March 25, 2008

Dems 2008: The Obama Doctrine of “dignity promotion” [Karl]

At The American Prospect, Spencer Ackerman would like to tell you about the Obama Doctrine in foreign policy.  At least, he would like to relay the spin from Barack Obama’s foreign policy advisers:

They envision a doctrine that first ends the politics of fear and then moves beyond a hollow, sloganeering “democracy promotion” agenda in favor of “dignity promotion,” to fix the conditions of misery that breed anti-Americanism and prevent liberty, justice, and prosperity from taking root. An inextricable part of that doctrine is a relentless and thorough destruction of al-Qaeda. Is this hawkish? Is this dovish? It’s both and neither — an overhaul not just of our foreign policy but of how we think about foreign policy.

Ackerman does not have much of a clue about what that means, however.  Accordingly, he must add the caveat that “When considering any presidential hopeful’s foreign-policy promises, it’s important to remember that what candidates say is, at best, an imperfect guide to their actions in office.”  So most of his article is his chit-chat with and profiles of members of Team Obama, most of whom will be familiar to regular PW visitors. 

Retired Air Force General Scott Gration makes an appearance, though Ackerman neglects to mention that Gration’s big idea is eliminating nuclear weapons globally — a position that would be considered monumentally reckless but for its near-impossible utopianism.  Obama has said only that “he would seek a world without nukes but would never disarm unilaterally.”  Mars has no nukes, so Obama can cross that one off the to-do list.

Ben Rhodes, the adviser who writes Obama’s foreign-policy speeches, gets to tout Obama’s position that if he had actionable intelligence on the whereabouts of al-Qaeda’s leadership in Pakistan but no cooperation from the Pakistani government, he would take out the jihadists.  Though I have no great objection to that position — depending on its execution – neither Rhodes nor Ackerman explains whose dignity is promoted by it, either.

Ackerman frames Obama’s “dignity promotion” doctrine as a response to critques of the Bush administration’s policy of promoting democracy:

What’s typically neglected in these arguments is the simple insight that democracy does not fill stomachs, alleviate malaria, or protect neighborhoods from marauding bands of militiamen. Democracy, in other words, is valuable to people insofar as it allows them first to meet their basic needs. It is much harder to provide that sense of dignity than to hold an election in Baghdad or Gaza and declare oneself shocked when illiberal forces triumph. “Look at why the baddies win these elections,” [booted ex-adviser Samantha] Power says. “It’s because [populations are] living in climates of fear.” U.S. policy, she continues, should be “about meeting people where they’re at. Their fears of going hungry, or of the thug on the street. That’s the swamp that needs draining. If we’re to compete with extremism, we have to be able to provide these things that we’re not [providing].”

This is why, Obama’s advisers argue, national security depends in large part on dignity promotion. Without it, the U.S. will never be able to destroy al-Qaeda. Extremists will forever be able to demagogue conditions of misery, making continued U.S. involvement in asymmetric warfare an increasingly counterproductive exercise — because killing one terrorist creates five more in his place. “It’s about attacking pools of potential terrorism around the globe,” Gration says. “Look at Africa, with 900 million people, half of whom are under 18. I’m concerned that unless you start creating jobs and livelihoods we will have real big problems on our hands in ten to fifteen years.”

Samantha Power, booted from Team Obama after calling Hillary Clinton a “monster” (and just coincidentally after suggesting that Obama might not be able to get US troops out of Iraq as fast as he says), is apparently unaware that much of what she is advocating is Bush adminsitration policy.  For example, as reported by the Associated Press last month during Bush’s trip to Africa:

The president launched a plan in 2005 to dramatically reduce malaria deaths in sub-Saharan Africa, the worst affected region in the world. More than 80 percent of malaria cases happen here; the disease kills at least 1 million infants and children under five every year. Congress so far has put $425 million toward Bush’s $1.2 billion, five-year program, which has helped more than 25 million people.

***

The U.S. drive to spend money on the health of Africans, including a much larger effort on HIV/AIDS, is appreciated here. In a recent Pew Research Center report, African countries held more favorable views of the United States. than any others in the world. And Bush, the face of the U.S. superpower, is showered with praise wherever he goes. It seems a world away from the sentiment at home, where his public approval is at 30 percent.

Moreover, much of the US effort in Iraq has been and continues to be protecting civilians from militiamen, something the US has gotten better at doing and is teaching local forces to do.  “Baddies” winning elections in a climate of fear is a far more apt description of the sham ballots cast under Saddam Hussein’s reign in Iraq.

Of course, it could be that Team Obama is merely reflecting a Clooney-esque selective concern for places like the Darfur region of the Sudan.  Samantha Power tells Ackerman that the concept of dignity “explains why it’s not enough to spend $3 billion on refugee camps in Darfur, because the way those people are living is not the way they want to live. It’s not a human way to live. It’s graceless — an affront to your sense of dignity.”  The cheap shot would be to note that the refugees probably would not find a higher-class refugee camp much of a solution to their problems, but perhaps Power is alluding to Obama adviser Susan Rice’s zeal for military intervention in Darfur, even if it must be unilateral.  Yet again, there is no flesh on that bone, no explanation of how said military intervention (likely followed by a promised AQ interention) advances dignity or freedom more that the US effort in Iraq.

Similarly, Gration’s suggestion that killing one terrorist creates five more is simply not borne out by the facts.  As longtime PW readers know from the “Are Terrorists Doritos?” series, the increases in terror attacks and casualties of the past few years have occurred almost entirely in Iraq (that trend continued in the 2007 report from State Department report on global terrorism).  The vast majority of those attacks were attributable to internal sectarian violence, stoked to some degree by AQI.  The decrease in sectarian violence in Iraq, due in no small part to Bush administration policy (including the new counter-insurgency manual which Obama adviser Sarah Sewall had a hand in writing), will deflate global statistics and prove Gration wrong.  Indeed, even the increases of the past few years did not suggest the sort of escalation Gration claims.

Moreover, there is no suggestion in Ackerman’s article that Team Obama has considered, let alone rejected, the studies suggesting that suicide bombers are neither poor nor uneducated and that it is the more educated terrorists who are more successful in carrying out attacks.  As Alan Kreuger has written for the New York Times (and elsewhere), it is usually corrupt and oppressive regimes that deny political and economic freedom to their people that provide a pool from which the educated may become terrorists.  Public opinion data from the region generally shows that Anti-American attitudes in the Muslim world are not due largely the view that the US has had a double-standard in promoting democracy, including supporting authoritarian regimes in the Arab and Muslim world while not promoting democracy there as it did elsewhere after the fall of the Soviet Union.  In the Mideast, lack of opportunity stems more from political oppression and corruption than from poverty.  In nations where poverty is part of the problem, there is nothing in Ackerman’s piece explaining how Obama’s general opposition to trade agreements on the table will help developing nations in Central and South America, let alone Africa and South Asia.  In sum, dropping the emphasis on promoting freedom likely would have the exact opposite effect from that the Obama campaign intends.

Ackerman claims that the Obama Doctrine is neither hawkish nor dovish and both — an unsurprising description, given its general incoherence.  Naive and uninformed would work, too.

Update: Insta-lanche!

Posted by Karl @ 6:01am
316 comments | Trackback

Comments (316)

  1. and yet much better and superior to any other doctrine from the 3 remaining candidates

  2. “dignity promotion,” to fix the conditions of misery that breed anti-Americanism and prevent liberty, justice, and prosperity from taking root. An inextricable part of that doctrine is a relentless and thorough destruction of al-Qaeda. Is this hawkish? Is this dovish? It’s both and neither — an overhaul not just of our foreign policy but of how we think about foreign policy.

    I really do not like people that talk like this.

    It sounds like their foreign policy will be an extension of the great welfare programs of the past, writ really large.

  3. Yup, sashal. Worldwide socialism, with America footing the bill sounds like a great answer.

  4. [D]emocracy does not fill stomachs, alleviate malaria, or protect neighborhoods from marauding bands of militiamen.

    No, that would be large-scale corporate agriculture, DDT-impregnated mosquito nets, and the individual right to keep and bear arms.

    Too bad the modern left hates those things just as much as they do democracy.

  5. Without it, the U.S. will never be able to destroy al-Qaeda. Extremists will forever be able to demagogue conditions of misery, making continued U.S. involvement in asymmetric warfare an increasingly counterproductive exercise — because killing one terrorist creates five more in his place. “It’s about attacking pools of potential terrorism around the globe,”

    A statement with no basis in fact that also doesn’t actually mean anything or point to anything that might actually be done. It is exactly the kind of tripe you might expect from an empty suit running for national office.

  6. worldwide socialism?
    USSR is over….my friend
    and as far as footing the bill, would you recall how much the adventure and support of the welfare for Iraqis coast us Americans?

  7. Look at Africa, with 900 million people, half of whom are under 18

    have u considered….that this is more chickens comming home to roost, really?
    the product of ignorant meddling with the homeostasis of the worlds population.
    i despise missionaryism….here we have reduced infant mortality thru opps like the peace corps and xian missionary programs, vaccinations, famine reduction, clean drinking water….with nothing for these children to do, now that they are growing up.
    praps not the kind of chickens rev wright was talking about, but chickens all the same.

  8. ” If we’re to compete with extremism, we have to be able to provide these things that we’re not [providing].”

    “Look at Africa, with 900 million people, half of whom are under 18. I’m concerned that unless you start creating jobs and livelihoods we will have real big problems on our hands in ten to fifteen years.”

    Sounds like colonialism to me.

  9. have u considered….

    I considered it to be a normal skew for a pre-industrial life expectancy. I doubt it was much different pre-missionary.

  10. “Ben Rhodes, the adviser who writes Obama’s foreign-policy speeches, gets to tout Obama’s position that if he had actionable intelligence on the whereabouts of al-Qaeda’s leadership in Pakistan but no cooperation from the Pakistani government, he would take out the jihadists.”

    But in a Batack administration, after they get done gutting the American military, who the fuck is going to do it?

  11. Nothing promotes dignity like moving back in with your parents at age 35. So you poor countries that tried it out there on your own – your room is still waiting for you. We haven’t changed a thing. Your soccer participation trophy is still on the shelf. Your written and signed pledge to remain trans-fat free for one week is still on the wall. And your race car bed still has the Hello Kitty quilt on it. So snuggly. Of course, you’ll need to be in by 10.

    Come get your diggity

  12. “Comment by sashal on 3/25 @ 6:12 am #

    and yet much better and superior to any other doctrine from the 3 remaining candidates”

    You really do hate America, don’t you?

    “worldwide socialism?
    USSR is over….my friend”

    But the reactionary left has such a well developed nostalgia bone.

  13. “Extremists will forever be able to demagogue conditions of misery, making continued U.S. involvement in asymmetric warfare an increasingly counterproductive exercise — because killing one terrorist creates five more in his place.

    Except in Iraq, where the people, the precious peee-pul of the reactionary left, the little guy, the man in the street, have turned away from and are fighting civilian-mass-murdering thugs of al Queda in Iraq, along with a nasty train of freelance gangsters.

    Sorry, that meme don’t fly anymore.

    ‘Cause it is, plain and simply, bullshit.

  14. Eliminating nuclear weapons? That was Reagan’s goal with SDI. What’s Whacky Baracky’s position on SDI? I have a feeling he’s against it.

    Nishi, shut up. The adults are talking.

  15. wrong B Moes

    “In Ethiopia, Eritrea, Somalia and Sudan, the population has risen from 60 million in the 1960s to 190 million in 2000.”

  16. Comment by nishizonoshinji on 3/25 @ 6:23 am #

    ‘smatter, you have a problem with little brown people, too?

  17. killing one terrorist creates five more in his place

    Haven’t seen this BS meme in a while. At this rate, there should be approximately 6,849,923,746 jihadis running around.

  18. more chickens
    chickens all the way down

  19. In Ethiopia, Eritrea, Somalia and Sudan, the population has risen from 60 million in the 1960s to 190 million in 2000.”

    Locate Eritrea, Somalia, and Sudan in this list.

    Then shut the fuck up. We’re not your Daddy.

  20. I am referring to half being under 18, nishi, which the writer seems to feel is important. This indicates to me more a problem with adult mortality, don’t you think? With little food, nonexistent healthcare industry, and rampant AIDS in the adult population, wouldn’t you expect a high birth rate and larger percentage of children?

  21. wat do ppl say about the Road to Hell?
    hahahahahahaha

  22. Am I getting something wrong here, or is nishi blaspheming St. Obama in this thread?

  23. Never shall she blaspheme St. Baracky. She is just yammering about chickens what roost.

  24. An inextricable part of that doctrine is a relentless and thorough destruction of al-Qaeda.

    The White House Operations Room, 2010:

    Moonbeam Williams, NSA: “President Obama, our top humint resource in Pakistan has just transmitted the location and layout of a top secret compound hidden in the mountains of the tribal areas of Pakistan.

    He reports that there are two thousand Mujahadeen scattered through a cave complex buried up to two thousand feet inside the mountains. They have a South African nuclear reactor for power, and recycling capacity for air and water sufficient to support two hundred people for five years. There are unconfirmed reports of Russian personnel last known to be involved in biological weapons research working at the facility, as well as North Korean and Syrian technicians missile technicians.”

    POTUS, Barack Obama: “So this al Qaeda facility is ..”

    NSA: “Pardon me, sir, but this is not al Qaeda. According to our source, the organization is called “The Young Men’s Dignity and Welfare Association of South Warzistan”. He also provided a cafeteria menu, with their letterhead. Note the logo.”

    POTUS rattles papers, looks through further briefing materials.

    POTUS: “Who are the people in these pictures? Especially this tall skinny guy with the white turban? Do these people always have to carry AK-47s everywhere they go???”

    NSA: “According to our source, he’s a distant relation to the president of the YMDWASA. He’s regarded as a kind of harmless crackpot uncle. Our source said you would understand.”

    POTUS: “Well, if they aren’t al Qaeda, the thing we have to do is get State to let the Pakistanis know that we know they have another secret complex. Make sure you compliment them on their cleverness. We don’t want to offend their dignity or anything.”

    Some shit you can’t make up.

  25. The Young Men’s Dignity and Welfare Association – Priceless

  26. the product of ignorant meddling with the homeostasis of the worlds population.
    i despise missionaryism….here we have reduced infant mortality thru opps like the peace corps and xian missionary programs, vaccinations, famine reduction, clean drinking water….with nothing for these children to do, now that they are growing up.
    praps not the kind of chickens rev wright was talking about, but chickens all the same.

    I’m willing to wager, that if you confined a titmouse within the space of a keyboard and had it run around the keys for a while, it would type something less stupid than the above comment.
    .
    .
    .
    titmouse. hee.

  27. titmouse.

    Y’all are racists, in case you forgot.

  28. i despise missionaryism

    Yea … Gladys Aylward was such a bitch.

  29. i despise missionaryism

    Well nishi, there’s always dog-fashioned

  30. “the product of ignorant meddling with the homeostasis of the worlds population.
    i despise missionaryism….here we have reduced infant mortality thru opps like the peace corps and xian missionary programs, vaccinations, famine reduction, clean drinking water….with nothing for these children to do, now that they are growing up.
    praps not the kind of chickens rev wright was talking about, but chickens all the same.”

    The amount of evil in that statement is staggering.

  31. So, we were called upon to help the world’s suffering in the first place, we took steps and allocated resources to help alleviate some of the problems, and when those steps worked, and people actually started living into adulthood, somehow it is again our problem, our fault, and our responsibility to do something? Is that about right, nishidiot?

  32. “homeostasis”? In a population? Any population?

    It is to laugh.

    From first slap on the ass to grandpa’s dying rattle, human life is a dynamic event, and by extension all populations are in continuous flux.

    Are we discussing possible foreign policy ramifications of a future Obama administration, or do we just hang that up and get it on re: Teh White Man’s Burden?

    +1 with Mikey NTH. Evil.

  33. eevul is my medium, membah?
    yessss….praps u shud have thot it out.
    in ur rush to accumulate converts, birthcontrol and family planning might have been a good part of the tool kit for developing nations.
    OMG!
    u dont do that do u?
    REPRODUCTION UBER ALLES!!!

  34. “the product of ignorant meddling with the homeostasis of the worlds population.
    i despise missionaryism….here we have reduced infant mortality thru opps like the peace corps and xian missionary programs, vaccinations, famine reduction, clean drinking water….with nothing for these children to do, now that they are growing up.
    praps not the kind of chickens rev wright was talking about, but chickens all the same.”

    Whoa! Did nishi just say that all of the good missionaries and others have done in Africa to improve the lives of millions of the continent’s residents is bad because of all of the extra children? Who are alive? In better living conditions?

    That may be the single most genocidally ignorant statement I have ever read.

  35. You are a fucking moron, nishidiot. Ironic that an aggressive abstinense program has seemed to be the most effective tool against increasing HIV rates in Africa. Somehow every thread with the nishidiot seems to careen back to ESCR, baby killing, or mystical Sufism, or her fear of all other religions other than hers.

  36. Yes, BJ. We give them tools and funds to help them actually live, and nishi blames us for them actually living.

  37. it is wat it is.
    Bad?
    its just more chickens as the result of ignorant meddling in your rush to proselytize.
    do u think those 450 million african youngsters are gonna be grateful to america?
    bwhahaha
    im sure ur intentions were noble.
    and the road to hell is paved with them.

  38. Sounds to me like you can pretty much bone anything that moves in Africa. I see a whole new niche of tourism opening up. I mean forget wine-tasting. I’m going on a pygmy-schtupping tour this year.

  39. an aggressive abstinense program has seemed to be the most effective tool against increasing HIV rates in Africa.
    bullshit

  40. I see a whole new niche of tourism opening up
    the UN can be tourguides.

  41. We give them tools and funds to help them actually live,

    except not bithcontrol, condoms, or family planning
    cuz like that is teh satan, right?

  42. nishi – The approach used in Uganda has been named the ABC approach – firstly, encouraging sexual Abstinence until marriage; secondly, advising those who are sexually active to Be faithful to a single partner or to reduce their number of partners; and finally, especially if you have more than one sexual partner, always use a Condom. A number of factors helped to encourage people to take up these strategies.

  43. Because their right to an abortion clearly supercedes their right to eat.

  44. u r pstve wr not prvdng cndms nishi?

  45. Because their right to an abortion clearly supercedes their right to eat.
    arent they the same thing in overpopulated third world countries?

  46. alpuccino – Not only are we not providing them, we are engage in war profiteering and running up the costs of condoms to the point where they are so scarce, they are too expensive for even the wealthiest Africans. And, we are imprisoning those that attempt to use condoms. Bareback or nothing is our motto.

  47. Long time reader here with a question–is Nishi a sockpuppet/sounding board, or an actual poster? Inquiring minds want to know.

  48. we may be providing condoms NOW, but the horse is out of the barn, isnt it?
    we shud have providing condoms 20 years ago, and family planning, and abortions.

  49. Could you be more arrogant and paternalistic?

    Clearly, you did not look at that link provided previously in comment 20.

  50. People such as nishi are true progressives. All the problems in the world can be traced to people, and if there are no more people there are no more problems. So the solution is to make sure there are no more people. Especially those people in poor parts of the world. according to nishi we shouoldn’t be providing them with medicines, we shouldn’t assist with food production (and relief) we shouldn’t help lift these people up. To the contrary, according to nishi, we should make sure that these people do not have children to reduce the amount of poverty.

    No matter that a nation’s people is its greatest resource, no matter that poverty in these nations is the result of kleptocratic governments and lack of education; the only way, according to nishi to reduce poverty is to reduce the number of these people. As BJTexas said, that is a genocidal position, and invoking the second corrolary to Godwin’s Law, it is the position of a Nazi.*

    *Godwin’s Law: The longer a discussion goes, the odds of someone getting called a Nazi drop to 1:1.
    First Corrolary: The first person to call another a Nazi loses.
    Second Corrolary: Unless the accused is actually a Nazi, or has advocated Nazi-like policies.

  51. How would that fit in with the concept of dignity promotion, nishidiot?

    Us westerners know better than you, so we will dictate to you how to live your life, regulate your sexual practices, and otherwise act in a paternalistic manner because we know better than you savages? Dignity inspiring position there, nishi.

  52. Nishizono Shinji

    im an eevul internet virus with multiple personality disorder and a career griefer.

  53. I believe that nish has graduated from provocateuress to annoyance to distraction, but that’s just me.

    Don’t feed, etc.

  54. When confronted and shown to be outrageously mendoucheous, the nishidiot says “Look! Over there! Something sparkly!”

  55. nishi is beginning to see why we invented teh AIDS. But Baracky iz gonna kick her out of the club.

  56. we shouldn’t assist with food production (and relief) we shouldn’t help lift these people up
    more bullshit.
    u do all those noble things but leave out the family planning part.
    im not sayin u shudnt have done those, but to do things with birth control education is just askin for a population explosion.
    and u wonder why xians are stereotyped as stupid.
    we been doing this since the 60s.
    wat did u expect?
    didn’t anyone do population growth models?
    and now….they dont like us much.
    do u blame them?

  57. without birth control education
    cant u see yourselves at all?

  58. Since Major John is bravely serving his country and allowing me to sit here in 70 degree Colorado (in March!), I’ll fill in for him in reminding everyone in the PW community:

    Please do not engage the typing telephone poles! In this case, I am extending the TTP designation to nishi mainly because I’m sick of her threadjacking every single freaking thread and blaming everything on the white man.

    I’m sick of her crap-tastic spelling.

    I’m sick of her moral superiority and I’m sick of not having good comment threads because everyone feels compelled to respond to her moral bankruptcy and intellectual idiocy rather than the most excellent postings of Karl and Dan (and, less frequently but no less excellently, Darleen, TSI, cranky, etc).

    I don’t want her banned; that would just lead to more of her incessant chest puffery.

    I want her marginalized and ignored. I want her to go to sleep at night knowing that we don’t give a shit about her or her lame presidential candidate or her inchoate thoughts about, well anything.

    I want the fact that we refuse to engage her shell games to eat away at her soul like a ravenous ulcer.

    I want her gone because she had to pick up her ball and go home because we refused to play her game.

    Again: Do not engage the typing telephone poles. Thatisall.

  59. we shouldn’t assist with food production (and relief) we shouldn’t help lift these people up
    more bullshit.

    But we should pass out condoms and teach them how to kill babies. Nice.

  60. we shud have providing condoms 20 years ago, and family planning, and abortions.

    Because in nishi’s insular, ignorant world devoid of real human compassion, this is the only way to deal with the problem. Science without ethics, religion with mysticism, population control as transcendant.

    Lovely…

  61. Typical of people who manufacture their own morality, likely out of an overestimated sense of self, nishi’s solutions all have to do with addressing the symptoms of the problems in Africa rather than the causes leading to them.

    The best part about her idiotic ramblings is that her solutions of more birth control and abortion removes from the African any personal responsibility for their own actions, ensuring that the issues will continue to plague them for as long as people continue to listen to idiots like nishi. Even better, any attempt to help the Africans can be painted as interference, which can be used to explain why encouraging immorality was somehow less than helpful and caused as many problems as it “solved”.

  62. “u do all those noble things but leave out the family planning part.

    Just fucking stop.

    “We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

    … but not everyone has a 48″ plasma screen TV and corporations make people fat, which is bad except for PDiddy, who makes people look phat if they have moneyh. Even some fat people can look phat, but only if they have money, and if they don’t have money we have failed as a nation and have to put on black hoodies, and our keffiyehs, and burn the KFC’s and Starbcks. Cos we DIN’T THnk!!!!!!

    Okay.

    Can we talk about Obama’s (lack of) rational foreign policy proposals now?

  63. I’m with AFS: Time to ignore the thread jacking nishidiot.

  64. Hi. We’re from America. Yes. A-Mer-UH-Ca. Here’s a condom. You need it. Unless maybe you want we can neuter you? We’re trying to control your population, see. This way we can be friends.

  65. You will notice also that nishi doesn’t include herself in the group of people who are helping Africa, it’s not ‘we’ did this, it’s ‘you’ did this.

    Another classic trait of the narcissist, the removal of any shared societal associations with which the person disagrees.

  66. im an eevul internet virus with multiple personality disorder and a career griefer.

    You’re a pig-ignorant, illiterate, arrogant, spoiled child with serious Daddy issues.

    And I’m done with you.

  67. Karl- great stuff and thanks for delving into it.
    I see why he wouldn’t want America to hold itself above other countries, or make it a ‘prize’ to meet with the US President. We have to make other countries feel dignified. That’s what scares me about him.

    JD:I really do not like people that talk like this.
    Oh, big dittos.

  68. Ah, the ideal of the “Noble Savage” returns. To bad that romantic notion gets lost amongst the disease, constant search for food, violence and other barbarism that comes with that state.

    PT

  69. Glad to see another serious Karl post,,,but the discussion here isn’t up to it. Obama’s got a point and it is this one: Bush sucked as POTUS. That’s about it. Whether McCain is better is another question not even considered here. I think the Obama obsession here just proves McCainism is alive and well at PW..(despite the protestations in the past.)

    Okay, Obama would likely get better concessions from other nations than the present arrogant administration. That’s a point that’s hard to refute.

    For one, dignity is Obama’s strong suit. “Mission Accomplished” Bush has lost that quality.

    I’d like to see a discussion about the economic problems that seem to incite terrorism. Seems to me that there are many people in the Islamic world who are relatively well-educated but lack any chance of employment equivalent to their talents and that leads to despair and anger at the politics that the US tends to support. Many, many Iraqis have stated in poll after poll that economic conditions were better under Hussein than they are now. (80 percent). Why hasn’t the US dealt with this ‘dignity’ problem? Democratic freedom is useless if people have to live off US-supplied doles or steal gas for a living with no other types of jobs avail. (e.g. why are we using expensive American subcontractors there for mere maintanence jobs for example?)

    think about why Americans aren’t doing terrorism more even as a majority are losing their personal economic battles: Perhaps as mostly they are employed? and at least have hope of getting a better economic situation?

  70. Yea, I wanna get back to the “Obama foreign policy plan” too … now what the hell is it? See, that’s why we got distracted. Just a bunch of mumbo-jumbo regarding dignity.

    Perhaps he could get into specifics. Like, specifically how is he going to bring dignity to the Palestinians. I think that would be a good place to start.

  71. #57.

    These humans, nishi, have as much of a right to have children as anyone else, and I do not have the right to tell them no – and neither do you. It may surprise the heck out of you, but Africans have children for the same reasons that all other people do, and they also love their children.

    You are a spectacularly creepy and evil person, wanting to control people by taking away the most basic of human rights, the right to have children. God forbid you or anyone else who advocates your positions would get into power. You would perform or support a genocide and you would justify it by saying it was “for their own good.”

    #59

    You are correct, sir. From now on I will just scroll pass the new TTP. Acknowledging is giving that kind of evil too much credibility. Marginalization is in order; a quarrantine, as it were.

  72. It appears that “dignity” is spelled Danegeld in Obama-land.

  73. How is dignity Obama’s strong suit? Given that he’s basically untested … that is merely speculation.

  74. For dignity to appear, doesn’t the subject have to make an attempt to act dignified? If they won’t take that step, how can we give them dignity? Calling someone honorable doesn’t give them honor, it’s their own actions that do that. and since neither dignity nor honor is for sale at Amazon or on E-Bay, I think the whole argument is going to colapse.

    It also seems Obama’s against interventionism, but how you are going to run public health programs and set up food distribution (agriculture and trade routes) while dealing with bandits without someone sending some force into the area to ensure law and order is beyond me. His plan has less substance than that proposed by the underwear gnomes.

  75. Stood still on a highway
    I saw a woman
    By the side of the road
    With a face that I knew like my own
    Reflected in my window
    Well she walked up to my quarterlight
    And she bent down real slow
    A fearful pressure paralysed me in my shadow
    She said ‘son what are you doing here
    My fear for you has turned me in my grave’
    I said ‘mama I come to the valley of the rich
    Myself to sell’
    She said ‘son this is the road to hell’

  76. carin, taking on the Clintons and so far not losing his dignity is a pretty hard test imo. I’d be saying ‘fuckn’ this and ‘fuckn’ that by now if I was in his shoes. Note, that some people in the Democratic side of things call her “Clinton-McCain”.

  77. “Comment by Mikey NTH on 3/25 @ 7:21 am #

    The amount of evil in that statement is staggering.”

    nishi is a well rounded hater.

  78. Bush sucked as POTUS. That’s about it.

    Thanks, Dave. Glad you cleared that up.

  79. Obama would likely get better concessions from other nations than the present arrogant administration. That’s a point that’s hard to refute.

    That is not so hard to refute. I refute it. It is nothing other than your uninformed opinion. Do you think that France, Germany, and Russian would have took a differing position if Baracky were in office? On what basis?

    economic problems that seem to incite terrorism.

    Only problem with that assertion (read – LIE) is that study after study has shown that terrorists tend to be better educated and more well of than the general population. Don’t you hate it when your talking points are just simply made up?

  80. Ho hum. So they found another euphemism for what used to be called “root causes”.

    I have been for a long time, and remain, convinced that the “root causes” assholes are one of the foundational “root causes”.

    Put yourself in their place for a moment. You’re a Mad Mullah; you leave the suite and go downtown in your chauffered limo, and you stand up and explain, in simple expository prose using words of few syllables, what your proposals and intentions are: kill all the Jews, destroy the corrupt Western regimes, and establish the Caliphate to rule the world in compliance with the Law of Allah. Then you sit down, and no sooner have you arranged your clothing — damned Western furniture, no accommodation for decent robes — up pops a glib infidel, who explains that everything you just said was bullshit, that you’re just too poor and ignorant to be up to explaining what’s going on, and your real problem is that Halliburton doesn’t pay enough income tax and Bush doesn’t like gay marriage.

    It’s not so much being called a liar that’s infuriating, it’s the total dismissal of the very concept that you might have aims and intentions that don’t relate in any serious way to the political aspirations of your putative defenders. Maybe that’s why they’re mad.

    Regards,
    Ric

  81. Figured I’d toss this in there- its a little off topic- Kessler over at NewsMax apparently confirmed Obama was there during at least one of the “We hate America” sermons and according to the eyewitness, was apparently agreeing with the rhetoric.

  82. We need to promote their self-esteem, achievements be damned.

  83. d2d,

    Way to miss most of the point. In most of the world, poverty is not inciting terrorism. In Iraq, the US is moving heavily into getting the locals into reconstruction jobs — because we’re getting security restored. BTW, what examples would you Offer of nations making concessions to Obama that the US can’t get now? Conversely, what makes you think that our enemies won’t take one look at BO and figure he needs to be “tested,” messed with to see what they can get away with? And if “Many, many Iraqis have stated in poll after poll that economic conditions were better under Hussein than they are now. (80 percent),” cite two, just two.

    Or check ABC News:

    Interestingly, as security improves, so do people’s economic situations. Fifty-seven percent of Iraqis now say their household finances are good, an increase from last year. Average earnings are up from $322 a month at the beginning of 2007 to $403 a month now. Not only are markets booming, but there is a lot of construction, evidence that people are investing their own money in the expectation that the security situation will continue to improve. At the main checkpoint leading into Fallujah they see an average of 160 trucks a day coming in with cement and blocks.

    The biggest problem ABC News encountered across the country was the lack of central government help. Even as peoples’ lives were improving at a local level, Baghdad was contributing very little to reconstruction. Universally, people complained about the lack of services — 62 percent said medical care was bad, 81 percent complained about a lack of fuel, and — worst of all — 88 percent said they were not getting enough electricity.

    And electricity demand outstrips supply in no small part because getting rid of Daddam has allowed peole access to all sorts of hi-tech and durable appliances they could not get under the old regime.

    Is it Palm Springs? Not remotely close. Can you find recent polls of 80% of Iraqis saying things were better under Saddam? I’ll believe it when I see it.

  84. JD, are you okay? Maybe you need a hot chai tea?

    Econonic conditions are important to dignity or are you saying that an inate sense of entitlement should extend to street beggars and such? Hight Education levels with bad economic conditions had more to do with the fall of the Soviet Union than Reagan did. The Soviets tended to have better education than Americans esp. in math and science and yet? I’ve been reading and met a few Palestinians that had engineer degrees but due to bad economics were reduced to having major chips on their shoulders while cleaning the laundry at their uncle’s dry cleaning store. Or they are in the States doing ‘charity’ work that you’d maybe not condone.

    (educational levels Don’t always correlate with higher income…as maybe, umm, your’s truly….?)

    Obama already has higher opinion levels everywhere on the globe me thinks than the Bush-man. eh?

  85. “#Comment by Dan Collins on 3/25 @ 9:27 am #

    We need to promote their self-esteem, achievements be damned.”

    Oh, great, foreign policy via the teachers unions.

    We are well and truly fucked.

  86. data2dave:

    I think you’re right in agreeing that dignity is important for the Iraqis and that many of them no doubt indicate that economic stability was greater under Sadam. However, this whole dignity thing reminds me too much of the “self-esteem” movement in education. As someone who has taught for over 25 years, I can assure you categorically that you can’t give someone self-esteem. They have to earn their own. Sure, you can make them feel happy for a moment when you pat them on the head for producing average work, but it’ll wear off almost instantaneously and they’ll be back for some more stroking.

    The situation in Iraq is similar. They may think their economy was better under Sadam, and they may be in sore need of dignity, but we sure as hell can’t give them dignity. We got rid of the murderous bastard and cleared the road for a more democratic system. They have to do the rest, and then, voila!, dignity.

  87. “Obama already has higher opinion levels everywhere on the globe me thinks than the Bush-man. eh?”

    Except where it counts.

    Like in Iraq.

    Where the terrible economic conditions are creating….Iraqi citizens….who turn terrorists in to the Iraqi police and the Iraqi Army.

    Any more talking points there, dave?

  88. …oh, and I completely agree with A fine scotch. The nishidiot must be ignored. I’m not a certifiable genius with a 145 IQ, but I can count the number of nishi-points on one hand with which she jacks every single thread she has ever spoiled.

  89. Karl, there is progress esp. (maybe?) since General petrayous. The 70 percent unemployment rate is perhaps heading downward… but after 5 years. What were the idiots smoking when they invaded Iraq and said it’d only take 50 billion dollars to solve the problem?

    I had heard reports of 80 percent saying also that the conditions in Iraq would improve only if the Americans would leave and let them get on with their lives.. (NPR, npr, npr…)

  90. Hight Education levels with bad economic conditions had more to do with the fall of the Soviet Union than Reagan did.

    Yeah, Reagan had nothing to do with blocking the proposed Soviet gas pipeline to Europe, pressing them with SDI and challenging them in Afghanistan, Central America, Eastern Europe, etc. And the (still) high-ranking Russian diplomat who conceded such to me was lying his ass off, d2d.

    BTW, does the support for corrupt terrorist-run govenment have anything to do with the lack of economic opportunity in the PA?

    Also, are you going to address my prior questions about those Iraqi polls, or are you in full-on troll mode today?

  91. Oh, so you don’t have poll after poll; you have some vague recollection of something you have heard on NPR. Glad we cleared that up.

  92. I find that supporters of the war are cherry-picking their facts while general polls such as the one saying it’s okay to shoot at Americans (another one in the 80 percent range) are more scientific. You can condemn the MSM but don’t just take some brass-polishing individual’s word for what “He” thinks is important. I want to see the bigger picture.

    Where is the debate about the “Trillion Dollar War”? I thought Nobel prize winning economist’s Joe Stiglitz’s’ estimate might have been over-the-top.with McCain’s 10+ years of continuing occupation.. that Trillion Dollars seems low-ball now.

  93. “The 3 Trillion Dollar War”…ah, what’s a few trillion here and there when “the shadow banking” world has 50 Trillion to play with (our?) money? Bush just gave ‘em another what 200 billion or 400 billion? to play with.

  94. I see you are changing the subject evry time your talking points get refuted. So here’s where Stiglitz does some shoddy accounting.

    Move on. Dot org.

  95. People seek their own happiness. We here in America, and most of the civilized world, enshrine that idea, and base our laws on that ideal, in our founding documents.

    Islam denies even the merest chance of that ever happening. Compound Islam’s misogynist foundation with the reality that it has been employed as a constituent management tool by dictators for literally thousands of years. Now add the obscene wealth accruing to the chief fomenters of terror by dint of them ending up camped on top of a large part of the world’s available energy supply.

    But wait, there’s more!

    The old tools of control always caused a disagreeable amount of tension within the barbarian countries of Islam. Even with the rules laid down in concrete, there were always disagreements about how many virgins or which hadith actually applied; this was especially troubling when it came to dynastic successions or foreign policy. The number and nature of deaths associated with Islamic society burgeoned with the population inside of Saudi Arabia.

    With the advent of cheap world travel, instant communication, and the rise of the multiculturalism fad in Western societies, the opportunity was ripe to export the violence while keeping the control at home. The Arabs displaced by the failed second Holocaust became a (pardon the usage) godsend for the Wahabbist/Saud alliance.

    They helped create the frankenstein society we now call “the Palestinians”. Instead of manning up, admitting their loss, and absorbing their kith and kin into the larger, remaining ummah, they instead turned the Hashemite Arabs into eternal refugees without any country at all.

    Still with me? I don’t see where George Bush, or any other president before say, Truman and must maybe Eisenhower, had a shot at addressing the “root causes” of terror.

    Islamist terror will never conquer Western civilization. It merely stands ready to move into the vacuum left after the people of the West abandon it.

    Until such time we, the civilized world either commit suicide or pick up the tools to finish the fight, we will be witness to, and victims of, continuing obscenities in the mold of 9/11, Beslan, and Bal. Hopeless men will alway kill when there is no other outlet for their despair.

    Oil money just makes the attacks happen further away from the palaces.

  96. datalessdave – I am not really a chai tea kind of guy. Vitamin Water and Gatorade G2.

    Karl – Go beat your head against a brick wall. Stop. Repeat multiple times. That is more productive than attempting to actually have a discussion with dataless. He is nishi, but older and on shrooms.

  97. glad to see that I’m not the only one into “digressionary analysis”. I don’t think the ‘self-esteem’ movement has much to do with Obama’s ‘dignity’ movement.

    As for education, a teacher’s union rep of long standing said that one of our nation’s Secretary of Education of about 30 years ago…Off the Record said to him: the “bosses” don’t want standards to be any higher, for two reasons: (1) minorities couldn’t keep up and (2) we don’t want people to ask to many questions. (maybe the first is a Democratic principle and the second is a Republican principle).. From the Top… deEducation of America was a plan in other words…! Many teachers want to have higher standards but Administrator are against it.

  98. Econonic conditions are important to dignity…”

    Oh my goodness. It is an attempt to put the “self esteem” strategy into play in a foreign policy/shooting war scenario.

    Great. Now we’re going to have illiterate terrorsts who can’t balance a check book.

    But they will feel real good about themselves, make no mistake.

  99. JD, u sure spend a lot of time w/ nishi… I am not jealous though.

    Administrators plural..sorry, American education is the most Over Administrated system in the world.

  100. too many questions…alright I give up!

  101. Many teachers want to have higher standards but Administrator are against it.

    Making shite up again? That does not track with the positions taken by the NEA, and the state level associations.

  102. tmj Utah, Bravo. You’re thinking, man.

    I’ve always condemned the Bushs for hanging out with the Saudis. Our defense of Saudi Arabia and Kuwait always concerned me. At least Iraqis had a vague middle-class sort of society even under Hussein as bad as he was. Forcing women to have lots of children and very few rights …that’s really what’s going down in Arabia. High birth rates and charity from oil barons (with harums) but little dignity. I never said Multiculturalism was a solution and Obama’s not a muslim from what I can see. Maybe we need to concern ourselves with Turkish genocide against the Kurds for example?

    illiterate terrorists? eh… maybe they’d be less likely to get past the checkpoints?

  103. Comment by Karl on 3/25 @ 9:41 am #

    “High Education levels with bad economic conditions had more to do with the fall of the Soviet Union than Reagan did.”

    Yeah, Reagan had nothing to do with blocking the proposed Soviet gas pipeline to Europe, pressing them with SDI and challenging them in Afghanistan, Central America, Eastern Europe, etc. And the (still) high-ranking Russian diplomat who conceded such to me was lying his ass off, d2d.

    Karl, you got punked by Datadave. And do you know why, ti paneemyish pochemo? Because he is much more right than you, moreover, you are more wrong than him.

    Punked! Smackey, smacked! Did your high-ranking comrad say something in Russian such as “na hooy suka blaht” after telling you what you wanted to hear? Roughly translated that means “find my cock whore bitch” in English, just so you know next time.

    Get a effen grip on your third rate BS, K-tard. The Soviet Union fell from within, any real Russian would tell you as much.

  104. Jd, talking points don’t always correlate with reality. Administrators often concern themselves with brick and morter issues and padding the front office’s while teachers on the front line have to fight them to just get textbooks and such. w/o the Teachers Unions we’d be paying janitor wages to the teachers…cause some people at the top don’t want people educated enough to ask questions of ‘authority’. Over 3 million dollars was paid just recently for a national campaign to smear teachers in general and it’s paid for by the us chamber of commerce and manufacturers assoc. and they’re using the Swift Boat smear artists. Republicans in general just plain hate educators and have been trying to dumb-down education to save on property taxes. And some Democrats have taken the self-esteem b.s. too far too.

  105. thor, glad you spoke to a few Ruskies. Had a few living in my house. Things really sucked for them in the Glorious Nineties. That’s why they were fleeing to Canada or here (if they were lucky to have a touch of jewish blood)

  106. gotta go and get lunch…great to see you all again. Again good posts, Karl.

    McCain? anyone?

  107. thor,

    Given that Russian and Soviet studies were one of my focuses at college, that I visited the USSR and — as noted above — spoke about this very subject with a guy who still sufficiently high-ranking in the Russian gov’t that I feel compelled to keep his confidence, I will note that you have been talking pure BS (as evidenced here by the fact that you addressed not one of my points) for a few days now for no other reason than to pull my chain. I’m still not biting.

  108. I’ve always been chagrined at how the identity of the donors of millions of dollars funneled into the Clinton Memorial Doublewide never seem to appear on the radar at the same time as any other past U.S. presidents’ relations with Arabs comes up.

    It’s just funny how that works. In a crying kind of way.

    My beef with Islam is simple: they want me Muslim, or dead.

    Or a slave.

    That’s the ground rules. That we pretend to have a substantive diplomatic dialog with people actively funding, fomenting, and executing acts of murder on our people and those of our allies is a bummer that is very likely a legacy of casualty fatigue generated by World War One. France and Britain have never recovered; Russia never had a chance to know any different existence since the communists killed more Soviets than the Nazis did on their best days. And here in America a sizable portion of the polity seems to think four thousand dead in theater (not even in combat) is some sort of world ending disaster.

    Do we want the killing to stop? Then we need to choose a side. And then use the tools and resources at our disposal to impose a solution and make it stick.

    Does this mean genocide? No; not even close. My proposed solution does demand an unapologetic avowal of the moral and practical superiority of representative democracy in a secular environment as a workable model for government.

    Our Left – the West’s Left – can’t seem to get on board with that idea. In my opinion, this lack of will will lead directly to the necessity for “ending the threat” in a hideously expensive manner somewhere down the road.

    History will judge the act as “avoidable”. That won’t do much for the hundreds of millions who pay the price for multiculturalism and moral relativism… but in history, mistakes seem to repeat. Even the huge ones. Shucks, especially the huge ones.

    World War 2 didn’t have to happen; the lack of one French Division with an attached British component chasing Hitler out of the Rhineland would have ended the Nazis.

    We know where the threat lives, and why they hate. We just don’t have the moral certitude to go after them. So we pay later.

  109. Obama’s foreign policy seems to be that he will only act with the benefit of hindsight.

  110. Comment by data2dave on 3/25 @ 10:16 am #

    Ya really gotta admire dave’s talent in stringing unrelated words together.

    It must be a gift.

  111. thx for the nysun article. I read the Sun regularly as one of the few conservative sites like this one…that I like. They aren’t the counterweight to the NYTimes as hoped by some conservatives but movie and book reviews are good to read there.

    I’ll take a midpoint value of the war between bush/cheney’s estimate and the 3 Trillion but Stiglitz’s description of the deliberate obstrufication of the costs by the Bush regime are particularly damning of the Bush administration. And since we don’t know when the war will ever be over, 3 Trillion could be an underestimate. Also, Republican talking points fail to distinguish between entitlement programs such as benefits for wounded soldiers which are vastly more expensive than in past wars per person.

    Much of the Sun’s article are good points but don’t invalidate Stiglitz’s argument either.
    s

  112. Look at Africa, with 900 million people, half of whom are under 18.
    to dramatically reduce malaria deaths in sub-Saharan Africa, the worst affected region in the world. More than 80 percent of malaria cases happen here; the disease kills at least 1 million infants and children under five every year

    sry, im just so not up for giving u tools a crash course in population genetics, let alone basic cause and effect.
    u got wat u wanted.
    the children lived.
    so deal.

  113. they lived to reproduce, and to have children that reproduce.
    chickens, just more chickens all the way down.

  114. It’s a whole continent with less people what China has. Also there are giraffes.

  115. Please do not be fed by the trolls.

  116. And, apparently, chickens.

  117. My proposed solution does demand an unapologetic avowal of the moral and practical superiority of representative democracy in a secular environment as a workable model for government.

    wow. like that will be effective.
    just avow some jobs and food and shelter for them Tjm.

    My beef with Islam is simple: they want me Muslim, or dead.

    Or a slave.

    nah, ekshually they just want u to leave them the fuck alone.
    an not send missionaries to make the arabian peninsula into another hellhole loke subsaharan africa.

  118. Comment by Karl on 3/25 @ 10:30 am #

    thor,

    Given that Russian and Soviet studies were one of my focuses at college, that I visited the USSR and — as noted above — spoke about this very subject with a guy who still sufficiently high-ranking in the Russian gov’t that I feel compelled to keep his confidence, I will note that you have been talking pure BS (as evidenced here by the fact that you addressed not one of my points) for a few days now for no other reason than to pull my chain. I’m still not biting.

    Oh fuck, I didn’t know I was in the full throes of debate with a Russian Studies undergrad, my bad. Some time back I lived and worked in Moscow. My white God whoring years, as I recall them. I made Russian dyevs make my bed after I tortured State secrets out of them with my big American penis. Someday when I have more time I’ll tell you all about Victoria, she was Oleg’s and I’s live-in maid who we alternated boning when she wasn’t cleaning and cooking. We rescued her from the whore line down at the Dynamo perahood and made an honest two-timing house slave out of her. And she liked it! She really liked it! What more could a 19-year-old village slut ask for than two employed assholes and a klossney pad with a refrigerator full of beer and vodka? Funniest thing was what our Russian girlfriends said about little Vic – not a fuckin’ thing. I miss that place.

  119. u got wat u wanted.
    the children lived.

    You know who would want that the children didn’t live? Evil people. People like nishi who want easier rather than righteous.

  120. an not send missionaries

    what’s the muslim position on birth control?

  121. and abortion?

  122. No, people like nishi are trolls. What you can count on with trolls is a lot of pot-stirring, but not much in the way of intelligent conversation.

    Plus, pictures of a drunk boy on a chaise lounge.

  123. yah feets but unfettered population growth is exponential, not linear. the chinese have the one child rule…..they are like..pretty interested in birth control.
    population growth rate in Africa is like 111%
    chinese are less than replacement rate.

  124. nope edu guy.i want the children to live…i just want them to be educated about family planning.
    i just think u guys should have put a wee bit more emphasis on birth control.
    like handed out condoms and pills along with the shovels, vaccinations, mosquito nets, hybrid seed, and well machinery.
    seems like kind of an oversight now.

  125. Africa also is super special to Baracky and his Afro-centric god what he and M’chelle pray to with Jeremiah. I don’t think they pray for less Africans specifically. Maybe, but I kinda doubt it. If they wanted less Africans they would be a lot more happy with our inventing AIDS and all I think. Maybe they’re hypocrites though.

  126. but i unnerstand family planning is against ur religion.
    i just marvel at wat u thot was gonna happen.
    dolts.
    since u were instrumental in causing this mess, watchu gonna do about it?
    other than critique O?

  127. and bibles…..i for about handin out bibles.
    praps they can eat the bibles?

  128. Me I love family planning. But for the most part it curves out naturally with development. If you take a long view really it’s trade that is the best family planning. Baracky doesn’t understand that. How can something so deliciously demagogable be good for you?

  129. hahahaha.
    u were all just tryin to help save babies.
    so u dont have any continuin responsiblity.
    my bad.

  130. but it isnt good for me feets.
    it makes me horrible sad.

  131. wat if…bush handed out condoms and birth control pills instaead of mosquito nets on his last trip?
    but he cudnt do that.
    cuz that wud be like….endorsing sex and the theocons want us to know sex is bad.

  132. I think we should just take your suggestions nishi and combine the China one child policy with the Islamic practice of ensuring the females aren’t all that interested in sex. And then, condoms for everyone!

    Just remember, whatever problem you find in this world is caused by those you disagree with politically nishi. It’s how you know you’re smart.

  133. and it wudnt have been nearly as popular.

  134. Who is this “you guys”?

    Have Nishi’s muslim nations stepped in and handed out condoms to the muslims in Africa?
    Is America stopping anyone from doing such a thing?

  135. nope edu guy.i want the children to live…i just want them to be educated about family planning

    You’d have though they knew what causes babies over there in Africa. Stupid brown people…

  136. cuz that wud be like….endorsing sex and the theocons want us to know sex is bad.

    For a smart person, you have to be one of the stupidest people on the planet. All sex is good then? Idiot.

  137. oh education guy, u are very ignorant.
    im a muslimah an i am passionately interested in sex.

    so what do u suggest edu guy?
    just go on giving aid, building churches and sinkin wells, printin more bibles?
    is that ur plan?

  138. maybee im talkin about OUR PERSONAL CHICKENS.
    not muslim chickens or communist chickens.
    quit squirmin and make a suggestion for wat we do NOW.

  139. at least O is making strategy.
    i got nuthin from u guyz.
    u wont even acknowledge u contributed.

  140. I follow Nishi’s point.

    It’s all Because of teh DIG-NITT-ieness of it, huh Nishi? There’s just too many darn nitts to dig.

    I used the little comb that came with the Rid-Ex to de-nitt. But, maybe a strong bath in “eau-de-Barack” will work, too.

    Is that what you’re suggesting? I think I’m with you…

  141. You are saying “you guys”, not “our personal”.

    To be honest, what is happening in Africa irt population isn’t chickens coming HOME to roost.
    They really aren’t our chickens at all.

  142. Don’t pretend you have a plan you ignorant little hussy. What you have is solutions a smokescreen for the symptoms. The problems currently plaguing Africa aren’t going to be solved by pretending morality is irrelevant, that the solutions have to do with killing babies and so called “safe sex”.

    You can only even begin to think such a shallow thing because you are pampered little brat who is shielded by reality by the fact that someone once told you that you had brains.

  143. not muslim chickens or communist chickens.

    You brought up Christian missionaries and theocons, nishi. Now you don’t want to discuss that many Africans are muslim for whom using birth control and having abortion is…?????

  144. Trade is strategy, nishi. Hugely effective, really. Also, anti-corruption. I doubt Baracky thinks calling out corrupt Africans is a big dignity-enhancer, but it needs doing.

    Also we can give them all cheapy laptops. I don’t really get that one really, but can’t hurt I guess.

  145. Where does India fit into this whole dignity promotion business?

  146. “They envision a doctrine that first ends the politics of fear…”

    This sentence shows such an abysmal ignorance of how the world works that no adult needs to read any further. Having worked to elect Jimmy Carter in 1976, I looked back to home from my Peace Corps post in Africa as Jimbo cancelled weapons systems and put out a friendly hand to our enemies. What followed were Communist invasions of Ethiopia, Angola, Afghanistan, Nicaragua, and an America on its heels. I have never voted Democrat again.

  147. Should anyone be interested, here’s diaries from the Politburo:

    On Oct. 8, 1986, shortly before the second summit meeting with Reagan in Reykjavik, Iceland, Gorbachev discussed the missile issue in the Politburo.

    Gorbachev: We have to make concessions on the medium-range missiles. We must do something in Reykjavik if we hope to make any headway. The US wants the negotiating machinery to run dry, but the arms race is overloading our economy. We need a breakthrough.

    Gromyko: We cannot just flip-flop 180 degrees. But the deployment of the SS-20 was a major error in our European policy.

    Gorbachev: We can no longer treat our security from a purely arithmetical standpoint. If they force a second arms race on us, we will be finished. The loss of our submarine (a Soviet nuclear submarine had just sunk off the Bermuda Islands) has revealed to everyone the condition we are in. And we are now supposed to panic and shout: “We are falling behind, let us rearm”?

    The Reagan strategy is summed up as follows:

    The Reagan administration set out to bring pressure to bear on the Soviet Union in at least four deliberate ways. First, through economic warfare, the Reagan team sought to dry up the Soviets’ flow of hard currency from the West, which not only hurt their struggling economy but also cut into their foreign adventurism. The economic war came in several parts, including delaying the Soviet gas pipeline to western Europe, midwifing a drop in oil prices, and slowing the flow of western high technology to the eastern bloc. Schweizer estimates that Reagan’s economic strictures deprived the Soviet Union of at least $15 billion a year in hard currency, at a time when total annual hard currency earnings were only about $32 billion.

    Second, Reagan believed that the Soviets would be unable to compete with the U.S. in an arms race, and he was correct, with the strategic defense initiative the crowning piece of his arms offensive. Third, Reagan decided to turn the tables against the Soviet Union by supporting guerilla insurgencies against its client states and even, in a few instances, against the Soviet Union itself. This step raised the cost of the Soviet Empire in terms of money and blood, most notably in Afghanistan.

  148. Actually, nishi’s argument regarding population, missionaries, and condoms is just so befuddled up, it’s not even worth discussing.

  149. wat is this, some kind of fuckin revelation for u?
    if u remove a lot of existing pre- an post-natal mortality, if u remove malaria attrition and famine attrition and typhoid and cholera, u are goin to get exponential population growth.
    is this a surprise?
    the remedy is birth control.
    small family size is the highest positive correlate with SES.

    yah, cuz u thot u were doin “good works.”
    /spit

  150. India is the future, MayBee. They and us is why the world has very bright prospects I think. Indians are fired up and ready to go. They’re so far ahead of anything Baracky is contemplating I don’t think they’ll really notice he’s there.

  151. Guess my strikethrough tags didn’t work.

  152. There are only two ways to control population; birth control (abstinence, condoms, birth control pills, abortions, etc.) and death control (disease, famine, war, etc.).

    When death control is attenuated, birth control must expand, or populations explode beyond the ability of their environments to sustain them. Scarcity of food and resources, the consumption of farmland for housing, a collapse of sanitary conditions, increased contagion due to increased human proximity, and progressively more vicious competition for what little is left results. Then death control re-emerges. In spades.

    Which is more ethical and which is less? Is it better for these children not to be born at all, or for them to be born and then die horribly and young? And since both birth control and death control can be found to varying degrees in all societies, isn’t it simply a matter of upon which of the two more emphasis is placed?

    These may be uncomfortable questions, but the reality of Africa’s present situation in particular, and our own present and future situation in general, demands that they be contemplated and answered before an irretriveable tipping point is breached.

  153. “Accordingly, he must add the caveat that “When considering any presidential hopeful’s foreign-policy promises, it’s important to remember that what candidates say is, at best, an imperfect guide to their actions in office.””

    Didn’t Dubya promise no nation building? Whats the delivery on that?

  154. at least O is making strategy

    No, he has a slogan. Read Ackerman’s article and tell me what anyone is proposing the US do to promote dignity. There is no “there” there, which is why most of the piece is simply profiling O’s advisers.

  155. Didn’t Dubya promise no nation building? Whats the delivery on that?

    The delivery date on that was delayed when Islamic terrorists staged the biggest terror attack on US soil in history. We ended up going to war — and when we do that, we do rebuilding, because we learned that doing the opposite after WWI led to WWII. Or some of us learned that, anyway.

  156. have any of u seen Serenity?
    when River is asked….why do they hate us…she answers….because we meddle.
    oh our intentions are good…Operation Ajax, Viet Nam, Israel, Iraq, xian missionaries, Tmj’s avowal….all noble.
    but all meddling.

    so dont expect gratitude.
    it aint gonna happen.
    if anything, it makes them hate us more.

  157. Increasing the chances of survival into adulthood means that we must provide for them the tools of having sex without consequence via condoms and abortion.

    No, we are morally required to provide those things because we were kind enough to help them live in the first place. Fascinatingly, the only way we can make up for our moral actions is by ensuring we provide immoral counterweights.

  158. I think this whole dignity program sounds a lot like meddling.

    I think more than meddling what makes people like that upset is that we don’t just fix things. Kind of like the kid that just wants the pony. Well, daddy can’t buy a pony for all the people in the world.

  159. Salamantis!
    u survived the massacre?
    i was a mathematikoi in that life.

  160. Republicans in general just plain hate educators and have been trying to dumb-down education to save on property taxes

    Just making shit up as you go along, huh? You really are a piece of shit work.

  161. No, we are morally required to provide those things because we were kind enough to help them live in the first place. Fascinatingly, the only way we can make up for our moral actions is by ensuring we provide immoral counterweights.

    omg.
    what an asshole.

  162. The delivery date on that was delayed when Islamic terrorists staged the biggest terror attack on US soil in history.

    My guess, too, is that Bush wasn’t really privvy to the intelligence from the admin so he had ideas that got derailed by the real world. Kind of like what I think is going to happen to Barack and Iraq and the whole concept of “politics of fear”.

  163. omg.
    what an asshole.

    I sum up your argument and it makes me the asshole? Screw you nishi, I’m done with you.

  164. “small family size is the highest positive correlate with SES.”
    …in the United States.

    You trying to push our culture on someone else now?

  165. “Comment by nishizonoshinji on 3/25 @ 11:05 am #

    but i unnerstand family planning is against ur religion.”

    You understand nothing.

  166. Nishi isn’t making an argument so much as amassing an army of strawmen.

    Really, it’s been quite a while since I’ve seen such a marathon of flat-out making shit up.

    I advise: DNFTFT.

  167. edu guy….
    “kind enough to help them live in the first place”
    can u even unnerstand why that is so awful to say?

  168. so dont expect gratitude.
    it aint gonna happen.
    if anything, it makes them hate us more.

    Ok, now this attitude is only slightly more immature than taking morality cues from a movie. I mean, gosh, I liked “Serenity”, but mostly because Nathan Fillon is hot.

    I know, I know we (mostly) don’t get gratitude for helping people out. Because they are like little children who couldn’t solve their problems in the first place.

  169. So nishidiot wants to kill her some brown people, and we are the racists?

  170. #Comment by nishizonoshinji on 3/25 @ 11:57 am #

    Can you understand what an amoral asshole you are?

  171. EG – In the nishidiot’s world, it is more humane to let them starve to death, get massacred, or die from any multitude of diseases.

  172. Who is this they that hate us anyway?
    All of Africa? Oh, I don’t think so. Are there a lot of terrorists being bred in Ghana?

  173. I know, I know we (mostly) don’t get gratitude for helping people out. Because they are like little children who couldn’t solve their problems in the first place.

    omgomgomg.
    and u dont even see the condescension.

  174. that is why we need dignity.
    acuz of u assholes.

  175. It certainly is NOT condescension. Many African nations are GRATEFUL for our help. Many countries around the world feel similarly. But some, want our money, take it, and hate us- like a child or a petulant teen. I got an idea – you hate us? Don’t take our aid. Don’t ask for our help.

    “Dignity” is nothing but a word, nishi. Only fools accept it as a policy. It is about as empty, as a plan, as all the hope and change.

  176. Nishi,

    I think you misspelled something. You appear to have been “trying” to “type” ‘Gomg Gomg Gomg” and missed a G at the beginning. I’m not really sure what this “Gomg” is, but you seem to have a thing for it, so I thought I might want to point it out for you.

    BRD

  177. BRD
    ekshually it was zmog zmog zmog
    the realms are up
    l8r dayz

  178. Lookie here, people:

    Nishi has repeatedly described herself as a “griefer”.

    Here’s what a griefer is:

    A griefer is a slang term used to describe a player in a multiplayer video game who plays the game simply to cause grief to other players through harassment. Griefing is a malignant form of emergent gameplay.

    In other words, nishi has been telling us outright that she’s a troll for…well, for a long time. And yet, we elect to continue feeding her as if she’s human. Her objectives are not to have a discussion, but to bother. Her objectives are not to understand, or to cause others to understand, but to annoy.

    Please, don’t feed the troll. That is all.

  179. I feel an all caps moment coming on.

    Is it safe to assume that the nishidiot is actively in favor of genocide in Africa now?

  180. Wow. Just wow.

  181. Guys, don’t feed the new TTP; especially not one whose plan for problem populations is spelled T-r-e-b-l-i-n-k-a.

  182. “My guess, too, is that Bush wasn’t really privvy to the intelligence from the admin so he had ideas that got derailed by the real world.”

    I thought the discussion of failed states and what a good idea it was to prevent them was pretty open. Though maybe his out is that he meant us rebuilding states that we werent responsible for blowing up. Me? I just like the fact that its being done by the people who didn’t see a need to study it.

  183. And here I thought I enjoyed South African wines on their merits. Now, it’s because I’m trying to oppress them.

    Or am I just totally lost, again?

  184. Techie – I think you are alright. The fundamental underlying point is that if you provide assistance for droughts and disease, you must either kill babies, or allow genocide to cull the herd.

  185. I wonder if nishi favors cannibalism?

  186. N.O’Brain – Racist

  187. heh
    im not just a troll….ima supertroll.
    i was a guestblogger here.
    im the new evolutionary stage of harrassment in Known Blogspace.

    i taste ur gutless ignorance and cowardice…i drink ur fear.
    and its delicious.

  188. Nishi’s still here because the realms aren’t up yet. There’s been a delay. It’ll be gone in another hour or so.

    Also as someone who deals with the age group; based on her typing style, Nishi is an 8th grader texting from the back of the classroom when the teacher’s not looking.

  189. I think the only appropriate responses to any nishi post should be taken from this list:

    nishi, you’re stupid.
    nishi, shut up.
    nishi, go away, the adults are talking.

    Nothing more. Don’t try to engage her; she doesn’t value PW and the stimulating discussions held here, she’s just trying to piss people off.

  190. “i taste ur gutless ignorance and cowardice…i drink ur fear.
    and its delicious.”

    Nobody fears a clown.

    Especially an illiterate one.

  191. Andyou didn’t answer my question, nihi:

    Do you favor cannibalism to solve the “overpopulation” problem in Africa?

  192. N.O’Brain

    Nobody fears a clown.

    I do. A lot.

  193. Is it just me, or is it phenomenally hard to wrap one’s head around the idea of fearing something that cannot reliably master the technology of the shift key?

  194. “Andyou didn’t answer my question, nihi:”

    Underlying assumption: the answer, if it ever shows up, will signify something real.

    Oops.

  195. The troll is so devoted to trolling that it will freely admit to being a troll. Because that allows it to lay claim to yet another absurdity, and to suck you all in to an argument over how it is NOT such a great troll.

    Stop. Please, stop. Nishi may or may not be an idiot; that’s completely beside the point. Nishi’s function is not to win the discussion, but to troll you. That’s all there is: the trolling. The topic of the thread, the various digressions, the accusations, all of that is part of the trolling. You’re arguing with someone who has no goals other than to continue the argument.

    So, quit. Even if she argued back first. You’re not going to win, because your idea of “win” and hers are completely perpendicular.

  196. #Comment by Slartibartfast on 3/25 @ 1:27 pm #

    I know, but sometimes it’s just so much fun to beat up on the fucktards.

  197. Nishi’ll most likely be gone now. Realms back up.

  198. …but that’s what she wants. She’s an attention whore.

  199. “Look at why the baddies win these elections,” [booted ex-adviser Samantha] Power says. “It’s because [populations are] living in climates of fear.” U.S. policy, she continues, should be “about meeting people where they’re at. Their fears of going hungry, or of the thug on the street. That’s the swamp that needs draining. If we’re to compete with extremism, we have to be able to provide these things that we’re not [providing].”

    Really, what Baracky wants to do is to pay people not to kill us is all. But they are just as capable of raising the bar on the climate of fear as conditions improve as, say, NPR is. But Palestinians have been welfare cases extraordinaire their entire miserable rat-fucked lives, generations really, and they’re still very splodey.

  200. IGNORE THE SUPER SECRET MEGA GRAMMER CHALLENGED TYPING TELEPHONE POLE!!!!

    Major John is going to return and kick our ever lovin’ asses for continuing to engage teh SSMGCTTP.

  201. Paying people not to kill you is stoopid. It’s even dumber if you tell them how this is supposed to work I think. Danegeld shoudln’t be a word I don’t think but for real it is. You can look it up. I mean, in 200 comments no one thought to offer someone some moneys not to comment, so I think peoples here have the no danegeld think a lot internalized, but not Baracky.

  202. India is the future, MayBee. They and us is why the world has very bright prospects I think. Indians are fired up and ready to go. They’re so far ahead of anything Baracky is contemplating I don’t think they’ll really notice he’s there.

    True, and ha!
    I do hope someone in Barack’s camp has told him you can’t be all things to all countries.
    Like Japan doesn’t like it when we’re too nice to China and stuff like that. We do have allies that like us a lot, even in Africa. People that have treated us well and like us actually deserve to be rewarded for it.

  203. An inextricable part of that doctrine is a relentless and thorough destruction of al-Qaeda. Is this hawkish? Is this dovish? It’s both and neither — an overhaul not just of our foreign policy but of how we think about foreign policy.

    Did I mention how much I, and MayBee, dislike people who talk like this?

  204. Trolling is disastrous for “Dolphins”. Okay, so people think dolphins are the same as porpoises… whatever. Point is trolling is bad for them and we can see that because they get caught all in nest and stuff. And it’s not just the Japanese who engage in trolling either. My nephew, who also attends TUCC, sez that he trolls behind his canoe from time to time. He says you have to put trolling in context to make it ok, but I don’t really get that… because if you troll that makes you a Flipper-hater… of the hatiest order. and I am not down with that, context or not. No Dolphins for Trolls! Say No to Flipper Killers!

  205. That may be the single most genocidally ignorant statement I have ever read.

    Well, nishi is a Muslim.

  206. Slart –

    …but that’s what she wants. She’s an attention whore.

    erm… I think, judging from the image, you give Nishi “the Himalayan Snowbeast” too much credit… because of teh thighs.

  207. The one thing that I do find potentially interesting to Obama’s suggestion is the similarities and differences with the Marshall Plan and the Vietnam War Hearts and Minds Campaign. I am somewhat surprised that these precedents haven’t been mentioned in the discussion that much.

  208. I’m going to be a missionary to Europe! That’s right Europe! You know why? Huh? HUH???? Because they got it goin’ on when it comes to that birth control, family planning thing! I can proselytize without any global population guilt!

    Except for those Muslim immigrants, of course. That’s OK, I’m staying far away from them! I’m calling my Paris mission Bibles and Baguettes.

    Bonjour ya cheese eatin’ surrender monkees!

  209. I find that supporters of the war are cherry-picking their facts while general polls such as the one saying it’s okay to shoot at Americans (another one in the 80 percent range) are more scientific.

    In other words, “the ones I agree with are better, the ones I don’t are cherry-picked”.

  210. NishiishiN – Have a fine trip and may the Profit (goats pee in his shoe) keep you wrapped in a personal explosive device set to explode in a crowded mall full of infidels.

  211. additionally, may your betrothed beat you to only within an inch of your life using the nearest fireplace accoutrement of doom… and treat you only slightly worse than the the goat that peed in the Profit’s shoe (Allah crap on his head ‘an all).

  212. Have a lovely trip Nishi. Mmmmm Paris. Fun times.

  213. knock-knock

  214. I’ll bite… who’s there?

  215. u r evul, ench whit gy, i’m gon to b a xtian misoneri spi an sho u teh xtian darkns n anti scienc pops grwth:-/

    all gt bagets

  216. an alla piees in prpht’s sho, nt gote, lol

  217. all ur stoopid r belong 2 nishi

  218. I’ll bite… who’s there?

    Boobs…

  219. O, ench whit gy, i has no sweets gy cause my thi’s to mch lik greek buldng colums, lol

  220. Boobs…

    LOL, oh won’t my husband be happy.

  221. nishi, you clever bastard. Now I know you’re a smart Mormon 19 y.o. boy from Brigham City, Utah going on his church mission to convert the gentiles of evil Europe just like Mitt Romney did. Wearing a clean white shirt, dark blue suit and all with blond short hair and blue eyes, you had ‘em all fooled. Bonzai! I hope you have a chance to deflower Suzi Creamcheese before you leave.

  222. Nishi – may an interloper from northern africa named Jamil al-mojoeater beat you over the head with a metric ruler of some sort… preferably one that resembles a high-speed train tat you failed to see.

    but in all seriousness, please make sure to buy some carbon-offset credits to make amends for your transatlantic flight, which will no doubt tear a good swatch from the fabric of the atmosphere.. what while all the dribble you will no doubt be spilling all over the poor souls that are forced to sit next to you.

  223. o ench whte gy, lol, globl wrmng is teh crap! peples wil kyl planit b4 co2 n hageeeeeeeeeeeee wil bom iran n strt wwIIIiiiii. my felo muslms to hi on mystc caml dng to b splodydops

    barckykeep me wrm wit hs hopey chnge and soft hnds ROWWWWRRRR. :-{

  224. lessdatadav; momons teh cultee n not xtians lik they say. ise blck haar n thi’s like shaq. jest spi on misoneries to see xtian’s kil scienc n populashun whil stim cels liv!!

  225. But, no, I don’t think Baracky’s foreign policies would really be very helpful at all. I think Baracky a lot would give us a third worldy kind of image; not cause he’s brown and all, just cause his foreign policy sounds a lot like Chavez’s except without the oil. Europe and France especially I think would freak out cause their whole soft power fetish is just cause it’s explicitly designed to contrast with our approach.

  226. My proposed solution does demand an unapologetic avowal of the moral and practical superiority of representative democracy in a secular environment as a workable model for government.

    even though you’re not from Utah, (I read part of your webpage), you do justice to Beehive state where I spent a good deal of time. Our division of powers and a division of church and state with freedom of religion…and damn any religion: Christians, Jews or Muslims (and Marxists too!_) that restrict minorities or even atheists the right of individual belief.

    If I am prejudiced it’s for the ‘secular humanists’ in the free-for-all of ideologies competing for attention. So much for multiculturalism from my viewpoint.

  227. That’s it, I’m done with the nishi sock puppeting. Now I have a headache the size of Montana.

    Boobs who?

  228. Boobs who?

    erm…

    Boobs McCanns

  229. doppleganger…hey, don’t try so hard. a little less creative on the keys might just do it.

    David Brooks kinda of dashed Hillary’s chances in the nytimes…kinda like he did in Romney. Credit to Brooks for getting something right once in awhile. Maybe it’s Barack’s after all. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/25/opinion/25brooks.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

  230. ha, BJTex, I was so distracted by the boobs I forgot the follow through.

  231. ‘feets- on behalf of JD and myself, I’d like to say- I neither don’t love you, nor do I not not love you.

  232. bj, eh, sorry, maybe I was right after all…?

  233. Maggie – I know … I was terribly disappointed at the breach of etiquette… but then I realized I had no punch-line… so, I was hoping it would just go unnoticed like a comment about a “Typical White Person” made by a certain candidato.

  234. don’t forget Indiana gets to vote on Obama too same as PA. yikes Maybee and JD doing the Democratic thing in the Primaries??? They’ll have triplets!

  235. data2dave – Indians aren’t allowed to vote.

  236. Well, I’m pretty sure they don’t allow JD to vote. They keep armed midget clowns at the poll places to ward him away.

    Because of Kyoto … and Blackwater … but not Haliburton…

  237. since u were instrumental in causing this mess, watchu gonna do about it?
    other than critique O?

    I say we sell the extras to the Muslims, might make up for that whole DPW thing.

  238. Smarter to pay them to kill other people.

    well, duh.

  239. i taste ur gutless ignorance and cowardice…i drink ur fear.
    and its delicious.

    I try to ignore her, but when she says shit like this it’s like dangling a bit of yarn in front of a cat to me. She is just kind of fun to bat around if nothing else is going on.

  240. 149, Karl. Reagan really whooped the Evil Empire all by himself? Don’t think so. But I did read your premise. Carter/Brez. in fact started it with their Islamic rebellion support in Afghanistan. And containment under mostly Democratic Congresses and more liberal Republican administrations already did the trick…But by the time Reagan came around the USSR was screaming for peace and detent. Reagan only caused the Blowback that has caused us headaches ever since. Balkanization of the ‘stans, Islamic terror, latin American hatred towards death squad regimes that Reagan supported. Huge deficits and another question? Are we better off with rampant nationalism and corruption spreading out from the fall of the USSR. And we made China (Communist btw) stronger. So where’s the peace dividend?

  241. I want what your drinking Enoch, but I have to be nice today. Last day off of my Reservation.

  242. yikes Maybee and JD doing the Democratic thing in the Primaries??? They’ll have triplets!

    ¿Que?

  243. I try to ignore her, but when she says shit like this it’s like dangling a bit of yarn in front of a cat to me. She is just kind of fun to bat around if nothing else is going on.

    Just mock instead of engaging.

  244. just smile and nod Maybee, smile and nod.

  245. data2dave

    “Our division of powers and a division of church and state with freedom of religion…and damn any religion: Christians, Jews or Muslims (and Marxists too!_) that restrict minorities or even atheists the right of individual belief.

    Sir, I agree with you. And sooth, Utah reality is become much different than I thought it would be since we arrived here in 92. Sadly, our latest governor’s legislature’s products have gone a long, long way toward taking us off any honest observer’s “conservative states” list.

    Further, you say:

    “If I am prejudiced it’s for the ’secular humanists’ in the free-for-all of ideologies competing for attention. So much for multiculturalism from my viewpoint.

    Agree, too, in spades. Nothing wrong with “secular humanism”… until people attempt to forget that choices bear consequences.

  246. BUT this-

    Reagan only caused the Blowback that has caused us headaches ever since.

    sounds like rumbles from the back of Spicoli’s microbus.

  247. d2d,

    Written exactly like a Lefty who wasn’t there or whose youth and/or drug intake has seriously warped their recall of the decade of the 1980s. And had you read the Politburo diaries — self-serving as they are — it’s pretty clear that Gorbachev encountered internal resistance on all fronts even in the late 1980s.

  248. “Comment by data2dave on 3/25 @ 3:27 pm #

    149, Karl. Reagan really whooped the Evil Empire all by himself?”

    He had help from the Pope and Maggie Thatcher.

    But it was mostly Reagan.

  249. THE OBAMA DOCTRINE – SAME SONG STILL REMAINS THE SAME

    Admittedly there is a risk in any course we follow other than this, but every lesson in history tells us that the greater risk lies in appeasement, and this is the specter our well-meaning liberal friends refuse to face–that their policy of accommodation is appeasement, and it gives no choice between peace and war, only between fight and surrender. If we continue to accommodate, continue to back and retreat, eventually we have to face the final demand–the ultimatum.

    And what then?

    When Nikita Khrushchev has told his people he knows what our answer will be? He has told them that we are retreating under the pressure of the Cold War, and someday when the time comes to deliver the ultimatum, our surrender will be voluntary because by that time we will have weakened from within spiritually, morally, and economically.

    He “Nikita Khrushchev” believes this because from our side he has heard voices pleading for “peace at any price” or “better Red than dead,” or as one commentator put it, he would rather “live on his knees than die on his feet.” And therein lies the road to war, because those voices don’t speak for the rest of us. You and I know and do not believe that life is so dear and peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery.

    If nothing in life is worth dying for, when did this begin–just in the face of this enemy? Or should Moses have told the children of Israel to live in slavery under the pharaohs? Should Christ have refused the cross? Should the patriots at Concord Bridge have thrown down their guns and refused to fire the shot heard ’round the world? The martyrs of history were not fools, and our honored dead who gave their lives to stop the advance of the Nazis didn’t die in vain. Where, then, is the road to peace? Well, it’s a simple answer after all.

    You and I have the courage to say to our enemies,
    There is a price we will not pay.
    There is a point beyond which they must not advance.

    We are at war with the most dangerous enemy that has ever faced mankind in his long climb from the swamp to the stars, and it has been said if we lose that war, in doing so, we shall lose all freedom everywhere, and history will record with the greatest astonishment “that those who had the most to lose did the least to prevent its happening.” Well, I think it’s time we ask ourselves if we still know the freedoms that were intended for us by the Founding Fathers.

    Ronald Reagan October 27 1964

  250. “Balkanization of the ’stans”

    my wife, whose family hails from the Polish Corridor, takes great exception to this remark! “They should’ve just left the Stans alone,” she comments. Adding, “I am sick and tired of people trying to split us Polish-Americans in two! Unless of course you use a hyphen… in which case…”

    which has the makings of a decent riddle, re: teh black peeps

  251. You’re not going to win, because your idea of “win” and hers are completely perpendicular.

    Her idea of “winning” is when Daddy finally gets so annoyed at the whining that he busts her in the mouth.

    She needs therapy, not enabling.

  252. Banning nishi would significantly improve these comment threads.

    He/she/it is breathtakingly idiotic.

  253. BJ – You were killing me with the doppelganger thing. Brilliant.

    dd – You are a tool, a dull rusty tool. I will vote for none of the above in the primaries. Due to the demonic midget clown poll workers.

    MayBee – We are reproducing? Next time we go and do that, at least do me the courteousy of waking me up so I can enjoy it.

    BOOBS !!!

  254. Have I missed it or did Nish ever lay claim to being a eugenicist before today?

  255. @ #48

    Long time reader here with a question–is Nishi a sockpuppet/sounding board, or an actual poster?

    Apparently she’s an actual poster, iron.

    Of course, I wouldn’t bet against her being a Coke bottle hung up on some blinds, randomly hitting a Morse Code key. Just like inOn the Beach.

  256. To any of you that venture here from instapundit, we apologize for the nishidiot. They ran out of lithium and straight-jackets in CO.

  257. Me too, MayBee. Also I think this discussion makes me want to double down on Richardson as Obama’s veep. Baracky’s foreign policy fluffyness is gonna be stark when he’s standing next to John.

  258. I find it funny that people still engage dave. Just skip along the loon’s posts. Really, has he ever typed anything “truly” engaging or even interesting? The guy needs friends. Friends with medications. At least nishi, every great once in a while, says provocative things. Like a teenager, but at least they’re provocative.

  259. I’ll sooner engage nishtoon than dogmadave. I don’t know exactly why — maybe for the same reason Urkel became more popular than any of the other kids on that show he was on.

  260. happyfeet, I’m really not sure that Richardson’s gonna help. particularly when this clip always comes to mind when I hear about his “foreign policy experience”.

  261. ack. That looks kind of early-onset alzheimery really. And also he’s a lot amoral. And has the bearing of like a high school vice principal. He really should be Baracky’s pick I think.

  262. last night, Leno said Richardson looked like this guy

  263. Stefano now has control over Hope… it says. Wheels within wheels.

  264. I think that’s old, happyfeet. unless they’re recycling a plot from many years ago…. RTO would know.

  265. That’s a measure of his commitment to the study of history I think. Ok I’m giggling.

  266. oh, I tease him about it too. ages ago we used to record Days for my sister *ahem* anyhoo, it was the whole mind control thing that got him hooked (or so he says). and ever so often he’ll say something about what’s been happening, though the last time I asked he said he hadn’t followed it in a while. deployments will do that I guess.

  267. I watched one summer when I was little. I tried to remember the name of the actress that played Billy’s girlfriend the other day and … here it is Melissa Reeves … she was Jennifer Horton. She had a grandmother if I remember right. But … there’s really nothing remarkable about her it seems. I hope she saved her monies really.

  268. Comment by Karl on 3/25 @ 3:42 pm #

    d2d,

    Written exactly like a Lefty who wasn’t there or whose youth and/or drug intake has seriously warped their recall of the decade of the 1980s. And had you read the Politburo diaries — self-serving as they are — it’s pretty clear that Gorbachev encountered internal resistance on all fronts even in the late 1980s.

    Learn this, child echo, it doesn’t matter how many times you repeat a favorite fable you’re still only Rev. Jeremiah Wright prancing around in Noxzema make-up remover.

    “I was a unemployed physicist walking on a downtown street full of unemployed physicists.”

  269. hmmm, thor. I try not to get too nasty. But I wondered about an academic figure being around these slim pickings too.

    No offense, Karl. But at least my insignificant minor in Chinese is a bit more useful if I choose to pursue it. WE PISSED on Russia and the former USSR when they offered us the olive branch of peace. We gave ‘em maybe 4 billion and Shock Therapy. It turned most of Russia against us. Don’t lecture me on the ’80s as I didn’t do drugs then and was part of the ‘liberal-left’ crowd forced into manual labor just to survive by ol’ RightWing Dictator Reagan who gave us creeps like James Watts for Sec. of the Interior while purging the govt. of ‘enviros’ and liberals and he gave us much higher taxes on working people (social security taxes went up amazingly under Reagan…with three recesssions in a row.)

    Occupationally, in fact maybe Taiwan is beckoning, my teacher friend and I. But Russia? What’s beckoning there? They took the US’s poison pill and their average longevity went down ten years. As for working in Asia, I am not sure I’d endure the environmental devastation that’s around Mainland China at the moment although the Chicoms are actually making vastly faster improvements than the US in pollution reduction of late…probably due to the greater pollution that’s easier to fix than the more ‘background’ types found in the US…such as what is killing our bats?:

    Note: that our bat populations are declining vastly of late….(probably due to spraying against West Nile virus…a minor disease that the ‘cure’ is maybe worst than the disease…no bats, many more misquitoes, but scientific research is still trying to figure out what’s killing and spreading a devastating plague. Thanks fear-mongers!)

    Back to Reagan, Karl, ‘Star War’s’ boondogle was just a huge money-making expenditure for Reagan’s patrons (GE et al) against a boogie man that didn’t exist. Plus, the missile defense shield never worked and isn’t protection against ‘terrorist’ suitcase types of nucs. The USSR was a ‘conservative’ marxist regime that long knew they couldn’t take on the USA directly but at least had a good grip on it’s nucs. and Islamic terrorists within it’s borders. Now what do we have: Putin? Thank you very much, Karl. They still have the nucs to destroy the planet but they are actually less friendly now than before.

    OI sockpuppet? Otherwise, O.I. has nothing to offer but bs. No difference between some others who write here. Personality-less. Seems like a clone of Jeff w/o the creativity and maybe less of the whining. I note the king of sock puppets seems to be Brian O’Nolan, recommended by Dan Collins, before the term sock puppet existed.

    Maybee, just kidding but I wondered if JD recruited his wife to play here. You and he seem most compatible.

  270. ok fine.
    I am merely pointing out that a half century of aid programs targetting population surviveability in Africa without EVER considering the the parallel obligation of birth control education is somewhat irresponsible. I personally think GW should have been handing out condoms and birth control pills along with the mosquito nets.
    The result of our meddling is triple digit population growth in Africa.
    Like the article says, this will result in a large deme of un or under employed young men.
    I have said before, that suicidebombers are basically like the microsoft geek that whacks the cute girl from HR that wouldn’t date him and takes out a dozen of her coworkers just for emphasis.
    Islam is just the clothing…..the West is the chick that dissed them.
    So as feets said, we have a deme, a sub-population of young men just coming of age, ripe for exploitation by whatever radical ideology pushes their buttons.
    What ideology will appeal to them? Jihaadi brand islam is far more likely to appeal to young men than xianity. They would likely see jesus as a pussy that got his ass whupped. Young men like to play with toy guns, like to play warlike games. Its in the genes, from the EEA when the tribe with the best fighters was the tribe that reproduced.
    So the West is very largely responsible for creating this situ.

    What do we do about it?
    O is proposing ONE strategy. It may not be cost-viable.
    But got nuthin coming out of you lot.
    You wont even accept partial responsibilty and prefer to brand me as a genocidal nazi.

  271. You wont even accept partial responsibilty and prefer to brand me as a genocidal nazi.

    We should have just let them die from starvation and disease. Or teach them how to kill babies.

  272. exactly JD.
    we meddled.
    and now we will pay.

  273. just because out intentions were noble, doesnt mean the chickens arent coming home.
    we bred those chickens.

  274. I am merely pointing out that a half century of aid programs targetting population surviveability in Africa without EVER considering the the parallel obligation of birth control education is somewhat irresponsible.

    Do you honestly believe that the totality of western aid to Africa NEVER included any efforts at birth control? You honestly believe that fundamental Christians are the only people doing missionary/aid work? That all Christians are opposed to condom use?

    I knew a social worker in appalachia in the 70s who was trying to promote condom use for her welfare hillbillies. One mother of about a half dozen or so seemed very excited at the prospect, and eagerly took a box, so my friend was surprised when the woman turned pregnant again a few weeks later. When she asked the woman what happened, she was told the husband wouldn’t use them because the kids made fun of him. Giving tribal Africans condoms might have the same result, I would imagine.

  275. I just want to point out that dave has absolutely no clue about the USSR, but does apparently have issues with the Reagan administration and nishi still thinks that if you help someone you get to own them.

    In nishi’s case I think it may have to do with the fact that she can so clearly see what has become of the food she “helped” and how she has come to “own it” at various parts of her body (eg her thighs), and so she is simply applying that learning to a somewhat similar topic. It’s cute in a “kids are sometimes damn near retarded” kind of way.

    As for dave, he is probably lying about the drug use and in any case seems to have spent the 80′s ignoring the actual words and actions of the USSR in favor of railing against his daddy issues played out in the Reagan administration. That mean ‘ol James Watt and his envirogoons being clearly more dangerous to his fragile psyche then multiple armored divisions in Afghanistan and walls to keep people in Eastern Europe.

    You could parody these things, but it’s nice you don’t have to. It’s a real timesaver to be able to just point and laugh.

  276. ok fine.
    I am merely pointing out that a half century yaddayaddayadda illiterate rant yadda

    What part of “We’re not your Daddy” didn’t you understand?

  277. suicidebombers are basically like the microsoft geek that whacks the cute girl from HR that wouldn’t date him and takes out a dozen of her coworkers just for emphasis.
    Islam is just the clothing…..the West is the chick that dissed them.

    nishi, everytime I think you’ve hit a moral bottom, you find new levels. There is no moral justification WHATSOEVER for Islamo-fascist splodeydopes.

  278. ok, edu guy. whatever. But I mentioned the fact that personal attacks w-e are pretty much the only defense the conserva-wacks have against arguments I’ve put forward. So in kind, since I’ve mentioned the over-Administration of education in USA, what side are you on, buddy? one of the Adminstration non-performers no doubt.

    David Brooks always mentions how expensive US education is…but neglects that Authoritarianism in the form of Over Abundance of Adminstrative aids, principles, consultants are the reason US education is so expensive. like our fraud of a health care system.

    Education is America is sabotaged by those dimwits in the front office who disparage the work of teaching and kowtow to the local school boards full of farmers and petite bs’ers, and lawyers aplenty. U know in Japan and Europe, Headmasters are experienced teachers who run things there with progressive governance at the political level…not Chamber of Commerce types out to keep the ‘workers’ subservient and obedient…and “no child left behind” keeping quality down (with the help of Democrat leaders kissing Reagan’s ghost) which has hurt morale and teachers across the country. I am guessing..but Administration is what you’re into. I might not speak Russian but like I said know Russians and they don’t think America was helpful in bringing down the USSR and don’t think much of Ukrainian or other ‘stan’s leadership at the moment. Kazakhstan is our model of the future of Asia? Yeah, blow it out u’re arse if you even know where Kazakhstan is? Edu guy? right? Almaty? With your 3 credit hours of learning cateloguing of children’s books and 5 credit hours for going to a conference on the weekend. Yupp.

    Hint for former question above: K’stan: The most successfull of all the ‘stans even though population has declined (due partly to ethnic cleansing of Russians) but also as it retained it’s communist leadership that with market reforms denies true democratic opposition but as a result is growing well-off with its rich resources and Citigroup connections…like China. Seems like Karl’s antiSoviet rants have nothing to do with reality and Reagan was always a fraud causing huge deficits for arms manufacturers for arms that never worked. Reagan put a Ayn Rand accolyte in charge of the Fed Reserve and now we’re paying the price. But Central Asia’s doing fine w/o US. With their Turkish warlike ways and nuclear warheads we could pay the dividend of a breakup of the USSR in a big way. Again way to go, Karl and the Reaganauts who lost the world’s respect with our declining dollar and bankrupt (shadow) banking system

    Obama will do better if he gets passed the RightWing smear machine.

  279. Education Guy – Ask, and you shall receive. A literal treasure trove of gobbledygook.

  280. B Moes, my parents and grandparents have funded the Marynoll missionaries for decades.
    they dont mention condoms. ever.
    the Pope wouldnt let african catholics use condoms in the face of an AIDS epidemic.
    like i said, GW should have given out mosquito nets AND condoms.
    praps there was some desultory halfassed attempt….but it sure wasnt a priority.
    and im not talkin about just fundie xian groups.
    the whole Western initiative in Africa is focused on feelgood programs for surviveabilty, especially of children.
    like we cared fuckall wat those kids would do when they grew up.

    kinda like kittens.

  281. and now they are gonna grow up.
    if u think they are gonna be grateful to the West for enabling them to live, man are u delusional.

  282. darleen, that is not a moral justification.
    it is a sociobiological justification. biology has no morals.
    and it is the truth.

    the suicide bombers shape their culture accordin to their needs.
    they need revenge for percieved humiliation, they need “respect”, they need to play with guns…..w/e.
    fundie millenialist islam fulfills those needs.

  283. ok, edu guy. whatever. But I mentioned the fact that personal attacks w-e are pretty much the only defense the conserva-wacks have against arguments I’ve put forward.

    The part that really makes me laugh is that you probably actually believe you put forth arguments. Instead what you have done is put forth your personal feelings on the issue, which is not the same.

  284. the columbine killahs were much the same.
    and they werent muslim.
    they were gettin revenge on a culture that had dissed them, humiliated them in their perception.
    bullied syndrome.

  285. like i said, chickens all the way down.

  286. darleen, that is not a moral justification.
    it is a sociobiological justification. biology has no morals.
    and it is the truth.

    No nishi, you are the one with no morals. Science at least has ethics (even Bioethics)but that would be something beyond the pale for you.

  287. dude, you didn’t answer the question. So your argument’s inoperative. What side are you one, boy?
    Don’t call yourself education guy if you’re so against education. Educate us!

    not one worthy thought from you so far. Laugh all you want, while collecting your dole at “work” wanking at whatever. Retired? so young! get a job.

  288. Education Guy – Ask, and you shall receive. A literal treasure trove of gobbledygook.

    The cool part is that I don’t have to understand any of it. I can tell by the number of questions asked and the number of times my name is mentioned that I have failed some benchmark which has been set for me.

    The happy part is that I know dave wasn’t forced into labor of any sort even if he doesn’t know it himself. I also know that the cold war was won by the actions of Reagan, and the USSR was not going to merely fall apart without him.

    The one nice thing about dave is that you know, without expending any effort, that all evil in the world stems from the actions of right wing Americans which is only kept in check by the fearless actions of the left in America. Every other thing to be discussed must pass through that filter.

  289. onion…”on” gotta go to work. spelling’s not that important. k before h, k before h.

  290. See how he is trying to trap me into some distraction. You and I know his trap is just a bag of flaming dog shit left on my front porch, but to dave it is the rhetorical equivalent of E=MC2.

    It’s too bad we can’t give out treats in these comment boxes, because dave deserves a biscuit for the effort.

  291. utterly simplistic bs. btw. What about Carter’s support of the mullahs of Afghanistan. He gets no credit for toppleing the USSR? You have an ideological lens that only accepts Republican dogma. Now Reagan trading with the Iranians..oh that’s not worthy of notice.

    We didn’t have to defeat the USSR as really they were never that much of an enemy like Prescott Bush’s Nazi friends.

  292. darleen, are u really that dumb?
    u shud be listenin to mccains speech where he says scholarships are more important than smartbombs.
    it is not the “threat of radical extemist islam” but the threat of young males vulnerable to exploitation by “radical extremist islam.”

    again, a fertilized egg is not a human.
    a fertilized egg is the fusion of 2 haploid gamtes.
    it is not sentient, it has no nervous system, it cannot feel pain or think.
    it cannot sleep, it cannot dream, it is insensate.
    no scientist believes that a fertilized egg is a human being.
    we are not experimenting on humans.

  293. I think I answered the question for you as you’re utterly unable to be honest and accept that you’re an ideologue, and not much use to society as an Education Guy.

    I awaited to be “educated” long enough. Gotta go to work.

  294. We didn’t have to defeat the USSR as really they were never that much of an enemy..

    This is your anchor dave. This is what all your arguments are centered around, and it is what makes it so easy to laugh at you. The USSR was not really an enemy, but Reagan (the fraud) was.

    Sorry buddy, yer just a joke.

  295. nishi, trust me. She is.

  296. gsmetes

    and i suppose i shud include young females…but there are relatively few female suicide bombers, and it is useually debatable that they were functioning autonomously, or in full capacity.

  297. well, truth is in the pudding.
    how many people did we lose defeating the USSR? Except for our own aggression in Vietnam and Korea and even counting those…not much (maybe 100K dead but only by our aggression in other countries and in ‘wars’ undeclared_). Apparently by that comparison we’ve got to worry about southern White Conservatives more than anyone (600k Lost in Civil War), But Rightwingers (Nazi’s) next…(450K lost w/ Japan allies included). Seems the big bad Soviet wolf was a pussy cat compared. We owe the Russians for helping defeat the Nazis and yet we gave them no Marshall Plan…just a kick in the teeth. )

    Thanks Education Guy, You’re so smart. I’ve learned so much! adios this time… maybe in Speculator, NY I’ll check in at PW to get ‘educated’ on my trip back to VT.

  298. It won’t work dave, because you don’t try to assimilate facts that don’t agree with your worldview. Maybe if you choose to grow up someday. But not now.

  299. at least O recognizes theres a problem a-comin.
    “dignity” might not be a costviable solution.
    but i think its better than buryin ur heads in the sand an denying all responsibility.

  300. its chickens, chickens all the way down.

  301. if you stare at one of d2d’s comments with your eyes out of focus long enough, the 3D image of Alfred E. Newman pops right out from the page

  302. look darleen.
    I’m going to hell.
    via the great signal aggregator of know blogspace, the legendary dr. yes.

    are u happy now?

    or at least purgatory….where all my biotech and science sins will be loaded into giant backpack where i walk around a fulminaring pit OF HELLFIRE for all eternity.

  303. fulminating
    zmog!

  304. Comment by data2dave on 3/26 @ 5:54 am #

    hmmm, thor. I try not to get too nasty. But I wondered about an academic figure being around these slim pickings too.

    No offense, Karl. But at least my insignificant minor in Chinese is a bit more useful if I choose to pursue it. WE PISSED on Russia and the former USSR when they offered us the olive branch of peace. We gave ‘em maybe 4 billion and Shock Therapy. It turned most of Russia against us. Don’t lecture me on the ’80s as I didn’t do drugs then and was part of the ‘liberal-left’ crowd forced into manual labor just to survive by ol’ RightWing Dictator Reagan who gave us creeps like James Watts for Sec. of the Interior while purging the govt. of ‘enviros’ and liberals and he gave us much higher taxes on working people (social security taxes went up amazingly under Reagan…with three recesssions in a row.)

    If Karl wants play the role of Ronald Reagan’s catheter bag he’s should know bumping into sharp objects risks a big messy.

    Karl, the bemused American observer of Russia, eff you, moidak, it’s not in you. The Motherland is too big; she’s just too strong.

    Limonka!

  305. B Moes, my parents and grandparents have funded the Marynoll missionaries for decades.
    they dont mention condoms. ever.
    the Pope wouldnt let african catholics use condoms in the face of an AIDS epidemic.
    like i said, GW should have given out mosquito nets AND condoms.
    praps there was some desultory halfassed attempt….but it sure wasnt a priority.

    How did you arrive at that conclusion? Results aren’t always indicative of effort. You often have to overcome significant cultural barriers when implementing birth control methods, did you not notice my little anecdote?

    I knew a social worker in appalachia in the 70s who was trying to promote condom use for her welfare hillbillies. One mother of about a half dozen or so seemed very excited at the prospect, and eagerly took a box, so my friend was surprised when the woman turned pregnant again a few weeks later. When she asked the woman what happened, she was told the husband wouldn’t use them because the kids made fun of him. Giving tribal Africans condoms might have the same result, I would imagine.

    Should we have stopped funding for these families? Should we have let the children starve or die of easily curable diseases? Or should we have continued to help as best we can, until social evolution pulls them up and forward out of such grinding poverty and ignorance. Because it seems to be working, there are much less cases of this kind of poverty in the mountains today, the government has had to redefine poverty to comical levels to keep it in the news.

  306. Africa is not Appalachia.
    sry
    if there was societal resistance in Africa, all the more reason to make birth control the top priority.
    didnt ppl make regression curves?
    population growth is exponential, not linear, if there are no restrictions.
    nothing to damp the curve.
    i really hate stupidity.
    its the worst.

  307. alp….jeesh, GW’s already got the Alfred E. patent: “What Me Worry?”

    now if you compare me to that guy who was “My Favorite Martian” I might get offended…. a g/f once did.

    EG sure is smart isn’t he? I am waiting for the Data. I listen to guys like Karl and Dan…but they have something to say.

    As promised I am stopping at the internet cafe (gas station) in Speculator, NY….in the least populated county alleged in the Eastern USA. Alright, getting out of town before the local militia on 4 wheelers come a huntin’ with their snow machines on blocks…as G/W is shortening their ice fishing season…(8 hours shorter per year btw)…

    over and out, fellow Martians. (oh, bmoe, Reagan’s proxies used MaryKnoll sisters for torture practice in Central America….of course Edu Guy and Karl seem to blank on that one…)

  308. Am I the only one creeped out about how Nishi’s always going down on chickens?

  309. sry mcgeehee….i thot ud get the analogy without coaching.
    my bad.

  310. Sry, nishi….i thot ur analogy wud mak sens.

    No I didn’t. Never mind.

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