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Obama's "small town" comments in a "change" election [Karl]

Q&O’s McQ looks at the broader context of Obama’s comments about voters in small towns in the heartland clinging to guns, religion, anti-trade, anti-immigrant and racist views due to the last 25 years of economic policy:

Now, it’s clear to me, given the full quote that Obama’s talking about why some voters in PA are skeptical about political promises and government in general. And they’re equally skeptical about who is delivering this message of political “hope” (his point about demographics). Because, given the promises of successive politicians of both parties who’ve gone on to the White House, the voters have seen nothing change. The same problems plague the same areas.

***

Of course, as those in PA have seen, government hasn’t fixed the job problem because government can’t fix the job problem. Not that Obama, like that line of politicians who came before him, isn’t going to promise to do so. Of course he is. It’s that Obama is claiming to be different. Obama is the “wish fulfiller”. You know, “Yes, we can” and all that rot. That’s his claim. “Hope and change” will make it all come true. In fact, Obama ought to actually go to work for Disney.

As noted earlier, Pennsylvania is not as bad off as Obama suggests.  But McQ’s take, when juxtaposed with the elitism underlying Obama’s comments, raises an interesting question.

Since the end of WWII, the US has tended to have “change” elections every 16 years or so, narrowly won in each case by Democrats — JFK, Carter and Clinton.  The current cycle has been shaping up to fall into that general pattern.

But compare the images of those winning candidates to those of losing Democratic nominees like George McGovern, Michael Dukakis and John F. Kerry.  It may be most instructive to compare the image of JFK with that of John F. Kerry.  The latter certainly tried to make himself into an echo of the former, down to stressing his middle initial.  But what distinguishes the skipper of PT-109 from the skipper of PCF-60 is that Kennedy — for all of his wealth — did not carry the baggage of the New Left with him.  Kennedy ran as a Cold Warrior, hyping a “missile gap”; cultural issues like gun rights and abortion were not on the table.  Carter unapologetically touted that he was a born again Christian.  Clinton cut his political teeth as an antiwar activist and McGovernite, but ran as a “New Democrat” (yet never won the popular vote, even in peacetime).

In this cycle, voters have seen Obama as a more strongly religious person than every other major presidential hopeful but Mitt Romney — and presumably Mike Huckabee, but neither of thse Republicans remain in the race.  Obama has made a series of faith-based appeals in the course of his campaign.  He has been campaigning as a “regular guy.”  But his relationship with the noxious Rev. Jeremiah Wright, followed by his condescending remarks to limousine liberals in San Francisco about “small town” people in the heartland, present an image that looks increasingly more like the McGovern-Dukakis-Kerry model than the JFK-Carter-Clinton model.  Can a more charismatic version of Dukakis narrowly win a “change” election?  We may be about to find out.

148 Replies to “Obama's "small town" comments in a "change" election [Karl]”

  1. Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) says:

    – Hes trying to indoctrinate what he perceives as another “class” of beer swilling, god bothering, gun toting embittered yokels into a dependent voting block in the same way the Left has manipulated the Black community for decades.

    – It won’t work, because “dependency” is not a
    Whiteys game, but he has to try. White folk do not like to be called hicks by upscale elitists either, especially by an effete class warfare mongering Socialist.

    – The Left has spent to much time licking its own balls, and believes that America is finally ripe for Nanny-state-ism.

    – They are wrong.

  2. darwins says:

    Baracky thinks we’re like Palestinians what can languish for 25 years helplessly, growing ever more bitter. No. People move on to bigger and better things before they get bitter. It’s America. Ones that don’t move, gotta figure they like it well enough all things considered. He’s such a communist or he’d have figured that out.

  3. darwins says:

    dirty patronizing communist

  4. Synova says:

    I think it’s another version of “What’s wrong with Kansas?” and the usual confusion over “why they vote against their own interests.”

    Obama thinks he knows.

    Obama is *still* wrong.

  5. N. O'Brain says:

    Newt Gingrich:

    “If you go to the most expensive private school in Hawaii and then move on to Columbia University and Harvard Law School, you may not understand normal Americans. Their beliefs are so alien to your leftwing viewpoint that you have to seek some psychological explanation for what seem to be weird ideas.

    They can’t really believe in the right to bear arms.

    They can’t really believe in traditional marriage.

    They can’t really believe in their faith in God.

    They can’t really want to enforce the law on immigration.

    Therefore, they must be “bitter” and “frustrated.”

    This is the closest Senator Obama has come to openly sharing his wife’s view that “America is a mean country”. Not since Governor Dukakis have we seen anyone so out of touch with normal Americans. It makes perfect sense that it was in a fundraiser in San Francisco that he would have shared the views he has so carefully kept hidden for the entire campaign.”

  6. N. O'Brain says:

    That was via Hot Air.

  7. Salt Lick says:

    Their beliefs are so alien to your leftwing viewpoint that you have to seek some psychological explanation…

    And therein lies the seed of the left’s intolerance for intellectual diversity and penchant for “reeducation.” Come to think of it, it’s kind of like Islam’s approach to infidels.

  8. Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) says:

    “…Come to think of it, it’s kind of like Islam’s approach to infidels.”

    – Exactly. The only real difference between the two forms of Fascism is, Islamo, is open about its goals, and simply wants to eradicate everyone thats “not them”, and the other, “International Socialism”, wants to indoctrinate, and basically enslave everyone thats “not them” under its “one world Theism/Ideology.

    – But you’d be just as fucking dead, either way.

  9. Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) says:

    – The Left could no longer survive in Post cold war Russia, or some of its other haunts world wide with the fall of Marxism/Communism, and Cuba sucks, so they all moved their snake oil wagons to America’s shores where its still safe to be a complete fucking idiot.

    – That will chanmge with time.

  10. Sean M. says:

    Clinton cut his political teeth as an antiwar activist and McGovernite, but ran as a “New Democrat” (yet never won the popular vote, even in peacetime).

    I’m assuming you mean that he never won a majority of the popular vote (i.e. 51% or more).

  11. Ric Locke says:

    – That will chanmge with time.

    Yes.
    Here’s to the Great Experiment!
    May it someday be repeated!
    Skoal!

    Regards,
    Ric

  12. TomH says:

    I see this as an extension to his typical white person concept. Another problem for him to fix.

  13. TomH says:

    One more thing. Obama’s name anagrammed can be “Sambo bans race haiku.” See, he means well.

  14. McGehee says:

    I’m assuming you mean that he never won a majority of the popular vote (i.e. 51% or more).

    A majority is actually “50% plus one,” though if the total number is odd that would actually technically be 50% plus one-half.

    Which, when we’re talking voters, that’s kinda messy.

  15. Sean M. says:

    Good point, McGehee. I should make sure I know what I’m talking about before I go correcting people. Especially on little technicalities.

  16. Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) says:

    – Its to laugh. If they lose the popular vote then the whole Constitutional framework depends on supporting the Electoral college.

    – If they lose the Electoral college, then the whole future of American Democracy depends on protecting the popular vote as the only right way to decide elections.

    – If they lose both then its got to be because of voting irregularities., and if all else fails then they’ll just settle for a garden variety coup.

    – What a bunch of fucking assholes.

  17. MarkJ says:

    Should we set up a “Morlocks for McCain” organization now that Obama is exclusively catering to the “Eloi demographic?”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Time_Machine

  18. McGehee says:

    I should make sure I know what I’m talking about before I go correcting people. Especially on little technicalities.

    Indeed you should. ;-)

  19. McGehee says:

    …Hey, wait a minute!!!

  20. Ardie says:

    Most of the rustic whites I have met are just as Obama describes them–perhaps worse. Their bitterness is trained to feed off of racism which makes them irrational (no wonder they voted for a black-out drunk). Right now their savior, the great white dope, McCain, has been getting a free ride. I contribute to Vietnam Veterans Against John McCain. Just wait until we swift-boat the collaborator. He is going to do down like a cheap card table.

  21. Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) says:

    “….He is going to do[sic] down like a cheap card table.

    – Yes.Verily Obama is going down faster than a prom dress in the back seat of a chevy. But he’ll take as many of those god-bothering, bible thumping fly-over hicks as he can with him.

    – Face it. You had a free pass in this election, and all by you pointed little bigoted elitist heads you figured out how to turn gold into shit.

    – Way to go SicFrogs. Nice move.

  22. Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) says:

    – Here….stick a close italic tab up in there some where…..*snort*.

  23. Mikey NTH says:

    Right, Ardie. We’ll see about that. You’ve had how long to get all of that together, and still you haven’t kept GWB out of the White House or JSM out of the Senate?

    Your threats sound very idle, very ‘Bander Log’ about the great things you will eventually do. Meanwhile Sens. Clinton and Obama are giving speeches to explain what they just said in previous speeches.

    To quote ‘I’m quaking in my slippers’.

  24. MC says:

    …charismatic version of Dukakis…

    There’s something either oxymoronish about this or my balls just tied themselves in a knot. I’m going to walk around for a minute…

  25. Pablo says:

    I contribute to Vietnam Veterans Against John McCain. Just wait until we swift-boat the collaborator.

    Great idea! In fact, you should go ahead and go all in on that strategy now. That one’s definitely a winner. Tell all your friends to contribute too!

  26. thor says:

    Did Obama say something that made the R-wingies cry? I like it when the pot gets stirred and the channeling and projecting starts up.

    This is going to be a vintage election year for comedy. A Huey Newton versus Newt Gingrich battle royale!

  27. Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) says:

    – Tell me again how the left, which comprises, at the most, 20 – 30% of the population, intends to spend all the time between now and September alienating every voting block in the country, including even half of their own gaggle, and then expects to win the election?

    – Must be that “new math” thingy, as darwins would day.

  28. Ardie says:

    Don’t get your hopes up Republicans. According to CNN (April 2, 2008) the “McCain campaign said Wednesday the Arizona senator’s medical records will no longer be released by April 15” and may release them in May. Well, if your senile war hero John McCain is really healthy and not on his last leg, why not release all of his medical records now?

  29. darwins says:

    little pinko houses for you and me I think, thor. It’s very troubling.

  30. darwins says:

    Baracky’s AIDS will catch up to him way before anything happens to McCain I bet, Ardie.

  31. Pablo says:

    I don’t think the R-wingies are Baracky’s problem on this one, thor. Those who were thinking about voting for him until he explained why they’re paranoid, superstitious bigots, however…

  32. Pablo says:

    Yeah, May is way, way too late to have a look at a guy’s medical records. I can’t vote in November for a guy who’s medical records I don’t have by tax day!

  33. Ric Locke says:

    Well, Ardie, to tell you the truth I personally don’t have any “hopes”. But watching you guys trying to decide between Robert Mugabe and Benazir Bhutto, “senile” is starting to look better and better. At least it’s neither automatically destructive nor too corrupt for Pakistanis to tolerate.

    But I rather imagine that if the Libertarian alternative “None of the Above is Acceptable” were on the ballot, it would sweep forty-nine states. You may choose the fiftieth for yourself.

    Regards,
    Ric

  34. Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) says:

    – The only state the Left will win is the state of San Francisco, and even thats ify at this point.

  35. Ardie says:

    Anyone who clings to a gun, the Bible, and nativism; who having seen their state devastated by Milton Friedman’s disaster capitalism, ain’t going to vote for either Hillary or Obama. These rustics are going to do what rustics do: vote against their economic interests over some dumb issue like “who is more patriotic”. America has become irrational. Its been this way for almost 8 years. Who then better than a senile war hero for President, who is an economic imbecile, a warmonger, and calls his wife a c%$# in public.

  36. darwins says:

    Ardie is teh patrioticest one!

  37. Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) says:

    – Keep listening to those voices inside your head Ardie. Somehow at the 11th hour the great Marxist savior will yet rise out of the political pumpkin patch and rescue the day.

    – We can tell how absolute your faith is, simply because you have to find some shred of hope by visiting opposition blogs and speaking delusion to the ignimoniou7s situation the Left has managed to work itself into.

    – We don’t feel your pain. But we do appreciate it for our enjoyment.

    – Whine on Komrad, whine on.

  38. darwins says:

    It’s so really clear now that Baracky didn’t want to wear his flag pin cause he was afraid his friends would laugh at him. He really likes to think he fits right in with the cool kids.

  39. thor says:

    #

    Comment by Pablo on 4/12 @ 11:01 pm #

    I don’t think the R-wingies are Baracky’s problem on this one, thor. Those who were thinking about voting for him until he explained why they’re paranoid, superstitious bigots, however…

    When people hijack something Obama said and carry toward meeting their own ends it only makes the guy look better. Obammer is little bit of a left-wing kook but he’s not the left-wing loon machine that some on the right so desperately want and try to make him out to be. Now Obama will get gobs of air time when he further explains what he meant and sooner or later people will just tire of the right (and Hillary) trying to play the gotcha game with Obama. Barack Obama is a middle-of-the-road liberal Democrat and the more TV time he gets to define himself as such he will use. I think the slime machine will fail against Obama because in the end he’s a solid enough person of moral standing.

  40. darwins says:

    He slavers for genocide, thor. He gets point off for that I think.

  41. darwins says:

    oh. *a point* off for that… and also he’s a very angry person besides. He lacks equanimity you could say.

  42. Spies, Brigands, and Pirates says:

    Did Obama say something that made the R-wingies cry?

    Hint: “Crying” and “pissing themselves with helpless laughter at the latest Obama self-beclowning” are two entirely different emotional states, thor.

    Might want to have your dosage checked.

  43. Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) says:

    “….because in the end he’s a solid enough person of moral standing.”

    – In other words, don’t pay any attention to the small minded petty bigotry, class and race warfare things he says on a daily basis, and Black apartheid church he belongs to, its just a good person saying “god damn America”.

    – Just adore our fearless cult leader like we do, because if you don’t you’re just a dumb hick.

    – Yeah. Check. Got it.

  44. thor says:

    It’s my prediction, and it’s only a prediction mind you, that if Obama gets elected in the general he’ll be a huge disappointment to the Left. From reading the left-wingers whining weenie opinions they’re projecting way too much liberalism onto the man. We’ll see in the end, but the right-wingers paint the guy as a whitey hater, which is pretty easy to disbelieve and will be even easier to disprove, at the same time as the leftards are painting him with expectations of their agenda. Obama is bound to make them cry and go further emo. A Code Pink anti-Obama rally will surely be a thing to behold, and it’s gonna happen, I thinks.

  45. Ardie says:

    According to the late Col. Hackworth, a soldier’s soldier, and not a putz like Gen. “Peaches” Patraeus, John McCain didn’t really earn his medals. Let’s hope the MSM is interested in exposing America’s Rhinestone senile war hero. [Hey, Big Bang Hunter, if yer lurking, I keep the safety off on my M1911 when I am around Repubicans.]

  46. thor says:

    BBH, Obama didn’t say any of that “goddamn America” crap, OK. Yeah, his weirdo pastor did, as if I frickin’ care what some Southside Chicago pastor says. You’ve mined Obama’s affiliation with the Jeremiah-homo for all it’s worth. OK, job well done. Now, really, can’t you sort’a move on to something more relevant.

  47. darwins says:

    Obama opposes trade with Colombia but wants to end the embargo with Cuba. That’s relevant cause Colombia is our bestest friend in South America. Baracky says he wants to restore our position in the world but then bitchslaps our best friend and bats his eyelashes at Cuban dictators. He’s a very sick man. And also he hates white people.

  48. Spies, Brigands, and Pirates says:

    Yeah, his weirdo pastor did, as if I frickin’ care what some Southside Chicago pastor says.

    Got it. And if it turned out that McCain had been attending a Christian Identity church for 20 years, you’d be perfectly okay with that as well. Right?

    You don’t even believe your own bullshit, thor.

    Don’t expect anyone else to believe it.

  49. thor says:

    And there you go, very legitimate attacks on Baracky’s positions, which I’m not sure too many of are hardened. I think Baracky says a lot of what some people want to hear. Angry black people want to hear that Barack hates white folk.

  50. darwins says:

    Oh. Well then I take it back.

  51. RTO Trainer says:

    Hackworth was a hack.

  52. Ardie says:

    Senator Obama doesn’t hate normal white people (the ones who are not afraid to eat green vegetables). He just doesn’t like the whites who wear bed sheets and wave the Stars & Bars; who make up the bulk of the Republican Party (former Dixiecrats).

  53. Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) says:

    “[Hey, Big Bang Hunter, if yer lurking, I keep the safety off on my M1911 when I am around Repubicans.]”

    – Don’t blame you moonbat. If I belonged to that gaggle of soft-Marxist America hating morons you do, I’d be looking over my shoulder too.

    – But wait. I thought you SecProggs were against gun ownership? What gives? Maybe in your paranoia you think that eventually people will have had enough of your seditious crap, and hunt you down like some sort of infectious rodents.

    – And btw. As usual your tolerance is hanging out all over the place. I’m pretty sure your comment is the very first mention of violence on this blog in many moons, and the last case was another Left wing delusional nut case. Real high class sparky. But then your idiotarian mask slipped a long time ago. Bon appitite’.

  54. thor says:

    You bitter, gun-stroking white folk! Let my Obamigger alone!

    You people! You typical people! Ya’d even freakin’ burn John McCain on a wooden cross if I wasn’t here to stop ya. You’re attack-mode howlers. God bless you. I love ya. Jesus loves you. Dick Cheney would accidentally shoot each and every one of ya. Group hug.

  55. Ardie says:

    John McCain: “And then I don’t think Americans are concerned if we’re there for 100 years or 1,000 years or 10,000 years. What they care about is a sacrifice of our most precious treasure, and that’s American blood.”

    You’re crazy Big John (or is it Big Mac?). America doesn’t want to have her finest warriors shed their precious blood for worthless Iraqi soil. Are you sure we didn’t invade Iraq for the oil, John, some 526 years worth?

    Yeah, I wonder who the NCOs and the grunts will vote for this time? I bet they will vote for anyone who says, “You are leaving this rat-hole tomorrow to be with your families.”

  56. Ardie says:

    “We are continuing this policy in bleeding America to the point of bankruptcy. Allah willing, and nothing is too great for Allah.” — Osama bin Laden

    Seriously, you Reich-wingers can’t be true patriots and vote for collaborator McCain, aka, “Song Bird”. You are doing what bin Laden wants, bleeding America dry with the Republican policies of borrowing and spending. That makes you terrorists.

  57. darwins says:

    Oh hey! I founded one of the bitter peoples. You want you can sign an affidavit and we can send it to Baracky.

  58. RTO Trainer says:

    “I bet they will vote for anyone who says, “You are leaving this rat-hole tomorrow to be with your families.”

    You’ll lose.

  59. darwins says:

    Yes. Those 3ID re-enlistment numbers really a lot refute Ardie’s little theory.

  60. thor says:

    Hey, RTO, thanks for your service and many sacrifices for our country.

  61. Ardie says:

    Actually darwins sweetie they don’t. Men reenlist to be with their comrades–not to be errand boys for Bush and the traitors who support him.

  62. darwins says:

    Hmmm. I guess we’d have to see what Baracky’s reenlistment rates would be.

  63. RTO Trainer says:

    “We are continuing this policy in bleeding America to the point of bankruptcy.”

    You and he are fools.

    If we weren’t paying what we have for the war, we’d have made virtually no dent in the budget. We’ve been averaging $108bn/year and the deficits are greater than that.

    On the other hand, if we weren’t paying for Social Security, we’d have had budet surpluses all the way back to 1992.

  64. RTO Trainer says:

    Thor, I wouldn’t do it if I didn’t love doing it.

    Thank you.

  65. Pablo says:

    According to the late Col. Hackworth, a soldier’s soldier, and not a putz like Gen. “Peaches” Patraeus, John McCain didn’t really earn his medals.

    Which ones? Why not? Come on, Ardie, sell it! Let’s get all this front and center.

  66. Pablo says:

    Oooh! I like the “Peaches” bit. Peaches Betrayus! Definitely run with that. I’ll bet you can get a decent rate in the New York Times.

  67. Pablo says:

    Oh, that’s good stuff, Ardie. Definitely run with that. CHANGE IS A’COMING!!

  68. RTO Trainer says:

    Re-enlistments through the 90’s were 50-odd percent of goal.

  69. Ardie says:

    Hey, Pablo, that is the actually the nick of Patraeus. The Teflon general with a liking for the limelight

  70. darwins says:

    Did Baracky earn his signature achievement of delivering the keynote address at the Democratic convention? Oh yes cause him’s so clean and articulate is why.

  71. darwins says:

    Hmmm. Uhoes. RTO suggests I think that Baracky better ease back plans for his light-bulb changing national service squad cause him’s gonna have trouble getting and keeping soldiers, sounds like.

  72. Ardie says:

    Pablo: Face it, if McCain’s actual military record were covered day in and day out by the press, including his abusive behavior, only people like you would vote for him. Call it a sympathy vote.

  73. darwins says:

    *Uhohes* I meant… Baracky I think has this idea of how things are gonna be that isn’t exactly accurate I don’t think cause the peoples what find him so inspiring aren’t the people he’s gonna need help from.

  74. RTO Trainer says:

    I’d like to see Ardie go through SERE school. He’d learn something he has no idea of now and something Hackworth should known. In fact I’ll go so far as to say Hackworth did know but, hack that he was, chose not to admit to it for the proper political spin for his “story.”

  75. RTO Trainer says:

    One factor in high retention is that there is a war on. That’s counter-intuitive to many and positively mindblowing to the hard-left. But we sign up to serve and this is the time for that.

  76. Pablo says:

    Run with it Ardie. It’ll be a landslide! You go, boy!

    What popping noise? I dunno, but it definitely isn’t popcorn. Don’t you worry about it. You’ve got a message to spread.

  77. Ardie says:

    A lot of good SERE did McCain. That is why fellow POWS nicknamed him “Song Bird”. Tweet, tweet, tweet went McCain to his NVA captors who never laid a hand on him.

  78. darwins says:

    They broked his teef.

  79. Pablo says:

    Tweet, tweet, tweet went McCain to his NVA captors who never laid a hand on him.

    Do you need some help contacting the media, Ardie? That is front page, above the fold stuff right there. Have you let the Messiah camp know about this?

  80. and that arm thing? racquetball accident.

  81. Pablo says:

    It’s a good think Hackworth’s dead though, because that isn’t what he said. We can keep that part quiet.

  82. RTO Trainer says:

    It’s you that need SERE school, Ardie. You’d learn one very important lesson.

  83. Ardie says:

    “When you start losing midgrade officers and noncommissioned officers, you’re talking a decade to replace them.” — Gen. Casey

    From the same article in the WSJ:

    The effort comes amid mounting evidence that the long wars are pushing many young officers out of the Army. The number of West Point graduates leaving the military as soon as their initial tours are up is at a 25-year high. Nearly half of the academy’s class of 2001 left active duty in 2006, compared with a normal five-year dropout rate of 10% to 30%, according to Cindy Williams, a military-manpower expert at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.”

  84. Ardie says:

    Pablo: I know you imagine McCain is a great and noteworthy hero (when he is not flip-flopping). With only 23 missions under his belt and crashing his 5th aircraft, he must really impress you–like he is some kind of Lieutenant General Lewis Burwell “Chesty” Puller, USMC. Well he ain’t. He is just a lying Republican big mouth who had a “war experience” but ain’t no hero.

  85. Sean M. says:

    and that arm thing? racquetball accident.

    No, wasn’t it from skiing?

    Oh, wait

  86. darwins says:

    Baracky looked so funny questioning Petraeus. Petraeus was so cool how he kept a straight face.

  87. Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) says:

    – I guess we could only wish he was like one of your hero’s. Murtha, huh Ardie.

    – Hang on to the dream Ardie. Maybe it will help you stay as fucked in the head as you are when you get your Socialist asses kicked to the curb yet again this fall.

  88. Ardie says:

    Sean M. Arm thing? Both arms and a leg? Here is the real truth: McCain forget a most basic lesson while in flight school. When ejecting, keep both arms in. Yeah, McCain was a bonehead.

  89. . Petraeus was so cool how he kept a straight face.

    probably has lots of practice from talking to Chimpy McHitler. ;D

  90. Ardie says:

    Could anyone tell us about all the fire fights General “Peaches” Patraeus was in, engaging the enemy? I was under the impression that he mainly did yoga, gabbing his ankles for Generalissimo Arbusto (Spanish for Bush).

  91. RTO Trainer says:

    In 2005 and 2003 the Army actually had more Captains than O3 billets. In 2000 there were over 3000 unfilled O3 billets. For the 10 years prior to the war, vacanies in the thousands were normal. In the last five years, when not a surplus, the deficit has been less than 700.

    Loss rates for Majors throught eh 90’s ran at around 10% annually. Since 2002 that’s been 6.6% or less.

    In addition this is happening while growing the army. Since 2002, the Army has added almost 45,000 to the end strength which is roughly 13 Brigade equivalents.

  92. Ardie says:

    Big Bang Hunter I guess your hero is Elmer Fudd, right?

  93. RTO Trainer says:

    It’s not that Ardie doesn’t know anything, its that he knows so much that not so.

  94. Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) says:

    – RTO, better go easy on “facts”. It tends to make SecProgg dupes like Ardie go totally off the deep end.

    – No need to pile on. He has a lot of disappointment abd sadness in his future as it is.

  95. darwins says:

    I don’t think Ardie knows what he’s talking about with respect to recruiting and retention.

  96. darwins says:

    Either way, I’m sure glad there’s a new democracy in the Middle East. It’s kind of amazing to think you can point at that and say, yeah, we did that. It’s sad to think that Baracky would want us to have a hands-off approach to repressive dictatorships. Fortunately he’s unelectable.

  97. Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) says:

    – Arguments back and forth with dorks like Ardie here is a waste of everyones time. All you have to do is one simple thing with the SicFrogs.

    – Here you go Ardie. A life time deferment. Now you can stop peeing your pants, and go back to swilling mountain dew and playing War Craft.

  98. RTO Trainer says:

    Show me some numbers Ardie.

  99. Dave in SoCal says:

    Oh Ardie, you’re killing me! One would normally have to go to a middle school to hear humor of that caliber… but you’re bringing it direct to our door for free! You DA MAN, Ardie!

  100. Ardie says:

    “The Army has spent the past several years trying to buy its way out of the problem, offering captains cash bonuses of as much as $35,000 to commit to additional years of service. The program succeeded in averting a crisis, but missed its target. It persuaded 11,933 captains to commit to additional Army service, short of the goal of 14,184.”

    Oh, too bad. I got it, pay them as much as they pay those Christian Blackwater guys with the same kind of contract!

  101. darwins says:

    I almost didn’t read to the end of this post, but I’m glad I did. I’d forgotten all about that. Very sad.

  102. Dave in SoCal says:

    Oh, too bad. I got it, pay them as much as they pay those Christian Blackwater guys with the same kind of contract!

    Ardie, the SecProgg Handbook (now with laminated, drool-resistant pages) prefers that you use the term ‘Xtian’ to demonstrate your righteous contempt. “Godbags” would also have been accepted.

  103. Ardie says:

    RTO, where is your proof that the Army is doing fine with its captains and NCOs, that is, there is 100% retention?

    Yawn…

  104. Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) says:

    – Ardie. You’re not listening sparky. Its ok.You’re covered. You wi;; never have to step up and be a man. Your future as a left wing gutless cowardBOT is assured. Relax. You’ve got the magic get out of service card. Kapish home?

  105. Ardie says:

    Wow, its Big Bang Hunter. You might be the big cheese in the eyes of your toddlers and your ball and chain, but in my eyes, you’re still Elmer Fudd. Hahahaha!

  106. who in their right mind thinks that 100% retention is achievable, Ardie? and RTO is getting his numbers from AKO, which, um you’ll know if you can find them or not, I guess.

  107. darwins says:

    That’s adding value, right there.

  108. Karl says:

    Those Army numbers are not going to help Ardie much. But some people are beyond help.

  109. what, the insults, darwins? I swears Ardie annoys me most for making me feel the need to defend McCain. There’s plenty of policy things we could discuss, but nooooooo.

  110. Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) says:

    – Man. This jokers really “shitting his pants” scared. Even with a deferment hes unhinged.

    – Thats fear uncommon that you don’t see even in the cowardly ranks of the moonbat collective very often.

    – And just think Ardie. You won’t even have to shoot yourself in the ass twice with grenade launchers like your fearless leader sKerry did.

    – Just as well, because you won’t have a senile asshole like Jhimmah to pardon your sorry ass’s dishonorable discharge like horseface did.

  111. RTO Trainer says:

    Retention was 112% in 2007. It’s been over 100% since the war started.

    And recruiting; we haven’t missed a recruiting goal since 2005, but that was caught up in 2006.

  112. darwins says:

    oh. sorry. 108 was at 106…

  113. no sorry, just wanted to be sure I got that right. I’ve been mangling things today.

  114. probably payback for making RTO sit through Old Boy and Lady Vengeance the last couple nights. and Romeo et Juliette, though Ana Netrebko ain’t hard on the eyes. but the tights. *shivers*

  115. Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) says:

    – The level of the TTP troll commentary has really taken a turn for “teh stupid” lately.

    – Personally, I chalk it up to the Dem primary train wreck. This next disappointment may be too much for them to cope with. Then who will we have left to ridicule and laugh at.

  116. thor says:

    I wish someone would put their rifle’s butt in Ardie’s ass. He’d like that.

  117. He’d like that.

    probably why nobody’s done that. wouldn’t want to encourage that to hang around.

  118. Sean M. says:

    Here is the real truth: McCain forget a most basic lesson while in flight school. When ejecting, keep both arms in. Yeah, McCain was a bonehead.

    Got a link?

    And even if you’ve got one that goes to a site that claims to be authored by Vietnam vets who oppose McCain, don’t you find it the least bit hypocritical that your side bitched and moaned endlessly about the Swift Boat Vets four years ago and tried to brand them as a bunch of liars?

    Oh, no. Of course not. You’re a liberal. Consistency, hobgoblins, etc.

  119. darwins says:

    This is pretty much the sorta article Camp Baracky would be commissioning about now to smooth the way for a VP pick. Otherwise what flippin purpose does this have? So there it is I think.

  120. Mikey NTH says:

    – The level of the TTP troll commentary has really taken a turn for “teh stupid” lately.

    It’s not just the stupid, its the passive-aggressive stupid. The flexing of blog muscles (and probably beer muscles – it was Saturday night) along with the insults right from the start. If we were actually in a bar we could see this coming from long away and perhaps have the bouncer eject it. Instead we can listen to it preen and prance and befoul itself while it beclowns itself, thinking that it is really having an effect on everyone other than bemusment.

  121. TmjUtah says:

    From thor, back at #49 –

    “And there you go, very legitimate attacks on Baracky’s positions, which I’m not sure too many of are hardened. I think Baracky says a lot of what some people want to hear.

    BRILLIANT!

    I never saw that at all!

    Problem is, we already had a “Hope” guy, and he didn’t mean a fucking thing he said before, during, or after the election, either. And since History has gone ahead and started up again since September 11, 2001, if it’s all the same to you I’d rather we leave the parlor Marxists, identity pimps, and mere hacks in the big cities, universities, and Hollywood while adults get to work…

    … which would make a lot more sense if McCain hadn’t pooped out the end of the pipe.

  122. McGehee says:

    First ’twas nishtoon floating the Alzheimer’s angle. Now it’s “McCain is a traitor” from Ardie.

    I don’t like McCain and I won’t vote for him unless he does something completely unexpected between now and November (like, say, name Jeff G. as his running mate), but I have to admit I’m really looking forward to the Dems using these lines of attack against him.

    Maybe while they’re at it they can make fun of his skin cancer scar. Trifecta!

  123. Ric Locke says:

    I got away from the thread because I had things to do, including sleep, but I see it’s still breathing a little.

    Ardie does have a couple of points, though as usual with moonbats they’re misapplied to the point of eliciting raucous laughter. Look, I was there, and I’m telling you flatly: the vast and overwhelming majority of the medals handed out during the Viet Nam conflict were spurious at best. Bronze Stars were practically awards for good attendance, and the rest were downvalued proportionately. Kerry’s stunt with the Purple Hearts was a fairly extreme example, but it was by no means unheard of.

    And that, in turn, is because of the shape the military was in, in general. It had come very close to turning into a classic, Parkinsonian bureaucracy with no point other than self-maintenance, with the “fruit salad” representing points gained toward promotion, and the Selective Service System, combined with the deferments for anything that represented value or usefulness, had staffed the enlisted ranks largely with people who either bitterly resented being there or regarded “service” as a low-demand way of making a living, a slightly less passive form of welfare. It had “last war” syndrome to the point of incapacitation. I was a photo interpreter, and all of our training materials came either directly from WWII or from European recon — lots of snow, not a single sampan. The Air Force guys were studying how to shoot down MIGs (and become aces) and the best way to bomb Kreuztal, and the Army people were planning to re-do Bastogne and The Bulge and get it right this time. Relevant experience against the Japanese and Koreans was ignored, because the continual moan was that the enemy “wouldn’t stand up and fight”, i.e., engage in human-wave attacks, which we knew how to handle. We not only had no clue as to how to fight an insurgency, we had no clue that a clue was needed, and when the guys in the field did come up with something that worked it got ground through the bemedaled bureaucracy until it looked enough like European-theater small-unit tactics to satisfy the preconceptions of people who’d gotten their first bars in 1944. The exemplary image of the Viet Nam war is Lyndon and his buddies, bent over tables in the Situation Room looking at reconnaissance photography and selecting targets which they then transmitted to the guys in the field by courier. In 1944 that would have worked.

    Hackworth was one of a few who bemoaned that, but the trouble with Hackworth is that he doesn’t belong in the American military tradition at all; he’d have made an exemplary British officer during the Raj. The American experience, based on our own direct actions and observation of later events, is that imperialism doesn’t pay, it costs. Hackworth has some good and true things to say, but they’re so thoroughly imbedded in the imperialist mindset that digging them out is more like uranium enrichment than military history.

    John McCain wasn’t a particularly good pilot, nor was he a particularly good officer. He was, however, pretty damned typical of his contemporaries, which is the main reason so many people are desperately searching for credible alternatives. In the thoroughly reorganized, practically rebuilt-from-scratch post-Viet Nam U.S. military, he would have been passed over for Lieutenant Commander, gotten out, and gone into insurance sales, real estate, or politics. He deserves honor for serving at all, and especially for his time in captivity — the “Songbird” slam (which was current in the rumor mill at the time) has no useful basis, as the Vietnamese themselves make clear. I don’t like John McCain. I don’t think he will make a particularly good President. But even compared to Kerry he shines like a light, and when the alternative is a corrupt, near-solipsistic egotist and/or a machine politician who thinks he’s W.E.B. DuBois he looks like George Washington.

    Regards,
    Ric

  124. Ardie says:

    No matter how the reich slices it the fact the McCain’s dad was a four star Admiral says a lot about why he made it through Annapolis, Navy flight school, and was given special treatment (including a young nurse) at the Hanoi Hilton.

    And by the way, Col. Hackworth’s remarks were not off course.

    It is rather a lame argument to suggest that Kerry, who was swift-boated by Republican Party thugs (sources of money for SBVT came from three prominent Texas Republican donors), will somehow make McCain look like good timber for a president despite his age, his personality disorder, his boneheadedness, his flip-flopping, and his phony military record.

    One can only pray that McCain and his stooges will self-consume themselves with their hated.

  125. Pablo says:

    No matter how the reich slices it…

    Brilliant! Definitely go with the implication of Nazi support for Senator McTraitor. Do you need some ad money to get your message out? I could maybe help out a little. And I’ll pay triple if you can get “I’m Barack Obama, and I approve this message” attached to the theme.

    One can only pray that McCain and his stooges will self-consume themselves with their hated.[sic]

    Just don’t beat them to the punch, Ardie.

  126. B Moe says:

    …the fact the McCain’s dad was a four star Admiral says a lot about why he made it through Annapolis, Navy flight school…

    Now all of a sudden they are outraged, outraged!, at someone using political connections to get into combat?

  127. McGehee says:

    B Moe, now you’re about to make me fall off my chair and frighten the cats.

    They’re already more nervous than usual after Ardsgaine’s “Duncan Idaho potatoes” comment in that other thread.

  128. N. O'Brain says:

    “Comment by Ardie on 4/13 @ 12:06 am #

    Yeah, I wonder who the NCOs and the grunts will vote for this time? I bet they will vote for anyone who says, “You are leaving this rat-hole tomorrow to be with your families.””

    I bet you’re a witless fucktard who has no idea what he/she/it is talking about.

    My son is a Marine, and within the last two weeks told me he knows not one Marine who would vote for either Hillary! or Obama.

    BTW, snotweasel, he is scheduled to be going to Iraq.

  129. N. O'Brain says:

    “But even compared to Kerry he shines like a light, and when the alternative is a corrupt, near-solipsistic egotist and/or a machine politician who thinks he’s W.E.B. DuBois he looks like George Washington.

    Regards,
    Ric”

    Compared to Kerry he’s a fucking supernova.

  130. N. O'Brain says:

    Comment by Ardie on 4/13 @ 10:08 am #

    What’s your MOS, ardie?

  131. Rusty says:

    Ardie, there’s someone I’d like you to meet. Datadave meet Ardie. Ardie meet datadave. Somoe once told the both of you, when you were sixteen, you were very bright. You’re still very bright sixteen year olds.

  132. cjd says:

    Come on, guys. Ardie has gotta be Jeff, just fucking with us on a slow Sunday, right? I mean, no one could be that stupid on purpose. We love ya, Jeff!

  133. Ric Locke says:

    Ardie, if you don’t think Hackworth is “off course” it means you are a pure-quill, out-and-out imperialist. You should have portraits, or perhaps statuettes, of G. S. Patton and S. I. Bukhovsky among your lares and penates, and burn candles to them daily.

    Regards,
    Ric

  134. Shy Town says:

    I think the diverse range of interpretations of Obama’s comments truly reflect the diversity of cultures and thought in America. My interpretation of his remark is that because voting for a candidate on the basis of his or her abstract economic policies or his or her war strategy has not helped average Americans realize how the impact of their votes facilitate the resolution of our country’s deepest issues. However, I can vote for someone who takes a specific stand as guaged by my religious or traditional values and have a better assurance of these being realized in that candidates administration. By that I mean I can vote for someone who has my same view on gun control, civil unions, stem cell research, immigration, etc.

    In the long run, these issues don’t have a major impact on our country’s overall economic strength though, do they? Of course not – these are just convenient strategic distractions to keep us again from focusing on the real issues like a failing economy and a war we cannot afford.

    I personally think Senator Obama made a great point, but you can make up your own mind which is what I urge rather than getting whipped into a frenzy by pundits, Republicans, and other anti-Obama entities who want to spin this into something that it is not. This old political tactic of character assasination shows how desperate the opposition is to find anything at all to attack this candidate, and they have been hard-pressed to come up with much. What does that tell you? Hey, let’s be careful that we don’t wreck our opportunity to have REAL and POSITIVE CHANGE in the direction our country is headed.

    God bless you all.

  135. Rob Crawford says:

    In the long run, these issues don’t have a major impact on our country’s overall economic strength though, do they? Of course not – these are just convenient strategic distractions to keep us again from focusing on the real issues like a failing economy and a war we cannot afford.

    Oh, shut the hell up.

    Why is it that Republican issues are “strategic distractions”? Could the “war we cannot afford” (I guess you don’t mean the War on Poverty) line be a strategic distraction? What about the “failing economy” line? Or the constant crap about “the rich get richer, the poor get poorer”? How about the constant barrage of lies and carefully massaged statistics telling us our health care system sucks?

    Again, it comes down to “don’t listen to what he says, just project your hopes onto him!” And if what he says is diametrically opposed to how you see this country? How you want to live your life?

    Too bad. That just means you’re in the way of the REAL and POSITIVE CHANGE.

  136. Sean M. says:

    I personally think Senator Obama made a great point, but you can make up your own mind which is what I urge rather than getting whipped into a frenzy by pundits, Republicans, and other anti-Obama entities who want to spin this into something that it is not.

    Translation: You can make up your own mind, unless you disagree with Obama, dumbass. What the hell is wrong with you, anyway?

    HOPE! CHANGE! YES WE CAN!!!1one!

  137. Pablo says:

    I think the diverse range of interpretations of Obama’s comments truly reflect the diversity of cultures and thought in America.

    I think that’s a big, fat load of postmodernist crap, and just another way of saying that people across America believe all kinds of crazy shit. And I think the people he was referring to reject his assessment.

  138. This old political tactic of character assasination shows how desperate the opposition is to find anything at all to attack this candidate, and they have been hard-pressed to come up with much. What does that tell you?

    that he has little experience to run on, just his personality.

  139. Mikey NTH says:

    Ric – no matter the quality McCain may have displayed as an officer, he still stood up and got into that cockpit and launched off a flightdeck. And then he came back for the traps. And he did it again and again.

    He has intestinal fortitude, and right now I am very satisfied with someone who is known to have that, no matter how much of a cuss he is otherwise. He isn’t a physical or moral coward; and I like that.

  140. Mikey NTH says:

    #130 N. O’Brain:
    My brother is an army major. He has been to Afghanistan and Iraq. He is voting McCain because he believes McCain won’t screw them over.

    BTW – my brother was enlisted before he went ROTC and got his bars.

  141. Rusty says:

    #136
    Being from a small town doesn’t make one stupid. Folks know when they’re being lied to. They also know when they’re being insulted. Good luck to you and your candidate.

  142. Mikey NTH says:

    #136
    Positive Change? Sure – from the man whose preacher has declaimed ‘G- D- America’. Electing that congregant president will postively result in change, but not the change you’re selling. But if you do believe…

    Wanna buy a bridge?

  143. John_Lai says:

    Obama can’t change Chicago politics. He is very much a part of it. Resko, his close tie, is on trial for corruption rings. How can OBAMA change WASHINGTON. His campaign insinuate with anger and hatred. OBAMA campaign deny voting rights of MICHIGAN, FLORIDA and hope to render their votes useless in selection of candidate to run against McCain before reinstate their delegates. His campaign create double standards and division among Americans. The population has White, Black, Latinos, Asian…Over 90% of the Black population vote for him. This is not a problem of issues by obvious racial problem. His proposed changes is almost a carbon copy of Hillary. Who is the copy cat? However the minor differences matter too. Without mandatory participation, you cannot drive down the medical cost. The health coverage will costs the taxpayers dearly. The meeting of the presidents with countries like IRAN, North Korea, and terrorist groups like HAMAS shall be a touchy matter. OBAMA does not have the credential to show us that it is anything but showcase which may have grave consequences.
    How about American cultures and values that tie people together. Did OBAMA offer anything about that? It seems to me that all he cares is money, riches and economy. Not saying that they are not important. But What is the beef in his message did not turn me on.

  144. […] JFK did not carry the baggage of the New Left with him.  Carter and Clinton were both Southerners; neither ran as McGovernite.  Moreover, Carter unapologetically touted that […]

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