Jim Lindgren, writing at Volokh:
[…] there is a 1971 Opinion of the Wisconsin Attorney General that determined that a bill changing collective bargaining rights was not a fiscal statute under the constitution and did not require a three-fifths quorum. Thus the Republican senators do not need the presence of the Democrats to pass the most controversial parts of Wisconsin Senate Bill 11.
[…]
[…] in State v. Stitt (1983), the Wisconsin Supreme Court determined that the issuance of short-term debt was not debt under Article VIII of the constitution and thus was not “fiscal” so as to trigger the three-fifths quorum and roll call requirements.
The Wisconsin attorney general in 1971 gave a formal opinion to the legislature that a bill that changed collective bargaining rights substantially was not fiscal in nature and was not subject to the three-fifths super quorum provision. Because collective bargaining rights and that very statutory chapter (ch. 111) are at the heart of the proposed Senate Bill 11, the most controversial portions of the bill could be passed constitutionally with just a simple majority of elected members present, without a three-fifths quorum.
Though some provisions in Senate Bill 11 are clearly fiscal — e.g., increasing appropriations for needy families, health care, and corrections — much of the bill is not fiscal. Even provisions that observers might reasonably assume to be fiscal are probably not fiscal under Wisconsin law, such as the rule that in the future employers can agree to pay no more than 88% of health care costs.
Because much of Senate Bill 11 is not subject to the three-fifths quorum, these portions could be separated from the rest of the bill and passed by majority vote in the presence of a simple majority of the elected Senators. With Republicans holding 19 of the Wisconsin Senate’s 33 seats, Republicans thus constitute a quorum to pass much of Senate Bill 11 without any Democratic Senators present or voting.
I heard this idea floated quite a few times early on in the Dem walkout, but nothing ever came of it.
Walker and the Republicans seem eager to avoid separating out portions of the bill — presumably because they realize that they have the votes once the Democrats (inevitably) return, and so don’t want to be accused of using procedural “tricks” to “ram through” legislation.
Still, reports that Walker is negotiating with the Democrats for their return have me a bit worried: one report I heard intimated that Democrats are getting concessions in the area of bargaining rights for the union. If this is the case, the Republicans and Walker have lost; the spin on such concessions will doubtless be that the Democrats, by running away and hiding, were able to save the rights of union workers — with the further suggestion that the fiscal crisis Walker claimed couldn’t have been as bad as he said, else he wouldn’t have room to make concessions to begin with (as he has long claimed).
Rather than give in to a bunch of derelict cowards doing the bidding of their union paymasters, the GOP would do better to use the procedural circumvention of quorum. Unless, of course, Walker is going to stick to his guns. In which case, waiting the Dems out — while handing out pink slips to motivate their return — is probably the best option.
(thanks to GeoffB)
I too have heard talk of splitting off portions of the bill. This piece, the working paper and op-ed were the first time I’d seen the case laid out by a legal expert. In this case a law professor, James Lindgren, at Northwestern University. That was what I found of interest to me.
They should just have the cowards arrested. Or give them the chance to vote by phone or by internet, thus making the point of quorum moot.
I really doubt he’s going to negotiate away anything on collective bargaining.
Look at the most recent action. He’s been giving speeches on the topic across the state. Where? In the districts of those Dems most vulnerable to recalls. That’s not an accident. Look at his speech regarding the budget proper. Those cuts he’s proposing are the deficit reducing equivalent of the US cutting about $1.5 trillion this year. (As in, he’s three Rand Pauls of staunch and rock ribbedity.) In the legislature they keep adding up consequences. Take away direct deposit. Per day fines. Contempt. They’re now saying publicly that they know when and where some of them have been coming back into the state. All in all, they’ve been moving towards a more hardline negotiating position almost daily.
To cap it off, starting Friday or Monday, he’ll send out an initial 1,500 lay off notices.
I honestly think they realize that all of our chips are in the pot. I could be wrong but if I am, the GOP is done in Wisconsin. The conservatives wouldn’t forgive them for a generation.
I think they’re more worried about the be-robed practitioners of the higher legal
interpretationdivination discovering lo! collective bargaining is a fiscal matter after all! and having everything come undone. If they pass it with one democrat present (my preference would be that he or she be there in shackles), they’re bullet proof.At least until the Federal Courts get involved.
That is true, btw, Ernst.
I keep hearing that if we follow that path it’ll only be after the Supreme Court election on April 5th.
I heard on Rush that maybe they’ll toss ’em the bone of letting ’em collectively bargain workplace conditions like hours and safety. Crowing about saving the right to bargain over how they’ll meet OSHA requirements seems pretty Phyrric to me.
It would actually be best if we could talk them into coming back on some worthless detail like that.
Their base would eat them alive.
I think Walker is waiting them out – there is absolutely no way the majority can cave, or they might as well go hme now and finnd new jobs….
Basically, if we retain A) no automatic dues collection, B) yearly secret union votes and C)the end to collective bargaining for benefits and pensions, they’re done as a political force. In reality, we win. I don’t particularly care if they somehow call it a “win” while their unions suddenly see a 35% drop in dues and then they begin to voluntarily dissolve all while drastically reducing the costs on local governments and school districts across the state.
That’s the sorta “winning” that ends with some schoolchild one day saying, “Hey, didn’t Wisconsin used to have public unions?”
How much more time on the lam are they gonna get out of Julie Lassa? I’m sure she’s not happy about the situation as it is, but is she going to give birth out of state to prevent a vote they’re going to lose anyway?
Prediction: They’ll use her for cover when they cave.
so is it “the protesters” against “the dem senators” now?
Walker twittered tonight: “Trying to reach out to reasonable senators with path home. Some in Sen Dem caucus are blocking that path”
Plus, Minority leader Miller appears to have some interesting questions to answer. As do they all. Anyone have any more insight into the video at the link below? Something? Nothing?
http://hotair.com/archives/2011/03/03/conspiracy-to-stall-wi-budget-repair-bill/
bh,
“I honestly think they realize that all of our chips are in the pot. I could be wrong but if I am, the GOP is done in Wisconsin. The conservatives wouldn’t forgive them for a generation.”
From my conversations with like minded, yes.
Oh. 2 years for recert was another condition I heard the Dems’d be getting for the union.
Something and nothing referring to do you think there is any “there” there?
All the contract pushes before this bill passes pretty much pisses me off.
“All the contract pushes before this bill passes pretty much pisses me off.”
in those jurisdictions that is what the next election is about!
Bh – Gov Daniels to begin fining the AWOL cowards $250 per day. Gov Walker seems to be on an even more aggressive path. Kudos.
I was kind of joking above, nut if you allowed internet and phone voting, wouldn’t that put the quorum issue to rest?
Do you listen to Mark Belling on Milwaukee 1130 AM, Mr. B? (He has his shows podcasted later and I think they have a livestream as well.)
He’s been covering that angle in pretty good detail. Apparently Waukesha County Technical College is currently trying to sneak a new contract through as well.
Those school districts and entities can do that if they want. They’ll still see their state aid slashed. They’ll have to fire a ton of teachers on their own then. Good for them. I hope they enjoy explaining their actions to their local voters.
Mr B – Collusion is too kind of a word if that is true.
I really hope that isn’t true. Part of the beauty of a yearly recert vote is that it doesn’t give the rank and file time to forget whatever might be pissing them off about the union bosses most recently.
the long haul
link
The devil of course is in the details. If the Dems ever win control in WI again, and if the language is vague enough, I could see teachers getting paid as if they were working 8 days a week, or something like that. So it might be best to go nuclear on their asses, y’know? For the sureity.
OT:
Is there a reason that the archives no longer appear in the sidebar?
That’s good, JD. I hope he special sessions them to death.
Taking off for a few weeks is probably sorta fun. Knowing you have to stay out of state until next year probably makes you rethink it a bit.
OH NO, THIS IS JUST LIKE EGYPT, FREE SPEECH IS IMPERI–
Wait, you mean this is completely permitted by our legislature and always has been? ‘k, carry on with the democracy.
(No, seriously, I was watching a bunch of very uninformed teenagers ‘argue’ [read: cling to each other and provide tearful reassurances that the ‘good guys’ would triumph somehow!!] politics based on stuff released by thinkprogress and other mouths of the unions and the Democratic party about how Walker and the GOP in WI had SQUASHED ALL OPPOSITION AND FREEDOM OF SPEECH, JUST LIKE IN EGYPT, TO RAM THROUGH LEGISLATION. And Walker is the puppet of the Sinister Koch Brothers, whose grandmother was Ilse Koch, THE BITCH OF BUCHENWALD, who sewed human-skin lampshades. So, you know, obviously they must be terrible people who only want to do us harm. [Amusingly I cannot verify her relationship to the Koch brothers.]
I just pointed them at various articles linked here on what removal of collective bargaining actually means, rather than pointing out the current administration’s fetish for people who have actually killed other people *coughayerscough* and will continue to do so.)
“Barack Obama will require you to work. He is going to demand that you shed your cynicism. That you put down your divisions. That you come out of your isolation, that you move out of your comfort zones. That you push yourselves to be better. And that you engage. Barack will never allow you to go back to your lives as usual, uninvolved, uninformed.”
sounds like glenn beck
Bh – amen.
Is the collusion with the Mayor of Madison criminal?
I couldn’t tell you the answer to that, JD. Another guy I listen to on the radio is a former prosecutor and he normally starts citing statutes left and right when he thinks something is illegal. He didn’t so I sorta assume it’s just unethical, sleazy and standard operating procedure for a Democrat.
Department of Redundancy Department on line 1.
“greta: we’ve got john mclame
mclame; we need a no fly zone”
we’re so effed
Yes. Somebody’s antiquated work computer virus detection program was reading every single link on every page and was causing the server to overload and the site to crash.
Moving the archives took a lot of the strain off, I was told.
I think a quorum only applies to a floor vote (as compared to a committee vote where they can agree to anything they want for protocol) and you legally need to be present for a floor vote.
One reason I’m fairly confident about that is that the Dems had a guy they actually released from prison for the day so that he could vote when they tried to lameduck these contracts at the end of last year. If he could have just phoned it in, they never would have taken such a horrible PR hit.
By recert are you talking about this?
From SB11:
“This bill requires an annual certification
election of the labor organization that represents each collective bargaining unit
containing general employees.”
I’ll check out Belling bh. His voice annoys me, so typicall no. But, in this case I will endure.
Busy at wrk. bbl
http://legis.wisconsin.gov/JR1SB-11.pdf
I do believe he slammed the door on any further overnight action in the capitol with that line. Now the governor can ‘limit times and places’ of rallies. Not exactly what the protesters wanted when they filed the motions, I’d guess. LOL
Sorry to hear about the archive problem.
“The world that we used to know
People tell me it don’t turn no more
The places we used to go
Familiar faces that ain’t smilin’ like before
The time of our time has come and gone
I fear we been waiting too long”
link
“Ultimately, Peggy Lautenschlager, the union attorney in the Capitol lawsuit, came in to inform protesters the Capitol would reopen Monday, but they would have to leave tonight.”
Makes me think they might be voting tomorow.
Peggy Lautenschlager …. upstanding citizen
Is there a reason that the archives no longer appear in the sidebar?
Ahyep, Michael Moore ate them.
Peggy Lautenschlager …. upstanding citizen
Maybe the protesters can catch a ride home from her.
Twould be a good idea except the protesters only talk about carpooling. When push comes to shove, they usually individually catch a limo after having the driver idle for several hours waiting on them.
I think they should declare the Craven Democrats to be derelict in their official duties and accuse them of violating their own oaths of office. Then Censure them and vote to throw them out of office.
That would get them back.
Interview with one of the lawyers involved in WI.
See Jim Troupis link. http://www.newstalk1130.com/pages/mckenna_blog.html
I am so disgusted with what the Democrats are doing here. Censure, recall, impeach. All options better be fair game now.
Volokh digs into the legal aspects a bit as well, but I haven’t had time (working) to digest it. http://volokh.com/2011/03/04/the-arrest-clause-of-the-wisconsin-constitution-applies-only-to-court-cases-not-to-compulsory-attendance/
Just fire all of them and be done with it. Teachers included. That would damn sure save money over a years time. Then when the unions try to prevent new hires from crossing the picket line they’ll see just in what low esteem the people of Wisconsin hold them in. In the meantime, the kids could probably use a year off from their leftist indoctrination camp, and the folks of Wisconsin can dole out their own criminal justice system when necessary.
Hey, its probably going to come down to this sooner or later anyway, might as well start someplace. Maybe it will help other places focus more on reality and consequences of not living iy.
handbags for less…
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