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Has the free market failed?

No. And let’s not forget it.

Most important I think is Friedman’s final salvo, because it cuts through all the faux nobility and solicitousness of “compassionate” leftism and gets to the heart of the matter: who among us presumes to take on the role of angel(s)-in-chief?

The answer — left unstated — is that anyone who would volunteer for the position is by that very act of volunteering immediately disqualified as insufficiently humble for the task.

So. The defense rests.

99 Replies to “Has the free market failed?”

  1. Jeffersonian says:

    Yeah, but that was before Sheriff Bart rode in on his unicorn.

  2. Spies, Brigands, and Pirates says:

    A truly great American. In a just world, his picture would be on our stamps and money

    But man, talk about an intellectual mismatch — it’s like Peewee Hermann trying to box Mike Tyson in his prime.

  3. lee says:

    Poor old Milt. He just doesn’t get that self interest=greed=bad, with elites being exempt due to their good intentions.

    Plus, America being the most successful nation in history has nothing to do with free enterprise, it’s all about the imperialism.

    I’m surprised the stupid fucker isn’t wearing a flag pin.

  4. See, that’s exactly why Milt didn’t do better in Hollywood.

  5. It’s a shame too, he was awesome in “Sneakers”

  6. Jeff G. says:

    Still, this should resonate: Phil is despairing over inequity of outcome such that he wants the system rigged so that outcomes are even. There is no better way than that to squelch ambition and advancement.

    But advocating for equality of opportunity brings with it, as Phil recognizes and tries to deflect, the inevitable suggestion that some people will do far more with their opportunities than others, leaving some people better off than others. But rather than romanticize ambition, creativity, innovation, and hard work, Phil chooses to romanticize poverty, which is, in nearly every instance in which he romanticizes it, a result either of governmental attempts to control outcomes, or else failures to take advantage of equality of opportunity on the part of individuals.

    He deconstructs his own argument at the very moment he makes it. Those impoverished people he claims to champion are either the victims of socialism and communism (which is the unspoken system fix for which Phil is advocating), or else are those who, though given equal opportunity, have not taken advantage of it.

    Caveat: I’m all for every measure that advances equality of opportunity, which is why for me, economic affirmative action programs are still on the table. I’m also not a fan of the kind of indentured servitude the current university system / student loan cabal has set up, so I’d like to see reforms made there, as well. So I don’t believe that every person who hasn’t succeeded in a free market system lacks ambition, drive, etc — and I freely admit to barriers, both historical and legislative, that prevent some people from succeeding and contribute to their problems. And those are discussions for a different day.

    But cosmetic emotional fixes of the kind imagined by socialism or communism rub against human instinct. Which is why they always fail, and always will fail. The try to inflict an idea of “fairness” on the species that the species is built to resist.

    You’d think these champions of science would recognize that.

  7. B Moe says:

    I would like to see more people go after that “manipulating the system” bullshit. How do you manipulate the free enterprise system? By finding goods and services people want and figuring out the most efficient way to provide it to them. That is how capitalists get rich. That is how society prospers. That is considered evil by pinheads and fools. We need to be fucking screaming this from the rooftops right now.

    And also start trying to get a workable definition of the word greed, because I don’t understand the way it is currently being used.

  8. router says:

    a workable definition of the word greed

    PelosiObamaReid $2,000,000,000,000 in 30 days

  9. Spies, Brigands, and Pirates says:

    Phil is despairing over inequity of outcome such that he wants the system rigged so that outcomes are even.

    The Gross World Product for 2008 was $10,500 per capita.

    What do you suppose the odds are that Phil and Marlo are living on that? I suspect that the meals at Chez Donahue tend more toward the wagyu end of the spectrum.

    Caveat: I’m all for every measure that advances equality of opportunity

    Absolutely. I like public libraries just fine. Public schools used to be good, and could be again.

    Hell, I’d even go for a taxpayer-subsidized Kindle, XO, or something similar being provided at no charge to every kid.

    I remember watching Free to Choose on PBS(!) when I was just a pup, then checking out the book and reading it. It was transformative.

  10. Synova says:

    Elevating intentions as virtue, pure altruism, is something that I thought was a little silly when I skimmed/flipped through Atlas Shrugged so many years ago.

    And then every now and then someone makes a remark that does exactly that and I’m shocked all over again.

    Is it about rewarding virtue, or is it about feeding people? Capitalism works better at feeding people because humans aren’t forced to behave in unnatural ways. Better INTENTIONS that result in more misery shouldn’t be lauded… “Her heart was in the right place,” is only a comfort when the result is inconvenient rather than actively harmful.

    My son (18 next week, my oldest) was talking about hyper-inflation today (I have not a clue why) and so we talked a bit about good intentions and market realities. And Zimbabwe. And Venezuela.

    I’ll have to make sure I put him on to Milton.

  11. You are right.

    But you also know that as soon as the word “communist” came out of Milt’s mouth he lost the debate to That Girl’s husband.

  12. Dan Collins says:

    If I were searching for angels, I suppose the jungles of Borneo, or the highlands of Madagascar or the most remote parts of the Amazon might yields some who haven’t, you know, been touched by the scourge of Western civilization.

  13. Synova says:

    I don’t think he’s actually defending greed so much as deflating the arguments that use greed as a measurement of virtue and a predictor of outcomes.

  14. Hadlowe says:

    It always sets my bullshit alert off when someone is agitating for institutional fixes for inequities of circumstance. First, any prescriptive measures when dealing with more than four people at a time are a shot in the dark at best. Just too many variables to accurately say project x will lead to outcome y when a large amount of individual egos are involved.

    Second, like imagining an infinite circle or a fourth dimension, loving humanity is essentially impossible for human beings to accomplish. It’s a spiffy concept in the abstract, but at most a person who claims to love humanity will achieve a sort of general sympathy for small parts of it. Most of the time, it’s an outright lie with the purpose of setting the liar apart as an unassailably virtuous paragon of human goodness fluffy googoo fluff.

    The question that should come after anyone claims to be doing something for the good of humanity is, “What’s your angle?” I can get along with folks with small goals, like building a skyscraper or sending a man to Mars. I actively distrust those with big goals, like making people love each other and just generally get along.

  15. Clayton, in Mississippi says:

    As of 6:01pm CST, there’s nothing in the graphic box under the item headline — no picture, no video, no chart, no visible link to anything, no armadillo, nothing, nada, zilch, big zip.point.doo-doo

  16. B Moe says:

    My definition of greed is someone who claims to have a right to more than they have earned.

    That doesn’t really square with the way the left uses it. In fact, it is almost the exact opposite.

  17. router says:

    one person’s greed is another person’s ambition. is bill gates greed/ambition bad for the world?

  18. dicentra says:

    One of the basic differences between the right and the left is that the right sees people as agents of their destinies whereas the left sees them as victims of circumstance, including oppression by those lucky enough to be in power.

    Trouble is, both things come into play. My great-great grandfather lost his farm during the depression and drought in the 1930s (that town ceased to exist in toto) and from that day on he never had a steady job until the day he died. Not for lack of trying: he was a hard-working, honest man, but he just couldn’t land a steady job. He kept body and soul together through a series of odd jobs. His best efforts couldn’t overcome the difficulty of his circumstances.

    I, for example, am very good at my job (technical writer), even if I do say so myself. But no one will ever pay big bux for my skills because the market would never justify it. Those who make big bux sometimes have worked their butts off, but they also have the ability to succeed in a high-paying job. I don’t.

    Luckily for me, I am content with my very middle-quintile salary, so I don’t give a rip if I don’t “progress” any farther. But I also don’t like hearing the exceedingly rich tell me that their riches are exclusively the result of their hard work. They were lucky, too.

    But you can also be born very lucky–say, being born in the USA in the late 20th century–and still blow it if you’re a lazy moron who doesn’t have the sense to finish school and pursue the opportunities that present themselves.

    Look, it’s not about the “fairness.” It’s about control. If it really were about fairness, they would do all they could to help the poor elevate their status, but instead they obsess about taking the rich down.

    Rich people are harder to control, you see. Best get them on their knees and put the Smart People in power.

    That, you see, is fair.

    And also start trying to get a workable definition of the word greed, because I don’t understand the way it is currently being used.

    Left: Greed is the desire to have more than somebody else, no matter what the means and no matter the results. Even if your pursuit of profits employs thousands more.

    Right: Greed is one of the seven deadly sins, wherein you pursue riches at the expense of everything else–honesty, integrity, lawfulness, relationships, etc. The greedy cannot be sated. Greed is not to be confused with “ambition,” which is the desire to improve one’s status or “self-interest,” which is the desire to eat every day, wear clothes, and sleep under a roof of some sort.

  19. Adriane says:

    #17. As one who was forced by contract to produce documentation with MS Word, when the customer wanted desktop publication quality … HELL YES!

  20. Spies, Brigands, and Pirates says:

    loving humanity is essentially impossible for human beings to accomplish.

    I highly recommend Welcome to the Monkeysphere.

  21. router says:

    The greedy cannot be sated. Greed is not to be confused with “ambition,”

    baracky confounds this definition

  22. router says:

    baracky has a greedy ambition perhaps

  23. JHoward says:

    Who was it said that the left hauls everybody down to the basest of conditions whereas the right bootstraps as many as want it up as high as they can achieve? (In which the right, as it turns out, is the champion of, er, the social economic collective, but that’s besides this point.)

    Oh, that was Rush Lampoonedbaugh, presently the left’s* cartoon. At any rate, it wasn’t the guy who uttered this next bit of prescience, whomever he was.

    A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations has been 200 years.

    Great nations rise and fall. The people go from bondage to spiritual truth, to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependence, from dependence back again to bondage.

    I sense the left is about scared shitless (with the rest of us) at this point. Ha. The good thing about this little globe-f*cking they’re handing us is that at least the sec-progg rhetorical bullshit’s at something of a lull. It seems the good Mr. Goldstein was spot-the-heck-on about language, meaning, and intent, and that in conjunction with some other guy before him who was right about, and I paraphrase, there being no bullshitting leftist sec-progg lying liars in foxholes…

    *Did I say left?

  24. Carin says:

    Dicentra – I think we need to also think about what it means to be “poor” in our society. Many people don’t have a lot but they have a car, food, a roof over their head, and health insurance. Is such a person “poor”? They wouldn’t be in many other societies. The same materialism that is so criticized by leftests is the exact same “materialism” that the poor is complaining they haven’t been able to acheived. It’s a schizophrenic message.

    I fear that the “fair” world imagined by the left is one in which everyone has a car, food, roof and health insurance … but little else.

  25. phreshone says:

    Barry has ambition… the ambition of one who is wed to Marxist-Leninism…

    The Revolution is in full swing… the means of production are being returned to proletariat… all hail the Politburo class of DC and Manhattan…

  26. router says:

    what it means to be “poor” in our society.

    materially there are no “poor” in this society. there are great number of idiots.

  27. Carin says:

    I see Patterico has a post up “I hope Rush fails.” You see, because, the majority of Americans are too stupid to understand the nuance of what Rush says, so we need to watch what we say so as to not … I dunno, allow stupid people to capitalize by misrepresenting what he said?

    Because, we all know that liberals and the media NEVER take things out of context or flat out lie about what a conservative says. (cough)Sarah Palin (cough).

  28. Carin says:

    Well, router, there are some poor. Let’s not overstate. But, honestly, I think if we could reform the system, we could easily afford to support those who were actually poor.

  29. Rusty says:

    is bill gates greed/ambition bad for the world?
    No. He has created more oppotunities for a greater number of people than everyone in the White House right now.

    Greed doesn’t necessaritly mean money, just as much as you can get of whatever it is you desire. In Barakys case, it’s power.

  30. Adriane says:

    You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice. If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice. You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill. I will choose a path that’s clear. I will choose free will.

    “It is impossible to speak in such a way that you cannot be misunderstood.” — Karl Popper, via AmericanDigest.org

  31. router says:

    Well, router, there are some poor

    i think poor is some third world type living next to and making a living of the the garbage dump. these poor people here, having access to free public schools, subsidized food and housing are greedy.

  32. dicentra says:

    Adriane: “As one who was forced by contract to produce documentation with MS Word, when the customer wanted desktop publication quality … HELL YES!”

    Oh yes, I’ve been there, done that, got the commemorative plate set. But I can do you one better: They often want a student manual done in PowerPoint. Yes. Using the notes page for the text. Try doing bullets and numbered steps in that hellhole of a space.

  33. dicentra says:

    Nobody minds taking care of people who are unlucky enough to never be able to take care of themselves. It’s taking care of the fit that rankles. But it’s worse for them than it is for us, that’s for sure. MUCH worse. Being on the dole kills the soul.

    Hey, that rhymes!

  34. Carin says:

    It doesn’t matter what I say
    So long as I sing with inflection
    That makes you feel that I’ll convey
    Some inner truth of vast reflection
    But I’ve said nothing so far
    And I can keep it up for as long as it takes
    And it don’t matter who you are
    If I’m doing my job then it’s your resolve that breaks

    John Popper
    Suck it in, suck it in, suck it in, if you’re Rin Tin Tin or Anne Boleyn …

  35. Carin says:

    That song reminded me of listening to Baracky. Plus, John Popper, v Karl Popper. Popped right into my head.

  36. Carin says:

    Well, I’ve got a good example of “poor” who need assistance. Kids in foster care. Often very high needs … etc, these kids need help from society.

    Personally, I think a lot of “poor” people are lazy. Oh, it must kill thor that he can’t comment. But, take a walk through many poor areas and you’ll see trash on lawns, unkept /overgrown gardens, etc. It doesn’t cost anything to throw shit away. There’s a house down from my old house, and this trashy family moved in … they often don’t even close their front screen door, and it flaps in the wind. Never did that before. Now the house has been transformed into ghetto.

  37. Carin says:

    Well, CRAP. Is 8 pm Eastern time the witching hour? My husband is killing nazi zombies with the children, and i’m BORED. Just watch, I’ll go to bed and everyone will show up … pout.

  38. geoffb says:

    “How do you manipulate the free enterprise system?”

    The real manipulation has to come with government assistance. Only they are big enough to rig the system. This always results in much more poverty for the many and riches for the few.

    Crony capitalism is a name for it though it is not capitalism. It is one of the foundations of the “Chicago Way” and crony corruption is what it is. The progressives are regressing us back to the system that prevailed for most of human existence, might makes right. After all as they keep telling us, “WE WON!”.

  39. router says:

    crony capitalism is pretty much the southside of chicago

  40. Mr. Pink says:

    Carin can you do me a favor and ask your husband if there is a way to kill those Nazi zombies without beating the game?

  41. Sdferr says:

    Here’s a couple of brief paeans to the wonders of the free market, the sorts of wonders that happen every day and that neither we, nor our leaders such as Baracky remark on nearly enough. First Don Boudreaux, then a link he provides to a beauty of a very short essay of remarks on nectarines by Robert Higgs.

  42. hf says:

    I think maggie would be good AIC. Either her or Jared Padalecki. They could flip for it.

  43. hf says:

    I think maggie would be good AIC. Either her or Jared Padalecki. They could flip for it.

  44. dicentra says:

    But, take a walk through many poor areas and you’ll see trash on lawns, unkempt/overgrown gardens, etc. It doesn’t cost anything to throw shit away.

    That’s partly a function of “learned helplessness” and associated depression. If your childhood was a real drag you couldn’t escape from, you’ll develop the attitude that nothing you do will actually make things better. And depression makes it hard to clean up: normally, you clean up because you know you’ll feel better afterward. But if you have depression, nothing makes you feel better.

    And don’t forget how hard it is to care about your surroundings when you’re drunk or high or hung over most of the time.

    Another problem is the Latino immigrants. In their native countries, they didn’t have yards, and no one had a lawn to mow except the super-rich. The culture of grass-keeping isn’t part of their ethos, so they pretty much don’t know what to do with a swathe of grass. And they’re not used to accumulating tons of STUFF, either.

    And then yeah, there’s just plain lazy and unmotivated. But if we’re going to help the poor, we have to help their psychology: help them get rid of learned helplessness, help them care if they live or die, help them with addictions, help them with other junk. Keeping in mind always that not everyone can be or wants to be helped.

  45. Carin says:

    Well, you could borrow my son – who unlocked it for my family. Said son says you can also buy it online from Z-box live or something. It’s the only game they now play. I haven’t seen them play COD in weeks.

  46. Carin says:

    xbox live. not zbox. I haven’t even hit that beer yet. Though I can hear it calling to me from the back of the fridge.

  47. urthshu says:

    >>But if we’re going to help the poor, we have to help their psychology

    Um, no. You’re adopting a medical model to address a socio-economic issue. They’re not sick. I do know exactly what you refer to by ‘learned helplessness’ [Seligman, IIRC] but that isn’t really the issue. Stop treating the poor as if they were children. God damn it, just don’t.

  48. Carin says:

    Yea, I can see that dicentra. But, it’s such an easy thing to do. Plant a few flowers. edge your lawn. I always took extra care with my front garden, hoping that it would inspire others. I think it does a bit, and my block had some great gardens.

  49. router says:

    “help them get rid of learned helplessness”

    do we have to make their beds for them?

  50. Carin says:

    Well, I’m more for the “call it like it is” model. CLEAN UP YOUR SHIT. There is no excuse for the state of people’s homes in the ghettos. No excuse. I can understand if they can afford a new roof. But the old couch on the porch? THAT can go.

  51. router says:

    we have to help their psychology:

    who’s better to do that the local clergy/neighbors or the gov’t?

  52. Carin says:

    Oh, the government can’t do shit. They’re the ones who have convinced them that they are “victims” of their environment. I’m sure they walk out the door every day bemoaning the fact that that their ‘hood is so gross, oblivious to the fact that it’s their own fault.

  53. urthshu says:

    >>do we have to make their beds for them?

    Naw. The best remedy for learned helplessness is having a job.

  54. urthshu says:

    >>Well, I’m more for the “call it like it is” model

    And that is perfectly fine. Its when you start to pathologize what is natural – yes, poverty is the natural state of man, as Hobbes would be quick to inform you – that you start on the path of error.

    I’ve done the social work bit. I’ve done what dicentra wants to be done. It doesn’t work. It results in worse behaviors. Stop infantilizing them, otherwise the problem lies with you.

  55. Carin says:

    Too much nazi zombies going on in my house. We’re now debating how we’d protect our house should those nazi zombies show up. We have WAY too many windows. We’d be dead.

  56. urthshu says:

    >>I’m sure they walk out the door every day bemoaning the fact that that their ‘hood is so gross, oblivious to the fact that it’s their own fault.

    YES

  57. Carin says:

    I don’t know what dicentra want to be done, I think she was just pointing out that certain things accompany the “poor”/welfare mentality.

  58. We’re now debating how we’d protect our house should those nazi zombies show up. We have WAY too many windows. We’d be dead.

    Had a similar conversation with RTO a while back. and he was all, “we need to angle the guest bathroom door, so I could cover the front door” um. no.

  59. They could flip for it.

    no, my kittehs would eat his pansy ass for breakfast.

  60. Carin says:

    I think we’d have to take down the deck … then we could concentrate on fortifying the ground level doors and windows.

    Honestly, I’ve told all the children that I, like Michele (from the now dead small victory), ,would just give up should we be overtaken by zombies. Even watching them play that nazi zombie game, I realize there is just not stopping them … there will always be more. Why fight?

  61. router says:

    the “poor” are prevented by gov’t from owning anything

  62. phreshone says:

    Carin… at least get them “Fallout 3” it will be good preparation for the Age of Barry…

  63. P.J. says:

    Not sure if you guys saw / heard this yet. Not sure if it is real or where is came from, but I thought it was good

    A letter from John Wall:

    Dear American liberals, leftists, social progressives,
    socialists, Marxists, Communists, Obama supporters, etc.

    We have stuck together since the late 1950’s, but the
    whole of this latest election process has made me realize
    that I want a divorce. I know we tolerated each other for
    many years for the sake of future generations, but sadly,
    this relationship has run its course. Our two ideological
    sides of America cannot and will not ever agree on what is
    right, so let’s just end it on friendly terms. We can
    smile, slate it up to irreconcilable differences, and go on
    our own ways.

    Here is a model dissolution agreement:
    Our two groups can equitably divide up the country by
    landmass each taking a portion. That will be the difficult
    part, but I am sure our two sides can come to a friendly
    agreement.

    After that, it should be relatively easy! Our respective
    representatives can effortlessly divide other assets since
    both sides have such distinct and disparate tastes. We
    don’t like redistributive taxes so you can keep them.
    You are welcome to the liberal judges and the ACLU.

    Since you hate guns and war, we’ll take our firearms,
    the cops, the NRA and the military. You can keep Oprah,
    Michael Moore, and Rosie O’Donnell (you are however,
    responsible for finding a bio-diesel vehicle big enough to
    move them).

    We’ll keep the capitalism, greedy corporations,
    pharmaceutical companies, Wal-Mart, and Wall Street. You an
    have your beloved homeless, homeboys, hippies, and illegal
    aliens. We’ll keep the hot Alaskan hockey moms, greedy
    CEO’s, and rednecks. We’ll keep the Bibles and give
    you NBC and Hollywood.

    You can make nice with Iran, Palestine, and France, and
    we’ll retain the right to invade and hammer places that
    threaten us. You can have the peaceniks and war protesters.
    When our allies or way of life are under assault, we’ll
    provide them job security.

    We’ll keep our Judeo-Christian Values. You are welcome
    to Islam, Scientology, Humanism, and Shirley McClain. You
    can have the U.N. But we will no longer be paying the bill.
    We’ll keep the SUV’s, pickup trucks, and oversized
    luxury cars. You can take every mini-station wagon you can
    find.

    You can give everyone healthcare, if you can find any practicing doctors (that is practicing, Howard Dean) who will follow to your turf (sic). We’ll continue to believe healthcare is a luxury and not a right.

    We’ll keep The Battle Hymn of the Republic and The
    National Anthem. I’m sure you’ll be happy to
    substitute Imagine, I’d Like to Teach the World to Sing,
    Kum Ba Ya or We Are the World.

    We’ll practice trickle down economics and you can give
    trickle up poverty its best shot.

    Since it often so offends you, we’ll keep our History,
    our Name, and our Flag.

    Sincerely,

    John J. Wall

    Law Student and an American

    P.S. Please take Barbra Streisand, too.

    (hope the html works!!)

  64. Rusty says:

    “How do you manipulate the free enterprise system?”

    The system ,if you want to call it that, is made to be manipulated.In the sense that it is flexible and open ended. The only ‘end game’ is that all participants leave the table with what they want.

    If you have an opportunity go to an auction where everything is going absolute,without reserve, and watch how people behave.(My favorite are industrial machinery auctions). Watch what the bidders do, and what the auctioneer does. Flea markets are much the same thing. They are examples of freemarkets at work.

  65. Makewi says:

    According to the zombie survival guide, you should fortify the upstairs and then knock down the stairs leading up there.

  66. router says:

    How do you manipulate the free enterprise system?

    have better information

  67. router says:

    How do you manipulate the free enterprise system?

    axs obama the one knows

  68. Mr. Pink says:

    If it was zombie survival time I would start living like it was Waterworld.

  69. Makewi says:

    Make sure the water’s deep, because while zombies can’t swim, they don’t need to breathe either.

  70. serr8d says:

    @20 SBP, an intriguing link you posted there.

    Second, UNDERSTAND that there are no Supermonkeys. Just monkeys.

    (Context, man, take it in context!

  71. Spies, Brigands, and Pirates says:

    They often want a student manual done in PowerPoint.

    I just threw up in my mouth.

    Sorry if that’s TMI.

  72. Sdferr says:

    Here, thanks to Bird Dog at Maggie’s Farm, who got it from Vanderleun at American Digest, who got it From Carpe Diem and Mark Perry, a table of cost comparisons between the years 1950 and 2009, in hours worked: The Miracle of the Market. It’s a beautiful thing. Check it out.

  73. Spies, Brigands, and Pirates says:

    It’s taking care of the fit that rankles.

    Okay, here’s a question:

    In former times, those who were… less than academically gifted… could earn a decent wage working in factories, and before that, as farmers.

    Those jobs are gone. They’re not coming back, either. Automation is going to make unskilled labor untenable. The Chinese are doing it cheaply right now, but that’s not going to last (didn’t last in the US, didn’t last in Japan, didn’t last in Korea, and isn’t lasting in Mexico).

    So.

    If living on the dole is soul-damaging (and I agree that it is), what should all those people do?

    The options that come to mind (personal servants, sex workers…) are less than appetizing.

  74. Spies, Brigands, and Pirates says:

    BTW, bringing this full circle, Mr. Friedman favored a negative income tax (or did at one time).

    The idea is that every dollar a poor person earns should make him measurably better off.

    That is, the amount of aid should decrease in a continuous fashion rather than being an all-or-nothing proposition (make $X, get Medicaid for your kids and a welfare check. Make $X+1, get nothing). We can bruit the morality of it about, but it’s not hard to see why many people avoid taking low-paying jobs.

  75. Spies, Brigands, and Pirates says:

    The options that come to mind (personal servants, sex workers…)

    I didn’t say it before, but simply allowing them to starve to death could also be mentioned here.

    I personally couldn’t do it, and I don’t think many of us could.

  76. Sdferr says:

    …what should all those people do?

    Well SBP, football (soccer) comes to mind. And then there’s cricket. That’s a good game for killing time I’m told, at least GH Hardy thought so. And then of course, Go. Machines won’t be playing that anytime soon (and beating people) I think.

  77. Phil says:

    God I miss Milton already. Unlike Baracky, what a truly accomplished and great man. He is missed.

    Another big difference between the Right and the Left is their respective views on the extraction of money. To the Right, you’re selfish if you think you have the right to the fruits of someone ELSE’s labor. To the Left, you’re selfish if you’d like to decide for yourself how you want to spend the fruits of your OWN labor.

    It really shows how fucked up collectivism/liberal/Leftism is that they essentially advocate policies (such as the one above) that amount to human slavery when you really drill down to it.

    You either own your own labor or you do not. The Right thinks you do. The Left doesn’t.

  78. Sdferr says:

    Which, Phil, is another good reason it ought to be called the Anti-Labor movement, rather than the friend of Labor.

  79. geoffb says:

    I don’t believe that any solution can be planned out. And the automation is not just going to effect the low end manual jobs, that’s just the canary in the coal mine.

    What did we make plans to do with all those telephone switchboard operators put out of work by switching networks where the user dialed the whole number himself. I’m old enough to remember having to go through an operator to make that rare long distance call.

    Free markets will find work for those who wish to do work. Centrally planned markets will also, but the work, and pay, and entire economy will suck for the 99% who aren’t the nomenklatura.

    Humans and the human mind are the most valuable resource on Earth. Too many are wasted being born into and living in destructive, inhuman, centrally planned madness. Freedom is the solution to that and so many other problems in our world today.

  80. Spies, Brigands, and Pirates says:

    What did we make plans to do with all those telephone switchboard operators put out of work by switching networks where the user dialed the whole number himself.

    Well, the classic solution is that those people are freed up to take new jobs.

    I forget which author phrased it as all of us being, to a first approximation, unemployed serfs and foot soldiers.

    The problem is that that unskilled jobs are vanishing, and new unskilled jobs aren’t being created. We have about all the convenience store clerks and fast food restaurant workers we can use.

  81. Darleen says:

    Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates on 3/5 @ 8:50 pm #

    There is a certain amount of physical labor and/or entry level jobs that will never go away. Gardening, housekeeping, greeters, stock clerks, janitors …

    My late sister-in-law was what we might call developmentally disabled. Sweetest gal you’d ever meet and also fiercely stubborn in being independent. She held entry level jobs… at a pizza place, a greeter at a Home Depot… a work ethic a mile wide and she was never unemployed save for the times she couldn’t work due to severe medical issues.

    Of course, in a collectivist utopia, she would never have been suffered to live.

  82. Spies, Brigands, and Pirates says:

    There is a certain amount of physical labor and/or entry level jobs that will never go away.

    Sure, a certain amount. That’s the point.

    The number being thrown out of work by automation is only going to increase.

    Worst case, we get a full-blown Glenn Reynolds nanotechnology wet dream, such that no one has to work ever again.

    What happens then?

  83. Sdferr says:

    Asked and answered, SBP.

  84. Spies, Brigands, and Pirates says:

    I don’t think playing games will do the trick, Sdferr.

    Not at anything less than a professional level, anyway.

    People (well, normal people) have a need to feel that they are useful members of society. Even if their role is a menial one, they get a (justified) feeling of pride from performing their role.

  85. geoffb says:

    SBP, I do think we look at the term “unskilled” in different ways. I am very “unskilled” compared to many, probably most who write here. It doesn’t mean I’m stupid. Every choice you make in life closes off other roads. Too many wrong ones early on, even the ones that didn’t look wrong at the time, and your life goes down a certain path.

    Freedom, true freedom and open transparent access to knowledge, can help unlock the potential in every human. All have the spark to do something that no other can do as well.

    I’m just a cockeyed optimist when it comes to the results of mixing humans with a free system. I think that planning just gets in the way and is counter productive. The “unknown unknowns” dominate over the plans. Even simulations are limited by what can be imagined. The world is much more than what we believe it to be.

    We are going to have to agree to disagree I think.

  86. Spies, Brigands, and Pirates says:

    It doesn’t mean I’m stupid.

    Right, far from it.

    My first post used the phrase “academically ungifted”, meaning that those people aren’t ever going to become engineers, or doctors, or CPAs.

    They may be fine people. Loving. Friendly. Funny. Good parents. Great guys to have a beer with. But they aren’t going to graduate from MIT, not matter how much their “spark” is nurtured.

    Now, I certainly believe in encouraging people to do their best, but we need to recognize that there are some limitations. I couldn’t play guitar like Jimi Hendrix if I practiced 16 hours a day. I’ll never beat Lance Armstrong in a bike race.

    It’s absurd to pretend otherwise.

  87. Sdferr says:

    Aren’t you going to have to pin down your “automation” assumptions a little better though, SBP? I mean, really, your average ditch digger is vastly superior, far more skilled than any machine when it comes to adjusting his behavior to the broad swath of tasks and exigencies in life and living.

  88. Phil says:

    People (well, normal people) have a need to feel that they are useful members of society. Even if their role is a menial one, they get a (justified) feeling of pride from performing their role.

    This is precisely why charities like Misericordia are some of my favorites. Even those with disabilities have a right to contribute to society and to take pride in the work they perform, no matter what. Even if the jobs are so-called “menial” jobs (bagging groceries, scooping ice creams), there is nothing like seeing the joy on the faces of these people because they know they are CONTRIBUTING to society and are proud of themselves for doing so.

    They own their own labor and they’re proud of it. The Right is proud of them. The Left would abort them.

  89. Spies, Brigands, and Pirates says:

    I mean, really, your average ditch digger is vastly superior, far more skilled than any machine when it comes to adjusting his behavior to the broad swath of tasks and exigencies in life and living.

    Sure. The AI problem is still unsolved, and appears likely to remain so for some time to come (quite possibly until we get machines capable of running a neuron-level simulations of every cell in a human brain, and probably for some time after that).

    The question is whether anyone will pay him for those things.

    Ditch-digger is actually a great example of what I’m talking about.

    Getting into that trade requires a few hundred thousand in capital nowadays.

  90. Spies, Brigands, and Pirates says:

    there is nothing like seeing the joy on the faces of these people because they know they are CONTRIBUTING to society and are proud of themselves for doing so.

    Oh, absolutely. I don’t want anyone to mistake my meaning here. I want everyone to continue to have something worthwhile to do.

    The question is, what?

  91. geoffb says:

    I’m not saying that anyone can be or do anything. I’m saying that everyone has something unique to contribute and only a free system will allow each to find what that could be. IQ isn’t the be all, end all, measurement of what humans can do. Planning can only foresee the foreseeable. Life is much more complex than any plan.

    It is the planned economy than will warehouse all those less skilled being and feed them the soma to keep them happy.

    And right now my somewhat unskilled and underpaid job keeping a couple million dollars worth of mechanical/electrical/electronic equipment going 18/7/365 is over for this evening so I must logout from here.

    The future will happen no matter what we do. I see it as great as long as the socialist can be defeated, crushed actually. And in that endeavor I know we are on the same side.

  92. Sdferr says:

    Hey now, hang on. I was employing the Mole (a real guy, that was his nickname) no more than 15 yrs ago, and truth to tell, were he still alive and were I doing now what I was back then, I’d be employing him still. Somebody, I guarantee you, is employing someone like the Mole today, doing very much what the Mole was doing back then, which it happens, is a job no machine can do. I’d grant immediately however, that jobs like that one aren’t ever going to be plentiful enough to employ the vast numbers of people you’re talking about SBP. Still, there will be lots of jobs machines won’t be doing.

  93. Darleen says:

    SBP

    In a free market new jobs, like unintended consequences, spring up all the time with varying amounts of skill levels.

  94. geoffb says:

    Back home and fed.

    A couple of things. Every time you build a machine to do a job, someone has to design it(skilled), build it(skilled to semi-skilled), run it(semi-skilled to unskilled), repair it(semi-skilled to skilled). I’m in the repair it part.

    Every year I take unskilled guys, usually guys, and in a couple of weeks turn them into someone who can minimally assist me. At that point they have a skill, one that they could use everywhere in the world to get a job doing this same work and have a leg up due to someone not having to babysit them through that two weeks. At the end of a year they are even better.

    I’ve trained people like this for almost 40 years, some are slower, some are faster, all it takes is the willingness to work and put in the effort to learn. Unskilled is simply someone who hasn’t been trained to do something useful where the training takes more than a day.

    60 years ago the job I do took 60 guys to do and was not done as well. 30 years ago it took 30. Starting around 1975 that went to 2. More skilled those two.

    My type of business is the recreation/entertainment business. It can expand as leisure expands. Everyone has an almost unlimited appetite to be entertained. Much of it is fairly unskilled labor and very much in need of humans in the loop because we have to deal with other humans. Humans whose wants and needs are all different. Humans who are drunk, or sober, smart, or not so smart. They are all customers and all have to be satisfied if business is to continue.

    The desires of the human race will always expand to make use of all available resources including the human ones. If joblessness isn’t a temporary condition it is due to either governmental interference, the lack of enough ambition to go out and work or both combined in the perfect storm for the socialist types.

    I have no fear for the future employment of anyone willing to work.

  95. Slartibartfast says:

    Make sure the water’s deep, because while zombies can’t swim, they don’t need to breathe either.

    So, that slows them down a bit. Better would be loading up the moat with piranha and alligators.

    But that may just get you a whole lot of zombie piranha and alligators. Not sure that’s a bad thing, but it does make for some uneasy-making.

  96. Gar says:

    The reason perhaps that Obama had the Churchill bust removed from the White House:

    “The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.” – Winston Churchill

  97. doubled says:

    “How do you manipulate the free enterprise system?”

    The real manipulation has to come with government assistance. Only they are big enough to rig the system. This always results in much more poverty for the many and riches for the few.

    In Chicago ‘da mayor Daley had an affirmative action program to stear gov contracts to minorities. What happened? The mayor’s white cronies would hire a token black to their company and get the contract even though ‘needed’ legislation was written to ‘fix’ the problem.

  98. doubled says:

    The reason perhaps that Obama had the Churchill bust removed from the White House:

    “The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.” – Winston Churchill

    An excellent guess , I won’t argue , but instead supplement it with (to paraphrase): If you are not a liberal by 20 years of age, you have no heart; if you are not a conservative by 40, you have no brains.

  99. Walt Long says:

    Through all these threads, I see the same, tired misconception that compassion is somehow the same as equality

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