Greenwald makes some good points in today’s post:
If you see Palestinians as something less than civilized human beings: as “barbarians” — just as if you see Americans as infidels warring with God or Jews as sub-human rats — then it naturally follows that civilian deaths are irrelevant, perhaps even something to cheer. For people who think that way, arguments about “proportionality” won’t even begin to resonate — such concepts can’t even be understood — because the core premise, that excessive civilian deaths are horrible and should be avoided at all costs, isn’t accepted. Why should a superior, civilized, peaceful society allow the welfare of violent, hateful barbarians to interfere with its objectives? How can the deaths or suffering of thousands of barbarians ever be weighed against the death of even a single civilized person?
So many of these conflicts — one might say almost all of them — end up shaped by the same virtually universal deficiency: excessive tribalistic identification (i.e.: the group with which I was trained to identify is right and good and just and my group’s enemy is bad and wrong and violent), which causes people to view the world only from the perspective of their side, to believe that X is good when they do it and evil when it’s done to them. X can be torture, or the killing of civilians in order to “send a message” (i.e., Terrorism), or invading and occupying other people’s land, or using massive lethal force against defenseless populations, or seeing one’s own side as composed of real humans and the other side as sub-human, evil barbarians. [link mine]
I think that we can agree with this. But there are frightening aspects of tribalism on display on the streets of San Francisco, as well–where tribalism used to mean something rather different–as is documented by Zombie:
Meanwhile, at an earlier San Francisco Gaza protest on December 30, the Palestinian protesters (according to this post at the “At the Back of the Hill†blog) chanted the following slogans in Arabic:
“Itbach al Yahud†(slaughter the Jews)
“Falastin balad’na w’al Yahud qalab’na†(Palestine is our land and the Jews are our dogs)
“ba ruh, ba dam, nafdeek ya Falastin†(with our soul, with our blood, we will cleanse you oh Palestine),
“al mawt al Yahud†(death to the Jews),
“Khaybar Khaybar ya Yahud, jaish-Muhammad saya’ud†(Khaybar Khaybar oh Jews, the army of Muhammad will return).At the Back of the Hill noted,
While the Arabs screamed their desire to exterminate Jews, the English-monolingualists simply stood there happily smiling their approbation.
In short, perhaps Greenwald ought to blog a bit more in the direction of such moral midgets, and a little less towards the supporters of Israel. Or, replace Jews in all of the above slogans with “faggots.” Melanie Phillips via Jennifer Rubin:
The moral inversion in the west is so egregious, so monstrous, that the better Israel is shown to behave the worse the vilification that rains down upon it. What other country in the world would show such restraint in the face of more than 6000 rocket attacks upon its citizens – 6000! – that it took seven years before going to war to put a stop to it? What other country would treat individuals – including proven terrorists – from that enemy territory in its own hospitals? What other country would continue to provide essential foodstuffs and other supplies to those enemies who continued to fire rockets at it? What other country, when finally forced to go to war to stop the attacks, would show such concern to avoid the loss of civilian life that it contacts the population in enemy territory  even households containing identified terrorists – to warn them to flee from the imminent bombardment? And what other country would, for showing such unparalleled moral scrupulousness, be vilified and libelled as Israel is?
In Greenwald’s view, to cut to the point, do the Israelis deserve to have a state of their own, unmolested? Under what conditions would they so deserve, if not? Their opponents speak openly on the streets of the United States of genocide, and the basket weavers sit and smile, and twiddle their thumbs and toes.
Greenwald speaks of proportionality, but once again, that is in the eye of the beholder. Jews are expected to partition their Holy City, but Mecca is off limits to all but Muslims? Religious, tribal cleansing is practiced in more and more of the Arab world–Christians massacred and harassed, forced to convert at the point of a sword–and we are supposed to bemoan the policies of 15th Century Spaniards? Children are indoctrinated into tribal hatred by Muhtada Mouse, nuns murdered over cartoons, filmmakers slain in the streets of the Netherlands, and we are treated to lectures? Gays and rape victims hanged and stoned to death in the name of Allah, and lefties fulminate over Rick Warren?
Keep in mind that these radicalized Muslims consider it their duty according to the Koran to convert or slaughter their opponents at the point of the sword or the tip of a missile. What, again, is proportionality in such circumstances? Yes, there are brave people in Sderot protesting the Gaza incursion: where are the brave souls on the other side protesting the rockets?
To draw just one point from Reliapundit at The Astute Bloggers:
THIS IS WHY THE FACT THAT GAZANS WERE VIOLATING INTERNATIONAL LAW AND THE CEASEFIRE – (A FACT ARGUED BY BOTH PRESIDENT ABBAS AND EGYPTIAN F.M. GHEIT) – IS OF NO CONCERN TO GREENWALD: INTERNATIONAL NORMS CAN ALWAYS BE TRUMPED BY VICTIMS OF “JUDEO-CHRISTIAN/WESTERN HEGEMONY” IN THE MINDS OF LEFTISTS.
And, as you’re certainly aware, there was a great deal of kicking and screaming over this in the MSM.
More:
This is rich. A gruesome propaganda video uploaded to LiveLeak that purported to show the aftermath of an IDF attack on civilians in Gaza turned out to be a fraudâ€â€it actually shows the results of an accidental explosion of a truck full of Hamas rockets at a Palestinian rally.
It’s almost like a blast from Bill Ayers’ past.
Most appropriate Napoleon XIV reference ever.
There is a great longing, in the minds of progressives, to be rid of the burden of liberty. I would add; to be rid of the burden of reason as well.
from another Back of the Hill post about being Jewish in San Francisco
Which makes much of Gleeny’s handwringing about “but think about the Palestinian children!” barely tolerable. He even tosses in the “4 decades of occupation” crap.
Arabs have chosen to recognize that Jews are people and Israel is a sovereign nation. The sole responsibility for their “wretched” condition is their’s alone.
should be: Arabs have chosen not to recognize
Oh, btw, Gleeny seems particularly upset that Reynolds obliquely referred to Hamas as “barbarians”
But maybe the Gleen(s) all failed to note that over Christmas, Hamas ‘legislators’ passed sharia law bringing back crucifiction as a punishment to Gaza.
Certainly a wonderful mark of civilization, eh?
Who cares what Greenwald has to say?
Besides — what room is there for a modern American leftist to whine about tribalism? It’s the defining fucking aspect of their “philosophy”.
DC: PLEASE CHECK OUT MY LATEST ON GREENWALD:
http://astuteblogger.blogspot.com/2009/01/surprise-surprise-scumbucket-glenn.html
& SPLIT TO FIT:
http://astuteblogger.blogspot.com/2009/01/
surprise-surprise-scumbucket-glenn.html
There is an awful sense in which, if a nation is to be forever accused — unjustly — of being disproportionate in its every use of carefully discriminating military force, and that same discriminating force fails, in whatever respect, to achieve the strategic aims set out for it, that nation may turn someday, thinking, well, what might an occasion of utterly indiscriminate force achieve for us? If we’re going to be called indiscriminate let’s go ahead and give our detractors a firm basis for their accusations, and in the bargain, create a genuine (albeit minor in the longer, greater scheme of things, perhaps) sense of catastrophe in our immediate enemies and drive them and most particularly, their shields from before us, thus exposing their fighters to our swords.
Not to say they should think this way, just that they one day might.
reliapundit, c’mon, tell us waht you really think.
With souls, indeed. And this generates no further question in the “liberal” mind?
As dispassionately as one can put this — almost as an aside — the Palestinians are said to be, even by their “liberal” supporters, psychotic. Certainly their acts bear this out.
By the words and actions of its proponents, progressivism is simply a mental disorder. From there, birds of a feather…
Isn’t the more relevant question “Who cares about the Palestinians?” They’ve never failed to choose misery for sixty years. They’ve found it and embrace it. Who am I to interfere?
What was the other line????
On the order of
“The Palis never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.”
“…(with our soul, with our blood, we will cleanse you oh Palestine)”
“No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won the war by making the OTHER poor dumb bastard die for HIS country.” (attributed to General George S. Patton, c.1943).
The above explains why Palestinians–and those who support them–are losers, and always will be losers, until they have their “Road to Damascus Moment.”
Dude, Assad would squash them like bugs if they thought they could get on a road and go to Damascus. Don’t forget the fate of their Muslim Brotherhood pals in Hama, Syria.
Maybe he can tell that to those distributing anti-semitic leaflets in my neighborhood and nearby Bethesda, Md.
Are you able to PDF that, Clarice?
To not take sides is to indirectly support the more brutal side, the aggressor. Orwell called those who were pacifists, who refused to take sides during WWII, as objectively pro-fascist. By not resisting the fascists, or not supporting those who were resisting the fascists, they were assisting the fascist cause.
Same with those who do not take sides (even mentally) in this struggle.
The Palestinians think everything will change when PeBO takes office without altering their own behavior. It’ll be interesting to see if the UN actually respects an Obama administration’s policy when it conflicts with the majority of the Securty Council’s opinion. Let the strongly worded letter writing begin!
Speaking only for myself, I think if someone says something worth quoting (approvingly), it’s worth editing so he doesn’t come off like a screeching wingnut. Apparently Reliapundit’s Caps Lock key doesn’t work, and like most people I tend to skip over passages in all caps — even if (especially if) I’m expected to agree with them.
Sorry, personal failing.
OT: Bill Richardson steps down as Barky’s “Commerce Secretary-Elect”.
Most Ethical Presidency EVAR!1!1111!!!!!
“They’ve never failed to choose misery for sixty years. They’ve found it and embrace it.”
Palestinian ‘support’ of Hamas (or Arafat for that matter) is a convenient justification for collateral damage by the Pro-Israel factions.
In point of fact, the civilian deaths in Gaza seem a little disproportionate @ approx 50 for each Israeli casualty, and are eagerly dismissed as; ‘Palestinians get what they deserve’.
Ghettos are ghettos. If you have no knowledge of the power structure in such communities operates, I suggest you do some research into US gang intimidation of law-abiding members of
the community. If you cooperate with law enforcement as a witness,
you and your family are toast. Yes, some brave souls still defy the criminals, but they risk the lives of friends and loved ones.
The Palestinians face such pressure and have the added benefit of dodging 2000 pound bombs from ‘law enforcement’ who seek not to harm the general population in a direct way, but seem to share your sentiment that palestinians are to blame for Hamas, and thereby don’t shed too many tears for innocents who die.
BTW;
Clarice;
I also am eager to see the anti-semitic pamphlet…….
Comment by Semanticleo on 1/4 @ 12:40 pm #
Do you speak English?
“Comment by Semanticleo on 1/4 @ 12:41 pm #
BTW;
Clarice;
I also am eager to see the anti-semitic pamphlet…….”
So he can get a woody.
Nah, NOB — Semen-boy wants to make sure nobody violated his copyright.
Six thousand rockets fired into Israel since 2005 seems like a convenient enough justification to me. YMMV
Ghettos are ghettos. If you have no knowledge of the power structure in such communities operates, I suggest you do some research into US gang intimidation of law-abiding members of
the community.
We are waiting on thor to bang some ghetto bitch and explain it to us.
…and thereby don’t shed too many tears for innocents who die.
Fuck you.
“Fuck you.”
I understand the reasons for your frustration, but lay off the airplane scotch…..
Yes. Gang intimidation. Apparently, then, the solution is to enable them to liberate themselves by . . . what means?
, “the solution is to enable them to liberate themselves by . . . what means?”
By tenting Gaza and gassing ALL the cockroaches, of course.
BTW;
Collins; Got that anti-jew publication from Clarice yet?
There you go. More constructive observation.
It isn’t frustration, ‘cleo, it is contempt for such a sanctimonious preening ass.
Semanticleo, some years ago the Austin, TX vicinity had major rainstorms and resulting flooding. My ex-sister-in-law loaded my niece and two nephews into the car, headed out, and drove directly into a low-water crossing. Even if the area hadn’t been posted as dangerous, which it was, one would have thought the rushing current would be a “clew”, but it wasn’t, and the car flooded out, trapping them. When they tried to get out, my niece was caught by the flood. They found her, later, trapped in a snag downstream, dead some hours.
The point of that story is that people are free to make bad choices, but that does not mean the result of bad choices isn’t bad.
Sixty years ago, when Israel was founded, the Israelis announced that people of all faiths would be welcomed and their rights protected. Some of the Arabs responded by abandoning their homes and properties, assured by their neighbors that all the Jews would be murdered and their bodies tossed in the sea, whereupon they would be able to return. The murders didn’t happen, leaving the Arabs high and dry — the ancestors of today’s “Palestinians”.
Since then there has been a consistent pattern: The Israelis do their best to preserve an open society and provide mobility and job opportunities to everyone, including Arabs. The Arabs respond by utilizing the openness and mobility as an opportunity to murder Jews. The Jews respond by reducing the openness and mobility, and the world left shrieks that they are Trampling the Rights of the Palestinians. The Israelis try to do the minimum, keeping as much mobility and openness as possible, and the Arabs utilize the openness and mobility as an opportunity to murder Jews. Rinse and repeat.
What you say about the social dynamics of ghettoes is absolutely true, and totally beside the point. Hamas says it intends to kill Jews, and whenever they are given the opportunity they make good on it. Crying that Israel should “respect their rights” is simply demanding that they be given the opportunity. My little niece would be almost old enough to vote, now, if Julie hadn’t made a stupid decision. Many Palestinian children would be alive today who aren’t, if their parents hadn’t made stupid decisions. The fault lies in the stupid decision, not in the evil of floodwaters or Jews.
Regards,
Ric
Do you disbelieve her, cleo?
Funny how Israel’s supporters have to resort to racism to make their case.
Not all Israelis are alike.
Not all Palestinians are alike.
Collective punishment = war crimes.
Funny how progressives use charges of racism as a substitute for presenting a case.
“it is contempt for such a sanctimonious preening ass.”
Or…..’can’t see it….it’s not in my backyard…’
“Do you disbelieve her, cleo?”
Oh, god no!!!
38.
Hahahahahhaha
Would you be happier Semanticleo if 49 IDF members willingly walked into their own death? Would that make things right for you? Or should the IDF just back off, and allow their citizens to dodge these attacks on a regular basis? No, the answer is to crush radical islam. There really is no other choice, because they are never going to stop. They’ll just keep on going till the kill all the jews, then they’ll want to kill all the other non-believers (I’m doing a truncated version of my thoughts here, suffice to say all non-muslims of all strips), then they’ll turn ont he muslims who aren’t with the REAL program, then they’ll start turning on whichever faction is not their own at any particular moment. And they don’t bathe a lot either.
Do you disbelieve Zombie?
So answer Dan’s question, ‘cleo, how do you propose the Palestinians liberate themselves?
Does the stated intention to commit a genocide touch you at all?
“What you say about the social dynamics of ghettoes is absolutely true, and totally beside the point. Hamas says it intends to kill Jews, and whenever they are given the opportunity they make good on it.”
Like two ships passing in the night, we see lights through the fog.
One sees a trawler, the other sees a warship.
Hamas is the enemy, not the Palestinians who are powerless to live outside their control. THAT is the point.
So if the enemy surrounds itself with innocents, you allow the oppression to escalate?
“And they don’t bathe a lot either.”
There you go again……..
“you allow the oppression to escalate?”
How do you respond to a preening ass?
Parsnip if we applied your logic to American history we would still have slaves, be speaking German, and Mexico would own Texas and California.
How?
‘Fuck You’
signed, Israel
Answer me this, ‘cleo- imagine you are the President. The Surgeon General and the CDC give you the news that a horrible disease is threatening America’s children, lets call it Cheneyitis to help you get your mind right. If unchecked, the death toll is expected to reach 75%. There is a vaccination, but it has a mortality rate of 10% which is unavoidable. The vaccine has to be given to all children to be effective, partial vaccinations would still result in mortality rates of well over 50%.
So do you order mandatory vaccinations, knowing that 1 in 10 children will die from it?
“So do you order mandatory vaccinations,”
Fuck you.
False statement made up of independently true clauses. Correct answer: So the f* what?
What can be done about it? Your “solution” is to force the Israelis to a binary choice: (1) Be what monkyboy is pleased to characterize as “war criminals”, or (0) die. Since we (at least theoretically) hang war criminals, this parses to “if Hamas doesn’t kill you, we will.”
Offer a solution, dammit. If you cannot or will not, you reveal yourself as simply willing to kill Jews but too delicate to do so personally.
Regards,
Ric
You know what would be cool? Have a few IDF dudes walk right up to the Temple Mount, right there at the temple and evict those animals right out of there. Kick their asses right on over to the Gaza strip, then open it up to people who truly want to observe history. Or shop. Or actually, you know pray for good. And yeah, I gotta problem with arrogant, pre-mediveal gutter animals that won’t bathe. Just saying.
Semanticleo on 1/4 @ 1:30 pm
“So do you order mandatory vaccinations?â€Â
Fuck you, I got nothing.
FTFY.
Nobody said America’s past is war crime free, Mr. Pink.
I’d say Bernie Madoff has done more to end the IDF’s little tantrum than anything Hamas can do.
The money’s about gone and collective punishment is expensive.
Donald while what you are saying is incredibly politically incorrect I have to agree. Anyone espousing crucifiction in the 21st century is by definition an animal
Parsnip if someone with your thinking had control of a civilization that civilization would be destroyed by another in one generation. Natural selection should have gotten rid of people that think like you centuries ago.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1104296/Bodies-Hamas-leaders-children-paraded-group-promises-painful-revenge-deaths.html
If you are a terrorist leader and you know the Israelis are coming to kill you, what kind of fuckin monster would you have to be to just sit at home with your wife and kids so they could die for the cause too?
“Comment by Semanticleo on 1/4 @ 1:25 pm #
“you allow the oppression to escalate?â€Â
How do you respond to a preening ass?”
Do you speak English?
Well Mr. Pink, they’re denying a remarkable, historical experience to a lot of very interested and good people. All in the name of wiping their ass with their right hands.
“What can be done about it?”
I don’t hear any solutions here, just mindless acceptance of whatever the fuck Israel wants to do, just so they don’t ignite the warcry ‘The JOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOS!’
How about tying our welfare money to stopping the growth of settlements into disputed territories? How about ceasing the use of water and electricity as cudgels which punish everyone?
It isn’t ALL about the Jews, you know….
Just doesn’t seem right to me.
When it comes to terrorists, I approve of this type of family planning. More bang for the buck, so to speak. Environmentalists should be thrilled!
Mr. Pink,
I understand your dogma forces you to say that, but times change and Israel needs to find new tactics if it wants to survive.
Imagine if Ariel Sharon woke from his coma to find out that moron Olmert had reoccupied Gaza.
Olmert is the kind of guy that gets you and yours killed in the end.
“Fuck you, I got nothing.”
It’s not that I have nothing. I have your expert instruction on dealing with ‘preening asses’.
“I approve of this type of family planning.”
There you go, again…………
“Comment by Semanticleo on 1/4 @ 1:48 pm #
It isn’t ALL about the Jews, you know….”
According to you it is.
BTW, do you speak English?
I’ve said it before, but you would expect someone with the word “semantic” in their name to speak English.
stopping the growth of settlements into disputed territories?
The entire country of Israel is a “disputed area”, you fucking moron.
Back in the troll bin you go.
“Comment by Semanticleo on 1/4 @ 1:50 pm #
“I approve of this type of family planning.â€Â
There you go, again…………”
Think of it as evolution in action.
How about tying our welfare money to stopping the growth of settlements into disputed territories?
So the Palestinian rocket attacks are responses to peaceful Israeli settlements? Sounds kind of disproportionate to me.
Throwing money at dictators and third world despots is what the left does best. Why don’t we put them in charge of the UN? Oh wait…..
I don’t hear any solutions here…
Maybe I need to speak up, then:
WHEN SOMEONE HAS DENIED YOUR RIGHT TO EXIST, AND IS ACTIVELY TRYING TO KILL YOU, KILLING HIM FIRST IS THE MOST EFFECTIVE SOLUTION.
“I approve of this type of family planning.â€Â
There you go, again…………
You have been sanctioning it the whole thread, you mean you don’t approve of it?
Hang on B Moe, that sounds like a contradiction in terms, I mean, are there living breathing Israelis in those settlements? If so (that is, if they are still breathing) they can’t by definition be peaceful, according to Ham-ass et al.
KILLING HIM FIRST IS THE MOST EFFECTIVE SOLUTION.
And if you can’t kill him, kill someone who kinda looks like him.
It won’t help, but at least you won’t feel impotent.
I’m sure god will forgive me.
By the way parsnip my “dogma” is not what is driving my opinion in this case. History is. Civilizations are formed in violence, they reach their boundaries by struggling against their neighbors. Civilizations ultimately fail when they stop being more violent than their neighbors and lose the will to fight. You are in the losing will part of histories equation, and you want others to embrace your “dogma”. The dogma of the Mayans and Aztecs. Where are they now anyway? Oh yeah they are dead.
parsnip, didn’t you state “war is theft”? Well, hamass just stole the lives of those innocent Palestinians by starting a war and hiding behind them. Agree?
Watching the Dolphins and Ravens play is theft of the time it takes me to watch them. Can Chad Pennington suck any worse today? Yes he can!!!!!
Why are their still Palestinian ghettos sixty years later? Why are there still Palestinian refugee camps? It was clear after WWII that Germans were not returning to the Volga River basin, that Germans were not returning to East Prussia.
They were resettled elsewhere. Why hasn’t that been done with the Palestinians? Unlike WWII, the Arab nations do not agree with the settlement from before the 1948 war, the settlement after that war, or any settlement that does not include Israel.
Ask the Arab nations why things are as they are, not Israel.
Does the word “Oslo” mean anything to you, Semanticleo? How about the name “Arafat”?
The genuinely maddening thing about this situation is the apparent belief by leftoids and their allies that every day is a new miracle — that the only relevant part is the situation now, and the past can be ignored, especially as regards what’s been tried already.
Short answer: Been there, done that. There are no “settlements” in Gaza — there were, but they have all been evacuated (and all of them have been trashed, despite the fact that the buildings and facilities could have been put to good use by the Arabs.) Bringing up the fact that settlements still exist in the West Bank isn’t an answer, it’s an attempt at deflection; that’s Fatah’s problem, not anything Hamas or the people of Gaza need to deal with.
“…the use of water and electricity as cudgels…” is another deflection, and a remarkable one, since it consists of the admission that Israel provides the electricity for the lights the Gazans use to illuminate their rocket factories. Which they do. The Palestinians produce nothing but murderers — the electricity, the gas, the water, and the food all either come directly from Israel or pass through Israel on the way to them.
So, again the challenge: Offer a solution. To be a “solution” it has to meet two requirements: (1) It can’t have been tried before more than twice, and (2) it has to include live Jews at the end.
Regards,
Ric
Parsnips are euroweenie food.
Mr. Pink,
Israel will collpase when wealthy American and European Jews and the U.S. government stops sending it welfare.
Israel’s latest tatrum (and Bernie Madoff) (and the global recession) have put that welfare at risk.
Gaza, the Grove Parc of Palestine. PeBO should pardon Rezko and send him to Gaza to show hamass how to treat their constituents. It worked for O!, didn’t it?
For another helpmeet in preserving Palestinian ghettos, MikeyNTH, look to the positive evil project UNRWA. Functions just like the welfare programs LBJ cooked up to impoverish Black families, it does.
Israel will collpase when wealthy American and European Jews and the U.S. government stops sending it welfare.
Is that your final solution, tuberhead?
One sees a trawler, the other sees a warship
Da, ‘tic.
Please to be moving along, peoples.
Am merely harmless Russian trawler.
What’s the matter Mitty, can’t claim you’re a Miami Dolfin wide receiver?
Cleo
What do you think the chant of the anti-Semites in San Francisco last week that begins From River to Sea … means?
Did j’yall happen to catch David Sanger painting a pre-emptive pictures of “Bay of Pigs” scenarios for PeBHO on Meet the Press this a.m.? Pretty f’ing funny stuff there I think. “He’ll have to sign off on these covert operations before he even knows what they are”, said Sanger. Hilarious!
It cannot solve, Ric. It can only lie.
Death to the welfare recipients!!!!
He’ll have to sign off on these covert operations before he even knows what they are
oh my… is that a pre-emptive “I am not responsible” signal from The Most Ethical President Ever(tm)? A “we..we..uh, I had NO CONTACT with Blago”-esque blurt that all future history must then revolve around?
Israel could allow the Palestinians to have a decent economy, B Moe.
But that would mean the IDF couldn’t blow up factories, bridges, power plant, etc.
It’s hard work hitting the folks actually shooting at you.
Or possibly Darleen, a signal to current allies that they can expect to be back-stabbed and abandoned (a la JFK’s refusal of air support) in the very near future if things get a bit sticky.
Comment by parsnip on 1/4 @ 2:32 pm #
Israel could allow the Palestinians to have a decent economy, B Moe.
But that would mean the IDF couldn’t blow up factories, bridges, power plant, etc.
It’s hard work hitting the folks actually shooting at you.
Especially if hamass steals the factories, bridges, power plants, etc. by starting a war and hiding weapons in or near them. “War is theft”, you did say that didn’t you?
Israel will collpase (sic) when wealthy American and European Jews and the U.S. government stops sending it welfare.
Let’s with draw all Middle East “welfare” (US billions to “Palestinians” and Egypt) and see which entity “collapses” first.
Hint: Israel is a modern, industrial state
parsnips anti-Semitic fantasies just keep getting clearer.
The Present-dent is being awfully quiet about this, isn’t he?
“I think that we can agree with this.”
Really? I think you’re going soft on me, Dan! Greenwald’s a freak who deserves very little attention. Let him go spend a couple of nights in Sderot and or let Hamas henchmen mistake him as a “collaborator” with Fatah. Then we’ll see how many posts on “proportionality” he’d write, if he made it out alive.
SPB, what could he possibly say at this point that would be helpful? It’s smarter to let this play out, and not be boxed-in if events change prior to him taking office.
A Martin Kramer piece entitled “Israel’s Gaza Strategy” speculating on same.
He too believes that the ultimate Israeli aim is to get the PA back in power (and Ham-ass out of it) in Gaza, in order to have a partner in both the West Bank and Gaza with which to negotiate a two state solution to their problems.
Israel could allow the Palestinians to have a decent economy
You don’t pay attention, do you, Jew-hater? Israel, when it handed over Gaza, handed over some of the most advanced agricultural infrastructure – hothouses, etc. The “Palestinian” response was to destroy them.
Israel has Arab citizens but “Palestinians” demand that Gaza and the West Bank be Judenrein… no living with the dog-Jew for those civilized Arabs.
Mossberg500, you mean he doesn’t really have a secret plan that will bring lasting peace to the Whole Wide World?
Israel provides Gaza with electrical power (which the Gazans don’t pay for; the “welfare payments” to Israel are what covers it.
Israel provides Gaza with clean water and sewage treatment.
Gaza used to be a tourist destination — it has wonderful beaches and sea views. Some of the “settlements” included tourist resorts and port facilities in the city of Gaza and elsewhere. When the Israelis left, they left all that behind, along with people who had been employed there who knew how to operate them. They also left food-producing facilities (an extensive greenhouse setup, with customers as far away as Scandinavia) and the people who knew how to operate those, and they continued to supply power, sewage treatment, and raw materials to all of it, and offered financing help to expand — not a total economic base, but a solid basis for developing one. The Gazans trashed all the facilities except the solid-concrete piers of the ports and killed or maimed all the knowledgeable employees (collaborators, don’tcha know).
The only surviving industrial infrastructure in Gaza is one (1) electrical power plant, which runs on natural gas provided via pipeline from Israel. It’s still running.
Next suggestion?
Regards,
Ric
Gaza, handed over some of the most advanced agricultural infrastructure – hothouses, etc.
Israeli side of the border (note that he’s carrying away a piece of a rocket that the Palestinians have fired at them).
Palestinian side of the border.
A Barry Rubin piece published at Middle East Strategy at Harvard entitled “On the ground in Gaza”.
About Fatah and the PA Rubin says, “Fatah and the Palestinian Authority will not react strongly to try to take Gaza back for itself.”
In his summation Rubin says:
Darleen,
Imagine if the U.S. routinely dispatched its Air Force to destroy any significant economic structures in Canada and Mexico. Not only would it impoverish those countries, but as our biggest trade partners, it would impoverish us, too.
Something for you crazy right wing extremists to consider when the welfare checks dry up.
Imagine if the U.S. routinely dispatched its Air Force to destroy any significant economic structures in Canada and Mexico
Wake me up when Canada starts firing thousands of rockets into Seattle from bases in Vancouver, moron.
You’re talking to Semen-boy, who has argued in favor of the return of slavery. He wouldn’t kill the Jews — he’d put them in work camps.
Cnada and Mexico are civilized countries, whom we have solid (Really) relations with. Canada and Mexico are not death cult assemblages of savages. Man are you a stupid stupid. Or, completely dishonest. Which one is it?
root veggie
Do you think the US would endure months on end of rockets fired from Tijuana into San Diego and NEVER respond?
please, keep making your Jew-hate clearer.
I disagree, Ric. The left cannot stop talking about history — but only the history that makes the civilized world look bad. They won’t mention the 6,000 rockets from Hamas except to excuse it as being the fault of the Israelis. They won’t mention the eviction of Jews from Arab lands, but will endlessly blame the squalor the Palestinians live in on the Israelis.
Comment by Spies, Brigands, and Pirates on 1/4 @ 2:51 pm #
Mossberg500, you mean he doesn’t really have a secret plan that will bring lasting peace to the Whole Wide World?
Secret plans can’t be criticized. BTW, since he’s getting briefed on what decisions he’ll have to make as President, I think he’ll keep his mouth shut as long as possible(regarding foreign affairs), so he doesn’t have to backtrack the minute he becomes POTUS. Wait until he has to deal with the UN Security Council—it make Congress look competent.
Well, actually Darleen, we are tolerating an invasion, not to mention an extensive crime problem generated by the local government in Tijuana.
“Comment by parsnip on 1/4 @ 2:12 pm #
Mr. Pink,
Israel will collpase when wealthy American and European Jews and the U.S. government stops sending it welfare.”
Israel’s GNP is higher than the combined GNP of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and the Palestinian Territories.
Once again, alpo proves what an insane fool it is.
make=makes
Damn!
Do you think the US would endure months on end of rockets fired from Tijuana into San Diego and NEVER respond?
Well, Obama’s administration wouldn’t respond by randomly bombing Nicaragua.
Not sure about the current admin.
Do you have any idea how shrill you’re sounding, Darleen?
Do you have something to wipe the flecks of spittle from your computer screen?
“Comment by parsnip on 1/4 @ 2:32 pm #
Israel could allow the Palestinians to have a decent economy, B Moe.”
Or, you know, the Arabs could create a decent economy.
[…] Ric Locke over at Protein Wisdom has the Israeli/Palestinean conflict in a […]
I mean Isreal exists in the same fucking desert that the Arabs live in, do they not?
Israel’s GNP is higher than the combined GNP of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and the Palestinian Territories.
What’s wrong with this picture, alpo?
Snippy, just admit it: You hate Jews, you hate Israelis, you especially hate Israel, you hate western civilization, you hate religion of any kind (except, right now, Islam, but that will change if America ever becomes an Islamic nation), you hate women, you hate children, and you hate all of these because they may provide good and happiness somewhere and you, in your snivelling little depressive narcissitic whiny depths of your pathetic and underdeveloped soul, don’t understand the Good and can’t achieve the Beautiful; therefore you will never know happiness.
Somehow, your psychic deprivation causes you to think you are Right and everyone else is not only wrong, but also really stupid. Because you’d kill yourself if you ever looked into the mirror and realized how tragically insulated from sense and decency you truly are.
OT: It amuses me Gleen Grenwald expresses any opinion about Palestinians whatsoever, since they’d knock a wall down on him if he ever visited that “nation” of thieves and killers.
“Comment by parsnip on 1/4 @ 2:59 pm #
Darleen,
Imagine if the U.S. routinely dispatched its Air Force to destroy any significant economic structures in Canada and Mexico.”
If Canada or Mexico were regularly firing rockets into U.S. territory to randomly kill U.S. citizens, you had fucking well better believe that that is what would happen, and I for one, would be cheering tham US Air Force on.
” Man are you a stupid stupid. Or, completely dishonest. Which one is it?”
Yes.
Yes it is.
Gee, ushie, I thought Israel was a democracy.
I didn’t realize questioning its public policies made me an anti-semite.
Is that what you right wing extremists have been reduced to, calling anyone who disagrees with you anti-semites?
Sounds an awful lot like the the recently departed Republican party.
Trippy Livni = your Sarah Palin?
“Comment by parsnip on 1/4 @ 3:13 pm #
Do you think the US would endure months on end of rockets fired from Tijuana into San Diego and NEVER respond?
Well, Obama’s administration wouldn’t respond by randomly bombing Nicaragua.”
W
T
F?
That’s exactly what he’s called for.
I do wonder how he’d react if one of his neighbors were to start taking random pot-shots at his house. Probably call the cops, which is essentially calling on the state to use force to respond to the threat.
It would be amusing to see his response when the cops tell him to stop inciting his neighbor.
“Comment by parsnip on 1/4 @ 3:21 pm #
Gee, ushie, I thought Israel was a democracy.”
It is.
What does that question have to do with anything in the entire space-time continuum?
“I didn’t realize questioning its public policies made me an anti-semite.”
No, your anti-semitism makes you an anti-semite.
“Is that what you right wing extremists have been reduced to, calling anyone who disagrees with you anti-semites?”
No, this right wing extremist calls anti-semites anti-semites.
“Sounds an awful lot like the the recently departed Republican party.”
48% of the electorate is “departed”? Wow, gimme some of those drugs, baby.
NOB, that’s part of alphie’s “what did Iraq do to us” line of bullshit. Of course, no one should tell him (for close to the fortieth time) that the first place invaded after Pearl Harbor was French North Africa.
In any case, this is close to the fortieth time alpo’s made the same damned worthless arguments. Why you all insist on responding to it again is a mystery to me.
“Why you all insist on responding to it again is a mystery to me.”
Because cock-slapping the fucktards is fun.
Mhehe….
Gee, ushie, I thought Israel was a democracy.
I didn’t realize questioning its public policies made me an anti-semite.
Shorter snippy: “Some of my best friends are [the ‘good’ kind of] Jew”
snippy wishes to ignore Israel is the world’s Jew
Once their Dream Congress and The One get the new legislation passed outlawing other political parties(*), well…
And don’t tell me that’s not what they want. We’ve had two months of them crowing that the election means the “end” of Republicans, which is a seriously unhealthy train of thought for people in a free country.
(*) — they will probably exempt “historically oppressed” political parties, like the Greens and CPUSA and any national socialist parties that haven’t been absorbed into the Democrats.
Wow, No Brain, four unanswered posts in a row?
Are you a shutin?
Do the nice people from the soup kitchen stop by once in a while?
Um, the Democrats managed to win WWII, Rob.
Eventually the chafing starts.
All things get boring in time — having the same argument with the same lying POS over and over and over got boring about a year ago.
Clarice;
Where is that pamphlet being passed around the Beltway community?
Enquiring minds want to know…………..
My bi-monthly reminder that you can’t actually converse with a pathological liar. You can only allow your time to be wasted.
And it’s really too bad, because there’s a lot of potential interesting stuff from the non-troll commenters here.
But, as LGF has become so dominated by fanbois that you can’t see past the forest of comments, this place has become so troll-centric that it’s not worth sifting through it most days.
They don’t sharpen your debate skills, because you’re not debating them, you’re just pointing out when they lie – it has no effect on them, because they don’t care what the truth is, only if they can get a stiffy because someone is finally paying attention to them.
Comment by donald on 1/4 @ 3:09 pm #
Well, actually Darleen, we are tolerating an invasion, not to mention an extensive crime problem generated by the local government in Tijuana.
There’s a local government in TJ? Who knew?
Yes, I am well aware of what ‘open borders’ has brought to the US (I’m a native Angeleno and my in-laws live in San Diego) and that is WITHOUT the illegals crossing in order to overthrow the American government and drive the Anglo’s into the sea.
I hope they weren’t growing parsnips in those Gaza greenhouses.
“WHEN SOMEONE HAS DENIED YOUR RIGHT TO EXIST, AND IS ACTIVELY TRYING TO KILL YOU, KILLING HIM FIRST IS THE MOST EFFECTIVE SOLUTION.”
The Bush Doctrine (discredited version) revisted; ‘kill ’em all. Let god sort ’em out’ It’s so simple. Just find the guy, and kill him. God help deliver us from the Simple Simons of the world.
Comment by Merovign on 1/4 @ 3:38 pm
Mostly I agreed … though in this instance the trolls are running through all the anti-Semitic cliched responses one sees peppered throughout the Lamestream Media opinion pages.
It is instructive that they cannot and will not defend those responses when called on them… trolls just move on to another point as if the first one was never uttered.
Y’know, a relevant metaphor is the junkyard dog.
Cruel people sometimes torture a dog to teach it to be fierce and attack anything that moves. They do it because it means they can leave it guarding something, and it will attack anyone who tries to get in.
That’s animal cruelty. Nowadays we have animal-welfare policemen, who will find such people and charge them with a crime. That’s the right thing to do, and when it’s established that that is, in fact, what’s gone on the perpetrators are and should be punished.
The dog usually has to be “euthanized” — that is, killed. Doesn’t that seem cruel to you? It isn’t the dog’s fault it’s been trained that way. But it usually isn’t possible to retrain them to be kind to kids and other animals. Even if it seems that it’s been done, too many of them have reverted to their cruel original training and savaged people for anyone to trust them, so they have to go.
“Hamas” (that’s an emblematic generality; there were lots of others participating) has, by now, trained the Gazans to kill Jews, pretty much. Most any picture you get, any interview you hear, of a Gazan Palestinian, they either shout defiant slogans about killing Jews or offer calm, grim determination to kill Jews no matter the cost. Now, it’s true that what needs to be done is get rid of the cruel trainers, punish or execute them. What to do with the “innocent Gazans” afterward? They’re still going to respond to their lifelong training, aren’t they? Any evidence otherwise?
Comment by Semanticleo on 1/4 @ X.XX pm #
So the Palestinians are dogs? Matches the Republican attitude all right.
–There you go, S. Saved you the trouble.
Regards,
Ric
Are you a jew, Darleen?
“What to do with the “innocent Gazans†afterward?”
Destroy them like a rabid dog.
Morevin (or, wtf ever)
Smoking out the ethnic cleansers seems a worthy goal of any troll or commenter. Is there any doubt that is in sync with Israel and her surrogates, the Likudists at PW?
You people are shitbags to the 10th power
Very good, Semanticleo. You have established that you’re almost as good at slinging insults as thor, and more concise, which is a good thing.
Now: Offer a solution. Even, offer an approach that might yield a solution, with the two constraints mentioned elsethread: (1) The Jews are alive afterward, (2) It hasn’t been tried more than twice.
Regards,
Ric
Darleen,
Don’t get mad at me because your nutty views put you out of step with 80% of Jewish Americans.
: “Offer a solution”
You mean, like the Final Solution you are resurrecting?
Bless you, my child.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Solution
Just how has the Bush Doctrine (And please give us your definition please) been discredited? I ask for youur’s because it is open to interpretation. Do you mean the one where we begin the decades long arduous process of getting rid of the filthy slime of evil, and helping the civilized people of the world gain the oopportunity for freedom and happiness? Cause that’s how I interpret it. And in that one instance of his presidency, for this one issue, George Bush will godown in history as one of the greatest icons in world peace. As opposed to oh, let’s pick one president…Jimmy Carter. And let’s pick another world leader…oh, How’s about Fidel Castro. Seeing as how they’re still living and all.
Says the “man” who advocates the return of slavery.
FWIW, I consider it an honor to be called a “shitbag” by someone who wants to be a slaver.
Sorry for the spelling issues, I’ve got that cut off comment box again.
What our trolls won’t recognize (or admit) is that Israel isn’t targeting random Palestinians, it’s targeting Hamas. This isn’t some collective punishment for all Palestinians. We’d be justified in bombing Mexican factories if the factory buildings were used to launch rockets at the US, were used to produce the rockets that were launched at the US from the other factories, or held the headquarters of the guys launching rockets at the US. Full stop.
It’s been that way throughout history, and it’s never been regarded as war crimes. The Israelis are acting no different than American B-17 pilots bombing German factories in World War II (or if there is some difference, the Trolls can’t state what it is, unless the difference is the Israelis are, well, Israeli and therefore evil). Our trolls are too stupid to make a coherent argument otherwise.
80% of Jewish Americans want Israel to be annihilated? 80% of Jewish Americans support Hamas’ covenant calling for the annihilation of Jews and the subjugation of all non-moslems in any land that was ever historically in moslem lands (waqf) including Spain?
I’m sure you can source that assertion, Jew-hater.
Comment by Semanticleo on 1/4 @ 3:44 pm #
Are you a jew, Darleen?
What’s it to you, cleo? (I also note your non-capitalization of “Jew”)
Parsnips probably do well if nourished with alot of manure.
Don’t get mad at me because your nutty views put you out of step with 80% of Jewish Americans.
I haven’t been able to locate a poll regarding Jewish-Americans against the recent action in Gaza. Do you have a link?
Haha, darleen
You are insane.
I notice your “principles” have a remakably small impact on the way you live your life.
You’re a “capitalist” who works for the government, a “union-hater” who is happy to wallow in union-supplied benefits, a moralist who dumped her first husband on a whim, a “Zionist” who lives in California, etc.
No wonder you try to make up for your laziness with hate-filled posts.
Does it help?
Mossberg500
if snippy ever allowed any Jew near him, it would only be the good kind described in #3 above.
“What’s it to you, cleo? (I also note your non-capitalization of “Jewâ€Â)”
I often use lower case because I miss the ‘shift’ key. My typos are irrelevant to the content.
What is it to me? Just curious. You seem to have a persecution complex about the subject, somewhat like Goldbrick. If you choose not to say, that’s fine.
Cleo
You forgot your next line — “Zionism is racism”
hasn’t parsnip been prepping you properly?
Unh huh, Semanticleo. You’re deflecting again.
Now tell me:
What is Hamas’s proposed solution? (Since you endorse it, and all.)
Where and when did it originate? (hint: Google “mufti Jerusalem Nazi”)
Have they ever proposed, or agreed to, anything else?
Has anybody from Gaza ever proposed, or agreed to, anything else? If so, where are they now?
Regards,
Ric
That’s just not true, Civilis, not even a little true. Our guys were dropping cheap dumb bombs by the thousands and missing about as often as they hit what they were ostensibly aiming at. Israeli pilots are dropping very expensive and explosively tailored smart bombs that hit their very narrowly defined targets at a well over 90% rate. There’s almost no comparison between the two as far as care for the enemy population goes.
‘You’re a “capitalist†who works for the government, a “union-hater†who is happy to wallow in union-supplied benefits,”
So, she works at the Post Office? That says a lot……….
I’ll just repeat this comment. The ONLY violations of the Geneva conventions are being committed by Hamas.
persecution complex about the subject
Oh my, to hold that Jews should be allowed to live is the sign of a “persecution complex.”
THAT is why cleo asks of I’m a Jew. I must be a Jew to defend their right to live.
Um, the Democrats managed to win WWII, Rob.
The combined Allied Forces won WWII. I do enjoy little slips like this that let everyone know what your allegiances are and what you are really all about, you treacherous little fuck.
Comment by parsnip on 1/4 @ 4:08 pm #
and, voila, you retreat to “chickenhawk”-style mendacities again.
snippy, sad little jew-hater –
“Now tell me:”
Deflecting huh? You mean like the guy who implies ALL the Gazans
can’t help but display murderous behavior, and should therefore
be euthanized like ill or unwanted pets, then tries a comeback feigning a conscientious search for answers.
Go fuck yourself, TicToc. You have nothing worthwhile to add
Oh, good.
monkyboy and Semanticleo have resorted to spittle and ad hominem, and it isn’t even dark yet. Kewl.
Regards,
Ric
Cleo
I work in the judiciary branch of government — one of those Constitution and legitimate provinces of government. It is no more at odds with being a ‘capitalist’ than being a vegetarian is at odds with supporting other’s choice to eat a steak.
, “sad little jew-hater -”
We hate the ‘sin’, not the Jew.
“Um, the Democrats managed to win WWII, Rob.”
Yeah, and the Democrats let Pearl Harbor happen.”
(wait for it, wait for it)
“Constitutional“
“I work in the judiciary branch of government”
So you’re a clerk; like Einstein, only dumber?
That’s just not true, Civilis, not even a little true. Our guys were dropping cheap dumb bombs by the thousands and missing about as often as they hit what they were ostensibly aiming at. Israeli pilots are dropping very expensive and explosively tailored smart bombs that hit their very narrowly defined targets at a well over 90% rate. There’s almost no comparison between the two as far as care for the enemy population goes.
Sdferr, that was exactly my point regarding the means of waging war. Civilian casualties have always occurred and been accepted as a normal part of war when military targets, such as weapon manufacturing facilities, are located in close proximity to civilian areas. With B-17s, especially at night, close proximity can mean “within a few miles of”. Morally, there’s no appreciable difference between the US bomber crew and the Israeli strike pilot.
I was astonished at pictures in the Washington Post of a mosque that had been hit in Gaza of the remarkable little collateral damage. Comparing it to recent readings on the fight for Cassino (and the accompanying wartime photos), it was astonishing what modern weapons can do.
The Bush Doctrine (discredited version) revisted…
That is a lot older than Bush, it goes back to the beginnings of civilization and war, and I have yet to see it discredited.
We hate the ’sin’, not the Jew.
Ah, so you DO take lessons from parsnip!
No one has answered the question I posed in 52 yet- do you give the vaccination?
Take that line of reasoning just one little step further ,cleo, and then you’ll be in the ballpark.
“No one has answered the question I posed in 52 yet- do you give the vaccination?”
See #170
That isn’t an answer, do you order the vaccinations or not?
“That isn’t an answer”
From now on, that’s my stock answer to you, Squash.
Here. Let me rephrase it; ‘Eat shit and LIVE”
Unh huh. Convince yourself, Semanticleo. Your mind-reading equipment is on the blink (of course it has been for some time).
But fine. Take it as your diseased mind did. Convince me otherwise, Semanticleo. Tell me what to do to avoid euthanizing the Gazans. Whether you believe it or not it’s what I would prefer — and even if you don’t believe it, you can be sure that the politics of the situation would oblige me to go along if that solution were available.
I repeat: Offer a solution, not pointless insults. Offer an avenue to a solution. Offer a philosophy that might lead to an avenue that might lead to a solution. Offer something besides “Oh the poor Palestinians stop the Jews hurting them” because bar a few dismissable idiots, whom you may consider yourself free to flame, nobody wants to hurt Palestinians — and if you start out with the assumption that the point is hurting Gazans, you’re wrong from the start and have nothing to offer.
Something. Anything. But remember: (1) Live Jews, (2) Not more than two previous tries.
Regards,
Ric
“Your mind-reading equipment is on the blink (of course it has been for some time).”
Your words need no interpretation. Mayhaps you can salvage your moderate persona by convincing Goldbrick to scrub yer comment.
Until then, it’s as clear as the warts on your nose.
I guess right there is where we may have to disagree Civilis, though let me quickly add the proviso that I’m well aware the two are operating under entirely different regimes of war, the one total, the other not. Then the further fraught complications of legitimate structures of command and decisional hierarchy and so on. But I can’t think that there is no appreciable moral difference between a firebombing mission over a German or Japanese city and a mission to drop a precision guided 250lb bomb on a single residence doubling as a rocket stockpile.
poor Cleo, parsnip has advised her how to answer #52 so resorts to usual deflection … scatological deflection, but “save me from making a decision!” deflection it remains.
btw, poor Cleo, I’m a Supervisor (aka “management” aka The Man).
The Palestinians are barbarians.
That was the intent on the part of the last four generations of Arab governments and the process was carried out under the auspices of the world’s Best and Brightest via successive Western governments and with the tender attention of the UN and its various scam agents along the entire way.
The Palestinians are PEOPLE. If the Israelis had been given a country by world mandate back in 1948 fer real, then there would have been a war fought that would have been won or lost. Instead, we end up building a lab where we can watch the rats live the Bright Future per the edicts of moral equivalence, brinksmanship, and the tenets of Stability.
I choose to support Israel because their religion doesn’t define my existence as a subhuman capital offense, and they tend toward representative rule. The Palestinians I pity first and despise second. In a Western world where people of different anything, be it skin, hair color, sexual identity, political paint job, ethnicity, etch – shove and rumble to claim superior “victim” status, the Palestinians actually live such a wretched existence that any intelligent dog would have refused to play along, and left generations ago.
Palestinians are a lesson: what the nanny state offers.
There’s nothing to negotiate when your enemy defines your annihilation as the only acceptable condition for peace. So go out and win, Israel.
I’m a Supervisor *clerk*. Why don’t you want to say it?
What job do you have, Semen?
Oh, right.
My title is Supervisor, poor Cleo. I’m in the Supervisor/Management Unit of the county I work for.
Excuse me if I don’t want to give out further details since I do post under my own legal name, while you, poor Cleo, remain anonymous.
It’s interesting to note that the rabid, mittyesque trolls never use their real names (or IPs in many instances).
Totally incapable of making decisions or plans. I can see why you would get so excited about someone else touting hope and change, it is never going to come from within, huh ‘cleo?
As an aside
As much as I enjoy my day job, it isn’t the most important job I’ve ever held.
That would be the 16 years I did as a SAHM.
What does it matter what job anyone here has? It’s irrelevant, except perhaps to note who actually works for a living and who does not.
I only see the non-hammered stuff, but I get the gist of what’s going on. We have a battle of reason vs emotion, just like always, and the people speaking from emotion are losing the fight. Typical.
For some reason that might make sense in the Bizarro world, Snippy says to Darleen: “a “Zionist†who lives in California, etc.”
I was going to attempt some sort of answer to that Isn’t Israel a Democracy? dimtwittery (why, ys. Yes, it is. Do you have a vote in Israel’s elections, snippet?), but this–THIS–is the core of Sniplet’s and Seman’s “thing”:
You have to be a Jew to support Israel, AND you have to be a “Zionist,” as well, AND if you prefer Israel–a democracy–to the ragtag murderers that make up Hamas, etc., then you actually are only allowed to support Israel if the above conditions apply AND you go and live in Israel.
Yo, Snippy the Pinhead–the US is also a democracy. Thus, I can support Israel AND Luxembourg AND Namibia AND any other damn country/aggregate I want. And I don’t have to be a Jew, or live in a country the size of a stamp, or come from Africa, to do so.
Christ, you’re so damn blockheaded you make my teeth ache.
Gleen’s full of shit. Three generations of religious maniac killers is enough.
And I think we probably differ on our definitions of “excessive”.
Raising the kids is the most important job anyone can have, BTW. I didn’t mean to sound like I didn’t acknowledge that.
And that is a victory (it does a little jig!) for your tormentor, ushie.
Insofar as a state’s population resists, no one knows how to make war on a state without warring on its peoples.
Leftists are trashing the Geneva Conventions and the Laws of Land Warfare, by selectively applying those codes to disadvantage the US. Do they think Europe and Asian states have failed to notice this fact?
Nation-states will not long abide treaties that threaten vital national interests. Then the neo-marxist strategy of anti-American, international legal maneuvers will deterministically lead to the end of the conventions altogether. This illustrates, once again, that liberals and leftists have absolutely no practical reasoning ability.
Sdferr,
I guess I’m just looking at it as a binary moral / immoral decision, or at least a trinary clearly moral / iffy / clearly immoral, rather than quantifying it down further. I specified targeting a factory, and I deleted a line about having potentially a different position regarding things like Dresden because it detracted from the overall point I was trying to make. There are a lot of variables involved, and I could see why someone a bit less inclined to rule-code everything could say that there is indeed a moral distinction between the two. Like you, I suspect the balance of moral factors favor the Israeli pilot if the distinction has to be made. I know that going back and flying a flight of B-17s over Gaza today would probably count as immoral if you have precision guided munitions. I just find historical ignorance (on the part of the trolls) to be an easy target.
I’m with you there Civilis (and I should apologize for pulling your quote away from the factory and toward the burning houses you didn’t intend). Mea culpa.
“I just find historical ignorance (on the part of the trolls) to be an easy target.”
Ah, but if you teach kids history and critical thinking skills and self reliance… you end up with out trolls. Mostly.
It’s not a bug. It’s a feature. We’ve become a nation plagued with eternal four year olds. And it wasn’t on accident; not nearly.
Just for grins, and I mean just for grins, I’d like to see the Israelis send one of their now common warning messages to the Ham-assies at the Hospital, whether leaflets or phone-calls or both, no matter, saying in effect, “We’re going to bomb this joint in 30 min so you better get the hell out of there if you want to live.” Then sit back and bomb nothing about the Hospital at all but get as much of the “evacuation of the wounded” on video tape as possible (circling UAV’s could do this, I assume). Watching the rats scurry out would be quite entertaining I should think.
It’s not like Olmert and his band of cowardly right wing extremists are in the front lines either, Sdferr.
JeffY
Insofar as a state’s population resists, no one knows how to make war on a state without warring on its peoples.
and while Gleen(s) and company try and say all those poor innocent Gazans (and there are, I am sure, many of them) must stay our hand and let them not only continue to try to destroy Israel but continue to oppress them, too.
At this point I shall refer to Oriana Fallaci
I wonder whether Olmert had the presence of mind to inquire of Medvedev after the health and well-being of Georgians evicted (or killed) by Russian troops from their ancestral homes in South Ossetia and Abkhazia?
Sdferr
Islamist terrorists using a Humanitarian Facility as cover?!!? Say it ain’t so!
“Zionist” update:
?
Meet the new boss same as the old boss:
?
Israel offers French Jews tens of thousands of dollars if they’ll just relocate to Israel, dre.
Why do you suppose so many of them have resisted the offer?
Sorry for going OT again, but this is great. Via Jake Tapper:
Obama: Not the Bill Richardson I knew.
And another one’s gone,
And another one’s gone,
Another one bites the bus…
Ah, but if you teach kids history and critical thinking skills and self reliance… you end up with out trolls. Mostly.
Shouldn’t that read “history”, “critical thinking” and “self reliance”? No one these days is taught anything approaching these things. History (sorry, “history”) classes are taught with a predetermined narrative, and no one teaches anything approaching “critical thinking” at the Elementary through High School levels. I went to a good engineering college, so my Internation Relations classes were actually a reasoned debate with both sides presenting good arguments. (Note: I’m generalizing; there are exceptions.)
From dre’s link:
Several thousand demonstrators waved Israeli flags and sang Hebrew hymns in Paris Sunday to show support for Israel in its military offensive in Gaza, a day after a huge pro-Palestinian rally.
…
Pro-Palestinian protesters Saturday burned Israeli flags, torched several cars and smashed windows of shops along the chic Hausmann Boulevard near the Paris Opera house.
Pretty much says it all.
And Semanticleo, having read what I wrote, adds something that existed only behind her own eyeballs (and which I would not write, even if it occurred to me, which it did not), curses me for it, and retires from the field. Semantics.
—
It’s a hard problem. I must confess that I have very little sympathy for some of the bloodthirstier Israeli sympathizers — I take no joy whatever in casualties, even enemy casualties, except to the extent that they reduce the threat. The purpose of war is to win. It is necessary to kill to win, but killing isn’t the point. (This, again, is semantics, or possibly philosophy.)
The problem is hard, very possibly intractable, because while it may be fun to attempt to believe in seven impossible things before breakfast, it’s no fun at all to try to solve a problem whose definition is that two mutually contradictory things must be accomplished. Hamas will not, never has, and never will accept a “solution” that includes live Jews; Israel would be happy, even delighted, to accept a solution that includes live Palestinians, but insists on live Jews as a condition. It’s not a case of black is white and vice versa; it’s a case of requiring black and white simultaneously, and gray unacceptable to either side.
In the end, it may be necessary to choose a side and go with it, and if that happens I have no qualms. I’m with the Israelis. And if the “junkyard dog” solution is the only one available, you might imagine just how much joy the vet has in the process.
Regards,
Ric
To quote Khaled Abu Toameh:
What are you calling a “win” for the current IDF tantrum, Ric?
The rockets are still launching from Gaza and Israel is about outta money.
By the way, folks, if you do the Google search I recommended to Semanticleo, this comes up at the top. A few excerpts:
Incidentally, if you want to blame somebody for the whole bloody (literally) mess, Sir Herbert Samuel deserves a heaping pile of scorn. It isn’t at all clear that it made the present inevitable, but this appointment took a deteriorating situation and turned it into a disaster.
And, of course, the payoff:
Such nice people.
Regards,
Ric
Ah, Sdferr, I excoriate the Snippet because it amuses me, and also because the creature is the type to believe that, if no one calls the creature upon its stumpdumbness, it won its little…well, not “argument,” that suggests there’s coherent thought somewhere…
I’m sure “fapfapfap” enters into its “argument” construction…
Just collecting data on a political movement I thought died a long time ago, ushie.
#82 There are no “settlements†in Gaza  there were, but they have all been evacuated (and all of them have been trashed, despite the fact that the buildings and facilities could have been put to good use by the Arabs.)
True, but not in the way that you think.
True, but not in the way that you think.
Fuck ’em, “Betty”.
And you.
They can stop this any time they want.
Weird, Betty, how the Palestinians and their apologists always whine when the IDF knocks down buildings used as ammo dumps.
Ric, the essential problem is that we now have three generations of Palestinians who have essentially been taught to be insane. I’m not sure we can cure that insanity, and I’m quite sure that allowing them to practice their insanity on any Israeli citizen they can is morally wrong.
“Comment by SDN on 1/4 @ 7:32 pm #
Ric, the essential problem is that we now have three generations of Palestinians who have essentially been taught to be insane.”
No wonder alpo and seman are in love with the murderous little fucks.
Rob @ 223…
Not sure I get your point. The “ammo dumps” were in Israeli homes.
Peace, SBP. When I made the comment she quoted, it was intended as troll bait. Please look closely at the date (teeny letters at upper left). August ’05! No, the Israelis don’t have entirely clean hands, and in this case they were in something of a snit. The settlers had built those structures with their own money and/or hands, and had no intention of letting the dirty Arabs use them. Please note, though, that these structures are private houses and ancillary structures (guardhouses of gated communities, garages, community meeting rooms, and the like) rather than genuine public facilities.
The “Eretz Israel” creeps aren’t any nicer than Hamas is. The difference is that, while they are influential enough that the Israeli Government has to tolerate the West Bank settlements even though they inflame a bad situation, they are neither in control of the Government, likely to get there, nor calling for extermination of the Arabs.
Betty, thank you for that one. I didn’t have it. Stick around; if you’re actually willing to look stuff up and link to it, rather than just selecting from the .insult file, you might be somebody we could disagree with rather than despising.
Regards,
Ric
Apologies if I misunderstood you, Betty.
Does that mean you don’t like Darleen’s boilerplate accusations on anti-semitism, Ric?
My mistake — I assumed this was after the Palestinians had moved in.
Weird, though, how few casualties were involved in clearing those caches. Almost as if Israelis — even their extremists — don’t want to slaughter people indiscriminately.
“Comment by cranky-d on 1/4 @ 4:48 pm #
What does it matter what job anyone here has?”
It’s important to seman and alpo, it’s gives them something else to mindlessly insult the intelligent posters on pw.
“Comment by parsnip on 1/4 @ 5:12 pm #
It’s not like Olmert and his band of cowardly right wing extremists are in the front lines either, Sdferr.”
And your MOS was……what?
Like the deranged freak your are you’ve already posted my spam catcher email account, my IP address and have openly encouraged persons to hassle me, while I’ve done none of the same towards you. And you have the gall to insist you’re not a nutter.
BTW, you earn less than the amount I owe in income taxes some years, much less. Hope that gives you heart burn, Missy Reaganomics. And no, you can’t rent my basement.
Comment by thor on 1/4 @ 8:30 pm #
It’s everywhere.
Sorta like dog shit.
“BTW, you earn less than the amount I owe in income taxes some years, much less.”
HAHAHYAHAHAHAHAAAHHHHH!!!!!!11!!!!
thor is off his meds again.
I’m monster truck concise. Compared to you, anyway.
I give. thor and actus have convinced me. I am going over to the exteme left-wing racist side. Their brilliant arguments won me over. I am now a fascist totalitarian.
Not. They still suck.
My income taxes cover you and your booted son. Thanks for reminding me.
::chuckle:: Yeah, I’m verbose. Prolix, even.
I’m also broke, I have bad teeth, and there are broken-down cars in my front yard.
Work harder, thor. I’m sure you can find an insult that sticks. Maybe you should have another couple of snorts first.
Regards,
Ric
I’m monster truck concise.
Um, what?
And your MOS was……what?
Remember the last Israeli Chief of Staff who, before launching Israel’s losing war against Heazbollah, stopped by his broker to conduct a little war profiteering then checked himself into the hospital for the duration with a tummy ache?
Olmert crouching in his bunker’s got nothing on him.
Do you know what an MOS is parsnip?
parsnip/alphie/actus: “Look–something shiny.”
One does not get dubbed the Talking Telephone Pole by accident.
Truly, Our Lady of the Suppositories is a fishwife with a tight snood. I await my knucklerapping.
Mitty, you magnificent bastard!
Following the spirit of Ric’s post @ 227, I will commence serpentine maneuvering to avoid the sniping, and link to some more stuff…
First, to you, Ric. It’s true that the “Eretz Yisrael” groups do not control government, but they do control the formation of ruling coalitions. Shas and Yisrael Beiteinu are the examples I will cite. They wield a ton of leverage.
Next, to Rob @ 230. The problem with making that sort of sweeping generalization is you wind up face to face with Baruch Goldstein. I’m not arguing equivalence. It’s just that things get complicated.
The problem with making that sort of sweeping generalization is you wind up face to face with Baruch Goldstein. I’m not arguing equivalence.
Aren’t you? Indeed, Baruch the butcher is lauded by fringies. There are Americans who celebrate Hitler and name their kids after him.
But Israel does not celebrate him, does not honor him, does not name streets or soccer teams after him.
That’s why I wrote that I’m not arguing equivalence.
Hi there Betty. What, I wonder, are you arguing, if anything?
I’m not arguing. Darleen compared the “fringies” in Israel to Americans who name their kids after Hitler. As far as I know, one American has named his child after Hitler. The “fringies” in Israel who laud Baruch Goldstein hold political power. That’s what I meant by, “It’s just that things get complicated.”
Betty,
Hey, the sniping is half the fun. You just need to make sure your armor’s in position, and indulge occasionally in counterbattery fire.
Yes. I have an acquaintance who donates (or used to) to Shas, so I’ve heard some about it. (Thanks for the spelling correction. I always forget the “Y”.) But I don’t believe, and didn’t then, that the settlements are a basic problem. They’re a major irritant that tends to inflame discussions of other problems, but ultimately they’re more of a symptom than anything fundamental. The fundamental problem is cultural, and in the end revolves around the seemingly-trivial issue of land titles. At least at the time I knew more nearly directly, the settlers followed the practice of finding someone who had at least apparent title to the land and buying it, or accepted it from the Government as “unseated”. The Arabs’ response seems to be that the “owners” who sold had no right to do so, and both parties start yelling about how the Ottomans managed things and who their proper successors are… it’s a moderately intractable problem, but not in the end insoluble if there were even a modicum of goodwill between the parties. (Prejudice alert: I’ve had a lot of dealings with land surveyors in my life.)
The situation is complex, yes, but not all that complex. Yeah, there are and have been some nasty characters amongst Israelis, and some of the founders of Israel are some of the worst of them; but the “exterminate the Arabs!” extremists are a minority of Israelis and always have been, whereas the “tolerate the Israelis!” party among the Arabs is small and tending toward nonexistence. This bodes ill for future coexistence.
Regards,
Ric
But I don’t believe, and didn’t then, that the settlements are a basic problem.
Illegal immigrants aren’t a problem in America, Ric?
Darleen hates Jews, except when she wants to be one.
Betty — how many Israelis have emulated Goldstein’s crime? How many Palestinians have committed similar crimes?
Does the Israeli government encourage people to follow in Goldstein’s crime, or does it punish people who even make the attempt?
In the end, the Israelis do their best to maintain the monopoly on force emanating from their territory; the Palestinians do their best to simultaneously encourage attacks and deny being able to do anything about them.
Sometimes I think people like to find complexity so as to avoid making a real decision. And, yes, I am aware that a sweeping generalization will run into exceptions — but neither am I going to stop making judgments based on the behavior of a majority of a group of people.
Back to part of what Dan firstly attempted in the topic. Was it not a stereotypical liberal who was the informant? Therefore one from the tribe of law-abiders informed on two from the tribe of criminal conspirators, no?
To always create divides via political right or left per how one voted in the last election truly only delineates those who never cross over. I see myself as more fluid and willing to isolate certain issues or candidates from the typical two-tribe Dem-Repub divide. You might be less so, but we are both in the law-abiders tribe. We have an agreed priority toward civility, I assume.
For the most part in the divide between the Israelis and the Palestinians we relate more toward the tribe that better matches our civility definition, the Israelis, inasmuch as the Israelis display more the ideals of civility than their counterpart Palestinians? Not to belabor my generalization directed toward Darleen, but in that example I noted her attitudinal tribe shares little politically with the mainstream Israeli (contra to her laughable denial) but this is over-ridden, again, by the shared ideals of civility of our shared Westernized ideals and definitions.
Theirs is a clash of civilizations, as I see it, for how you define “civilized” and how one prioritizes civility more often than not trumps the political, ethnic, geographic, etc.., tribal dividers when choosing a tribe in this conflict.
Here’s the tie-in to the San Fran tribal activity you initially pointed out, I know non-American Poles and Slavs who are Jewish who now live in Israel. They have lived under Communist rule, and are in agreement with certain of its priorities, the noble ones. They were never in agreement with the Communists’ civility and this, of course, is one of the reasons they emigrated to Israel. Again, politically these Israelis are far left of your typical Ruby Ridge Repub and most Orthodox Jewry, but they were never in agreement with the far Leftists, or Communists (shocka for a typical redumblican, there was always dissent behind the iron curtain between Socialists and Communists, etc..). It could be said the state of Israel is not primarily bound by Judaism buy definitive agreements of civility, I proffer, and similarly certain of the San Fran are not only bound by liberal political ideals but in agreements of civility. The overarching metanarrative is civility, more specifically the order in which it’s prioritized.
Tah, dah.
buy = but by
You have an amazing grasp of the obvious, thor. Too bad you use it so sparingly.
You’re an obvious idiocy petard, BMoe.
B Moe, be generous.
thor has traveled the world, discovering in the process that the Sun rises in the East because the surface of the Earth is traveling in a generally easterly direction. Since we don’t always preface discussions of, say, city planning with a precis of that situation he concludes that we don’t know it, and is anxious to show off his erudition plus warning us against mistakes in site planning due to erroneous placing of the anticipated sunrise.
Regards,
Ric
And Israel, of course, does not have that luxury.
The sunrise inhibits your tribe’s nocturnal simplicity, Ric, which begs analysis.
“My income taxes cover you and your booted son. Thanks for reminding me.”
Go take your meds, thor and take a nice long nap.
Prom Night Dumpster Baby
Damn, wrong thread!
Back to part of what Dan firstly attempted in the topic. Was it not a stereotypical liberal who was the informant? Therefore one from the tribe of law-abiders informed on two from the tribe of criminal conspirators, no?
If he were truly stereotypical, Thor, the vast majority of the remaining “liberals” would be praising Brandon Darby, not vilifying him as a traitor. Why would the “activist community” be more “stunned” at Darby’s informing than McKay and Crowder’s violence?
Because they support the violence.
Duh.
Shhhh…don’t give him any hints.
Haven’t read the whole thread, but by parsnip’s definition, because Hamas was voted into power, the moderates in Gaza have been disappeared. They’re pretty much all Hamas, now.
No, I don’t think that, but parsnip would if it was at all consistent.
Still, the fact that lots of folks in Gaza chose the party that wants to do away with those pesky Jews entirely seems to consistently evade parsnip’s cognition.
Slart, the link I posted in 216 written by Khaled Abu Toameh, an Israeli-Arab journalist working in Gaza lays out where the Gazans stand vis a vis Ham-ass pretty clearly and convincingly.
Oh, I believe you. But it should be noted that not EVERY Palestinian voted for Hamas.
So, ‘cleo has a point, even if it’s directed at a strawman. I was just taking a passing swing at parsnip’s eternal chant that conservatives have been extinctified.
Swing away for all you’re worth with my blessing, you’ll have no quarrel from here. That not all Palestinians in Gaza voted for Ham-ass ought to be clear to anyone paying the least attention to the murders, abductions and kneecappings Ham-ass has been carrying out on their fellow Palis for the last three years (even an evident moron could see that if it chose to open its eyes, unball its little Jew-hating fists and look).
Actually Slart, the reason I posted 270 to reiterate what Toameh wrote had little to do with your post, but used yours as I did as a jump-off point to pre-empt lying shit like this (which I just now encountered at Commentary):
I had no idea at the time I posted 270 that I would run into the very idiocy I suspected would come from Ham-ass apologists within the very next ten minutes. But then no crystal-ball reads entirely clearly anyhow, so meh.
Sometimes I think people like to find complexity so as to avoid making a real decision.
It’s not a matter of liking it. Real decisions are made after working through complex issues. Take a look at where things stood in 2001, as President Bush took office. The Taba conference did not search for complexity, it acknowledged and confronted complexity. The people sitting around the table at Taba were the realists. Arafat was the ideologue who avoided “making a real decision.” The “people who like to find complexity” are the ones who have been shoved aside for the last eight years. Here is Secy. of State Condoleezza Rice with simplified decision making:
“For 60 years, my country, the United States, pursued stability at the expense of democracy in this region here in the Middle East — and we achieved neither. Now, we are taking a different course. We are supporting the democratic aspirations of all people.”
Sounds wonderful. No complexity, a real decision. How’s it working out?
Are we there yet? How long until we get there?
Precisely what David Sanger had to say yesterday on MTP about the State of Iraq. Pitching a quiet little tantrum that says “Ach! It’s not a perfect democracy yet!” Impatient putzes, this sort, if you ask me. Give it time, children, we’ll get there.
Well, we’re identifying the aspirations of both sides. And having done that decisions are being made to achieve them. Given that they’re diametrically opposed, there’s a problem to resolve. You’re seeing that happening now.
Say, when will Gaza have its next elections?
Impatient putzes, this sort…
Ungrateful, too.
Iraq is looking pretty good these days, better than it’s looked in decades. Allawi, not so much. Speaking of failures…
How convenient for Allawi to throw much of his own failure to bring sectarian forces together and never build any confidence in his leadership on the evil BushhitlerBurton.
Someday, people will be blaming Bush for the common cold and rainy days, methinks.
Og course to accept Allawi’s definition of “utter failure” you would have to willfully ignore the three elections, a (at least) semi functioning democracy in a monarchical/Theocratic region and the fact that al qaeda, after some early “success” was forced to leave Iraq with their tails between their legs in humiliation.
You know, Toe-May-Toe, Toe-Mah-Toe.
Ace plunked a link to this, a good catch I think. A snippet:
[…] Gaza and Hizballah, By David Schenker; and “Keep in mind that these radicalized Muslims consider it their duty according to the Koran to convert or slaughter their opponents at the point of the sword or the tip of a missile. What, again, is proportionality in such […]
#281 Sdferr:
You silly! No Jews were involved! The West wasn’t involved!
Thus no oppression and no war-crimes! It’s all a big pass to the perpetually outraged.
What does it mean when a Republican Congressman comes up with something even stupider than any of our trolls?
http://hotair.com/archives/2009/01/05/video-ron-paul-laments-israels-preemptive-war/
Dude, it was Luap Nor. I’d be surprised if he said something that wasn’t stupid.
But even alphie isn’t stupid enough to call Israel’s action preemptive. I mean, damn!
Give him time.
OT: Leon Friggin’ Panetta. More HOPE! and CHANGE!
Nice to see that he’s getting rewarded for the WRONG advice given by the “Iraq Study Group”.
Yeah, Glenn isn’t hard enough on the Muslims – becasue I’ve noticed that people are pretty neutral in the US media re: Israel vs. Pal. What we really need is another voice to say Israel should be able to do whatever they want, and then maybe – just maybe – we can convince the U.S. to give Israel a fair shake. Who knows: that sort od ground swell might lead to political will, and maybe the US will even give Israel some military aid. We’re just a few pro-Israeli voices away. Dissent is good.
And you know what pisses me off the most? The ratio of Palestinian civilian to Israeli civi;ians killed is only like, 100:1, and these people are crying about proportionality? What’s that about? Does anyone realize what these people are chanting in SF?
aw, if only you’d put that in a current thread. cause we haven’t seen that turd floated quite enough the last few days.
ooooh, perhaps you could explain what a defensive tunnel is?
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