Back on May 31st, Excitable Andy wrote of of the proposed Iraq security pact:
50 long-term military bases. How is that not empire?
The answer was obvious then, but now even he admits the term is “excessive,” though he still views the pact as “something perilously close” to empire. One reason he offers is that “Muslims everywhere would regard such a large US presence as an affront.”
Yet a mere four paragraphs later, Andy dribbles this out:
What I fear is that the Bush administration and many neo-conservatives are claiming one thing, while planning for another; and after the last eight years, the trust level is low. I fear they want a permanent presence in Iraq to reassure Israel; and to pursue the option of war with Iran. I fear the bases are there to detain, contain or attack the regional Shiite power, Iran, and to reassure the regional Sunni powers that the US military will protect them.
Perhaps Sully forgot that the Sunnis are Muslims. Indeed, Sunnis are approximately 90% of the Muslim population worldwide. The Saudis have been pretty public in suggesting they prefer McCain over Obama because of his commitment to staying in Iraq and countering the spread of Iranian influence:
“They are worried about any deal the Democrats may cut with Iran,” said Henri Barkey, a foreign policy adviser to Obama and former State Department policy planner, who now heads the international relations department at Lehigh University in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania.
So Sully might want to work out how reassuring the Sunni powers of the region is an affront to Muslims everywhere.
Sully might also want to reflect on the fact that nations including Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Turkey, Egypt and Yemen have recently approached the UN to express interest in starting nuclear power programs — in part due to concerns about a future regional arms race stoked by Iran’s seeming interest in nuclear weapons. (Even developing nations have joined the West in support of the IAEA’s attempt to get Iran to clarify intelligence alleging that it secretly researched ways of making atom bombs.) It seems like there is a lot of interest among Muslim powers and non-Muslim powers in seeking to contain or deter Iran’s nuclear plans.
In fact, Sully’s main mancrush, Barack Obama told AIPAC last week:
“I will do everything in my power to prevent Iran from obtaining a nuclear weapon, everything in my power to prevent Iran from obtaining a nuclear weapon – everything.”
Indeed, Obama said he would always leave the military option on the table. He wants to get out of Iraq, but for the military option to be credible (and presumably the ultimate stick backing Obama’s promised tough diplomacy), he has spoken of having troops remain elsewhere in the region — where they will be the subject of complaint by the extremists, just as Osama bin Laden complained of US bases in Saudi Arabia. Extremists are very good at finding reasons to be affronted.
But hyperbolic claims of empire, elevating the complaints of extremists over the concerns of the rest of the world, conflating containment and attack are all forms of the incoherency Sully exhibits because his stated fear is of evil BushCo and evil neocons, rather than the threat of a nuclear Iran followed by a Mideast arms race.
Update: HotAir-lanche!
What he means, Karl, is that he’s opposed to it because it’s going to continue to provide a rationalization for Islamist violence. Because the best thing to do when fanatics threaten one is to roll over and show your belly. Who’s a good Sully? YOU’RE a good Sully! Does that feel good? Such a good little Sully-Wully!
““They are worried about any deal the Democrats may cut with Iran,†said Henri Barkey, a foreign policy adviser to Obama and former State Department policy planner,….”
Ah, the legacy of Jimmy Carter.
It just gives and gives and gives, a bequest of asshattery.
I saw Andy once in Provincetown all dressed up and acting. Clearly drunk and excited having his husband(wife?) grabbing his ass.
I like bases idea, we need more of them and in Saudi Arabia as well, for future, just in case to protect ruling dynasty.
Long live Saudi monarchy, for I am afraid of them having free elections with something like Hamas or radical Mullahs gaining power with our nuclear blessing already in the bag. http://hotair.com/archives/2008/06/10/helping-the-saudis-go-nuclear/
he has spoken of having troops remain elsewhere in the region
Karl, the next question to “butt dart goaltender” Sullivan would be, how does a re-deployment of troops differ in empire building than what we currently have. At least Iraq is logistically reasonable if using the military option if necessary. The Bush lied and it’s an illegal war, has become trite.
“…and after the last eight years, the trust level is low.”
– Assuming, as per usual, that anyone interested in the long term success on Iraq that our men and woman have sacrificed do much for, either wants, or needs, his faint of heart approbation.
– What I hear, is someone sliding his foot across the line into safer “I was against it before I was for it” territory, now that things are definately looking up. Sort of a HawkingChic you might call him.
– But we might as well get used to the past 7+ years of catterwalling, and vitriol of “the quagmire that is Iraq” turning mysteriously to bitching that we haven’t fixed the water and electricity fast enough, and the newly opened planed parenthood office in Baghdad isn’t getting enough funding.
– If you listen carefully, you can hear the sounds of canoes on the Left being discretely back paddled.
‘he’s opposed to it because it’s going to continue to provide a rationalization for Islamist violence’
Since Islamist enjoy hanging the homosexual, perhaps we should just let the violence inside America’s gates and let Teh Gay take care of the problem; 10 to 1 isn’t good odds for Sully but at least it will stop the his bitching about how he’s as worthless as the two-bit whore that he is.
Every single time they claim imperialist intentions or empire building, they should be stopped, and forced to defend that assertion. Everything that comes after is bound to be premised on that lie.
Inconsistent much, sashal?
BBH – those goalposts are now doing the Hokey-Pokey.
– If I was the RNC, assuming things continue to improve, when he makes his final appearance in front of congress later this year, I would run a full page ad in the NYT and the most hard-assed of the Leftwing papers across the country, honoring General Hesavedusâ„¢.
Actually it’s too protect the Iraqis from the inevitable Wahhabi incursions that happened in the 20s as the Brits bailed out; as the papers of RAF Capt. John Glubb & Brooke-Peckham would attest. As well as the Ilkwan incursion into Najaf and Karbala back in 1804-05
which forced the sultan to send his emissary Mohammed Ali Pasha to drive the Wahhabis back to the Nejd; you think as a Brit, Andrew would be aware of this.
Maybe we should let Russia and China prop up the Saudis like they did by signing contracts with Iran, and then blocked our efforts for sanctions.
Sashal: Keep in mind that US troops on Saudi soil was the key provocation cited in bin Laden’s fatwas of the mid and late 90’s for declaring jihad on the US and the west. (“Let there not be two religions in Arabia.”)
Let’s cut the neocons some slack here. We have no choice but to engage the enemy where strategically viable because the enemy (radical jihadists) will always consider us crusaders as long as there is any presence (both real and perceived) on “Muslim soil.” That, of course, includes economic, military and diplomatic ties to both Israel and any other ME country. I’m not suggesting that a continuous campaign of “democraticing” ME countries is preferable or even viable. But the idea that we can back away from the ME, oil or not, and find reasonable alternatives to hunting down jihadists is unsustainable and reckless. The presence remains and so does the so called “provocation.”
It would please me to no end that those who are so pissed of with Bush and the “neocons” would at least give them minor props for this part of the vision, even if there is anger about the execution.
You know, just a few minutes in between cries of “War Crimes!” and “Imperialists!” and the smearing of organic tomato sauce on Condi Rice. Of course, I also dream of unicorns and shooting below 200 at Torrey Pines.
I figure it’s not long ’til Geraldine Ferraro says Andy keeps his job just because he’s gay. Does anyone, even The Atlantic community, respect him anymore?
I’ve ceased to derive pleasure from mocking him. It reminds me too much of the high school harrassment of “queers and queens.” That’s not a slam against you, Karl, first, because I know you are critiquing his ideas and second because a column in The Atlantic should mean you’re a serious player. But Sullivan strikes me as pathetic. Does he have any admirers at all?
– Well at least one we know of, but thats just because he gives good drink and lots of reach arounds to him.
– Hey BJ. I didn’t know you reside in my neck of the woods. Or were you just referring to a possible vacation round or two at the links overlooking the blue, blue Pacific that B-B-B-Bing behbeh built?
No, BBH, I live in Eastern PA.
I stayed at the La Jolla Country Club for a conference in the eighties and drove by Torrey Pines. The way the course is set up for the Open I would have to have pallets of golf balls delivered to strategic holes in order to continue playing.
His lover.
When he’s blindfolded.
“US troops on Saudi soil was the key provocation cited in bin Laden’s fatwas”
But the real reason is that he offered his greatness to save them from Saddam, and they told him to get bent.
“What I fear is that the Bush administration and many neo-conservatives are claiming one thing, while planning for another; and after the last eight years, the trust level is low. I fear they want a permanent presence in Iraq to reassure Israel; and to pursue the option of war with Iran. I fear the bases are there to detain, contain or attack the regional Shiite power, Iran, and to reassure the regional Sunni powers that the US military will protect them.”
This is pure political crap and lies. The left has constantly beat this drum about Bush being a liar and not trustworthy. Its how they go for power. Its funny the only one I see blatantly lying and getting caught is Barack Obama.
When you got nothing to offer and no original ideas of your own to offer the American people just lie and accuse the other side of lying.
That was schoolyard mean, Geezer.
I denounce you. No Frothing Insinuations@trade; for you!
BJ – Literally pallets. That course is brutal, and is only going to get more difficult. Better Half had a conference out there and I had the pleasure of playing it with a friend who was a golf pro out there. What a majestic course. It ranks right up there with Pebble Beach in my book.
Frothing Insinuations™
Just to prove I could! (slinks away in shame)
Doesn’t Lefty just look like a tub of goo standing next to El Tigre?
SarahW: #19
True ’nuff. Nothing so volatile as a combination of religious heresy and a personal affront.
Is Andy aware of King Faisal’s recent condemnation of Islamist violence? Is he aware that the grand imam of Al-Azhar, Sheik Mohamed Sayyed Tantawi, who called Islamist terrorism anti-Islamic on May 20 of this year, had called for worldwide terrorism in 2006 against the West? Why the change of heart? It has to do with the military presence and success in Iraq, I think…and it is that which Andy finds so scary.
Odd, isn’t it, when the prospect of greater peace and liberty so frightens a man…especially a gay one.
“Muslims everywhere would regard such a large US presence as an affront.â€Â
Or, you know, not.
Here’s an excerpt you won’t be seeing at The Daily Dish:
Someone needs to remind these people how much they hate us. It seems to have completely slipped their minds and now they’re under the outrageously outrageous impression that we’re allies.
Julie Roginsky just reported on MSNBC that MOST Europeans nations want Obummer as president! She claims that due to the Iraq war, and our position on global warming, that we have lost our ability to lead. She just said that we haven’t put enough pressure on China and India to join the international community regarding green house gases emissions. Wow, Susan Sarandon, can Julie hitch a ride to Canada this fall?
Ah, a nice, cool, tall Frothing Insinuations™ – with a dash of Gay Caballero™ hot sauce. Mmmmmm, mmmmmm! I can hardly wait to get home!
What does this have to do with SCTV?
Oh, wait…
[quote]But Sullivan strikes me as pathetic. Does he have any admirers at all?[/quote]
Only the Log Cabin (apologist) Republicans admire him. (Their unofficial motto is “We hate Bush too!”) They gave him some sort of award a couple of years ago. This was one of the main reasons why I left the group.
But hyperbolic claims of empire, elevating the complaints of extremists over the concerns of the rest of the world, conflating containment and attack are all forms of the incoherency Sully exhibits because his stated fear is of evil BushCo and evil neocons, rather than the threat of a nuclear Iran followed by a Mideast arms race.
Rather coherent rhetoric from you, Karl. Praise the day, lo the day is long. At this early point, at least, I agree emphatically with much of what you belch.
See, I am not a mad man slowly dieing of syphilis. Many mock my bohemian freedom with rumors of such but it’s all because they’re jealous of my magnificent lyrical outbursts and my on-going praise of hero-genius Dan.
I play nice, share my toys, occasionally.
thor,
Why don’t you fuck off and die, you racist son of a bitch?
Hmmmm.
Andrew Sullivan.
Really. Why do you guys even bother?
fwiw, “Long-term military bases” refers to the construction techniques employed rather than the duration of use by ‘Merkican troops.
–
I used to admire Andrew when he was at the New Republic because he was a voice of reason on the left on some issues. But like many people, my admiration evaporated when he became militant on gay marriage and drank the ChimpyMcBusHitlerCo-Neocon kool-aid.
Speaking of militant on gay marriage, did anyone know that in 2001, Andrew was arguing in the pages of the New Republic that perhaps the purpose God had in mind for gay men was for them to be celibate priests? That celibacy might be exactly what God intended for them and it would be a more suitable outlet for their sexuality than empty, compulsive and promiscuous gay sex?
He was absolutely excoriated for this by gays. He’s certainly come back onto the reservation since then, wouldn’t you say?
I agree with the posters here that Andrew’s become something of a joke, which I regret. But I don’t agree with the attacks on his sexuality here. I was surprised to encounter them in this thread because I think this is a very smart blog and so are the people who come here. When people make cheap insults it degrades the quality of this blog and makes us look like Kos Kidz. We are almost always better than that. I myself try to maintain a standard of discourse that supports rather than undermines our arguments, because the stakes are too high right now.
Sorry to be a scold, but sometimes a schoolmarm’s got to box some ears.
Sean, if you mean a “son of a bitch” in the literal sense, well, I think I’m OK with the label. As far as the fucking off and dieing, are you sure you’re aren’t getting a little too caught up in the sensations of being a pussy?
– ajmalkov – Methinks you just do not understand the confligrate, and insistant, irreverence of the typically impish, highly intelligent, and parody minded typical PW reader.
– We not only mock, denounce, defame, ridicule, and condemn all things stereotypical, most of all we do all that, and more, with ghey abandon to ourselves.
– I’m not to sure just how much play you’ll get, bringing a schoolmarm’s box into the discussion, but what the hell, give it your best shot.
– And, I hereby denounce this entire post, myself, and anyone who knows anyone who’s read it.
– If you’ve gotten this far, and can will yourself to stop here, theres still time to save yourself from abject shame and denouncement. (too late.)
I’m still trying to figure where the attacks on his sexuality are on this thread. Is it because it was mentioned? Is that an attack, or is the criticism of mentioning sexuality a projection of some sort? Or, as teh left is fond of doing when debate strikes a painfully obvious and undeniable truth about its many fallacies (I really would rather use falsities, but I’m not sure it is a word), is it a criticism of enagaging a gay man in debate because he’s gay?
I just can’t stand the self-denunciations going on here, so I have to denounce myself.
And why is is self-denunciation rather than self-denounciation? I mean, I’m not really de-nunning myself.
I agree with the posters here that Andrew’s become something of a joke… But I don’t agree with the attacks on his sexuality here.
I’m not saying I mind the plays on his sexuality; PW regulars recognize and disapprove if you’re off-loading bigotry or hate with your snark and humor. I just hate seeing a basically nice person make a complete fool of himself in public.
Excitable Andy is a basically nice person?
From the columns I’ve read, he seems, well, so angry.
Oh well. I denounce myself again.
ajmalkov: “I used to admire Andrew when he was at the New Republic because he was a voice of reason on the left on some issues. But like many people, my admiration evaporated when he became militant on gay marriage and drank the ChimpyMcBusHitlerCo-Neocon kool-aid.”
Yessir, nothing quite like a rational and well-reasoned opening to a post to set the tone…
ajmalkov: “Speaking of militant on gay marriage, did anyone know that in 2001, Andrew was arguing in the pages of the New Republic that perhaps the purpose God had in mind for gay men was for them to be celibate priests? That celibacy might be exactly what God intended for them and it would be a more suitable outlet for their sexuality than empty, compulsive and promiscuous gay sex?”
The key word in that sentence would be “celibate.”
Then again, some brilliant Chinese emperor had the notion that if you loped off a fella’s wedding-tackle, his lack of progeny would deter him from political conspiracies and more devoted to duty, making eunuchs the ultimate bureaucrats. He never considered that the energy that a body puts into sex had to channeled / sublimated into some other function, which, in the case of the bureaucratic eunuchs, became political conspiracies. Mayhap its better for society if they keep themselves entertained, neh?
ajmalkov: “I agree with the posters here that Andrew’s become something of a joke, which I regret. But I don’t agree with the attacks on his sexuality here. I was surprised to encounter them in this thread because I think this is a very smart blog and so are the people who come here. When people make cheap insults it degrades the quality of this blog and makes us look like Kos Kidz. We are almost always better than that. I myself try to maintain a standard of discourse that supports rather than undermines our arguments, because the stakes are too high right now.”
Mayhap, mayhap not — to ignore his occasional peccadillo or burst of foolishness is to grant him an undeserved advantage. If he is going to act the ass, we should be allowed to point and laugh. If that involves his sexuality, so be it.
IIRC, it’s Andrew that brought Andrew’s sexuality into the arena of public discussion. That said, and in the interest of equality, I shall reciprocate and state this unequivocally: I like pussy. And sugartits. I can go top or bottom, because of the versatility.
Needle me all you like.
. When people make cheap insults it degrades the quality of this blog and makes us look like Kos Kidz.
We could never look like Kos Kidz, because we have a sense of humor. I think we need to bring out the GAY PORN COCK OF LIES.
Is the GAY PORN COCK OF LIES some sort of spigot that you twist one way or the other to regulate the rate of spewage?
Nope. I’m pretty sure you should fuck off and die. Seeing as how you’re a racist piece of shit and all.
“I mean, I’m not really de-nunning myself.”
For which Sister Mary Margaret Panzerfaust thanks you.
Ai! Ai! Cthulhu F’taghn!!
Sorry, I had to get that off my chest.
“Comment by Pablo on 6/13 @ 9:27 am #
I can go top or bottom, because of the versatility.”
I always make love on top.
‘Cause my Daddy told me “Never to fuck up.”
Homophobic racist sexists. All of you.
N. O’Brain, sometimes I’ll grab the bottom because of “Work smart, not hard.” Also, more titty bouncing.
ajmalkov,
PW commenters live and die by the cheap insult. We are addicted to cheap insults. That’s why it’s so “cooooool” to come here.
Hmmm, the bases were an issue to the far far left too (you know, the people who use that empire term a lot). Right from the start.
Geezer,
“(I really would rather use falsities, but I’m not sure it is a word),”
Don’t know about “falsities”, but I do know that “falsies” is a word. I just had to say that because I don’t think I have used that word since the eighth grade.
And it feels goooood.
N. O’Brain: “Ai! Ai! Cthulhu F’taghn!! Sorry, I had to get that off my chest.”
Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wgah’nagl fhtagn.”
No worries… there is a non-Euclidian corner in R’lyeh set aside, just for you…
I think a Freudian impulse made me want to write falsetitties, but it came out wrong.
Or right, of course.
Sexophobic homoracists.
Raciphobic homosexists.
Homophonophobic aerosexists.
– PhobeGates Photogenetic aeromanic ummmm – lets see….oh
– Sugartuts.
PW General Announcements: As noted in this mornings memo, for those of you that slept late, or were just playing with it and missed the alarm, the LightRider lounge upgrades are nearing completion, and should wrap up next week.
– The gift shop has been restocked with a brand new line of Arianna Huffinton blowup slut dolls, and we have celebtity bobble heads of all your favorites. The cult hero series of talking dolls includes Tony Rezko, Rev Wright, brother pfleger, and a host of others. Each one says something endearing, but the Wright dolls are going like hotcakes. Push his buttons and the good rev gives a 45 minute diatribe on the evils of America. Each doll comes with an autographed “certificate of authenticity” so you’ll never be accused of having a doll thats not part of the victimized Blacks identity group. No one will ever be able to question your patriotism again, no matter how many times you say you hate the
troopswar.– The free booklet booth has added a new self-denouncement form, for any of you that have run out.
– Don’t forget that on Saturday, June 14th, Michelle Obama will be at the Golden ObamaWorld Mall bookstore, autographing her new best selling autobiography, “America owes me – Feeding your family on 100K a month”. Come early, and avoid the lunitic groups.
– Tonights movie, shown at 7:30 pm in the Messiah auditorium, will be “O! – the early years – A man and his dog, audacity”. Tickets are on sale at the “Ladies of the perpetual BDS” booth on the lower concourse.
Are you stocking the new Rev. Wright Gated Community Mansion Collection™ and the new twin Rev. Wright Mercedes Mobiles™? I hope they are all sold separately since I have but limited funds.
Oh – is PW still accepting facsimile denouncement forms? I tried using a facsimile today and they thought it was a self-denouement form. I guess I have to re-file?
People joke about my sexuality every time I come out of the pool. It hurts.
Do you wear a bathing suit?
– Actually they are all part of the new “Rezko Block-Busting da burbs” community organizer set. You can mix and match and add the 18 hole golf course with duck pound. the Farakhn high school, complete with magnotometers on every door and classrooms that double as lock downs and isolation cells. For the ObamaMall you have all the top corporations such as Homey Depot, WalMart this, Yo-CostCo, and StarBucks wheat coffee shop. Each unit can be purchased individually with campaign donations as you go.
Do you wear a bathing suit?
A what?
Comment by Sean M. on 6/13 @ 9:56 am #
Nope. I’m pretty sure you should fuck off and die. Seeing as how you’re a racist piece of shit and all.
It’s as Baudelaire says, “it’s always the animal idolator being deceived in his idol,” or as JD would re-phrase it, “I think you worship Plutus and fuck goats, butthole breath.”
Can the ObamaMall have an Obamamama Shop with trendy maternity clothes? I’m really looking forward to boosting my collectioon, but I’m having trouble with a duck pound. Is that really something golf courses usually have?
[…] Protein Wisdom – Andrew Sullivan’s Empire of Incoherence [Karl] […]
What did the ducks do to be sent to a pound?
“What did the ducks do to be sent to a pound?
– They were caught doing rows of corn.
[…] once asked how having 50 long-term bases in Iraq was not empire, only to adopt a modified, limted hang-out position on his own question about two weeks later. He still gets itchy over Boot invoking postwar Germany […]