From Pandagon’s Jesse Taylor (erstwhile conductor of the muscular Jerry Springer political freight train):
I bow to you, Jeff Goldstein. You have redefined correctitude in my eyes, other random conservatives. American Thinker, you smell like jasmine and sunshine.
However, you are all still idiots.
I know that remembering all the way back to five years ago is like super hard and stuff, but let’s remember why we went through Plamegate in the first place. One of the central allegations of war supporters in 2002 was that Hussein was attempting to acquire new yellowcake and aluminum tubes for a centrifuge program…because it wouldn’t have the ability to produce weapons-grade material with the material we knew they had prior to the war.[*]
Contending that the presence of preexisting yellowcake is de facto evidence of the reinvigorated weapons program that was the cause for war is like contending that my recipe for fried fish is de facto evidence of the seafood restaurant I’m running. I remember a few years back when every pro-war conservative declared that the real reason we went to war wasn’t anything that you’d recognize, but instead some bizarre ideal they pulled out of their asses between RNCC blogger calls and masturbatory uses of the word “fiskingâ€Â.
I miss the old days. They were just as dumb, but a lot less predictable.
Now, Jesse Taylor has never been known as the brightest mini-bulb in the collective lefty chandelier, so it’s not surprising that he’d miss the point of my post — namely, that Iraq is looking a lot different now that the “last remnant” (a phrase that suggests, necessarily, other additional and prior remnants) of Saddam’s yellowcake stockpiles have been escorted out of the middle east, a region not particularly known for its fidelity to rules of decorum, or for its respect of gorgeously embossed UN paper threats.
Too, he seems to misunderstand the idea of “terror,” which I suspect would require nothing more than setting off a bomb with a radioactive component — at which point even Jesse Taylor might be clamoring for the NSA to “wiretap” every taxi in Red Hook, NJ. After all, the idea of “terrorism” is to terrify, and given the sensationalist bent of our media (see, eg., Katrina, with its attendant cannibalism, gang rapes, and the shooting down of helicopters), the mere combination of the words “bomb” and “radiation” or “radioactive” would almost certainly produce in the populace the kind of panic that leads to an even more aggressive tightening of civil liberties, as well as a call for increased counter measures against those launching the attacks.
Thus, the fact that the yellowcake in question was old and “sealed” by the IAEA does not, so far as I can tell, indicate how UN safeguarding was supposed to work in a country hostile to inspections — or, as the American Thinker’s Douglas Hanson, Chief of Staff of the Ministry of Science and Technology for the Coalition Provisional Authority during the Summer of 2003, noted in 2004 —
why […] the IAEA allow[ed] Iraq to retain such massive amounts of nuclear material, when its three nuclear facilities had been destroyed over 12 years ago, and have never been repaired? In fact, the Russian reactor is so hot, it would take years to clean up the facility; it’s a total write off. Iraq had no legitimate reason to have possessed the yellowcake.
And speaking of the storage and accountability of the radioactive material, who maintained those seals, anyway? Let’s see the paperwork.
And why didn’t the UN ship the yellowcake and the lowâ€â€enriched uranium out of the country 12 years ago? Wouldn’t the UN be interested in denying Saddam the nuclear raw materials, in case he decided to conduct enrichment by calutron at facilities such as Tarmiya and alâ€â€Fajar?
It appears the IAEA is not really interested in nonâ€â€proliferation at all; otherwise this material would have long ago been safeguarded in another country. Thankfully, this overdue evacuation of a dangerous stockpile has finally been started by the DOE, even if much more remains to be done.
Beyond that, however, what Jesse also fails to mention is that, again as Douglas Hanson reported in 2004:
Yellowcake is uranium ore that has been milled to produce a pure form of the substance known as Uranium Oxide. Further processes, such as conversion and enrichment, are required to make the yellowcake suitable for use as nuclear fuel in a reactor or for use in a nuclear weapon. Interestingly, a quantity of depleted uranium was also found at Tuwaitha. This implies that some enrichment processes occurred onâ€â€site, as depleted uranium is the natural byproduct of the enrichment process.
In addition to the yellowcake, approximately 300 tons of radioisotopes for industrial and medical uses were stored at primarily Site B. These materials, numbering over 1000 radioactive items retrieved from the site, included Cesiumâ€â€137 and Cobaltâ€â€60. Both are extremely radioactive substances that are ideal for use in Radiological Dispersal Devices (RDD), or ‘dirty bombs.’
There are also three key facilities on the Alâ€â€Tuwaitha reservation that are rarely mentioned in media accounts of the transfer. First, there is the French reactor at Site B, better known as Osirak, which was destroyed by the Israelis in 1981 in Operation Opera. The second facility is the Russian built reactor at Site A, destroyed by the US in Gulf War I in 1991. The third facility is a fuel fabrication plant at Site D, also destroyed in 1991. All three facilities have never been rebuilt. All spent fuel or fresh fuel was sent back to the country of origin after Gulf War I.
[my emphases]
Again — and just to be clear — the purpose of my post was not to highlight a sudden discovery of heretofore unknown quantities of yellowcake in Iraq; rather, what I was highlighting was the efforts of the DOE to remove the last remnants of yellowcake from Iraq, where it was sitting under seal, guarded by official-looking UN masking tape and an IAEA whose effectiveness is, at best, debatable.
The point being that, had the US followed prevailing wisdom and lifted sanctions on Iraq prior to 911 (as many had been proposing), this yellowcake would have been “returned” to the Iraqi government, where it would be put to use in ways that are perhaps hinted at by the discovery, on the site, of depleted uranium, a by-product of uranium enrichment. Which, it seems to me, suggests that the technology to enrich uranium was available to Saddam at some point — the logical corollary to that observation being that leaving stockpiles of “harmless” yellowcake lying around a country that had flouted UN directives consistently enough to warrant a US invasion was probably not the best course of action for those western countries against whom Al Qaeda had declared war.
Similarly — and even if we bracket the possibility that Saddam could ever effectively reconstitute a nuclear program (with the AQ Khan revelations, I’m not sure how one can posit such a thing as a technological blackout, but then, what do I know…) — the fact that Al Qaeda and its affiliate groups were active in Iraq presented the possibility that they could have acquired some of this material, and used it not as a way to launch a nuclear holocaust against the west, but rather to launch attacks intended to terrify and to alter our way of life, which, as they themselves have maintained, has been one of their primary goals.
Or — and here’s where we can take the Jesse Taylor postulate, a proud product of “reality-based community” thinking, and apply it to global landscape: maybe Saddam was just kinda keeping the stuff around for his kids — a bit of nostalgia for the Ba’athist glory days, much like skinheads collect old Nazi paraphernalia.
And really, that’s just an appeal to heritage. And who are we to deny the Other his heritage — unless, of course, that Other happens to be, say, someone who adheres to Enlightenment principles, or who maintains a commitment to judeochristian ethics.
Because really, that stuff is just so mind-bogglingly modernist. And you can’t get laid in grad school quoting “Prufrock” these days…
— Or if you’re Jesse Taylor, for that matter — though for reasons having more to do with being a congenital prick than with anything having to do with “The Wasteland”. Is my guess.
Jeff;
No matter how much CPR you give to that swayback Gelding known as Iraq, it, along with your canine companion Ol’ Yeller, your signature issue;
‘The Dangers of Saddam’ is a dead, dead horse.
Tell that to the Kuwaitis, Cleo.
It’s easy to feel safe in Fortress America, but over in the Mid-East, nations launch salvos against each other with a pretty regular frequency.
Yeah, c’mon Jeff, what’s a few dead Israelis/Kurds/Iranians/Saudis/Kuwaitis/Americans between friends?
At least Saddam wasn’t Bush.
‘The Dangers of Saddam’ is a dead, dead horse cause he’s not dangerous no mores in spite of Baracky’s best efforts. Thank you, President Bush. I’m glad you were looking out for us.
True. I saw the pictures. Damn near tore the fucker’s head off, if I remember that dead dead thing correctly.
Saddam did have those
rape roomssex education classes that progressives champion.Why, Semanticleo, how…nice…of you to thus render the Marsh Arabs so very very unimportant.
How you must luxuriate in your smugness! The deaths of thousands of brown people very far away, who never affected you personally in any manner, only matter when you can lay them at the Western world’s collective feet, rather than the…Other, so sadly found years later in a spider hole.
Do you light the candles in front of your shrine to Saddam daily, or only on weekends?
Because Richard Armitage told Bob Novak something about Valerie Plame?
Hey, it subsequently turned out to be true, so any other notion held contemporaneously – say, one involving Booooosh and Cheney and Libby – is both non-operative and, through the magic of lefty-thinking never was.
Wrong, Jesse Taylor, wrong!
Go back, young man, and read Bush’s actual, you know, words from his speeches and take them at face value. As the events subsequent to 2002 show that Bush managed to say what he meant and, shockingly, meant what he said with regard to Iraq.
The use of the information about the acquisition of yellowcake from Africa and the issue of why Saddam needed beyond-milspec aluminum tubes were data used by in support of the war, but were hardly central to the arguments made for war.
.
The lesson to be learned from Saddam’s Gambit was this – when told to destroy your stockpiles of illegal munitions, save the receipts.
Why, Semanticleo, how…nice…of you to thus render the Marsh Arabs so very very unimportant.
And, those Kurds were asking for it!
Hey, look what I found:
Guess who said that. Go ahead. Guess! *
just like I said, hopeless…..
Just for your info- inhumane preemptive doctrine of INVADING the countries which did not attack us , thus causing destruction and death one purported to come and save them from,- is dead, at least for now.
(Shaking his head in amazement at the stubbornness and intellectual statism of some)
I am fully expecting the advocacy for invading Pakistan, nuclear armed for sure and with pre-existing bands of terrorist roaming the caves and plains unharmed…
Because really, that stuff is just so mind-bogglingly modernist. And you can’t get laid in grad school quoting “Prufrock†these days…
So that’s what I was doing wrong.
“…expecting the advocacy…” Sashal, as though it is to come in the future when Baracky has already promised it months ago? Where have you been?
Shake your moronic head all you want, you pea-brained dumbfuck. What is hopeless is your ability ever to reconcile your own freedom now with the freedom Iraqis are fighting and dying for — and the role the US has played in both.
Pull the ladder up after yourself, you selfish prick. And then hide behind your former claim to being under the bootheels of oppression yourself as a way to lend your muddled arguments moral authority.
Your thinking is a welter of disorganized thoughts that run counter to themselves so often that it’s no wonder you come across as someone trying to speak through a giant knot.
Sorry, sashal, thats the Obamessiah that wants to invade Pakistan. I’ve never heard any conservative persona bring it up.
but we should if we follow your logic.
I was unaware that we had signed some sort of cease fire with Pakistan. I guess you have to admire sasha for totally ignoring only certain aspects of the (second) war with Iraq.
What’s the point of having the UN issue warnings, sashal, if nothing is to be done about those who flout them? Have you ever stopped to think things through even a little bit?
Comment by Semanticleo on 7/7 @ 10:17 am #
Do you speak English?
No, what logic is that? Saddam had been an avowed enemy of the US for over 15 years. (Cue, RUMSFIELD HANDSHAKING!!!1!!!) In contrast, Pakistan’s government has been working with us. Not as much as we’d like, for sure, but cooperating none the less.
Your BLEARG SHOOT BROWN PEOPLE caricature of conservative positions is grossly misinformed.
inhumane preemptive doctrine of INVADING the countries which did not attack us
sashal: Iraq fired on US planes thousands of times. Thousands.
You’ve been called on this lie before, but you keep repeating it.
Thus, I conclude that you have no interest whatsoever in an honest discussion.
as I said here before,
nobody wants to pay for freedom with the lives of his mother, or brother, or sister, or friend or….
Benevolent invasions are trotskyist bull-crap, conservatives my ass…
Yes, we all want freedoms for us and our families, all the people on this planet, and they do not come cheap many times, they require struggle, revolutions, perestroika etc….
but they do not require somebody else come and do it for me….especially if I may not survive your generosity…
Can I borrow some money sasha, say ten grand or so? I swear I’ll pay it back with interest in just 7 days.
So, the American Revolution was bad, because the French helped us?
So, the American Revolution was bad, because the French helped us?
Yes, and that whole D-Day thing? Pure imperialism.
O’K , Jeff at #18.
We fulfilled the UN obligations. The war was right. I agree.
Case closed.
I guess we can return the Statue of Liberty next year too right Techie?
sashal,
As I have noted before, your perestroika and eventual revolution would never have come had it not been for a range of aggressive US policies, including proxy wars (from which you separate invasions for reasons you have yet to explain). Which is why Jeff is calling you selfish and incoherent.
So democracy in Germany and Japan were bad because we did it for them?
Hey, dickhead. This wasn’t some “benevolent invasion.” It so happened that the interests of the US were such that, of all the available places on earth where freeing an oppressed populace might take place, it took place in Iraq.
The balance of pragmatism with idealism is why we sought to free the Iraqis and help them rebuild the country rather than simply rain hellfire down on that country, which were were certainly capable of doing. But there was more involved than simply “preemptive warfare.” The idea was to try to change the calculus in the ME — to get away from the “realism” that lefties used to decry (but now embrace) and that Republicans like George HW Bush embraced (but which neocons now decry).
Once you figure out that the calculus was more complex than you pretend, it’ll come clear to you. Or maybe not. You seem particularly dense.
Again, you were saved. So fuck those who weren’t. Time to PARTY!
Comment by ProggHero on 7/7 @ 11:11 am #
Shut up, froggy, the adults are talking.
EG, no problem, I will charge 10%
What does that have to do with anything I said, Proggie?
Great, and to be sure I pay it back we will put the UN in charge of collections.
Jeff,
It’s obvious – you are going to have to start writing with fewer, smaller words. And maybe some pictures.
As soon as it was discovered that there were no WMD the war was wrong. As much as you guys want to obfuscate it still is wrong.
Karl, and if you remember, I did not have any problem with that type of help, if you can pull that link, you will see…
22. not a fan of Bush or the Iraq war(check my comments hereabout), but I have to note: a lot more Iraqi’s are currently surviving the U.S.’s “generosity.” Some are even doing well; and if we can an oil trust fund squared away, even more change is in the offing.
In short, even an avowed Iraqi-war bear such as myself has to adm itit does look like a different sort of Iraq may emerge.
what then? where does that leave those sorts of arguments, if in the end, Bush’s gambit proves correct….that a democratic, parlimentary Iraq emerges.
what then?
as I said here before,
nobody wants to pay for freedom with the lives of his mother, or brother, or sister, or friend
In America sasha, adult men enlist (and women). In America adult men were raised to know that they have a choice, and some of our greatest men choose to stand in the gap for the country they love. In America, we don’t pay with others, the greatest of us kick in – like men. In your world, you are at the mercy of someone else to decide what your purpose is. You and whoever decided who you would be are clearly idiots.
sashal….
Read up on the Hungarian Revolution of 1956…see what happens when “someone else” doesn’t come (as you seem to be a proponent of…bootstrap policies when it comes to obtaining freedom I suppose, but entitlement policies once you have it) and help after you’ve tried to do it yourself.
Ick, people who present themselves as intelligent but have no concept of history bother me.
Hush, Proggs. The adults are talking.
The American revolution was started by Americans, and then French came to help.
Am I right Techie?
Progghero —
I don’t believe I’ve addressed you before, because frankly, I’m of the opinion you simply MUST be a parody. But just in case, take a look at what you just wrote.
Now, go find yourself a wizard. Slay him and take his crystal ball. Place that in the war room at the White House. And then all will be well again, and we can get back to the business of pretending the earth is in trouble because caribou have to cross an ice road.
From what I can gather from sashal’s writing–even if we see someone in need of help, we should not act to help that person, because the person needs to struggle along to succeed or fail alone–and the most we ought to do in wring our hands and perhaps pass out post-it notes to the others watching the struggle? Have I got it right?
I don’t even know how to begin to tear that apart…
– The Left is going to spare no amount of blogging bandwidth, and MSM articles, laboring into the night to try to talk away their royal fuckup in declaring the Iraq war totally lost. Remember Reid standing there at the microphone declaring we “have lost the war in Iraq, and we need to come home immediately”. Pelosi, Kebbedy, Dean, Obama. But now of course their messiah is suddenly flip-flopping. He knows their looking like cowards, and idiots, so hes trying to wiggle out of the “stuck on stupid” corner his nutroots has painted the whole Dem party into.
– They don’t give a fuck about either the ME or Iraq, they never did. They believed, and still do, they couldn’t win the WH as long as we were at war.
– All this bullshit of wanting to tie the war to on single goal that has turned out minimal at best, in this case the obsessiveness over WMD’s, is their way of changing the subject. All the other goals go unrecignized because they NEED a loss in Iraq.
– They can’t come out and just say they wish Hussein was still in power, supporting any totalitarian regime in existence as they must. If they did that they’d be even more hated and shunned than they already are.
– So they try to hold the Narrative to some ancillary topic to avoid the truth on the ground.
– Fuck them. Iraq us going to be a Democracy of a sorts, a win for us and a square kick in the ass for the Left and their anti-American Marxist crap.
– Whenever a Lefty asshole starts in about WMD, just say to him, yes, I know, we’ve won and its a freaking bitch for you. Eat it douchenozzle.
Well hopefully if McCain wins he will find a way for an illegal immigrant to serve in the military then we can go to war with whoever we want!!!!!
Here’s some self interest to hit sashal over the head with.
And ProggHero thinks Superman should fly really really fast around the earth to turn back time…
See, I use ellipses when I am so gasted of my flabber that I can’t even express how smacked of my gob I am.
Hungarian revolution, proves my point, the country population rose for freedom on it’s own.
The soviets came and drowned the freedoms in blood, I wish NATO would have helped Hungarians.
This is the case where we would have been righteous, protecting Hungary from invasion….
As soon as it was discovered that there were no WMD the war was wrong except that WMD really is more of a state of mind, really, than a thing you point at and say hey look at that WMD thinger. It’s not just a matter of it being well-documented that Saddam was positioned to quickly reconstitute his programs. It’s that his was a dangerous and evil regime that was positioned to quickly reconstitute their WMD programs.
But now freedom and rule of law have gained purchase in the Middle East. This is something new.
On a more banal note, if Baracky had been in charge today we would be living in a world where Saudi Arabia’s oil facilities were well within range of Iraqi missiles. If you don’t understand what that means then you don’t get to play anymore I don’t think.
Again, thank you, Mr. Bush. You done good.
Well the good news is that in the future our policy is more likely to be benevolent bombing-the-absolute-crap-out-of-anything-worth-anything than benevolent invasion.
#46, knocked over and looped I am.
As soon as it was discovered that there were no WMD the war was wrong. As much as you guys want to obfuscate it still is wrong.
So all those ties to terrorists and human rights violations don’t count.
EG 51, see you are half way already there to the truth , isn’t that what benevolent idiot Clinton did when destroyed sovereign country in Europe -Serbia and letting usurpers and Islamists to declare independence in the middle of Europe ?
– or the thousands of mass graves, the rape rooms, the torture, the gassings, all that was just for the Iraqi’a own good.
– Fuck the Left/SecProggs. The on;y things they give a damn about is themselves and power. They’re amoral, unprincipled, lying scum.
So….based on your “Logic” sashal, we can only help a people obtain independence from a crushing dictatorial government, after that people has been crushed by trying obtain that independence? Hmmmm, to reference a previously posted link.
Is there a timeline, or do the bodies of the political prisoners executed under a dictator have an assistance expiration date much like delicious cold cuts…yummy publically executed cold cuts.
So I’ve been away from my favorite blog for several days. It seems proggie is still dropping his little stool samples here and there in the comments.
#37: sashal, way to miss the point, which is that you have yet to explain why waging proxy wars are okay, but waging them directly is not.
But that would have been Trotskyite Bolshevism!!!~!!
Fuck off and die, Sashal. You have no idea what you’re talking about in regards to American history, spirit, and ideals. The generations that toiled and sacrificed so that you may enjoy freedom have their heirs in the soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan, not in the whiners and spoiled children who would condemn millions to slavery so as to avoid unpleasantness on the evening news.
Oh, look, there’s Mother Russia’s propaganda from sashal’s mouth!
sashal
Find for me a POTUS that has not used force as a means of foreign policy. I’ll grant you Carter.
You claim to love this country, and yet I don’t think you have a firm grip on it’s history. We use violence to serve our interests when it is clear than there is no other way.
Given that Saddam was continuously in violation of the cease fire agreements, and given the realities of a post 9/11 world, the idea that we were going to allow an avowed enemy of the US like Saddam to continue his madness is simply unrealistic.
You don’t have to love it, but it would help if you tried to understand it.
#49: sashal,
If you think NATO should have helped the Hungarians, then you should study up on the way that Bush 41 and Clinton screwed over the Iraqi Shia and Kurds in exactly the same way — which is one of the main reasons that a proxy war was off the table in 2002.
And the drumbeat about the tainted tree continues.
Jeremy, fine, go help everybody, just keep in mind how many countries there might be, and try to calculate how many millions we should to enlist to be able to occupy all of them at the same time, so no freedom fighter in Burma will have preferential treatment from us then the same guy in Zimbabve, otherwise your theory is crap…..
and pure Utopian fantasy;
we are not omnipotent, no matter how strong our army is and how great are our intentions. The world need pragmatic approach, not the romanticism of revolutionary writers of the 19th century…
Jeff,
For a goof, ask Taylor to repost his senior thesis. Then, get ready to giggle incessantly as the poor lad goes from first to third & back to first person over & over.
Seriously, it’s that sad. Even worse when you consider that he was oblivious to his own ignorance, to the point of posting it on the web as though it were something to be proud of.
No kidding, try to get your hands on a scan of that baby. One of the more glaring examples of colleges pushing through blithering idiots.
“that a democratic, parlimentary Iraq emerges.
what then?”
They’ll be our allies against Islamic Jihadists who waged their filthy barbarism in Iraq. Radical Islamists hamas-hizballah from Iran and Al Queda from Warzistan made themselves the enemy of the Iraq people and they won’t forget, especially the children.
Rob “But that would have been Trotskyite Bolshevism!!!~!!
Fuck off and die, Sashal. You have no idea what you’re talking about in regards to American history, spirit, and ideals. The generations that toiled and sacrificed so that you may enjoy freedom have their heirs in the soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan, not in the whiners and spoiled children who would condemn millions to slavery so as to avoid unpleasantness on the evening news.”
If this is true why do we have a country that claps, cheers, and buys beers for soldiers on the way to war then in a matter of 3 to 4 years wants to hit a reset button like it is a XBOX game? Not talking about the voting preferences of the American public but their penchant for being pro-war for a couple months until the reality sets in about what a war is then “oh no we shouldn’t have done that”. Sounds like the American traditions you talk about are all pretty much dead or definately should be if they mean nothing according to you.
“I’ll grant you Carter.”
– Actually Cahtah did have a small brush with aggression when he did his ill-fated, too little too late, fucked up plan to try to rescue the embassy people.
– The entire “rebirth” of the caliphate”, and everything that has subsequently happened, can be directly traced back to his handling of Iran.
– I don’t know how the delusional asshole can sleep at night.
Karl, I will tell you why the proxi wars(at least the ones we both are thinking) were more justifiable in my book.
When we had to push back against the spread of the communism, when they would take over the country or attack the country, when they attacked our allies and friends
“Sounds like the American traditions you talk about are all pretty much dead or definitely(cs) should be if they mean nothing according to you.”
– We know your side wants desperately to believe this lie. When you have no pride in country, or principles, you need people to agree, or you look pretty bad.
Who’s this “we”, kemo sabe?
Rob, in case you did not notice, I have stopped answering to you quite sometime ago. Sorry for interrupting this habit, this will not happen again.
So you can keep on with your impolite invectives against me unhindered
In the first 10 comments, there are 6 paeans to the dead of Saddam Hussein. Are these people unaware of the irony of decrying the thousands of Marsh Arab or Kurd fatalities while supporting the invasion and continued occupation which has killed and will to kill hundreds of thousands? The invasion which unleashed an ethnic cleansing so vast it makes Bosnia c. 1997 look like Disney world. The same invasion which has armed two camps (Shia and Sunni militias) with out money and our guns in attempt to keep the peace for a few months, so dullards can claim victory.
The chuztpah of claiming fealty to the dead Iraqis pre-2003 while favoring a policy then and now which resulted in the death of a hundred thousand plus! I doff my cap to you, sirs and madams, hypocrisy on that grand scale has not been seen since Nam’s “we had to destroy the village to save it.”
As for Mssr. Goldstein? A fine moving of the goalposts.
Gee. And I thought I’d already addressed this strawman preemptively. Right here. In this very thread, and in response to this very commenter.
Give it up, Sashal. You are unserious, and care only about trying to win a debate. And you are ill-equipped here to do so. Trust me.
sashal, just be happy that the world is a freer, happier place than it used to be except for the United Kingdom and also Canada but that’s totally not our fault. Baracky doesn’t talk a lot about making the world a freer place. I think he’s kind of a coward, cause he knows that following through on that sort of thing would be more harder than community organizing.
sashal
As someone wrote earlier, tell it to the Kuwaitis (or to Iran, for that matter). Left to its own devices, Saddam attacked his neighbors repeatedly.
And here, courtesy of ABC News:
So options like backing internal dissenters were simply not available in 2002, largely because most of them were slaughtered while we sat on our hands.
EG at # 61
“We use violence to serve our interests when it is clear than there is no other way.”
I completely agree with that sentence….
Comment by Big Bang Hunter (pumping you up) on 7/7 @ 11:44 am #
“Sounds like the American traditions you talk about are all pretty much dead or definitely(cs) should be if they mean nothing according to you.â€Â
– We know your side wants desperately to believe this lie. When you have no pride in country, or principles, you need people to agree, or you look pretty bad.
This really isn’t about any “side”. Please prove to me where I am wrong on my rationalization of the American publics history of sending troops to war and then being anti-war within a year or two. If they were really behind our success wouldn’t people be clamoring to see signs of our victory on TV? Wouldn’t Iraq war polls be running alot higher? Wouldn’t Harry Reid or John Murtha, who according to you people are insane, have been run outa politics by now?
Why is it that the left has become so fundamentally dishonest? “No WMDS?” Does that mean Proggie is volunteering to be dunked in the WMDs we recovered from Saddam’s depots?
Or is the power of Leftism such that they can look at the many tons of liquid and solid chemical agents we’ve recovered (not even counting the Yellowcake) and simply blink and move on?
You know, when you tell an obvious lie to support your own idiot ideology, you SHOULD be ashamed of yourself – an emotion I’m fairly sure sashal, Cleo and Proggie and unfamiliar with.
In other words, “we can’t do good everywhere, so let’s not do it anywhere, even when other issues say we should.”
FOAD, sashal. You have the classic European leftist mindset, and are utterly incapable of understanding American idealism.
Go read the lyrics to “Battle Hymn of the Republic”.
LearnedHand, quit spouting old lies and maybe I’ll fetch up an interest in what you have to say.
Let’s see…dying at the hands of a brutal regime that uses that brutality to retain its authoritarian power; or dying in a war at the end of which will come about self rule, a constitution, and a federational government that will serve, in the long run, to weaken the thrall of tribalism. With Iraqis fighting along side their “occupiers.”
Yeah. That’s pretty much a pick ’em there, Learnedhand.
I put a nickel in a jar every time a liberal uses the word “pragmatic”. It’s like NPR using the word “eclectic”…so cute.
Too wordy, dude. Here, you try:
“Joe Wilson is a lying sack of mendacious shit.”
See? How hard was that?
“Please prove to me where I am wrong on my rationalization of the American publics history of sending troops to war and then being anti-war within a year or two.”
Yeah, back in 1943 that’s all the public did–protest against the war.
Coward.
#77 sashal
But clearly you disagree that there was no other way. Which, of course, is your right to do in a free society. That said, the powers that be, by an overwhelming majority, were inclined to disagree with your position.
In any case, as I have said time and time again, all the hand wringing in the world will not change the fact the we did invade Iraq. All of the fathers of all the hot Iraqi daughters are at least secretly pleased by this.
That’s not America. That’s the American Left.
hundreds of thousands
Lancet man!!!11!one!!eleventy!!!one!!
That’s funny ushie how many of them do you still see alive?
What about the revolutionary writers of the 18th century?
Or would you rather America abandon its commitment to the freedom of Man, so as to not disturb your comfort?
Jeremy at #83, in case you did not know , I am a liberal, big time flaming one.
Oh, and one more thing, here in USA it means I am way to the right of you…
Baracky is a lot pusillanimous I mean. He mostly just picks on America cause he knows it won’t fight back out of respect for his coloration and all. (He’s half Kenyan on his father’s side.) My favorite is how he sits there grinning while his media ally people laugh and point at old people for being all stupid and old and non-changey and shit. For real, that’s not what brave people do. No. More and more it’s pretty clear that this Baracky is nothing to be scared about. I think they’ve definitely taken note of this overseas as well.
The chuztpah of claiming fealty to the dead Iraqis pre-2003 while favoring a policy then and now which resulted in the death of a hundred thousand plus! I doff my cap to you, sirs and madams, hypocrisy on that grand scale has not been seen since Nam’s “we had to destroy the village to save it.
I know I’m sick of debating with people who think like this. Freedom should be FREE, whine whine whine.
Oh yeah it is all the lefties fault Rob. That slice of 30% of the country that votes Democrat. Nice one.
Sashal:
Oh, God. There he goes with his BOLSHEVIST!!!! crap.
Waiting for “nuanced”….got a shiny dime in my palm!
Sashal —
For someone who claims to be so proud to be an American, you sure do trot out the moral authority of your previous citizenship quite often.
Like, you know, every fucking comment.
Russian people eat ungodly amounts of mayonnaise. And also they really have a unique approach to fish.
Comment by Jeff G. on 7/7 @ 12:01 pm #
Sashal –
For someone who claims to be so proud to be an American, you sure do trot out the moral authority of your previous citizenship quite often.
Like, you know, every fucking comment.
It adds to the authenticity of his convictions.
Please prove to me where I am wrong on my rationalization of the American publics history of sending troops to war and then being anti-war within a year or two.
Well that’s easy.
Bush was re-elected in 2004.
“This really isn’t about any “sideâ€Â. Please prove to me where I am wrong on my rationalization of the American publics history of sending troops to war and then being anti-war within a year or two.
– PH. This is the kernal misrepresentation at the core of the Lefts anti-war rhetoric.
– Tak a poll of any populace anywhere ever in the history of the world, as long as they weren’t an agressing totalitarianism, and the people will always vote against war.
– Your “side” has taken a natural normal repulsion to having to fight and die, and used it as if everyone feels that way specifically about Iraq.
– Its a bullshit dodge. You know it and everyone that has followed the progress of the war knows it. Its psychological warfare your side wages at every opportubity.
– Of course the general populace is against war. They’re neither psychologically or training wise prepared to fight. So what.
– Thats what the military is for, and decisions about war, the need for it or not, are not popularity contests. That would be an imbecilic way to run a country, and you wouldn’t last a year. Your enemies. particularly in the ME, where its strong horse/weak horse, would eat you overnight. You can’t negotiate one sided witj murdering thugs that recognize no laws of humanity. They’ll listen to your yammering and then kill you.
– The screed is bullshit, and the idea of conducting your business in such a way is a death wish, and a suicide pact to try to try for appeasement. There is no such thing as appeasement. Its never worked and it never will.
– This is why no one takes you serious. You simply are not serious people, you’re just trying to demonize the Right enough to talk your way into power.
Yep. The Left’s been running a series of Big Lies since shortly after 9/11. Eventually, the uncommitted middle either buys in or just goes along in hopes of shutting the lie up.
Comment by happyfeet on 7/7 @ 12:03 pm #
Russian people eat ungodly amounts of mayonnaise. And also they really have a unique approach to fish.
I’m waiting for the mayonnaise flavored vodka!
…my rationalization of the American publics history of sending troops to war and then being anti-war within a year or two…. Wouldn’t Harry Reid or John Murtha…
T-Ball — Thanks for setting that up to illustrate the inconsistency between claims the American public is against the Iraq war and the Democrats’ refusal to withhold funding and bring the troops home.
You’re a great American, T-Ball.
only in regards to preemptive wars, Jeff at #98(hmm, you think it is atavism inherited from the other country?.Nobody else in USA shares that opinion?).
Find the comments I made regarding economy or cultural issues, where you can claim the same?
You will not find them…
Minor correction.
PH:
Longtime pw’ers know I have addressed those very questions at some length. Gallup reported in January 2007 that only 41% trust the media’s coverage of Iraq, 35% find it too negative, with only 20% thinking it was too positive. Since then, by any reasonable assessment, things are better in Iraq than they were in January 2007, with little change in the media coverage (but for there being less of it). I could have gone with the TIPP/IBD poll from March 2007 in which 57% thought the coverage was too negative and 56% thought it favored a liberal p.o.v. Or the August 2007 poll in which more people trusted the US military to give an accurate picture of the war than the MSM. Take your pick.
[…] Jeff Goldstein’s demolition of the rampant foolishness of lefty blogger All-Star Jesse Taylor ss an appropriate punctuation to this post. He goes much farther than I would have thought necessary on the matter of the ginormous pile of uranium we helped the Iraqis sell to Canada, but these days, I don’t imagine we can assume calm reason or even stereotypical progressive pragmatism will be widely employed when it comes to anything related to Iraq. […]
only in regards to preemptive wars
Which is not an accurate descriptor of the current Iraq war.
Well seeing as Nancy Pelosi was propping up FARC, is it anyone wonder the liberals loved Saddam and his gas bombs?
RW —
If you find it, pass it along to me, please. Would love to give that sucker a once over.
and, Jeff, what’s up with that claim, anyway:-
“Share my views on the preemtive wars or you don’t like my country.”
My neighbors and people who work for me and with me , naturally born Americans do not share that view.
Now, are you second or third generation, Jeff ?
Oh, sure, there are plenty of Copperheads and poltroons who share your sentiments. Lots (OK, most) of them would have been thrilled to see the Soviet Union still in existence today.
Most of them considered you property of the Soviet state, and considered your leaving it to be a crime.
Hell, look at Jimmy Carter. He’s like the poster child for your mindset, and he’s openly admitted he’d rather talk to dictators than elected governments.
Sorry, sashal, but this is the way I hear you: “Rightwingers hopeless blah blah blah lies blah blah blah BOLSHY blah blah blah.” You brought that on yourself, I think.
Oh, and this —
— has nothing to do with what I noted about your style of argument, which is to introduce your “authenticity” as one of the oppressed to act as evidence of your supposed rectitude.
I was criticizing your style of argument, not your position — which I’ve criticized enough already.
I bet you don’t know anyone who voted for Nixon, either.
Which has what, exactly, to do with the price of cheese in Madison?
– On the other side of the aisle, I don’t think the Left is hopeless, I think they’re very much intentional. Especially when I see them take a natural human aversion and try to turn it into an excuse to lose in Iraq.
“If they were really behind our success wouldn’t people be clamoring to see signs of our victory on TV?”
You have got to be fucking kidding, right?
The reactionary gatekeepers of the MSM daren’t breathe a word of victory, else they’d never be invited to the right sort of party again.
And yes, I’m convinced that they are that venal.
“Rightwingers hopeless blah blah blah lies blah blah blah BOLSHY blah blah blah.â€Â
The only word in today’s discussion I used was “hopeless”
I do not think I ever used the word “right wingers” at all, not in derogatory connotation for sure, I do use the word “bushtard” once in a while , which I use to describe many members of the GOP- faithful to their leader, not the ideology…
Bolshy-Bolshevik? Rob Crawford already overtook my leadership in that word’s use unfortunately..
““Please prove to me where I am wrong on my rationalization of the American publics history of sending troops to war and then being anti-war within a year or two.â€Â
BRRRRRTTTT!!!!
Wrong, appeasementbreath.
“By the summer of 1944 the Japanese high command concluded that, while they could not win the war outright, they could force America into a negotiated peace. They were confident the American public would not tolerate a long war with growing casualties in the Pacific. So they ordered attrition warfare: fighting that would slow the Americans down and inflict maximum casualties.”
-James Bradley
“Flags of Our Fathersâ€Â
And we just kept on killing Japs.
Making fun of your mis-use of it. BOLSHEVIK!!!!
Sashal, you’ve become what you (claim to) despise. It would be humorous if it weren’t so tragic.
Sashal:
So the various Kurdish uprisings between ’86 and ’89, the ’91 uprisings that we specifically encouraged and then ignored, any of the myriad uprisings and revolts that Hussein put down from his achieving power in 1979–none of those matter becasue he was strong enough to put them down? Because the opposition wasn’t strong enough to last long? What?
You’re awfully selective. Now tell me it’s not intentional.
Sashal, you don’t seem to grasp the first thing about my ideology — and if you think me some GOP cheerleader, you are even more delusional than I’d thought.
To be as kind to Sashal as I can, I often think he has trouble with his English comprehension.
Don’t believe him, Sashal. Jeff *is* a GOP cheerleader, but only because he likes the sweaters … and and sticking his hand up Ann Coulter’s skirt during the lifts.
Je
Jeff’s tricky that way.
Jeff G.s new motto:
Hold ’em by the nose, kick ’em in the ass.
– Trust me, he also has trouble with his Russki translation.
I am glad I missed this little whiney-boy pissing match. I really enjoy the hell out of Jesse Taylor’s blog entries. I like Perfesser Goldstein’s occaisional posts as well. But nothing is more tiring than this kind of “I don’t like that you disagreed with me so I will call you a big stupid dummy head! Stupid poopy poophead!” nonsense.
Yawns then ignores the whole thing.
RTO, actually, after the first Persian war, when our troops were there and our leaders encouraged the uprising, I think we should have helped right there and then….
Lisa, would you please move? You’re standing in front of the screen. Thank you.
#123.
Actually I never said that, Jeff.
And I know you are not the GOP cheerleader, I was reading this blog for some time.
sashal:
“Share my views on the preemtive wars or you don’t like my country.â€Â
The only person here who’s uttering that is YOU – and it’s absolutely typical of the left, who, finding themselves unable to cope with real opposition, beat on strawmen instead.
Bolshevik.
And Lisa: “Ignoring – ur doin it rong!”
sashal is locked into his shining ideal of no pre-emptive invasions to free people. So tied is he to this shining ideal that he’ll denigrate any positive about Iraq in fear of his ideal being irrellevent for future conflicts.
whatever, sashal. I know that the world will be a better place with a democratically elected Iraq, pro west and largely secular in nature. Other middle east countries might just pay attention and the lure of Wahabbism and other forms of medieval jihadism will have less and less spiritual gloss.
Success in Iraq has never meant a open season on all forms of oppression and genocide. Only those where we have national interests big enough to warrant the exercise. Let’s save that for the next, potential opportunity and celebrate the real accomplishments of both Iraq and Afghanistan.
You can still keep your shining ideal, after all.
– Is that like a shining “Ideal on the hill”.
– Lisa I hear what you’re saying, it does get tedious, but some of the ploys of the so called “elite” Left are just so feckless its hard to let them go unanswered.
– Besides, G_d in her infinite wisdom, gave us SecProggs for our amusement, and its not nice to let G_ds gifts go to waste. – :)
Lisa: Is it scary to suddenly find yourself the voice of reason?
– Well a Pakistani man living in Clayton county GA has strangled his daughter with a bungee cord for dishonoring her husband, a Muslim honor killing.
– So now we’ll get to see in American judges will follow in the footsteps of the British courts, and start recognizing Sharia’ law over US jurisprudence.
– Things are getting off to a roaring start, with reports by the local DA, that the charges will have to be read to the man through an interpreter, since he doesn’t understand what he is being charged with as yet.
– Lisa, have you been fitted for your burka yet?
– And just what would such a shift do to the SugarTitsâ„¢ market?
And just what would such a shift do to the SugarTitsâ„¢ market?
Something like this, maybe (possibly marginally NSFW, depending on where you work).
I bet while that bungee cord was strangling the life out of her she probably was thinking that this whole being a Pakistani Muslim thing really was kind of teh suck. For real, when your own dad starts strangling you for Allah and stuff, there were probably some red flags you missed along the way.
Wait, if blog argument has taught me anything, it’s that I should mention I was born and raised in Canada, does that make me right of left, or left of right? Am I now wielding a +3 Credibility Sword (looks like a flamberge) in this duel (enhancements only roll when confronting the Big L’s and the French)?
Have I earned my international chops?!
I spent the last month getting my new interpretive dance, “ I’m coming to get you Mama! – The Aaron Broussard Storyâ€Â, ready for a tour of New Orleans because I thought that would be the hot topic.
It’s gonna take me weeks to put together something on this damn yellowcake.
Shoulda been a fucking mime.
Jeremy,
You only get chops if you know which dinner fork is for the escargots, and which is for the curly endive.
Oh. Jeremy. That’s complicated cause if Mr. Josh Marshall had his way Canada would never have been a foreign country. Which would have been a lot awesomer to hear him tell it.
“RTO, actually, after the first Persian war, when our troops were there and our leaders encouraged the uprising, I think we should have helped right there and then….”
So far exactly one thing we can agree on.
But we didn’t. So, according to how your world works, that was our one and only chance.
I guess after he successfully killed those rebels, everyone else was happy with Hussein’s leadership and so we should just leave them alone on that account?
“….Reported that the first day at the Del Mar fair had something for everyone, including post card San Diego weather, and a hard rock band called Steam Powered Giraffe, whose 6 members are all mimes using imaginary instruments.
– Several people who attended the groups performances said they found the music and lyrics repetitious, but they were good dancers.”
Um Lisa – per Jesse: I [Jesse] know that remembering all the way back to five years ago is like super hard and stuff, but let’s remember why we went through Plamegate in the first place.
Which is to say that Master Taylor isn’t so much a poopy-head as a blogger who has that most marvelous of blogging abilities, self-nullification.
=
Can you use the same fork for endive and arugula, or is that a faux pas?
Dear boy, arugula is simply passé. Endive is to die for.
And just what would such a shift do to the SugarTitsâ„¢ market?
Something like this, maybe
Or this.
– I think the Emily Post on that is the faux pas fork is for Pate foie gras only.
“Shoulda been a fucking mime.”
Oh, shut up.
No, I distinctly remember, Jeff said the faux pas fork was for Jesse’s yellowcake.
Lisa —
Jesse’s post was what we literary types like to call an occasional. It gave me the jumping off point for introducing additional information to amplify my earlier argument, which some people (it seems to me) were purposely misconstruing. The thrashing of young Mr Taylor was simply the pristine cherry on the undefiled sundae.
Truth is, I value Jesse Taylor’s opinion roughly as much as I value a Margaret Cho bikini wax.
If you don’t want to read this kind of thing, don’t. But you’ll be missing out, because with me, there’s usually a reason I bother to respond. In this case, those reasons were made quite clear in the post — and I note that you aren’t particularly interested in addressing the substance, but are rather quick to avoid the substance under the guise of being above petty namecalling, etc.
That, too, is a rhetorical ploy.
Sorry. You can’t slip a fastball by me low and in, especially if I’m hitting left handed.
– Ok, from the “hey we gotta get out of this corner before the truck hits” book of obstruction politics, Senator Ben Nelsen(D) is calling for a summit on oil drilling off shore and anywhere else in the US where we have reserves. Said he:
– “I don’t know what the problem is, all we have to do is start accessing or own resources and then look for alternatives and we’ll be out of the woods, but we can’t drill our way out.”
– When asked why the other members of the Dem Congress has been voting down bills for exactly that for over 15 years he said; “Well I can’t speak for them, and they don’t speak for me, but we can;t drill our way out of this problem, but we have to start drilling everywhere, and now.”
– When asked about another group of Dem Senators, who are trying to put together a “stop the drilling now” coalition Nelsen said; “I don’t think that is any good. I don’t see what they’re trying to achieve. We need to drill.”
– 71% of Floridians now want off shore drilling off Florida.
– The Senator was not aware that Brazil is using offshore drilling to buoy its oil markets. These are the un-informed people, even though he seems to be buckling under public pressure, that are making our energy decisions.
– Can you say “reading the narrative blindly” kids.
Namecalling would be like if I called Baracky a snotty socialist gaywad neophyte bimbo. But it would only be petty if I didn’t tie it to specific policies.
the first Persian war
Wait, what? We had troops in Iraq in 490 BC?
Here’s a link from ABC news, in 2000.
http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid275898292/bctid494852750
cut and paste. But you guys are right, WMD was the only reason for the invasion of Iraq.
Some people were paying attention, and some people were playing politics, which were you?
– New pro-Hillery web site “to get her for us.com”
set up by Lady Rothchilde. Yet another leak in the Obama boat.
“As I said, I love my country more than my party, and boy did that get me in troulble with moveon.org and other Left blogsites, but I don’t care.”
– She also said that as many Hillery supporters as McCain supporters contributed money to McCains election ncampaign.
– She also said that “Dean and the party had early on decided to make the decision for the voters and they pressured Hillery to get out. They didn’t want to wait for the popular vote, which means that the delegates, a tiny group out of the total number of voters decided for all of the rest of us, and thats what Dean and the DNC wanted, and we think thats totally wrong in a Democracy”.
– Interesting about the contributers, the rest we already knew.
Don’t forget when you lie about Obama to include your favorite, happy. You know, how he’s all like anti-Israel and all and will personally knock the Western Wall down to install a Yasser Arafat tomb and gift shop.
Or, is keeping all the smears straight getting too much for you to remember. Maybe, you were just on deadline…
Whatever the reason, just glad I could lend the helping hand.
– Damn Gus, I just don’t understand why the evil NeoCons keep smearing the Messiah, I mean he quit that BLT apartheid church and its anti-white bigoted pastor didn’t he, and hell he’s turned around on almost everything they wanted including Constitutional gun ownership, NSA “eavesdropping” and Telecom immunity, and now hes going to stay in Iraq just like McCain. What the hell does the Right want anyway.
Remind me not to invite Gus to any parties. He’s very unfunny.
– I think he might be funny with a little de-programming, but hes white so he’ll never get the jump shot down.
I don’t think Barack O will knock down that wall personally, Gus. But should it get knocked down, you know, accidentally — well, that’s just chickens coming home to roost, and perhaps we can look at this as a sign that it’s time for some change.
O!
Plus he’d get all pissy when he found out there was no organic arugula, and that people were smoking TOBACCO out on the deck.
Even my snotty socialist gaywad neophyte bimbo friends have the decency to be funny.
Gus? Where did you go? That’s just great. You guys scared him away already. We’ve got to rope ’em in for a bit if we’re going to have any fun.
Gus, I thought your comment was SPOT ON! Such biting humor. And, is that a new shirt? You don’t, by chance, shave your nether regions? Because it’s SO not gay.
– Oh. And now that Obama has proposed a “stimulous package”, its the greatest thing since sliced bread, but of course if Bush or McCain does it, such as Bush’s tax rebate, its just a gimmick.
– The din of contradictory statements from the Left is becoming a clattering yammer of a cognitive dissonance roar.
Oh, it’s no use. Gus is gone.
GOOD JOB PW regs. Guess I’ll go find something productive to do.
– So many Proggs to burn at the stake, so little time.
Honestly, if these ninnies are going to come into Jeff’s place and drop a whoopsie on his best Afghan, they could have the good grace to do a chorus of H.M.S. Pinafore at the very least. It’s the earnest ones I can’t stand.
Anyone else remember the big deal about the missing explosives from the Iraqi depot? That report surfaced just before the 2004 elections, and all of that (IIRC) was under seal!
Don’t hear much about that these days.
“Truth is, I value Jesse Taylor’s opinion roughly as much as I value a Margaret Cho bikini wax.”
GAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! MY EYES! And I can’t find my mother-of-pearl caviar spoon to scoop them out with!!!!!
(pant, pant)…y’know, I’d actually respect Obama more if he’d said, “Hey, Rev. Wright is a friend and inspiration! I’ll not abjure him! That church is a home for my family! I’ll never leave them! My staffers are loyal if imprudent, and I will retain and train them! These leftist friends of mine are my friends, and I will not betray our friendship! And I liked Scarlett Johannson in “Lost in Translation” and you could only wish she was emailing you!”
Thanks, y’all. And also, Gus person, I don’t understand how really a lot staking his political career on support for Mr. Saddam Hussein, a person who was actually paying the families of suicide bombers as an inducement for terrorist people to kill little Jewish kids makes Baracky some sort of friend to the Jewish people. Real friends don’t rally around people who are trying to blow up your kids. In fact, it’s generally considered a red flag.
Jeff, I don’t think he values your opinion much either.
I am not avoiding the substance of your post. Well maybe I am. I am avoiding chasing yet another conservative around the mulberry bush about Saddam, yellowcake, WMD’s and mushroom clouds over Manahttan. That is so 2004.
I really hate it when I come late to a truly awesome JeffG smackdown.
Get used to this. I am already arguing the whole “Saddam/WMD/Al Queda didn’t exist in Iraq/We created them ect.. argument over at my Houston Chron blog.
http://blogs.chron.com/texassparkle/2008/07/one_of_the_most_spectacular_vi.html
Once it looks like we may have actually won this war in Iraq, then all they have is why we should never have gone there. They will never ever be grateful for the victory because they were so much in charge of the defeat.
http://blogs.chron.com/texassparkle/2008/07/post_9.html
– A very very old Goldstein line:
“….Two Jews walk into a mushroom cloud….”
– Looks like the Plames were trying to have their yellowcake and eat it too.
Yeah, how dare we keep bringing up the fact the Democrats based their (revised) positions on lies?
Pop goes the weasel!
I am avoiding chasing yet another conservative around the mulberry bush about Saddam, yellowcake, WMD’s and mushroom clouds over Manahttan. That is so 2004.
Why stop there? The list of other things you’re entirely misinformed about would likely keep you good and sedentary for *years*.
–
Lisa
What chase? JeffG brings up messy facts and Jesse is “oh well, you guys are idiots, yesterday today and tomorrow” as if that is an actual argument.
It’s like Kerry what’sherface, a Senior Editor (ha!)at Reason (ha!ha!) discounting the legitimacy of anyone over…oh 45 y/o… to even show face in public because..like, you know, like… they’re OLD!
That is NOT an argument. Neither is the “oh Saddam is dead, you can stop talking about him” when what talking you want to stop is historical revisionism.
sheesh… garbled grammar. Should be:
Neither is the “oh Saddam is dead, you can stop talking about him†when what talking you want to stop is opposition to historical revisionism.
“And you can’t get laid in grad school quoting “Prufrock†these days…”
I’ve seen Jesse’s picture. “Prufrock” wouldn’t have worked for him back when it would have worked. Plus, replace “grad school” with “homeless shelter.”
Shorter Jesse: The fact that he already had Unranium – and thus that he was not trying to acquire it -is proof that we had him ‘in a box.’
It’s only a box if you aren’t ruling the inside of it. From the inside, it’s a kingdom, and you are its ultimate ruler, free to do as you please to whomever you please.
Nice box we supported.
Kinda reminds me of Margaret Cho’s bikini wax again.
Update:
No-alanche!
And now he’s in a different, more secure box as are his psychopathic children. It works for me.
Saddam, yellowcake, WMD’s and mushroom clouds over Manahttan. That is so 2004.
I think that is precisely the point, Lisa.
It’s only a box if you aren’t ruling the inside of it. From the inside, it’s a kingdom, and you are its ultimate ruler, free to do as you please to whomever you please.
And the Iraqi government could never, ever, have been able to forge the seals to that stuff anyway! No government could ever acquire the materials or talent to forge those seals and whisk away the bulk of that ore when they wanted to!
That’s crazy-talk!
BTW – I trust a dictator as far as I can throw a Buick Roadmaster. Not the latter day wimpy ones – a real 1957 Buick.
They were official seals, Mikey.
Jeff, I know you hate me, cause I do not like the Iraq war.
I also post at slate , want to check me arguing with communists?
http://fray.slate.com/discuss/forums/8/1474198/ShowThread.aspx#1474198
I am much closer to you, then you think
Lamontyoubigdummy: Greatest. Handle. EVER.
We love you sashal.
Don’t tell me — you call them BOLSHEVIKS!!!
ha, Rob, you got it…
hf, I love you too. If only i could have just half your ability with language,,,..
Sashal, why do you bother arguing? I am not helping anyone polish up their excuses for supporting the Iraq war. If you supported the invasion, good for you. End of conversation.
Thank you. I’ve only ever attempted the one language. That helps a lot I think.
Lisa, the thing is I never supported the iraq war, and i am not the socialist, lefty or “liberal” in contemporary American parlance, that brings the confusion around these parts….
First, I don’t hate you, sashal. And second, I don’t believe I’ve ever called you a lefty. But if you go back through my archives, you’ll find that I’ve compared current leftist foreign policy realism to the foreign policy realism of earlier Republican administrations. Similarly, I’ve noted the almost perverse overlap between paleoconservatives and leftists on a number of issues.
You put yourself wherever you’d like on the political spectrum. There a certainly more than a few libertarians who didn’t support the war; other libertarians are upset that the war was not prosecuted with more brutality. Too, most paleoconservatives — being isolationists and America firsters — didn’t support the war. So there’s plenty of spots for you to occupy.
What I disagree with you about are your arguments against the war. That’s it. Well, that, and the frequency with which you trot them out. They didn’t convince me the first time, and they haven’t convinced me since.
US Ex-Hostage Calls FARC Rebels ‘Terrorists’*
Stupid piece of shit American transparently denying the Other his heritage is what that is.
Fortunately the AFP is on the case.
I don’t think anyone would mistake you for a leftist, Sashal, lol – not by a frigging long shot.
I am not helping anyone polish up their excuses for supporting the Iraq war.
Oh my, Lisa, how white of you.
No, sashal is not a leftist. He is an isolationist. And the history of the 20th Century is an indictment against American isolationism. By that record, American interventionism is a good thing, not an evil. And history’s cold record is the only record worth discussing.
It is amusing, though, to see how the second world war turned many leftists from staunch supporters of American intervention (during that war) to staunch isolationists as soon as Berlin fell.
Amusing? I misspoke – educational is the word I wanted.
The fact that you get paid to write for a living makes you one of the best conman around. ‘Cause I’m pretty sure that first line is pure gibberish: “I don’t understand how really a lot…”
Dear Lord. Let me run that through my Jed Babbin babel fish program to see if it is in pure unadulterated smear:
No, apparently the folks over there can’t get it either. They, being good Human Events folks, were able to confirm that opposing the invasion of Iraq in 2003 (as an all powerful freakin’ state Senator, no less) means he actually endorsed the checks Saddam sent to the suicide bombers. Babbin himself took a break from war-gaming the nuking of Tehran to point out that Barry flew over to Jerusalem every night to piss on the bodies of dead Israelis (including twice on Sabbath!).
Seriously, happy, if that bullshit is all you got, then you’re less of a non-sequitor than I thought you were and more of a absolute braying ass.
Good lord, is that the crap you and Holy Joe are peddling amongst our Jewish friends? If that’s it, then I say rack up those Florida electoral votes for Obama, baby, because happy and Joe can’t deliver for ol’ Johnny Mac.
I don’t write for a living. That’s the first thing. The second thing is it’s complicated cause Baracky can fund anti-semitism through donations to that hateful church he went to, but he doesn’t feel comfortable just coming out and being antisemitic all by himself alone.
That’s why Baracky emphasizes that he likes Jews plentymously when they know their place and work for black people and they do things he can contextualize within the black experience.
But for real. Read all of it if you want. What’s so weird is Baracky did a whole interview about U.S. policy towards Israel without once using the word ally. I think that’s very telling.
So Gus, do you think our Jewish friends in Florida and elsewhere are unhappy with the removal of a dictator who was sending cash payments to families of suicide bombers who were killing Israeli civilians? I doubt it, but we’ll find out in November.
Yep, still no fun at a party. “Gloomy” Gus. That’s him.
Timmah!
Gus, still with the Morrissey schtick? A face like a weel skelpt arse is no way to go through life. Just ask Howard Dean.
You just don’t do irony, do you? And if a straw poll was to be taken around here, I’ve got a 20 that says happyfeet’s stylistic bravura outsells your turgid prose 100 to 1.
What’s so weird is Baracky did a whole interview about U.S. policy towards Israel without once using the word ally. I think that’s very telling.
Conspiracy theorist.
(just trying to help Gus out some, he seems lonely)
Gus obviously has too much going on in his life to be a proper troll. Two comments is all he can muster?
Why bother?
Yeah trolling takes committment. He clearly doesn’t have what it takes.
Yeah. This ain’t the motherfucking Flintstones, Gus.
Jeff, I don’t think he values your opinion much either.
Then why did he venture over here to start a mini-blog debate? Other than, you know, that he’s one of the folks who can’t foment an original thought, so the necessity of reading those with whom he disagrees and then sits at his computer and types what he’d never say to their face is too overwhelming to dismiss. In short, people who click memeorandum to read other blogs and then comment about the other blogs.
Sorry, the “he’s not worth my time” thing doesn’t work after they spent time analyzing his writing. Granted, that’s something Taylor often says, but, hey, he’s not all that bright.
Yes this guy has no clue how much effort goes into proper trolling.
This bud’s a lot for you, Mr. ProggHero.
Jed Babbin is a fucking genius. Gus is not.
Lisa and sashal: It’s not that complicated.
I understand that if you both were opposed to invading Iraq that this sort of information is not going to change your minds. That having been said I must also reject the idea that anything positive that happens in the meantime is irrelevent because of the ill advised/illegality of the original invasion.
The ship has sailed, the dogs have pissed on the fire, the fat lady is sweating her way through a high C and the horses have left the barn. We are there now. If there is (finally) mutiple indicators of success in establishing the Iraqi nation then that should be acknowledged and we can meet at a Holiday Inn Express sometime down the road and rent one of those cute, little conference room with the multimedia center and engage in a duel of powerpoint presentations as to the worthiness of the enterprise.
In the meantime, the argument that the invasion was wholly wrong and, thus, the only right and true thing we should do is get the hell out, regardless of conditions, is fantastical at best and dishonorable at worse. Right now it’s more important to do it right than it is to win value arguments. Denying any positives from the enterprise smells of naked partisanship.
That having been said, I value you both for your participation although Lisa is held in higher regard due to, you know, the, um, sugartits. Sorry, sashal.
Great post BJTexas. I agree that it is a bit late and profoundly naive to be calling for us to get out of Iraq. We have invaded them and we don’t get to say “oops!” and leave.
That is not why I roll my eyes and ignore the excited shrieks of “look, we done found them thar WMD’s!!!” every time a rusty shell casing is found in Iraq. I feel like those expostulations are self-indulgent. Like the war supporters – though their arguments in support of invaision won the day – are still unhappy or nervous about the whole matter and are still trying to convince themselves of the rightness of the war.
Once upon a time, when we could have made a different choice, I made a lot of noise and did a lot of handwringing and arguing about invading Iraq. But fuck it, we are there. And everyone who got us there says they would do it EXACTLY the same if they had it to do all over again. So what is to debate? Obviously, since more than half of the people in my family are either active or retired from the military and a huge chunk of them are either in Iraq or have been in Iraq, I am not going to advocate doing or saying anything that will make their jobs – or any of the other good people of our armed forces jobs – even harder.
But I decided that I am going to refuse to indulge anyone in a ridiculous argument about whether or not the war is justified. I don’t think it was, and all this jumping around and capering about Saddam’s alleged secret stores of yellowcake that were shipped out to Syria, Canada, or Narnia is a non-starter. As you said, this is a conversation that we (or our children or grandchildren) can have (probably with much more clarity) in the future.
Thanks for the kind words, BJ. You know how much I love and respect this joint. It is one of the best spots on the internets. Sadly, like Gus I have not had nearly enough time to devote to my progg-troll duties.
Sigh.
Lisa, I just want to ask, In 2002, did you support going into Afghanistan?
If not, I think your position on Iraq is much more tenable than otherwise.
If you do think invading Afghanistan was the correct action, then you need to consider the fact that doing one without the other would have been an act of futility, doomed to failure, and no more effective than Clintons strategy of shooting a camel in the ass with a cruise missile, only with the drawback of (truly) wasting the lives of our soldiers.
The Piro interviews with Saddam turned up other revelations about one of the most notorious war crimes of his regime: the use of chemical weapons on Kurdish civilians in 1988. Iraq gassed its own people in something called the Anfal campaign to counter Iranian incursions and Kurdish resistance to his rule.
Piro says Saddam told him he himself gave the orders to use chemical weapons against the Kurds in the North. When shown the graphic pictures of the aftermath, Piro says Saddam reacted by saying, “Necessary.”
In fact, Piro says Saddam intended to produce weapons of mass destruction again, some day. “The folks that he needed to reconstitute his program are still there,” Piro says.
“And that was his intention?” Pelley asks.
“Yes,” Piro says.
“What weapons of mass destruction did he intend to pursue again once he had the opportunity?” Pelley asks.
“He wanted to pursue all of WMD. So he wanted to reconstitute his entire WMD program,” says Piro.
“Chemical, biological, even nuclear,” Pelley asks.
“Yes,” Piro says.
—–
“No remorse? No concern for the kinds of things that he had ordered and done?” Pelley asks.
“No. No remorse,” Piro says. “No regret.”
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/01/24/60minutes/main3749494_page6.shtml#ccmm