When he says he’s not gay? No. He’s bisexual, bitches!
 More though, there’s an interesting case that demonstrates the zeal that arresting officer Sgt. Karsnia displays in punishing malefactors at his airport. Fortunately, the guy he was arresting in this case was a Rethuglican Senator, or liberals might be up in arms about his role in this sad story (and squalid).
LMC has related thoughts.
Whether it is or not, I think we can all agree that his sexual preferences should not be an issue in his 08 reelection campaign.
What re-election campaign?
Doesn’t matter Dan, I think I speak for all conservatives when I say that we will not abide a “wide stance”
I have heard some therapists opining on the radio that this type of random, public encounter often stems from being abused or exploited as a child and is a psychological disorder, in which case Craig wouldn’t necessarily be considered homosexual.
“What re-election campaign?”
He’s not going to run?
I don’t believe he’s expressed his intent. Plus, so many men’s rooms, so little time, right?
That story is totally outrageous and at the same time very believable. I used to give money to the cops here in Atlanta, but I just cant bring myself to do it anymore. I mean they threw that guy on the pavement here for jay-walking, they murdered a 92 year old woman… the list goes on. When they call me up to ask for money I am sure to tell them it’s because I don’t approve of their performance these last few years.
If it wasn’t a cop in that stall there wouldn’t have been a problem. The person in the stall would have make sure the Craig knew he didn’t approve of his glancing in the stall and it would have ended with that. In all likelihood Karsnia knew what was happening from the get-go and let Craig proceed long enough that he could have a plausable reason to arrest him.
“I don’t believe he’s expressed his intent. Plus, so many men’s rooms, so little time, right?”
Way I read that press conference, nothing is going to change. But maybe you see things different. Then again, we have malkin pointing out his immigration vote and playing smear the queer, so he may not win.
And oh, yeah. That cop is a pig.
Damn!! That bicyclist story is off the chain. Is this how it is in all blue states? I’d hate to think that at some point in the future I’d have to plan my domestic travel around the behavior of the police.
Well, he’s certainly got a decision to make. And as of know, I don’t believe he’s made it, therefore there is no reelection campaign as of yet. That he might not run seems to have been a distinct possibility for quite some time. If his decision was looking for a tipping point, this looks like a pretty good one.
“Damn!! That bicyclist story is off the chain. Is this how it is in all blue states?”
According to the cops I know, airports have long been a favored place to hide fuck-ups, mostly people who vote somewhere else suffer the consequences.
“Then again, we have malkin pointing out his immigration vote and playing smear the queer, so he may not win.”
So when your side points out the hypocrisy, its Truth to Power, when the right criticizes one of their own, its Smear the Queer.
Seem to be a whole lotta dem double standards up in here.
Does it strike anyone else that the leftards seem to spend more time reading conservative pundits than actual conservatives do?
Or do they just all subscribe to Media Matters mailing lists?
OK, this guy got caught trolling a public restroom. Not what I look for in my representative. I’d advise him not to run and/or not vote for him if he did, but he’s not my rep.
Will he run?
That’s a decision he’ll have to make with this taken into consideration.
Will he be re-elected?
Frankly re-election is, if he runs, for his constituents to decide.
Personally, I’m far more concerned about the run amok cop. These types of psychopaths with guns and authority are far more dangerous.
Where I live, we had an out of control state trooper a few years back who behaved in a similar irrational fashion, conflicting commands and excessive anger and unprovoked violence, much as officer Krasnia is described to have behaved. He eventually shot a crippled man who had broke no laws. This was after several other incidents that were very similar as the incident described in the link. He was given a desk job.
Earlier we had a private airport renta-cop (before 9/11)who followed a kid in a car for over 10 miles and wound up shooting him.
Myself, I think that this cop is the far bigger story and threat to society. Far more than some desperate and pathetic restroom troller.
B Moe
My experience, too. The officers I talk to from “X” agency never talk with any respect of the subset of officers that constitute “X agency Airport Police”.
The strategic things that the bicyclist did wrong was to try and argue with an unreasonable cop (he should have not backed off from demanding a supervisor get there immediately) and when he turned and tried to leave. It just gave that cop an excuse to thump him…especially since the cop already knew he was from out of state. Rarely is anyone from out of state going to go to the trouble of legally pushing back.
If we can classify those as mistakes, it’s pretty sad. We oughtn’t have to treat them as one does a rabid rottweiler.
HALP! All posts today look like fark posts. I am feeling unwell, maybe that’s what stole my hummus. Back to bed and some Monty Python.
“Is Senator Larry Craig (R-ID) Lying?”
There’s no reason to assume he’s lying. After all, this incident happened months ago – he could be 100% hetro now. There is also the possibility that he’s only gay when he goes into an airport men’s room…or possibly in men’s rooms generally and possibly also in saunas, steam bathes or the wooded area of public parks….and in gay bars and when downloading gay porn from the internet. But my guess is that a guy doesn’t feel the least bit gay when he is standing in front of a bunch of TV cameras, spouse at his side, denying (not for the first time) that he is gay.
I love how the Retarded Telephone Pole 2 points out somebody playing “smear the queer”, when it is the Left that most consistently demonizes people for being teh ghey. They throw it around as a perjorative anytime a “R” is noted to like the Hershey Highway, and at the same time, claim some illusory moral high ground based on their tolerance.
You know what they say: “You’re only as gay as you feel.”
IF being teh ghey is genetic, and does not offer one a choice … never mind.
greencycles had accomplished his goal. Riding his little bike. Then he decides that little airport cop man’s job is to ensure that his transportation choices will be honored in perpetuity. Little airport man suddenly felt very very little. greencycles – whoops – his goal slipped through his fingers. greencycles, what he does not say, is, hey, what can I do next time to achieve a better result. greencycles is determined to have a much more difficult life than he needs to have. The little bike is a metaphor.
Thanks for the action Dan….uh, you know what I mean…
You weren’t in the Manchester, NH airport last Friday, were you?
LOL, no. Burlington.
In the Craig case, the cop played along by throwing down the signs (I moved my foot slowly up and down). Had he not done that and instead acted like any other man in a restroom, I’m betting Craig would never have escalated his actions. I don’t think the man is a danger to society, like a drunk or pain-killer addicted driving Senator (or Congressman) would be.
Maybe Craig is gay, maybe he isn’t, maybe he doesn’t want to be. Who cares how he identifies himself? I’m really bothered by people saying he should step down, what he should do is apologize to his wife and stop trolling for public anonymous sex.
If I were in the bathroom when the cop was acting the way he was, I would have been just as creeped out by him. I’m always suspicious of people hanging out in a stall too long.
It was the double Chiliburger! I swear!
Yes, I believe that Craig is gay, and I believe that we are going to see the Dems and the MSM play this the way they did the Foley story. John Cole already set the tone, wondering aloud why so so many Republicans are closeted homos, and then going on at length about his revulsion to the bathroom sex. Finally, he attacked Jeff for trying to distract from the real issue, which is the mess that is Republican gay bathroom sex.
[Doesn’t Cole claim to be a Republican? If there is some intrinsic predisposition to homosexual bathroom sex among Republicans shouldn’t he know all about it?]
This is exactly what outraged Camille Paglia about the Dem’s Foley strategy. They wanted his seat, just as they want Craig’s Senate seat now, so they worked hard to stoke the fires of public disgust over his behavior. Aside from the fact that sexual harassment and misconduct is not exactly unheard of among Democrats themselves, Paglia’s concern was that the demonization was going to harm all homosexuals, since the public was not likely to make the distinction that Republican homosexuality is bad and disgusting, and all other homosexuality is to be celebrated. She also noted that the MSM hyped the story far more than it’s news value warranted, and routinely worked the Democratic talking points into the coverage.
I linked to Paglia in the comments section of Jeff’s original [WHAM!] post on this issue.
What I can’t forgive Craig for is that business of flashing the Senate business card. We’ve already got one John “Do you know who I am?” Kerry in the Senate, and that’s plenty.
If I was a senator I’d flash that business card wherever and whenever I could.
Maybe not at the Jim McGreevy Memorial Rest Area on the Garden State Parkway, but pretty much everywhere else.
I find it interesting that Karsnia has gone from being a supervisor at the time of the greencycles incident, to being potty patrol bait. Demotion? Or are the Minneapolis airport supervisors that egalitarian?
Ah, but Cole is perfectly tolerant and respectful of teh ghey that repulses him so.
No, I don’t get it either.
Maybee,
Do you really want to defend Craig by saying the cop led him on? That’s what a cop in a sting operation is supposed to do, right? “Man, I never would have pulled out that bag of coke if the cop hadn’t acted like he wanted to score some blow.”
I don’t have a problem with gay sex between consenting adults, but they need to get a room. Don’t do it in a public place. Craig wasn’t arrested for victimizing the cop. The victim in this crime is the next guy who walks in while the two are going at it in the stall. The victim is the owner of the restroom who wants to maintain a respectable establishment. That’s why it’s a crime, not because we’re worried about men having to fend off unwanted sexual advances delivered in morse code.
Little late for this, but — that second link isn’t right is it? But it reminds me…
When I was a kid, the reason I wanted to be famous when I grew up was so the police wouldn’t beat me up anymore. Living in the “hood” fucks with your head like that.
I still have a scar around my eye from my first pig beat-down, received when I was eleven, for the heinous crime of riding my bike around a corner while a police car passed. I was fleeing, you see? (To the library.) Even though the first time I saw the car was when one of them slammed me face-first onto the hood of it. Because of the bravery.
Shit like that happened to me and my friends (more so to them, being black) every few days.
Bike-douche is lucky. He got one of the “good” ones. If that were my story, it would be the one about the least irrationally sadistic cop I ever encountered.
happyfeet’s analysis is not only highly readable its dead on.
Also, public lewdness is a crime regardless of the type of sex involved. So sexuality might be a factor in how the Craig thing is being played by media and bloggers, but its not the story in the arrest.
Thanks, psychologizer.
There was sex? Or a pickup attempt?
Just a thought: if Craig had been involved in a public, long-term relationship with another man for his entire life, then been accused of tossing the salad of strange women in public restrooms, do you think all these people would be proclaiming his heterosexuality?
A minor quibble with that. There are good cops out there. There are also lots of douchebag bullies who became cops explicitly for the power trip and the ability to fuck with people without retribution.
Thing is, the decent principled ones often don’t last long. And the ones that do are often the ones who are smart enough to figure things out so they wind up as detectives.
But yeah, there are way too many who act exactly as you describe and they do so with impunity and the support of their supervisors and peers.
Well, both, actually, Ardsgaine.
The solicitations can become very annoying and disruptive, not to mention bolder, especially if a locale gains traffic among cruisers by reputation. The sting was begun because of complaints.
If I’m a bluenose for thinking that an airport bathroom should be cleared of men using it for sex or sexual advances made to strangers, so be it.
What about Airport bars? If a woman, or a man for that matter, were to drop a hotel key on the bar in front of me and bolster the sexual intent with a knowing look and maybe some lip licking, has a crime been committed?
I’m no fan of trolling bathrooms, mind you, especially for people in positions of power and susceptible to influence. I’m just trying to identify the crime here.
When did we get to “Officer, arrest that man! He hit on me!” The terrain looks sorta First Amendmenty.
“The solicitations can become very annoying and disruptive, not to mention bolder, especially if a locale gains traffic among cruisers by reputation.”
You may be right. I don’t know. In 44 years, I’ve never been propositioned in a public bathroom, unless it was in some hidden code of which I was unaware. Maybee’s point was that the propositioning was in an unobtrusive form that might have been overlooked by someone not looking for it, and would not have continued had it not been encouraged. It seemed easier to concede that point. If it was otherwise, then, yes, we would have to include the men being propositioned as victims. One expects to be propositioned in a bar, but privacy should be scrupulously respected in a public bathroom.
“The sting was begun because of complaints.”
But were the complaints about being propositioned, or about walking in on liaisons in progress?
“If I’m a bluenose for thinking that an airport bathroom should be cleared of men using it for sex or sexual advances made to strangers, so be it.”
Ditto.
Not to be rude but was the dick on the bike, the same dick in the stall?
Pablo – Interesting point, one I had not considered. I guess the quite personal yet public location of the propositioning may give rise to extra scrutiny, this is ultimately hard to see a difference between what Sen. Craig did and what happens every night of the week at every bar, club and tavern in North America.
Pablo, it may vary on the bar, the suggestions made, how persistent and troublesome they are, and whether trysters are doing it in the booths nearby. I
Maybe the cop should have said, “I’m flatterd, but that is not my thing”, and just let it go.
Its not that long ago, before I was an adult, but not that long ago – that ladies were not welcome to lunch by themselves in better restaurants, precisely to discourage the sorts of ladies that would bring in the wrong crowd, changing the business and perhaps ruining it, which could spiral into a general decline of the neighborhood. In restaurants where ladies might lunch, You might be tested by a police officer to see if you were up to no good.
Why was there a sting at all? Were they just picking on the Gays, to bully and embarrass them? It’s because the bathrooms are for a particular purpose, and hot pick-up and/or trysting spot isn’t it.
It’s because whent that kind of behavior gets out of hand, and it does, it interferes with the public order and the public peace. If a place gets a reputation – it increases, gets bolder, interferes with the intended use of the area, leads to increasing ant-social behaviors, the people who want to go about unaccosted are annoyed, harrassed, alarmed, can’t let their children use the facilities. There are other social issues that make the random sex a bad thing, but the primary ones are quite enough.
[…] I know you’re not gay or molested, but we can work on those items […]
“What about Airport bars? If a woman, or a man for that matter, were to drop a hotel key on the bar in front of me and bolster the sexual intent with a knowing look and maybe some lip licking, has a crime been committed?”
I don’t know about the bars or bathrooms you use, but there are behaviors that are ok in one but are inappropriate in another. Is it criminal to bug someone in a bathroom like this? Could be. Support shitter’s rights!
SarahW. I love you, but you are overly concerned with what happens in men’s restrooms. What the sting operation makes clear is that to be hit on in a men’s room, you have to behave as if you are someone who wants to get hit on in a men’s room. The initial reports of “lewdness” therefore must have come from men who acted as if they were wanting to be hit on, felt as if they had been compromised, and reported the incident so as to clear themselves of suspicion of involvement. This is an Occam’s razor thing, since I think it’s clear that being hit on in an airport restroom is both highly unusual, and very much in the realm of things which guys are not particularly enthusiastic about finding a cop to have a chat about.
I was struck by how phony NPR’s Alex Chadwick sounded in his discussion of The Semiotics of Sexual Behavior sounded when he tried to ground the interview by saying that he had never noticed “foot tapping,” “nor had the other straight men on the Day To Day staff that I talked to earlier today… we were all … bewildered.” Maybe it’s just us, but guys around the office here, well, this is not likely to come up in conversation.
The Invasion of the Talking Telephone Pole – Redux
I have something my doctor calls Restless Leg Syndrome. From now on, I am going to avoid all public restrooms, so as to avoid even the appearance that by tapping my foot, I am in some way involved with teh ghey butseks.
The issue isn’t that Craig is gay. It’s that he’s spent his political career fighting against gay rights.
“Is it criminal to bug someone in a bathroom like this?” It better not be. Damn, what a fucking mess. I couldn’t really give less of a shit about this whole affair, except for the obvious two standard system for identifying idiot politicians. How far did the propositioning go? Was it simply the toe tapping and the hand under the stall? If that was the extent of it all, and people think those actions are criminal, then they have a very low tolerance for anything. I’m not even sure if that is deviant. It sounds like Craig (R-ID) wanted himself some cock. Good on him. I prefer vaginas myself, but whatever makes him happy. But, as others have stated, if he actually engaged in sexual acts (with a man or woman) in that PUBLIC restroom, than that is a crime. Or was it confirmed that that was his intent? To fuck in the public rest room.
Craig spent his political career representing his constituents.
deadjoe – Which “rights” are you referring to? And how does where he chooses to place his GAYPORNCOCKOFLIES relate to his policy positions?
“What about Airport bars? If a woman, or a man for that matter, were to drop a hotel key on the bar in front of me and bolster the sexual intent with a knowing look and maybe some lip licking, has a crime been committed?”
Yeah, I think it’s the intent to use the bathroom itself as the trysting place that makes it a crime, not the propositioning. The sex act doesn’t have to be consummated in order to establish that such an intent existed. A cop doesn’t have to actually sleep with the prostitute in order to arrest her/him for prostitution.
What if a guy was hanging out in bathrooms propositioning men to go with him back to his place? Well, the bathroom is owned by someone, and if the guy is being a nuisance, then the owner can demand that he leave. I don’t think he would be breaking a law, though, as irritating as such behavior would be to most people.
“The initial reports of “lewdness†therefore must have come from men who acted as if they were wanting to be hit on, felt as if they had been compromised, and reported the incident so as to clear themselves of suspicion of involvement.”
That’s a huge leap of logic. Are we sure the complaints weren’t made by men who walked into the bathroom while a tryst was in progress, and heard what was going on in the stall? Or, if it was men who thought they had been propositioned or harrassed, how do we know that the men who propositioned them were as circumspect as Craig? Then again, staring through the crack in the door isn’t all that circumspect, so maybe that type of behavior is enough to generate a complaint.
General question to the regulars here: What is the benefit of trying to deflect criticism from Craig?
Happyfeet, I am boring myself going on about men’s bathrooms. There’s a kind of numb buzzing in my head. (or is that the meningitis I seem to have picked up) I think one point I’m trying to get across, prudishly and pedantically, is that if you don’t nip this sort of thing in the bud, it unfortunately does gets out of control, and leads to dancing. Or rather, a decline in peace and order.
I have a teenaged son, whom I would love if he were Gay, but who is not, who has been pestered by creeps in the loo. There are once-beautiful areas of my city that were brought to ruin by cruising. So I don’t like it. I want it stopped. And I don’t understand it, and yet I do. I know enough about the human body and the human mind to know there are biological processes, perhaps disordered ones, but very powerful drives, at work. When does society have a right to check those drives?
When I judge the Senator and his activities, I’m not really defining him, I’m defining myself. I’m troubled that anyone would excuse his inability to control himself and his passions. Why aren’t people CONTROLLING THEIR PASSIONS! I AM SO CONTROLLED!!!!
None, except insofar as we believe that there’s something called truth, which is subject to interpretation, and we may be getting partial information which obscures it to some extent.
Personally, I am not trying to deflect it, I think the dude needs help. I am trying to dissect and understand the criticism, as it seems to be a bit disjointed and misdirected for the most part.
Yes, Ardsgaine, that is my point and happyfeet adds to it in his 11:02.
I agree with much of what you say in your 11:14, except to say that prostitution, whether it happens in that bathroom or back at the propositioner’s home, would be a crime. Having unpaid, consensual sex in a private location wouldn’t be.
I am all for wanting to clear cruisers out, but it seems to me demanding someone leave is enough. Arresting him and charging him is too much. I don’t like laws (like sexual harassment laws) where whether something is a crime depends on the desire and perception of the recipient. What if this were a unisex bathroom, and Craig were a beautiful woman? Crime or no crime?
Craig isn’t a beautiful woman. He’s a man, an old man. He was the persuer.
And if he were Glenn Close, well, you know how that turned out.
I’m not trying to deflect criticism. He deserves criticism. What he did was creepy at best. However, I have criticism for his arrest and the handling of the situation in general. Why not post a uniformed cop or a security guard in the restroom, rather than running a sting? Surely that would both dissuade sexual activity from taking place in the bathroom and comfort those that are afraid of encountering it.
This just in:
“Soros-linked group hit with huge fine”
“The Federal Election Commission has fined one of the last cycle’s biggest liberal political action committees $775,000 for using unregulated soft money to boost John Kerry and other Democratic candidates during the 2004 elections.
America Coming Together (ACT) raised $137 million for its get-out-the-vote effort in 2004, but the FEC found most of that cash came through contributions that violated federal limits.
The group’s big donors included George Soros, Progressive Corp. chairman Peter Lewis and the Service Employees International Union.”
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0807/5555.html
Stet……
Didn’t a prominent Hillary fundraiser, Hsu, just come under investigation as well?
Just to clear things up: not all of us here in Idaho are bi/curious. I’m not. But I have adjusted my “stance” and keep my hands firmly gripped on the…sports page just to avoid any close calls.
Come under investigation? I think he’s on the lam.
I am not sure who is defelcting blame from Craig. And blame for what? The fact that it looks like he wanted to get himself some? Again, for me at least, I am not sure what he did was wrong. If someone propositions me, I would decline. No harm. Would, I think he was a whack job for propositioning a complete stranger in a public restroom, or anwhere for that matter? Yes. But then again, being a whack job, isn’t against the law. He has his own problems it seems. I’m not sure if his wife is really for that stuff.
You have a point, Sarah. I just think the whole deal is sort of, well… it’s an area where private security would be better employed than police. I’m with MayBee, not wanting to say that there’s no problem, but that the solution should… We should aspire to be a society that can resolve these sorts of problems with a regard for the dignity of all involved.
“Personally, I am not trying to deflect it, I think the dude needs help. I am trying to dissect and understand the criticism, as it seems to be a bit disjointed and misdirected for the most part.”
There is a danger for members of both parties to get too caught up in being either a Republican or Democrat so that one feels threatened by anything that seems to damage the party’s image. We don’t have to carry water for any particular member of the Republican party. If a Republican does a bad thing, then he’s a bad man, but that doesn’t mean we’re in a bad party. We don’t have to defend ourselves or the party from spurious criticisms that try to fit us all into one mould.
Such criticisms are just politics as usual, and it’s no more than what happens over here when one of their guys is caught screwing up. But it never does any good to focus on the schadenfreude coming from the other side. People like Coles should be studiously ignored, because they don’t have anything to say that Republicans are going to find helpful. Being helpful isn’t part of their agenda, so forget them.
I thought this event did offer us an opportunity to discuss the divide within our camp over the issue of homosexuality, and how the religious fundamentalist position on homosexuality affects the party as a whole. That’s what I wanted to do, but the word “hypocrisy” has obviously become a hot button, and I got swamped by all the trolls coming over from Balloon Juice. I guess some other time would be better.
One time I removed and refolded the handkerchief to my suit pocket at an airport. Big mistake.
You forgot the “yada, yada, yada”, Dan.
“Why not post a uniformed cop or a security guard in the restroom”
LOL. Did you watch the video I linked to above? And you want to add a big burly guy in a uniform to the mix? No thanks. :)
In all fairness to Sarah, I’m not a parent. I just feel more comfortable going to a restroom chock full of perverts than one with police officers lurking about. I think I’m in psychologizer’s camp there, except with no scar.
Obstreperous, he isn’t just some Joe. He’s a Senator. He should be able to govern himself, before he would govern me. He should be above cheap and reckless behavior.
About this “getting some”…whatever happened to thinking that you may want some, but you don’t go get some. How come people aren’t at least expected to TRY to control themselves?
“He should be above cheap and reckless behavior.”
Welcome to the post-William Jefferson Clinton world, sister.
“Why not post a uniformed cop or a security guard in the restroomâ€Â
because the last time I offered to “post” a cop in a restroom I ended up on the evening news?
“I am not sure who is defelcting blame from Craig. […] Again, for me at least, I am not sure what he did was wrong.”
Got a mirror handy? He was trying to have sex in a public bathroom. You’re okay with people doing that?
“Obstreperous, he isn’t just some Joe. He’s a Senator. He should be able to govern himself, before he would govern me. He should be above cheap and reckless behavior.” Sarah, he’s a human. Which means he is flawed. I don’t know if he is up for re-election any time soon, but his constituents will make that judgement in regards to governing them. As far as wanting some. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. These are consenting adults. Again, if he wanted to “close” the deal in that bathroom, then I would add extreme dumbass to his already confirmed whack job status. As that is indeed illegal. This ultimately is between his wife and him, though.
“#
Comment by Ardsgaine on 8/29 @ 12:40 pm #
“I am not sure who is defelcting blame from Craig. […] Again, for me at least, I am not sure what he did was wrong.â€Â
Got a mirror handy? He was trying to have sex in a public bathroom. You’re okay with people doing that?”
Well, the reactionary left thinks it’s ok.
“because the last time I offered to “post†a cop in a restroom I ended up on the evening news?”
LOL! Ironically, I had a big bite of Oreos cookie in my mouth when I read that, and nearly lost it.
Happyfeet, there is tension, and I understand the qualms about the arrest. The most interesting part , to me, is Craig’s consciousness of guilt, and his calculated attempt to hide the incident.
I think it’s very clear Craig was, soliciting sex from a random guy in the bathroom, ( the cop, who was probably trying to appear like a prospect, but be ambiguous enough not to entrap). I don’t look at it in the light most favorable to Craig, as if I were a judge or a juror. He’s done this before, he does it a lot.
The argument seems to have moved on to “well, what’s wrong with that?”
I happen to think there is a lot wrong with indulging the self in that way. I’m told if I don’t accept this kind of depravity, I hate Gay people.
Ardsgaine, as I said in my comment, I wasn’t sure if he was trying to “attain” the sex partner or have sex in that bathroom. If it’s the former, than so what. If it’s the latter, than I absolutely agree that that is wrong on more than a few levels. Not the least, it being illegal.
Guys are dangerous. We must police them. Everywhere. Always. Not safe with women. Not safe with kids. Not safe with each other. They’re bad.
Oh – #84 was not in reply to anyone in particular. Oh yeah – Craig is guilty as all get out. But he was something less than a public menace I think.
“if he wanted to “close†the deal in that bathroom”
Where’s the ‘if’ coming from? Is there any room for doubt on that?
Obtreperous, Without questioning the Senator’s humanity, I think his position of power demands he not be a cheap or reckless man.
You and your big penises! But I’ve got reciprocal violence on my side.
SarahW- I think there is something wrong with it, too. Especially publicly. I have very high personal standards. I simply think that not everything detestable is a crime. Surely you’ve been hit on when you didn’t want to be. Did you want that person arrested?
Who ever wants to be hit on by an ugly old man? Yet move this behavior into another room, or make it a beautiful person, and it isn’t going to be criminal. That’s my problem.
“Ardsgaine, as I said in my comment, I wasn’t sure if he was trying to “attain†the sex partner or have sex in that bathroom. If it’s the former, than so what. If it’s the latter, than I absolutely agree that that is wrong on more than a few levels. Not the least, it being illegal.”
Okay. There’s a lag between our posts, so I hadn’t read that one yet. You’ll see my next one where I question whether that’s in doubt. Further up the thread, I stated that if a guy were in the restroom trying to pick someone up to go home with him, it would not be illegal, imo. I just don’t believe for a second that that’s what Craig had in mind.
Ardgsaine, I said above that I really wasn’t following this thing that closely, so my own ignorance on the subject maybe has damned me. I’ll take it from you, that his intent was to have sex with the guy in the bathroom. If that is the case, then there is nothing to argue, imo. I was saying that if his intent was just to procure a sex partner, imo, what he did (toe tapping/foot brushing), while exceptionally creepy, did not constitute a crime.
SarahW, I agree with you. My point is that even senators (especially senators, as some would argue) can be cheap and/or reckless. We can judge him on that level, but the only people that really matter, other than his wife, are his constituents.
There’s a cloud over Idaho.
If he wanted to have sex somewhere else, he could have just said, “Hi cutie, want to go have sex?” The elaborate foot tapping ritual would not have been necessary. He only needed the code because he was contemplating an illegal act.
“There’s a cloud over Idaho.”
They could use the rain.
NPR had a linguist on today who mentioned the press conference where Craig said… “Thank you all for coming out”. Of course the Freudian implications were joked about
and Jack Beady, the other speaker on the program, laughed particularly hard at this point.
About 5 minutes later, Jack Beady was speaking about some aspect of speech or whatnot and he began by saying “I’m coming out saying…”
None of the on air callers mentioned this and held Mr. Beady accountable for his Freudian intentions.
Oh, in addition to the point already taken about the plainclothes cop’s behavior, I have another. If my son told me he went into the bathroom and there was a guy kinda lurking around, who then went into a stall and just kinda hung out in there, making no typical noises and possibly moving his foot slowly up and down, I would be as creeped out by that guy as by a real cruiser. So would my son. So what is the benefit? Sure, he can get rid of guys who hit on him, but in the meantime everyone else using that restroom has now been convinced there’s a creep in the bathroom.
LOL…blog communicating at it’s best. If Jeff is awesome as everyone says he is, he should have a real time audio blog, where we could talk about this stuff in real time so as not talk past eachother. No, all we get is f’ed up armadillos, red pills and lots and lots of single malt scotch.
“He only needed the code because he was contemplating an illegal act.” Great point and one that had sailed way over my head.
“I was saying that if his intent was just to procure a sex partner, imo, what he did (toe tapping/foot brushing), while exceptionally creepy, did not constitute a crime.”
Yeah, if he could successfully make that argument, then he could beat the rap. Of course, he would have to admit to being gay. lol. But that goes to the question of what it takes to establish intent in a court of law in that type of situation, which is a technical question that I can’t answer. I imagine the prosecutor would have to show that he was following a pattern established by people who engage in that type of behavior.
Oh Ardsgaine, surely you’ve noticed there are odd rituals in almost every proposition. Men are wonderful, but few just come out and ask for sex.
Yes, they’re awful. And if you see them around women or children, or possibly even each other, the police should be notified.
As for the restroom romance, I still don’t see where what Craig did is a crime. And I see a few people conflating having sex in a place with making sexual advances in a place. It seems to me that the officer, if he wanted a good bust, should have let the situation evolve to the point where it was agreed upon to engage in teh butseks then and there. Until then, you’ve got gestures that demonstrate intent. But having intent isn’t a crime. Most things, including this one, aren’t crimes until you actually do them.
Good point, Pablo. Even using the (not quite analogous) prostitute solicitation, it isn’t illegal to talk to a prostitute or even suggest sex. It’s the discussion of money that will get you arrested.
That’s what sparkle said P, and I find the idea of the cop “letting things progress” kind of a savage disregard for someone’s dignity. Mrs. Craig would probably be on suicide watch, if that resultant police report were bandied about on NPR, which, it would be bandied about on NPR, you know, because of the semiotics.
“or make it a beautiful person, and it isn’t going to be criminal.”
Well that’s the blanchest of all carte blanches I’ve ever heard. Thanks MayBee!
kidding.
“There’s a cloud over Idaho.â€Â
They could use the rain.
Understatement alert! I only wish there were giant, rain-filled clouds over Idaho. But maybe all these fires are Gaia’s punishment for, uh…um…intolerance? Yeah, that’s it. Intolerance of senior senators with “wide stances.”
There s a county park on a bluff overlooking the beach near a place I was working on. The park is literally a parking lot where after leaving your car you can cross a road and take a trail down to a beach. That beach is remote and people go around the point and go nude. For whatever reasons that draws guys and stings happen there every few months.
Well, I was leaving the job when my butt told me I had eaten something that needed to go. I had about 60 seconds, so I spotted the porta potties at the park and I barrelled in, parked and dashed into one. Some guy in a truck sorta tapped his horn and I figured he worked on the same jobsite as me and I sorta waved and ran in. I’m inside a sweltering porta potty making awful sounds when a little tap tap happens on the door. “It’s busy” I yell. Tap tap. I’m thinking geez, they gotta be able to hear the explosions, but I say…”busy, give me a minute OK”. Tap tap. “I’m blowing my guts out here dude, give it a rest…”
No more problem.
So I get organized and walk out and I notice the lot has at least three guys sitting in their cars watching me. One of ’em gives me a little wave…. at that point I figured it out and gave them all the finger…. which probably excited them even more “such an angry boy….”
I’ve seen men having sex at the beach, in a car, and once when I was trail running I suprised two guys who were enjoying the sunset in a way I never could. The guys on the beach needed to get a room, or build a driftwood privacy fence at least.
Anyway, it has been said that people who don’t pay attention to their inner story risk creating a divide between what they believe and how they live.
I see that in Craig.
Whether or not he is gay is no not the question. The question is whether or not he can make an honest assessment of what he has inside. Most politicians are professional phoney’s, so I have my doubts about Craig’s abilities there.
“Men are wonderful, but few just come out and ask for sex.”
The same is true of women, alas.
And that’s what it takes with me, cause I am pretty dimwitted when it comes to that sort of thing. :(
I do believe his sexual preference is an issue for the 08 election because what he says he stands for. If you are running to be a public official and you are saying you are against gays then your sexual preference should back that up. You cannot do things that are homosexual activities and be against homosexuallity.
happyfeet,
Let’s try this again with the tag properly closed.
happyfeet,
And what is arresting someone for an indecency crime that they might be thinking about?
If you’re going to do a sting, it seems that you ought to keep it going until you’ve got a crime. And it was the cops’ decision to run the sting, so I don’t see following through on it until some sort of climax (no pun intended) as a particular burden. It seems a bit disingenuous to call it off upon a feasible claim that someone was probably thinking about committing a misdemeanor. Get to the point of agreeing to commit it, and it’s a different story.
“And I see a few people conflating having sex in a place with making sexual advances in a place.”
I’ve been at pains to differentiate the two.
“But having intent isn’t a crime. Most things, including this one, aren’t crimes until you actually do them.”
You can be arrested for the intent to commit a crime. There’s possession with intent to sell, for example. There’s also conspiracy to commit murder. Looking up solicitation returned this. If Craig was soliciting the officer to have sex in a place where sex is illegal, then he was guilty of a crime. So there’s no question as to whether there’s a potential crime here, it’s just a question of whether Craig had the intent to commit the crime. You’re saying that perhaps he wanted to take the guy somewhere else. Or maybe you buy the “wide stance” defense. Both of them seem pretty unlikely to me, but Craig could drop his plea and have his day in court, if he thought either defense was likely to work.
I dunno. I think if the cop had encouraged Craig to take things to a next level, he would be being criticized for that. I mean sheesh. And the people who weren’t criticizing would be asking why there weren’t photos.
That’s posession you’re being arrested for. Intent modifies the charge. It isn’t an arrest for intent. No posession, no arrest.
Which would apply if we had any documentation of Craig saying he was “against gays” or “against homosexuality.”
As far as I know, what he was against was same-sex marriage. When did all of the other issues we used to hear about as “gay” issues disappear, and SSM become the single defining issue of one to ten percent (depending on the stats you believe) of the entire population?
Rob H – Since you assume that he is against teh ghey, you would not mind providing evidence of that, would you?
“And the crime is conspiracy, not intent.”
Let’s don’t get hung up on semantics. It’s the intent that makes it a crime. You can’t be guilty of conspiracy to commit murder without the intent to commit murder.
“but was he doing that? Without fleshing things out a bit more on the scene, we don’t know. Upon receiving an affirmative response, he could just as well have offered a trip to his hotel. All we’ve got is foot tapping and hand waving, neither of which is criminal.”
Unless they amount to solicitation, which is a question of fact that would have to be established by a jury. He didn’t want to take it to a jury. He pled guilty in court, and he’s pleadining innocence in public, leaving it up to us to make the decision. Okay, I say he’s guilty. I’m not buying his ludicrous “wide stance” defense.
Hey, I know! Let’s talk about religious fundamentalists using rabidly homophobic doctrines to mask some pretty intense issues regarding their masculinity!
Unless you guys are kinda done with that…
I’m filing this under ‘Those who don’t know history are doomed to repeat it: Sumner Welles’
http://www.ralphmag.org/wellesH.html
Here is another example of the media selectively rejecting Vietnam analogies:
ok. That would be the wrong thread. Is it just me or do all these comment boxes look the same?
It’s you, happy. ;>
Mine are color-coded by thread…
Law is not semantic, law is precise. Intent to commit murder is not a crime. Conspiring to commit murder is, and intent is just one element of that. Conspiring and attempting are crimes. Wanting to is not. There’s nothing semantic about it. Find me a single person convicted of intent to murder without an attempt or a conspiracy.
“Men are wonderful, but few just come out and ask for sex.â€Â
No, mostly we just conk the object of our desire over the noggin, and then have at her.
“Conspiring to commit murder is, and intent is just one element of that.”
Yes, you’re right. I wasn’t claiming to read minds, though, I was speaking of a demonstrable intent, actions that would show an intent to commit the crime. If we limit ourselves to construing intent as a purely mental event, though, Craig had more than just intent. Make the hand waving and foot tapping sound as innocent as you like, we all know better. The policeman’s report shows that he was following a pattern of signals used by men who seek to have sex in public bathrooms. It would be up to a jury to determine whether it did in fact amount to soliciting, but Craig waived the right to a trial and pleaded guilty. Now he denies that he is guilty, and leaves it up to us to judge the case. My judgment is that he was solciting for sex in a public restroom. If he thinks he will get a better verdict from a more complete examination of the facts, he should drop his plea and go for the jury trial.
Does every thing these days get parsed and dissected until we all glow in the dark ?
What happened in the airport bathroom in Minneapolis is a no brainer for me. As is/was the (reduced charge) plea deal Craig signed onto 2 months after the fact. You don’t sign a guilty plea unless you’re…well, guilty.
For the record, I think it’s a good idea to curtail people soliciting sex in public areas.
Maybe it was a cry for help, the signing. Crap. I’m glowing. That’s so creepy.
“I’m glowing. That’s so creepy.”
It’s okay. Once you get used to it, you’ll be very proud of all the money you save on your electric bill. I haven’t had to turn on a light around here in years.
Dan
“You either ‘suck dick’- or you do not ‘suck dick’.
There is no “try”…
If we brought down the hammer on public solicitation, would I still be allowed to say “bite me” to timmah?
“If we brought down the hammer on public solicitation, would I still be allowed to say “bite me†to timmah?”
Only if you intend for him to do it in a public place.
Solicitation is what prostitutes do, isn’t it? Otherwise, every attempt to hook up with someone, regardless of its location, would be solicitation. That’s not the case, and it isn’t a crime unless you’re doing it for money.
You do if you’re not willing to accept the consequences of a trial, which in a case like this would be huge, even if you aren’t guilty. Of course, now he’s getting those consequences anyway, which demonstrates more of Craig’s extremely poor judgment. Best not to be a married US Senator cruising for dudes, if you ask me.
In public crappers, I’m inclined to agree. But you’ll never get that past the nightclub lobby.
“Solicitation is what prostitutes do, isn’t it?”
You ignored the link I sent yesterday, didn’t you? Here’s a quote:
In the United States, solicitation is a crime; it is an inchoate offense that consists of a person inciting, counseling, advising, urging, or commanding another to commit a crime with the specific intent that the person solicited commit the crime.
I’m assuming that ‘intent’ in the description above means an empirically demonstrable intent that can be proven in a court of law, rather than a purely theoretical intent that could only be discovered by a mind reader.
A crime like prostitution. Having sex is not a crime. Having sex in a public restroom is, but that didn’t happen here. Having sex for money is also, and again, didn’t happen here.
Why do men who commit sexual misconducts or are accused of doing it have their wives sitting next to them? Why do women support them? Do senators lie that easily? Do we need to have a tape on his sexual activities? Why wasn’t he furious at this accusation if it were not true? Watch him and you can see that he is very calm almost too thoughtful. I don’t believe this perverted hypocritical senator. The police officer has no reason to make this up. The senator is too ugly anyway and no woman would want to have sex with that thing. His wife is in DENIAL like all women are, You look so stupid sitting next to your man, believing every word he says. Keep being and looking dumb because you are a perfect but stupid alibi. Women like that have no decerning abilities.