In case you missed it, Dr. Helen defends herself from Neiwert’s (willful?) misinterpretation of her post, which started this whole brouhafuffle. EcoPunk reads back a little ways, but not to the radish of the issue. John Cole’s brain hurts. Personally, I don’t think that makes him feminine.
And I have a confession to make: I like Regina Spektor’s music. Does that (in and of itself) make me teh ghey? Feel free to make your own confessions. I find that getting things off my chest prevents my man-boobs from getting too large.
UPDATE: And speaking of essentialism . . .
The purpose behind my post was less to dig back into the deep-dark past of whatever argument I’ve stumbled upon, but to express my frustration at what I feel is a fallacious view of human nature that attempts to categorize the “masculine” and the “feminine.” It’s a mistake I see people from all sides of the political spectrum make, and I’m just tiring of it.
“Does that (in and of itself) make me teh ghey?”
I’m not sure, what does this “Regina” look like…
Nathan – Neiwert and the folks at manbearpig missed the mark by a mile, and bastardized Dr. Helen’s point to the extent that it could not longer be recognized. They doth protested too much.
Dan – It may not make you one of teh gay, but it certainly brings into question which team you would choose to be on ;-)
I’m a Packers fan.
The fudge-packers?
Meat.
Green Ghey Packers?
JD > I think all of the posts I’ve read about this topic doth protest too much, which was my point.
I noticed on television tonight, serr8d (as I’m at the NIH–I don’t get that at home), that there’s an “Ultimate Fighter” by the name of Randy Couture. I immediately thought of Victoria’s Secret catalogues. Is this the “A Boy Named Sue” effect, or does the guy just have a natural gift for beating people senseless?
I tried to leave this comment over at EcoPunk, but for some reason it didn’t take:
I’d be interested to hear how my right-wing self missed the mark. I mean, you say that I do, but you don’t say how, exactly.
Before you delve into your disquisition, though, I caution you to re-read my post. I took exception to the simplicity and circularity of Neiwert’s argument, which proceeds from a preconception of “conservatives” and works backwards. I mocked the kind of thinking that luxuriates in ostentatious psychologizing of an entire half of the population based solely on their political views (and Neiwert’s own internalized caricatures).
Later, in a comment, I wrote this:
Compare this with what you’re arguing [in your post]. Then we can discuss missing the point.
Dan – Randy Couture is a bad, bad man.
The Green Gay Meat Packers … I knew there was always something funny about Wisconsin.
I tried to post this as EcoPunk and didn’t have any more luck than Jeff. (The “first point” I’m agreeing with is essentially that our culture defines masculine and feminine is harmfully narrow ways.)
Nathan, I’d agree wholeheartedly with your first point and disagree just as strongly with your second. The cult status of masculinity in the Republican Party is a myth. I truly believe it is a made-up thing for no other purpose but to be able to attack conservatives. Describe, oh, Fred Thompson as “fatherly” and the crowing starts before the sentence is even punctuated.
Now Neiwart may have unfairly suffered some residual fall-out from a guy named Ric Caric, and that’s too bad. Caric wrote a longish rant about conservatives fetishizing masculinity including something or other about his wish for a thousand masculinities to bloom… except that it seemed rather clear that he was only talking about the right sort of masculinity blooming… not the fake sort that unmasculine conservatives were assuming in a vain hope to appear masculine.
Seriously, it was that deep.
Goldstein is a stay at home dad. Lileks is as well. (I’m not sure I spelled his name correctly.) Do people really think that conservatives don’t have conceptual room for nurturing men or for those who take on day-to-day domestic duties?
Nothing wrong with Regina Spektor:
Karl – She may think correctly, but that does not make her music any less painful.
Synova > Well, you’re not the only one who’s had problems with the comment system. Looks like the captcha system I’ve been using is too clever for many a computer. While I figure things out I’ve reverted back to regular commenting, so things should work now. If you want, feel free to try reposting your comment.
To answer your point, I think that the Republican Party is a bit more diverse than folks tend to give it credit for… As are the Democrats. Certainly not every Republican fits this mold, but I would say that the more fundamentalists sorts (what Neiwart and Robinson would call “authoritarians” – I mean this term to include more than just the militant religious fundamentalists normally associated with it) do with an alarmingly higher frequency. This is why I singled out “the dominant wing of the Republican Party.”
My sister’s a Republican and certainly doesn’t fit this mold, so I have some first-hand experience at seeing just how big a tent that party can be. There’s a lot of disagreement underneath the surface, though I think the party machine manages to smooth things over a lot better than the Democrats (who experience their own internal schisms) do.
Nathan
Trying to catergorize whether or not some particular act is “masculine” or “feminine” can, indeed, be an exercise in futility
However, male and female are inherently different…and by more than a x or y chromosome.
Anyone that has raised both boys and girls recognizes these very subtle but distinct differences.
There is a lot of overlap in behavior, but the totality of each sex is unique.
Darleen – We found out that we are expecting TWINS, and as much as I would kill to have a boy, raising a girl (at least in the early years) seems to be significantly easier. Since I already have 2 girls at home that I do not understand, I fully expect to have 4 girls in my home that I do not understand.
JD
Congrats!!! How exciting! (of course I say that from the comfortable distance of being a grandmother)
However, I myself have four daughters, and identical twin grandsons (will be 5 in Sept) and the differences are pretty eye opening.
Girls are easier as little ones. They have the same energy levels as boys, but express it differently.
And by the way, I agree with Darleen — there are certainly male and female behavioral traits that are intrinsic and not merely socially constructed.
But those differ from “masculine” and “feminine” traits in the same way sex differs from “gender.”
I reluctantly agreed to try for #2, and #3 came along for the ride, apparently. Now, my budget must be revamped, and re-funded.
I am apprehensive, and excited.
Congratulations JD! Do you know that you’re expecting girls?
I’ve got a son and three daughters all rushing into teenager years. Hormones suck, no matter if you’re talking about boys or girls. And there have definitely been times I’ve been relieved to find out that my son is acting more or less typical of boys his age. The girls I can compare to each other but his bizarre behavior has been a bit alarming at times… until one of my friends says that *her* boy also manages to randomly knock half a store over just standing in the checkout. (It’s apparently a talent… luckily it didn’t last long.)
I heard somebody use the term “genderized” today. Any clues?
This weekend, during the early morning hours, I was watching some show on E!, and the plastic surgeon was doing a breast removal on woman for the last stage of her transsexual transformation to a man. Rather than referring to herself as living her life as a man, she referred to herself as a man, and indicated that gender is subject to the desires of the occupant of the body. I am still scratching my head, and my balls, over that one.
JD
Hear, hear.
I don’t think it is just me, but I’m very disturbed at the increasing use of the word “gender” when “sex” would be the appropriate word. Plus the fact that many of those who liberally use “gender” tend to advocate “gender” as a fluid state subject to whim or choice according to “feelings”.
It smacks of a new age style religion rather than an attempt at hard science.
Synova – Yes, they are girls. Apparently, technology allows them to determine if the stem has fallen off a bit earlier. My 5 year old daughter is about 10X as mature as the boys in her class, and about 20x as smart, and the hormones have yet to kick in for the boys, which will skew those numbers upwards. Plus, even though my daughter loves sports, by her age, my parents had a standing order at the window store for all of the panes of glass that we broke.
Now, the teenage years, I dread.
Could you recommend a particular Spektor song to try out? One available on youtube?
I like some showtunes, but I’m not really a fan of Sondheim. I’m not sure where that puts me.
JD
Transexual used to refer to those who feel compelled to take the radical step of physically changing their bodies to “match” their internal image (if the “genders” were identical, this would be either an impossibility or a psychosis since “feeling” like either a “man” or “woman” would be moot)
However, it appears “transexual” is falling out of favor and the term “transGENDER” gets bandied about … with the concurrent politicizing. IE if you’re an employer who takes exception to hiring a man who crossdresses, you’re guilty of being a hater.
Steven Jens – google Spektor, moaning, and gibberish, and you should find many choices ;-)
Send in the Clowns – a Sondheim classic
I agree that there is a difference between how men and women behave… And that some of these differences may be intrinsic (inasmuch as any aspect of biology is “intrinsic”). That said, some of these differences stem not from anything deep-seated in our genes, but how we’re socialized by our parents, our peers, and other adults. Determining which effect is which is not at all easy, but my understanding is that we’re beginning to see that human behavior is remarkably malleable, which probably means that most behavioral differences between men and women are socially constructed.
There’s also a lot of spread in the behavioral patterns within the sexes; probably more than there is between the sexes.
What all this means is that while we may be able to say that “many men exhibit behavioral patterns X and Y” and “many women exhibit behavioral patterns W and Z,” actually stating that any one behavior, or combination of behaviors, usefully defines what it means to be “masculine” or “feminine” is probably a futile endeavor. There’s a big differences between saying “men and women generally exhibit these differences today” and “men and women are these ways, period and for all time,” or that “there exists optimal behavioral differences between men and women.”
Darleen – I am a simplistic rube. If you are born with a va-jay-jay, you are a woman. If you are born with a dick, you are a man. It is kind of like the whole masculinity debate, but different. If you have to spend thousands of dollars and multiple plastic surgeries to get your dick cut off, or one sewn on, you are never going to “be” what you are seeking to be. Kind of like the knock-off versions of golf clubs and fine watches.
Steven Jens
I’ve never heard of Spektor either
but hey … show tunes? I love the classics, Music Man, Oklahoma, South Pacific, Guys and Dolls, etc
Great American artform.
Auntie Mame is one of my favorites, along with Hello, Dolly.
Does that make me teh gay ?
JD
Have you ever read this? I really think it puts to lie the idea of gender as “unfixed”.
There is a tiny subset of children born “intersex”, and care needs to be taken NOT to do any surgery on them until they clue in others which sex they identify with…but the whole “men and women are the same, and we can choose to be what we want anytime we feel like it” is really disturbing.
JD
Only by some sort of stereotype … and it would make almost half the audience teh ghey, too, as most theater audiences tend to be hetero-couples.
Although, Menopause, the Musical does attract a specific demographic. ;-)
“Could you recommend a particular Spektor song to try out? One available on youtube?”
“Fidelity” was in my personal Top 10 from last year. Try that one. She did a superb rendition on Conan, so maybe it’s on youtube.
JD, it’s funny. The only one of my kids to break a window was my single girly-girl daughter.
Of my three girls, the eldest and youngest refuse to wear anything but boy clothes. The eldest likes knives, guns, wants to join the boxing club at school and would like to compete in MMA and already has a couple of years of karate under her belt. The youngest, in contrast, is uncoordinated and afraid of bugs. The middle girl who simply would *not* stop throwing anything and everything up into the air (including the crocket ball that broke my parent’s triple pane window), or spitting, or farting, is into pink cuteness, puffy hair binders, and the most girly stuff available. When she was a baby, though, she only liked sharp edged toys and seems the most intuitively technical. The other two liked soft toys.
The only advice I’ve got for teenage girls is that they’ve got no more control over their mood swings than your wife when she’s pregnant and not to take anything personally. That and not to be afraid of them because they’re getting boobs. When that happens they are going to need Dad to cuddle and rough house more than ever. (When our oldest got anti-touchy we made a game of touching so that she wouldn’t “go bad… like tuna.” It lasted about a year and a half and seems to have worked because she didn’t “go bad.”)
So anyhow… good luck with that. ;-)
For every sport I played, my parents made me participate in music lessons, choir, school theatre, etc… Somehow, I was Patrick Dennis in Mame, Horace in Hello Dolly, and the King in The King & I. I actually learned a lot doing that, though I doubt I impose the same requirements on my brood of women.
Synova – My 5 year old is all girl. If you ask her what she wants to do, other than swimming in her pool, she will inevitably say she wants to go get her hair or nails done. She also loves to practice karate on her father, and the pinnacle of humor for her is actually causing her father pain. She has an amazing knack of leading with her knees while Daddy is laying down, and quite precise aim.
Reading your post, I have resigned myself to being an outsider in my own home for many years to come.
Transsexuals are cool in that they have a vision of who they want to be and then do everything they have to do to attain it. But that’s pretty much the extent of the coolness of the transsexuals.
Very goal oriented people, huh happyfeet. That is to be commended.
Right. Gold stars all around.
In a sense I agree, Nathan, and in a sense I don’t. Consider my three girls. They’ve been socialized in nearly identical ways, same parents with the same ideas, same home culture.
I sometimes think that what needs to happen is that people need to start having five or seven or nine children again so that we’re more able to view differences between children as their individual selves and not as attitudes and attributes that have been imputed to them by culture or parents. When people have one or two kids it’s too easy to see them as products of parenting.
5? 7? 9? Good lord! Somebody needs to get snipped, but fast. lol
My grandmother was the youngest of 10 in the O’Hosey family. She had 9 older brothers. My mother had 7 sisters, and now I understand why my Grandfather called Jameson’s his “medicine”.
Stock tip – My better half is addicted to Pottery Barn Kids, Gymboree, and the like. Come April, they will be seeing a significant increase in their sales figures.
JD
I raised my four girls with three specific points – Music, Sports and Academics. They all had to take at least a year of piano, then another musical instrument. All have been excellent students, played in marching bands (#3 and #4 were their high school band’s Drum Major in their senior years) and played sports (swimming, soccer, track).
It made for very balanced young adults.
Stick with that strategy for your own girls and your conflicts with them (inevitable) will not be major ordeals.
Oh… the only thing my girls missed was Girl Scouts …no good troops in my area. I loved Scouting and I’m going to see that my boys get into Cub Scouts when they are of age.
…Johnson?
(ducks)
Damn… after 13 years as a band mom and the last field show was 2 1/2 years ago, regional championship — I still miss it.
Darleen – As I played practically every sport my high school offered, I wound up with 13 years of piano lessons. What do I have to show for that? I can play chopsticks with my fingers in excellent position.
Having my first girl was no big deal. Having twin girls terrifies me.
JD
Can you read music? Then you had a “boost” to the rest of your education.
Though, I think the 13 years was excessive if you didn’t have either desire or talent.
I gave #2 (mom of twins) the piano. When the boys hit 7, I’m going to pay for piano lessons.
Yes, I can read music. It may have been excessive, but I would rather sit through lessons and recitals rather than not playing a sport. I lacked the desire, but had a modicum of talent, which just infuriated my teacher. I do wish I could still play, and am looking forward to buying a piano for the home.
Regina Spektor, ti gullaboy, preveelno. Gavaresh?
Regina Spektor’s MySpace page has streaming music. Can’t say I was a huge fan at first, but it’s grown a bit on me.
Ya nizh naiyu
I messed up the link.
ya lublu piva.
My forthcoming epic is now a work in progress. JD, would you entertain doing a reading of the lead in Hobnailed in Georgian Bogs of Heather(subtitled The Michael Vick Story)?
All good Russian words begin with a p. Peedir, pizda, peezdets, pedik, perdet, etc.. ochen ploha.
BTW JD
I was a theatre geek in high school and did community theatre later
Got to do South Pacific at the West Covina Playhouse in ’96. Grand fun.
So don’t hesitate to “impose” the arts on your wommin folk.
Thor, I would be honored, to say the least. I suspect the laughing I would do would be the equivalent of a weeks worth of situps.
Darleen – I am not the “imposing” type.
I put the quote marks around the word on purpose, JD.
I think strong encouragment and some amount of prodding can be judiciously done. Kinda like teaching the proper toothbrushing techniques
The best thing I did for my girls is not let them quit band. They made life long friends and had the time of their lives.
just catching up… congrats, JD! your comment about having to be in a house with four women reminded me of an old friend/mentor. He was the most mild mannered guy and he would often “complain” about being outnumbered by the females at home. “even the cat!”
on the music/sports “imposing” I once heard someone frame it as, “you wouldn’t let your kids quit school just because they ‘don’t like it’ why should an extra-curricular activity be any different?” to an extent I could agree, my sister and I had piano lessons through high school. I always come across people that say, “I had a couple years of lessons, but wish my parents had made me do more” I had enough and now have only my own laziness to blame.
anyway, trying to wind down from four hours o’ Carousel rehearsal. at least it wasn’t all dancing like last night.
High up in John Cole’s comments (a place where I haven’t visited in quite some time, pretty much since it became infested with idiots) you can see timmah whining about how Jeff threatened to beat him up, just for disagreeing.
Which is right on par with timmah’s understanding of everything else, so I can’t say that I’m surprised.
On further reading, it looks as if timmah is telling pretty much everyone else that Jeff threatened him.
How come there’s never a playground monitor around when you need one?
I find that getting things off my chest prevents my man-boobs from getting too large.
I dropped 2 cup sizes with daily pushups.
Slarti – He is doing the same thing over at Caric’s site.
God help me, but I love showtunes.
Is the perfect example of Stalinist academia. If this were Cuba, Dr. Bailey would have been shipped off to a mental hospital last year and beaten with rock-laden bras by now.
For others’ experiences with sexualist/fascist/Stalinist academia (complete with death threats, loss of livelihood, and the typical tools of the elite when they need to suppress opionions not their own) take a look around NARTH.
Of all the roads to go down, why that one, Tim?
Indeed. After all, it was alphie that was the alpha victim. Timmah is just all neocons suck.
Um, guys, y’all realize that Real Men(tm) don’t obsess about their masculinity?
Hey! What happened to the TW?
Yeah, why copy and paste what was said without giving context. I mean, most people aren’t gonna follow a link and won’t know why Jeff threatened him. Copy and pasting? That’s just wrong
anyway, trying to wind down from four hours o’ Carousel rehearsal. at least it wasn’t all dancing like last night.
Oooooo…maggie, I’m envious!
Heck, looks like we have enough thespians here to put on the PW version of HMS Pinafore
I can sing a mean bass
“John Cole’s brain hurts. Personally, I don’t think that makes him feminine.”
Well, if it only hurts three days a month, and makes him really cranky for a couple days before that…
Darleen, AGMA says we’ll need 27 people for it. (9 roles and 18 chorus)
“Of all the roads to go down, why that one, Tim?” Because, he’s an idiot. That will be the easiest question of the day.
JD, congrats. I am a father of two girls myself. One is a maturing much too quickly 8 year old (she has gone from being cute to pretty!)and the other is a rambunctious “almost” two year old. Their physical appearances are eerily similar. Like twins born 6 years apart. However, the personalities are night and day. The 8 year old has always been outgoing and would go to anybody at first sight. Even complete strangers. The “almost” two year old still won’t leave mommy or daddy for at least 15 to 20 minutes when visiting or being visited by either set of grandparents. The 8 year old never showed an interest in sports (until recently) but already the little one loves to play “ball and hoop”. She’ll also watch a good stretch of basketball with Daddy and any athlete on TV, no matter what sport they are playing, is always “Bron!” (Lebron James). She isn’t into dolls as much as the 8 year old was, either. As with everything, nature an nurture work hand in hand.
Here’s me threatening to beat timmah up (in response to his having called me a pussy, essentially, for going the law enforcement route with Frisch. Ironic, isn’t it? Because all I can gather from that is that, to Timmy’s way of thinking, a REAL MAN would have…what? Ignored it entirely? Or gone all Death Wish on her?)
First, here’s timmy’s comment:
— which was brought to my attention by another commenter.
My response:
This, after asking him on at least 4 prior occasions not to post again.
Then there’s this that I wrote:
The context of that? That Timmy wouldn’t be calling me a racist or a homophobe in person — not because I’d beat his ass for it, but rather because he’d fear that I might. Because he’s a coward.
Timmy — having been asked now on at least 5 occasions not to post anymore, responds:
Now. Did I say “you wanna take it outside?” No. I just noted that timmah would likely not say such things to my face. Because he’s essentially a pussy. Otherwise he would never have brought up the Frisch thing — and again, certainly not in front of me.
To prove this, I posted an email from him commiserating. Showing that not only was timmy a pussy, but he’s a pussy of the two-faced, phony, ass kissing variety.
My response:
Now, given my proclivity for using law enforcement to keep persistent stalkers away — as Timmy himself noted, and mocked — why on earth would he see this as a physical threat?
Here’s the text of timmy’s email, re: Frisch. Keep in mind that this is one of the many many emails he sent, all of them in the same tenor: that of a world-class kiss up:
And then my final comment on the matter:
I will be less than gracious in greeting him.
Why, it’s practically Clint Eastwood-esque in its hypermasculinist threateningness!
I’ll say it again. Timmy is a pussy. That he’s now running around whining that I threatened to kick his ass, looking for a likeminded crowd to join up with so as to beat on mean old pasty, is a pretty fair indicator of what a cypher this guy really is.
Call me, timmy! We’ll do lunch!
You may mean “cipher” in the sense of “a message written in a secret code”, but I think “a person of no influence” or “a mathematical element that when added to another number yields the same number” is more accurate.
cypher.
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. Jeff, timmy has a great big hard on for you and it’s obvious. You’re the forbidden fruit for the little dem apparatchuk. Unrequited love is a tough thing. Timmah will just have to learn to push on through. But, if he’s hanging at perfesser ummms site, well than God bless the little tyke. That is kind of like the blind leading the blind.
Jeff – I copied your response, in full, to rebut Timmah’s lies. Sorry, but it drives me nuts to see someone lie and it just be allowed to sit there without rebuttal.
And posted it where, JD?
I would just as soon you didn’t engage timmy over at Doc Ric’s site.
He’s a lying, two-faced, unctuous and officious sack of bad faith, with the mind of an undergrad who secretly believes himself more well-read than his professors.
Not only that, but the poor, needy bastard is starting to fixate on me. I note that he’s already accused me of being “The Ghost of Zarkawi” who posts comments here — which is completely false.
Did someone say this guy is studying to be a lawyer? Because he really should be careful about making those kinds of accusations.
It was at the good Professor’s site. I will no longer address this wish him. My bad.
anyway, trying to wind down from four hours o’ Carousel rehearsal. at least it wasn’t all dancing like last night.
Carousel rehearsal? Like the Carousel in Logan’s Run? that Carousel?
Ummm, it’s probably not all that great…
Geezer, LOL. I thought about that after I hit the “say it” button. I was meaning more in intensity than actual size. But then again, timmah may be hung like a horse. He’s about as sharp as one.
I have to admit, I rather like trolls, so long as they are well mannered.
Timmah! belongs at Balloon Juice.
An insult to horses everywhere. But then recent census data indicates that there are about three horse’s asses for every horse in the country.
Been camping my Myspace, eh Dan? I know, I like Regina too. I found her through listening to Pandora.