As the nation arrives, for the first time since 1825, at the end of consecutive eight-year presidencies, a summing up of the second of them must begin with this fact: Not since Abraham Lincoln’s has an administration been so defined by a single subject as George W. Bush’s has been by the Iraq War, which the country now thinks was improvidently begun and incompetently conducted. Historical judgments are, however, subject to history’s contingencies, and if, a decade hence, Iraq has a nonsectarian regime controlled by a multiparty, recognizably democratic process, and if this exerts an improving tug on the region, Americans might then consider the war at least partially redeemed.
If history’s judgment is that the war was positively related to the fact that there was no attack on America after 9/11, then history’s judgment of the commander in chief will be much less severe than today’s unhinged critics of him can imagine. Furthermore, some, and perhaps many, Americans probably are alive today because persons conspiring to commit mass murder were thwarted by the president’s ferocious focus after 9/11.
He believes that America has “a calling from beyond the stars to stand for freedom.” But “standing for” does not entail “exporting.” To stroll in Arlington cemetery among headstones recording deaths during the appallingly named “Operation Iraqi Freedom” is infuriating: No American should have died for freedom in Iraq, and none did. All who sacrificed there did so for the security of America’s freedom. The “nation building” there has been a learning experience, teaching Americans to recoil from suggested repetitions.
George, those who went into harm’s way, by and large, understood what Bush expected of them and of their sacrifices. And not all of those who have sacrificed, including their families, are buried in that cemetery.
As Bill Frist recently remarked, the troops at President Bush’s command have brought freedom to a great many people. They may not be American people, but they are people nonetheless. Mr. Will may not think that the foreign entanglements have been worthwhile, but that does not in any way detract from the intentions of the American warriors or their Commander-in-Chief or their supporters. We believe, as sad as that might be, that the victory in Iraq that was purchased with so many human lives has been worthwhile, not only from the perspective of American security, but also of Iraqi freedom.
If we lived in a less selfish world–a world less motivated by the impoverished realpolitik of George Wills–then perhaps Somalis and Sudanese would know something of this freedom. You dishonor their sacrifice by your selfishness.
For some reason, I cringe every time that someone says, “Our soldiers sacrificed.” I wish that we could get rid of that terminology altogether, because the word is absolutely incorrect in my opinion, even though I know exactly what is meant. Call me a “Randian” or something, but sacrifice is not what our soldiers do. Sorry, but that has been driving me nuts for a few days, and I posted on that just this morning.
Anyhoo, George Will should just write about baseball.
The utilitarian argument for the Iraq war is the weakest one by far.
All the money spent on it could have gone to much better causes.
If you’re really interested in bettering the lives of the world’s poor, that is.
The world’s poor will never not be poor until they’re free, parsnip.
Just putting my little marketing hat on I’ll tell you this grumpy anachronistic codger is unhelpful even when he’s right as rain. Also he defines appallingly a lot down I think.
If you’re really interested in bettering the lives of the world’s poor, that is.
Christ you are a sanctimonious little idiot, it is truly a shame you are too stupid to be embarassed.
In a world of backpack nukes, and 6th century religious fanaticism, isolationism is stupidity. Even Democrats know that when one of their own is in the White House. The problem is when the opposition is there, they are blinded by loyalty to the thing they love before country, which is their party, and the thing they would die for before justice, which is power.
The U.S. should exhort and sacrifice itself on behalf of the world.
And then judge itself based on its intentions rather than its results.
Somewhere astute leftists are laughing at the wrongheadedness of this ‘Conservative’ approach, amused that they’ve seen a Republican President bankrupt the entire limited-government movement at home to adopt the Democrats’ traditional foreign policy. Cause presumably, we’re now believe in the efficacy of massive social engineering projects at home, but not domestically.
Less one-worlder armed social work, more kicking ass for discrete tangible goals.
“Cause presumably, we’re now believe in the efficacy of massive social engineering projects at home”
at home = abroad
—
American patriotism is well-justified.
Wanting America ‘to win’ is well-justified.
Holding the ‘peace at any price’ camp in contempt is well-justified.
But specific wars, and their aims, must be picked wisely, with a full appreciation of the limits of what American arms can achieve in foreign societies. Not only is it a waste of American strength, but it will, and is, biting us in the ass domestically.
Do bow ties cut off the circulation to the brain?
I dunno. I’d still bet Hillary and Baracky’s first foreign policy priority will be to underscore and bolster the extent to which bitch-assed so-called allies like fucking France are decidedly not less secure for having thrown us under the bus. Allies must be picked every bit as carefully as wars and aims I think or you end up with half-assed dictator-loving effete UN-fellating ones.
“If you’re really interested in bettering the lives of the world’s poor, that is.”
Let them eat parsnips.
“I think or you end up with half-assed dictator-loving effete UN-fellating ones.”
The lapdog is not amused.
Was it really worth the lives of 600,000 white soldiers, as well as untold horrific civilian suffering, and a Militiary Occupation of the South for 8 years, to free the American Negro?
The war on terror and most signifigantly the Iraq Campaign is an Investment that will provide Freedom and Prosperity to the oppressed in the world, in greater measure than all of the UNs corrupt Enterprises.
Good point, Salt Lick and it is worth noting that the Democratic Party was founded to oppose freeing the Slaves. Happened a long time ago, but forgotten by Revisionists.
No American should have died for freedom in Iraq, and none did. All who sacrificed there did so for the security of America’s freedom./i
What the hell does that even mean?
So, I take it the trolls vigorously would opposes any action in, say, Rwanda or Sudan. How about the Congo? Showering BarackBucks from helicopters would fix their problems, I suppose.
I mean, surely spending money there would solve all their problem, no?
in greater measure than all of the UNs corrupt Enterprises
Cost of the Iraq war = about $200,000,000,000 a year.
Annual budget of the U.N. = about $2,000,000,000 a year.
That’s right, the Iraq war has a budget 100 times that of the U.N.
The U.N. saves far more lives each year that the Iraq war does on 1/100 the budget.
In fact, even the craziest war profiteers admit we’ve killed over 100,000 Iraqis so far.
Those ingrates have the nerve to ask us to leave, too!
and we haven’t raped nearly as many women and childrens…
By “we’ve” parsnip assumes that we’re the ones that were blowing up street markets.
No, alphie, those were your prizefighters, your minutemen, your true Iraqi patriots. Don’t abandon them in their darkest hour.
George Will: “[…]at least partially[…].
Can Will equivocate any more than he does in this blurb? I mean, if he thinks the Iraq effort will be redeemed in the future, why doesn’t he just say it.
You can’t be “at least partially” pregnant, can you? Seems as though Will is leaving open the door to criticize Iraq’s newfound democracy, at least partially, in the future, despite continued stability and despite a decade or more of practiced democracy. He’s hedging his paper’s bets.
Don’t forget, Iran utilized Saddam’s regime as a proxy attacker of American interests in the region, just as they employ Hezbollah in Lebanon. This is a fact.
With this in mind, if one were to discount all criticisms of Bush’s nation=building efforts that spewed from the pages of his devoted political and America’s military opponents (ie. foreign detractors, ME funders, Left-coast Liberals) – which is something a media employee like Will’d never do – you’d be left with the congressional, Senatorial and executive’s records to form your editorials around.
Compared to this more reliable record, the “criticisms” that Will, at least partially countenances as fact will appear as just so many schemers’ slanders and lies. Once this fact receives the attention it deserves, America’s remaining patriots will automatically want to discover why so many at least partially “liberal” journo’s stooped to opposing Clinton/Gore’s own regime-change policy as carried out by Bush, and to find out which financiers cajoled these hallowed publishers to republish Iran’s propaganda so enthusiastically for the Mullahs.
There’s a cloud of gnats hovering around the real governing record about Iraq for a reason, and Will’s piece just adds to the obfuscating buzz. Focus on the real legislative record of the war, and the “Lying Liars” who, at least partially, were willing to play fast and loose with our soldiers’ lives will find themselves facing the criticism: something the gnats have been released to prevent from happening.
Sad fact is, George Will can’t write that story. He is constrained by employment from researching like a free-man. The real story of the war will need to be told by independent journalists. Soft-lipped, paid ass-kissers in blue cities need not apply.
And the UN has just done a bang-up job in Rwanda, Sudan, Congo, Senegal, Ivory Coast, Indonesia, etc.
Hell, Iraq and those wonderful sanctions your side detested so much.
I thought the Iraqis just asked us and we agreed to stay for like three more years.
I’m sure the North Koreans appreciate all that the UN has done for them over the past 50 years.
Also, Yemen, the narco-socialists of Central America, etc.
Wow, I can think of all the freedom and prosperity that the UN has brought forth.
Well, there is their management of Bosnia, so……………oh right.
“Cost of the Iraq war = about $200,000,000,000 a year.”
Yesterday, Minority Leader John Boehner sent out an email on the House Democrats’ ridiculous $825 billion “stimulus” bill. It is worth reproducing in its entirety:
link
By “we’ve†parsnip assumes that we’re the ones that were blowing up street markets.
You are forgetting which side tuberhead is on.
Haha, Techie,
It’s debateable whether Afghanistan and Iraq are going and better than Randa, Sudan, etc.
But we know the U.N. did their missions far, far cheaper than the U.S. military.
And it turns out the Republicans really were bankrupting America with their wacky nation building attempts.
Oh well, time for a Democrat to balance the budget…once again.
It’s debatable whether you’re smarter than a retarded marmoset. But you’re not, all debate aside.
It’s debateable whether Afghanistan and Iraq are going and better than Randa, Sudan, etc.
But we know the U.N. did their missions far, far cheaper than the U.S. military.
And, the UN threw in the raping for FREE!
Regardless … and I’m honestly curious, are you high?
And how is Obama going to balance shit with a $1.2 trillion deficit?
And frankly, you’re just obtuse if you think “it’s debatable if Iraq is better than Randa(sic)”. Really, Rwanda has had two successful democratic elections? Rwanda has a restarted economy? Also, you recall that even by the wildest highest claims of disaster on your side, they were dwarfed by the verifiable bodycount in Central Africa. The fact that you dismiss them out of hand to merely make a retarded, easily disproved point speaks volumes of where your true loyalties and desires lie.
Again, what UN missions? Name the stunning successes. Especially ones that didn’t rely primarily on American firepower/manpower? How many autocratic/despotic regimes has the UN overturned? How many nations rebuilt into respectable members of the World Community?
That fucking war in Randa was a bitch, I tell ya.
It’s debateable whether Afghanistan and Iraq are going and better than Randa, Sudan, etc.
I’ll bet it would be a pretty quick debate if you asked the average Sudanese. Who is Randa, one of those refugee DC whores?
See, by ANY metric, it’s NOT debatable, you fuckwit. You lose.
Parsnip’s on a roll! “Annual budget of the U.N. = about $2,000,000,000 a year.
That’s right, the Iraq war has a budget 100 times that of the U.N.
The U.N. saves far more lives each year that the Iraq war does on 1/100 the budget.”
LOL! Man, you are killing! You should be on stage in your own one-man show! “Parsnip’s Comedy Stylings, or The single Stooge Show!” Will you hit yourself in your own face with pies, too! And I can’t wait to see you poke yourself in your own eyes! Man, parsnip, you get funnier every day!
Oh, I think we were to harsh. He’s run away or something.
But, honestly – ask just about anyone who they would prefer to come to their aid – the US Military or a UN force.
Go home. Step back. Bask in the glory of your FranklinMint Obama! plate. Go count your Obama Topps trading cards. Go read the two books on Michelle Obama. Go drink Victory Cola (formerly PepsiCo.). Go rename your street “Obama Avenue”. Go take a myspace picture of you giving the “O” sign.
Congratulations, you backed the winning pony.
That and a buck will buy you coffee at a Exxon station.
There’s a crisis in Randa?
I think Randa is that place where the Christians totally repress the Muslims. Behead ’em for percieved slights. Stuff like that.
No Randa is where Mohammed’s dog(filthy unclean leftists) square off against the followers of Moe.
Oh, I just looked it up. Apparently, the battle is an ideological bloodbath between Mormon and Baptists.
I htought Randa was a pron star.
“I htought Randa was a pron star.”
Yea like Randa and some guy named Hussein.
I think Hussein used a parsnip with Randa.
i dunno.
I supported Iraqi Freedom until it was clear that Bush and Rumsfeld had mismanaged the thing root and branch into the ground, especially with Bremer in charge. All along, the really morally unimpeachable war, Afghanistan, sat on the back burner until we screwed the pooch.
all the while, Iran put together nukes in broad daylight and we….considered the matter.
It wasn’t worth it.
Bush’s big mistake appears to have been not taking war seriously, in that he both communicated poorly our reasons for fighting, and ultimately, chose not to expand our military to meet these needs. if we are going to be the world’s policeman, then it would be smarter to hire and train more cops.
Are you honestly going to tell me mcgruder that is someone had said going in we were going to have a functioning government in Iraq in five years and it would cost us about 4000 troops you would have considered that a disaster?
cost us about 4000 troops
And a trillion dollars, B Moe.
Let’s not forget that.
What is the world like today with Saddam Hussein in it? (Oh, that’s right, we can’t say because he is dead.)
How much money has Saddam got in his treasury now that he’s been able to capitalize on $140/barrel oil? (Oh, hang on, we don’t know because he is dead.)
Is Saddam worried about his mortal enemies in Iran getting nuclear weapons? What is he likely to do about that? Take out Iran’s program? Or re-build his own? (Oh. wait a minute. He’s dead.)
Does Saddam plot revenge on his Kuwaiti neighbors? Saudis? Jordanians? (Oh yeah, dead.)
Will Saddam be interested in giving Hamas a hand up in its fight with the Zionists? Attempt to rival Iranian generosity toward Hamas by one-upping their weapons stockpiles in quantity and quality? (Oh noes, he’s dead.)
And a trillion dollars, B Moe.
The troops mean more to me, you greedy little prick.
I like it when you show your true colors, though.
Well, B Moe, the Pentagon has decided that each dead U.S. soldier is worth exactly $100,000.
http://www.military.com/benefits/survivor-benefits/death-gratuity
So $100,000 x 4000 = $400,000,000.
“And a trillion dollars.”
Actually, its $685 billion. O yea, these bailouts so far have cost more than all the foreign wars we’ve ever fought to date, including Iraq, in adjusted real dollars.
How much money is your family worth to you, tuberhead?
Such a sad pathetic little fool.
Bush’s bailout cost more than his pointless wars, Darth?
Talk about an embarrassment of riches.
B Moe, I’d back raising the death gratuity up to $1 million if it weren’t for the moral hazard.
“So $100,000 x 4000 = $400,000,000.”
You’d make Scrooge proud.
How much would you take for one of your children, tuber? Or a grandchild? Come on, you want to put prices on shit, how much for one of your grandkids?
The white veggie dictating the worth of life. How LIBERAL.
“Bush’s bailout cost more than his pointless wars, Darth?”
Let me employ a low syllabic count response so our encephalopathic fellow traveler might begin to grasp the rudiments of the conservative diamond chakra:
More. Than. All. Foreign. Wars. Combined. Ever. Mexican-American, Spanish-American, WWI, WWII, etc.
Heh, now they’re Obama’s wars.
He has no soul, he is jealous of the Muzzies because they can sell their children to finance their retirement. He has to fucking grovel at the governments feet.
All he knows is buying votes and breeding Democrats to provide for him.
You’d make Scrooge proud.
Don’t forget Saddam agreed to step down and leave Iraq for $1 billion cash money, dog.
Where the fuck do you come up with this shit? Weekly World News?
“Don’t forget Saddam agreed to step down and leave Iraq for $1 billion cash money, dog.”
Yea Hussein’s relative also agreed with a “cease fire” in ’92 you rotten veggie.
well, B Moe, its like this: Im all for a muscular response to terrorism militarily, but I suspect that we could have done more boxing in the likes of Iran in a serious manner than waging war against Iraq. Also, winning in Afghanistan. Its 7.5 years on in that front and we are nowhere close to where we need to be.
So Im not sure it was worth it. If you are telling me that the government there can fully and safely sustain its people, not unlike a Denmark with oil, then i can meet you halfway. But I have little confidence that anything remotely like this emerges.
There is also the matter of the casualties. It simply did not have to be this way. the conduct of the war from late 2004 thru early 2007 was unforgiveable.
this is not a satisfying answer for many here, but i hold it to be true.
See, mcgruder, that’s a valid, non-shrieking opinion. I respect that but I also respectfully disagree.
I guess time will tell, I reckon.
BTW, alphie, when’s that coup coming? Isn’t ChimpyMcBushitler supposed to be canceling elections, declaring martial law, jailing his political opponents, and all that jazz?
I was promised a coup!!! Where’s my reichwing theocracy?
“If you are telling me that the government there can fully and safely sustain its people, not unlike a Denmark with oil”
Ain’t no perfection in this world dude. Even D’mark has some hostile Muslims.
Go Steelers!!
mcgruder, what would the casualty count have been if we had not invaded Iraq, and had tried to take on that level of AQ resistance, supported in part by Saddam, in a land locked hell hole like Afghanistan?
Cause, wasn’t Bush THE WORST PRESIDENT EVAR!!!? Didn’t he SHRED THE CONSTITUTION? Trample your Freedoms!?
So, maybe he wasn’t the all-malevolent Bond villain the Left has been shrieking on about for all these years?
Go Steelers!!
Hell yeah!
Also, Go Cards, and Go Steelers.
I’ll take the long view I think. Free people do surprising stuff over time, and the trendlines are pretty darn encouraging. What else is I think it’s an a lot worthy thing for my little country to be able to sit back and say hey, you know what? There’s the odd patch of freedom about this little world what we put there. We’re kinda proud of that. It’s sorta who we are.
There are worse ways to pass the time on this little planet I think.
So are the al Qaeda bosses al-Zawahiri and Bin Laden getting along with their new hosts in Iraq ok? Household furnishings up to snuff? Sturdy highspeed internet lines in their homes in Mosul or Tikrit or wherever the hell they are in Iraq? Is their new friend Saddam seeing to their needs, making sure their couriers are accommodated as they pass back and forth from Iraq to Syria or Kuwait or Iran or Turkey or Jordan or the Saud? (Oh, silly me, Saddam is dead.)
Box them in? With what, pray tell? Scotch tape? “Tough diplomacy”?
Where do you shitheads come up with this drivel?
We can always pay off the war with Baracky dollars. They’re very spendy.
“Box them in? With what, pray tell?”
Habitat for Humanity.
mcgruder is good people, keep the trollbats stowed.
“We can always pay off the war with Baracky dollars.”
Obama money
I’ll bet Osama is quite impressed with Saddam’s new biowarfare unit in Diyala too. So shiny new, chock-a-block with Phd biochemists and technicians, all the latest in high volume DNA processing equipment, yee-hwaq-ullu-ullu-ullu! Turning out tons of high grade weaponized anthrax like it was just so much wheatflour. Isn’t that special? (Aw geez, I forgot again, Saddam is dead.)
The Ravens D Line has resorted to Italian Soccer League dives. That is just pitiful.
ccoffer, mcgruder’s a good guy. Save that shit for the worthless like alphie. I’m guessing he meant diplomacy/sanctions (with teeth). I wasn’t for an escalation in Iraq, either. For reasons not unlike mcgruders. At the same time, I knew sanctions were worthless. Man, it was a tough decision. I, too, still worry about what happens once we take the compress/tourniquet off. Once we leave. Can these people self govern? I know enough about Islam, that it scares me. Can this nascent country live with democracy? Can it co-exist with Islam? I’m not a shrieking moonbat already decrying how we lost, especially in the face of facts that, at present, say otherwise. I guess I’m saying we just don’t know. It was a decision, and it was a contentious decision. Only time will tell if it was truly the correct one.
BTW, as a Browns fan (Acckkk!!!), I say….Go Cardinals! Actually, just kidding. I hope, whoever wins, wins it all.
Look, if Iraq is hopeless given their history and culture, we don’t have a snowballs chance in hell in Afghanistan. That place has been a barbaric frontier forever.
Right now the officials appear to be trying to arrange an all bird Super Bowl.
Fictional make believe worlds are teh FUN! The best are when you make up the stuff you want, include it in and leave out all the stuff you don’t want. It’s like word ice cream without the broccoli.
Not following Sdferr? Head cold. Can you explain?
The Cbs network sucks
The narco-socialists in Central America? Would like to explain that one, herr stupid fuck.
Yes. It does indeed suck.
Then the US Department of Welfare Impoverishment, Medical Collectivism, and Federalized Misandry has an annual budget five hundred times that of the UN, snot-drinker, and unlike deposing thugs, I do believe it’s an eternal program. And about to kiss the ring of its new master, one O!bamamama Big Bux.
But thanks for the opportunity, Mr. If You’re Really Interested in Bettering the Lives of the World’s Poor. Break our check-writin’ pencil, have we?
Like the FALN. Bad people, really. They took their eye off the ball. The UN likes to cheese all over them and some Democrats are eager to explore mutual interests and maybe put together some socials but my feeling is that narco-socialists are not the future. We’ll see. A nice recession should really put a dint in demand for cocaine and stuff. At least I think so. That’s what you’d figure anyway I think.
Phil Simms grates on my last nerve.
All normal Americans support programs like Social Security, JHo.
Don’t you remember Boosh getting turned into a gelding when he tried to change it?
Why can’t you guys get with the program?
Y’all seem to be turning into a fairly worthless opposition anyways
I hear the NFL is going to sew handles on the uniforms of the Steelers defense next year.
Yes, what did the UN do to stop the narco-socialists in Central America?
Or did it take the US to intervene in Nicaragua, Panama, and to an extent in Columbia?
(Of course, the Sandinistas are the good guys in your world, so it may be a moot point.)
All normal Americans support programs like Social Security, JHo.
Dissent is the highest form of Patriotism, tapeworm.
Bet they’ll really support it when it goes insolvent.
BTW, please explain the Randa and Sudan situation again? I only caught the part where you said something monumentally stupid and then decided to move on.
oh, heck Techie, how long do you want to make that list. still never got an explanation about how J Street (the $30,000 behemoth of lobbying) represents a “Majority of Jewish Americans”
or, Why does Hamas keep military installations among civilians when they know how inaccurate the Israelis can be?
Well, stupid fuck, had you said El Salvador at least you could’a referenced that they brokered the peace deal that ended the civil war. But you didn’t, eh stupid.
Instead of being a spewey little stupid fuck, why don’t you idly sit in quiet desperation and learn.
And by the way, Danny Ortega, head of the former Sandinistas, is the freely elected leader of Nicaragua today, a place where the Nicaraguan peoples won’t have to be poor now that they’re free. Just ask Dan for the details (sorry Dan, but I’m having a slight problem with your rhetorical parallel of freedom and wealth).
Oh sorry to hear about the headcold Obstreperous Inf. I stepped away to catch a bit of football and bake a potato. Is it FREEZING ass cold in Pittsburgh today or what? And Larry Fitzgerald is teh awesome, let me just say. Now what was that thing you didn’t get?
B Moe,
If you want to practice effective dissent, you’ll first have to convince America that you aren’t just a loose confederation of right wing wackos.
Right now, y’all look like a dumber version of the John Birch society.
“All normal Americans support programs like Social Security, ”
YOU ARE WRONG VEGGIE! US HOMOS DISAGREE!
Instead of being a spewey little stupid fuck, why don’t you idly sit in quiet desperation and learn.
Maybe you should try leading by example.
All normal Americans support programs like Social Security, snot-drinker, right up to the bitter end. Take pride in your ignorance because it’s about to be all you have left, courtesy of your masters.
Did the U.N. not broker the end of the civil war in El Salvador? Did the U.S. not forgive $2-billion in debt of El Salvador, in part out of shame for their role in the genocidal killings of peasants and the Mestizo pobrecitos.
Looks like Ronnie Reagan’s narco-contras isn’t something Mommy wants to wear right now.
Maybe later you’ll feel up to a full confessional, BMoe.
Right now it’s back to the game for me. See ya.
Archbishop Oscar Romero died for your redumblican sins, by the way.
parsnip:
Saddam promised to step down and leave Iraq for a billion? Are you stupid? Gee, Saddam stole a lot more than that from the UN and I did not see him making a run for it. In fact the Food for Oil scam was one of the biggest ripoffs in history and no one went to jail for it. Saddam also cleaned out most of the banks in Iraq before the war and I did not see him making a run for it. In fact, he was given the option of stepping down and stepping back and he preferred to stay and hide in a spider hole.
The war did not cost a trillion and it was a Democratic Congress that signed the checks for that bail out money. Just think if they had done what Bush asked in 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, and 2007 and reformed Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac things might not have gotten that bad. The good news is after the collapse of FM the Democrats who had opposed Bush’s reforms finally passed them in 2008.
I will say one thing, you are living proof that the MSM plan to dumb down the public is working.
I am an old broad and I can remember Clinton telling us that Saddam had to go, he was a dangerous man. I can remember the Democrats ignoring AlQaida for years when Clinton was president. Now I realize that there will be attempts to revise and rewrite history here, but if Clinton had dealt with any of this when he was in the White House, Bush would not have had to.
Did Kofi Annan not father his kid?
thor:
Yes, Ortega came back in style. A big car and fancy sunglasses, just like some movie star. Times have changed doncha know. He is not the Che wannabe he used to be.
But back in those days Ortega had the worse human rights record in the region and that is saying something.
I had a friend in the US department of snakes back in the day who served in Nic during the Sandinista’s time, right thorough going lefty my friend, and he came back from Managua pissed beyond my belief at the hypocrisy of the Sandino leadership, living in luxury he said they were and laughing at the peasants.
coming back to this… They did occasionally pay for sex. maybe we are too hard on them.
Your friend is a dumbass.
When 2% of the population owns over 60% of the land – “say you want to start a Revolution, weheeell you know…”
You’re familiar with the 13 families of El Salvador, aren’t’cha ya, Ray Dumblican.
It’s as if the U.N. thinks they can just go to the Philippines and impersonate the U.S. Navy or something. Whore fucking, fuckers!
I’m sense a lot of aggression on your part, thor.
Let it all out. Go down to DC, drink on Obama’s dime.
Drink up, me heartys. Yo ho.
“sensing”
Preview is not my friend.
Poor thorie, he should have gone south when he had the chance, before Ronald RAYGUN had the chance to ruin his tropical Sandinista paradise.
Taken that ruskie girlfriend of his. It was the Worker’s Dream, after all.
Really. Have a link? Because I don’t think there’s a lot of difference in the human rights of those dead humans piled in mass graves that the U.S. proxy boys killed versus any that the Sandista’s killed.
And what of our Redumblican President Bush adorning a death merchant like Alvaro Uribe Velvez with the Medal of Freedom? They’ll be hell to pay for that, don’t’cha know.
Leave the Ruskie gf out of this, please, Techie.
and they probably didn’t even have them clean their apartment. amateurs!
Sure thing.
Why don’t you come down to SoFlo and purchase some crack whores while dissolving yourself into a life of drug addiction. It worked for Rush Limbaugh!
Thanks. Everyone needs love, and it’s not as though any of us here are a bit uxorious, is it?
Oh shit, did something bad happen to her? Cause if I missed that, I actually am truly sorry. Moving across the country caused me to miss a lot of threads.
Hell, I want to go down to DC and drink on Obama’s dime. Methinks I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue.
No, I don’t think so, Techie. It’s just that she’s probably lots more important to thor than my cat was to me, or Limbaugh is to any of us.
Go RUSTBELT GO STEELERS!!!
Sorry thor, just too many Clancy novels, I guess.
Ignore parsnip… he’s talking out his ass again (just like that Geneva Conventions BS he was spilling last week.) As always, the number he cites isn’t the total Annual Budget of the UN. He’s just misread some number off some website without bothering to read what the cited figure actually covers.
So far, the sum total of effective UN peace efforts is… peace in El Salvador.
Did the U.N. not broker the end of the civil war in El Salvador?
If by broker you really mean observe, then I suppose so.
Now, to go drink and bask in the glory of the Cardinals actually playing in the Super Bowl (Kurt Warner fan, not AZ fan)
Whore fucking, fuckers!
Did someone bring up my favorite Christian Conservate Republican, Diaper Dave Vitter, and I missed it, maggie?
aw, still having reading problems, I see.
thor:
Do I have a link? Hell no, I read that years ago in Time magazine so it has to be right.
You know something? Latin America is like some holdover from old Europe complete with feudalism and a lack of property rights. All too often the peasants can choose between right wing paramilitary and Marxist narco thugs. Not much of a choice.
But when the region produces people like Hugo Chavez, what can you expect?
Other than that, suck it, PA.
I appreciate your concern Dan, but I think your pleas for civility are a bit off target.
Wait a minute. Liz Stephans and that Todd guy are in PA.
parsnip:
You like polls doncha? Well I saw your reference to Christians there and it might surprise you to find out that most Americans consider themselves Christians. Guess that makes you a minority.
I can tell from your post that you have a very limited view of the world. Where do you live?
I think it’s important to note that you don’t have to be a Left Wing or Right Wing American to abhor Uribe’s corruption and his limited success in using narco-paramilitaries to clean out every last human in parts of Colombia. It isn’t anti-American nor pro-Russian or anything of the like to be bright enough in the head to recognize and declare Uribe is nothing but another mass killer who will bring no lasting peace to that region nor Colombia.
Drool, sputter, squawk at me, but supporting death merchants like Uribe is how the Ortegas and Chavezes of the world get freely elected. We deaf-to-truth gringos gots no more currency with the locals, as they say. Oh the locals get it, all too well do they get it.
And as for Uribe..who says he is a death merchant? The number of deaths in that country is down and by the way thor, he is elected every bit as much as Ortega is.
One thing that bugs me. Calling it the “Iraq War”. How about that Sicily War or that Okinawa War. Iraq was a battle. A theater campaign in a much larger struggle that is a War. A war that is some respects has been waged for 1400 years.
Iraq was necessary. It is a foothold in the heartland of the enemy. Bases to reach out from. An intelligence bonanza. Terrorizing the terrorists.
Afghanistan is the Doolittle Raid, the North African campaign. It was the hit that needed to be done for morale until a major action could be started. Important but not vital. It’s most important aspect is it’s proximity to Pakistan which along with Iran are the next most obvious steps. Perhaps too obvious, time will tell.
Chavez thinks O! smells of sulfur.
It is a foothold in the heartland of the enemy.
Haha, you racist boy heroes can’t give it up, can you?
We’re pulliung out, like Diaper Dave Vitter caught in a whorehouse raid.
And, you know, he was running a call-guy operation out of his home, like Barney Frank, and prosecuting dirty whores, like Spitzer.
Dan:
That is because Chavez is just another left wing Marxist death merchant cocaine sniffing dictator El Presidente for life and Obama is the new President of the United States. And as we all know the US is responsible for all the problems in South and Central America. All of them.
So far from God! So close to the US of Amerikkka!
Read about Colombia a little. I like the two military brass that were charged with staging bombings and then killing the commie perpetrators of the terrorist attacks. The military brass dudes collected the reward money for catching and killing them commie perps, ya know.
Which is why those two military heroes staged the bombings and the killings of the perps. The whole thing, start to finish was staged to collect some Uribe reward money. All those dead peasants, for nothing. Shall I provide a link for those too lazy to Google?
Sure, and while you’re at it, provide a link to the monies that Saddam provided for the families of the brave suicide bombers.
Under the Obama-Biden plan, a residual force will remain in Iraq and in the region to conduct targeted counter-terrorism missions against al Qaeda in Iraq and to protect American diplomatic and civilian personnel.
Heartache, tuber.
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/iraq/
Shall I provide a link for those too lazy to Google?
It might be better to provide some links to the UN actually accomplishing something, since that is what the rest of us were talking about.
That link in #25 to the Power Line article on the “House Democrats’ ridiculous $825 billion “stimulus†bill.” has some unintentional irony. At the top is an ad to get “Free Government Money”. Ad by Google of course.
Seriously, I do want to thank thor for enlightening me on Central American politics, I had no idea things were that corrupt down there. It is almost like Chicago or something.
no we’re not.
or do you have “Stuff Obama Said, Vol. 3, newly revised”?
When someone like George Will gets all stuff and pooh-poohs something, I rather imagine we should be wildly celebrating that which he seeks to damp down. People were none too happy about how Korea turned out either – so that makes South Korea not worth it, a failure. Bah, go wind a bow tie with Tucker Carlson and play with a baseball George…
er, “stuffy” that is…
Franklin D. Roosevelt
“Somoza may be a son-of-a-bitch, but he’s our son-of-a-bitch.”
Aah, South America.
Remember when noted wingnut Michael Ledeen was selling Hezbollah anti-tank missiles so the proto-wingnuts in the Reahgan admin. could help the gang MS-13 get its start?
Good times.
oh hey! bunnies!!!
thor’s right that the Somoza government was a hopelessly corrupt oligarchy. Ortega, though, pursued a land policy that was roughly equivalent to that that’s had such great success in Rwanda. He has changed in important ways. For one thing, he’s embraced democracy, and in turn it has embraced him.
To whoever asked parsnip how he would value the lives of his children or grandchildren – the real question is how he’d value all those crusty washcloths under his bed.
thor:
Read about it? Why? It is the same story, decade after decade and century after century and somehow or other the people living there are always the victims, never the perpetrators…unless of course they are US allies {boo hiss}
I know that there are deaths in Columbia, but it is not as bad as it once was. I know that some military brass were actually arrested in fact. Is that good enough? Probably not, but then again I do not remember a time when I was not hearing about groups like the Shining Path and FARC on one side of the fight and paramilitary on the other in that part of the world. Uribe has to function in that world, not some alternative reality.
That is the thing about the left that drives me crazy. I was reading the other day that Bush is credited with saving the lives of 10 million Africans. If this was a Democrat or more precisely Obama we would be hearing about it all day every day. People would want to make him a saint, put him on Mount Rushmore, do away with term limits and make him President for life. But Bush? Not worth mentioning and neither are the Africans. Why? Because all too often the poor and the oppressed are like a prop in a play to the left. They have no existence other than the one they serve to advance the cause. Therefor, they care about the Africans when the plight of the Africans can help advance their agendas.
And they care about the poor of Latin America when they can talk about union oppressing death merchants on the right. But open trade to and with Latin America? Not so much.
Uribe is alive. Saddam is dead. I see no reason to confuse or link (no pun) the two.
At one point flag-pin diplomacy works against our interests. They haven’t been fighting a civil war for over forty years for nothing, or because those little wimps living in the jungle ain’t got no reason to do what they’re doing outside of a love for death. Sometimes I think we should stay the hell out of countries if all we do if screw things up even worse by handing out flag-pins and bombs.
There isn’t always a heroic good guy to pin a flag-pin on the chest of. We may not want FARC to win, but to give the winky-winky nod nod to persons who are no better, possibly even worse, than FARC does us no good in the long run.
I point to the current coca production in Colombia. It’s up. Strange how our multi-billion dollar Plan Colombia (thank you Clinton) actually resulted in more cocaine production and not less. Shit, it would have been cheaper to buy their cocaine wholesale while saving the lives of all those men, women and children who get summarily executed in the name of promoting democracy in the Americas and our war on drugs.
Like I said, even Republican and Independent-minded Americans are capable of recognizing a on-going disaster if they’re given the facts and not talk-radio propaganda. Politics is a smoke screen.
Dan:
This is true. Ortega saw the light.
parsnip:
You idiot. You know that Iran and Venezuela are good buddies don’t you? It is not as if they hide it or anything.
thor! UN! UN! Try to focus! The discussion was about the UN.
We have heard your antiAmerican boilerplate before.
oh here, I finally found a clip
thor:
Oh please. Yes, I know Uribe is alive and Saddam is dead. I also know that Latin America might be blighted by its traditions from old Europe but it is not showing a lot of signs of turning into new Europe. So, we have the choice of the pro American Uribe who has actually instituted some reforms OR Farc. Some choice. Maybe we should just make the place the 51st state and run it for them since we are going to blamed for their government anyway.
Enough of this.
Terrye,
So what if Iran and Venezuela are “good buddies.”
If we can trust Iran to guide our investment n Iraq, certainly we can trust it with our 4th leading supplier of imported oil.
Talk about death merchants, FARC has killed thousands of civilians in that country and God only knows what they would do if they actually had control of the government.
parsnip:
God you are slow. First you smirk at the idea that Hezbellah could be in South America and then you say so what if Iran is buddies with Venezuela. Iran is a supporter of Hezbellah and Venezuela is in South America. keep up.
As for Iran controlling our investments in Iraq, that is nonsense and besides if it was left to people like you they could have taken the place over with your blessings. The problem you have is that you do not know what you are talking about. Really.
Now, Terrye. You keep on like that and you’ll have him linking to stuff that doesn’t have anything to do with the topic.
I’m not so interested in your feelings being hurt by some idiots on the Left, nor your inflating what a few say into what all persons on the Left stand for, Terrye.
Uribe, like Chavez, is trying to change his country’s constitution so he can serve more terms than the Colombian constitution allows. And he’s pro-American alright. You put enough money in a man like that’s hands and he becomes a pro something.
It’s all the same shit. Power. Money. More Power. More Money. At least be honest enough to call it what it truly is, a politically corrupt play for power and money.
We should work for the resolution of war in Colombia, much like the U.N. did in El Salvador. That means recognizing the grievances of some of those Leftist guerrillas. Oh and they do have plenty of legitimate grievances. The terrorist killings of 4000 members of the Patriotic Union for one.
When pro-American means pro-dictator and pro-mass murder, I ain’t that type of pro-American.
We should work for the resolution of war in Colombia, much like the U.N. did in El Salvador.
Why not just let the UN do it?
</i.
If they had control of the government they might act similar to the government, the horror!
You don’t know the extent of the civilian killings by the Colombian military’s para-militaries. Don’t put your redumblican flag-pin on and pretend you do. Even Uribe has the para-military leaders arrested, then he ships them to Miami once it’s revealed his own family and 25% of his own political party has been taking bribes from the newly arrested paramilitary leaders. 11 of them, extradited to Miami just recently, because they wouldn’t give up the ill gotten narco-gold, as they were supposed to. Read the news much?
Please, thor. Rethuglidums is shorter.
Should I have went with all caps in 176, you think? Maybe BOLD too.
A question worth asking.
Monroe Doctrine, maybe?
We had so much success with paraquat. No more weed can be found for sale baggied up in small quantities on the street. Must be.
Or maybe because, as originally asserted, the UN sucks.
Terrye,
All I see are crazy, bitter and old right wing extremists constantly combing the globe, looking for another group of brown people to hate.
We all need to admit America isn’t the world’s policeman anymore(if it ever was)and stop poking our nose in where ever the war profiteers want us to.
I defer to your superior semiotics. Rethuglidums from now on it shall be!
Have I made valid points? Have I made a valid argument? Have I limited my descriptors as best as my emotive regulator will allow?
Have I changed the hearts and minds of any Rethuglidums?
Yes, the Colombian para-militaries have chopped the heads off and quartered children in front of villagers and the children’s parents for no other reason that to display what will happen to those peasant farmers who aide the rebels. That is not who I want my tax-money militarily equipping. Ignorance to these atrocities does not absolve our government’s complicity, least of all deserve a Medal of Freedom.
Human rights isn’t the sole domain of a selected few.
like Obama and Pakistan?
Sometimes securing our homeland involves unpleasant activities abroad that are often termed as adventures by the cavalier and by many other terms of derision by their detractors…
It’s a fact, and an inconvenient truth for many Booooooosh! haters, that the war in Iraq drew Al-Queda into a characteristically Arab manhood competition with the US government. While this contest was joined, as allies of AQ, by many other Islamo-fascist groups, the operative fact often trivialized or overlooked is simply the location where all of that bitter fighting took place-IRAQ!
George Will may choose to characterize the war in Iraq as an exercise in nation building, but I prefer to look at it as choosing the battlefield where we face down our opponents. And in the final analysis, it is, and has been, infinately better and safer for US civilians if the fighting with the extremists took place anywhere other than on US soil…
Ultimately, history will take a more favorable view of Bush than anyone may think today. In addition to what I have mentioned here vis-a-vis the GWOT, the long view of the current financial crisis will become more clear as well as it’s causes and benefactors, much like is always the case…
Besides, after Obama gets done, although he will always be an inferior speaker Bush will be seen to have a much superior temperment, grace, and sense of duty then the classless next President does…
If not for your obvious military enlistment, I might laugh at your self righteous admonishment about the selfishness of those who think the lives lost were not worth what was gained. I mean, who would refer to anyone on any side of a political position as being selfish or selfless via that position – obviously, it’s a dichotomy that can only be applicable to those willing to sacrifice something or not.
Ya know what I REALLY can’t stand, though? The selfish bastards who are against liberating (by invasion) the following countries:
Brunei
Oman
Qatar
Saudi Arabia
Swaziland
China
Cuba
North Korea
Laos
Syria
Turkmenistan
Vietnam
Fiji
Libya
Myanmar
Mauritania
Guinea
Selfish pricks….
If that was an attempted play of the chickenhawk card, you’ve come to the wrong place.
I too saw Iraq being a valuable vortex of death for sucking in al-Qaeda. But try and explain the benefits of such to Iraqi survivors whose relatives were caught in the crossfire.
We should already be drawing down our forces. Bush and Cheney didn’t exactly pass muster in planning or gauging the action on the ground. Shit, even McCain better assessed what was going on and what was needed there.
I hate to pop your Bush balloon or deflate you hatred toward Obama, but history may not be so kind to the so-called facts your promoting.
OK, after #183 Parsnip can go away now, and rest its weary head. It’s managed to stuff all its anti-Republican/conservative/libertarian, anti-war, isolationism sentiments into one teeny little post.
Work done, little veggie. Time for bed.
why?
189 for 186
Look!!!! Bunnies!!!
Now that we have that out of the way, have you noticed that we’ve been losing more troops during basic training in Georgia than on the battlefield in Iraq lately? Have you noticed we’re now reduced to printing money to prop up our newly nationalized banks?
Maybe put the comic book down.
what do those things have to do with troop numbers in Iraq?
Maybe we could pull troops from Kosovo first? or safer places like Germany or Japan?
Yeah, but your Muslim killing friends lost Iraq, snippy. Whatever attracted you to those bloodthirsty bastards?
maybe you could put the bottle down, first.
also, you never provided a link for the Uribe extraditions. all I could find was 14 from May of last year. maybe we have different ideas of “recent”?
Oh, that’s rich. hey pan, you got something against the Sudanese? Racist.
http://tinyurl.com/9a6slu
Yeah, unlike mine, you have a contrived version of “recently” and reality.
http://tinyurl.com/8wzrxj
so, May of 2008 and fourteen not eleven. thanks.
I’m young, so I guess I thought that meant at most the last month or so.
You make some good points thor,
I too feel for the Iraqi civilaians that have suffered during the insurgency battles. But ultimately they are going to be better off than they ever would have been under either the Baathists, Saddam, or any of his heirs…
I also agree with you about the terible mismanagement of the war early on; I don’t know what Rumsfeld was thinking, and won’t try to defend his actions. I’ll only say that he was competent during the period where the Iraqi military was being defeated; but the occupation-not so much. And often I squirmed inside while trying to defend the notion of the war to it’s critics, while I personally felt that in some respects the lives of valient and honorable soldiers were being squandered. Still, it was infinately better to conduct the surge and get the job done properly, instead of simply declare the war lost and cut and run. While we all have a right to our informed opinions on the matter, I personally consider it vile and nearly criminal for Pelosi and Reid to continue to pronounce the war lost simply to score cheap political points…
I too would have liked to see our forces being withdrawn sooner and earlier than they will be. I have many friends and relatives serving there, and pray for their safe return daily; just as I pray for peace to break out all over Iraq and indeed the middle east.
Finally, I don’t really have a Bush balloon for you to pop. I am disappointed at many things he did, and didn’t, accomplish. I am angry about the trillions in debt he signed for, basically in trade for funding the Iraq war. And I am also angry that he didn’t straigten out social security. But I do believe that many in the MSM and on the political left have, and promote, a cartoon caricature of him that is unfair and basically untrue…
And neither do I “hate” Obama. I actually am drawn in by his natural charisma as much as anyone; he’s probablyu the kind of fellow I’d like to spend time with drinking, smoking, and discussing philosophy, politics, art, and life. I just don’t believe he’s ready or qualified for the Presidency-yet. The blatant propagandistic support and assistance provided him by the MSM frankly left me feeling violated, bamboozled, and hokey-doked; hell they don’t even try to conceal it! Also, I believe that he engaged in some pretty shady actions, with some fairly shady people, and clearly crossed ethical lines others probably hadn’t in the interest of winning; and while others may have done the same in the past, not everyone has! And certainly not someone who spent the entire time declaring his honesty, ethics, integrity and such. So, I don’t hate him as much as I fear for the imprint he’ll leave on our nation and society; in the name of fairness…
So as for history and it’s judgement of Boooooosh!..? Well we’ll see, won’t we. Until then, you and I will just have to accept and agree to disagree…
Remebering of course, that people can disagree, without being disagreable…
Best wishes, I hope you enjoy the Inauguration…
One last point thor,
With respect to the length of occupation, recall that we had to actively occupy Japan and Germany for many, many, years. And while the WOT is not of the same magnitude as WWII or the cold war, it is as existentially threatening to our home soil as either of thise were. And, we are the only nation with the political will to lead the coalition of those fighting against the axis of Islamo-fascism; so to speak…
Best Wishes
Either someone is sockpuppetting the regular thor, or thor is doing a remarkable job this evening.
Don’t agree with everything “it, whomever it is” has written, but its been cognitively better much of this thread.
Less vituperation, more logic…good job!
You and I are mostly in agreement, Bob. I wasn’t against knocking out a proven scumbag like Saddam, but I do question our methodology and the expense. I also know about the best laid plans going horribly wrong.
This Uribe character is exemplary of the same preferred simplistic binary over complicated truth that Bush and Co. seem to so easily subscribe to. Is Uribe the enemy of America? No. Is he deserving of a Medal of Freedom? No.
Bush’s unpopularity isn’t totally a byproduct of the media. The media excuse has become a broken crutch, imho.
I guess, thor, I think Uribe is taking the country forward, perhaps not quickly enough.
But you’re right about the Medal. If he deserves one, we likely won’t know that until he retires.
If he deserves one, he could be given one then.
thor,
You’re absolutely wright about the best laid plans of mice and men often go awry, to use a literary cliche, and the law of unintended consequences; one that often arises in the fluid situations that is war…
I got to know some columbian fellows from Cali over the last few years. During the last election they voted for Uribe, but told me in effect that they were holding their noses while doing so; much like I did this year for McCain….
I asked them why they felt that way about him. Their answer was that he was part of the pie-slicing corruption that surrounded the US war-on-drugs money that was given to them each year; interestingly they also blamed the US congress for not being more curious about just what exactly was being done with their aid money! But all of them agreed that what they liked about him was his “toughness” vis-a-vis the “rebels” as they called them; a vague term they applied to political and narco-criminal elements interchangably. Truthfully, I wouldn’t base my opinion on simply their opinions, and I’m ignorant of the details. So I will defer to your knowledge advantage; does he deserve the medal of freedom, maybe not, but maybe a medal of trade. And certainly congress should have passed the Colombia free trade act, in the interest of openng up that country to more of our goods…
Life is only a binary existence for computers, as you say. There are many shades of gray between black and white. As Mr. Obama is fond of naying, often issues are nuanced…
And I don’t blame the media for all of Bush’s unpopularity. I believe I cited some sore spots that you certainly won’t find in the NY Times! Of course Bush has brought some of his unpopularity on himself, through his actions, inactions, and stoically suffering his opponents. But these are all things that he did because of his principles. Thinking folks can debate whether these principles were worth spending his political capital on, or even adhering to…
Best Wishes, I gotta go now, 0100 est and this old vagabond has to hit the rack
“Bush’s unpopularity isn’t totally a byproduct of the media.”
Believe it or not, there are quite a few things about Bush that have displeased folks on the right…
Spending, printing money like a counterfeiter, no child gets ahead, steel tariffs, prescription drug, lack of significant reform of government….lots of things that peeps on the right are unhappy about.
And we are happy with several things too.
He won’t go down as one of the greats, but he might end up being ranked fair to good. We’ll see how things shake out in 15 years…
There are wars where there is a clear division between the parties and where we can stand with one combatant versus the other, obviously. There are other countries that possess huge disparities between rich and poor, between property owners and a hopless assetless class where we should have never simplified the conflicts into simplified cold war good/bad binaries. We lost. We were the tyrants. We fucked up. We sided too quickly too easily with the rich and powerful while dismissing the peasants and small farmers – those small town people who Sarah Palin found to be so hard working and patriotic in America, if you’ll recall.
I stand with memory of Archbishop Oscar Romero, no matter which of the dirty little names of political ideology are cast at him. You quell populist frustration by providing hope for a better future and not with a shower of bullets. Ronald Reagan was wrong, dead wrong.
sorry thor,
wright = right
S/B “The best laid plans of mice and men often go awry”
columbian = Colombian…(Fruedian slip!)
*sigh*
Did I mention it was late, and I’ve been repairing my home’s boiler most of the day-on one of the coldest days this year so far in NYC!
He will be the man of this century  who was sure of himself despite terrible pain and suffering  who showed the way to victory. He is the only one who remained true to himself, who did not cheaply sell his faith and his ideals, who always and without doubt followed his straight path toward his goal. That goal may today be hidden behind the piles of rubble that our hate-filled enemies have wrought across our once-proud continent, but which will once again shine before our burning eyes once the rubble has been cleared.
– One bad man talking about another bad man ten days before they killed themselves and their families
Bob, I think history has already decided on Bush. The days when we had to wait for cloistered historians to debate the merits of famous people for decades before they rendered a verdict are long gone.
There’s a dollar!
not so much. The reason it takes so long is there are lots of documents that take a while to get declassified. National security issues don’t end just because someone is leaving office.
Bush will go down in history for his many political failings, the economy first and foremost, while the silliness of diminishing the man simply for his personal foibles will be forgotten.
Bush isn’t a wretch of a man, but he was fairly inept at leading. He lost his own party, for Christ sakes. The Republican party has become a rudderless ship of self-preserving warring ogres. Bush, we hate him! McCain, we hate him! Who the hell don’t they hate? Thompson, that lazy bag of Tennessee foreskin? They know who they hate, but can’t decide who they like, outside of the low IQ hicktards who go stiff for Sarah Palin.
hink history has already decided on Bush. The days when we had to wait for cloistered historians to debate the merits of famous people for decades before they rendered a verdict are long gone.
Matter of fact, history has already decided on Obama as well. Best president EVA!
Nice spotting, maggie.
Other than the war profiteers, who, exactly, did Bush remain loyal to?
Conservatives?
The biblehumpers?
The Republican party?
Do tell!
The mountain bikers.
Loyalty is what makes one great? really? after you made that quote?
After listening to his farewell address you could say Bush was loyal to his horrid speech writers.
Amazing disgrace.
well, yes, I did just watch Downfall Friday night, so it’s fresh on my mind.
much like Obama and his teleprompter, I guess. >a href=”http://jimtreacher.com/archives/001947.html”> uh.
Welp, Bush needs support if he’s going to rehabilitate himself like Nixon did.
you really don’t understand what it is historians do, do you? some even consider it a science.
Aaah, but which set of historians do you believe, maggie.
They come in all the political flavours these days.
The ones with good documentation.
Haha, that’s funny, maggie, considering the arts of document destruction, forgery and manipulation is so advanced now.
You’d cede the writing of history to the folks generating the documents, phony and otherwise?
That’s how it’s always been done. you have a better idea?
I mean, it’s not like journalists ever make stuff up, right? generally, a good researcher makes their data available and forgeries and what not are caught, are they not?
I’m not saying “use only official documents” I’m saying the best historians are those that can show their “work” which includes official sources and not so official sources, but they are verifiable by others.
History will be kind to me for I intend to write it.
– A lovable but overrated politician
From a non-partisan, “history as a science” point of view, those 10,000,000 missing White House emails sure puts a dent in any possible research, what?
those 10,000,000 missing White House emails sure puts a dent in any possible research, what?
Yup, just like the wiped drives of the Clinton White House…
dent? perhaps, but the government isn’t run on emails.
There’s plenty of other crap being moved to the warehouse in Lewisville. and there’s also Congress and various and sundry other branches of the Executive. Nobody is saying “we’ll only accept what comes from the White House”. not even Churchill’s historians limit themselves in that respect.
Though I will truly mourn the loss of “Hey, what should we have for lunch today?” and “Barney has left a present for someone outside my office”
Wouldn’t get too worked up over this. The country is always bigger than one man.
Except you, parsnip. You go ahead and work yourself into whatever the hell you you going to work yourself into.
Still getting the hang of this. That should read whatever the hell you were going to.
Hey, until yesterday I didn’t even know what a blog was.
and that’s when you add “Preview is my friend” except we don’t have “preview” here. heh.
“Hey, until yesterday I didn’t even know what a blog was.”
Well, willkommen, bienvenue, welcome…!!!
Thank You lieutenant. Hi Maggie.
Hi, NC!
Maggie,
I went over to your site and saw your “Decisions Decisions.” I will say one thing: Intelligent volunteer is an oxymoron.
heh. well, he pretty much volunteered for the first two deployments as well. Mostly it’s a way to avoid later, non-voluntary deployments that might not be as “nice”. I don’t think he’s made a final decision about it yet.
Didn’t mean to sound negative. What I meant to say is that you and your family have done your duty. You have worn the uniform and seen the elephant. Don’t go tempting fate.
Well, God bless you Maggie. May he look out for you and yours.
thanks, NC. I’ll let RTO know what you said, too.
Yes. My idea would be for you and other know-it-all simpletons to get a proper education, which would entail reading Derrida and at least understanding something of his theory of truth and its variants. Maybe that’s asking too much. How about Ved Mehta’s Argument Without End? Think you can handle the New Yorker?
not like you can handle your liquor apparently.
We can spend our way out of recession! The simple verities are the bestest ones I think plus you get lots of cool shit that way.
but so you also are going to argue we don’t need historians because everything is already settled nowadays? no need to examine the past anymore, it’s all made up anyway.
um, I can’t seem to find that one.
Keep trying, you should make some time to improve your Google skills anyway. Mehta was a writer who couldn’t write. That was mostly because he couldn’t read. His formidable essay titled Argument Without End is about historians Toynbee, Kerkel and Geyl, etc…
Derrida interprets Plato and trueth, prounounced twoooth! Seems the arguments your trying to grasp of truth and texts was first made famous in Greece. Hint: Plato was wrong, possibly.
well, if his own frickin’ website doesn’t list it, I’m not sure how I’m supposed to find it.
I’m not saying there will ever be an agreed upon TRVTH regarding history. But unlike parsnip, I don’t think that means that we should just write it off either.
teh google it provide nothing useful.
I’ve never stated we shouldn’t study history nor write or argue facts of history. We all pick from a cauldron of facts though to form theories though, now don’t we.
Fly and the Fly-Bottle is the book where I read that particular essay.
Foucault believed history came from the hand and pen of power. Stanley Fish believed it’s in the eye of the interpretive beholder. But these men are not nearly as clever as you, so don’t put too much faith in their thoughts.
and here I thought that’s what I was getting at. but see, parsnip stated, there’s no need for that anymore. we’ve got all the facts re: GWB. I’m just saying things will probably come out later like they always do. Some things take time to be safely declassified.
oh and then went on to insinuate that pretty much anything released later (if anything exists) will mostly likely be fake.
Yup. It’s like Katrina. We’ll find all the reports of cannibalisms and babyrapings and spyings and torturetorturetorture attributed to Bush are entirely insubstantial and MSNBC and NPR and the NYT will just sort of go oh whatever he sucked anyway. You can’t just lie about shit for eight years and then keep maintaining those lies when you have so many new lies what need attending to. The truth will out. Eventually.
oh. It’s blue, the sky in my world. Thanks for asking.
hmmmm, baby blue or royal blue?
There are other countries that possess huge disparities between rich and poor, between property owners and a hopless assetless class where we should have never simplified the conflicts into simplified cold war good/bad binaries. We lost. We were the tyrants. We fucked up.
He says as he continues to simplifiy the conflicts into cold war good/bad binaries. Google “pre-industrial economy”, then come back and lecture us about how uneducated we are, dipshit.
I believe what parsnip was implying is that he believes there will be little evidence forthcoming that GWB was a man a hidden intellectual curiosity and heft.
The reason I brought up Mehta’s essay was that it explores firsthand the differing opinions and approaches to writing history from the leading historians of that day. Mehta’s usual magic is he visits these historians in person and they carry on the debate through him. It’s as entertaining as revealing of human nature. I can make a digital copy and send it to Dan and he can send it to you if you’re so inclined. It’s lengthy though, but flirty intellects arguing as if they’d rather choke the lights out of one another rather than find common ground has a good degree of humor value.
What people mean when they say history will be the judge is that the job isn’t finished- the only way to judge the success of his Presidency is to predict the ultimate outcome of his decisions, forecasting the future isn’t history.
You can go back to name dropping and lecturing us on how dense we are now.
well, it’s not always about “intellectual curiosity and heft” is it? particularly when we’re talking about decisions made based on facts unknown to most of us. us lacking the security clearance and all.
knock yourself out on the copy… can’t tell you when I would get to it, as I seem be going insane at the moment, but I do tend to read everything that shows up in my mailbox.
You’re denser than anti-matter. Pppp.
Time won’t change his low approval ratings nor his handing off of decision making without seeming to care much other than to occasionally administer the decision makers. The initial reflection of opinion is that GWB was a man who was, at least initially, easily buffaloed. But we shall see, won’t we.
Maybe Harriet Miers for the SCOTUS wasn’t as instantly dead as the worm at the bottom of a bottle of tequila but the sort of misunderstood GWB genius that can only reveal itself in due time. I’m holding out hope for the latter.
Time won’t change …. But we shall see, won’t we.
Stunning intellect.
Maybe Harriet Miers for the SCOTUS…
LOOK! CHRISTIANS!!!!
well, it’s just so.. whoa, have you ever looked at your hand? no, I mean really looked at your hand?
By the way, I still haven’t heard what any of the great philosophers think about the UNs failure to duplicate their stunning success in El Salvador anywhere else in Central or South America.
Have you ever done as you’re told, I mean really done as you’re told?
Have you ever put your faith in the hands of highly intellectual bickering children? I mean all your faith, sinner!
Have you ever done as you’re told, I mean really done as you’re told?
Not since I renounced the Democrat Party. You?
Mr. Bush’s legacy, it’s not as fraught as all that. It’s easy to forget that. He handed off a nation what is free, with free peoples and free little carbon dioxide molecules and freedom to have a gun if you want and freedom to worship whatever and freedom to say stuff. That’s a big deal we may come to find. Cause Baracky and his woman are dirty socialist control freaks, specially when their power base is mostly flaky not terribly well educated pseudojournalist people what need constant minding and on top of that they have to take their cues from Harry & Nancy and Mr. Soros cause of how they have no actual experience at the administerings of the fascist welfare state stuff what for them has always been sort of wetdreamy and theoretical.
the UNs failure to duplicate their stunning success in El Salvador anywhere else in Central or South America
South America is where they make gelatinized sweet potato and chocolate what comes in flat round cans. I’d say they’re doing alright.
I go to New York now. You guys have happy inaugurationings and would someone tivo the Jonas Brothers for me? Cause of the historicalness. Thanks and I will try to check in but I have a deliverable what I have to while I’m there cause I’m still behind but after that I will be caught up and ready to help on the new and improved Declaration of Independence now with dirty socialist retsin crystals thing.
Comment by NC on 1/19 @ 2:16 am #
Semper Fi from a Marine Corps Dad.
“#Comment by thor on 1/19 @ 5:22 am #
I believe what parsnip was implying is that he believes there will be little evidence forthcoming that GWB was a man a hidden intellectual curiosity and heft. ”
That’s because alfie is a fucking retarded marmoset.
Like you.
Now go take your meds and have a nice long nap, hor.
“Comment by thor on 1/19 @ 5:43 am #
You’re denser than anti-matter. Pppp.”
Anti-matter is no denser than regular matter, you intellectual midget.
Go take your meds and stop bothering the smart people.
We needs us a dirty socialist to make all well and right, said you. Have you noticed we’re now reduced to printing money to prop up our newly nationalized banks?
Gott’a another fish hook in your pussy, P’brain.
Iggles choked like Larry Craig on a race horse. Suffer.
believe what parsnip was implying is that he believes there will be little evidence forthcoming that GWB was a man a hidden intellectual curiosity and heft. â€Â
Well, Parsnip is an idiot …
Mr. Bush insisted on another rematch in 2008. But it will be a three-peat for me: as of today, his total is 40 volumes to my 64. His reading this year included a heavy dose of history — including David Halberstam’s “The Coldest Winter,” Rick Atkinson’s “Day of Battle,” Hugh Thomas’s “Spanish Civil War,” Stephen W. Sears’s “Gettysburg” and David King’s “Vienna 1814.” There’s also plenty of biography — including U.S. Grant’s “Personal Memoirs”; Jon Meacham’s “American Lion”; James M. McPherson’s “Tried by War: Abraham Lincoln as Commander in Chief” and Jacobo Timerman’s “Prisoner Without a Name, Cell Without a Number.”
2006 – 95 books
2007 – 51
2008 – 40
Now, you gotta keep up with the ever-changing meme. Bush spent all his time reading, THAT is why he sucked.
Someone needs to inform President Bush that reading the inside sleeve is not the same thing as actually reading the book.
Strange how the man can’t recite a single line from those many books he’s read, bawahaha.
I know I find your arguments enhanced, thor, by the name-calling. Good work, son.
Strange how the man can’t recite a single line from those many books he’s read, bawahaha.
Strange how you think anyone could possibly find your argument compelling. Plato and Mehta would be disappointed.
The Iggles choked harder than Mark Foley eating a bread stick.
Well you know, Carin, that a good Socialist will fix the monetary system too. thor’s an
idiotexpert on banking. Just ask him.Maybe breadsticks are denser than antimatter, thor.
The Iggles choked like George Bush chowing on a pretzel.
Don’t make Carin and I discuss the Lions, son. Don’t do it.
The Iggles choked like a field mouse trying to woof a cheese steak.
The Iggles choked harder than a goldfish in gasoline.
Hey, now the Lions have a new coach … hope and change JHoward.
JHo don’t pester me with your rethuglidum flea market economics while I’m working the Iggle analogies.
I’ve got to concentrate.
“I’ve got to concentrate.”
Stop staring at the orange juice.
I hear there’s no such thing as a free lunch.
The Iggles choked harder than Bristol Palin backstage at a .50-cent concert.
The Iggles choked like Michael Hutchece in a door jam.
Comment by thor on 1/19 @ 8:23 am #
That’s nice, hor, now got take your OCD medication and have a nice long nap.
The Iggles choked like they flew through smog.
The Iggles choked like Rush Limbaugh in a headlock.
Even hor’s insults are stale and unoriginal.
I think the word is ‘trite’.
Well, it took Truman 35-40 years for his redemption. I highly suspect Bush’s will come sooner, thanks in large part to Barack Obama.
So, you can just to cry into your Victory Cola, alphie.
I reread the thread and my point stands…
Every one arguing that Bush “made mistakes” in Iraq is simply parroting Hezbollah-ian talking points. Ugh!
Period.
Take away the media’s politicized talking points and focus on the real, governmental record, and Parsnip’s, Thor’s and Nancy Pelosi’s critiques lose their bite.
(Why are these guys so solicitous towards Iranian interests? This is the question historians will ask.)
Could be they’re just toothless Baathists with a media-megaphone: the Devil wears Prada! Meryl Streep demolishes the type in the film – watch it.
Little P’brain is so angry. Did you try to save money by using a lye-based oven cleaner instead of a vinegar-based douche? Yeah. That’d hurt. Won’t try that again, will ya, P’brain.
After the Iggles choked like goldfish in gasoline, did you have to fight back your emotions? Did you change the channel only to find Obama’s face was ubiquitous? The MSM media was replaying an endless sea of true Americans bouncing around in our nation’s capital with faces beaming of joy. It’s as if those smiling people flipped their middle finger directly into your face! Sure, you can try to find things to keep your mind off the pain, but it hurts, really, really hurts. As if goddamned Larry Craig himself was holding a Bic lighter to your nipples! Owwwww!
Log on to PW. Post an awful remark or two. It’ll make you feel less like the asshole everyone is extending their middle finger at. Just let it all out, deep breaths.
Poor thor, unable to find joy in this world.
I’d quote “Thoroughly Modern Millie”, but then I’d have to denounce myself.
Dang. Here I was…weary of the left vs right narrative, looking for a little bit of classical liberalism…and what I do I get?
In the real world, we’ve become so entangled in the lives of others that we cannot see that is exactly what has caused most of our modern day problems.
Logically, rationally, if you don’t believe in big government, if you believe in self-determination and individual liberty, then entangling yourselves and your nation in the affairs of others is a non-starter.
Additionally, you’ve bought into the MSM and liberal narrative that our entanglement in Iraq was interventionism and was not a simple matter of self defense.
Time won’t change his low approval ratings
Yes, but ‘approval ratings’ are not the sum total of how well a president did, at least by the long vision of history. I’d much rather have a president that did what was unpopular but necessary than one that held off on something necessary and pushed it on to a later president to boost his own approval ratings.
It seems to be a reoccurring theme, actually, with people complaining about companies and CEOs that sacrifice long-term financial viability for the sake of short-term profit. Even the Democrats recognize the idea, when they complain that the average American isn’t sacrificing enough for the Democrat’s long-term plans…
Also, note, that Alphie has dropped the UN’s budget from the debate like a hot potato. Just like he dropped his Geneva Convention claims. Just like he drops everything when we call him on it.
Adequate Larry Craig. Not enough Jamaican sex assault phantasies.