from the horse.
Reader Pat Riotic:
Is it possible that the right is being a little crool on Scott McClellan? After all, what might have inspired Scott McClellan to write his book?
Look at his daddy:
As noted at the above link, his first job as a lawyer was with the LBJ administration. Later in life he became a disgraced lawyer who could no longer earn a living at his chosen profession, so he wrote a conspiracy theory book.
Which, as it happens, seems to attack his former boss, the President of the United States.
I guess it’s a family tradition.
Crool?
My email handle, kelly.
Thanks, Dan. Sounds Scottish.
Take it easy , Dan.
Whatever he said in his book, it is not the earth shattering revelations( I knew it all along right after Bush took office) I remember telling friends -Saddam is the walking corpse now…
As far as propaganda.
Let me ask you a question.,
Can you believe that the Russian emigre who had endured 30 years of relentless brainwashing
and came out pretty good out of all that without any deference to communist ideology, can tell 1000 miles away when the government propaganda is in the full blown mode?
I hope you know what is my answer
When Bush opened his mouth about Saddam and the threat he posed, I knew the war will happen, no matter how many times we would go for UN resolutions or whatever…
I found this interesting:
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives2/2008/05/020641.php
What a scummy little family. It’s very Arkansas but for real they’re from Texas. Weird.
So 30 years of relentless brainwashing gave you the ability to read minds of people on television, sashal? Does it work over the internet, too? Like, can you tell what I am thinking right now?
B.Moe.
You are thinking to have a weekend sex with that porno girl you spotted on the internet the other day.
Fine, just get more tissue, pal, are you feeling extremely horny?
Sashal, if the UN had any sack, we probably wouldn’t have had to go to war. The sanctions didn’t work because of bribing UN officials, and the “Oil for Food Program” just gave Saddam a place to launder his ill-gotten oil revenue gains. What did the UN do about Somalia, Rowanda, Darfur or any war/crisis for that matter.
They sort of helped during the Gulf War, but they pretty much had to if they wanted to remain relevant. They wouldn’t act in Bosnia, so NATO had to do it. Instead, we have to hear about the “unnecessary war”. Saddam was lying to his own generals about WMD, and at one time he had WMD’s(or is that a lie – ask the Kurds). Hans Blix(IAEA, another useless organization) was such a cheese dick he couldn’t verify anything.
Nobody knew the truth, except you. The only thing anyone knew for sure is the UN is worthless, the sanctions weren’t working, and Saddam was flourishing while trying to reconstitute his military capability in violation of the UN resolutions he agreed to.
Scott McClellan sold out to the left because he feels that the left if going to be in power for awhile, and he wants to be in on it.
People keep refering to the removal of Saddam Hussein as if it was a bad thing. A bloody-handed dictator given the rope? That sounds like justice to me. And he got a trial, which is more than the children in the mass graves ever received.
Fail.
Mikey
Justice yes, a damn good thing. I’d a preferred they let their Olympic archery team use him for target practice than hang him, though.
Rob, who gives a fuck about UN?
Not me, not you.
Russians did Afghanistan thing with all kinds of resolutions against them, so?
UN is powerless(unfortunately).
I am just saying, again, Blix or no Blix( but how could that hurt to let him finish his job? Hah?), WMD or not WMD.
Saddam and many innocents who happened to be Iraqis by birth were doomed , thanks to our belligerent, democracy building around the world president….
sashal,
All Saddam had to do was come clean about his arsenal, and abide by the resolutions. Had he done so, he and his sons would still be merrily raping and killing their subjects today, and you and your ilk would be happy about it.
Sashal
Calm down man and learn how to count. Then think about causation, what is a cause of death, what is not. Stop blaming innocent Iraqi deaths on Bush. It’s old and tiresome pap. Or raise your voice over the Burmese doomed to death by cholera and their junta.
Seriously, if Blix and previous inspectors couldn’t finish the job in ~12 years, when do you think they might have finished it?
Two weeks?
no, Squid,
no matter what Saddam would have done.
He was doomed
JIm,how long it takes to save more then 4 thousand American lives and countless others
How many Iraqi deaths is Hans Blix responsible for?
wow, dre,
I had no idea Blix was a covert name for Hussein or Bush
Hans Blix eats sausages. All the time he eats the sausages. Pompous Swede.
McClellan’s mother is no prize either. What a vindictive biotch!
Sashal, how many more Iraqis would Saddam have killed between 2003 and now? You act like life was good in Iraq and I suppose it was right up until his goons or sons killed you. BTW, he was NOT doomed, he had deadlines and he ignored them. Please stay in THIS reality
Blix eats the sausage. Homophobe.
I’m not judging. These are just the facts. I report, you decide.
– Has the pool started yet on how long it will take Hill-Rod to lawyer up Monday morning if the DNC stiffs her this weekend?
#24
“”how many more Iraqis would Saddam have killed between 2003 and now?”
I don’t know , do you?
Are you always that much concerned with Human’
well being in all other countries?
How many people should be the qualifying point for USA to invade?
“…no matter what Saddam would have done,
he was doomed. Which is why I coughed up my WMD baking equipment like Zawaheri looking at a waterboard.”
Momar Khadafi
“…no matter what Saddam would have done,
he was doomed. I told him a million times — “Give up the palace and get a nice ***cave***.”
Osama Bin Laden
# 25, JD,
Those Swedes are bad.
All they know is the salty food and Svedska(actually pretty good, beats Absolute)
“…no matter what Saddam would have done,
he was doomed, and my son’s business with him.”
Koffi Annan
– Saddams “real” weapon of mass destruction in Iraq, the Oil for food Program. (534 mass graves at last count).
ya nizh nayhu, sashal. ya lub lu pi piva.
Here’s the thing, though, sashal: we know for an absolute fact that Hussein currently has no wmd. Zip, zilch, nada. He was a rogue actor in near-constant violation of the cease-fire that ended the gulf war, a boil on the ass of humanity, and it was time to put some teeth into the UN resolutions that he was flouting.
JD, see if you can get “Baltica”
it has a few different flavors, and is good( I think it was created with the help of Dutch recepe)
Very good beer
I hear you Jim in KC.
I trotally agree that Saddam was an asshole.
sashal – I quit drinking the piva and bubka, but Baltica was alright when I tasted it.
Russian beer pales in comparison to russian women.
– See sashal, if Bush41 would have finished the job, 9/11 might never have happened.
– The fatal flaw your side seems to suffer from is that you never seem to learn, no matter how many times history repeats the lesson, or how many more people die because of inaction, the Left always wants to put things off, and try to stall for time. Thats why you cling to “negotiation” as almost your messianic answer for every conflict. Some conflicts cannot be solved by talking. With the ME, talking in general inflames the aggressors, just the opposite of what you think will happen. Anyone that knows anything about the history of the rgion and its cultures, looks at that screed from your side and just dismisses you as naive.
– When you face an intractable enemy, and the Islamofacists, with their “go ahead and kill me, I’ll just be a martyr”, are as intractable as they come, you just end up having to fight an even worse conflict with even more deaths, later on. You don’t gain a thing, you lose by equivocating, and worse, you embolden the enemy in this case.
– That, among other ideas they have that flies in the face of all of history, and all of human nature, is simply something the Left seems incapable of learning, no matter how painful the lessons.
– Do you ever for a moment really consider that fact sashal, or are you content to just parrot the Left talking points out of fear, or stubbornness, or both?
– Or, like many Marxists, you just hate the fact that America is a super power, and feel thats just so unfair, and we should be brought to task for our position in the world?
Hunter, who told you I am left.
Is the political discourse here so rigid? Just left and right?
black and white?
What if I am an anarchist?
Hating all authoritarians who would like to impose?
I like the part where America frees people what are living hopeless and fearful lives. It’s like that scene in ET with the froggies. Except sober and more noble and Drew Barrymore isn’t really involved. It’s nice that we’re big like that. George totally gets that. I don’t think Baracky understands this very well though. He thinks we’re pretty shitty but that he’ll fix us. Whatever, Baracky.
no, Squid,
no matter what Saddam would have done.
He was doomed
So? You say that like it’s a bad thing.
JD,
I am partial when the talk is about Russian women.
My wife is one of them, and she is the best thing ever happened to me.
I don’t want to offend our girls here, lisa, carin and others,
God is my witness I love all women in general…
But i wholeheartedly agree, Russian girls are something special,,,, mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
“Hating all authoritarians who would like to impose?
– You don’t have to be any particular political leaning to feel that sashal. Most probably almost all of humanity at one time or another feels that.
– But if you are trying to say that “we” impose, you’d be kidding yourself, and just even more naive than I thought.
– In spite of all of our detractors, (whom I think justifies their senseless hate for America because we “have” so much – basically petty jealousy), America is the most beneficent world power that has ever existed, and humanity is fucking lucky we are.
– Imagine for a moment what the world would be like today if any one of the Parade of despot dictators that havd danced through the world in the last two Centuries would have been where we are instead of us.
– You know the answer.
HF, that was a movie.
I loved it too, and even cried as a kid…..
Oh. Well it’s an important message is all I think. Vivisection bad, freedom good. Timeless, really.
HF, that was a movie.
So was Fahrenheit 911.
BBH: sashal is not a leftist, though he is an isolationist. That is the confusion because most non-intervention people are on the left these days; that is they do not want the US to intervene because the US is uniquely evil and the world must be protected from the American contamination. That is not sashal.
sashal, by his own words (if I read right) does not want the US to intervene because of his upbringing in a nation that intervened in other nations near and far and was not doing so for any greater good. He does not accept the argument that a powrful nation could intervene in another nation for reasons that are not venal. Certainly the US has intervened to advance its own interests (see the Jim Baker school of realism), but it has also intervened for altruistic reasons (see Somalia in the early 1990’s).
I don’t think sashal quite understands that there is a crusader instinct in the American people that goads them to intervene in what isn’t their fight merely to put things right somewhere. And the American people respond to that call. America is different, it isn’t just a larger, richer, British Empire or Soviet Union.
The American hero is the cowboy, and if you look closely at the cowboy in American myths he is the knight-errant; he is Ivanhoe, he is Robin Hood, he is Roland. The Lone Ranger wasn’t a success just because of Tonto, it was what he represents, and if you look at popular fiction and the heros and heroines, they all are crusaders for something or another.
It is in our blood, it comes from George Washington, I think, and a bunch of men who pledged their lives, fortunes, and sacred honor to a belief. The greatest damage Europe suffered wasn’t the casualties of the Great War, it was losing that inspiration to do right because it was simply the right, honorable, thing to do.
That was really nice.
Wow his dad was a very impressive crank.I would totally order that book but I already saw the Ollie Stone movie back in the day so I am so over that particular conspiracy. And little Scotty’s book does not sound like it has many blockbuster revelations. He sounds like he is regurgitating what those of us on the left have been idly speculating and gossiping about on the internets for years. It kind of sounds like he just cobbled together gossip and snark off of a Salon message board (not even the good stuff – like accusations of Oval Office crack parties or gay hookers) and made a book.
Mikey NTH
Maybe Sashal would enjoy Robert Kagan’s “Dangerous Nation: America’s Place in the world, from its earliest days to the dawn of the 20th century”
#49: Well said.
Here is a question:
Suppose you are walking down a street and you see a woman holding on to her purse as a man tries to take it from her.
(1) What is the right and honorable thing for a man to do?
(2) What would you be permitted to do under the law in the United States?
(3) What would you be permitted to do under the laws of the United Kingdom, or France, or most other European nations?
Which place – the United States or Europe – would actually be successful in taming aggression and putting it to the furtherence of a civilized society? Which place coddles bullies and demeans the victim?
To put it bluntly – would you rather have men trying to emulate Ivanhoe no matter how poorly they do it, or would you rather have them emulating the Templar in that story? Which society would be safer and more livable?
– Mikey, I’m actually aware that sashal is not a Leftist. I simply chide him sometimes because he falls in the Leftist worldview trap in some of his posts.
– My ancesters, and some former family members are all from the Rodina. I grew up listening to their view of things. Some saw America as a great blessing, and believed of the existance of that American ideal, that spirit of fairness and moral obligation you put so well. Others never could escape the fear that a lifetime of running to survive inculcated in them, right down to their souls. Others, some 137 relatives that I never met, who died right around the time I was born, never had a chance to tell their stories, having had their lives cut short, and now sleeping in the ashes of Belsen, Auschwitz, and numerous other of Adolphs killing factories, never the less, had their feelings carried to our shores by my grand parents and others in the family.
– So you see, I’ve heard it all, and seen both sides of the argument, up close and personal, and the one message they all wanted desperately to send to future generations is never, NEVER bow. Never. that you Americans, iuncluding myself, will never know the horrors of appeasement. That we are so very lucky to live in a country that is not onlt blessed with the fruit of hard work, but that spirit you talked about. Their worse fear that that American spirit, the one real hope for the world, would fade with time and die. I, as a legacy to them, will not let that happen in my time. I will not.
Though I agree that Americans are hardwired to set things right around them, I think we should not delude ourselves into thinking that we are in Iraq rather than the Sudan because it is simply more “right” to be in Iraq. Obviously, it is important that we establish a presence in the Middle East that is more substantive than P-Diddy and Jay-Z nipping over to a luxury hotel in the UAE for a weekend. But the pompous posturing and outright bullshit that gets fed to the public is what is so repellent and what makes people so suspicious about the motives behind a military intervention.
The concept goes far into the past of America. Read ‘The Last of the Mohicans’ and ponder the characters of Chingachgook, Uncas, and Natty Bumppo. They didn’t have to help that Major, they did not have to help that preacher, they did not have to help the Munro sisters. Yet they did, to great risk they helped them. And the book was a success when it came out in 1826, and has remained in the American canon after all of these years. That tells me that despite its technical merits and flaws it speaks deeply to the American character, of who we are and who we aspire to be.
Morally, emotionally, culturally it is never a bad thing to aspire at being a knight-errant.
BBH:
I am sorry – I didn’t know. America isn’t perfect, the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. Keep that small flame alive, that little meddlesome irritating flame that calls you to look in on the neighbor you haven’t seen for a couple of days, that calls you to check a bully. I think it is called conscience, and it separates us from the animals, no matter if they go on two legs or four.
If enough good men do nothing…
They came for…but I wasn’t, so I did not speak out…
Call mne a cynic, but, ala David Brock, I just have this feeling that little Scotty was confronted with pictures of his activities with little boys (or girls).
I would think that a 180 like that would break your neck, otherwise.
Lost Dog
180 neckbreaking not a problem for the spineless like McClellan.
#49, Mikey, that was pretty good.
Yes, I do not want us to be “Robin Hoods” or “Ivanhoe” or Cowboy.
As far as the good feelings go about helping others- Americans have no match in the world.
but , guys, this is all Hollywood, the reality works differently, different cultures and nations and historical developments may not accept your good intentions , we sure can nudge them for this, but we should not invade them for that purpose, how would you justify the death of the innocent citizen? for some lofty goal which not even jibes with their culture.
Would you like to be one of those? Imagine yourself an Iraqi, who peacefully harvests the field near Basrah, would you still like the invasion even if you hated your dictator, even after the accident bomb would kill your daughter?
Think about it, we have to be responsible for our action, even if we have good intentions…
We are not God and not Judges for other people,
be humble, folks, in deciding other people’s fate when going after unnecessary wars
I am not isolationist…
I did want the war against Afghanistan-revenge and prevention-, which I did not want to be hindered by some other adventure…..
And I want us to have healthy and pragmatic relationships with all the nations in the world
– Lisa, I know even as I write this, that this response is a simplification, and in writing it I don’t in any way mean to say that each and everyone of Bush’s moves were correct. But the short answer is that post Afghanistan, the entire gaggle of Jihadists in the form of al Qaeda, and the numerous splinter groups and countries like Iran/Syria, who to one degree or another support them, they themselves declared Iraq as “the battleground”. They didn’t give a damn about Hussein. They saw our deposing of Saddam as the perfect opportunity to move into, what they hoped would be, a power vacuum, and an ideal breeding grounds for their own expansion. We were supposed to fold up our tents and go home, ala VietNam, and Bin Laden himself admitted in one of his tapes that he counted on the pressure from the Left here in the states to force Washingtons hand.
– We’ve pissed in his cornflakes, double crossed him. We didn’t turn tail and leave. As for the Left, well their motives, I don’t believe, are really anti-war, at least not most American Leftists. As I’ve said before, someone back in 2002 whispered in the DNC’s ear that no political party had ever been able to oust the sitting party in a time of war. Thus, from that moment on, its been all “Bush bad, Jihad good” 24/7. They’re just sick of being out of power.
#58: The philosophy is great. But we are very selective about when we want to invoke Edmund Burke and nip over and intervene. Apparently, the continent of Africa does not count in our matrix of “things we need to do the right thing about”.
It makes me sad and very very skeptical about this knight-errant stuff.
Vivisection bad, freedom good.
Hey. Where’s Jeff? He’ll tell you.
“Would you like to be one of those? Imagine yourself an Iraqi, who peacefully harvests the field near Basrah, would you still like the invasion even if you hated your dictator, even after the accident bomb would kill your daughter?
– Sashal – Remember this?
“Former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein has been sentenced to death by hanging for the mass killings of Iraqi civilians.
The judgement comes after months of stormy proceedings to establish Hussein’s guilt in ordering the executions of 148 men and boys from the village of Dujail in 1982 following a failed assassination attempt against him.
– Do yourself a favor sashal. Forget the image of peacefull villages with kids playfully flying kites next to rivers flowing with chocolate. thats a fairytale that a certain group with very specific motives invented one slow afternoon.
Lisa, don’t you think USAID people would disagree with your “…Africa does not count etc…”?
Lisa – that is part of the reality of logistics. Sudan would be difficult as any advance would have to be supported through Egypt. Iraq was easier logistically as we could use Kuwait as a staging area. Each would be morally correct to do, Somalia was morally correct. But Iraq was easier as port facilites were immediately available as were the staging areas. For the sme reasons Iran could not be immediately attacked as there was no nearby staging area, and a D-Day type of landing would require a Great Britain, which there isn’t in the Persian Gulf.
Much like the Allies’ first counterattack in Europe in 1942 landed in French Morrocco and French Algiera – because it could be done and would clear an area. Allied strength would be emphasized and Axis strength wouldn’t be. And shady deals were done with the powers there, but none of that made Operation Torch any less right or honorable.
It was strategicaly correct, it was logisticaly supportable, it was morally correct – and considering the rawness of the expanded US Army it was tactically correct. In 2003 Iraq was already at war with the US, the US could mass forces near Iraq, the Iraqi government was odious, and it was in the heart of the middle east. Iraq fit the bill – too bad for Mr. Hussein, but no tears for him, and much scorn for those who would see him left on his throne.
And also Baracky will be hard-pressed to do Africa more better than George did. George a lot hearts the Africa, and it’s classy I think how he does it in the understated way he does. What a great guy. Baracky will probably mostly sponsor native dance celebrations and summits where they talk about being nice to women. Not a heavy lifter, that one.
I think McClellan is an opportunist, plain and simple. No need to complicate. At this point I would trust him as far as I could throw my chevey cavalier.
But as far as Saddam is concerned, the son of a bitch had years and years to resolve his standoff with the UN and the west. He had years before Bush ever came to Washington. He did not have to jack around with Clinton. Bill would have been more than happy to put an end to that tug of war. As it was Clinton maintained that Saddam was a threat and supported his removal from power.Besides Saddam was a mass murdering dictator and the world is a better place without him in it.
The world is too small to pretend that we can just ignore everyone else. America tried that before WW2 and isolationism ended with bombing of Pearl Harbor. Besides, when some idiot can blow up a pipeline in Nigeria and I end up paying another nickel for a gallon of gas two days later it is obvious that there are strategic interests in the ME for the United States.
happyfeet:
Bush did do a lot for Africa, more than any predecessor. You would think that if the media cared about that sort of thing as much as they pretend to that they might have played it up a bit more.
Personally, I think that most of the American media has simply decided that if they can help it, there will be no good news anywhere, until there is a Democrat in the White House.
sashal – sixty years ago we burned Japan to the ground. I am sure very few Japanese, even that little boatbuilder whose yard the USS Barb shelled appreciated that. What now? Japan is a free country, a country whose citizens are free.
It isn’t the little farmer in Basra, or the boatbuilder in Japan, or the machinest in Dusseldorf that there was any issue with. It was with their murderous governments that the issues were with. That is the way the world works – you cannot remove dictators without people getting hurt, but it is always a good thing to remove dictators. I don’t really see any advantage to keeping bullies around if there isn’t any reason.
And yet we continue to pour foreign aid into the continent. Go ask Bono about US efforts there, and which administration has been the most effective.
Also they never talk about recycling. It’s weird. I bet if Baracky gets his ass in the White House they’ll be all about telling you “what you can do”.
“…until there is a Democrat in the White House.”
– Actually, if history is any judge, it wouldn’t matter. Good news doesn’t sell.
Now the Iraqis will have a chance at a future they would never have had with Saddam. And what if there had been a coup and a failed state? With their oil, no one would just ignore them. The Iranians would have been there, the Turks would have come in. How many people would have died then?
BTW, I am sorry Lisa that the power of the USA isn’t infinite. We are only human and can only get so many dictators at a time. It would be nice if others would take up the fight, because the Lone Ranger can’t be everywhere at once.
BBH:
It doesn’t sell as well. But when the media wants to help a guy out, they do. Look at the coverage of economic news from Clinton’s time and now. And I am not talking about the price of gas. I am talking about the great unemployment rate of 5.5% vs the really horrible and grim unemployment rate of 5%.
Very interesting link…that Barr McClellen fella, pa of Scott. I am not sure he is a baddie for getting disbarred, that Barr? What do we know about Texas politics? He was part of the ‘ruling class’ there and naturally GW preferred Texan’s on his team. Who’s the problem here? GW for his mendouceness, he’s narrow circle of team members and maybe Barr was right about LBJ?
Seems big Oil did okay with GW. Trillions in their coffers, not just the mere 100 million that LBJ apparently let them keep (in contrast to former Mass Senator, Pres. Kennedy.) Better reread that wiki again. And putting the Ford Pinto out of America’s misery…that’s not bad lawyering, Barr!
#52: BBH I agree that we need to establish a presence in the Middle East. Besides the eternally beleaguered Israel, there needs to be a friendly country that is not screwing us over blowing smoke up our asses while breeding terrorists to export somewhere else to kill Westerners – the “hey better you than us” method that Saudi Arabia practices (a cheap alternative to actually building an infrastructure that would support a middle class and neutralize extremism).
I just think that invading Iraq was a crappy idea for a couple of reasons:
1. You have to have your country TOTALLY behind the war and ready to sacrifice big time to get the job done. The country has to be willing to pay higher taxes to fund it and volunteer to fight in it (taxes and drafts don’t actually have to happen, but the mindset of total support and willingness to give it all up for the cause should be there). We were just never all that into it. It is not surprising that the support that it did have collapsed so quickly.
2. I have no idea what folks thought was going to happen over there, but alot of people – including the president’s father – said it would probably end up being a big fucking zoo. And we still had idiots predicting a cake walk and planning the war accordingly. The reason I never supported the Iraq invasion was that I suspected someone was lying to us and to themselves about how this thing would turn out. They all seemed like a bunch of fatties who thought they were playing a game of Halo or something.
I was never down with the “no-war for oil” crowd. Hell, if we need some fucking oil and a creepy dictator has it – that is a better goddamned reason to go kick some ass than some sexed-up bullshit story about WMD’s or the need for the Purple Fingers of Democracy. I don’t think America is always bad. I don’t think military intervention is bad. It has done a fucking lot of good. But sometimes it is a bad idea…or a good idea but with dumbassed cheetoboys planning it.
Africa doesn’t have to be cheesey about it though.
Whatever. Pretty proud of that fucking potato aren’t ya? Pitiful.
– #78 – True, but trust me, the media did far worse when Truman was in office. When the old grey Lady got done with him, and the Congress, you would have thought he was worse than Hitler.
– Hmmm, come to think of it, where have I heard THAT recently?
datadave:
I was born and raised in Oklahoma. Oil did well in both states and both states benefited from it. So what? Michigan at Detroit, etc.
As for who picks who, I have noticed that almost every administration with a second term as something like this happen. Reagan had Regan. That might not seem like a big deal now, but it was major then. And George with the Greek last name I can not spell, wrote a similar book on Clinton, and so on.
5.5% vs the really horrible and grim unemployment rate of 5%.
phoney numbers..probably 10 or more percent of ‘underemployed’ meaning not eligible for benefits and just getting by with family, non taxed ’employment’. Don’t kid yourself, the average American worker is much more insecure than his parents. Average length of job for average American is down to 8 years instead of 13 about a decade ago. A lot of ‘churning’ and Walmart type jobs don’t mean real ’employment’.
Really? So the US didn’t actually liberate most of the Pacific basin from the Japanese Empire? Or provide the majority of the arms (though not the personnel) that destroyed the Nazi Empire? Or stare down the Soviet Empire?
The US isn’t the nation with the highest per capita donations to international charity? The US wasn’t the nation that was first in with assistance in Indonesia after the tsunami? The US isn’t the nation with the most resources in place to provide relief everywhere in the world?
No, the US isn’t perfect. But at least we try to do good.
That you don’t want the US to be a force for liberty in the world is why I say you have no fucking idea about US culture. A truly isolationist America of the type you want (“pragmatic” — code for “don’t rock the boat”) would no longer be America.
Big Oil did ok with old Deng deciding to let 1.2 billion Chinese try to get rich while the state subsidizes fuel, driving demand ever higher at no cost to the consumers there.
– I’m not sure dataless. Maybe we should call Soros and ask him how much it cost him for McClellan to “remember” how unhappy he was.
BBH:
I read the David McCullough bio on Truman. They did work him over. But he was a spunky little feller. In fact I have thought that he and Bush had a lot in common. Both of them inherited a war in a way. And both of them had to deal with all sorts of challenges at home and abroad. Lots of second guessing. Character assassination. Back stabbing. Wild accusations.
datadave:
Whatever, they are the numbers. You can call them phoney if you want. We also could include all the self employed people who work but do not bother paying taxes. There is a whole economy out there that goes unreported.
See? America has nothing to do with it. Get your new narrative while it’s hot.
America is teh suck. Thanks, NPR. I see that now.
“….Lots of second guessing. Character assassination. Back stabbing. Wild accusations.”
– The winning combination for the legacy media.
datadave:
My father was a roughneck in Oklahoma who was almost killed on a rig. He could not work for two years and there was no such thing as disability. He went to work for a company that sold oil tools and when they shut down he moved out of state to get another job. There was nothing secure about that. His father managed to hang onto the farm during the Dust Bowl in Oklahoma, but my mother’s parents were not so lucky and they had to go to California to work as migrants. There was no relief to speak of, no help for the tens of thousands of displaced people from the Dust Bowl. So spare me the lectures about how tough it is.
happyfeet:
And they would know, after all the media is so much more knowledgeable about that sort of thing than some silly people in uniforms with all their guns and maps and drones and things.
#68: Thank you. Very well said. If the president and his Clown Posse had said it like that instead of the ZOMG Teh Mushroom Cloudz! Shit he was trying to sell, maybe a whole lot more people would have supported the war.
And for everyone else whose answer was “hey but we give money to Africa!” answer me this: Would Bono and USAID have eventually toppled Saddam Hussein? I didn’t think so. So how the hell do you think it is going to stop the slaughter in Sudan?
I am not advocating that we run off to Sudan right now. I am just saying that we are good people and do good things around the world when we can and when it is in our interest….but we should not wander into the Forest of Self Delusion.
good points, mikey. sashal is hardly a leftist.
I don’t hate GW Bush. Actually like his sense of humor and his wife and kids.
Now, his daughter (Jena?) is going into teaching. Hardly a big income move but apparently she’s sticking with it for a little while longer…more than most people would have thought. And what’s Chelsea Clinton doing? Working for a Hedge Fund? yikes is that some sort of job a parent with influence would set you up with. Pork Futures? or was it Beef?
I maybe one of the few who thinks Bush’s freeing Iraq might have been the only thing positive he’s done…but so sorry his advisors, helpers, ‘creeps’, fucked the noble idea proving Obama and Dean were right even when I was thinking it had a noble purpose. But the way we did it sucked….blood for oil and all that. And Blackwater thugs running over and shooting kids on the streets like the Japs did in China in the 40s. Even if they have a reason (to protect the diplomats) it still isn’t a way to win hearts and minds. (the diplomats should have just stayed put and not called the caravan to the streets) Black armored gas guzzling SUVs don’t make friends in the USA …why’d we think they’d work in Iraq? Especially with guns pointing at every Iraqi?
(we shoulda secured the joint before saying “Mission Accomplished”.) And Cut Taxes!
#61 sashal – for what should those good feelings be if they do not get put into concrete form every now and again? As another thread would have it, it is called “Putting your money where your mouth is.” an American trait. It is easy not to live up to ideals if you don’t have them in the first place; but Americans have those ideals, and every now and again they get uncomfortable if they cannot try to live up to those ideals. They may not succeed (see The War on Poverty) but Americans do try to live up to their ideals if called to do so. (See MLK Jr.’s ‘I have A Dream’ speech; See FDR’s ‘Rendezvous With Destiny’ speech). We like being called to Glory; Americans like that. It is part of our blood-line. The most damning thing you could say about this administration is that it didn’t make the call. If it had, the people would have responded.
BBH:
Yellow Journalism at its best. And yet we continue to tune in and read their crap and watch their crap and hang on their every word. Some of us anyway.
And how do you know this? What is the source of your information?
Which has nothing to do with the incredibly high tax rates, the fact that Social Security won’t pay out a penny for anyone younger than the Boomers, and the never-ending stream of ginned-up bad economic news. I mean, you spend forty years telling people they’re insecure, it eventually sinks in.
Uh, Dave, “churning” is SOP in the tech sector. The longest I’ve stayed at a job was four years, though I’ve been on a single project for around five now. Hell, until 2002, I’d had fifteen managers in the course of eight years, and every employer I’d ever had changed names while I was working there.
Change is the only constant in my line of work.
Yeah, killing their leadership as well as thousands of their foot soldiers has absolutely no effect on the organization. And the fact that those who are turning against them cite the unpredicted American response along with the number of muslims AQ has killed? Well, try not to mention that, k?
That was for happyfeet way back at #89. Refresh is my friend, but I cannot find him.
#95: There is a rumor that Jenna is moving to my ‘hood (Baltimore) and will possibly teach in our school system. I hope she took some Krav Maga classes and is packing some heat in her Prada bag because our schools are off the hizzay.
#79 datadave.
If a lawyer is disbarred it means he is a bad guy. I’m a lawyer and you got to screw up big time to get disbarred. Screw up as in ‘do something evil’ screw up.
Wow, dave. You really buy into the propaganda whole-hog, don’t you?
Mikey:
I am not so sure about that. I think Americans do have that trait. But I do not think they would have responded to that call from Bush, maybe from anyone. We want to do the right thing, we just do not want to make those kinds of sacrifices anymore. They did it in WW2. But in Korea things began to change. It is not cowardice, or a lack of belief. It is TV. It is watching it day after day. I wonder if we could have won WW2 if the folks back home saw the same things in their living rooms that my father did at Okinawa.
Mikey, at #72
The only thing with japan case or german, we had to, we were forced to get into the war. And when we are in , many methods are justifiable to reach faster resolution
We did not initiate it. So in my view , unfortunate deaths of peaceful citizens can not be pinned on us as our fault, that was their governments fault, who DID ATTACK US.
Not the case with Iraq…s
– Lisa, I can’t say whats in the mans head, and I’m out of the loop now and certainly not privy to his inner circle, but I’ve heard talk that he stayed out of several of the African conflicts because they were, at least in some cases, very clearly civil wars, true civil wars, not like the faux version al Qaeda very nearly succeeded in spawning in Iraq (with the help of the Left and the drive by media here at home), and that he felt by keeping a low profile he could do more real good by feeding and supporting groups that seemed to be on the right side of freedom. He also was trying to avoid useless haggling that would have come forth from the UN. those are about all I know. Other than that it is very sad, but certainly not hopeless. Maybe one of the best things that can come out of a stable Iraq, is the message it will send to other dictators across the globe.
Amen, Lisa. And the funny thing is that if not for all the Amerikkka is Evil imperialists screeching we’ve heard over the last 6 years we might have enough moral authority to flex a little muscle in Sudan and hurt some very bad people.
Terrye, I think one of the camps I work on is a legacy of those Oil Executives who made money off the uninsured oil field workers.
someone said the worst thing to have happen to a country is to have vast oil resources: look at Nigeria, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, or Venezuela. corruption, a huge profit for the few against the many, etc.
Switzerland doesn’t have oil but her people are richer than Americans generally…although land is too expensive to buy there.
In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea,
With a glory in His bosom that transfigures you and me:
As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free…
#103: I don’t know what Blackwater is over there doing, but they are really pissing off the American and British military. Sorry, but I defer to our boys and girls (and the chinless limey’s boys and girls for that matter) over the rentacops.
Lisa:
Bush did say things like that. He also talked about democracy. But no matter what he said, people did not seem to hear it. If he talked about liberty, he was too esoteric. If he talked about American interests, that just meant oil and oil is bad. I think the real difference is how receptive the audience is. No one would have considered laughing at FDR, even when he was weak. Back then people actually respected the office. After that war, things began to change.
If Blackwater wants to help it’s fine with me. Everybody should pitch in and do their part I think. Plus the name sounds cool.
*sigh*
Except that Saddam repeatedly violated the cease-fire from the Gulf War. And let’s not forget that he, his Fedayeen Saddam, and the jihadis who chimed in made it a policy to murder civilians.
Most the Blackwater people are former military.
#107: I hate to say it but I think you are right. I think how Iraq was executed probably hurt us. But the shrill “no war EVERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR” screeches hurt us pretty fucking good.
Yes, I do not want us to be “Robin Hoods†or “Ivanhoe†or Cowboy.
As far as the good feelings go about helping others- Americans have no match in the world.
but , guys, this is all Hollywood…
If you remove the myth of the cowboy, the knight-errant, from America then it is no longer America. Removing that aspiration, that confidence, from western Europe hasn’t exactly helped western culture, has it?
Aspiring to be greater, better, more of a man than whom you actually are is part of being an American. Not settling, but striving to be honorable, to be gallant is what people need to have said to them. “It’s not my problem” is how societies become unlivable. It is the person who has no dog in the fight that intervenes anyway that makes civilization possible. And I like a civilized society.
Iraq did not attack us? Well, they were in violation of a cease fire. They tried to kill a president. They shot at our planes. And after the first attack on the World Trade Center, the one man to escape justice named Yasin went to Iraq. In fact I saw some silly interview with him that 60Minutes did back in the 90’s. He disappeared in March 2003. So I think that it is fair to say that we did not just sneak up on Saddam. There was history there.
And the way the left bought into every goddamned piece of jihadi propaganda that was released.
Hey cowboys were the real deal. They were not Hollywood. The Settlers were the real deal. Imagine striking off across a frontier, not knowing what you will face. You do it for a better life. It took courage to do that.
Rob, I listen to what the Iraqis say, NOT what Fox News tells you. The Iraqis hate Blackwater and the other highly paid thugs representing the US there. Even a lot of our Troops hate the mercenaries* too as they are making it difficult there and often get privileges that mere grunts don’t get. I think the damage has been done but reform is in the works.
(* many ’employees of the security firms aren’t Americans you know…like the Brit that was on NPR a couple of days back who worked for Blackwater.)
But still not enough Reform to fix the problems… as we cut taxes in a so-called war and enlistment is dependent upon bad economic conditions here at home. If the economy was sound hardly anyone would go into the military due to the quagmire..but now that jobs are cut and benefits slashed, the relative low-intensity war is still getting a good trickle of recruits. But a lot of people are leaving in disgust .
Oh come on data, how many Iraqis do you know? This has nothing to do with Fox News. I am sure that a lot of Iraqis would like nothing better than to have all the armed men off their streets. But the Blackwater people are security people. That is their job.
I think sashal sees America as a standard of living, not an ideal.
Screw them, right, dave? Fuck you.
I’d rather have Blackwater in my foxhole than Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi both. They’d get me killed, I know they would. Flighty and stupid, those two. Plus the name sounds cool.
#111: Maybe. But we have a long tradition of disrespecting, making fun of, and lambasting our leaders. We were actually much meaner at the inception of our democracy than we are now. You should read some of the newspapers from back in the day. Whooo they were merciless.
We were just not committed to this war like we were to WWII. We were like “um…okay…sure” but we were not really down for it. Just suppose that somehow it became mandatory that we raise a war tax to pay for the war today – or that every able bodied American serve six months in Iraq doing something constructive until Iraq was a stable and viable democracy….trust me, we would find all manner of excuses why Iraq is not that important in the War on Terror.
“…I think sashal sees America as a standard of living, not an ideal.
– And dataless sees it as a handout opportunity standard of living.
Bullshit, dave. Stop making crap up.
Hey I bought savings bonds. And also I gave up my car for like 6 months so far. And I make many supportive comments. It was really all I could think of to do.
sashal – I have been giving you an out, but you haven’t taken it. We were at war with Iraq since 1991. An armistice does not equal peace. The collision would have happened, it was going to happen. In that area backing down was not an option for either Saddam Hussein or the United States. The collision was inevitable.
But that does not alter the American character. If we were so venal as you posit we would have found a nice general to give power to who would keep all tamped down and kept the oil flowing. But we didn’t take the obvious solution. Why is that?
Try looking at the American character for your answer.
Hard to keep the people committed when half the political leaders decide to throw it for political gain.
Scott Helvenston, Jerry Zovko, Michael Teague, Wesley Batalova. Not a mercenary among them. Fuck you, dave.
– You are exactly correct Lisa. And what would it take to build that fire of unity under us? A nuclear device or dirty bomb smuggled into some city would do the trick. there wouldn’t be a hidey hole on this globe that would be safe for the perpetrators of such an event. Lets hope to gawd it never comes to that.
– In other words, consider, particularly if Iraq continues onward successfully to a stable future, that we may be the victims of “early success”. The alternative, inaction, may now be a much uglier reality, had we chosen that path.
Lisa:
No we were not down with this war like that one. Why in that one FDR told the press that they could censure themselves or he would censure them. Dead GIs were not shown. Every long distanced phone call was monitored. Gas was rationed, men were drafted and if you did not like it that was just too bad.
And yes, we do have that tradition of lambasting leaders, but when it is the only tradition, it becomes a bit self defeating. For instance if an American president is on one side of a fight and a mass murdering homicical maniac dictator is on the other side of the fight…Americans should just kind of know which one to root for.
#118: Make that “some on the left” Rob. Lots of us are not down for religious fundies. That includes the ones who wear keffiyehs and have a predilection for goats. And we have been paying a tiny bit of attention to the decades of bullshit that comes out of Israel: An Israeli guard shoots and kills a man strapped with explosives and in 24 hours that man has become an elderly man with his wife, daughter and three newborn grandchildren innocently shot in their living room while watching American Idol.
I take exception to the idea that we all fell for that crap. I am skeptical of our government’s propaganda and ham-handed jingoism. However, that does not mean that I believe what any old Taleem, Dhakir, and Hasheem says.
BBH:
That is right, that would build that kind of fire. And what do you think Americans would think of the leader that just let that happen in order to get that fire up? Not much. That is the problem now.
You, my dear, are an exception. You’ve got your eyes open.
#108 Rob:
That song always gives me goose-bumps. IIRC the resecional at the National Cathedral after the 9/11 attacks was that, and the service colors went out with that song playing. As I watched it I thought “We are going to war, The Battle Hymn of the Republic means we are going to war.” I tried to enlist once again, but I was too old, even to be an attorney in the Coast Guard.
(BTW – I never was enlisted, I just tried twice when I was in my thirties, after the shame got to be too much. So now I do the USCGAux thing.)
Mikey, I still stand by my #104.
Yours is great romantic feelings, but like I said, in real life nations would like to do their own thing, corresponding to their cultures, histories etc…
And if someone interferes, the insurgency and unnecessary death will follow.
Now, are you curious how close it is to the fantasies of Bolsheviks?
Lisa:
Jingoism? Like when Pelosi says that the only reason our soldiers are winning in Iraq is the “goodwill” of the Iranians?
I was a Democrat for years. I was even around for the antiwar movement during Viet Nam. I remember leftist leaders on campus singing the praises of the Khmer Rouge and Mao. The left has no problem with jingoism, as long as it is their kind of jingoism.
Sashal:
Do their own thing? Like being piled into a mass grave?
And yet the people you elected to Congress and the Senate bought into it. It must have gained enough buy-in among their electorate for them to mouth it.
And that, of course, is immutable. Which is why we’re so worried about German militarism and Japanese imperialism these days.
And shove your bolshevik crap up your ass. You’ve just said the American ideals, the essence of the American soul, is bolshevik.
Sashal,
With respect to the feelings of Iraqis under Saddam, I am reminded of a film I saw a few years back called About Baghdad. The filmmakers were all very anti-war, and went around Baghdad in late 2003 filming life on the ground. The most interesting bit was at the end of the movie, when these guys are being driven around in a taxi and are talking to the driver about whether or not it was good that the Americans invaded, and so on.
The driver lit up – he pulled over and stopped the car, and stopped it to make his point. I can’t remember the exact quote, but it was something along the lines that ‘Of course I don’t like that the Americans are here, but you have no idea what it was like under Saddam. We would have made a deal with the devil himself to get rid of Saddam.’
In general, I appreciate some of the concern underlying your sentiment, but consider when a nation with more than half the world’s military budget and a quarter of global GDP gets into a quasi-isolationist perspective, it is a might short step to just installing a raft of authoritarian dictatorships around the world to keep the natives quiet. And with the preponderance of force we have available, you should be glad we don’t opt for that course of action – otherwise we would be buying peace for our 300+ million at the expense of condemning how many billion to life under the boot heel.
BRD
George Strait ain’t no Bolshevik. Heather Locklear neither. These ones I know for sure, but I bet there are lots more.
are you saying,Rob, that interfering in other poeple affairs is American thing ?
A funny thing just happened. I am in a bar, and as I was going to the lav I saw a little frog on the floor. No idea how it got in. I went and grabbed an empty glass and a couple of napkins and was able to get it back outside to the shrubbery. May it have a long, insect-eating life.
That is like totally good luck. Buy a lottery ticket. You’re gold, dude.
” Imagine yourself an Iraqi, who peacefully harvests the field near Basrah, would you still like the invasion even if you hated your dictator, even after the accident bomb would kill your daughter?”
sashal, there’s a moral difference between the accidental death of a civilian during a military action, and that same young girl being raped in front of the father by the dictator’s son, and then slowly lowering the father into a shredding machine, and then shooting the daughter in the back of the head.
Oh, and then charging Mom for the bullet.
Capice?
hf #143,
Heather just does not know how frigging Bolshevik she is.
Ignorance is no excuse
Imagine yourself a (shia) Marsh Arab, and the government coming in to drain your marsh in order to deprive you of both a livelihood and a place to live. Wouldn’t you hate someone who came and fixed all of that? More than the dictator who ruined your life in an attempt to destroy your family?
Oh yeah well say that to her face. She’d totally flash her eyes at you and… hold it and hold it and… cut. And then she’d probably put on her iPod til her next take.
Lisa @ 124.
Most of America’s wars have not been WWII. That level of mobilization was unprecedented for the US. If WWI had lasted beyond a year for the US you would have an example. Even the US civil war wasn’t quite the same. Most of the wars the US has been in (after the Revolution) have been fought with the regular Army and a few volunteers. The two wars post WWII (Korea and Vietnam) were unusual wars also.
Aside from the sheer numbers involved, this war is a normal US war; regulars and reserves/national guard, not a draft, no more than the standing forces. It is a Kipling sort of war in that regard.
#132: BBH…man I hope that the difficulty of the Iraq war before the surge began to do its magic is lesson enough to convince us that this is not a game of SoCom.
And I hope that should the next president say “hey, we HAVE to do something about Iran – fer real fer real” that we will be convinced not just to say “sure….why not” but actually be active participants. The “go ahead, knock yerself out” kind of support for a war has proven to be insufficient.
#137 sashal – you do not understand the American character, which leads you to a great confusion about this land and its people. There is a difference between having ideals and mouthing them for propaganda. America has ideals and tries, as best as humans can, to actually live up to them.
And the ideals are written in the Declaration of Independence: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
The most radical, crusading ideals ever to be put to paper. And they are not just given lipe-service, Americans believe them. That is what all of the fuss is about. It isn’t a propaganda line from the kremlin, it is in the blood-line of the people.
Mike, I agree that you should buy a lotto ticket. Fuck it, go for the powerball. Good luck, and may your ex-wives refrain from suing you for a cut.
Darn tags. Darn beer.
“Comment by Lisa on 5/30 @ 8:24 pm #
#132: BBH…man I hope that the difficulty of the Iraq war before the surge began to do its magic is lesson enough to convince us that this is not a game of SoCom.”
Never read about the Civil War, Lisa?
WW I?
WW II?
Any war, ever?
“No campaign plan survives first contact with the enemyâ€Â
-Carl von Clausewitz
Thanks Lisa but I’ve never been married. A bit late in the evening for a lotto ticket, maybe next Tuesday.
“It is a Kipling sort of war in that regard.”
Hmmm, never thought of it in those terms.
I wonder if they still call RSMs “old sweats”……
#157: No, I only read Marx and the sex advice in Cosmo. Why do you ask?
#158 N. O’Brain – the post WWI/WWII settlement is dead. We are back in Kipling’s World: troopers on the tide, frigates keeping sea-lanes open, punitive expeditions to Lower Revoltia or East Absurdistan, sovreignty being where a nation can enforce it no matter what the maps and diplomats say.
“You all love the screw-guns – and the screw-guns, they love you.”
http://www.io.com/tog/extra/kipsgun.html
I swear to ghod if I hit the lottery, I’m buy my son, Matt the Marine, an 1911 A1.
They have some really nice old Marine holsters out there, too fo the 45.
He’s going to the sandbox toward the end of the year, for a 7 month deployment.
Now that we are venturing into very admirable war-history scholarship territory, I am feeling my eyes glaze over like when my step-dad would be watching an afternoon of shows on German U-Boats or telling me about a book he was reading on the Battle of the Bulge or Heinrich von Vietinghoff’s surrender to the allies. Thus, though a leftist crank such as myself would do well to avidly follow this thread, I am going to nip off with my neighbor to the Palace of Wonders. Supposedly Trixie Little and the Evil Hate Monkey are going to make an appearance. Squee!
Happy weekend, lovely ladies and gentlemen. As always, it has been a pleasure.
N. O’Brain – then good luck and God speed go with Matt.
My brother Matt has been to Afghanistan and the sandbox.
To mangle an old Irish blessing, “May johnny jihadi learn he is there two days after he leaves.”
– dosvidonia droog Meh-lisa… have a good one.
And a good evening to you Lisa.
But if you do not know war, you do not why things are the way they are. The US has forces in Germany, and Japan, and South Korea. But not knowing war you cannot know why they are there, or why they should still be there. War is a very big thing, too big to ignore, because it explains a lot.
Like why Britain was very, very sensitive about who was the lord over the Low Countries. And why the independence of Belgium was worth WWI. Ignoring history is the first step to renouncing a future.
And if I may come back to something I wrote many hours ago: The greatest damage Europe suffered wasn’t the casualties of the Great War, it was losing that inspiration to do right because it was simply the right, honorable, thing to do.
That is a truly transnational ideal. Why isn’t that stressed by the avowedly transntional? Perhaps they do not want people striving for an inspiration, but rather drudging bureaucratically. Easier to control bureaucrats than cowboys, I guess.
Yours is great romantic feelings, but like I said, in real life nations would like to do their own thing, corresponding to their cultures, histories etc…
And that is real nice. Until your own thing starts to cramp my own things style too much, then somebody is gonna get curb stomped into the dumpster of history.
are you saying,Rob, that interfering in other poeple affairs is American thing ?
…
Heather just does not know how frigging Bolshevik she is.
Ignorance is no excuse
Indeed. I realize Russian history probably starts with Bolshevism, and teaches you all about American interference, but history actually started before the Russian Revolution, dude. Trotsky wasn’t a son of Noah. History is mostly full of people who kicked other peoples ass. Peaceful surrendery types don’t get a whole lot of notice.
– Actually peaceful surrender types are natures “sacrificial stunt dummies”, and it takes a lot of them to keep things going, because the tyrants use them up so damn fast. But the pays good, if short lived.
We had a Russian Foreign exchange student in our house for a year. Excellent student. Very serious about academics and personal fitness. Outwardly friendly. Most self-centered, narcissistic person I’ve ever known.
Look back at all of sashal’s comments. You’ll get two things:
sashal hates him some Bush, and sashal loves him some sashal.
That’s all you need to know.
Says who? The US was, for all practical intents and purposes, at a state of war with Germany before Pearl Harbor. US ships and planes were fighting German subs in the Atlantic. FDR had sat down with Churchill and planned what was going to happen once the US entered the war, and that was concentrate on attacking Germany.
That’s because, first, there’s no need to go to that length anymore, and second, the US system has gotten so bueracratized that there’s no way anything like that is feasible anymore. Ask Americans to pay $8.00 a gallon for gas and drive scooters to work and put up ugly wind turbines in people’s back yards and all of a sudden all that talk about Global Warming isn’t so important anymore. Ask Americans to put some time, effort, and attention into assisting the education of their children and all of a sudden all the talk about a failing educational system isn’t important anymore.
Sashal,
I understand where you’re going when you dread the US interfering in other countries internal affairs merely because we can. I certainly despise European meddling in American internal affairs, for the greater “good”. I don’t necessarily agree with you in that I can think of extreme cases where I believe the US should interfere in purely internal affairs, such as the Rwandan genocide, but I believe the US would be wrong to intervene absent an extreme internal situation.
Because of the breach of cease-fire resolutions, however, US intervention in Iraq wasn’t interference in Iraqi internal affairs. It may be that this is a fig leaf, like Capone’s tax evasion, but this is a real geopolitical justification. Likewise, due to their warfare against the United States (through terrorist proxies), I feel the US would be justified in interfering in Iran or Syria. The same doesn’t apply to Sudan, Burma, or Zimbabwe; in each case, that would be US interference in purely internal matters (but that doesn’t mean we can’t apply political pressure in favor of democracy and human rights).
Now that we’ve established a reason to go in, do we just remove the dictator and leave the place to anarchy, do we install a friendly autocrat in place, or do we attempt to install a democratic government? Which is the Afghani farmer whose second cousin got accidentally killed by an American airstrike going to prefer? Installing democracy isn’t a justification (or at least a sole justification) for going in, but its the right thing to do once we’re there.
Yours is great romantic feelings, but like I said, in real life nations would like to do their own thing, corresponding to their cultures, histories etc…
Never lose the inspiration to be better than who you are, never lose the call to be unselfish, to be generous. Voluntarily helping the stranger makes for a strong society, a civilized society, a society worth living in.
Great work with this one, nicelly done!
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