Political discourse in this country being in the state it’s in, I was only mildly surprised to find this post at feministe, the latter part of which pretends to encapsulate the argument I made in response to the Chicago Tribune’s ridiculous essay about racial victimhood and who, in essence, can lay claim to it.
Writes Jill (for a post she shoehorns into the categories “Assholes, Racism” — as if Jill would be able to identify the latter were it to be coated in aerosol cheese and shoved sidewise into the former):
Shockingly, the Michelle Obama “whitey†tape doesn’t exist. Knock me over with a feather. But even though Michelle never called anybody “whitey,†conservatives would still like to talk about how deeply offended they are by the fact that someone, somewhere, calls people “whitey.†Apparently “whitey†is actually a painful and cruel slur towards white people. Now, I’ve never actually heard anyone actually use the term “whitey†seriously  and the term I do hear cruelly hurled at some white people is “white trash,†but that involves a class issue that wingnuts aren’t going to touch  but that doesn’t stop white conservatives from jumping on the oppression gravy-train. I can just see the thought process: “Maybe if we push this one hard enough, we’ll get affirmative action too!â€Â
But the true colors come out pretty quickly:
And yes, yes, I know; there certainly has been institutionalized and individual greed on the part of white people. But the present and past neediness of the world is hardly based on that, nor do white people have a corner on greed or exploitation. If anyone thinks that poverty would be eliminated if black people ran the world, for example, just take a look at so many of the indigenous leaders in Africaâ€â€and I’ve also got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
Jeff Goldstein also had his fee-fees hurt that black people can call him whitey but he can’t call them the n-word. So unfair.
Leave aside for the moment the nipple hardening outrage Jill and her band of serially-indignant feminist scolds would undergo were I to wave off one of their arguments as a silly widdle emotional tantrum (“Aw, did the little lass have her ‘fee-fees’ hurt by the big throbbing patriarchalist logic? Maybe she should take a greenie and wait for her flow to pass”), what is truly astonishing to me is that someone with her supposed legal skills and education could so poorly represent my argument.
In fact, it is so astonishing that I can only conclude that her misrepresentation was in fact purposeful, and that Jill has finally fully evolved into the kind of ideological hack so terrified of legitimate critiques of her worldview that she feels the need to preemptively diminish such critiques — in this case, by screeching “racist” after having essentially invented the “racist argument” against which she purportedly stands.
At any rate, my response, which I left in the comments:
Is that really what you took out of my post, Jill, or are you just now pandering to your readership?
The post title comes from a Sly and the Family Stone song decrying the tossing back and forth of racial epithets (â€ÂDon’t call me Nigger, Whitey / Don’t call me Whitey, Niggerâ€Â)  which the band thought was wrong on all acounts. The Chicago Trib piece, on the other hand, argues that whites aren’t entitled to be offended by the term “whitey.” In essence, the argument is that white indignation at a racially-loaded term is somehow inauthentic because whites have institutionalized power, and that whites who take offense [at such racially-motivated slurs] are “morons.†I found this difficult to swallow coming, as it does, from a progressivist worldview that has been preaching “tolerance†based around the idea of not giving offense for so long now it has become almost itself institutionalized.
Forget for the moment that the Trib’s thesis incorporated a rather sweeping statement about whites. Forget, too, about intent, which as you know is a special interest of mine, hermeneutically speaking.
In my post, I argued that what we are seeing is an attempt to set the boundaries for this “frank conversation on race†we’re supposed to be having  the ground rules for which, as your post further indicates, will evidently determine in advance who can have a voice in this “debate†without being immediately labeled racist.
How you got from that to “Jeff Goldstein also had his fee-fees hurt that black people can call him whitey but he can’t call them the n-word†I have no idea. I made no claim that I would or should be able to call anyone nigger.
Which makes me wonder if you even bothered to read the post.
At any rate, I’ve long since given up on trying to have conversations on certain subjects with self-righteous leftists who find their self-worth in the degree to which they can apologize. And of course, everyone knows they aren’t apologizing for themselves, really; after all, they acknowledge the evil of others who may appear like them, which marks them as, you know — one of the good ones.
It’s sad, Jill, that you can no longer even be bothered to properly read and comment on a post from someone on the other side of the political divide, particularly someone who has gone out of his way time and again to try to start conversations with you and your readers.
Of course, you aren’t alone in this. Which is one of the reasons I seldom blog anymore. I mean really, why bother with people who start from a position of bad faith?
As progressivism moves forward, free speech will almost surely be murdered on the altar of political correctness — if only because that ploy rids progressives of the messy business of having to deal with what they consider unpleasant and untoward opposition to their ideas.
Which they can only do because they believe their ideas are inherently right and just by virtue of their holding them.
Circular and dangerous, but the state of nature in this, Obama’s America.
zomg!
he’s baaaaaack in the Game!
stand by for launch of the Bullying Attack Penises!
3
2
1
blast off!
if only because that ploy rids progressives of the messy business of having to deal with what they consider unpleasant and untoward opposition to their ideas.
Geez, isn’t this the truth. Wish we could just hand out earplugs instead.
[…] update: If you’re one of the few people who bothered to come over from feministe rather than simply take at face value Jill’s ludicrous encapsulation of my argument in this post, my response is here. […]
Perusing history we know how this will end.
Hopefully the sane will be able to back off to
relative safety when illiberals began eating
their own.
Things are getting kind of gross
And I go at sleepy time
This is not really happening
You bet your life it is
Dude, Crack the Sky? I hadn’t thought of those guys in years. Excellent call.
“Of course, you aren’t alone in this. Which is one of the reasons I seldom blog anymore. I mean really, why bother with people who start from a position of bad faith?”
Goddamnit. This means the leftists have won! Goddamnit all to hell.
Well, to steal your prose, I’m sure hearing that she may have had some small part in reducing your output must have her nipples as hard as glass.
Wow, Jeff; I’d thought when I read your post that you were excerpting her. Then I go there and read her post to find out that’s all there was.
No self-respecting lawyer could let it go less than a few thousand words, unless she were off the clock.
Ah. Ok. My bad.
I knew the Sly post would require a follow-up in which I once again defend myself against charges of “racism”, so I’ve been keeping CTS in my back pocket, so to speak.
Yeah, not much to it other than that little bit of misrepresentation, Slart. In fact, she quotes from someone, but there was no link, so I’m not even sure which REICH WING RACIST’S TRUE COLORS she’s exposing.
Maybe she’ll update later. If she does, somebody let me know. I won’t be going back over there.
I would like to think that when someone else other than Bush is President we’ll put an end to the 8-year temper tantrum we have witnessed. Alas, I don’t think we will ever get a reprieve.
The upside of the intertubes–more information quicker. The downside? You never realized so many of the people around you were so … ummmm… volatile.
I question the timing. The NBA Finals ended mere moments before this post came up in its initial, hurried form.
Topically re: which– Congrats to the Boston Negro Guest Worker Program for their brutal stompout of the half-honky Lakers. Enjoy your flights out, fellas.
Typing things here puts you under no obligation to “argue” with idiots and/or tools. Say what you think and break out. Fuck those fucks.
Jeff,
I agree that you were marginalized inappropriately in Jill’s post, but I think your primary flaw was not properly connecting your analysis to the conversation Obama wishes us to have about race.
Scholars have chosen to include institutional oppression in the definition of racism, true, but I think the jump to presuming that’s the conversation that Obama wants us to engage in flies in the face of him admitting problems in both halves of his own racial heritage in his big race speech.
So, because I’d like to be clear, is this a critique of Obama or scholars who defined racism as such?
This Michelle Obama “whitey†tape rumor seems to have more legs than a centipede.
When they starting claiming that the blow should be taken as soft hit to the ‘fee-fees’, you begin to get the feeling that at the very least they believe that Michelle could have said it.
So the “virtual” Michelle Obama “whitey†tape does exist.
“Obama’s America”? How do you so easily lay progressivism’s torture job on free speech at Obama’s feet?
In an election year a lot egg shells are broken and out hop baby giraffes. I’m getting you all the way down to the final two words, but why inject Obama as ubiquitous socio-cultural protagonist/marker of neo-liberalism’s attempts at censorship and constant group-identity pandering? He’s many things but certainly not entirely that.
Hey, here’s a pretty extensive list of Racial and Ethnic Slurs.. Something for everybody.. Quite a few I havent heard before… Kind of reinforces the idea that white people arent the only ones that use or have used slang terms for other groups.
Jeff, she quoted neo-neocon.
thor, I couldn’t figure out who you reminded me of. Then, it came to me. You remind me of Benjy Compson in Faulkner’s, “The Sound and the Fury”.
As progressivism moves forward, free speech will almost surely be murdered on the alter of political correctness
Fait accompli.
What we will see as progressivism moves forward is the most creative and intellectually active minds of our era begin to challenge and dissent from the orthodoxy of the progressive monoculture.
I had three links in the previous comment, and they all disappeared.
Fait accompli.
Congratulations Cetics!! Rajon Rondo just made his rep tonight.
First, because he wants to have a frank conversation about race. Second, this is how his putative supporters go about it.
Obama’s America is that special post-racial place that is post-racial precisely because any honest conversation about race will not be tolerated, and will instead be attributed to the longings of bigots to scream NIGGER whenever possible.
David Wynn —
My original post was a critique of the Tribune and the progressivism that leads to the kind of tortured logic necessary to pen that idiocy. It was also a critique of those portions of academia that use the Spike Lee version of “racism”; I’m not sure that is the predominant view among everyone working on race in the academy — it wasn’t while I was teaching on racial identity — but it may very well now be ascendant, given that it is presented almost matter-of-factly in the Trib piece. But then, it’s just as likely that this is an attempt to mainstream an idea that is not at all supported by a majority of scholars outside of, say, Black Studies Departments.
Sdferr —
Thanks.
JeffG
Jill needs to come out swinging at you … she’s still smarting over the whole Amanda “Jungle” plagarism debacles. As a young white feminist she’s found her little smarmy corner of the political landscape is being told by non-white feminists to get to the back of the bus.
You are Teh Patriarchy(tm) so she feels free to lie about you.
creative minds dissenting.
It’s a losing battle, Aldo. Eventually you tire of fighting. Trust me.
What we will see as progressivism moves forward is the most creative and intellectually active minds of our era begin to challenge and dissent from the orthodoxy of the progressive monoculture.
Relly Aldo?
And how exactly is that accomplished when the best an brightest of the Right are flashin back to the Scopes Monkey Trial?
Is greed some sort of vice that is decided by the amount of light one reflects? I’m the spawn of the freckled Irishmen who came over during that whole “potato famine” fad that wore off after the dead were buried. Am I hip? I soooo want to be real.
That classic SNL sketch with Chevy Chase and Garrett Morris, trading increasingly vile insults comes to mind. What is really so implausible about the nature of such a tape. That meeting with Farrakhan’s wife, the
‘false conscienceness’ of her Princeton thesis; not as bad as Angela Davis. Her
whining about America, being only worthy
because of her husband’s candidacy. The fact that their first date was “Do the
Right Thing” with the Malcolm X subtext.
The easy appeal to anti-American, faux marxist tropes, more appropriate to ’60s
Kenya and the Middle East than 21st Century America.
nishi
does your mommy know you’re up this late?
JeffG
If you have a few moments, please listen to Ultimate Issues hour.
Jeff’s experience with lawyers is limited (and I wish it was moreso) but willfully misrepresenting the opposing side is an all-too-common phenomenon in a “profession” that prides itself on zealous advocacy of the client’s interest. In my experience, most judges tend to be less than impressed by the tactic, but that does not eliminate the practice — or even deter it much.
goliath,
Not to nitpick, but it was Chase and Richard Pryor, doing a free association test as part of a job interview. It is hilarious — and would never make it to air as a new sketch today.
It’s a losing battle, Aldo. Eventually you tire of fighting. Trust me.
I don’t compare myself to you, or David Mamet, or Christopher Hitchens, but I understand the feeling. I intend to quit the blogosphere soon and focus on finishing my novel.
Well, Karl, there was no reason for me as a non-lawyer to disparage the profession. But let’s just say that I had my suspicions.
Jeff,
Speaking only from my experience, as a fresh college grad who took a few courses related to the subject and helped out a few groups on campus, the social oppression definition was the only one I was introduced to… and that crosses the Religion, Sociology, and Cultural Anthropology departments. As I commented on your post, I don’t think it’s the best definition of racism for today’s world moving forward, but I do think it’s likely to be the dominant one in scholar circles today.
Jeff…how can we possibly have an honest conversation about race in this country when no one will admit the biological basis of betweengroup differences in race?
Our culture is steeped in grievance and entitlement.
It occurs to me that Jill, having been raised in a Hippy commune, hath never been in mutual combat with a fellow of the darker persuasion.
When a black man says “hey, whitey (or, ‘white boy,’ or my favorite, ‘greasy white cracka’), whatchu lookin’ at?” And then, the black man doesn’t take “nothing” for an answer, and further yet the matter comes to blows, it kind of seems like “whitey” is an epithet that means something, perhaps a verbal summation of a black racist chip on the shoulder that I (and all my bitter, white friends) don’t suffer well.
Kind of seems to me like something black people say before or in the act of expressing hatred and (sometimes) physical violence motivated by race. Or, like the first time my brother experienced an attempted mugging – “white boy, gimme your bike.” I wonder if, or how many muggings, rapes, and/or murders have been preceded by the words “white boy” “white bitch” or “whitey” . . . Methinks the FBI crime statistics by race might form the basis of an educated guess . . .
Alas, and nevertheless, Jill has forgotten that we had all believed that Obama and wife were the first “post-racial” candidate/campaign, so we were sort of judging them by that divine standard of not judging entire groups of people on the sole basis of race, and/or inciting others to associate an entire race with broad negative characteristics. I’m as disappointed as she is upset at all the white racists.
I wonder if Jill is really that dumb, writing in two paragraphs or so that a tape that doesn’t exist and that she hasn’t seen isn’t offensive to people she doesn’t know or with whom she wouldn’t deign to associate, and they’re the real racists anyway, because of the slavery of which they did not partake. Try this thought experiment – Jill in an Irish Bar in Scranton. Why the fuck would we care what she writes but for the unintentional comedy?
I intend on starting mine, Aldo. Right after the convention and the election. My son will be in pre-school, and I’ll use that time to write the thing. It will probably take me 2-3 weeks to get the first draft down, then a few more to tinker.
Intentionalism, the Novel.
I’m not married to that title, though.
they’d probably let you do that in California.
Fuck that, Maggie. I’ll move to Utah and marry me a whole notebook full of them sexy little strumpets!
I think it takes a special kind of stupid to think that Michelle Obama never called anybody whitey, but I just don’t care one way or another if she did.
Nishi, I didn’t say “the best and brightest of the Right.” I said, “most creative and intellectually active minds of our era.”
If my links had worked you would have seen that the two examples I provided were David Mamet and Christopher Hitchens, who both came from the Left.
It will probably take me 2-3 weeks to get the first draft down, then a few more to tinker.
You must have the thing already written in your head. Lucky you.
the Mamet link worked, an i read Hitch.
I’ll move to Utah and marry me a whole notebook full of them sexy little strumpets!
erm, that wud be texas.
no one will admit the biological basis of betweengroup differences in race
oh fuck that shit
race is myth, gender is not
but not if you listen to Progressives!
quod erat demonstrandum
;)
RE:
Jeff G.posted-
“If anyone thinks that poverty would be eliminated if black people ran the world, just take a look at so many of the indigenous leaders in Africa
We need not look past the last 20 years to find the stellar examples of African leadership
In a word “genocide,” human horror and evil beyond the Euro facist dictator sets of “white boys” during the 20th century,
The civl wars in Darfur, Rwanda, the Sudan, Sierre Leone, Kenya Eddi Amin, Mogadishu Somalia Mohammed Farah Aidid. The unspeakable horror, blood baths, systematically rape horrific tortured, humans hacking each other to death scores of disfigured children who have actualy particapated slaughter.
Jeff G.posted-
If anyone thinks that poverty would be eliminated if black people ran the world,
Yes Jeff, poverty would be eliminated
By virtue of the Darfur, Rwanda, Somalia blood policy
I’m not sure on this one. I have no particular expertise upon which to base a solid opinion, but I’ve had those that do suggest to me that there is a biological basis for race. The morphology certainly seems to suggest something, no? And then there’s stuff like this:
http://carcin.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/26/8/1446
That said, what the fuck do I know. Nishi, I shudder to think that I’m about to ask you for a substantive clarification on this point. Upon what source(s) do you predicate your assertion?
I missed the whole “institutional oppression” qua racism statement.
I guess I can re-phrase my previous post – Jill thinks there is no oppression in the use of the word “whitey” because she has never been sucker-punched by a black man saying “whitey” for no legitimate reason. This, I guess, because for all of her love of black people as mascots, she doesn’t live/work/play anywhere near government subsidized housing, and thus doesn’t live under the threat of physical violence and property crime which many perceive to be motivated (at least in part) by race. As an ethnic (bitter, clingy) white guy, who grew up in a place Jill wouldn’t visit on Easter Sunday morning in an armored Humvee, I perceive people like Michelle Obama inciting racial resentment and (ultimately, in code) rationalizing racially motivated violence as a very real detriment to my life, safety, and well-being. The attitude expressed in the yet-to-be-confirmed “whitey tape” – which certainly squares with Michelle’s comments and associations – is the attitude that restricts my freedom of movement and association, my freedom to live in the neighborhood in which my parents first met as children and in which I was raised and in which I first fell in love. “Whitey,” and what the attitude brings is very, very real to me, and very real to lots of people whose perceptions and opinions are not reflected in the engineered definition of racism that the Fool of Feministe touts about as a given.
mmmm…its the witching hour almost.
thank you for writing Jeff.
you are a light in great darknes.
nite
Oh, and can someone denounce me for my curiousity about a possible biological basis for race?
I would denounce you malaclypse, but really you should wait for one of those that has the special card. for the uber-denouncing.
how can we possibly have an honest conversation about race in this country when no one will admit the biological basis of betweengroup differences in race?
Tell it Lawrence Summers or James Watson or Charles Murray. They tried to have a conversation about between-group differences and they were shut down. I know this creates a lot of cognitive dissonance for you Nish, but it wasn’t the Right Wing War On Science that did it.
#47 mal
What is “race”? If you’re talking something like melanin levels or eye shapes, how is that of any greater shakes than one might see similiar differences between families?
Oh look, there’s the Murphys – fairly tall, red hair, blue eyed, freckled, tendency to lousy teeth and high blood pressure
Then there’s the Liberati’s – short, broad of shoulder, dark olive complexions, dark wirey hair …
The “racial” characteristics arose in response to the environment people lived in… much as gypsy moths change.
But no race is “pure” anymore. Certainly not in America. A “black” man and a “white” man are biologically the same. But both are profoundly different from a woman.
“Oh, and can someone denounce me for my curiousity about a possible biological basis for race?”
Asians are disproportionatley lactose intolerant. (I just want that to be quoted as proof that we’re all racists).
“man are biologically the same. But both are profoundly different from a woman.”
essentiallism iz dumm!!! Eleventy!!! Rozareez of my Ovareez!!
Jeff, she quoted neo-neocon.
Who is infamous for her entrenched racism, intolerance, and Granny Smith apple abuse.
After adulation normally reserved for Barack Obama, nishi dreamily bids Jeff “nite”.
If her tone doesn’t scare you on a subconscious level then you might be unshakable. But don’t you know they’ll be a guy out there who’ll let the drinks go too far and absolutely lose his bowels when she announces she’s expecting. Yep. Whooo. I’d start a bonfire of my books and dive headfirst into the flames if the devil’s gin ever put that on my head. Does anyone know if it’s possible to self-cannibalize, to eat your own flesh until you have to crap a limb to make room for more of yourself? Just asking.
Injustice prevails @ #46 — Where are you getting those quotes? I didn’t write any of that.
#46/58: Jill quotes from Neo-neocon w/o listing the source and then links to Jeff below, which just adds to the overall deception.
Lessons.
Well, I hate to piss anybody off, but I am the proud owner of a “Fighting Whiteys” T-Shirt.
Beat that, you racist assholes! I think it is cool to be called “racist” for not having an iota of racism!
“But you’re WHITE, you racist MoFo!”
Yup. I bm white (well, actually more like “Pink”). Bummer, huh?
I can’t melieve how many times I am called a “racist” because I have the low-life nerve to say “It’s your life, and the choics you make define your ownself.”
Yeah. But it’s my fault that you think that Democrats have done ANYTHIG, EVER to help blacks. Talking is not as important as WALKING, and I must be retarded, because I haven’t seen the Democrats do 7anything other thsn promise the Afro-American community the universe, and then treat them like scum once the election is over
I mean, how racist can I get?
Thor? You are the only true racist here, so “what say you?”. We beg for your input.(Gag!).
I think looking for a biological source of race is a fool’s game. Sure, there may be some gene differences for skin pigmentation and eye size, but there is literally infinite variation along those spectrums. So where would you make the cutoff for one race classification over another? Are we going to make race categories color based (black/white) or region based (African American/Euorpean American)? Race is inherently a social construct, so even if people take biological cues in determining their groupings, that doesn’t make race itself a biological thing.
I think people resist acknowledging any biological basis because they fear that would open the door for claims that one race is biologically superior to another in ways other than color, like intelligence, ambition, or leadership. However, given those traits are extremely socially cultivated, and we don’t even know how to measure them well anyway, I think the likelihood of that happening is slim.
So, yeah, there probably is a gene that does skin pigment… but why bother? We’ve got more important stuff to do both in the scientific community and the rest of the country.
Nishmeister,
It sounds as if the biological difference between races is self-evident to you. What kind of differences are you referring to?
Thx,
BRD
As progressivism moves forward, free speech will almost surely be murdered on the alter of political correctness  if only because that ploy rids progressives of the messy business of having to deal with what they consider unpleasant and untoward opposition to their ideas.
You might be right. The excesses of the 90s pc-speech movement supports your assertion. But I thought that free speech was in danger as I saw that weird bastardization of conservatism which was more of an authoritarianism hit its hight in the early 00’s. But alas, it didn’t happen, in spite of the paranoia. Free speech is pretty hard to murder. Especially in people like us Americans, who are in love with the sound and sight of our own bloviations.
Because somebody–hopefully somebody smarter and more eloquent than I am–should point out the moral bankruptcy of people like that.
And while I’m doubtlessly going to be called a cultist or a toady or one of your minions by somebody or other (why don’t they ever say “Myrmidon,” which is so much cooler?) I’ve got to say that you do a damn good job of the pointy moral bankruptcy thing.
That’s why all the stalky trolls hate you, but it’s also why the rest of us keep coming back.
Meanwhile, Karl, Dan, Darleen, and the rest of the guest posters are doing a bang-up job here, too. This has always been one of my favorite blogs, and it probably always will be.
That said, I denounce everyone here for their racist/sexist/speciesist/planetist/solar-systemist posts and/or comments, including myself. We should all be ashamed for just about everything.
Lisa:
Can you please cite any sort of proposed “speech code” seriously proposed by the right from that time period? I know you said it didn’t happen, but I don’t remember any politician on the rightward side of the spectrum calling for overt restrictions on speech.
And how would you react to the “paranoia” some of us are feeling regarding the resurrection of the “Fairness Doctrine,” especially when it’s aimed at talk radio, a format that leftists have failed at dominating (even though they’ve dominated other media) or competing at since the policy was`abandoned?
Democrats have been trying to bring that back for a while, now. Should those of us on the other side feel that free speech is “in danger” if a format that makes money for private investors is replaced with one where failed Air America hosts are given a government-mandated rebuttal show to counter an actual money maker?
I would say that race matters as long as there is an institutionalized effort to make it matter, i.e. affirmative action.
If universities and governmental bodies ceased race-based preferencing tomorrow, racism would die a quicker and quieter death than it will if we keep it on institutionalized life support.
the Chicago tribune got it perfectly: whitey does not equal nigger
being a smug white person, I know that. As for Ms. Obama, she’s sexy. I prefer to talk about her legs and purple dress she had on the other night. If she said ‘whitey’ once or twice that match my saying ‘nigger’ once or twice too. I really don’t care as to her ‘race’ or ‘racial’ statements.
and Bravo, i think we gots a *
racist* in the woodshed. Nishi needs to read Thomas Sowell in his understanding essay about the phony IQ arguments for the racism she expounds. IQs can be affected by education, are in flux due to social imputs, etc. For instance recently off-the-boat Jews from Europe were tested and found to be wanting as to IQ, same with the other non-English speakers entering the nation about 1900 plus or minus a few decades. The Bell Curve book since debunked was her model of an argument for the racism epidemic in places like Beijing and Tokyo.And let’s give the USA a pat on the back: We, due to great struggle, are becoming one of the least racist nations on earth. And even the late William F. Buckley gives credit where credit is due to the liberal left side of the debate. “That’s an argument I am glad we lost.” he said (paraphrased). Obama’s presidential campaign is proof of that.
moving on….
WTF is it with people who don’t get that they’re not welcome? When the owner of the site bans your ass, it’s not a sign that you should work harder to get around the ban, it’s a sign you’re not fucking welcome.
Leave aside for the moment the nipple hardening outrage Jill and her band of serially-indignant feminist scolds would undergo were…
Given that this is supposed to be a defense, one would have hoped that you would have risen to not begin the post with this language. If Jill hadn’t convinced me, one of the unknown numbers of lurking feminists out there, opening up with this surely shows your true colors.
Thank you, sir, for making it clear who you are.
“Comment by Rob Crawford on 6/18 @ 4:34 am #
WTF is it with people who don’t get that they’re not welcome?”
Reactionary leftists are assholes, tht’s why.
“Thank you, sir, for making it clear who you are.”
See what I mean?
rob, i was unblocked. But since I am not using profanities as argument as a lot of you on the ‘right-side’ were. Besides without the very few and brave counterarguments, the hits here would flag big time.
Seems this site’s been cleaned up of late. But I don’t really have time anyway.
Given that this is supposed to be a defense, one would have hoped that you would have risen to not begin the post with this language. If Jill hadn’t convinced me, one of the unknown numbers of lurking feminists out there, opening up with this surely shows your true colors.
Aliem, you might want to look through the archives around here for posts involving “nipple hardening”. To quote a famous Spainiard, “I do not think it means what you think it means.”
Oh, and I read Kristen’s hysterics in the comments over there and I never knew “scold” was not gender-neutral. Moreover, I didn’t realize it could send uberfeminists into a frenzy.
Hey, you learn something new…..
I called an albino “whitey” once.
If Wes Craven could capture the pink-eyed rage that was coming at me in that colorless whirling dervish of arms and legs he’d have a gawddammed blawkbustuh!
Let’s not forget that Jill is stunningly attractive compared to her Feministe/Feminst peers while Jeff is only slightly more handsome than Karl and Dan C. Side out: Jill
Jeff’s going to either have to start man-scaping and using quality skincare products or convince Karl and Dan to drink more, exercise less, and take up smoking before he’ll close the photogenicity gap.
The Feministe crowd has totally fixated on “Jeff’s” use of the word whitey, and what a silly choice of a word that is, etc. etc. Not one of them seems to have figured out that was the word the Trib piece you were critquing used, or even that you were critiqueing a Trib piece. You use of nipple hardening as a sexist slur is rapidly gaining momentum, as seen above at comment 69, apparently progressive men don’t get hard nipples.
You probably ought to hold off on the Latin until you’ve learned English.
It’s not “betweengroup differences” that’s in dispute; it’s what “race” means. Are Ashkenazis a “race”? Are black Africans different from whites because of some mythical and poorly-defined concept called “race”, or are they different because they didn’t mix much with whites for many, many thousands of years?
Please enlighten us, O master of genetics. And try to use English; you need the practise.
Sean M: The Fairness Doctrine is pretty horrible. I don’t think you should mess around with what people want to listen to, even if it is errant crankery or a crashing bore. It is a bad idea because it forces people to listen to stuff they don’t want to listen to. And broadcasters have to play crap they don’t want to play. It is sort of a crappy fix for an issue that stems more from media consolidation than anything else. When you have a few companies that run a lot of radio stations, they are not going to be all that experimental. They are going to go with the big money makers – not try to build little niche local audences (not as much as they used to). The big money makers are conservative talk show hosts. There is no value judgement attached to that. It is what it is. Too bad if Air America doesn’t appeal to the masses – it is fucking boring anyway. I tried to take a listen to it when they first launched but I was immediately bored to tears. I am not the kind of person who can listen to anyone ranting all day about people they disagree with anyway. That gets old even if you are a good talk radio host. But they were just horrible. The only one who was interesting is that guy Mike Malloy – and that is because he is crazier than a bedbug.
I am not even sure that anything can or should be done about media consolidation. Most radio is really boring and low quality, in my opinion. It is a bunch of horrible heavily rotated rap, country, and top 40 stuff that just sucks (with a few “oldies” stations thrown in that are semi tolerable for an hour or so) with generic and annoying dj’s (thank god for iPods and downloadable books on mp3 – I haven’t listened to anything but NPR for the news in years). Talk radio in my opinion is pretty much the same. You have Rush and about a zillion wannabes. They are all interchangable and no one says anything interesting or original. However, radio is doing what we seem to want. We want generic and annoying pop/country/rap and we want one or two decent talk radio hosts then an entire day of boring clones. That is a problem that is more about our horrible taste rather than an issue of fairness.
I remember tuning into AA’s first day and listening to Randi Rhodes shout down Ralph Nader for having the audacity to run for President, bleating until Nader finally hung up on her. That was hilarious. Since then, not so much.
Oh, and satellite radio is the shiznit.
BTW: We are settling into a pattern:
1. White liberal person writes article about how stupid white people are/how noble black people are for suffering the idiocy of white people/how white people should just shut the fuck up about [insert greivance here].
2. Jeff/Karl/Dan writes a scathing analysis condemning the article as a steaming pile of condescension and shit. And isn’t this just typical of the goddamned left? And black people need to stop calling people whitey.
3. Jill/Amanda/Pam writes an analysis of the analysis positing that Jeff/Dan/Karl is just a knuckledragger who just wants to call people niggers because George Jefferson got to say honkey on TV.
4. Jeff/Karl/Dan writes angry rebuttal, worriedly ponders the demise of free speech and muses unhappily about leftists.
Rinse, repeat.
Lisa, your comment ignores the more colorful aspects of radio. Here, in Detroit (outskrits now), I can hear a liberal slant (if not full horizontal bop) on just about every station BUT the one that carries Rush. And, if I (mistakenly) tune in between 5 and 7 pm, even that station turns rather liberal.
I just get such a kick out of people believing that the airwaves are controlled by conservatives, when – in reality – we’re talking about a handful of personalities, few of which reach the entire country. Rush, Sean Hannity, and Mark Levin are the sum total for me (no, I don’t listen to them all.)
My husband listens to sports radio a lot, and often he has to turn it off when they get on their liberal rants.
And, Jeff, your post was most excellent. Wish I had seen it last night, but I was reading a book. That’ll teach me.
#79: I am thinking about getting XM or Sirius Pablo. Which one do you have? I think I remember reading that they merged or were thinking about merging.
I sometimes listen to SomaFm online. They have some good stations. I often listen to Pandora online – that music genome thing where you customize your radio stations.
Race is almost myth. In that there is no perfect dividing line, there is tremendous variability in the genetic flow between populations based on geography, insularity of community, and so forth. But racet isn’t melanin deep. The divisions into rough categories aren’t false, and have utility, but there is crossover and blending of genes within and among populations.
Bottom line, individuality trumps all.
rinse, repeat
Lisa, sysiphean struggle of free speech must be good for SOMETHING.
I really like my Sirius, Lisa. Channel 22 First Wave is my favorite channel, followed closely by Punk 29. It came with the car for a year, and even though my commute is like 5 minutes–maybe double that if I hit the lights wrong–I re-upped when it ran out.
#81: I remember when they had lots of different people with different schticks like Art Bell or Tom Lykis (not sure if I spelled that right). But when I am in any town and see some billboard for the local AM radio lineup it is pretty standard: Limbaugh and then a bunch of Fox News hosts moonlighting on radio, then a bunch of Rush or Hannity clones.
It is great if you have something different. Maybe the local audience has their niche favorites that are not clones of the big national guys. But it appears that ClearChannel and Infinity have a formula for talk and it generally is heavily conservative. Because that is who listens. Like I said, I don’t see anything wrong with it. They are going to go for the largest base of listeners. It is not my thing. But I suppose a guy who is in and out of his vehicle all day is not going to find it boring.
#84: lol.
Hi Sara!
I’ve got XM, though I think it’s probably 6 of one half a dozen of the other for most of the programming. The deciding factor for me was that XM carries every baseball game, which was attractive to me when I was traveling extensively. And the merger has finally been approved, so there you go.
Jim – sounds like you also dig the old Manchester punk and new wave stuff? I think I do need to get sattelite just to be able to listen to stuff like the Alarm and Joy Division all day. Woot woot.
#88: Thanks.
Is it just my radio’s poor reception, or has Rush started ending his sentences with a kind of spitting sound like Sylvester the Cat?
From comments over there:
Cunt carries the baggage of the patriarchal denigration of women? Well, I’m just a-wondering who’s doing the carrying. I’m thinking the Ladies of Perpetual Outrage. If it weren’t for feminist studies – who would give two thoughts about which derogatory words were thrown in your direction?
It seems to me that the thrust of Jeff’s comment in the Trib piece is the inordinate amount of historical and politically correct definitional value that is attached to words as opposed to real race conversation which would encompass the length and breadth of the topic.
We should be at a point where the entire concept of institutionalized racism is rejected and buried. That moves us along to dealing with individual racism/sexism/other ‘isms where the intention of the use of the word is more important than the word itself and all of it’s perceived historical baggage.
Even at the corporate level individualized biases are going to be the stalking horse. Each individual becomes responsible for their use of any “identity word” and then becomes beholden to defend their intention in its use. We waste an enormous amount of psychological lucre jumping up and down at the words themselves and “imputing” intention where it may not exist (see Allen – R-VA, “macaca.”)
Many of my dark skinned Portuguese relatives dealt with being called “Portagees.” Sometimes it was a term of affection, sometimes not. While the N-word coming from a white person is rarely used with any “affection” it hasn’t stopped blacks from adopting it as some sort of ironic affectation that manages to outrage prominent blacks.
My son has a diverse and eclectic group of friends which include two black guys, a couple of Jewish souls and an Arab. They are the most politically incorrect group I have ever known. One of the Jewish kids is constantly broke despite having a good job. He’ll be frequently called “the worst Jew ever.” My son once told one of black friends during an argument, “don’t make me get my lynchin’ rope!” His friend replied, “Before that happens, honky, the brothers will be over to murder you in your sleep and take your HD TV!.”
And then they laugh!
Bottom line, historical victimization means nothing if someone intendsto use the word “whitey” to denigrate another person. Thus are they left to defend the intention. Free speech becomes its own barrier to racism in the light of discourse rather than breathless, sermonizing declarations of rethopugh plain meaning.
Remember: Never be niggardly in your defenses of free speech.
I chose XM because at the time, they carried all of the Big 10 football and basketball games. Then, we got the Big 10 TV network, and I still had to go sit in my car and listen to the Illini games on the radio, because those TV asshats are in some kind of dispute with my cable provider. Fuckers.
Remember: Never be niggardly in your defenses of free speech.
I love you for that.
Most radio is really boring and low quality, in my opinion.
I haven’t had the radio on in a couple of years, probably (I think I fired up the wind-up disaster radio when the power was out a few winters ago).
Over-the-air radio and television will be joining the telegraph and the semaphore in the Old Communications Medium Home within a couple of decades, at most — widespread deployment of fiber to the home will be the last straw.
That aside, it’s amusing to see how exercised liberals get over Rush Limbaugh and his ilk. They just can’t STAND to see someone going off TEH NARRATIV!!!1!.
“Rethought plain meaning.” editing idiot.
And even though everyone seems to be playing well together momentarily, surely the racist sexist homophobic aspects of your bad self are inevitably going to be slowly revealed, like peeling the layers of an onion. As such, consider yourselves denounced with a blanket condemnation.
Anyone care to guess which is which? See, that isn’t too hard
The one that you personally don’t like?
Nope, not hard at all.
All we have to do is make sure to never say anything that you, PERSONALLY, find offensive. It’s all about you. Other people’s feelings of outrage or hurt don’t count at all.
The narcissism is breathtaking.
“Never be niggardly with your defenses of free speech.”
I’m ashamed to say that English is my first language (which might come as a shock to those who have been reading my barely coherent rants over the years.)
DING, DING, DING, DING! We have a weiner!
Either one of those words could be used as a mortal insult without any racial/sexual subtext! Only by applying a created template of accumulated identity outrage do we end up with “value” discussions about the words themselves.
Assholes! :-)
Cunt carries the baggage of the patriarchal denigration of women?
Yeah, that’s why on Vagina Day, female audiences worshiping at the Holy Play, The Vagina Monologues, are lead in resounding chants of “cunt cunt cunt!”
#98: Nothing as bracing as an early morning denouncement.
That aside, it’s amusing to see how exercised liberals get over Rush Limbaugh and his ilk. They just can’t STAND to see someone going off TEH NARRATIV!!!1!.
They don’t feel relevant without a CAUSE™.
I’m ashamed to say that English is my first language
There is absolutely no evidence of this being the case on the record.
Yeah, that’s why on Vagina Day, female audiences worshiping at the Holy Play, The Vagina Monologues, are lead in resounding chants of “cunt cunt cunt!â€Â
Sounds empowering and liberating!
#102: Yeah, that’s why on Vagina Day, female audiences worshiping at the Holy Play, The Vagina Monologues, are lead in resounding chants of “cunt cunt cunt!â€Â
That sounds awesome.
How did I miss this “Vagina Day” holiday? I would love to stick that on my calendar “Out – Observing Vagina Day”.
Is there also a Penis Day?
Sounds empowering and liberating!
Also it “raises awareness”!
What the fuck does that mean, anyway?
I guess “raising awareness” is a whole lot easier than actually doing something, eh?
The “racial†characteristics arose in response to the environment people lived in… much as gypsy moths change.
wow, darleen is a Lamarckian.
figgures.
i guess ill have to prepare a little tutorial on race and theoretical population genetics.
oh wait!
if i use the word “theory” u guyz wont believe in what it say, right? like ToE?
the Bell Curve debunked? since when?
Is there also a Penis Day?
No, it’s Castration Day!
wow, darleen is a Lamarckian.
You don’t even know what that word means, tardgirl.
I guess “raising awareness†is a whole lot easier than actually doing something, eh?
I got a rise in awareness during the bra burnings!
Comment by Lisa on 6/18 @ 6:30 am #
Art Bell is still around, Leykis, too. Though Leykis got way too nasty long ago for my taste.
My all time fave is Dennis Prager. Which is funny how Jill absolutely hates the man (see her post previous to her “let’s slander JeffG” one).
Jill is nothing if not predictably a typical white feminist girl.
Is there also a Penis Day?
There could be. How’s the 7th?
#108: Ha, Hollywood is really good for having parties to “raise awareness”. I talked to a friend the other day who lives in Hancock Park near Hollywood and she was on her way to a party to “raise awareness” about the situation in the Sudan. Translation: Great gowns would be worn; expensive drinks would be consumed; a few lines of blow would be descretely snorted; some ideas for sitcoms would be pitched to drunken tv execs; and someone might briefly babble about Darfur.
That was clearly harassment.
Is there also a Penis Day?
Every day is Penis Day. Because of teh Patriarchy.
Hancock Park near Hollywood
Isn’t that where you can get a quick “bologna sandwich” for 10 bucks over by the maintenance shed?
#115 Lisa:
Ha! Is there a more prominent group of “important” people so completely engaged in the utterly futile pursuit of topical relevancy?
Isn’t that where you can get a quick “bologna sandwich†for 10 bucks over by the maintenance shed?
It depends if she knows the difference between lunch and a bologna sandwich!
I used to kind of like Dennis Prager myself, Darleen. He was so nice, but very clever and succinct. He was like the Bill Cosby of conservative commentary. He was not mean or ill-mannered. But he could really be sharp and cut right to he heart of things. Obviously, his opinions pissed me off many times, but he was still a pleasure to listen to (I would read his columns sometimes too – I still catch them every once in a while).
I never listen anymore, but it is nice to know that those guys are still around.
Ha, Hollywood is really good for having parties to “raise awarenessâ€Â.
Yep. What it really means is “I’m going to pretend to care about this problem to get your attention, but actually it’s all about me. LOOK AT ME! LOOK AT ME!”.
nishi
Everytime you post you just give more evidence of your immaturity.
Off to teach… back later.
Yep. What it really means is “I’m going to pretend to care about this problem to get your attention, but actually it’s all about me. LOOK AT ME! LOOK AT ME!â€Â.
If they get naked I’ll look(while listening to my iPOD). PETA’s good for that a couple of times a year.
107 Lisa
Check out your local college campus on Valentines day … the group of Awakened Womyn Warriors will be passing out vulva lollipops, “all men are potential rapists” flyers and little dashboard statues of Eve Ensler.
More levies failing in Illinois. WHY DOES OBAMA HATE WHITE RIVER PEOPLE?!?!
WHY DOES OBAMA HATE WHITE RIVER PEOPLE?!?!
They didn’t vote for him! Payback’s a bitch!
Week of July 6 – 12
Sugartits Sunday
Myocardium Monday
Tibia Tuesday
Windpipe Wednesday
Thymus Thurday
Fanny Friday
? Saturday /hair appt.
Well mostly that week looks bad – Although I might could aqueeze you in on the 12th. And I mean squeeze.
That last part was wrong.
And on Steak and Blowjob day? Nuttin.
#129: Laughs hysterically!!!
Cunt carries the baggage of the patriarchal denigration of women?
Yeah, that’s why on Vagina Day, female audiences worshiping at the Holy Play, The Vagina Monologues, are lead in resounding chants of “cunt cunt cunt!â€Â
Yes, I suppose it’s the feminist equivalent of young blacks calling each other niggaz.
So, Cunts, what’s up?
Pablo, it’s actually Steak and Knobber Day!
SarahW – Kegel squeezes ? ;-)
“Race” has turned into a Humpty Dumpty word — “…it means exactly what I want it to mean, neither more nor less!”
It was originally the top level of the social hierarchy: individual, family, sept, clan, tribe, nation, race. (Not every upper-level group makes all the distinctions.) As you go up the ladder, both genetic and social interrelatedness becomes more diffuse, but never reaches the point of irrelevance. American Indians still use it that way in their organizational naming — the Cherokee Nation consists of several tribes, and is part of the “red” or “Indian race”.
Conservatives, being traditionalists, tend strongly to use it, if at all, in the original sense, with some spectacular exceptions. In the case of modern Proggs, it appears to mean “American blacks,” with nobody else entitled to a look-in. That by default tends to emphasize the genetic component, and since that’s mostly faux it obscures rather than clarifying the “debate”.
Regards,
Ric
Consider yourself denounced too, JD
Race does make a handy club though, you gotta admit.
Sdferr – I guess you could say that, for the people that do not actually want to have the “difficult discussions” about race that they claim we all need to have.
Exactly.
“It’s a losing battle, Aldo. Eventually you tire of fighting. Trust me.”
I have been fighting (literally) and I am tired too. That does not mean I will EVER give up on ANYTHING worth fighting for.
I hope that you will continue, Jeff, since you are an eloquent voice opposing intellectual decay (and those that would hurry it along).
Huzzahs and well dones, Major J.
Cunt carries the baggage
sounds like a Bing Crosby vacation.
well..maybe we should do this up right…Jeff has done a lot of good work on this already.
SarahW is right in a way, but just in the US. the biological basis of race is diffused by our culture.
But in the third world, an particularily in sub-saharan africa, where functional democracies and capitalist societies simply cant run without a certain population percentage of engineers, doctors, lawyers, politicians, etc, that 15 point IQ gap is significant, and made more significant by brain drain of local talent to greener pastures.
the inordinate amount of historical and politically correct definitional value that is attached to words as opposed to real race conversation which would encompass the length and breadth of the topic.
BBH, excellent.
words about race or what Jeff calls “racialism” i think are very different from the biological basis of race.
Although I might could aqueeze you in on the 12th. And I mean squeeze.
I’ll go ahead and block out 3 minutes on the 12th Sarah.
um…id like Jeff to maybe take the reins on this if and when he has time and interest.
i read all the old links, with his discussion with sailor…but i think it is kindof newly relevent, given that Obama has initiated a national discussion on race of sorts.
I have a request: that you do it in English. That pidgin you normally speak isn’t sufficient for…well, anything, other than griefing. But you already knew that.
Screw “biological basis of race”; what’s the genetic basis? Do try to be specific. And again, my request is that you do it in English.
I predict in advance that it’ll be some scientific equivalent of Calvinball.
::jumps in way too late::
The Fairness Doctrine is pretty horrible…. It is a bad idea because it forces people to listen to stuff they don’t want to listen to.
Actually, it’s worse than that. It’s a bad idea because it puts the government in the business of evaluating political speech for content and then making pronouncements on it. It means that some knuckle-headed bureaucrats, accountable to no one and who cannot be fired, get to decide whether a station has provided enough “equal time to the other side” to fulfill the requirements of the law.
But it would never “force” anyone to listen to stuff they didn’t want to. People can turn off the radio just as before. It’s not as if the gubmint were mandating that talk radio be piped in to all shopping centers and schools.
Ultimately, what it does is force station owners to have to cope with a lot of stupid paperwork and bureaucratic snafus and entanglements, which makes hosting political talk radio Not Worth It.
So they drop the programs in favor of a music format or something politically neutral, like Sewing with Nancy.
Which is what the promoters of the Fairness Doctrine actually want: to force Rush and Sean and Glenn and Laura and Hugh and Dennis off the air entirely.
Followup question: if you insist that black Africans are a “race”, are redheads a “race”? Why or why not?
, where functional democracies and capitalist societies simply cant run without a certain population percentage of engineers, doctors, lawyers, politicians, etc, that 15 point IQ gap is significant, and made more significant by brain drain of local talent to greener pastures.
Couldn’t disagree with you more. You are saying that sub-Africa is simply too stupid to have a functional (Democratic and Capitalist) society?
It’s a wonder. We had a family friend – black man, wife died, he had to raise his 8 children by himself. Almost everyone of of those children were successful. Doctors, lawyers – one is a concert violinist. Sorry, he is not an anomoly.
And, it doesn’t take a genius to be a doctor or a lawyer. Matter of fact, most of the genius people I know -personally- don’t turn out all that great.
#144: You are always funny, but this morning you are in rare form. And Sarah is off the hook too. I have been spraying coffee on my monitor all morning.
Freaks.
I do not welcome our national monologue on race. I denounce myself.
Just curious, where is this “Obama’s America’ of which you write? I’ve never been there.
Nishi, you are totally channeling Cecil Rhodes. I thought it was pretty established that race is definitely a social construct, especially after the whole human genome project thingie. Our differences are really minor. You are crazier than a bedbug in the month of June, girl.
Just curious, where is this “Obama’s America’ of which you write? I’ve never been there.
He doesn’t want to talk about race unless it helps him politically! As Rev. Wright correctly pointed out, “He’s a politician”!
#143: So you are telling me that post colonial mayhem/tribal wars, dictators, corruption, and general chaos are not the reasons why democracy is not flourishing in sub-Saharan Africa? It is because they are dumb niggers and don’t have enough engineers and physicists? Well fuck me. I guess the founding fathers (dumbassed farmers and lazy, shiftless writers and poets) just did it by dumb fucking luck.
She’s crawling out off a limb onto a twig. Pretty soon it’s 32’/sec/sec and splat, someone’s got to clean up the mess.
nishit decided to covered herself in her own feces and dance around screaming “LOOK AT ME LOOK AT ME !!!” again today.
Nishit – Is it your goal to beshat yourself, daily ?
Let me know when she hits terminal velocity!
“So you are telling me that post Roman mayhem/tribal wars, dictators, corruption, and general chaos are not the reasons why democracy is not flourishing in England?”*
*Comment found on early celtnet thread – circa 785AD
#159: Excellent.
JD, you might be right. There is some kind of weird “run around in a diaper screaming for attention” going on here. This is totally contradictory to the threads where she has been denouncing you all Bigots of Teh Highest Order. I am fascinated and repelled.
I know, Lisa, it’s like a car accident. You know you shouldn’t slow down and look, but you can’t help yourself.
Well, to be fair to nishi, she also has said we shouldn’t provide Africa with medical assistance, food, or, well, pretty much anything to save lives.
(And that’s why we called her a genocidaire. I happen to think the label fits pretty well.)
Nishi, time for teh ToE “bait and switch”, since you’ve been called out!
#163: I have seen PW regulars allude to Nishi’s streak of eugenocentricness in comment threads before, but I never actually witnessed it in its full and terrible glory until now.
Sgt. Troy Barlow: Conrad, you’ve washed your hands like ten times.
Pvt.Conrad Vig: Lord knows what kind of vermin live in the butt of a Dune Coon.
Chief Elgin: Why do you let this cracker hang around with you, man?
Sgt. Troy Barlow: He’s all right, man. He’s from a group home in Dallas. He’s got no high school.
Pvt Conrad Vig: Don’t tell people that.
Chief Elgin: I don’t care if he’s from Johannesburg. I don’t want to hear Dune Coon or Sand Nigger from him or anybody else.
Pvt Conrad Vig: Captain uses those terms.
Sgt. Troy Barlow: That’s not the point, Conrad. The point is that Towel Head and Camel Jockey are perfectly good substitutes.
Chief Elgin: Exactly!
(One of Hollywood’s rare moments of truth)
Hmmm… you might want to check into the context of her accusations of bigotry. Is it based on our criticism of her “faith”? Or is it based on our criticism of Obama?
Nishi’s a genetic determinist — she honestly believes that merely having the genes of someone who went to an Ivy League school are enough to get you through an Ivy League school. When I told her only a horribly stupid or gullible person would believe that, she called me a “Luddite”.
I believe that was Rev. Jeremiah Wright that initiated the national discussion on race.
I believe that was Rev. Jeremiah Wright that initiated the national discussion on race.
That’s right Pablo! It took a racist rant to actually get a conversation started. Obama would have gone on with his milque toast garbage if not for Rev. Wright!
It’s not as if the gubmint were mandating that talk radio be piped in to all shopping centers and schools.
Hillary was going to have TVs showing clips of government-approved child-development experts telling you how to parent installed in all waiting rooms. So while that’s not the case now, I’m finding it pretty easy to imagine.
She is always calling you guys homobigots and accusing you of being a Super Secret Cabal of Intelligent Design Proponents and crazed, Islam-hating Christian theocrats. Now that you mention it, I haven’t seen her say too much about race until now(possibly I just didn’t pay attention).
Interesting. I have to start paying more attention to her weird haiku looking posts. She is like Francis Galton – minus the towering intellect.
“she also has said we shouldn’t provide Africa with medical assistance, food, or, well, pretty much anything to save lives.”
that is so much uberbullshit.
i just said we should give condoms and birth control pills out with the mosquito nets and wells.
then u said i was a babykiller eugenicist for wanting to control triple digit population growth in Africa.
Hillary was going to have TVs showing clips of government-approved child-development experts telling you how to parent installed in all waiting rooms. So while that’s not the case now, I’m finding it pretty easy to imagine.
Kind of Orwellian, but you’re a sexist for pointing that out!
hmmmmm. OTOH my vet already has this kind of thing. I always wonder where they find the actors for that.
“My son has a diverse and eclectic group of friends which include two black guys, a couple of Jewish souls and an Arab. They are the most politically incorrect group I have ever known. One of the Jewish kids is constantly broke despite having a good job. He’ll be frequently called “the worst Jew ever.†My son once told one of black friends during an argument, “don’t make me get my lynchin’ rope!†His friend replied, “Before that happens, honky, the brothers will be over to murder you in your sleep and take your HD TV!.â€Â
And then they laugh!”
Hahahaha! This made me smile.. This is the way I remember my youth growing up in a poor, rcailly diverse neighborhood in the 60’s and 70’s before people got so serious and oversensitive.. Everyone riffing on each others stereotypes in fun.. We didnt know we were actually hating and oppressing each other..
Lisa,
To be sort of kind of fair to Nishmeister, I don’t know how often she really accuses people her of being all manner of evil, but she is ruthless towards the strawmen she battles who happen to share the same names as the commenters here. Past that, I don’t think she’s really ever had the experience to think through the actual real consequences of what she suggests. It’s more along the lines that she prides herself in doing one iteration of questioning the world and is convinced that she’s done. She hasn’t figured out that it’s turtles all the way down, so to speak.
BRD
haha, props to pablo.
but Obama’s candidacy actually initated the discussion. wright contributed.
i think this is wonderfully healthy for our country.
and i may be naive….but i think Jeff can make a difference.
Does someone have that thread bookmarked? Because that is not how I remember the exchange.
Unfortunately, I don’t. And I could be mis-remembering her statements. Perhaps I have it confused with some of her other arguments in favor of, well, eugenics.
i just said we should give condoms and birth control pills out with the mosquito nets and wells.
That is one way of describing it. It is not really in line with reality. Reality was that you were more concerned with birth control and abortion, I think that your meme on that one was that we created the chickens that were coming home to roost. It was all premised on the fact that some of our actions were saving lives, and you felt that they did not have anything better to do than reproduce.
Rob C and Carin – My nutshell synopsis is pretty much how I remember it. Contemporaneous comments by, well, practically everyone contradicted her rantings.
Not you, Rob. I meant Nishi’s version.
That sound you hear is pigeons coming home to roost. As Jeff says: situational irony.
#176: I see, Bravo. Thanks.
pigeons, chickens, WTD?
Lisa, i dont care if they hate Islam.
It is simple CSS behavior.
A CSS is a Culturally Stable Strategy.
I always say, yours is better for you, mine is better for me.
I do care that the theocons have destroyed the republican party by convolving the word conservative with xian values, like LIFE!, homophobia, IDT in science classes and the republican war on science.
I believe in the separation of church and state.
Apparently you haven’t been paying much attention to what the man has said. He sounds a lot more like Bill Cosby than Al Sharpton in many ways:
For all your complaining about Jill’s stereotyping of conservatives, you seem a lot more interested in stereotyping Obama’s views than honestly engaging them.
MMMmmmm, pigeons. Shallots, sage, butter, salt, pepper. On toast.
I remember that the “chickens coming home to roost” were people actually being born and managing to live longer due to our policies. Things like not having enough food or getting diseases in adulthood were the fault of US policies, because we had encouraged those Africans to reproduce and live past childhood in the first place.
Nishi, who are the “theocons” around here?
Yeah, well, how dare we think human lives have value! That’s just more of our imposing “xian values” on the world!
the Great Brown Hope of the republican party.
i like Jindal.
hes a good speaker, has alot of personal integrity, very bright.
i think he might even be the Obama for the Right.
but like O!, hes got flaws. if he signs this bill, the media will dig it up when he runs for president.
hes a charismatic catholic, and that faithhealing stuff will cause wrightstyle problems for him.
it will be funnie to see him run, and then the factions and tactics will completely flip.
#186: I would agree that the Republican party was a nicer place to be before Anita Bryant, Jerry Fallwell and Ralph “Creepy Eyes” Reed.
I do care that the theocons have destroyed the republican party by convolving the word conservative with xian values, like LIFE!, homophobia, IDT in science classes and the republican war on science.
This is a joke, right?
I wonder why nishtoon keeps touting a “great brown hope.”
Jorsh,
Got anything similiar from the period when Obama was collaborating with Ayers on the Chicago Annenberg Challenge? Any pictures of Obama actually attending an eighth grade graduation? Any cites to a speech given by Obama to a graduating class at eighth grade or high school level?
Just anything material at all to support the contention that this particular piece of drivel was more than another Axelrod rehash of a Deval Patrick imitation of Cosby.
You know – something that the man has done besides talking. Or arranging setasides for his wife’s employer in order to garner a nice fat raise for her.
“I believe in the separation of church and state.”
Lulz!!!!!!
Now if y’all will excuse me, it’s time for me to micromanage some souls.
Lisa,
Pandora is good, and check out Last.fm as well. It has an app you can use to upload your ipod’s history to your profile and it also works with Pandora (http://pandorafm.real-ity.com/login.php).
Maybee, i said it was imprudent to deliver a half century of feel-good life enhancing projects to africa, with never a coherent program for birth control education.
i maintain we should have delivered both.
now there is triple digit population growth in Africa, half the population is under 18, and do we think these young people with no future are going to feel some fabulous gratitude to us?
get a fuckin clue.
Nishidiot, do you realize how racist (and I’m reluctant to use that word unironically) calling Jindal “the Great Brown Hope” is?
This would be a better thread if it weren’t about the lolbot.
Roboc – it’s closer to parody. Except it’s not.
.
“#
Comment by alppuccino on 6/18 @ 8:12 am #
Although I might could aqueeze you in on the 12th. And I mean squeeze.
I’ll go ahead and block out 3 minutes on the 12th Sarah.”
That long?
But nishi, as you’re always telling us, “perception is reality”. We perceive you to be a racist genocidaire, so you must be.
Parroty, more like.
It is possible there is a Michelle Obama tape in which she rants (a la Wright)about white people in a hateful, vitriolic diatribe – but just doesn’t use the term – “whitey”. IMO she certainly has spoken negatively about the white race at some point in time. She wouldn’t have attended that church for 20 years and not have a negative perception of the white race. That church’s manifesto is to bring the white man down. For her and her husband to disavow any knowledge of that, and to imply they were never affected by it is dishonest in the least. She quite possibly has never said “whitey”. That, however, is not an indication of her true feelings about white people. And if there was a tape indicating her true feelings about white people, and those feelings are likened to the Rev. Wright or Rev Pfleger’s hatred, the word “whitey” would not need to be uttered for the point to be made.
Hm… It seems I may have argued them to a stop on the Feministe thread?
I wonder why nishtoon keeps touting a “great brown hope.â€Â
Yesterday, she was suggesting Jindal is a snake handler! I’m sure that was meant as a compliment.
Wait’ll they find out you’re a shill for Teh Patriarchy.
Heh.
I found the PERFECT description of nishi:
“Der Fuhrer, according to Mussolini, “was a gramophone with just seven tunes and once he had finished playing them he started all over again.â€Â
Jonah Goldberg
-Liberal Fascism
So you are telling me that post colonial mayhem/tribal wars, dictators, corruption, and general chaos are not the reasons why democracy is not flourishing in sub-Saharan Africa? It is because they are dumb niggers and don’t have enough engineers and physicists? Well fuck me. I guess the founding fathers (dumbassed farmers and lazy, shiftless writers and poets) just did it by dumb fucking luck.
well carin said it was because they were childish. ;)
Lisa, all things contribute. Colonialism was a great evil.
Dont be so touchy.
the founders had a lot of advantages over africans and indians and arabs.
sure america was a colony, but the founders were the same culture/race as the colonists.
the analogy should be between african blacks and native americans, not between africans and the founders.
amerindians didn’t do great against the colonists now did they?
Although I might could aqueeze you in on the 12th. And I mean squeeze.
I’ll go ahead and block out 3 minutes on the 12th Sarah.â€Â
That long?
2 1/2 minutes to finish the cigarette!
why is that racist?
the Great Brown Hope?
i dont understand.
please explain.
Ah, Jeff… Steven Den Beste gave up blogging about politics and reality because he, too, tired of the pushback. Why is it that leftists never tire of the battle? I, too, suffered battle fatigue over this kind of stuff and did the only sensible thing, I stopped reading leftist/socialist/fascist/liberal blogs. Cold turkey. Didn’t care what the other side had to say.
I mean: has nishi ever written a sensible/logical/coherent comment here? If so, I haven’t seen it (and, as per above, I don’t read her/its comments any more [is nishi a turing test, btw?])
Regarding novel writing: good luck. I’ve written five and a handful of screenplays. That’s the easy part. The tough part is getting any of the motherhumpers controlling the gate to let you through.
Actually, Jorsh, you miss the point — not surprising given that you’ve come over from Jill’s site.
It matters NOT what Obama says. “Obama’s America,” as I noted in that very comment from which you quote, refers to the state of race relations under the influence of his supporters and progressives in general. And Jill’s post, along with the Chicago Trib piece, have given us yet another couple of previews of what that dynamic will look like. Whitey offends you? Moron. How dare you act offended by a race-motivated slur! Why, that slur is not nearly so weighted with historical baggage as other racially motivated slurs, and therefore it is inauthentic of you to feel hurt. Moron moron moron! Real racial grievances go to eleven.
Beyond that, you can quote the pretty speeches. Me, I remember “typical white person” to describe his Granny just as he was tossing her under the wheels of the Lightworker Express.
A better analogy might be South Africa.
what is happening there now?
white flight, and breakdown of a good economy that was handed over intact.
Steven Den Beste gave up blogging about politics and reality because he, too, tired of the pushback.
that is not strictly true.
it was his health.
he wades into the fray occasionaly still, when he feels up to it.
well carin said it was because they were childish. ;)
I said it was childish to take handouts (from America or anywhere) and then complain about what you didn’t get. The welfare mentality, as applied to international aid, produces similar results.
better analogy might be South Africa.
what is happening there now?
white flight, and breakdown of a good economy that was handed over intact.
South Africa is a perfect example why you can’t rectify past racism with a new form of racism.
What about the Palestinians? Were they not handed over, intact, perfectly good greenhouses? And what did they do to them?
look, i guess im lacking something…i blame the auspergers.
i honestly dont understand why callin Jindal the Great Brown Hope of the republican party is racist.
the republican party needs diversity in leadership inorder to appeal to all Americans, and breakdown stereotypes.
the party needs to nuture and support talented people like Jindal.
What about the Palestinians?
strawman
u dont a response on that carin.
we are discussing race.
Five, more like.
When you find yourself in one, it is a wise and prudent decision to cease digging.
It is fascinating to see how they mull over the idea of an anti-protected group. It’s sort of like watching a mirror-universe version of anti-semetism or something.
Wtf is auspergers? Maybe some obscure German sausage?
South Africa – completely like what is happening in ,let’s say, Russia.
It seems to me that the thrust of Jeff’s comment in the Trib piece is the inordinate amount of historical and politically correct definitional value that is attached to words as opposed to real race conversation which would encompass the length and breadth of the topic.
Exactly. A lot of people are missing the point that Jeff’s concern, as usual, is with linguistics. He is not taking offense at the word “whitey” or trying to get permission to use the word “nigger”.
and Granny Smith apple abuse.
FRUITIST!!!
I denounce me.
the republican party needs diversity in leadership inorder to appeal to all Americans, and breakdown stereotypes.
Stereotypes like gun-toting, bible-thumping misogynists?
Is there more to the man than his skin color? Not according to you.
I see. “Obama’s America” doesn’t have anything to do with the views of Obama himself, but rather your perceptions of various people who might vote for him or write an editorial in a newspaper. I guess it would be fair to say that in John McCain’s America we can expect state-sponsored cross-burnings or some such. Truly the proggs cower in fear at the awesome might of your logic.
Just a style tip, the “under the bus” metaphor became cliche long ago.
and do we think these young people with no future are going to feel some fabulous gratitude to us?
get a fuckin clue.
I actually do have a clue. My son spent some time in Africa last summer working with young people. They did not see themselves to have no future, and they were actually quite fond of “us”.
Your idea that African nations can’t come up with a birth control program without us “teaching them” basically treats them as rubes. The idea that people in developing countries are sorry to have been born is a generalization I don’t agree with.
Wtf is auspergers?
It’s an excuse she uses when getting lost in her own bullshit!
The nishit, if I counted correctly, has referenced all 8 of her memes in this one thread. Bravo, idiot.
You know, “Fee Fees” has got to be the silliest sounding contraction I’ve heard in dog’s age.. Right up there with the near supremely asinine “Vajayjay”.. I’m just sayin..
ok, Lisa, lets drop IQ cuz that seems to be a charged issue.
can u accept that Africans have a significantly higher rate of inpopulation sickle cell anemia?
why is that do you suppose?
Jorsh – The correct usage is that Baracky threw his granny under the back of the bus.
Why is it the the feelings people like Jorsh always reference this great need for a national discussion on race, and then try to start the discussion by calling the other side racists?
The nishit, if I counted correctly, has referenced all 8 of her memes in this one thread. Bravo, idiot.
Second verse, same as the first…I’mmmm Henry the Eighth I am…
As progressivism moves forward, free speech will almost surely be murdered on the altar of political correctness  if only because that ploy rids progressives of the messy business of having to deal with what they consider unpleasant and untoward opposition to their ideas.
That’s the plan. Only certain “pre-approved” and vetted speech will be free.
See recent action of Canadian “human rights” tribunal against Maclean’s magazine and Mark Steyn for the model.
Here we go with the inflated construct of Obama riding his Granny dirty. Typical of White Man wagging political forked tongue! I’m calling out the Swedish Army. Virally inflated constructs and O! defamation will be repulsed. Your freebooting days of incendiarism are numbered, pal!
You’ve monkeyed your last narrative!
#231, Rob i just delineated a bunch of other stuff about Jindal besides his skin color.
thats not it.
why is callin him the Great Brown Hope of the repubs racist?
Hey! They’re lathering up the feel good about language machine over there! link
Best comment:
can u accept that Africans have a significantly higher rate of inpopulation sickle cell anemia?
why is that do you suppose?
cuz they don’t believe in transhumanism!
Because you’re reducing him to just his skin color.
Quoting ‘Bushfire’ at Feministe answering BRD: “I work from a paradigm of social justice that seeks to treat different people differently in order to achieve an outcome of equality. This paradigm recognizes that due to the different opportunities and experiences given to people by the dominant culture, people begin life on an unequal footing and would require different types of assistance (whether it be affirmative action, anti-harassment policies, marriage rights, scholarships,etc) in order to achieve the same end result as those people who were born with advantages.”
I think that this is a remarkably honest and forthright presentation of the program driving our political betters.
sickle cell anemia is a function of the shape of your red blood cells. Whether or not they’re “sickle shaped” and thus unable to carry the full component of hemoglobin/oxygen.
The African American population carries a gene for sickling.
“Africans have a significantly higher rate of inpopulation sickle cell anemia?
why is that do you suppose?”
Malaria
Sdferr – Isn’t Bushfire trying to mandate equality of opportunity by regulating outcomes?
nishi you are scaring my sperm. Can you not hear their silent screams?
bzzzzzt!
no-brain wins the prize.
sickle cell anemia gives resistance to malaria.
“I think that this is a remarkably honest and forthright presentation of the program driving our political betters.”
Actually, it’s a really, really succinct description of “progressive” racism.
Equality of outcome, as defined by me(Bushfire, in this case), is the pre-eminent value, or in reaching for it, virtue.
“…given to people…”
Makes me want to drag Wilfred Sellars out of his grave to say, ‘There is no given. How many times do I have to explain this to you people?”
“#
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 6/18 @ 10:34 am #
bzzzzzt!
no-brain wins the prize.
sickle cell anemia gives resistance to malaria.”
The handle is ‘N. O’Brain’ you retarded marmoset.
Can you imagine how difficult it is for Bushfire to make it through a day? Simply responding to “how are you?” would require them to make a group of assumption about the utterer. Isn’t it just easier to treat everyone exactly the same?
Nishi, you should read <a href=”http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2006/10/27/paglia/print.html”this<this excellent Salon interview with Camille Paglia. She is one more to add to the examples I provided at the beginning of this thread. Bobby Jindal is the prototypical “small businessman” type of Republican:
hmm..igtg
but this thread has potential.
sadly, i cannot comment at Feministe.
rob, one last thing….doesnt racialism have to have intent?
to me, great brown hope is just descriptive, not reductionalist or a slur.
JD, have you been denounced yet in this thread? I cannot remember, so, I denounce you! And the rest of you, consider yourselves denounced as well.
“Obama’s America” was a literary conceit — it stands in for the ascendancy of progressivism as a ruling imperative. Obama’s “actual” views he keeps carefully milquetoast for public consumption (and they are of course being strictly managed in any prepared speech), though his associations speak to those real views being somewhere left of mainstream, and colored by Alinsky, 20-years of BLT, and the boutique socialism and radicalism of his Hyde Park Radical Chic friends. By not imputing the kinds of views of the Trib and Jill to him, I was simply giving him the benefit of the doubt.
Now, how under McCain we can expect state-sponsered cross burnings, I have no idea, given that the Klan largely came from the rank of Democrats, and that anti-lynching laws were opposed by Progressives like Wilson.
I care not whether you cower at the awesome might of my logic. What I say stands, and you, naturally, have just proven me correct yet again: conservatives are, to your way of thinking, racist to the bone. You offer no proof of this naturally, because it is merely an article of faith to ignorant sheep like you. Whereas progressives, despite the mountain of evidence of their attempts to control speech (from speech zones, to hate speech legislation, to the redefining of “tolerance” to mean its exact opposite, to the Fairness Doctrine, etc), refuse to recognize in themselves the very characteristics that their policies thankfully expose.
Both the Trib and Jill — and now you — are working hard to try to make any kind of “conservative” contribution to a discussion on race de facto racist. To do so, you purposely misread my essays and misrepresent the arguments therein. You pluck bits and pieces from them to change the context, then you argue against the caricatures in your fevered half brain.
Oh, and a stylistic point: I didn’t use “bus.” I used “Lightworker Express” — which could just as easily be some futuristic corn-powered caravan. If you don’t understand the context of that particular allusion, do a search.
Beyond that, though, you giving me style tips is a lot like Jill giving a corn row seminar to the residents of BedSty.
Aldo, i like Jindal.
i just think it is ironic in the extreme that the Right may wind up having to defend him on parallel issues when he runs, as the analog of Obama….youth, inexperience, nutty religious affliation, skincolor, etc.
i think Jindal could develop cult status for the Right, a savior, a messiah.
K-lo certainly swoons over him at NRO.
What about the Palestinians?
strawman
u dont a response on that carin.
we are discussing race.
Do you mind explaining why Palestinian’s destruction of the greenhouses isn’t relevant? My point was – When an “intact” societal structure is handed over to another group, a group that didn’t “earn it”, so to speak, disaster is a probable outcome. THAT, and not innate IQ levels, explain South Africa.
You were the one who brought up (the strawman) idea that the failures in AFrica were a result of IQ. I disagreed with another example.
you giving me style tips is a lot like Jill giving a corn row seminar to the residents of BedSty.
/giggles
;)
carin, dur, the palis arent black.
Bobby Jindal is a good guy but sounds kinda slick these days as the designated Republican party’s great new hope.
I would hope melanin in the skin is never any kind of determinant of anyone’s value or worth.
While Barry Obambi plays to the result of 30 years of lousy public education and brainwashing in these here United States.
The “Lightworker Express” is the Amtrak 11:47 from Philadelphia to Washington.
Comment by nishizonoshinji on 6/18 @ 10:20 am #
ok, Lisa, lets drop IQ cuz that seems to be a charged issue.
can u accept that Africans have a significantly higher rate of inpopulation sickle cell anemia?
why is that do you suppose?
CArin, she shifted her bullshit!
Bravo Romeo Delta, that commenter must be a sock puppet from over here. I absolutlely refuse to believe that someone with that degree of coginitive dissonance (among other things) can successfully turn on a computer without electrocuting themselves.
And that has what to do with Carin’s point? Or are you back to your genetic essentialism?
“CArin, she shifted her bullshit!”
Naw, it’s just Record #4 on the gramaphone.
nish – who said they were? I guess they’re just another group of low IQ’s people. That’s the only explanation I can find for their lack of ability to use those greenhouses to their advantage.
Folks like Jorsh have no desire to have a discussion. They want to have a monologue where they point out that anyone that disagrees with them are racist racisty racists.
tongue in check on 270. forgot the tag.
BTW Jeff, can we PLEASE ditch nishi? It isn’t that she is dim-witted, dull, tiring, petty, trollish, and the rest. Becuase she is all that.
It’s because, well she’s HERE.
And that just sucks for us.
Uh-huh. Why do you think he’s a “hope”? Why were you, just last week, attacking Republicans for a lack of Congressmen with dark skin?
Why “Great Brown Hope”?
Folks like Jorsh have no desire to have a discussion. They want to have a monologue where they point out that anyone that disagrees with them are racist racisty racists.
Yeah, I liked the trite “state-sponsored cross-burnings” phrase. Original for a progg!
Well, duh. That’s just how the game is played, whitey.
Aldo, i like Jindal.
i just think it is ironic in the extreme that the Right may wind up having to defend him on parallel issues when he runs, as the analog of Obama….youth, inexperience, nutty religious affliation, skincolor, etc.
i think Jindal could develop cult status for the Right, a savior, a messiah.
K-lo certainly swoons over him at NRO.
I liked your earlier comment analagyzing Jindal to Obama. That is the kind of insight that I appreciate in your comments. But I think that you are jumping on his religion-driven ID comments to mischaracterize him as the vangaurd of a new generation of theocon Republicans. I believe he actually represents the type of Republicanism that Paglia describes. (You really should read the interview. She is very bright, and she makes good points on a variety of topics). I think it’s a contradiction in your thinking that you are willing to overlook religion-driven political statements by Obama. Somehow you can get past Obama’s religion to see other dimensions of his politics, but you cannot cut Jindal the same slack.
I
Yea
Thomas Sowell comments on this dialogue about race thing.
Nothing is more fraudulent than calls for a “dialogue on race.” Those who issue such calls are usually quick to cry “racism” at any frank criticism. They are almost invariably seeking a monologue on race, to which others are supposed to listen.
A (frickin’) men, dude.
http://www.townhall.com/Columnists/ThomasSowell/2008/04/08/random_thoughts
@ 264: “I work from a paradigm of social justice that seeks to treat different people differently in order to achieve an outcome of equality.
Now that’s what I’m talking about- Post modern social justice and relativized liberty for all. In order to achieve equality we must treat people differently. George Orwell would be so proud.
Will the real shredders of the constitution please stand up?
T. Sowell, a Man, dude, say it loud and say it proud.
More to the point, re: Jorsh. Typically, s/he’s changed the topic — refusing to engage in any meaningful way with my original argument. Thus far, his/her only contributions here have been to go after a literary conceit, which I’d already explained up thread, by way of the (rather unastounding) suggestion that perhaps not all “progressives” will follow the same suit as Jill, or the writers of the Trib article, or even Josh himself.
Yet there is ample evidence, in policy (or desired policy) that backs up my assertion that America under a progressive rule would seek to frame as “frank” a discussion on race that is not a discussion, as I said before, but rather a lecture (this, regardless of whether or not each individual progressive agrees with every talking point on race and grievance politics; they know how to fall in line, anyway, for the common good). Because conservatives are already racist (and inauthentic), and any whites that don’t back the progressive rule are the very “Whitey” that supposedly enacts and enables the institutionalized racism that people like Jorsh and Jill and the Trib writers pretend to fight against, even as they back policy and discourse that keeps such a dynamic as the status quo.
Here’s an idea, Jorsh: rebut my original argument. Then rebut my argument against Jill. Like Aliem before you, you look for excerpts or flashpoints at which to feign outrage, a maneuver that allows you to pretend it is then okay — nay, moral! — to ignore the argument proper. After all, if said argument comes from a racist sexist homophobe, why even dignify it?
And when you get to define anyone who disagrees with your positions as racist, sexist, homophobe, that sure does cull the herd, and gives you far less to have to rebut. Convenient, that.
Don’t you marvel at the confidence with which Bushfire can assert her conclusions all the while dragging behind a thousand uncertain assumptions, none of which may be picked up and examined in the harsh light of day?
TomB….hmmm…wat do u think Karl?
shud i go?
can u get another evilmuse that will deliver you this kind of readership and linkage?
lets face it….i bring out your brilliance Karl.
even if it is just to squash me.
other wise this echo chamber wud render you complacent and fat.
Aldo, cher, the religious nuttiness im referrin to isnt IDT, its faithhealing.
i dont think Paglia understands that Jindal is a “charismatic catholic”.
racism…pretend to fight against, even as they back policy and discourse that keeps such a dynamic as the status quo.
Ain’t it the truth.
You fight the good fight, Jeff, even though the majority of your “adversaries” won’t (can’t) get it.
(adios for the nonce to all the good people, everywhere)
TomB,
At least in past experience, Jeff tends to be pretty much the sole arbiter of who stays and goes. From what I gather, Nish hasn’t engaged in any of the really cardinal sins that merit ejection. Maybe some day she’ll even argue the question at hand. I’m pretty certain she’s come close once or twice, but I don’t recall any particulars.
BRD
Jeff, is it racist of me when i say “Jindal is the Great Brown Hope” of the republican party?
I’m guessing that no commenters over at Jill’s place (aside from ones coming from here) even bothered to acknowledge that Jill’s cartoon encapsulation of my post bears at least some scrutiny — or that the point I was clearly making had not fuck all to do with a desire to call anyone nigger.
I said in the comments to the earlier post that I am not offended by “whitey.” But that doesn’t change the fact that it can be used, with the proper intent, as a decidedly pointed racial slur, and so is every bit as “racist” as other racial slurs, even those that carry more historical baggage. Again, you don’t get to 400 years without those first 30 years of giving this kind of thing a pass.
Too, whether or not I’m offended by the word or not doesn’t much matter. What I argued was that I found it ironic that those who have based their policies on a “tolerance” that privileges the potential for taking offense have to have big brass balls to follow that up with the suggestion that, for some, it is moronic to be offended. Further, I noted in the comments that context and historical situatedness are merely marginalia that help to determine intent — which is why the use of “nigger” by blacks amongst themselves, if it is not racially loaded in the way of a slur, is different from the use of nigger invoked as a racial slur.
Again, this all boils down to intent — and had we not followed the incoherent post structural model of interpretation (the signifier carries the ghosts of all its potential signifieds — or, if you prefer, the sound you make can mean any number of the things it has meant or could mean, and I’ll decide which, regardless of what YOU meant by it) — we wouldn’t be having these ridiculous Trib articles, or have to suffer the Jill of Jorshs of the world, who, if pressed could find racism and sexism in a bowl of Raisin Bran.
Jorsh and aliem did not participate in anything even remotely resembling debate. They just dropped in to proclaim far and wide how they are our moral betters.
Nishi —
I didn’t take it that way, and I don’t think you intended it as such. I think you were using it pointedly, and not merely descriptively as you claim, but then, I don’t think from the context that you were suggesting anything racist by it.
Don’t ask her to go. It’s what she thrives on.
nishi- what was your point about Palistinians not being black?
Rasin Bran is undoubtedly racist.
All those raisins, being forced to co-exist with those flakes of corn. They should have a choice in the matter.
FREE THE RAISINS!!
Or bran. Doesn’t matter.
certainly i am willing to cut Jindal EXACTLY the same slack that i cut O on Wright and TUCC.
im fine with him being a charismatic catholic.
but the MSM won’t be.
shukran, Jeff.
u are the gold standard i measure my signalling by.
;)
I think she was using it quite purposefully in order to reduce Jindal to the color of his skin. She’s mentioned his policies what, once?, and his skin color half a dozen times on multiple threads. And, frankly, I think any approval she might show him is a cover for her eventual attack on him for his religion.
But, then, I’ve never seen anything from nishi that makes me want to give her a shred of credit. YMMV.
#207: She has been nothing but lovely and gracious (to black and white people alike). This scurrilous “whitey” rumor was Larry “Flowbee Haircut” Johnson’s attempt to negate the positive buzz she has been getting as the “black Jackie Kennedy”. He only understands black people who perform to stereotype: Shrill, angry, and woefully thick(Maxine Waters, Cynthia McKinney).
Though I am not shocked to see that most, if not all of this dog-whistling and sheer, unadulterated race madness has originated from my side of the aisle, I am still a little disappointed and a lot disgusted. I found myself in a shouting match with a couple of friends Monday night with me defending conservatives and the Republican party on race. Most of the conversations that conservative blogs have been having on the race aspect of this primary election have either speculation on what new turd Larry Johnson has shat out about the Obamas; repeating what Taylor Marsh or some nut at TalkLeft was shrieking; or chuckling over the egregious racebaiting that Democrats have been engaging in. The blunders that have been made have been largely out of dorkery or attempts to be cool and funny. I am not saying that there are not conservative racists, but they just haven’t been a factor. I feel like it is projection to have fits over some Fox calling Michelle Obama the “baby’s mama” (that was totally lame and deserved the scorn and ridicule it got) rather than focusing on very real racism emanating from the fetid, once lauded cesspools like No Quarter, Talk Left, and Taylor Marsh.com.
That’s quite a shift from calling him a “snake handler” just the other day.
Oh, that’s right. You were just predicting what the media will call him. *snort*
pointed is spot on.
the Great Brown Hope phrasing was supposed to recall that antique boxing match too.
and all the shades of meaning that carries with it.
Thank you, Lisa, for noticing.
calling him a “snake handlerâ€Â
that was from the Derb’s link at NRO.
they were makin fun.
i called him a faithhealer and a charismatic catholic.
arent those accurate descriptions?
Free the California Raisins
Jeff, like the turtles, it seems to be ‘power’ all the way down over there on Feministe.
Question: Is power something like E=MC2? A conversion princip?
Quite interesting that none of the traffic I’m getting is coming from Feministe. With the exception of a few folks, I’m guessing most of her readers deferred to her interpretation.
The very definition of echochambering sheephood.
di dont think Paglia understands that Jindal is a “charismatic catholicâ€Â.
She wasn’t writing about Jindal specifically. In fact, it was an old interview that may pre-date Jindal’s appearance on the national political radar. When I read your criticisms of Jindal I just free-associated to the Paglia interview, because she gets angry and impatient with her fellow Democrats who assume all Republicans are rich fat-cats. (I imagine that a lot of Democrats get a mental image of the Monopoly Man, with his tuxedo, top hat and monocle, whenever they think about Republicans). She insightfully notes that the true core of the Republican party is practical-minded small business people. I think some Democrats picture all Republicans as unreconstructed racists (eg see comments above). You see all Republicans as theocons, and you grab any bit of information that reinforces this stereotype. Jindal may be a religious nut, but that is not his political identity IMO. His political identity is that of the guy who runs the local dry-cleaning shop, not the guy who wants to use the government to enforce his religious dictates. If you want examples of people who want to base policy on their religious impulses I would suggest Dennis Kucinich’es airy-fairy New Age politics, or Obama’s ideas about picking Supreme Court justices who will craft rulings based on empathy for poor people rather than Constitutional law.
For those of you who have visited the feministe thread…has ANYONE over there understood (or, if you prefer, NOT PRETENDED NOT to understand) my argument: who it is with, what it entails, how it applies, etc?
Or have we really reached the progressive singularity? (For the record, Lisa may be on the left, but she is not a progressive, even if she’d like to hang on to the label).
Lisa, if you even try to fight that battle, you are in for a lot of pain. The default assumption is that Republicans/Conservatives are by default racist. They are the party that doesn’t care about people. The Democrats are the party that does care about people, so anything they do for the people is good, and of course they are the only ones who care about fighting for individual rights and fighting against racism.
The fact that many consider this a given means you would first have to show that these assumptions are not correct. I am not sure you can get the more die-hard types to sit still that long, but who knows? Most of the time I let the lefties blather away about how tolerant they are and how smart they are compared to evil Republicans (I am not exaggerating, I’ve sat through these kinds of circle-jerks), realizing that there is really not much I can do. Most revelations have to be sparked from within.
In their defense as to not wandring over here, BRD and Dan kept them pretty busy over there. B Moe & Edu Guy dropped in, as did I but BRD is doing 95% of the work. It almost seems like he’s getting somewhere, but then the smelling salts take effect and round they go again.
The core problem is that in a world where most people have bigger fish to fry on any given subject and a limited amount of attention they can pay without distracting from more pressing needs, lies are an effective strategy.
And since the left has pretty much openly dropped any ethical or moral standards (at least with regard to their own behavior), this has become a primary strategy for them.
Which means that, as much as we may WANT to talk with them, we really can’t. Sooner or later, it comes down to an intractable lie, and the discussion has to end.
Boy, I wish I had an answer to that one. People have tried to form “brokerages” for facts, but these have either been denounced as partisan or, in an attempt to appear fair, twisted themselves into pretzels trying not to point out the obvious.
There are individuals that one can certainly converse reasonably with, at least on some issues, but an open discussion will almost certainly degenerate rapidly until and unless the level of honesty and definitions of fact and truth on the left and right get within ICBM range of each other.
Jill’s behavior is a disappointment, but not a surprise. Her philosophy DEMANDS that Jeff be demonized, otherwise she’ll have to face the source of her outrage… and it isn’t Jeff. That’s simply not possible without questioning her philosophy, which would of course bring the whole house of cards tumbling down.
I’m totally sympathetic to Jeff’s dilemma here. The inability to actually productively have that discussion is like an itch you can’t scratch, because the consequences of current trends could be awfully ugly, and correcting it any way other than an intellectual reconciliation also look pretty ugly.
Like I said, sure wish I had an answer.
No Jeff, I think categorically not one has evinced understanding of your stance.
In evidence, here is Bushfire again in her latest post asking BRD : “Are you arguing on here all day to try and get us to understand that “whitey†is somewhat impolite? I think nobody has said it yet because it goes without saying.”
aldo, i totally agree that Jindal embodies the small businessman spirit of republicanism.
a “yeoman farmer” for modern times.
and he could be the savior of the republican party.
but forcing him into the dilemma of IDT in classrooms is cruel and wasteful.
shortsighted of the party.
he has vast potential. in 8 years he could be the Messiah for the repubs, leading them back into the promised land.
i suspect it is for nothing. this why the theocons get a rep for being stupid.
As per Jorsh/Bushfire/Geoduck/Frameone/et al, communication is reduced to the level of postmodern art, and license is granted to interpret same from carefully scripted rules designed to ensure the correct outcome is reached.
Once the consensus process affirms which narrative is dominant, perception, no matter how dumb, is expected to be treated as real.
An imagination gripped by grievance and a will to power. Whatta combo.
not the guy who wants to use the government to enforce his religious dictates.
that is exactly why this is cruel and stupid.
breathtakingly bad strategy.
sure, let Jindal get tarred with the IDT brush and screw him up for 2012.
Jeff, they almost always are playing some sort of game that involves holding up some white person for scorn wherein they can hold themselves up as deeply enlightened. They have annointed themselves the White Light Defenders of Teh Less Fortunate Races on all matters. It is kind of annoying because sometimes Actual NonWhites weigh in and say “hmmm, I am really not offended about [insert outrage here]” but they always get shouted down as unenlightened, browbeaten proles who are too brainwashed to recognize oppression when they see it.
i think the right has already lost this election, for a lot of reasons, cycles, the relative strengths of the candidates, current events.
if i was a republican strategist, id be teflonin bobby jindal and looking forward to 2012.
not sacrificing him on the alter of intelligent design.
Yeah Lisa, jeez, get with the program already, will ya?
I’m sorry to hear of your false consciousness, Lisa. Perhaps Merck can come up with a salve of some sort. That is, if they would stop working on PATRIARCHAL DRUGS LIKE VIAGRA!
When nishtoon accused me repeatedly of homophobia, I didn’t bother defending myself because I knew there was nothing to it. As nishtoon herself noted, I played it for laughs. Because of teh laughability.
This thread, in which I asked a question and left, kind of didn’t go that way. And I think that’s because, as untrue as the implication may have been in her case, it is far from laughable and couldn’t be dismissed the same way.
</pointed>
exactly why this is cruel and stupid.
breathtakingly bad strategy.
sure, let Jindal get tarred with the IDT brush and screw him up for 2012
You seem to be assuming that the national party is forcing Jindal to embrace ID. They probably don’t want to see it become an issue any more than you or I do. The problem is that Jindal is the governor of a bible-belt state, and (based on your links) he probably buys into the ID argument personally.
Jeff, I liked the comment that said she couldn’t read past your use of the word “scold.” It being non-gender neutral.
Nishi, which party controls the Louisiana Senate? Which party controls the Louisiana State Legislature? Hint: it ain’t the Republicans.
Contrary to what you think, this isn’t “breath-takingly bad strategy”; it’s a clear attempt to damage Jindal.
hahaha, yes Lisa nails it.
patronizing condescension.
heres the best part
unenlightened, browbeaten proles who are too brainwashed to recognize oppression when they see it.
nonono, u poor diverse types are too stupid to see it and too dumb to effectively defend ur sad selves, so we champions of the slurred and oppressed will magnaminously take it upon our bigselves to do so, since we are so infinitely morally superior, and btw far better intellectually equipped.
Oh, and you’re buying into it.
Carin —
Typical strategy. Pretend to be so put off by something that you simply can’t take the argument seriously. But conveniently forget the “fee fee” line in the original, which apparently you WERE able to get past without a hitch.
It’s our own fault for “empowering” this kind of anti-intellectualist nonsense that it is now used by supposed intellectuals. And why not? It’s so freaking easy that you have time to be an “intellectual” AND go to the latest gallery openings!
it’s a clear attempt to damage Jindal.
wow, i hadnt thought of that….well, rob, what should Jindal do in this situ?
Uh, is #324 the stupid sock puppeting again? Seriously, whoever’s posting fake comments under nishi’s name STOP IT. It’s dishonest, and God knows nishi brings teh stupid all on her own.
Besides, I left a reply in the comments that didn’t include the introductory framing, and so didn’t mention “scold” at all. No reason this person couldn’t answer that. Other then, you know, serial disingenuousness.
Nishi, as you say in your language, “igtg”. Have a good day everyone.
Hell if I know. Why are you asking me? Take it up with him or with the folks who passed the legislation in the first place.
A salve? Heh.
I have used salves that have been very enlightening. They were strawberry flavored and self-heating. I may or may not have seen the face of God and experienced a brief understanding of life, the universe, and everything.
veto or sign?
I’ll be in my bunk.
Lisa, I would truly and dearly love to see you make that argument on that blog, just to see the reaction. Unfortunately, they would probably consider it trolling and ban you or delete your comment.
i think he should veto.
looking to the future.
BRD: “And I do understand and appreciate the argument that “are just as victimized as those holding less powerâ€Â, but I also wonder if granting the power of control over language and the narrative isn’t trying to fix the first problem of racism by simply creating another power inequity.”
Reply to BRD from juju: “This sounds like a fear of revenge, the idea that the evils committed by whites will now be visited upon them. This seems to be the subtext of some rightwing Obama discussions.
Political correctness is not “reverse racismâ€Â. Referring to people by the name they choose for themselves is not communication oppression. And we are a long way away from traditionally marginalized groups “creating another power inequityâ€Â. This should go without says but, “creating another power inequity†is not the goal; this is not about one day seeing white men in chains. You got me chuckling again …”
Again, hell if I know. I’m not a politician. If it were me, I’d veto it. Or, since apparently the LA governor was line-item veto, if possible, I’d veto the bits that would actually implement it and turn it into a symbolic measure.
Though I am not shocked to see that most, if not all of this dog-whistling and sheer, unadulterated race madness has originated from my side of the aisle, I am still a little disappointed and a lot disgusted.
It’s interesting all this thing about who is Teh Racist. As you’ve noticed, here at P-dub (and at all of the big conservative blogs and talk radio), the criticisms of Obama and his cohort have not rested on racial stereotypes but rather on the content of the arguments they have presented (or tried to hide).
However, look at how the Left went after Condi and Colin Powell (and every other conservative of color): Aunt Jemima, Brown Sugar, House N*ggah. Ask Michelle Malkin about the explicitly racist and sexist crap that she gets.
I don’t understand how the supposed Champions of Racial Harmony go so easily for the racist and sexist slurs (and homophobic, if it comes to that).
I know there are plenty on the port side who don’t use (or want to use) racial slurs in reference to anybody. But it looks like there are far too many people who self-identify as Progressive in order to give themselves a pass on their own racism.
Not only do they figure that their political label makes them, by definition, immune from the unholy trio of racism, sexism, and homophobia, the project these ugly emotions onto their political opponents, thus demonstrating how incredibly sensitive they are.
Nice work if you can get it, I suppose.
I think part of it is back-slapping “gotcha’s.” They earn points with each by IDENTIFYING TEH PATRIARCHY. Much easier than trying to actually digest, analyze and argue the issues. Why not just parrot back the talking points of your feminist 101 class.
Douglas Adams recommends you use 42 dollops, Lisa.
— Oh, and it seems like the entire “debate” over at feministe has strayed from my original argument, or never quite found it to begin with.
Terry – All of those names, Jorsh/Bushfire/Geoduck/Frameone/, have spewed the same tired identity politics rhetoric every time I have seen them. frameone used to be the house fluffer over at O-Dub’s site.
#339: Exactly. Surprisingly enough – it is generally Pam or Amanda over at Pandagon who say “whoa – back that shit up, bitches. You are not exempt from being bitchslapped for calling people gooks, pickaninneys and mail order brides just because you have labeled yourself as a ‘progressive'”. I think Jill has been pretty good with calling that shit out as well. It is people like Markos and Aravosis (that ratbastard)who think because they are Really Important Progressives they are immune from criticism when they use misogyny and racism to slam conservatives.
nishi:
shut up.
I belatedly denounce myself, although I haven’t yet figured out how to be gender-neutral while treating members of the different genders differently to compsensate for historical disadvantages of people who aren’t the people I’m interacting with in the 21st century.
Politico: “Two Muslim women at Barack Obama’s rally in Detroit on Monday were barred from sitting behind the podium by campaign volunteers seeking to prevent the women’s headscarves from appearing in photographs or on television with the candidate.
The campaign has apologized to the women, both Obama supporters who said they felt betrayed by their treatment at the rally.”
Teh visuals, y’know.
#335: I did make a similar argument during a discussion about whether the sexism targeted at Hillary was worse than the racism targeted at Barack. There was some attempt to pin the whole mess on Repbublicans. I pointed out that this was the time for introspection not projection.
I was immediately condemned, denounced, and officially designated as a Concern Troll.
Concern Troll? Those are the ones with shocking pink hair and the hearts on their shirts, right?
#346: They apologized but they would do it again in a heartbeat. I wouldn’t want to be taking a picture with some chick in a hijab either, if I were trying to beat back the creeping narrative that I am a lightweight dilletante who thinks jihadists are kinda nifty. I might even punch one of them in the face and force her into an orange jumpsuit on stage for the photo op.
#348: Yes, but they have an expression of disquiet and unease, unlike a regular pink-haired keychain troll.
N. O’Brain,
She’s a griefer, telling her to “shut up” is her goal. I wouldn’t be surprised if it gave her the tingly leg to read your comment.
Better to just skip over.
I might even punch one of them in the face and force her into an orange jumpsuit on stage for the photo op.
Now you are talking!
I think that thump was thor hitting the floor in a dead faint.
#349!!!!
zomg!
that was mad funnie.
jindul is the wav of teh future
like a repub boby kennedee
see there both bobys…audio cortex
i cud even get tingly for that melanin snakehandler
because of dr pournelle and teh zygotes
lulz
Oh. I guess now is a good time to mention that the real reason for this post was to turn you on to Crack the Sky.
Way ahead of their time, that band.
Whereas Jill and her shrieking cohort are ideological dinosaurs who, but for the radicalist takeover of the Humanities, would be in the corner of a coffee shop somewhere, wrapped in tinfoil and taking umbrage at the shape of their biscotti.
Unless the biscotti was made by a minority/woman owned business, in which case they would be FIGHTING THE POWER!
Nah. They’d be post-feminists — and so shunned. Unless they somehow managed to bake the thing in the shape of a vulva, or else come up with an irony flavor.
By the way. I hope BRD, Dan, and whomever else is active over at feministe will provide an after action report.
Beware the ginger snaps.
http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/
‘Scold’ is not a gender neutral term
For them, political correctness means “somebody doesn’t want to let me be blatantly racist! omg!â€Â
Hatred of political correctness is grounded in deep bitterness that rich white men no longer have the right to call everyone all the horrible names that they want without anyone telling them to shut the fuck up, because they’re not that special.
“White trash†is racist….against black people.
but they make the word “rights†so abstract and divorced from the actual context that they change its meaning. Conservatives are already in the process of allowing some groups rights that others do not have. Conservatives want to allow some people the right to marry but not others, some people the right to health care but not others, some people the right to a good education and not others, and the list goes on.
Those are but a few of the real gems that I ran across in that thread. How do those people make it through the day?
where functional democracies and capitalist societies simply cant run without a certain population percentage of engineers, doctors, lawyers, politicians, etc, that 15 point IQ gap is significant, and made more significant by brain drain of local talent to greener pastures
No, the problem with Africa and most third world countries for that matter, is an unequal distribution of capitalism and individual freedom. That the 1st generation of all immigrant populations are vastly successful as compared to their stay back cousins proves this empirically.
immigrants contribute to brain drain SGT Ted.
there is a selection gradient on those who leave.
and im not sayin IQ is the sole cause.
it contributes.
Don’t worry, thor. That’s all fixed now. The Supreme Court says we have to buy ’em all new suits so that the juries don’t prejudge them.
I say we should give them all spots on American Idol first, too. Just to humanize them and all.
I might even punch one of them in the face and force her into an orange jumpsuit on stage for the photo op.
Ha ha ha ha ha! Hilarious.
I honestly don’t know why he lets that muslim rumor bother him so much, and I don’t know why many in the media feel so compelled to help him get rid of it. It isn’t a very large percentage of people that believe that rumor or care- certainly a smaller group than the 9/11 Truthers.
He should just let it go, really.
“By the way. I hope BRD, Dan, and whomever else is active over at feministe will provide an after action report.”
I just scanned the comments, and it actually, believe it or not, seems like a worthwhile conversation is happening. BRD is doing especially good work attempting to get to the core of the issue.
BRD is doing especially good work attempting to get to the core of the issue.
He is, but he’s fighting an uphill battle. Despite his best efforts, the people there can’t seem to get beyond the “but ‘whitey’ is not racist because blacks have historically been oppressed” mentality. Even when given the ‘what-if’ example about being a white kid in a black neighborhood being bullied, mistreated and shunned because of their color, the lame response is “well, it’s just kids”.
And this comment from Mnemosyne is pretty amazing:
“During the riots here in Los Angeles, you had black people specifically attacking stores run by Korean shopkeepers because of racial tensions. Frankly, people suck sometimes, and no one is a saint.”
Can’t bring him/herself to note that this is blatant racism on the part of rioting blacks. Nope, instead, we get the bland “people suck” and “no one is perfect” arguments.
This comment from Bushfire pretty much sums up the thinking over there:
“I do not believe that people of colour can be as racist as white people.”
BTW, this statement from the Thomas Sowell piece linked above perfectly captures my personal feelings about this election:
“Senator John McCain could never convince me to vote for him. Only Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama can cause me to vote for McCain.”
Men’s Warehouse is having a sale on tropical weight wools. The Wisdom of the Court Summer Clearance is here.
Besides, I left a reply in the comments that didn’t include the introductory framing, and so didn’t mention “scold†at all. No reason this person couldn’t answer that. Other then, you know, serial disingenuousness.
Jeff, I think she’s still have issues with the nipples….
I just scanned the comments, and it actually, believe it or not, seems like a worthwhile conversation is happening. BRD is doing especially good work attempting to get to the core of the issue.
Forget that! POC have acheived victimhood in perpetuum, and caucasians are racists ad infinituum. It seems that nothing can ever change according to what I’ve read at Feministe. As Jerry Seinfeld once said, “Yikes, good luck with all that”!
As it happens, I know at least one commenter who has referred to herself as a Person of Color, who finally said the one thing that makes me rest easy, and I quote:
But here I’ll say, it’s not right to call those having European ancestry “whiteyâ€Â.
I don’t know if that counts to anyone else, but that was the point I was trying to get some consensus on.
BRD, it’s not about words per se, it’s about respect. If the respect is equal, there is no racism. If two people respect each other, race will never be an issue. If race is an issue, then there was never any respect to begin with.
I was reading Jeff’s aggrieved musings on the state of our terrible predeliction for misunderstanding (sometimes deliberately) people and organizing lynch mobs to go after people who talk about things we don’t like and I was reminded of Coleman Silk from Roth’s “The Human Stain”.
There’s one lesson this all reinforces – people are reasonably good at deciding that putting babies on spikes (metaphorically speaking) is a bad thing. However, getting people to recognize that other people – even people they disagree with – don’t always want to put babies on spikes as well – that’s the difficult part.
Why do they hate us?
By us, I mean men and the 75% of women that don’t self-identify as feminists. Those people hate 87.5% of the country.
They only hate men who act like men. Men whose balls are currently residing in a mason jar somewhere are often deemed almost acceptable.
Dude, you are the master.
Oh. Is that racist?
Oh. Is that racist?
Aunt Tom?
Or is it Uncle Tomassina?
All those raisins, being forced to co-exist with those flakes of corn. They should have a choice in the matter.
FREE THE RAISINS!
It’s not just the California Raisins, dude.
How the hell does Fruit of the Loom get away with having only one black guy in the group? Not only that, they made him the PURPLE GRAPES. How stereotyped/racist is that?
Dude, you are the master.
Oh. Is that racist?
no, Juliette, its racialist.
get with program.
B Moe, you owe me a new shirt. I just spit up a mouthful of pasta reagarding the flesh colored bandages! Damn, that’s alot of baggage for Mike to be lugging around.
And Peggy McIntosh, wow. I can’t imagine taking one of her classes in college if you’re a dude. Automatic “F” for white male genitalia. Castration must be a pre-requisite!
#385: No, I knew a guy who took a law class lectured by Catherine McKinnon. I said “Boy is you crazeh?! You might as well cut your dick off and hand it to her as you walk in to class.” He said it ended up not being horrible at all and she turned out to be a pretty good lecturer.
True story. A women’s study teacher once tried to talk someone I know out of getting married. During class.
It is what it is.
Oh, and Lisa? I used to teach Roth’s Portnoy’s Complaint with Morrison’s Beloved in a course on literature, history, identity. This was pre-Human Stain.
You can read an excerpt of how I compared the two re: identity politics here, if you’re interested.
I hate that I missed that discussion. What an intriguing juxtaposition of works. There really is a interesting comparison to draw on how history is treated by each author. Very compelling stuff.
I am a huge Roth fan. I am hit and miss with Morrison, but “Beloved” knocked my socks off. You just gave me a reason to put off reading that wretched looking “Liberal Fascism” book that I, in some sort of dissociative fugue, ordered from Amazon. I have to dust off and read Portnoy and Beloved again (with your intriguing thesis in mind).
if I (as a white male) have read Morrison’s narrative, and I subsequently believe it to be more “true†than other narratives of slave history, is this narrative less “mine†than, say, that of a black woman who has yet to read it?
I am having lunch with some girlfriends on Sunday and I HAVE to pose this question to them. We will be arguing about that forever.
Yeah, that class was a blast to teach. Also taught Ragtime, In Cold Blood…there were others but I can’t recall them at the moment. I want to say there was a Tom Robbins in there — Another Roadside Attraction, maybe? — but it’s been nearly a decade since that particular honors sem.
Sometimes I miss it.
#390: You were probably good. I still treasure the experience of being present in an incredible spine tingling lecture or participating in a discussion that changed my worldview forever.
I know the politics and polemics of academia was a pain in your ass. Too bad that shit soured you on something you were clearly gifted at. I bet there more than one person out there who occasionally reminisces about how Prof. G altered his/her consciousness.
Its a damn shame.
A damn shame? It is a shame that is fucking and crying simultaneously.
I liked Beloved, too.
FWIW, I shared the Lisa description with the proto-Missus and she cracked up but royal. She’s putting up with myself a s atroglodyte as well.
In any case, having had some time from the 6 hour swedge on Feministe, would it have been at all reasonable to held for the scalp – that racism by any other name is still a bad move?
Thoughts?
“White trash” is racist–against blacks.
Very astute, JD.
Aunt Tom?
Yes?
A damn shame? It is a shame that is fucking and crying simultaneously.
It is indeed. I’ll bet Jeff was an awesome teacher.
So: what are we going to do about it?
I don’t mean Jeff’s situation in particular; I’ve seen similar things happen to others (often the ones I thought were the most talented).
Jeff sounds like he’s ready to chuck everything and grow turnips in Montana (or whatever it was). While I’m not that bereft of hope, I do think the academy is wrecked beyond repair, so much so that I’m not even shooting for a tenure-track job. Love the teaching, love the scholarship, hate the petty-assed politics.
Now there’s a discussion I’d like to see on this site. Preferably a very long discussion — months long, at least, maybe years.
Without nishi, by choice.
It’s a lost cause, BRD, precisely because they already know my argument and know I’m correct. They just willfully push it aside — or “bracket it”, if you will — so as not to trouble their own causes.
Because once they lose the cause, they lose their identities. Such are the consequences of the way they’ve decided to see the world and live in it.
I suspect I’ll be put back on the moderated comments list in short order – I commented on two threads without having to gain approval first.
“White trash†is racist–against blacks.
Very astute, JD.
Granted. But it still hurts bad if you are a little hillbilly boy. Even helps develop a sense of empathy to different colored trashes out there, that is why I don’t like hearing any shit about white privilege from a bunch of suburban fucking mall trash, if you know what I mean.
Just get used to the left calling you a failed academic, SBP. There are repercussions for not dumbing yourself down enough to join their club.
Seriously. Having been in on hirings, I can tell you that the academy seems, in the Humanities, at least, to court mediocrity. The mediocre tend to be good bureaucrats, concentrate on their own tiny niche, and not rock the boat much. And they follow the herd when it comes to the underlying assumptions of those running the asylum.
Hell, at some schools now you have to sign a “diversity pledge” before you’re hired.
Slartibartfast: “Wtf is auspergers?”
I think she meant “Asperger’s,” as in Asperger’s syndrome.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome
Basically, it is high-functioning autism. In function, it’s a cop-out, “black rage’s” second-cousin, a diagnosis in search of a condition.
It is a common excuse for someone on-line to be a far bigger asshole than they would dare dream of being within arm’s reach of their target. It is an attempt to free themselves of responsibility for their actions / words — they have “a condition,” it’s not *really* their fault.
Just get used to the left calling you a failed academic, SBP.
I’ve been called worse than that, trust me. However, I don’t think that their club is the only option. Remember, they owned all the media, too. That’s changing, and I see no reason why teaching and learning shouldn’t also change. In fact, I think it is changing. They just don’t see it coming, any more than the New York Times foresaw its circulation dropping by 99 44/100% (or whatever it is by now).
I’d love to discuss this some more at a later time. Bed now… eager students to face at oh-dark-hundred tomorrow — and they are indeed eager. It makes all the bullshit worth it. For now.
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Without nishi, by choice.
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kk
I know this conversation has moved on, but some people are just either looking for any excuse to be offended, or really are just too stupid to see the contradictions in their thinking.
A funny aside: One of my favorite bloggers had a very funny take on Obama’s Father’s Day speech and some of the angry response from black people who feel like it is racist pandering to criticize black people in a forum where (gasp) white people might hear him doing it:
But again, how can I rip the guy? What he said was true. Why is it okay for some field Negro talking shit on his blog to say the same thing, or a bunch of black folks at a barbecue to talk about the same thing and agree on that point? But Barack Obama, who is running for President, can’t state the obvious? Well, because he is running for President I guess, and everything he says will be scrutinized for political purposes. Everything he says will be viewed form a political context and this, of course, is what’s happening now. Poor “O” man, he just can’t win. Damned if he does damned if he doesn’t.
Boy, I sure hope that you black folks don’t think that if the “O” man wins he is going to be just our president. He will be the president of everybody in these divided states. And when he talks about shit that effects black folks, he won’t be able to go on a black radio station with a secret black frequency and say, “hey black folks, I have a message for you”. Nope, everybody is going to hear that shit. It’s called the information age. Let’s face it folks, we just can’t hide shit from white folks anymore. Hell, I bet some of them are reading this very post right now…..
Off-topicish but funny.
I’ll get a kick out of it the first time Danny Glover calls him an Uncle Tom, that’s for sure.
Oh. And speaking of cognitive sclerosis, maybe somebody can help this guy out a bit.