Keeping all this in mind, it nonetheless does begin to look as if Iraqis may in fact have started to recover command over their own destiny, and also as if America may have helped them to do so. The surge is only a part of this story. Quite obviously, if the Sunnis of Anbar Province had not of their own volition turned on the hideous forces of al-Qaida, then no amount of extra troops could have made the difference. But some combination of the two things appears to have altered the chemistry, and not just in that province, and all the reporters and soldiers I can get hold of (who include some direly skeptical people in both categories) seem agreed on one thing: The forces of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi stink in the nostrils of the Arab world, and have beenâ€â€here I borrow some words of Thomas Paine‗in point of generalship … outwitted, and in point of fortitude outdone.” Bin Ladenism in Iraq has been dealt a stinging defeat. Surely this is something to celebrate.
Bruxism defense for your favorite progg.
–Eno. Then, world, thou hast a pair of chaps, no more;
And throw between them all the food thou hast,
They’ll grind the one the other. A&C, III.v.
Brian Eno said that? Probably he was on drugs at the time.
I think Thomas Paine could have talked me into just about anything, really.
“Second, the majority of Sunni Arabs had realized that their involvement with al-Qaida forces was not a patriotic “insurgency” but was instead a horrific mistake and had exposed their society to the most sadistic and degraded element in the entire Muslim world.”
Here, Hitchens makes it sound like these Iraqis had a moment of introspection, which would be followed by self-determination. Ridiculous.
Same thing happened the other night at Tbogg’s, when I hung around long enough that people started to like me.
Oh, and thor, of course, too.
I seem to recall that on at least one occasion, Thomas Paine was a major-league dickhead. I’ll have to look that one up.
Oh, yeah:
Frightfully decent fellow, that Thom Paine.
Serves you right, Dan, for caring what any frequenter of Tgobb thinks about you, or (indeed) about anything at all.
Oh. I’m just meaning he was persuasive is all.
“Sir! You deserve to be hung for treason or to die of a loathsome disease!
“That depends, Sir, on whether I embrace your politics or your wife.”
Top Ten Reasons Why There Will Be No Joy In Progressive Mudville This Thanksgiving:
10.Iraqis show a preference for self-government
9. Iraqi Sunnis and Shiites actually prefer NOT to descend into civil war
8. Iraqis reject Al-Qaida and their perverted hate
7. Sunnis turn on and help eliminate Al Qaida
6. Levels of violence in Iraq drop dramatically
5. Senator Reid’s statement that, “the war is lost,†may be mistaken and really refer to the democrat’s position on the war.
4. Nancy Pelosi looks even stupider, if that is possible
3. The progressive horde’s will have to find something else to be self-righteous about
2. America will have won another military conflict and perhaps helped usher democracy into the middle east (they hate it when America wins)
1. Maybe, just maybe, Bush and those nasty neo-cons were right all along
Bush is so cool. Have I said this week how proud I am I voted for him?
KATRINA!!!!!
I denounce your denunciation.
Good day, sir.
I denounce Herman Edwards, and his inability to get a first down against the Colts travel squad.
Thomas Paine talked me into going to a biker bar on a Honda. Wearing a t-shirt that read “My Other Bike Is A Yamaha”. So I step through the door and where is Thomas Paine? Riding hell-bent down the road, laughing his ass off.
Fuckstick.
Goddam metrics and their drive shafts … Thomas Paine is a wanker.
I denounce anything that might tend to get Swede’s ass kicked by a bunch of bearded, be-tatted Harley drivers.
Except the pink satin jacket. That’s right out.
I tried to play it off. You know, just standing there at the bar, holding my Zima, minding my own business.
But some people can’t leave well enough alone.
HARLEY-PHOBES and ZIMA-PHOBES. NTTAWWT.
Can you really call it a motorcycle when it has a driveshaft?
The most interesting part of Anbar is whether the lesson can be applied elsewhere: that alqaeda was turned around not by idealistically elected democratic governments, but by realistically traditional regional power structures. A dreadful outcome for the bush doctrine?
Yes, terrible. Just like when those upstart colonists took up arms.
“Yes, terrible. Just like when those upstart colonists took up arms.”
Awesome.
Goddam metrics and their drive shafts … Thomas Paine is a wanker
Don’t hate on him, JD, he spent too much time in a French prison!
Andy….Paine’s cell mate?
I knew he was a homo. Thanks, Cowboy.
And andy, success is a failure for President Bush? I love how the progtards just bastardize the language to fit Teh Narrative.
And timmah, get your hairy nutsack off of T-bagg’s nose.
“…that alqaeda was turned around not by idealistically elected democratic governments…”
Every time I think andy has peaked, he manages to one-up himself with an even more stunningly moronic statement.
“Every time I think andy has peaked, he manages to one-up himself with an even more stunningly moronic statement.”
Or maybe those anbar chiefs and militias are a classical liberal democratic ideal. Who knows. Someone above was telling me they’re like colonial farmer’s militias. So ready to bring the second amendment into effect and establish some checks and balances. Awesome.
Andy:
You are so progressive it positively hurts.
Where can I go to be trained to so passionately defend the little brown people of Iraq and then the very next moment disdain them so utterly as to suggest–nay, demand–that they’re incapable of liberalism.
Astonishing.
You. Rock.
“So ready to bring the second amendment into effect…”
See what I mean? It is a gift, I tell you.
When he digresses to the point he can no longer write, maybe he can dictate his musings to a favored wife or girlfriend and start a new religion.
“Where can I go to be trained to so passionately defend the little brown people of Iraq and then the very next moment disdain them so utterly as to suggest–nay, demand–that they’re incapable of liberalism.”
Everyone is capable of liberalism. Its that thats not how I think sunni tribal militias are run. There’s just something quite unliberal about a sheikh. By definition.
So this getting rid of AQ is a loss, in Andy’s book.
At the least it’s damned inconvenient for the ol’ quagmire/civil war narrative. Mugged by reality they are.
“So this getting rid of AQ is a loss, in Andy’s book.”
For promoters of the bush doctrine? could be awkward that the lesson was that realism-based regional chiefs defeated what the idealism based elected government couldnt. For those tribes in Anbar? Definately a good thing. Its obvious that the interests of Iraqis may not be the same as the ideologues of the US.
So, andy, define a win for us. Driving out AQ is a win only when done in an acceptable manner as decreed by the Left? No more running around like a drunken idiot with the goalposts. Define a fucking win.
“There’s just something quite unliberal about a sheikh. By definition.”
As Ric Locke pointed out awhile back, a perfectly apt translation would be “ward boss”, nothing inherently illiberal about it at all.
It’s a Democrat ward, right, B Moe? Cuz till I know that, I can’t answer your question.
“Driving out AQ is a win only when done in an acceptable manner as decreed by the Left? ”
Driving out al-qaeda is a win for Iraqis. If its not done according to the bush doctrine, but the opposite, then its not a win for the Bush Doctirne. If it vindicates foreign policy realism, not idealism, then its a victory for the former, not the latter.
But it is a win for Iraqis. Shiites and their militias might not like the Sunni ones getting more powerful, but I’m sure they prefer them to al-qaeda.
So, when something positive happens in Iraq, it is a negative for us. When something negative happens in Iraq, it is a negative for us. Convenient, that. At least for teh Narrative.
No fair. Andy has an abacus.
Never mind. I denounce myself for thinking that a fucking twatwaffle like Andy could ever actually have a point, much less engage in an actual discussion. I will flog myself, nay, cane myself, for my penance, and return once the pain subsides.
Hair shirts on sale at Overstock this week, JD.
“As Ric Locke pointed out awhile back, a perfectly apt translation would be “ward bossâ€Â, nothing inherently illiberal about it at all.”
I haven’t read Ric Locke’s description. A link would be appreciated. Ward bosses deliver votes and thats how they get their power. I don’t know if thats how sheikh’s work. Sheikhs are also tribal. Which isn’t very liberal either. What with the tribal identity and the inherited titles. I don’t think people have ward identities and loyalties in the same way that the people who follow these sunni sheikhs have tribal identities and loyalties.
But hey, maybe they’re just like the colonial militia firing on the redcoats. Which would be the awesome. Cuz then everything would work well, and in 100 years they would free their slaves, and in 150 give women the vote.
#
Comment by happyfeet on 11/19 @ 7:22 pm #
No fair. Andy has an abacus.
Shhhh. It’s just some colored beads on a string, but it keeps him occupied for hours.
“So, when something positive happens in Iraq, it is a negative for us. When something negative happens in Iraq, it is a negative for us.”
Close, JD, but I think what he is saying is that Bush is a foreign policy idealist, but if his idealistic plans actually work, then they become realistic, and since Bush isn’t a realist, they can’t be his plans anymore.
“Convenient, that.”
Indeed. Rather tricky, also.
“So, when something positive happens in Iraq, it is a negative for us.”
I think the problem is that you equate a certain ideological position with “us.” Thats not true at all. Its delusional in fact. Anbar is a victory for Iraqis, its a victory for us. Its just that the victory came about by a different form of policy than some ideologies would like. So its not a victory for those ideologies.
“idealist, but if his idealistic plans actually work, then they become realistic, and since Bush isn’t a realist, they can’t be his plans anymore.”
I don’t think you quite get the idea between realism and idealism here.
I see. Policies like pulling the troops out last year, Andy?
I don’t think you get the idea, andy. Not quite. Not quite by a long shot. As it were.
What is it the vindication of, Andy? What’s it the repudiation of, Andy?
Be explicit. Be succinct.
Ideologically, that translates as?
“Ideologically, that translates as?”
Seeing as how idealism tends to oppose strengthening ethnic militias, and realism would tend to favor working with them, then its realism.
So, kinda like John Lennon, then?
Or is it Henry Kissinger?
It sounds more like skins vs. shirts really.
“Seeing as how idealism tends to oppose strengthening ethnic militias…”
You see, I am not seeing that.
I don’t think you quite get the idea between realism and idealism here.
Realism: Bush was reelected President, we’re winning in Iraq, and your six-year-long screechfest accomplished NOTHING. Not. One. Thing. You might as well have stayed in your basement beating off for all the effect you and your fellow travelers had on world polictics.
Sorry!
“So, kinda like John Lennon, then?”
what? You’ve heard of the idea of foreign policy idealism vs. realism right? Maybe its even been blogged here.
“You see, I am not seeing that.”
Ok. Idealists tend to favor spreading democracy and liberal institutions, rule of law, etc…which promoting ethnic militias works against. The idealist would strengthen elected governments, not ethnic militias.
Is this gonna be on the test?
“Idealists tend to favor spreading democracy and liberal institutions, rule of law, etc…”
By meditation? Chants and drum circles? Magic wands and potions?
“…which promoting ethnic militias works against. The idealist would strengthen elected governments, not ethnic militias.”
But what if the ethnic militias want to ally themselves with the elected government? In a war-torn country sorely lacking an infrastructure, can’t these ethnic militias fill an important void while the elected government gathers strength? Do you not understand how the militias could then be absorbed into a more liberal government structure, because something very similar to that happened not only here, but in Europe as it changed from fuedalism to modern liberalism. The tribal ward chiefs became community leaders and mayors and road goes on forever and the party never ends.
“By meditation? Chants and drum circles? Magic wands and potions?”
By giving guns and power and aide (including military intervention) to the elected government, not to the ethnic militias.
“But what if the ethnic militias want to ally themselves with the elected government? ”
And the more power they have, the better they’ll be able to dictate that elected government’s future. They understand this calculus. But it is by no means pre-ordained that they’ll give up power. True the stability given by realism can be used by idealism. But again it is not pre-ordained that it will. The stability of, say, saudi arabia (compared to iraq) could be used to push that country towards more liberal institutions. But it is not necessarily true that it happen.
“By giving guns and power and aide (including military intervention) to the elected government, not to the ethnic militias.”
Lord knows, we’re not giving any guns, aide, etc to the elected government. But we can’t possibly do two things at once, can we?
“Lord knows, we’re not giving any guns, aide, etc to the elected government. But we can’t possibly do two things at once, can we?”
Sure. When one of them works, thats a vindication of that one.
And when they both work, thats a vindication of both.
Symmetry. I loves me some symmetry.
Or, in this case, for. So confusing, I know.
“…it is by no means pre-ordained that they’ll give up power. True the stability given by realism can be used by idealism. But again it is not pre-ordained that it will.”
Not preordained, got it. So what preordained policy do you propose we follow, and by what medium was this prophecy granted you? Burning Bush?
Folks, despite a lot of words from andy, we are left with if something positive happens, it is a negative for us, and if something negative happens, it is a negative for us. I tried to save y’all the effort.
I appreciate the concern, JD, but it really doesn’t take all that much effort. Seriously.
True the stability given by realism can be used by idealism is really genuinely hard to read though.
“Folks, despite a lot of words from andy, we are left with if something positive happens, it is a negative for us, and if something negative happens, it is a negative for us.”
Uh. This is quite a positive for us. Not all of us are ideologues of the idealist type.
BTW, this from the Small Wars Journal:
That’s the synergy of the strategy at work.
As for those illiberal sheikhs, they’re trying to integrate their folks into al-Maliki’s cabinet.
persisted year after year… You hear the soft power fetishists extol what we gain from exhibiting charity in the wake of disaster, of exhibiting humility in our attempts to cajole respect for human rights from dictators, of exhibiting tolerance of the alternative points of view of murderers, but you never hear them extol what we gain from exhibiting persistence. Cause that’s dangerous. It engenders respect.
“As for those illiberal sheikhs, they’re trying to integrate their folks into al-Maliki’s cabinet.”
Sure. And Sadr also has people in the cabinet. Entire ministries, i’ve heard.
Whats illiberal about them isn’t that they don’t try to have a seat in the central government. Its that their own source of power isn’t liberal. Its from inherited ethnic loyalties as well as control of militias.
Oh, dear, who will andy vote for?
I’m not going to even try to explain all of the ongoing machinations among the US and various parties in Iraq to get the militias integrated into the regular armed forces. andy’s head would just explode.
Karl,couldn’t one argue that the “surge” is based on tactics that we found worked in Anbar province? that’s been my thinking, but I haven’t had time to read up on it lately.
maggie,
Not to be Clintonesque, but it depends what is meant by the “surge.” The Anbar Awakening predates the influx of additional US troops that most people think of as the “surge.” But the US support of the Anbar Awakening is COIN doctrine consistent with the new manual from Gen. Petraeus. One of his advisors, Dr. David Kilcullen, will say that the COIN doctrine of supporting the Awakening model in Anbar and now nationwide is a force multiplier like the “surge” — every local who supports it increases troop strength, and in the case of turning groups like the 1920 Brigades, decreases AQI troop strength, effectively doubling the swing.
andy’s fundamental error here is the premise that Bush Doctrine = promoting democracy, which is the same mistake people made when they were claiming that Bush Doctrine = preemptive war. Bush has said that winning the war will require different approaches at different times and different places — the sort of nuance the Left is supposed to be down for, but isn’t if it’s Bush being nuanced.
It’s also worth adding that the Awakening is in no small part due to the fact that those illiberal sheikhs are quite obviously more liberal than AQI. Same with the Shia councils now fighting elements of the Mahdi Army. But for some, it’s never too early to let the perfect become the enemy of the good.
I think that’s what I’ve been trying to get at. Yes, the Anbar Awakening predates the additional forces. However, those additional forces in Baghdad are using tactics/applying COIN lessons learned in Anbar.
“Not all of us are ideologues of the idealist type.”
andy is a surrealist.
“…their own source of power isn’t liberal. Its from inherited ethnic loyalties…”
Like the Kennedys.
““The more we see repression, the more there are no outlets for how people can express themselves and their aspirations, the worse off we’re going to be, and the more anti-American sentiment there’s going to be in the Middle East.â€Â
Its the ‘root causes’ argument we’ve heard in the past. And which we’ve seen Bush not address with middle eastern countries he is not interested in going to war with.
“Like the Kennedys.”
I think their power come from rum-running.
“Its the ‘root causes’ argument we’ve heard in the past. And which we’ve seen Bush not address with middle eastern countries he is not interested in going to war with.”
Whereas this argument has been seen in many different versions of “If we are invading Country X for Reason A, then why aren’t we invading Country Y, where Reason A is also to be found?”
Answers abound:
1) Country Y is less convenient, with less chance of success.
2) Country Y is less significant in the geopolitical sense.
c) Who says we’re not?
Of course, the real reason for this argument is not to get an answer but to gently suggest that Reason A is not the REAL REASON.
Or, it’s just a way of cleaning your lefty rhetorical jet intakes. I can appreciate that; must be a lotta gunk gets up there.
“Its that their own source of power isn’t liberal. Its from inherited ethnic loyalties as well as control of militias.”
B Moe,
This line of andy’s made me think of the Clintons, as the MSM has been their controlled militia for decades.
No credit for learning from mistakes and adjusting the game plan on the fly.
You said you were going to do “A” to achieve goal “C”
That you adjusted and started to do “B” and have achieved “C” and perhaps even “D”, “E” and “F”, invalidates the result. No partial credit awarded either.
Imagine the world if this was the dogma that determined everything.
Ugg, the caveman committee specifically approved your research grant to make fire with rocks and bones. This garbage using sticks and tinder is an affront to the tribe. You are hereby banished.
Uh, Dr. Fleming, since you didn’t wash up those dirty petri dishes before leaving on vacation, we are going to dock you half day of wages. What? I don’t care whats in them, clean those dishes up. Good day Sir.
What do you mean they invented a glue thats doesn’t quite stick? Who the hell needs that? whats the company name? 3M? Sell them short. For size!
TX Turkey,
It’s a war, man. If it doesn’t go exactly as planned in advance, it must be deemed a failure. Ask anyone in the military.
/sarc