangibles for if and when the need arises. I’ll probably shoot a handful to get the feel of the much lighter grain ammo, but beyond that, I won’t be using it for plinking (unless some range demands it).

  75. Ernst Schreiber says:

    I don’t think I’m the one who needs to worry about inaccurate or incomplete information.

    It’s entirely possible that I’m the one who’s made the wrong conclusions. I’m not claiming expertise, just sharing opinions and observations, and I’m open to revising what conclusions I’ve made. But here’s what I would emphasise from the quotations you’ve offered:

    They [frangibles] are the safest type of bullet to use in semi-populated areas, as the risk of ricochet is minimized.

    and

    With the advent of modern hostage rescue tactics in the 1970s and 1980s, the military and police agencies began to look for ways to minimize overpenetration risks.

    and

    Frangible bullets are designed to break up into smaller pieces upon contact with harder objects or surfaces. The polymer-compound round produces no splashback and vastly decreased ricochets.

    First, “safe” qualifies “bullet” in the same way it qualifies sex. The bullet is only as safe as the shooter (we’ll ignore custom loads and re-loaders here).

    Second, note that about richochets and overpenetration risks they say “Minimized” or “decreased.” Not “eliminated.”

    And based on that, I conclude this bit:

    full-power frangible bullets can be shot at target all the way up to muzzle contact without any worries that the bullet or case will ricochet and potentially hurt either the shooter or others. [emphasis Jeff’s]

    is bullshit, in the sense that it’s an absolute statement (“without any worries”) instead of a qualified one (e.g. “greatly reduced possibility” or “liklihood”).

    Here, “edjucayte yourself, m’kay?” (he said, joking around in his best Mr. Mackey impression). Scroll down about half way. This is also worth noting.

    Again. I agree that frangibles and other hunting rounds are preferable to FMJs. But preferable isn’t ideal. All I’m saying is spend enough time shooting to become proficient at it, and then keep shooting to stay proficient (which you know and plan to do anyways).

    Then, once you know you can consistently hit what you’re aiming at, you won’t have to worry about what happens to the fragments after they hit the wall instead of the bad guy.

    Because the wall won’t get hit in the first place.

  76. Jeff G. says:

    Again. I agree that frangibles and other hunting rounds are preferable to FMJs. But preferable isn’t ideal. All I’m saying is spend enough time shooting to become proficient at it, and then keep shooting to stay proficient (which you know and plan to do anyways).

    Then why say it?

    Then, once you know you can consistently hit what you’re aiming at, you won’t have to worry about what happens to the fragments after they hit the wall instead of the bad guy.

    Because the wall won’t get hit in the first place.

    Talk about qualified absolutes.

    I’ve said all I have to say on the subject. I’m keeping special mags for potential CQB situations that require me to reduce the risk of harming something I don’t want to destroy. Which is what I claimed I wanted them for in the first place. And I believe I’ve selected the right tools for that job, my parameters for the hypothetical being what they are.

  77. Ernst Schreiber says:

    Then why say it?

    I guess because I’m an opinionated jerk and a pompous ass. In my defense, it was meant to be constructive.

    I’ll shut up now, before I wear out my welcome [rueful half smile].

  78. Jeff G. says:

    In my defense, it was meant to be constructive.

    Okay. Thanks, then.

  79. Ernst Schreiber says:

    I hope you get a lot of enjoyment out the time you spend shooting and that you never have to shoot for any other reason.

    Sorry I got under skin.

  80. Ernst Schreiber says:

    shoulda been a “your” in there

    One of those days.

  81. Jeff G. says:

    Not a problem, Ernst. I’ll sleep better soon, I hope.

  82. Ernst Schreiber says:

    The only thing in the promos for that stupid GBC show ABC was running last spring that almost made me tune in and watch was the bit about the daughter(?) asking her mother(?) what she was so afraid of, and Mom racking her (chrome plated, of course) 12. guage pump action and saying “not a damn thing.”

    So I hear you.

    Someday when you get the chance, pick up a Ruger 10/22 and take the boys to the range and teach them how to shoot.

    Some of the best time I spent with the old man was spent that way.

  83. newrouter says:

    Originally, Senate Bill 249 was a quiet agriculture bill that passed in the California Senate back in May. With sneaky back-door tactics, Senator Yee turned the bill into a gun ban monster.

    SB 249, as amended, would make a small but profound change to the definition of what constitutes a detachable magazine for a semiautomatic firearm. By doing so, hundreds of thousands of semi-automatic rifles, which were legally sold in California over the last decade, would become illegal on July 1, 2013.

    The existing definition of detachable magazine was used by Governor Brown’s administration for the four years he served as Attorney General.

    Senator Yee’s bill has no provisions to allow permitting, licensing or reimbursement for the loss of valuable property. Worse yet, the bill doesn’t require a public notice program to advise owners of this change in state law.

    link

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