The Politico reports:
Gen. Wesley Clark, acting as a surrogate for Barack Obama’s campaign, invoked John McCain’s military service against him in one of the more personal attacks on the Republican presidential nominee this election cycle.
***
“He has been a voice on the Senate Armed Services Committee. And he has traveled all over the world. But he hasn’t held executive responsibility. That large squadron in the Navy that he commanded  that wasn’t a wartime squadron,†Clark said.
“I don’t think getting in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to become president.â€Â
In checking the reax around the blogosphere, I was a little surprised that of all I read, only Spook86 noted that Obama has no serious executive experience either — at least not any he wants to talk about.ÂÂ
For his part, Clark has the distinction of uniting Antiwar.com and Blackfive.net in observing that Clark nearly started WWIII as NATO commander in Kosovo, after which he was swifty put out to pasture. Yet Clark found himself eminently qualified to be president, even if few voters did. In 2004, Clark lavishly praised John F. Kerry for moral courage forged in Vietnam. This is not the Wes Clark I knew.
Or maybe it is the Was Clark I knew. He endorsed Hillary Clinton, so maybe this embarrassing performance was just a bit of sabotage to boost Clinton’s prospects for 2012.
Wesley Clark continues to polish his bona fides as the saddest, most inept and clueless General since McClellen.
That having been said, I hope he keeps it up. He has no internal filter that would allow him to realize that: a) A bunch of moderates and conservatives will take umbrage at his dissing of McCain’s military experience; b) Someone will eventually get around to comparing McCain’s “executive” experience to Obama’s (complete lack of).
Keep it up. General Wesley McClellen.
Thoratlas swings by to bleat about Karl’s !BIAS! and !RACISM! in 3 … 2 … 1 …
Just a cheesey swiftboater I guess… but he has great hair I think. He looks so pretty on CNN.
– Clark is a total insufferable prig, and a failure at everything hes ever done. He’s the Jhimmi Cahtah of the military, and a fucking disgrace to the uniform. I heard a rumor that Hillery actually asked him point blank not to make any public statements on her behalf.
– When even Bob Beckle tells you just to SDASTFU you know you’ve hit bottom. He was actually red faced yesterday having to respond to Clark’s comments. As he said, the one thing that you don’t do if you’re sane is attack McCain’s service record. He was visibly pissed.
Didn’t Wesley Clark get fired as NATO commander in Bosnia? Oh yeah, he couldn’t get along with an ally! Keep talking Wes! BTW, great judgement!
Is there even one principle in his body?
Let us recall that Wesley McClellen was a talking head before and during both Gulf wars (CBS, I think.) He did nothing but bleat and whine about all of the issues and problems and casualties and sounded like like a nervous middle school kid before his first prom.
The plain fact that he was completely dead wrong as to how both of those wars played out hasn’t penetrated with several news organizations and some Democrats. He is the lefties’ pet general, after all.
Quit hatin’ you haters. Baracky has way more military experience than McCain and you know it. His pastor of twenty years was a U.S. marine who rose all the way to the rank of private first class before being honorably discharged. Look, people. The country is at war. We need an experienced leader, and that’s all Wesley is trying to point out here.
What comes around goes around. After the swift boat smears you guys should expect this.
So, the Swift Boat vets, who served in Kerry’s unit, and also have never been disproved to this day = “McCain’s only experience is getting shot down”?
HAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Sorry, I needed that this morning.
Wait, I thought that military service was an absolute requirement for the POTUS? That’s what the Dems kept trying to tell me in 2004.
Exactly, ProggHero. Baracky a lot supports the troops! It’s about time somebody knocked those loser POWs down a peg.
Also, to borrow shamelessly from James Taranto:
It is now > 1300 days since Kerry promised the late Tim Russert to release his military records……
He left the Navy because he was a failure in that he could never reach the achievements of his father and grandfather. He was a good time, party guy screw up. Much like the current occupant of the White House.
Face it, Proggie, Barack is barely qualified to be a Chicago city alderman, much less Leader of the Free World.
proggieparody: Dang, you are right! I suggest you use that and General McClellen’s narrative on McCain and build the entire campaign around that viewpoint. Make it the centerpiece of the message to voters nationwide.
Pretty Please? With a cherry on top?
It was a smear to tell the truth about a candidate’s record when Kerry was running, and now, it is the greater truth to smear McCain for his record.
I’m nearly hurt, that I wasn’t one of the reviewed reactions! But, to quote myself last night:
“I’d say it’s a better qualification than spending a few years as a “community organizer†whose main job was extorting state and local governments for taxpayer money, a few nearly anonymous years in the Illinois State Senate as the flavor of the month favorite of the corrupt Chicago Democratic political machine, and a cup of coffee or two in the big leagues of Congress.”
“After the swift boat smears”
– ProgHorn. I make a solemn promise that just as soon as Lurch stops flushing those form DDS-180’s down the shiter, sits down and fills one out, and files it with the Navy Department with no “corrections for unnecessary information”, I’ll be the first to buy him a new magic hat and issue an apology for disclosing those two grenade launcher wounds to his ass.
– sKerry’s bullshit fairy tales to cover his dishonorable discharge have been so thoroughly debunked at this point that continuing to try to defend him just makes you look “teh stoopid”.
– If Lurch had truly been “smeared” in any way, he would have taken O’Neill up on his offer of 100 grand to go into court years ago. He cannot for the simple reason that he would have to do disclosure for court, and the entire pack of lies would come out. Apparently everyone in America knows that except you and Kerry’s dog.
– You really need to drop this little Easter bunny lie. Your fellow travelers already have.
Good point. Mr. ProggHero. And Baracky a lot surpassed his drunk father to become a Community Organizer, honing his military skills along the way, and gaining the experience we can trust as we abandon Iraq just like his daddy abandoned him!
*It was a smear to tell the truth about a candidate’s record when Kerry was running, and now, it is the greater truth to smear McCain for his record.*
Except that taking a bullet (sorta) for your country is much more significant (and patriotic) then the time McCain spent in a prison camp, watching out for his men.
Racists.
Matt, Esq – Wouldn’t it be nice if the collectivsts would publish a scorecard so we could keep track of which actions are going to be afforded positive and negative points? Their standards for what is good and acceptable seems to vary depending on their candidate.
“We don’t want the small, timid, slash and burn, negative campaigning of the past.” (Josh Hafenbrack, “Obama Barack Obama Calls For New Political Spirit During South Florida Campaign Swing,” [Fort Lauderdale, FL] Sun Sentinel, 3/26/07).
Does this make Wes Clark large and/or brave ?
16: Jimmie,
For whatever reason, your reax didn’t pop on Memeorandum when I was writing this.
So, does getting shot down in a fighter jet and being held a POW qualify one to be POTUS?
People, people, leave proggieparody and the rest of the Obamatons alone. I can’t think of a better gift for the upcoming campaign season than to have the slack eyed minions of the Hope Shaft™ howling through all of the various media outlets diminishing McCain’s military record.
Pennys from heaven, people! Of course, the bus will sustain a broken axle from the shear number of supporters thrown under the wheels.
Also, I hope PH and the rest try a payback for 2004 on this. It’ll blow up in their faces. the SBVT stuff got Kerry more because he came back and accused his felow soldiers of being war criminals, threw ribbons, etc. Going after McCain on this is teh stoopid, but give ’em rope.
Indeed it does not, Palooza. The shame of a POW is not so easily expunged.
Palooza,
Withstanding years of torture by the enemy and refusing early release to deny the enemy a propaganda victory does say something about his strength and leadership qualities, which is something people look for in a POTUS. Not people like you, but check the exit poll data and you’ll find many do.
No, Palooza, that, in and of itself, does not qualify one to be President. But you knew that already.
But pissing on POWs is definitely a qualification to be Secretary of Defense in a Baracky Administration. Wesley is as savvy as he is pretty I think.
Withstanding years of torture by the enemy and refusing early release to deny the enemy a propaganda victory does say something about his strength and leadership qualities,
You are a racist for suggesting that McCain’s experience is more valuable than the community organizers lack of experience.
See? Paloser seeks to join the winning strategy! Proclaim it loud and wide, paloser! The American voter will flock to your banners! I’d suggest a big banner with a picture of McCain as a POW with a headline of “TRAITOR!” or “UNFIT” right under it. You’ll sweep the electorate!
Just keep looking over your shoulder for the bus.
Plus ol’ Wes can really pull off the sweater look more than others could. Which is really a skill.
It is spelled palooka, dude.
Ask Jeremiah Denton, or Orson Swindle, or James Stockdale, Pete Petersen, I guess they left their respective armed forces because they were quitters, F!@#@#$ asshats, If you are severely injured and tortured s badly, that you can’t fly again and that’s your MOS; you don’t get promoted. Of course, this
is the same democrats who used Sidney Blumenthal a one time co-editor with KGB man Phillip Agee, to surface stories
disputing George Bush sr’s war record, dismissed Bob Dole war record as too
irrelevant to current events; this was before the Greatest Generation and Saving Private Ryan, made WW2 vets hip again; but around the time of the English Patient’s release. This group also scrounged up someone named Ellis, who disputed Bob Dole’s heroism in N. Italy, and called his Lt. bars, a
‘bedpan promotion’ So they are classy as ever.
Karl, really no need to go on to personal attacks. I asked a simple question, and can understand your point of view. Nonetheless, I think others may have opinions that vary (and in fact others on in this very comment thread have agreed that being shot down and being a POW is not in itself a qualification for being POTUS). However, many folks are calling this a “smear” or a “swiftboat” (ah, the irony/hypocrisy… another topic though stay focused). I think that those accusations are baseless and shameless (these are often the same people that have no problem pretending Obama is a secret muslim inflitrator).
Now, more to Clarke’s point. He and Schieffer were talking about executive experience, and Clark made the point that being shot down/POWed (and he made this point after praising McCain’s military record) does not equate to “executive experience.” I think that is a very fair point to make. For example, if McCain were a 4 star general then he would have a much better claim to executive experience. Instead McCain is trying to use his experience as a pretty much typical (if not lackluster compared to his father and grandfather) soldier as a proxy/replacement and/or equating that experience to the 4-star general type experience. Clark questioned that premise in a very respectable way.
BJ Tex, I am sorry but that is a barely comprehensible rant. Ask yourself, does that post add anything of value to the political debate? Do you feel better doing it? I hope so, because otherwise posts like that are essentially worthless. You would be better served spending your time doing something else.
Executive experience is definitely on the table. But in fairness, Baracky’s cocaine and marajuana binges aren’t really a lot executive experience either, Palooza. Plus Baracky get points off for fruit management skills as well. Also, he kinda sucks at the logistics of lapel pin/suit jacket proximity management. We’ll just have to put this one to the voters I think.
Oh. *gets* … I’m running late I think, if you’re going by the clock.
I’m surprised you’re surprised. This is simply one more ratchet in the same strategy — one that makes perfect sense in terms of the Left’s historic vileness, growing audacity and power (and media protection), its natural contempt for the military, and its aim of neutralizing one of McCain’s clear advantage. The strategy appears stupid, but in fact is a calculated risk with certain drawbacks but a net payoff. The Left knows it can say these things with, as you note, general impunity from the mainstream media. The outrage from the Right blogosphere means nothing to them, and very little in their larger objectives. The Left knows the McCain campaign will respond with a finely written retort no one will read and will never be broadcast. The Left knows Bush will say nothing. The Left knows that a drumbeat of lies can achieve legitimacy by sheer mind-numbing repetition, and if only a small percentage of voters is influenced enough to think that McCain’s experiences are either no real advantage or in fact render him less fit than the cool savior, they win. The Right continues to operate under passe illusions of comity and expectations of a critical mass of national indignation, still unaware that the media and the savage new Left, loosed upon our landscape by the criminal nonfeasance of George Bush, have destroyed both. The only cure for a Barack Obama presidency is the inevitable failure of a Barack Obama presidency. The Left will get what they want, and this will be their end, at least until the next generation of fools who forget history.
Instead McCain is trying to use his experience as a pretty much typical (if not lackluster compared to his father and grandfather) soldier…
Commander of a squadron of fighter jets is a typical soldier. Who knew?
It’s George Bush’s fault? I knew it!
Palooza
You give yourself away, with lines like –
I think that those accusations are baseless and shameless (these are often the same people that have no problem pretending Obama is a secret muslim inflitrator).
The point you seem to be missing is that McCain’s Vietnam war / POW experience speaks very well to his character, which is why you, and folks like Clark, will try to shift the claim. Not very honest of you, but then simply pointing out that Obama has experience with actual terrorists (whom he admires) probably won’t resonate with the electorate in quite the way you might hope. So I guess lying is what you are going to go with.
Instead McCain is trying to use his experience as a pretty much typical (if not lackluster compared to his father and grandfather) soldier as a proxy/replacement and/or equating that experience to the 4-star general type experience.
McCain was in the Navy, so that would be lackluster squid.
happyfeet, the strength of your arguments is severely weakened (and this goes for all the posters here) when you engage in childish name calling like “Baracky,” not to mention “stretch the truth” about the candidates (e.g. describing Baraks limited use of drungs as a “binge” — did you describe GWB’s drug and alcohol use in the same manner?). Frankly, your post reads like something you picked out of some lunatic chain email floating around the Internet. American deserves better than the level of discourse you engage in. I put you in the same category as BJ Tex — either engage in intelligent debate or find a hobby.
happyfeet: “. But in fairness, Baracky’s cocaine and marajuana binges aren’t really a lot executive experience either, Palooza.”
I’m not sure — was the cocaine powder or rock? Was the pot mere ditchweed or the finest hydroponically grown hybrid strains known to man? I mean, crack and ditchweed are sooooooooo low-rent, but if it Baracky were to have sprung for the good shit, that mighta been “executive.”
They forget history immediately after it has happened. It won’t take a generation for the reset button to be hit, they’ll do it as often as necessary to regain power.
Palooza, my point is that debating executive experience from a wartime set of circumstances is a political minefield. Wesley is an idiot for allowing himself to be manuevered into responding in that way. Plus, and here’s the important part so pay attention, making a qualification about commanding a “fighter squadron” but not during “wartime” is a snarky and unserious way to make a point about “executive” experience, an unnecassary addition that instantly debases the comment to a borderline smear. Finally, making these sorts of “qualification” statements when your candidate doesn’t have the “executive” experience of the average 7-11 store manager opens an avenue of discussion that doesn’t bode well for Obama, which is why the candidate himself goes out of his way to praise McCains’s service and stays far away from comparing their “executive experience.” Obama does this because, while he is no genius, he is by leagues smarter than the woeful Wesley McClellen.
My “rant” merely highlighted the baldfaced foolishness of any Obama supporter jumping on this bandwagon with any sense that this discussion will help his/her candidate. To me, that is a punched ticket to feel the torrid embrace of the bus undercarraige, IMHO.
You, of course, are free to continue to attempt an apologist explaination for General McClellen, while the rest of us are free to laugh our asses off at the idiocy.
They forget history immediately after it has happened.
Alternately they just claim the historical record is a righwing lie and then carry on as if what they wish was true, actually was. Saves time that way.
American deserves better than the level of discourse you engage in.
Not all of us. Happyfeet is usually way more than I deserve.
Oh, and Palooza? Nobody appointed you debate manners maven so if we find you ridiculous you’ll get swiped. Deal with it.
Education Guy, have you ACTUALLY SEEN the video between Schieffer and Clark — they were talking about executive EXPERIENCE, not character. So its you that is shifting the claim. Have you seen the video, yes or no?
Education guy, what are you talking about in terms of Obama admiring terrorists? This again seems like quite a shift of topic?
Noted B Moe. Was that squadron a war time squadron? I hear your point though. The question is does that experience translate into readiness to be POTUS?
BJTex, its not about “debate manners” its about the utter worthlessness of posts like yours. You don’t add anything to the debate — I question (and I hope that you question) why you even take the time to post stuff like that.
Let’s assume for a minute that McCaine’s POW experience is not the same as executive experience and that is what Wesley Clark meant.
Now comes Proghero and Palooza to claim that McCaine’s military experience was simply “lackluster” or “average”. How does being a fighter pilot, being a squadren commander and being a POW for 1/2 a decade qualify as “lackluster” or “average”? Indeed, just 4 years ago the two of you were claiming that Kerry’s 3 months in Vietnam made him the most qualified man to be president in the history of the U.S. So, your new claims are pretty dishonest.
Now, let’s assume for one minute that even your new claims of “average” and “lackluster” are correct. McCain was in the military, served honorably, and has been a major U.S. political leader for decades. Now, Obama has no experience even remotely as strong. How exactly do you claim that Obama is the more experienced candidate and keep a straight face?
I understand that you are going to vote for Obama b/c the reality is that nobody really cares that much about experience. After all, I would never vote for Ted Kennedy to even be a dog-catcher and yet he has tons of experience. And, I’m pretty confident that liberals won’t vote for McCain even though he clearly has much, much more experience than Obama. And, I would not expect them to – in reality we (those of us that are truly involved in politics, not the mushy middle) are voting for a philosophy and policy prefences more than we are for experience.
However, I do hope that the left keeps focusing its attacks on McCain’s military record, b/c I cannot imagine a strategy that will backfire more strongly than this one. And, I also hope they keep attacking McCain’s “experience”. All these attacks do is remind the mushy middle who don’t follow politics that Obama has no experience and no military experience, while McCain has a plethora of the same.
I can’t believe Obama’s campaign is allowing these kinds of attacks to happen.
Palooza
Start small, where is Wes Clark getting his claim that McCain is using his POW status as proof of executive experience?
The question is does that experience translate into readiness to be POTUS?
No, the question is does that experience deserve to be on the resume with all his other qualifications?
And what executive experience does Obama have on his resume for comparison?
I question John McCains patriotism.
Yes, it does, wartime or not. Define for me one, specific thing that Obama has done in his career which would have provided him the same level of reponsibility and management application.
Take your time.
And, BTW, you haven’t been around the left side of the bloggosphere if you think this group of commentators is snarky and unserious. I double dare you yo go to Kos or Huff or DU or Firedoglake and attempt to chastise them for the tone of their comments. You’ll be cursed in the most descriptive ways and then wiped from the commets.
“#
Comment by JD on 6/30 @ 8:12 am #
It was a smear to tell the truth about a candidate’s record when Kerry was running, and now, it is the greater truth to smear McCain for his record.”
Because it’s part of Teh Narrative â„¢, it’s ok to lie.
Palooza is a liberal asshat along the lines of timmah and IJS. Its visits here are memorable only insofar as it claims some sort of moral and rhetorical superiority, and then proceeds to toss out liberal talking points, and calling people names. It deserves about as much respect as it gives – none.
Noted B Moe. Was that squadron a war time squadron? I hear your point though. The question is does that experience translate into readiness to be POTUS?
So commanding a squadron is not experience unless there was a war? But a community organizer? Straight line to the White House. You are profoundly unserious, despite your claims to the contrary.
Great Banana — I care about judgment, and Obama has exhibited good judgment to me, especially on the Iraq war. I think he will bring the right team together and engage the world again; using both the United States’ military might and its diplomatic strengths. He will shift the focus from Iraq to Afghanistan and going after Osama and the Taliban. He will improve our standing in the world and bring our allies in Europe and elsewhere to the table in ways that Bush (and McCain, whose policies on foreign issues are simply a continuation of Bush’s). Obama does not argue military experience for obvious reasons, and you are allowed to question whether his experience is enough. We too are allowed to argue that McCain’s judgment is flawed and his military experience (when you actually look at it) does not translate into executive experience. Its not swiftboating, its called SCRUTINIZING.
P.S. Schieffer, the media and the McCain campaign at least impliedly (who adore McCain — I believe that he once called the media “his base”) suggested that his piloting/POWing provided him with the requisite experience.
Education guy — WATCH THE VIDEO.
ProggHero the Copperhead is a good mathc for Wesley “Little Mac” Clark.
“He left the Navy because he was a failure in that he could never reach the achievements of his father and grandfather.”
If by that you mean that those achievenments were literally over he is head and he cannot physically reach them you’d be right.
He was promoted to Lieutenant Commander in less than 8 years, which is exceptional, and despite carreer limiting physical disabilities still retired at Captain, a Flag rank.
So, what have you done?
“I question John McCains patriotism.
– Did your NVA Hanoi Jane doll, the one sitting on the anti-aircraft gun mount screaming “death to the American pigs”, whisper that in your ear asshole?
BJTex, you engaged in the same exact behavior you deplore at KOS. So you really havent’ a leg to stand on. You can see how hypocritical that is, right?
and Obama has exhibited good judgment to me,
Rezco. Wright. Dorhn. Ayers.
P.S. Schieffer, the media and the McCain campaign at least impliedly (who adore McCain  I believe that he once called the media “his baseâ€Â) suggested that his piloting/POWing provided him with the requisite experience.
Even I can admit that they love O!!! more. If you can’t see that one your willfully blinding yourself. It would take a willing suspension of disbelief to not see that most media members might as well be wearing Obama for Pres. shirts while doing newscasts.
Palooza,
Re: #35, it wasn’t a personal attack; it was an empirical observation. The exit poll data shows that voters who value certain qualities tend to vote for the Republican candidate, while those who value other qualities tend to vote for the Democratic candidate.
For that matter, I have previously written here during the primaries about the degree to which McCain’s support was based on those qualities, as opposed to his stands on issues.
Palooza – see, but “we’re” funny. We’re snarky, but usually rather serious about it.
And, you’ll rarely -if ever- see a regular type in All Caps. THAT’S the difference.
Oh JD, i didnt call anybody a name. Why the victim complex? I have not tossed any liberal talking points out — I watched the video and made a judgment. There was nothing swiftboaty about Clarks comments. No lies, no smears. Simply challenging the premise that McCain’s military experience automatically translates to executive experience sufficient for being POTUS.
Raise of hands, how many of you have actually watched the video? Be honest.
BBH – don’t pick on Proggy. He’s a figment of his own imagination.
Member Since: Jun. 16, 2008
Party: Democrat
Last Visited: Jun. 30, 2008 – 10:58 AM EST
#292Jun. 30, 2008 – 9:30 AM EST
Wow these so called Republicans can attack Kerry and even talk down Clark’s military record. Yet they go screaming and yelling that its unethical and immoral to even think about finding out McCain’s war records because he was POW. How pathetic can you get. I was a Republican at one point. I find they are nothing but a bunch of hypocrites. They attack people with slander and lies. Yet when that happens to them they get bent all out of shape. Clark has every rights to call out McCain. He is right to say that being a POW is not a prerequisite for being a president. Heck McCain graduated on the bottom on his class. While Obama graduated in Harvard and was selected as president to the prestigious Law Review. He also graducated magma cum laude. Secondly, Obama gave up various prestigious and lucrative jobs to become an organizer, who helped fight poverty, helped the poor and the unemployed. He did all this for $13,000. I don’t know but I would take Obama because his dedication for helping the people trumps over a military brat who got it easy because his father and grandfather were admirals.
Karl, i think when you get into saying “Not people like you,” it becomes personal. Suggestion, your argument would be stronger if you could refrain from the temptation to make it personal. I asked a simple question, you answered in a way that questioned my character. I will forget it if you promise to be more cognizant of that knee-jerk desire to personalize.
Comment by Carin- on 6/30 @ 9:29 am #
BBH – don’t pick on Proggy. He’s a figment of his own imagination
Actually the majority of my comments today have been cut and pasted off the Politico website.
“Indeed, just 4 years ago the two of you were claiming that Kerry’s 3 months in Vietnam made him the most qualified man to be president in the history of the U.S. So, your new claims are pretty dishonest.”
Naw, it ain’t ‘pretty dishonest’.
Call it what it is, reactionary leftists lying through their teeth, part of the “progressive” playbook.
Obama has exhibited good judgment to me, especially on the Iraq war.
Do you mean the five years he was sure we were losing and couldn’t wait to surrender, or the couple months now he isn’t so sure anymore?
“#Comment by ProggHero on 6/30 @ 9:13 am #
I question John McCains patriotism.”
I question your sanity, FascistZero.
. After the swift boat smears
What smears? As far as I know, Beldar’s bet has gone unclaimed.
think he will bring the right team together and engage the world again; using both the United States’ military might and its diplomatic strengths. He will shift the focus from Iraq to Afghanistan and going after Osama and the Taliban.
That’s right, he did say he’d go into Pakistan to get UBL. That does seem quite diplomatic, and would gain the US much respect throughout the world, and probably a Nobel Peace Prize.
“Simply challenging the premise that McCain’s military experience automatically translates to executive experience sufficient for being POTUS.”
– But of course conversely, asking how a S. Chicago party bagman, without the experience of even your average WalMart jewelery counter salesgirl is unfair.
– Lets face it, you Proggs are worried about your candidates total zero executive experience on his resume, so you think you have to try the old “big lie” meme’s to get on top of things. You’ll lose.
I watched the video, and then I read the transcript. I see also that you have now moved to the “well it’s implied” portion of your program, and will take that as a sign that you are not interested in making arguments based on facts, but would rather just let us know that you think “Obama is super cool”.
So thanks for letting me know that. You could have saved time and just told everyone that from the start.
I have not tossed any liberal talking points out.
There was nothing swiftboaty about Clarks comments. No lies, no smears.
LOL! you just can’t make this stuff up, Proggs are so stupid.
From BJ, “if we find”…watch it, Palooza the hive mind is starting to buzz. This is Protein Wisdom and they make the rules of “civilized debate.” Together, apparently.
BJ, your point about the left-side of the blogsphere is “they do it and we want to be like them.”? I thought you were better than the evil lefties, BJ….
Plus, could you show me proof (like a cut and pasted post) of you attempting to engage some lefties in a discussion. Heck, show me one where you just called them names. My guess is that you rarely visit, let alone comment at lefty site unless you are taking part in a blog war (being led by Karl, Dan Collins, or Darleen).
Before you go off, look at what I’m trying to say. First, you excuse you own conduct by saying “everybody else does it”. Well, I’m a bit skeptical at that excuse and I’d like proof (from you) of the fact everyone else has done it to you.
As for the rest of this discussion, please carry on defaming a four star general. They shoulda drummed Clark out of the Point when he stood at parade rest during ceremonial silences.
Well, palooza, still waiting for an answer to my question in #57, but I did say you should take your time.
As far as your comment in #65 I’ve already explained what I wrote and have rejected your characterization so no further comment is necessary on that debate.
BTW: Do you have a written set of Palooza’a Blog Debate Rules because, after all, you get to set them, right?
Proggy and the Obamatones.
We too are allowed to argue that McCain’s judgment is flawed and his military experience (when you actually look at it) does not translate into executive experience. Its not swiftboating, its called SCRUTINIZING.
I never said you weren’t allowed to – I simply pointed out that it is pretty ridiculous to claim that Obama has more relevent experience than McCain. I pointed out, and you seem to be agreeing with me, that experience is not something you will vote on. I agree that I would not vote on “exprience” either, if the exprience were the kind of failed thinking such as Ted Kennedy, Hillary Clinton, etc.
But, you are the one challenging McCain’s experience. It seems to me that if you are challenging your opponent’s experience, your candidate should have some experience to offer. Even the most partisan lib can’t claim that Obama has any exprience that can compete with McCain’s. Thus, I don’t understand the discussion.
As to Scrutinizing, I have no problem with that – in fact I hope the left keeps doing it, as I think it will hurt Obama immensly to do so. It only reminds people of McCain’s heroism and great character, and the fact that Obama has no experience and has no proven character. I don’t even like McCain that much as I think he is pretty much a lib – but I find it amusing that this is the tact Obama’s people (you includeded) are taking.
Moreover, Scrutinizing is what the right did to Kerry’s 3 month’s in Vietnam. How that was somehow terrible or awful (considering that Kerry still refuses to release his records – hide much?) is beyond me.
I also think it is incredibly dishones of libs like you, who argued 4 years ago that 3 months in Vietnam was the sole qaulification for being president, now find that McCain’s much, much, much more distinguished military record (in both war and peace) is somehow not up to snuff. I’m not even sure how you rationalize that to yourself.
oh yeah, that’s exactly why. please ignore that he nearly caused a conflict with our allies (as mentioned in the post) and that he had no problem having a friendly photo-op with a mass murderer.
McCain is saying that his qualified to be president because he was a war hero and was a POW in vietnam. However, he graduated in the bottom of his class and got preferential treatment because he was the son of the admiral. There is not question who is more qualified to serve as president. That would be Obama.
Palooza – I seek not your approval, nor do I need it, or want it. Nor does anyone around here, should I be so presumptive as to speak for them.
Obama has exhibited good judgment to me
Except for all of those people piling up under the back of his bus.
Its not swiftboating
No, it is not, because swiftboating is smearing someone by telling the truth about them.
FWIW, you lecturing Karl on how to compose a post, or construct an argument is laughable.
“#Comment by Learned Hand on 6/30 @ 9:38 am #
As for the rest of this discussion, please carry on defaming a four star general.”
Remember, Benedict Arnold was a war hero, too.
no, he isn’t.
For those questioning whether McCain uses his military experience as a proxy for being qualified for POTUS, please engage in a 5 second google search:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/2007-11-03-2645872063_x.htm
His web site is littered with images and stories of his military experience as well.
Simply challenging the premise that McCain’s military experience automatically translates to executive experience sufficient for being POTUS.
The premise is not coming from the McCain camp as far as I can tell, so if this is the sort of “thinking” we can expect from camp Obama then I’d say we are all in for a real treat.
It seems to me that the smarter way to go after McCain would be to say “yeah, his military service was honorable, but his policy ideas are wrong b/c x, y, and z”.
I don’t think that the left challenging McCain’s military service is going to win any votes from the mushy middle and may do just the opposite. And, frankly, claiming that his service was somehow not honorable or that he was a failure is really pretty sad – the guy became a Captain in the Navy, the equivalent of a Colonel in the Army. They don’t tend to just hand those ranks out.
McCain is saying that his qualified to be president because he was a war hero and was a POW in vietnam.
He is not.
Tell you what, I’ll take the military guy over the low pockets, small bore, inexperienced Chicago machine politician any time.
oh Heavens! is that all that’s on his web site?
But Banana, how will it backfire? What will be the nature of the backfire? At what or whom will the backfire be directed? The strategy is not for Obama himself to say these things, or for a concerted campaign to form on his behalf. The plan is for the occasional Wesley Clark, Jay Rockefeller, Tom Harkin to pipe up with a qualified and oblique slander — civil enough to pass muster in the national media, intelligent-sounding enough to sink in somewhere in the national consciousness. If Obama ever feels the heat he can make a statesmanike denunciation. And the goal is not to contrast McCain’s experience with Obama’s lack of exprience (obviously), but 1. to vitiate the importance of military experience at all, 2. to suggest McCain is making more of his own experience than he really is, indeed leveraging it into power, 3. to suggest that this is an inadequate and dated credential (McCain is an old guy out of touch with our times, remember), and 4. to suggest McCain is a little unstable from the whole experience. A delightful goulash of leftist calumny.
Step back for a moment and you and see here everything you need to know about the Left. For example, the arch and moralizing John Kerry was a “hero” for fighting in Vietnam though he fudged his heroics, but he is truly admired for tossing aside his medals (which he didn’t really toss aside, because he’s a vainglorious hypocrite and wanted to continue to exploit his war-hero image) and for leading an antiwar movement aimed at defaming other soldiers. On the other hand, the more free-spirited John McCain (when I was a kid, “liberals” liked free-spiritedness) is despised for his authentic heroism in stoically suffering torture at the hands of the enemy. It would be hard to find somebody who served more honorably than John McCain. And that is why he is hated and must be discredited. The seeming incoherence of the left’s shifting positions on just who is right regarding Vietnam (Clinton was forgiven for draft-dodging, and Bush was smeared for only serving in the National Guard) is not incoherent at all. It is just the Left being the Left — love that which will get you power, hate that which stands in your way.
I suppose that Palooza was contemptuous of Kerry’s “Reporting For Duty”.
BTW, did you know that Sen. Kerry served in VietNam, and was a highly decorated war hero?
McCain is saying that his qualified to be president because he was a war hero and was a POW in vietnam. However, he graduated in the bottom of his class and got preferential treatment because he was the son of the admiral.
Obama may very well have only gotten into harvard b/c he is black and may very well have only gotten on the Harvard Law Review b/c he is black. Interesting that you believe one is “good” while the other is “bad”.
There is not question who is more qualified to serve as president. That would be Obama.
Since we are discussing experience here, not ideas, what experience does Obama have that leads you to claim that?
I get it now. Folks like Palooza just don’t want McCain to be able to mention his military service at all. It’s standard leftist tactic regarding “fairness” of bringing up anything that speaks to a Republican’s character in a way that the Democrat cannot compete.
It was fine for Kerry, but not for McCain. When it was Billy Jeff it was clear that military service mattered not at all, which since Obama has none, is where we find ourselves again.
GB – Community Organizing is hard damn work.
Edu Guy – Racist.
For those questioning whether McCain uses his military experience as a proxy for being qualified for POTUS…
What should those of us questioning your understanding of the word proxy do?
– Ok. With this latest bit of cognitive dissonance and verbal gymnastics, it must be official then. The Left is worried about their candidates blank resume on both experience and his zero military background.
– If memory serves me correctly, by their own argumants and standards (or complete lack thereof) it is now officially correct to lable them:
…wait for it…..
CHICKENHAWKS !!!111eleventyone111!!!
Rachel Lucas had a great idea.
She’s going to be making No, You Can’t t-shirts.
A leftist’s sense of history is only a day deep, and what side to support is pure dependant on feelings. When Kerry was nominated and snapped off that jaunty salute, the “progressives” screamed their approval, not because they suddenly loved the military, but because they knew Kerry’s anti-war record. He was the perfect mole.
Barry has nothing in the executive experience department. NOTHING. He has never run a business, nor been a mayor or governor.
Fuck it… I supervise a department, make schedules, do work evaluations, etc…. I have more executive experience than Barry!
McCain doesn’t have a lot of executive experience either, but he has more relevant LIFE experience in leadership, crisis, and legislative. His experience in the military is unique and demonstrates how he handled himself in an extreme situation. Has Barry had even one major hardship in his life? Anything to show how he would handle a crisis?
As many issues I have with McCain, I trust the man to have my back or be my leader when the shit hits the fan. I have seen nothing about Barry that inspires that kind of confidence.
Indeed, the cult of personality surrounding Barry, from Che!-like fashions being sported in hip clothing stores to the weird “We love U” videos on YouTube, it makes me very uneasy about who is really controlling the Cipher from Chicago.
Great Banana, I think judgment overrules experience(see e.g. Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld). For me, in ya know, modern times (not 40 years ago) Obama has and continues to show better judgment than Bush and McCain. Going after the actual terrorists that attacked us makes sense to me. Not wasting more lives and treasure in a stupid war that should have never been initiated makes sense to me. He wants to at least try to build a middle coalition to tackle these issues — McCain continues to play from the same GOP handbook that Bush and Rove have played (and look at the results 7 years later)
Of course I am allowed to scrutinize McCain’s military experience, my point is to demonstrate (which I have done well IMHO) that pretending like Clark’s comments were “swiftboat smears” or “low” is extremely dishonest and hypocritical.
P.S. You and I both know that the accusations against Kerry turned out to all be lies (too late to prove that and make a difference for Kerry though), and if Clark had lied about McCain’s record, I would be against that as well. Your fellow rightwingers are all crying Swiftboat!, so I think that even they would concede that the word has become synomous with smearing/lying (as that is what they are accusing Clark of).
For those questioning whether McCain uses his military experience as a proxy for being qualified for POTUS…
Proof, please? Having reference to his military service on his website does not count.
rrpjr,
It will backfire b/c every time they do it, McCain’s people get to talk about his military service in his defense. So, instead of being like John Kerry and running exclusively on his military service (quick, what Senate achievement did Kerry tout when running for pres), McCain let’s his military service act as a backdrop and insight into his character, but gets to bring it up and contrast it to O! every time an O! partisan attack’s McCain’s military service.
Thus, McCain gets to use his military service and experience without having to look like he is using it, all b/c O!’s people are too stupid to see that every time they raise these issues, the mushy middle is reminded that O! has never taken a courageous stand on anything, never served in the military and has no real experience at anything (no real job, no real national political experience, no leadership experience, no executive experience).
I think much of the mushy middle was turned off by Kerry’s running exclusively on his 3 months in Vietnam, which made the attacks on his service record possible. I think if McCain ran exclusively on his time as a POW, the mushy middle would be turned off. I think the mushy middle will not be turned off when McCain’s people discuss his POW experience in response to attacks by O’s people.
So, I think this is playing right into McCain’s hands.
“Comment by Palooza on 6/30 @ 9:56 am #
Great Banana, I think judgment overrules experience(see e.g. Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld). For me, in ya know, modern times (not 40 years ago) Obama has and continues to show better judgment than Bush and McCain.”
Then you are truly, deeply, a fool.
Education guy, what are you talking about in terms of Obama admiring terrorists?
There is the small matter of Obama’s close personal relationship with Ayers and Dohrn who rather than being ashamed of their violent past, wish they had committed more terrorist acts.
Going after the actual terrorists that attacked us makes sense to me.
By invading Pakistan?
The Russians were are allies in Kosovo. Imagine their surprise at Romania and Bulgaria refusing overflies of their territory after NATO requested it? NATO didn’t even want allies flying into Kosovo. Wow.
By the way the US Senate disagreed with your assessment, RTO Trainer, but it’s good to see throw your lot behind the Brits. Is RTO the handle for Hugh Shelton?
Personally, Clark offends when he shakes hands with mass murderers. Can you, by the way, RTO, show me your outrage at Rummy shaking hands with Saddam? I mean, I try not to equate the two, since Saddam was Hitler and all, but I’m betting a quick search of the archives will generate not one criticism of Rumsfeld.
I assume that’s because he plays for the right team in your view?
P.S. You and I both know that the accusations against Kerry turned out to all be lies (too late to prove that and make a difference for Kerry though)
You mean he didn’t throw somebody’s else’s medal’s over that fence?
“consideration.” I miss preview.
You and I both know that the accusations against Kerry turned out to all be lies (too late to prove that and make a difference for Kerry though)
Proof? Don’t know about you, but I would really like that million dollars.
P.S. You and I both know that the accusations against Kerry turned out to all be lies.
I’ve never seen even one of the claims made by the Swiftboat Veterans debunked. As has been said above Swiftboating to me means telling the truth about a lying scumbag.
Comment by ProggHero on 6/30 @ 9:42 am #
“McCain is saying that his [he’s?] qualified to be president because he was a war hero and was a POW in vietnam [Vietnam?]. However, he graduated in [at?]the bottom of his class and got preferential treatment because he was the son of the [an?] admiral. There is not [no?] question who is more qualified to serve as president. That would be Obama.”
I have a nephew entering the U.S. Naval Academy for “Plebe Summer” in two days. I’ll take ANY U.S. Naval Academy graduate sight unseen over 99% of college graduates any day of the week and twice on Sunday. The military service academies are not community colleges, and they’re not life at the Delta House of “Animal House.”
Some things we’ve never been told are Obama’s undergrad grades and his Harvard law grades. I’ve always wondered whether he was merely an affirmative action student. I realize that he was editor of Harvard Law Review, but how did he accomplish that? Grades, writing on, what? There’s no question he’s an engaging personality (if you like that kind of thing), but let’s have hear some information about his Ivy League education other than attendance and graduation. By the way, on this score, why the transfer from Occidental to Columbia. I suppose I ask because Obama has shown an extraordinarily poor grasp of history when speaking about the facts of the 1960s civil rights movement, the liberation of death camps in World War II, the Nuremburg trials, and the JFK administration.
Education guy (#103), there you go again poisoning the debate with falsities. Nobody said that McCain should not be able to mention his military experience — what a stupid thing to claim I said. However, if he does mention it, it can be scrutinized. Does anybody disagree with this?
I would be against any lies/smears around it, however(see Swiftboats and Kerry). For instance, I think the fact that McCAin signed a confession for propaganda purposes is not a negative fact in light of his circumstances (I don’t think Karl would be so kind if Kerry had done the same thing, be honest or I will have to go to the archives ;)
Now, you must admit that you were fully on board with the attacks on Kerry before I can have a serious argument with you. That mea culpa would help with your credibility on this issue.
P.S. You and I both know that the accusations against Kerry turned out to all be lies (too late to prove that and make a difference for Kerry though), and if Clark had lied about McCain’s record, I would be against that as well. Your fellow rightwingers are all crying Swiftboat!, so I think that even they would concede that the word has become synomous with smearing/lying (as that is what they are accusing Clark of).
Now I know you are deluded. Most of the facts asserted against Kerry turned out to be true – have never been discredited, and Kerry never released his military record. Why not? If he has nothing to hide, why not release it and release his “war diary”? Seriously?
As to judgment, I obviously disagree with you on who has better judgment. But, that is exactly my point. We aren’t voting based on the candidate’s “experience” but on their policy’s and philosophy. Only the mushy middle may vote on “experience.” Again, I agree with you on this point, but that is why I find it odd that you are attacking “experience” when your candidate clearly has none. Even if he had good judgment, he clearly has no real experience – all your attacks on McCain’s experience do is highlight that fact.
Of course I am allowed to scrutinize McCain’s military experience, my point is to demonstrate (which I have done well IMHO) that pretending like Clark’s comments were “swiftboat smears†or “low†is extremely dishonest and hypocritical.
I, for one, never made that claim. I merely pointed out that this is a stupid tactic for Obama to be using (i.e., challenging McCain’s “experience” or his military service). Again, all this does is highlight that Obaman has neither. Even if McCain’s military service and leadership experience were only average, it still miles ahead of Obama, who has had neither.
I do find it funny though that you believe that McCain’s military experience is not up to snuff and you believed that Kerry’s 3 months in Vietnam made him the most qualified man to be president. That alone is the height of dishonesty and hypocrasy.
Personally, Clark offends when he shakes hands with mass murderers. Can you, by the way, RTO, show me your outrage at Rummy shaking hands with Saddam?
Timmy, is that you? RTO and I ARE different people.
No Carin — he fought valiantly and was in harms way, earning medals while saving his fellow troops. Are you denying that he was attacked on those issues? Or are you denying that those accusations turned out to be lies?
Carin, were you defending Kerry like you appear to be defending McCain on the issue of his military service? I too will defend McCain if any smears/lies come out. I think he is being kind of a wussie for overreacting to Clark’s legitimate point.
Doesn’t Obama’s service to the slumlords who provided him financial backing count for anything? Doesn’t his service to the UC Hospital through earmarks have any weight at all? (OK, subtract the 20% cut that went to Michelle as a “raise”, still.. that’s service.)
State Senator Obama has a very lengthy record of servicing his constituents through keeping them nicely contained within the substandard housing provided by his benefactors. In fact, he carried the bill which allowed his benefactors to attempt to begin servicing every resident of Illinois through packing the Boards dispensing the pelf so greatly desired by the Chicago Machine.
Bull Obama stands ready to service every American in precisely the manner in which he has serviced the citizenry of Illinois. No one can dispute his demonstrated experience or ability after examining his record (a good portion of which can be found in the trial transcripts of his good friend and close associate, Tony Rezko).
“Comment by Palooza on 6/30 @ 10:03 am #
Education guy (#103), there you go again poisoning the debate with falsities. Nobody said that McCain should not be able to mention his military experience  what a stupid thing to claim I said. However, if he does mention it, it can be scrutinized. Does anybody disagree with this? ”
Yeah, the reactionaries defending Weasely Clark.
Royf, then you are just dishonest and ignorant. Funny, you claim to hold Kerry to account for dishonesty, yet claim dishonestly to be unaware of ANY debunking of any of their claims. Royf, you need to look in the mirror.
I think the fact that McCAin signed a confession for propaganda purposes is not a negative fact in light of his circumstances (I don’t think Karl would be so kind if Kerry had done the same thing
No, we didn’t view it as a negative at all when Kerry accused the entire military of war crimes under the brutal interogation of the US Congress.
“I would be against any lies/smears around it, however(see Swiftboats and Kerry).”
What lies? What smears?
Hell, they don’t even need to wait for it to become history. They immediately misrepresent what was said right here.
Delusional fools.
Funny, you claim to hold Kerry to account for dishonesty, yet claim dishonestly to be unaware of ANY debunking of any of their claims.
Almost as funny as you being unable to actually debunk any of the claims.
Rush call Clark ‘Ashley Wilkes’.
Education guy, I am sorry but you don’t expect people to take you seriously on the Obama terrorism issues. He is on the board of a non-profit with some guy and that makes him a terrorist sympathizer? He goes to a party (along with dozens of others) and that makes him a terrorist sympathizer?
Seriously, look how low the level of your debate is. You simply buy everything you hear and convert it into the likes of a cartoon character. Its simply looks foolish — step out of your mindset for a few minutes a scrutinize yourself. Argue the points, not ridiculous frames.
Lefties, heal thyselves.
“Comment by Palooza on 6/30 @ 10:10 am #
Education guy, I am sorry but you don’t expect people to take you seriously on the Obama terrorism issues. He is on the board of a non-profit with some guy and that makes him a terrorist sympathizer? He goes to a party (along with dozens of others) and that makes him a terrorist sympathizer?”
Yes.
Oh… BTW
The Barry team has tried to trot out Barry as an academic because he was a lecturer at a law school.
Which is pretty nice, but thin since in his 12 years as a lecturer he did no research and published no academic papers as would be required of an actual professor (which he was touted as for quite a while until the Hillary! campaign pointed out the puffery)
Seems as though we’ve hit a nerve here. I’m particularly taken with Palooza moving the goalposts to “judgement” when we have no evidence of any such “judgement” from Obama other than his words. You see, Palooza, what one says is much less important than what one does. It’s not just an accounting metric of years of experience its one’s reactions and judgements during those experiences.
While we have a wide and deep record from which to SCRUTINIZE John McCain (and you’ll find that several of us find him wanting in several areas,) we have almost nothing but Obama’s words and his books, which is a poor substitute for actual judgement under actual experience.
So while I’m content to allow you to state, without any actual “experience” to back it up,that you hold Obama’s “judgement” to be superior to McCain’s (Bush ain’t runnin’ again, after all,) your statement is not based on anything but your gut instinct and personal assessment, an amorphus foundation at best.
But, again, nice job moving the goalposts away from “experience” to “judgement” based upon nothing more than the spoken and written word. We’ll leave discussion of the hallowed “judgement” of Wright, TUCC, domestic terrorists. bitter gun owners, will/won’t negotiate with Iran, invade Pakistan and other such “experiences” for another day.
Learned hand has a decidedly “timmah” ring to him. HE JUST CAN’T QUIT ME!
No Carin  he fought valiantly and was in harms way, earning medals while saving his fellow troops. Are you denying that he was attacked on those issues? Or are you denying that those accusations turned out to be lies?
Erm, yes, that last bit. I’m denying that the accusations turned out to be lies. And, Kerry later pretended to throw his medals over a fence in protest, but it turns out they were someone else’s.
Carin, were you defending Kerry like you appear to be defending McCain on the issue of his military service? I too will defend McCain if any smears/lies come out. I think he is being kind of a wussie for overreacting to Clark’s legitimate point.
No, definitely not. If I recall, the whole Kerry dealo started when Bush was attacked for his military experience. It was a reaction to the “KERRY HAS EXPERIENCE” and Bush is a draft dodger meme.
Darleen, the “Law Professor” meme has entered the mainstream. I have heard it repeated by talking heads everywhere, including on FauxNewz. So there were successful.
The only criticism of McCain’s service that has real merit is Clark making the argument that being a pilot and a POW does not instantly qualify McCain as an expert on military or international affairs.
Of course Obama doesn’t have that experience either. Obama is not running on his military experience or intimate knowledge of what its like to be shot at in combat.
Clark doesn’t discount McCain’s service. He calls into question what it has to do with being President.
Education guy (#103), there you go again poisoning the debate with falsities. Nobody said that McCain should not be able to mention his military experience  what a stupid thing to claim I said. However, if he does mention it, it can be scrutinized. Does anybody disagree with this?
You change the claim to suit your needs, and then you accuse me of poisoning the debate, which is a little rich for my tastes. First you claim that McCain is using his military/POW status to show that he has executive experience, essentially parroting Clarks line. Then, when asked if you can point to McCain actually making the claim, you move on to the well he points to his military experience all the time, so it’s implied argument. Now, in a last ditch effort to protect yourself from your own damn lies, you claim that my pointing these things out to you is “poisoning the debate”, while your pockets are full of the falsehoods and misrepresentations that you keep backing away from. You’ve got balls, I’ll give you that.
As to Kerry, I believe that those who knew him best in the period in question had every right to say how they felt. I’m laughing at your conditions which I must meet in order to have a serious discussion with you because your attempts so far are anything but serious. They are good and partisan though, so congratulations on conflating serious with “that which agrees with my position”.
Seriously, look how low the level of your debate is. You simply buy everything you hear and convert it into the likes of a cartoon character. Its simply looks foolish  step out of your mindset for a few minutes a scrutinize yourself. Argue the points, not ridiculous frames.
I have an idea … why don’t you link to a spot where McCain is running – in any large part – on his military record? Has he “Reported for duty?”
There is no way you can blame Obama for knowing Ayers. They only served on a charity board together and attended a couple parties. To say that he is down with terrorists is casting aspersations on Obama’s character and should not be allowed. I know someone that stole a car, does that make me a car thief? How many of you do not know someone that has commited crimes? Let ye without sin cast the first stone.
You and I both know that the accusations against Kerry turned out to all be lies
You feel that, P. But that doesn’t make it real. Kerry let the statute of limitation pass, even the 3 year one in MA, rather than take the matter to court. He knew he’d lose in a court of law where facts, not fairy tales, have to be served up.
You may think he was really in Cambodia on Christmas Eve in ’68 wearing his magic hat, but those of us in the real world know better.
There is no way you can blame Obama for knowing Ayers. They only served on a charity board together and attended a couple parties
BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
Nice revisionism there, proggy.
Not going to relive the entire thing, but those who say that the SBVs claims where not thoroughly debunked are extremely dishonest:
http://swiftvets.eriposte.com/
Moreover, if you are crying about Clark’s scrutinization of McCain, and completely giving the SBVs a pass, you really need to engage in some self examination.
“….(and look at the results 7 years later)”
From: The SP Workers party Commissar
To: All Secular Progressive comrades
Subject: Iraq
Dear comrades,
– In view of the steadily improving conditiond in Iraq, the country invaded by the running dogs from the American godbothering Right, we must take precautions not to give away our open contempt for the US military, and the imperialistic warmongering American Gestapo leadership.
– For that reason I am announcing today we will shift the Narrativeâ„¢ in such a way to no longer draw attention to that issue, since it is not a good issue for us at this point.
– I need not point out other instances of this sort of thing in the past from Cuba to Cambodia, etc etc, so you will easily understand the need for us to demphasize this area.
– Do not give up hope. Through perseverance and hard work the Peoples party will yet achieve a complete failure and total surrender by the yankie dogs in the ME.
– Say a prayer for our Jihadist brothers struggling against the Capitalist tyranny and Viv Ls Revolution!
– cordially from the collective
K M – High Commizsar
I don’t think Karl would be so kind if Kerry had done the same thing, be honest or I will have to go to the archives
And you complain about people making personal attacks?
Lying in service of the liberal narrative – good in Palooza’s world. Telling the truth about a liberal – swiftboaters! SMEAR!
Obama is not running on his military experience or intimate knowledge of what its like to be shot at in combat.
Do you realize how stone-cold stupid that sounds?
#99 rrpjr
To paraphrase Chief Brody
“Obama’s going to need a bigger bus”
Obama was 8 when Ayers commited his terrorism.
Um, dude? That party was hosted by the terrorist
sympathizerspecifically to introduce Obama to his ward workers.Facts are inconvenient things. To you, they are hot coals.
Darleen are you saying that Obama engaged in terrorist activities with Ayers? What exactly are you saying?
Education guy, I am sorry but you don’t expect people to take you seriously on the Obama terrorism issues. He is on the board of a non-profit with some guy and that makes him a terrorist sympathizer? He goes to a party (along with dozens of others) and that makes him a terrorist sympathizer?
Why of course you don’t. I never expected you would actually think about this issue. The two names I mentioned are unrepentant terrorists, in that they committed actual acts of terrorism against American targets, and have never expressed remorse. Obama considers them friends, and has worked with them closely in his political career. These things are true.
You could show me why you think these things are lies, but I suspect you won’t.
Cheney and Rumsfeld learned that the price on non resolution of the Iraq conflict was 9/11. Keeping the US troops at Khobar/Dhahran and King Sultan AFB, kept Osama’s anger at the
US troops, which ironically kept the Mosques and Madrassas protected from the Baathist foe. He kept up the delusion of being frustrated from using AQ’s Afghan Arabs to free Arabia from Iraq’s Republican Guard. Good luck to that; That’s why James Baker’s jibe about no one asking him anymore, why we
we didn’t go to Iraq in ’91; is very
bitter indeed. Of course, Kerry,& Dodd,
among others were opposed to that
‘exemplary example of global strategy and diplomacy’ that was the 1st Gulf War; in fact the Congress took up a court challenge to the President’s right to deploy troops; something they
haven’t tried in this supposedly more
‘immoral and illegal’ conflict.
Clark doesn’t discount McCain’s service. He calls into question what it has to do with being Presiden
And, I’m calling into question that McCain list’s “POW” as one of his qualifications to be president. What does ANYTHING have to do with being president? Certainly “community organizing” doesn’t have a whole hell of a lot in common with the duties of POTUS. How about we go visit those slums O! worked to improve. How come we never see pictures of all he accomplished in that realm?
Royf, then you are just dishonest and ignorant. Funny, you claim to hold Kerry to account for dishonesty, yet claim dishonestly to be unaware of ANY debunking of any of their claims. Royf, you need to look in the mirror.
Then post the proof and not some half ass media article, show me the original written reports of the incidents the Swifties talked about, Show me Kerry’s original discharge not one dated during the late 70’s when Carter was President and show me the original paper work on his metals so we can see who signed them.
The fact is you can’t because it has never been released by Kerry, he could put this to rest very easily but he never has. But it was still his disgraceful actions of smearing all Vietnam veterans which pisses me off the most, just as it did The Swiftboat Veterans for Truth. I consider the Swifties heros not only for their service in Nam but for bringing the truth out about a true lying scumbag.
P.S.
Even if McCain had led troops, even if he had been the greatest military mind of his generation , that still wouldn’t necessarily make him the best candidate for President. We’re not electing a Supreme General, after all, though with McCain we’ll be getting someone who’s more than willing to try to play that part.
I wonder how hosting a fundraiser to kick off Baracky’s initial foray into politics has morphed into a “party” in Palooza’s world. Their dictionary, it is different than mine.
ProggHero
Ever held a security clearance? Ever had to have a background check?
Your choice of FRIENDS comes into question. Barry never said he was “unaware” of Ayers background, just he doesn’t think its a big deal.
I don’t know about you, but I would tend not to want domestic terrorists sitting at my dinner table with my children.
Royf I posted a link with all of the relevant debunking. Make yourself less ignorant and read through it.
So, apparently you disagree with the suggestion that Obama is a terrorist sympathizer since there is no written proof or documentation of any such thing? Or do you have different standards for lodging such accusations?
There is no way you can blame Obama for knowing Ayers. They only served on a charity board together and attended a couple parties.
Sure.
In 1995, State Senator Alice Palmer introduced her chosen successor, Barack Obama, to a few of the district’s influential liberals at the home of two well known figures on the local left: William Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0208/8630.html
Barely knew one another.
To say that he is down with terrorists is casting aspersations on Obama’s character and should not be allowed.
Rock on.
Obama was 8 when Ayers commited his terrorism.
Yea, you’re right. The 60’s happened way too long ago to matter.
I think having one’s political fundraiser in the living room of a living breathing unrepentant domestic terrorist shows poor judgment. YMMV. But, Lalapalooza is likely still high from Lillith Fair.
“Comment by Palooza on 6/30 @ 10:17 am #
Not going to relive the entire thing, but those who say that the SBVs claims where not thoroughly debunked are extremely dishonest:”
No they weren’t.
N. O’Brain,
I’d rate his association with the domestic terrorist Ayers in the Annenberg Challenge higher than his attendance at the ring kissing ceremony at Ayers apartment. Tom Maguire has the Ayers connection pretty well covered.
#147 Palooza
Oh for Christ’s sake! HERE – stop living in a fantasy world.
“Comment by sashal on 6/30 @ 10:21 am #
P.S.
Even if McCain had led troops, even if he had been the greatest military mind of his generation , that still wouldn’t necessarily make him the best candidate for President. ”
So much for George Washington’s reputation.
Or Dwight Eisenhower’s.
Education guy, once you start pretending that Obama is a terrorist because he knows Ayers (in a thread dedicated to McCain’s military experience) you have lost the argument. You can fantasize about Obama being somebody who HEARTS terrorism all you want, it just makes you look really really stupid though.
As to the overall idea that this or that experience “qualifies” one to be president, I don’t think there is any requirement for any specific qualifications. Different people look to different things to determine if someone is more qualified to be president than their opponent. The sum of different experiences is what people look to.
I doubt anyone in their right mind would claim that simply being a POW “qualifies” anyone to be president. Otherwise, any former POW would do. Nor does military service in and of itself “qualify” someone. Otherwise, any veteran would do. Nor does simply being a
U.S. Senator. Etc., Etc. Instead, we look to all of these factors.
For instance, I routinely had this debate with liberals in 2004. They routeinly said that Kerry should be president based solely on his 3 months in Vietnam. I asked them whether this meant that we should simply find the person who served for the longest period of time in Vietnam and make that person president. They never seemed to understand the point.
But again, taking away for the moment any discussion of “judgment” or policy, if a neutral observer were focused solely on life experiences, I think it would be very difficult for any Obama supporter to claim that such a comparison with McCain would favor Obama.
Now, of course, liberals are going to prefer Obama b/c they agree with his political philosophy. They are going to then rationalize backward to try and argue that Obama has some sort of great “experience” for the job. but, in all truthfulness, conservatives would do the same in the reverse, a la 2000. After all, based solely on experience in that election, Gore would have come out on top to a neutral observer.
Nobody has called Obama a terroist, you moron.
I’m just going to go ahead and put this out there for those who like to think themselves rational thinkers, a man with military experience may very well be more experienced to be the POTUS while the country is at war.
Obama, clearly, would prefer to create another narrative.
Oh Darleen, you clearly are in need of some attention. LOL!
I am going to summarize here, but NOT going through the trouble of filing a defamation suit does not equate to everything said by SBVs is wrong. Years of expensive litigation, especially with the standard being malice rather than just inaccurate is not something anybody would want to go through or pay for. Its about as dumb and non-fact based as you can get in terms of your argument on this issue.
Palooza
Obama merely dismisses the past of Ayers. He downplays it.
Don’t you find it interesting that Ayers, Dohrn, (Angela Davis, et al) can find a home in modern America academia, where they couldn’t pass a simple background test to hold a police officer’s job or a clerical job in the defense sector?
What does that say about academia? What does that say about Barry’s judgment in picking friends?
Amazingly, I have gone 54 years and never once deliberately made friends with felons.
Palooza
It’s nice that you think you are doing well in this argument. You actually lost a while back when you shifted your argument from the one that was a loser (to another one that was also a loser).
How nice for him.
McCain’s time in the Navy: 23 years, six of which were spent in a POW camp during a police action in SouthEast Asia.
McCain Sr’s time in the Navy: 41 years; one World War.
McCain’s grandfather’s time in the Navy: 39 years; both World Wars.
There’s nothing dishonorable about retiring at rank-equivalent of Colonel. I have a friend that just retired as a Lt. Col. in the Marines, and he’s a good guy. Failure? Hardly.
Now, I don’t think that it says anything particularly advantageous about his potential as CinC, but it does say some things about his character. I don’t particularly agree with many of McCain’s positions, but he has my respect.
Even a first lieutenant that requests a discharge after only four years has my respect; it’s what he did afterward that had that respect fall by the wayside.
– #162
– Palooza, you can post links to obfuscation and long winded bloviating until your blie in the ass.
– The fact is that Kerry was called a liar to his face, and issued several challenges calling his bluff, and he refuses to stand up and respond.
– Hes been called out and remains a lying weasel.
– Money talks, bullshit walks.
– You got nothing.
BMoe! OMG Obama was once introduced to a 60s radical…. he must be a terrorist sympathizer!
Palooza
You need to have gone back through Beldars links into when he first started covering the issue. He challenges were specific. And he thorough debunks the debunkers, showing their basic dishonesty in the debate.
Get real.
I wonder if Obama would pass a background check.
Darleen that is amazing, you are an incredible woman. LOL.
Good lord, waht can one do against such invincible ignorance?
and the crappy keyboard strikes ironically……..
For the record, I never said that Obama was a terrorist, just that he is not the slightest bit embarrassed to be associated with 2 who were and who are proud of that fact even now.
don’t forget he also had a profile of him on his website and called his views “main-stream” course it’s disappeared now. I wonder why.
Now that’s some funny: Someone posting as “Learned Hand” and doesn’t know the difference between ‘are’ and ‘our’.
LH–Some examples of talking to Lefties:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/users/profile/RTOTrainer
Palooza
Have you ever had to go through a background check? What kind of security clearance have you ever held?
Royf I posted a link with all of the relevant debunking. Make yourself less ignorant and read through it.
That site is a joke just as you are.
I’ve read all the BS “debunking” you leftists have come up with and I don’t buy any of it. Show me the original dated documents about the incidents the Swifties raised. Show me a Naval Discharge dated in the early 1970’s which is when his 6 years in the Navy were over.
You’ll never be able to do it because its not out. And you think I don’t know who is lying. You are the fool as well as the one believing nothing but lies.
Obama was once introduced to a 60s radical…. he must be a terrorist sympathizer!
Don’t know about that, but it is pretty apparent the terrorist is an Obama sympathizer.
Palooza,
Look, the easiest way to determine whether the Swifties were accurate is whether or not Kerry released his military record to all and sundry to review (like every other presidential candidate has always done) and whether or not he released is “war diary”. He did neither, even though he swore on national television that he would release them. Doesn’t that tell you that he is hiding something.
Nothing the swifties said has been proven to be wrong. Many of the things Kerry said (Christmas in Cambodia, magic hat) have been proven to be lies.
So, instead of trying to convince us that the Swifties were liers and evil for discussing their experiences during the Vietnam war (somehow, it is wrong to challenge Kerry’s “memories” of Vietnam, but perfectly o.k. to challenge 154 other vets’ memories of Vietnam), let’s focus on the issue here.
You started this brouhaha by claiming that McCain’s experience in the military was “lackluster” and was not good enough to be president.
I challenge you to do 2 specific things:
1) provide some facts as to how McCain’s military career was lackluster; and
2) provide some facts as to actual experience that Obama has that you believe is more relevant to being president than experience that McCain has (and remember, I am talking about EXPERIENCE, not policy positions or “judgment”).
Otherwise, admit that this is a foolish argument.
How can the left go from saying that military experience is irrelevant (1992) to the only thing that matters (2004), back to irrelevant (2008)?
Anyway, gotta run. Take a critical look at this argument and you may all learn some things about yourself. Notice how it devolved into every whacky rightwing conspiracy theory about “Baracky” “Barry” BHO that ever came about. As does every thread where you people get challenged. I leave feeling confident that you see that scrutinizing McCain’s military experience as indicative as executive experience for the POTUS is completely fair and not the stuff of SBV (at least as far as Clark’s comments were concerned). Nobody has debunked or disputed that with anything resembling a good argument. As such, my point is made. Now you can all go off and pretend that Obama, Kerry and every other Democrat that ever lived is an evil terrorist-loving, man-on-dog-seeking, commie, elisist…. blah blah blah (and you wonder why you are becoming irrelevant).
Washington wasn’t a particularly successful military guy, except for in terms of rank. His most redeeming characteristic, as far as I’m concerned, was that he was absolutely disinterested in power, and paid a great deal of attention to fairness and respect for others.
And was repaid not-in-kind by Jefferson, IIRC.
“Good lord, waht can one do against such invincible ignorance?
– The anecdote for the “big lie” poison is time.
– Truth, like oil, inevitably rises to the surface, so time is the Leftists arch enemy.
I recommend Palooza read “Radical Chic: or Hau-hauing the Flak Catchers” by Tom Wolfe.
It’d be an eye-opener.
Don’t know about that, but it is pretty apparent the terrorist is an Obama sympathizer.
Ha. Good stuff.
Wow, so you can just declare yourself the winner?
I did not know that? My thesis defense would have been so much easier that way.
ah, declare victory and run away. yay!
Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.
200!
Slartibartfast
Washington really, really wanted to fight too. He had to be talked out of it by his junior officers on more than one occasion. As it turns out, he had the kind of boldness needed.
– Personally, I’m guessing it was the “money talks, bullshit walks” that did him in.
199#
Until the Obamessiah is anointed, then dissent will land me a ticket to the re-education center, lest I disrupt the new world order of CHANGE!
Again, it’s nice that Palooza thinks he has all his bases covered. I mean without folks like him around, fraud might well just disappear and then the con men and professional liars of the world would need to get real jobs.
“You simply buy everything you hear and convert it into the likes of a cartoon character. ”
So give us something of substance.
Comment by ProggHero on 6/30 @ 10:44 am #
Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.
Do you believe blowing up buildings is a patriotic form of dissent?
If one had an extraordinary imagination one would have expectations that supporters of Senator Obama would have some sort of list of his accomplishments to present to those who find his blank resume a matter of some concern. I suppose one could exercise an extraordinary imagination and imagine some sort of accomplishment that might count as experience but doesn’t that reduce Senator Obama to the level of the Tooth Fairy or Santa Claus? Will exhibitions of the mendacity of dopes be enough to sway the muddle?
“Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.
– If you were actually dissenting instead of parroting the anti-American lies and propaganda of people that have motives to take down your country then I would back you all the way. As things stand, not so much.
“You simply buy everything you hear and convert it into the likes of a cartoon character. â€Â
The sweet delicious irony of hearing that from a Lefty.
“9/11 was an inside job! Rumsfeld armed Saddam! Cheney tortures for fun! BushitlerMcChimpyHaliburton!!!!”
Yes, truly the side of rationality.
Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.
I disagree.
So give us something of substance.
He tried. It ended up being easily distilled down to the fact that (some) Obama supporters don’t like it that McCain can point to experience in the military that shows what kind of man he is (was).
I always feel like I’ve been tricked into supporting McCain in discussions like this.
“Anyway, gotta run.”
That’s the hallmark of Kerry, Obama and all their supporters. A backbone of Silly Putty.
Go PUMAs.
If Clark’s point was simply that being a POW does not give one executive experience, than that is not really a debatable point.
However, Palooza and Progghero came to this site and claimed that McCain’s military records was “lackluster” “a failure”, etc. they also claimed that being a Squadron Commander did not give him executive experience. When challenged, they kept changing their point and now have run away.
I challenged Palooza several times to actually state what “experience” Obama had that he believed was more relevant than McCain’s experience. He did not offer one thing.
The sad thing is that he probably really believes that he said something of substance here today. I don’t think that today’s children are taught reading comprehension or logical thinking at all.
If dissent is the highest form of patriotism (btw, where did that excrement of a slogan come from??) that would make the Tories the most patriotic Americans EVAR!!!
Nice sentiment on the week of Independence Day……….
– I’m always amazed that people that think of themselves as the “elite” lack even the tools of simple understanding to realize that all these ill-advised campaigns of “capture the narrative” based on total inverse thinking, and profligate lying serve only to galvanize support for a candidate, McCain, who otherwise would just be another lackluster politico.
– I absolutely concur ED.
Our Liberal friends here would do well to read over the “Code of Conduct” which wiould give them some idea, not only of what is expected of a POW, but also of how much is simply disgracefully discounted by GEN Clark, who I must assume at least has had a passing familiarity with the document.
Then again, SEN Obama is supposed to have been a Constitutional Law professor as well with little to no knowledge of what’s in that document….
Techie
Origin of the statement.
Techie: Howard Zinn said it. It is usually wrongly attributed to Thomas Jefferson though.
I practice my dissent on the 4th of July because that makes me feel so patriotic I could burst.
ps. I hate bush.
– Yes, H. Zinn, that world famous American patriot. *cough*
carin at #157, you are correct.
But the thread was about Clark comment, so was my answer.
We will judge candidates by our own preferences and political inclinations .
I know I am not going to pay much attention to that type of discourse , and so do you.
Come November time Obama will be running to the right of McCain(giving the speed of his movement now), who we are going to vote then, eh?
I love how Palooza drops in bemoaning civility and then proceeds to lie, obfuscate, and otherwise act like that bad-faithed collectivist that it is.
Comment by ProggHero on 6/30 @ 10:59 am #
I practice my dissent on the 4th of July because that makes me feel so patriotic I could burst.
You failed to answer my question. Does bombing a building constitute patriotic dissent?
GB,
The strongest point of McCain’s POW experience wrt fitness to hold office is that he refused to be released ahead of anyone else. That type of resolve is not untypical of American POWs but it remains as solid evidence of an admirable level of resolution in the face of extreme difficulty.
Senator Obama lacks any comparative experience and the flexibility which he is showing by abandoning people and positions is indicative of a somewhat lower ability to withstand pressure.
No.
Sashal,
Commander in Chief /= Supreme General?
Really?
Dissent will be racist hate crimes when Baracky Hussein Obama is elected President.
Why isn’t Ayers in jail if he is such an evil terrorist? Seems to me your argument is lacking somewhat.
ProggHero, whom I still think is a joker along the lines of thor, posited: “know someone that stole a car, does that make me a car thief? How many of you do not know someone that has commited crimes? Let ye without sin cast the first stone.”
Nicework, conflating an issue of character with an issue of mercy. For crying out loud, how many criminals do you hang out with? Go to parties or political fundraisers with? Share ideas with? I don’t know any, and I’ve have a wide acquaintance over the years.
I think Palooza has a lot of nerve, coming here and insulting happyfeet. Palooza, are you really such a newbie that you’ve never read happyfeetical wordages before? Nerd.
RTO,
Yesterday, I had a Zinn epiphany. The colonialists were just doing the jobs that Native Americans wouldn’t do. So much for Zinn’s book.
PH,
Ayers is not in jail because of prosecutorial misconduct and the statute of limitations. Ayers cheerfully admits what he did.
Unfortunately the FBI isn’t always as competent as they should be.
Ms. Dohrn failed to appear in court in the Days of Rage case, and she and Mr. Ayers went underground, though there were no charges against Mr. Ayers. Later that spring the couple were indicted along with others in Federal Court for crossing state lines to incite a riot during the Days of Rage, and following that for “conspiracy to bomb police stations and government buildings.” Those charges were dropped in 1974 because of prosecutorial misconduct, including illegal surveillance.
Comment by ProggHero on 6/30 @ 11:05 am #
No.
Good. Would you knowingly associate with someone who did bomb buildings as a form of patriotic dissent?
You don’t have to lie for him, Proggie, Ayers gleefully confessed after the whole “double jeopardy” thing protected him.
He also said he regretted not being involved with more bombings.
Karl, if you did not notice I am pretty much citing comments left to the article you linked to on the Politico. There is some breathtaking stupidity on display there.
Obama 08
I actually have Zinn’s book right here in front of me. I bought it long before I knew what it was and didn’t find out because it took years to actually get around to opening it. (not an unusual thing for my book purchases)
“Why isn’t Ayers in jail if he is such an evil terrorist? Seems to me your argument is lacking somewhat.
– No, what this comment shows is you tend to talk and opine about things you lack education in.
– Ayers turned Fed evidence and testified against his buds, and so was let off th hook, something the Feds are not all that anxious to broadcast. He was guilty as sin, and to this day bemoans he didn’t do enough patriotic acts.
What is it with the “you guys are becoming irrelevant” talking point that keeps appearing in every progg (and Nishi) debate?
Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.
I thought it was arugula.
– Thats the official line Karl. taking advantage of screw ups during the proceedings. Part of the plea agreement was to give Ayers cover because he wouldn’t agree to the witness protection program. Apparently Ayers was terrified his “brothers” would visit a patriotic act on him.
Comment by ProggHero on 6/30 @ 11:08 am #
Why isn’t Ayers in jail if he is such an evil terrorist? Seems to me your argument is lacking somewhat.
Ayers did admit to it, and said that he regretted not doing more. You were the one who brought up the “dissent is the highest form of patriotism” meme. I was just trying to determine if you thought that terrorism was a proper form of political activism when protesting government policy.
I love the smoky peppery taste of freshly picked organic arugula.
“What is it with the “you guys are becoming irrelevantâ€Â
– Its called “whistling past the cemetery”.
CArin,
The “irrelevant” talking point is part-projection, part wishful thinking. Among infantile Obamatons, there is this “thought” that Obama winning renders non-Leftist thought “non-viable.” The reverse was not true in 1980, 1984, 1988, 2000, 2002 or 2004, but it’s fairly obvious by now that such people have no grasp of history.
ACK, RTO, you BOUGHT that book? I’m hoping it was in a discount bin.
‘…the “you guys are becoming irrelevant†talking point…’
is merely a species of ‘button pushing’ familiar to married couples everywhere, an indication of a streak of cruelty that runs deep in humankind. There’s nothing to be done about it.
Is there an article out there, somewhere, from which it is gleaned? Or, is it simply group-think?
BBH,
That’s interesting. Of course, the bottom line is the same — Ayers not doing jail time had zip to do with his guilt, which he admits.
I personally find this line of questioning sickening, but it is karmic payback for 04 swiftboat campaign. This is the ultimate Rovian legacy, disgusting campaigning.
CArin,
Group-think, afaik. It’s hard to think of even some Lefty columnist making such a ridiculous claim. It smacks of the Obama cultist who has no idea of poilitcs before the last two years or so.
Some more points, now that I’ve caught up again: BFD, that Obama was a college lecturer. So was I, for 10 years, and that experience only makes me qualified to hate stupid young people.
I think Palooza’s a faking-it comedian, too, otherwise he’d have:
Listed Obama’s executive accomplishments;
Listed McCain’s executive failures;
Successfully proved that the “Swiftboaters” were wrong and, incidentally, won that million bucks that’s still up for grabs;
Done just a tad more than blather moronically and then run away.
Since he did none of that, I must assume he’s just another comedian.
Is Proggie just talking to itself now?
Commander of a squadron of fighter jets is a typical soldier. Who knew?
Even more to the point, commander of a squadron of Navy fighter jets. I’m pretty sure that you don’t usually find “soldiers” (typical or otherwise) in that job.
ProggHero
She had it coming. Did you see what she was wearing? See also, “we learned it by watching you” and “You made us do it”
“Comment by ProggHero on 6/30 @ 7:56 am #
What comes around goes around. After the swift boat smears you guys should expect this.”
What I have never been able to figure out, is why did Kerry have to change his story FOUR times when the Swiftboaters were “smearing him”?
Comment by ProggHero on 6/30 @ 11:24 am #
I personally find this line of questioning sickening, but it is karmic payback for 04 swiftboat campaign. This is the ultimate Rovian legacy, disgusting campaigning.
What question(s) do you find sickening? And what karmic payback for 04 payback are you talking about?
“This is the ultimate Rovian legacy, disgusting campaigning.
– Yes, it can certainly be disgusting when you back someone loud and long, expend all that time, energy, and money, only to discover too late that hes a lying twatweasel and scumbag opportunist of the worst kind.
– I have some Dem friends that would like to kick the crap out of him for duping the whole party so badly.
Well you guys slandered the war hero John Kerry in 04.
I lost count. How many time sdid Paloser declare rhetorical victory even after having his fallacies called out numerous times.
This is a person who does a victory dance when they win at solitaire.
Where slandered is newspeak for told the truth about, or simply voted for the other guy.
Who are you calling “you guys”? I believe it was a group of Swiftboat Vets who leveled the charges. I have the book on my shelf … I didn’t slander. I read and supported.
Comment by ProggHero on 6/30 @ 11:37 am #
Well you guys slandered the war hero John Kerry in 04.
I didn’t slander anyone. And I didn’t type “I hate bush”, or any such thing. I asked you if you would knowingly associate with someone who did bomb buildings as a form of patriotic dissent?
proggieparody:
Which happened first? “Us” slandering the “war hero” or Kerry slandering virtually all of the people who served in Vietnam as “war criminals?”
You know, good for the goose, good for the gander? The ivery idea of that preening, arrogant, partician-wannna be asshat as “victim” is laughable beyond all measure.
Someone asked rhetorically upthread whether we’d ever seen Sen. Obama deal with a ‘crisis’ of any sort. Seems to me Obama’s behavior gyring about Rev. Wright’s introduction to the public by way of YouTube and subsequent responsive insistence on getting out his BLT message while learning that Sen. Obama is merely a ‘politician’ as opposed to an emissary of ‘the God’s Truth’ constituted a crisis re-action of a sort. And Obama’s seven or eight materially different explanations of the relationship of Rev. Dr. Wright and himself ought to stand as a concrete example of our expectations of Obama’s probable behavior as President-in-Crisis. Or is there another example that comes to hand?
Wesley Clark, super genius.
He’s going a great job of getting Republicans and others who really don’t like McCain all that much to get a chance to really embrace him over an experience for which Obama has no equal.
I’ll assume that Wes Clark will be relegated to one of those low level staff positions from which all the Obama gaffes seem to emanate.
Darleen it was, at 108.
Seven that is simply the guilt by association and Rovian politics that we have all come to know and love. Ayers is not running for president, Obama is.
It is amusing that Obama’s campaign is doing what I thought would be the impossible, getting me to rally to McCain. Instead of fuming all morning about McCain’s statements to the latino conference (basically saying that he was going to push for amnesty [comprehensive reform]), I am arguing for McCain.
Again, I actually hope that Obama’s side keeps this type of thing up, b/c it will backfire miserably. Not only will it backfire with the mushy middle, it will get conservatives to get out and vote who otherwise would sit on their hands in November.
I truly do not understand the thinnking behind this tactic.
Comment by ProggHero on 6/30 @ 11:49 am #
Seven that is simply the guilt by association and Rovian politics that we have all come to know and love. Ayers is not running for president, Obama is.
George Bush isn’t running for president either, yet you want to say electing Senator McCain is Bush III.
Seven that is simply the guilt by association and Rovian politics that we have all come to know and love. Ayers is not running for president, Obama is.
So, who a candidate choses to associate with is never fair game for determining that candidate’s character and/or philosophy?
So, who a candidate choses to associate with is never fair game for determining that candidate’s character and/or philosophy?
Yeah, I and never heard anyone demonize George Bush for being associated with Ken Lay! Interesting!
Not only will it backfire with the mushy middle, it will get conservatives to get out and vote who otherwise would sit on their hands in November.
Not just conservatives; I was planning to sit this one out myself.
Not now.
[…] never question the patriotism of others in this campaign” and implictly threw his surrogate Wesley Clark under the campaign bus for questioning John McCain’s war […]
Redundancy alert!
Well you guys slandered the war hero John Kerry in 04.
which “you guys” would that be? and “slander” has a specific legal remedy, that Kerry deliberately doesn’t persue. Beldar even specifically waived any statute of limitations if campKerry would like to sue him for repeating and republishing the Swift Boat “slanders.”
Proggie, face up to reality. Kerry was caught in several provable lies (Cambodia, magic hat) about his brief Vietnam service and he doesn’t want to expose more.
Ok Kerry was a shitty candidate. There you happy?
Overall I agree with the latter comments. This kind of thing makes me feel like supporting McCain. Don’t these fools realize that McCain’s real issue is with his base? Many of us are on the fence about voting for him. I think I will end up doing it because the people in the armed forces would prefer it that way. But it’s getting easier to support him as a response to all this carp that gets thrown at him.
His immigration stance still sucks, though.
Attention Obamatons,
Wes Clark is officially under the bus. Check the track back at #273 or go to the main page for details and new talking points.
I can hardly wait for what O! and friends will come up with next. I had anticipated have a few drinks before filling in my ballot for Maverick, but as time goes on – the alcohol quotient is getting lower and lower.
ProggHero: “There is no way you can blame Obama for knowing Ayers. They only served on a charity board together and attended a couple parties. To say that he is down with terrorists is casting aspersations on Obama’s character and should not be allowed. I know someone that stole a car, does that make me a car thief? ”
Ithink the older generation said it best. “Tell me who you walk with and I’ll tell you who you are. It may not make you a car thief, but it certainly makes me question your judgement, i.e. your choice in associates…
Neither is Bush. Hasn’t stopped you from inserting him into the McCain dialogue. A bit inconsistant, that.
Ayers is a political supporter of Obama. They have worked closely together on that Chicago education board. Ayers has raised money for Obama’s campaign. What should we do, proggieparody, just ignore the relationship? Just as we should ignore Rezco and Dorhn and Wright and Pelegi and the self described socialist who’s in charge of his blog? None of that speaks to the man, his motives or his judgement?
Start applying that merciful metric to George Bush and then maybe you’ll have something to talk about. That’s not going to happen, is it?
Instead, let’s have a deep and meaningful discussion SCRUTINIZING whether commanding a fighter wing constitutes real executive experience if it isn’t “wartime.” This makes McCain suspect running against a guy who hasn’t had virtually any executive experience of any kind! But, hey! Judgement is more important than experience, anyway. We know that Obama’s judgement is superior! Not from anything he’s actually “experienced” but because of the superior judgment of HIS WORDS!!11eleventy11!!
The argument was patently ridiculous from both you and Palooza over 200 comments ago. It still is. However, I’m sure that Paloser will be along to explain why I’ve lost the argument because I called someone a name or didn’t accept as revealed truth something that Paloser believes to be !TRUE! and, thus, my entire contribution can be marginalized. Paloser can declare victory over evil ‘Thuglicans and the Obama can be allowed to mount the throne of the Lighbringer.
Or you and paloser and mount your lifesize Obama dolls. Either way, gales of laughter ring out.
But it’s getting easier to support him as a response to all this carp that gets thrown at him.
That’s two of us!
“#Comment by ProggHero on 6/30 @ 10:44 am #
Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.”
No it isn’t, you retarded marmoset.
Another one bites the dust. Another one under the bus. And another one’s gone, and another one’s gone, another one under the bus.
“#
Comment by Education Guy on 6/30 @ 10:59 am #
Techie
Origin of the statement.”
So the reactionary leftist lie again.
SHOCKA!
““Comment by ProggHero on 6/30 @ 7:56 am #
What comes around goes around. After the swift boat smears you guys should expect this.—
What smears? What lies?
The other reactionary never answered, do you have the balls to take a stab at it?
Comment by ProggHero on 6/30 @ 12:06 pm #
Ok Kerry was a shitty candidate. There you happy?
No.
Kerry is/was a lying, traitorous, treasonous, gigolo who shot himself in the ass and typed up his own commendation reports.
“#Comment by ProggHero on 6/30 @ 11:37 am #
Well you guys slandered the war hero John Kerry in 04.”‘
What slander?
Bring it on, boy.
“guilt by association”
Perhaps. But since there is no record there. Since there is no experience there.
What else can he be judged by?
Obama’s going to need to get a wheel alignment on that bus. :-)
“#
Comment by ProggHero on 6/30 @ 11:49 am #
Seven that is simply the guilt by association and Rovian politics that we have all come to know and love. Ayers is not running for president, Obama is.”
Ayers supports Obama.
Is that a “slander”, now?
Gen. Clark has been added to the pile of people under the back of Baracky’s bus. Barry “Don’t you dare call me Hussein” Obama says that was not the Gen. Wesley Clark that he knew, and called for racial healing.
From Obama’s speech:
Aaaaaand Obama’s Spokesperson Bill Burton:
I wonder if paloser will be back to complain that Obama and his people didn’t look at the whole video?
Nah!
Mr. O’Brain, I have someone from the Retarded Marmoset Anti-Defamation League on line five, and he sounds pissed. Also retarded, but mostly pissed.
So I guess General Wesley Clark can forget about that VP slot now?
BA-BUM-BUMP!!
But it’s getting easier to support him as a response to all this carp that gets thrown at him.
HA!!
and he sounds pissed. Also retarded, but mostly pissed.
Great sentence, McGehee.
When did people start throwing carp?
Is that anything like dwarf tossing? BTW, for those that may be interested, the world record for dwarf tossing is 12 feet 9 inches.
300 BITCHES!!! WHOOO-HOOOOO!!!
Little-known fact: carp-throwing is one of the oldest sports in human history. It began shortly after the first diagnosed case of dyslexia.
I now totally condemn Wesley Clark’s statements.
Is that anything like dwarf tossing? BTW, for those that may be interested, the world record for dwarf tossing is 12 feet 9 inches.
Is it PC to say “dwarf” anymore? I thought it was now referred to as “vertically challenged.” When I hear “dwarf”, I think of Dr. Lovelace in Wild Wild West.
Comment by ProggressiveHero on 6/30 @ 1:04 pm #
I now totally condemn Wesley Clark’s statements.
You forgot the ☻ !’08&#trade;
You forgot the ☻ !’08™
Damn!
You forgot the ☻
Not cool. At all.
I once caught a carp after a flood by hitting it with a wiffle ball bat.
7-11ty – It may not be PC, but I can refer to my phobias however I choose. ;-)
If Obama is elected in November, will he be the first candidate elected president who CANNOT pass an FBI background check?
I used to hear that said about Clinton. Maybe that’s why he wanted to see all those raw FBI files?
Or, it could be the slaughter of Republican candidates in 2006, the polls on right track/wrong track (19% to 81%), the generic party affiliation measure (58/36 Democrat/Republican), the president’s approval rating of 29% (second lowest in history), or even as Greenwald mentioned today, the fact that not one Democratic incumbent lost in 2006 and not one is in trouble for 2008 (as of June 30 and he idiotically begins searching for Blue Dogs to purge). it could be because you couldn’t stop a moderate from being nominated, despite all the far right disgust over McCain.
Jeepers, your only victory the entire election season was Limbaugh’s Operation Chaos.
You people and your beliefs are so out of touch with the mainstream, you might as well be posting on the international Workers’ party website.
As the water has drained from the conservative swamp, only the deepest pools remain. Welcome to the pool.
PS Sam, people like you have been saying that same line since 1972. Could you save the “new President can’t pass on FBI check, ’cause he didn’t belong to the John Birch Society” smear for your impending exile?
Seriously, St. Ronald Reagan was the head of a Union in the 30’s (with Commie ties), so he couldn’t pass one. Clinton was a dope-smoking loud mouth with enough broads in the closet to amaze Wilt Chamberlain, and the current President was a drunk and part-time druggie for the first 20 years of his adult life. The only President since 1980 who could have passed one was George the First. Is that your idea of a grand president?
PPS Who thinks this election defeat will be 1932 style as opposed to 1964? I’m leaning toward 1932.
Funny how those got to looking so bad only after the Dems took control of Congress.
…yet still twice as high as Congress.
Nice try, sock puppet.
It is not guilt by association, nobody is accusing Obama of being a terrorist. We are accusing him of associating with terrorists, and you seem to agree.
Mr. Proghero, please note that there is a fuel surcharge for more than 3 movements.
Mr. Burgundy, where do you want these placed?
You people and your beliefs are so out of touch with the mainstream, you might as well be posting on the international Workers’ party website.
Interesting then that the dems only won control of congress by running on conservative platforms and that your presidential candidate tries to hide his liberal positions and embrace conservative ones. Whose ideas are out of the mainstream again? When was the last time any dem actually positively claimed any liberal position as his/her own?
When your candidates actually run on what you really believe and win, maybe you will have a point. At least our candidates proudly state what they believe and run on that, and usually win. Dems cannot ever say the same except in extreme urban areas. Otherwise, they hide any leftist beliefs behind conservative rhetoric. Funny that.
GEN Clark; (Speaks) Up and (Leaves Stuff) Out….
But it wasn’t important stuff, I’m sure.I mean, if I were to make the statement that GEN Clark’s service in Vietnam didn’t amount to much because all he accomplished was to step in front of a bullet and get evacuated on a ……
Oh. That should be *marijuana* … I ended up missing my train, btw… which was ok cause that gave me 80 minutes for that Hunger Games book. Oh and also thank you B Moe and also thank you ushie. How not fun is that Palooza person? I have a feeling I missed a lot today. Stupid treo is about worthless.
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