From CBS/AP:
Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick was indicted Tuesday by a federal grand jury on charges related to illegal dog fighting.
Vick and three others were charged with violating federal laws against competitive dog fighting, procuring and training pit bulls for fighting and conducting the enterprise across state lines.
Vick and the other defendants […] were involved in an ongoing animal fighting venture based out of Vick’s home in Smithfield, Va., from early 2001 to April 2007, according to a statement released by the office of the U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia.
Vick faces $350,000 in fines and six years in prison if convicted of the charges.
[…]
On July 7, federal authorities conducted a second search of the Surry, Va., property owned by Vick that is the center of the dog fighting investigation.
According to court documents filed by federal authorities earlier this month, dog fights have been sponsored by “Bad Newz Kennels” at the property since at least 2002. For the events, participants and dogs traveled from South Carolina, North Carolina, Maryland, New York, Texas and other states.
Fifty-four pit bulls were recovered from the property during searches in April, along with a “rape stand,” used to hold dogs in place for mating; an electric treadmill modified for dogs; and a bloodied piece of carpeting, the documents said.
During a June search of the property, investigators uncovered the graves of seven pit bulls that were killed by members of “Bad Newz Kennels” following sessions to test whether the dogs would be good fighters, the documents alleged.
Members of “Bad Newz Kennels” also sponsored and exhibited fights in other parts of Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Maryland, New Jersey and other states, according to the filings.
On Vick’s Web site, he lists his birthplace as Newport News, “a.k.a. BadNews.”
The documents said the fights usually occurred late at night or in the early morning and would last several hours.
Before fights, participating dogs of the same sex would be weighed and bathed, according to the filings. Opposing dogs would be washed to remove any poison or narcotic placed on the dog’s coat that could affect the other dog’s performance.
Sometimes, dogs weren’t fed to “make it more hungry for the other dog.”
Fights would end when one dog died or with the surrender of the losing dog, which was sometimes put to death by drowning, strangulation, hanging, gun shot, electrocution or some other method, according to the documents.
Vick initially said he had no idea the property might have been used in a criminal enterprise and blamed family members for taking advantage of his generosity.
If the Duke case taught us nothing, it’s that we shouldn’t rush to judgment on the basis of a high profile indictment of an athlete or athletes.
Still, the idea that Vick — who had t-shirts and headbands made up for Bad Newz Kennels — wasn’t aware of a massive dog fighting ring being run out of his own property, where the remains of dogs were found in several graves, is difficult to believe at first blush; and making that more unlikely, it seems to me, is the interstate scope of the dog fighting ring.
Vick is accused, according to the 19-page indictment, of being involved in the killing of a number of underperforming dogs — including killing one by slamming it to the ground.
According to a police informant, Vick is considered one of the “heavyweights” in dog fighting circles — a “high roller” — and his involvement in dog fights continued, according to sources, well into last season.
Under the NFL’s new get-tough policy, Vick will get every benefit of the doubt; the policy was designed to deal with repeat offenders, and this is Vick’s first reported offense.
Still, if the allegations are true, there is little doubt that Vick’s career is all but over. No fan base is going to support a man involved in the torture and murder of dogs; and any team that decides to give him a second chance (again, assuming the charges are true) will open itself off to protests and consistently negative publicity.
Vick is one of the most dynamic talents in the NFL (though he is, in my opinion, overrated as a professional quarterback), so I hope the indictment proves overzealous.
But if I had to trust my gut — and going on the evidence thus far released, including statements made by police informants — it looks like Vick could be facing jail time.
And he’d deserve it, too.
What will be interesting to see is if the same people who were quick to theorize about “white privilege” in the Duke Lax case will find a way to turn Vick’s predicament into a racial issue: either by suggesting that the indictment is racially motivated; or else taking the more “sociological” route in which some attempt is made to explain Vick’s actions in light of cultural and economic factors.
Developing…
****
More here.
I know this is big news, but just imagine if Peyton Manning had been indicted for this.
I know if this were a white Jeb-Jefro hick in the backwoods of Virginia stomping on dogs PETA would be pissed.
For the NFL’s sake, part of me hopes that this is not true. With all of the shitty headlines that Pac Man got for the league, having one of the “stars” involved in something as noxious as this takes the focus away from it being the most popular sport, besides NASCAR, in the country. Unlike the NBA, the NFL has worked hard to cultivate and earn its image and popularity, and that is part of the reason why I do not complain about paying $150 per seat to go watch my Colts play. The other side of the same coin is that the Pacers, just a couple of blocks away, typify what is wrong with the NBA, and my dollars have not been spent in that incredible arena in over 2 years.
If true, he should burn in the Special Hell (normally reserved for child molesters & people who talk during movies) for doing this. It’s not like roosters who would naturally fight each other. Dogs have to be “trained” to it. And by “trained”, I mean mistreated to the point where they make a certain former professor look rational.
reCaptcha: Connaaght defiance “Up the Irish!”
What color were the dogs?
Cause any white dogs in this mess probably had it coming.
Uhhhh…just how many members of the Bengals, for instance, have been in trouble with the law over the last few seasons?
There are plenty of players in the NBA and MLB who have sullied their uniforms (*cough*BarryespeciallyBonds*cough*) but the NFL has, for me at least, looked like a breeding ground for thugs and criminals over the past few years.
The only thing that keeps it from being as visible as the NBA’s scandals is the fact that the players are, for the most part, hidden behind a helmet and facemask, if you asked me. Not that you did.
If he had killed the dogs humanely I would not find this story very interesting at all. Even so, someone needs to help me understand why this is a federal thing. Lynne Stewart. This guy probably shouldn’t serve more time than she did, and I think the potential for recidivism is far less for this guy.
Tell me it ain’t so,Joe…
Oh…
Wait…
TW: Reform. Exchange.
If I had another cup of coffee in me, I could have done something really clever with that…
Your Google AdSense suggests we’ll be interested in this.
Don’t be evil.
Dog fighting is sub-human. Something critical in your soul is missing if you do that. If this proves true, Vick should lose his career.
Actually, they should bring shunning back. It would solve a whole range of social problems.
tw: He’s over ‘the borderline’. (It lives!)
Grrrr…damn blog
That’s somewhat beside the point. The pool of young athletes that the leagues draw from are susceptible to a common problem: They’re spoiled as hell and they’re led to believe they’re better than everybody else. More so than any other league, the NFL is proactive in trying to instill some discipline in their draftees and their penalties for moral transgressions are absolutely draconian compared to the other leagues and they’ve been that way for many years.
tw; smoked defense
“They’re spoiled as hell and they’re led to believe they’re better than everybody else.”
The Senate?
“With all of the shitty headlines that Pac Man got for the league, having one of the “stars†involved in something as noxious as this takes the focus away from it being the most popular sport, besides NASCAR, in the country. Unlike the NBA, the NFL has worked hard to cultivate and earn its image and popularity”
It’s a shame football is so boring, and hence sucks. But hey, it’s got “HITS!” and guys “HIT EACH OTHER!” and big dudes run around “HITTING OTHER BIG DUDES!” so it must be a Real, Exciting Sportâ„¢.
Tough to not rush to judgment but I think most people are trying not to – Duke is still fresh in our minds.
PETA has indicated their intent to protest Vick and Falcons games. It will possibly be the first time in the history of the world I will not mind seeing these people picket something. (picketing something isn’t convicting them in a court of law =0).
The other interesting thing is the VERY polarizing effect Vick has had on the city of Atlanta – racial lines have already been drawn and I foresee it getting worse- isn’t dog fighting part of that “thug” image so many black athletes are attempting to cultivate (b/c making millions of dollars for playing a game isn’t “image” enough). Expect alot of racially charged finger pointing- and how long till Jesse and Al show up ?
* Even so, someone needs to help me understand why this is a federal thing*
I couldn’t tell if you were serious about this. Its trafficing the dogs across state lines for fights that got the feds involved (interstate commerce). The sheriff’s department was apparently dragging its feet so the fibbies stepped in and got things moving.
Once in a while, the federal governent is good for something.
murder of dogs
Careful. You might be branded an extremist.
Take it from a dog lover and rescuer (we once brought home from Gatlinburg a Great Pyr that weighed 40 pounds. Gastric torsion carried her off three years later before we could get her to the vet, and at that time she weighed 110 pounds).
People who dogfight are scum. If he’s guilty, he deserves to lose it all.
By the way, pro football players are quite recidivistic. Just look at the taxpayer-subsidized Bangals.
Sean M – The Bengals are the exception, not the rule. I think the new Commish is practically hellbent on making certain that does not continue, and I suspect that the Bengals organization is going to start addressing issues before the league steps in.
TPotter – Are you saying that the NFL is not the most popular and exciting spectator sport out there right now?
Cue Jesse and Al anytime now …
Let’s not forget Vick was found with what appeared to be *ahem* “questionable residue” in the special compartment of a water bottle he was carrying.
If any of these charges are true, and I can’t believe I’m saying this, but it makes Marcus Vick look like the responsible one.
OT, but important, via Drudge:
“US: Top al-Qaida in Iraq Figure Captured”
http://asia.news.yahoo.com/070718/ap/d8qevb680.html
QUAGMIRE!
TPotter – Are you saying that the NFL is not the most popular and exciting spectator sport out there right now?
Am I saying it’s not the most popular? No, I’m not saying that. Alas, such is the case. Not exciting? Yes, I am saying that.
Yawn.
Dogfighting is disgusting, but for dogs who are bred to fight, it’s what they do, just like dogs that have been bred to run, run really well. I’m revolted on one level, but on another level, I’m also conscious of dogs’ roots and the fact that they aren’t little four legged humans; letting dogs fight isn’t the same as putting two four year-olds in a room with pistols, and telling them that only the winner gets to watch Spongebob.
As for why this is a big deal, Steve Czaban pretty much nailed it this morning. He said dogfighting was “illegal” until PacMan Jones was involved in his eighth or ninth altercation with the law, which happened to be a shooting at a Vegas strip club, and now Vick’s dogfighting is “ILLEGAL,” as NFL Commish Roger Gaddel is taking a serious interest in all the off-field antics of the players, including the felonious Cincinatti Bungles, who should probably have one of those signs with flip-able numbers outside their ballpark, “_____ Days Since an Arrest!”
I was watching ESPN when this story broke and I was apalled – both at the story, and how it was being “played” by ESPN “reporters”. Nothing at all about the ugly crimes; it was all about how the NFL might respond and how Atlanta team would deal with situation. Not a word in 30+ mintes I watched about Vick being involved in such an ugly ugly I ugly “hobby”. I wonder if today ESPN will wake up and realize how heinous such activities are and how a ten foot pole between Vick and NFL (and ESPN) should be immediately wielded for protection of its reputations, etc.
All the Bengals are trying to do is same money on uniforms. They can take everybody’s orange jumpsuits and paint black stripes on for cheap.
Al,
“Dogfighting is disgusting, but for dogs who are bred to fight, it’s what they do, just like dogs that have been bred to run, run really well.”
Dogs are bred to fight by humans. They have no say in the matter. Unlike NFL players who are rewarded very well for busting each others’ heads, a dog bred and forced to fight faces one of only two outcomes — if he wins, he fights again. And again. If he loses, he dies. Usually in pain. There’s no injured reserve list or retired player pension.
If it was me, I’d much rather force Congressmen to fight each other with churchkeys in the Capitol Rotunda.
The problem with dogfighting is that any breeding done to enhance bloody aggression was done by humans, and with that comes important responsibility. Inflicting pain for entertainment is morally reprehensible.
By the way, killing noncompetitive greyhounds who otherwise “run really well” is quite common at the tracks. The least expensive method used is hammers to the skull of the hapless dogs. Unfortunately, the first blow is seldom the killing one, just as “letting dogs fight” usually results in a lot of suffering for the dog victims of the fight promoters.
True, dogs are not little four-legged humans. They deserve better than suffering because they do not freely engage their own torture. It is humans who force it upon dogs: a submissive dog will not be killed by its dog attacker if it is given an avenue of escape. Of course, for the human dog fighter, a submissive animal will be shot, clubbed, or strangled because it won’t make money or be entertaining.
“Dogfighting is disgusting, but for dogs who are bred to fight, it’s what they do, just like dogs that have been bred to run, run really wel
So, I suppose the dogs choose to take walks with weights on the leash? Dragging the weight down the street?
Besides being cruel, it’s dangerous to the community. I’ve had fighting dogs attack me and my dog (yes, I kinda live in the hood)- they broke off their chain. It’s scary.
I do not get this whole “cultural” thing. If this type of cruelty is part of your culture, then your culture could really use a bit of introspection.
While I love animals I’ve never been a big animal rights guy and I can’t stand PETA even a little bit (favorite bumper sticker: “PETA; People Eating Tasty Animals.”)
That having been said, humans who are deliberately cruel to animals for the sole purpose of entertainment disgust me. That includes bullfights and greyhound races. Horse racing gets, mostly, a pass because they generally treat those animals pretty darn well.
Vick, if guilty, deserves whatever he gets.
I can only hope that Vick & the Falcons play at Philadelphia this year. For once, the viciousness of Eagle’s fans could be used for good, not evil.
Over at Neal Boortz’s talk show web site (http://boortz.com/nuze/index.html) (Herman Cain guest hosting this week), there’s a poll up asking readers what should happen to Vick. It currently has about 50% of respondents saying he should move through the legal system like any other person.
My opinion is that he’ll get much more in the way of due process than the Duke players did, and that he’s going to beat the rap when race warlords like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton turn the legal case into a race riot. In that case, the best we can hope is that those prosecuting the case escape with their reputations intact, and that Freddy’s Fashion Mart doesn’t get burned down again.
It’s a pity Johnny Cochrane’s dead. I’d be looking forward to another Chewbacca defense.
Given the fairly clear lines drawn within the community of Atlanta, this does not appear to have a happy ending on the horizon, even if there are lots of Brazilian massage therapists.
TW : Mexico consented, as in, Ron Mexico consented to all of this?
Ummm… Excuse me?…
Dog fighting is a FEDERAL case?
Surprised to see you’d think he’d deserve jail time Jeff. Why should dog fighting be illegal? Given the conditions the animals live under in the meat industry, it seems inconsistent for dog fighting to be illegal.
Enough that in Cincinnati, the first thing that pops into your head when you see someone pulled over by the police is “I wonder what position he plays”.
““Dogfighting is disgusting, but for dogs who are bred to fight, it’s what they do, just like dogs that have been bred to run, run really well.â€Â
The dogs are bred to have physical traits that enhance their fighting abilities, but have to be taught to fight. I have inherited/adopted (long stories) a couple of pit bulls and found them to be amazingly sweet and loving animals if treated with kindness. One of mine found and adopted a tiny kitten in the woods near our house and mothered it just like a puppy. I loath anyone who would use these dogs affection to turn them into viscous beasts by torturing and abusing them.
As to Vick, many Atlanta fans have been convinced he is not smart enough to play QB in the NFL, but dare not say it aloud. As horribly dark as the cloud is, it could have a silver lining for football fans.
Why should dog fighting be illegal? If you cannot see the readily visible answer to such a question, then you ought to take a look internally, as some circuits must not be completed.
The conditions of which semm speaks are [i]delicious.[/i]
The conditions in which these dogs live… however…
In the meat industry, the animals are used for food. And of course, you’ll never see a cow dial 911, help a blind man cross a street, or pull little Timmy out of a well.
he’s going to beat the rap when race warlords like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton turn the legal case into a race riot
That should be interesting, with racial racketeers claiming that animal cruelty is racist slander. Don’t you think even certified malicious liar Al Sharpton would steer clear of this lose-lose situation?
And of course, you’ll never see a cow dial 911, help a blind man cross a street, or pull little Timmy out of a well.
MOOOOOOO. MOOOOOOOO. MOOOOOOOOOO. Stomp, stomp, stomp. MOOOOOOOOOO.
“What’s the matter Maisy Belle? Has little Timmy fallen into the stainless steel milk cooler again?”
I’m just not into cruelty, so I’ll hope Vick gets the maximum sentence to discourage any others.
I only wish the FBI were as diligent at, say, pursuing Al Quaeda terrorist or M13 or any other violent criminals. Somehow, I get the feeling that had a bunch of unknowns been involved, this would not have gotten Federal attention.
JD:
Quit dodging and answer the question. ‘Because it’s obvious’ isn’t exactly a very convincing argument.
I’ll run down the arguments for you, as you appear to be unwilling to give the matter much thought:
1) It’s cruel to the animals.
-It is quite cruel. So are a variety of other animal handling practices employed in the meat industry. So, how can one be illegal and wrong and the other not?
2) But the dog fights are for pure enjoyment, people need meat.
-There are a variety of alternatives to eating meat, it is by no means a requirement of proper health. Therefore, the eating of meat if for enjoyment, we enjoy eating meat and give little thought to the conditions the animals live in because we don’t mind cruelty employed for the purposes of meat farming.
3) It isn’t about the animals, its about the effects watching such a vicious activities has on the people who go to them. Anybody who could watch a dog fight is clearly a sadist.
– If the infliction of cruelty to animals lead to violent or anti-social behavior then we would expect to see an increased tendency towards such behavior among those to slaughter animals. I have never heard of a study being done to support this claim.
There is no underlying crime here against another human being, and the laws protecting animals are currently totally arbitrary in who they do and do not protect.
So. Set the wayback machine to the ESPN booth of that 2001 draft: who will be better, Tomlinson or Vick?
FEEDSTOCK ANIMALS ARE PEOPLE TOO!
SOYBEANS RULE! ANIMAL FLESH DROOLS!
YOU CAN’T HEAR THE PLANTS SCREAM!
ADOPT A CHICKEN!
THE OTHER WHITE MEAT IS CARNAGE!
How am I doin’, semm?
“-It is quite cruel. So are a variety of other animal handling practices employed in the meat industry. So, how can one be illegal and wrong and the other not?”
It might help if you gave some examples, kind of hard to make a comparison otherwise.
Semm – “If the infliction of cruelty to animals lead to violent or anti-social behavior then we would expect to see an increased tendency towards such behavior among those to slaughter animals. I have never heard of a study being done to support this claim.”
You left out an important modifier — the INTENTIONAL infliction of cruelty. Having been involved with raising beef cattle since I was about 7 years old, I’ve never seen a producer or processor intentionally inflict harm on an animal for self-gratification. Some of the conditions under which meat is produced are not for the squeamish, I grant you. Neither are conditions in most of nature. If you don’t want to eat meat, don’t. But don’t try to equate the willful sadism of dogfighting with raising and slaughtering meat animals. Having seen both, you can trust me when I say this — they ain’t the same.
If he’s truly involved, they should let him fight the remaining stock, all at once. My money is on Rover and friends.
OK, I’ll be the lone asshole in the swarm of deep-feeling humanists.
Dogs are freakin’ dogs. Dogs sniff and slobber their privates, fuck, fight, eat and sleep. Sure, domesticated they can be real swell pets, but, in reality, they are still dogs – food chain critters meant to be fried in garlic butter and eaten over a bed of wild rice when served as a gourmet Korean delicacy.
That Michael Vick flaunted state and federal law is the issue, not Lassie. You can transfer all kinds of emotion from the yellow Lab of your childhood upon Vick’s caged four-legged fighters, but that’s misinterpretation, furthermore, it may illustrate your viscera is pussified and weakened by suburbia’s animals-are-love delusion, which is no crime in and of itself but oft-times ought’a be. Wasn’t misplaced emotional transference and unbridled academic-borne pussification at the heart of the Duke rape case? Indeed.
What we have here is the failure of society to communicate with young Mr. Vick. Monsieur Vick surely underestimated the potential criminal risk at stake, even moreso, likely, the suburban over-emotionalized wrath that’s now burst forth since the moment he was accused of being the heavy in a large dog fighting circle. Inject midgets with steroids then toss ’em in a cage and you’ve got a pay-per-view sellout! Let snarling dogs fight and it’s straight to the penitentiary, black boy!
Further more, let us remove the bigotry of failed expectations. Michael Vick has 4.3 speed. That’d be 4.3 turfed-surface pad speed, bitches, which translates into three-yards of vital separation for every three steps of Vickian take-off. That’s a 3rd-down-and-10 weapon unbeknownst to the greatest of defensive minds until when? Until Michael Vick took a snap in a three-step drop back pass formation, that’s when. Any spacing of the defensive tackles combined with a failed arm tackle from your linebacker and Vick is downtown in touchdown city. Like that, blink of an eye, and Vick is spiking a bulldog-sized oblong ball in your face. Hence the success of his tight-end, who naturally gets a free step on the terrified linebackers in a 3-4 defense.
Sure, we’ve witnessed Eric Metcalfian speed before, but not combined with true NFL velocity in the throwing arm.
The man is surely special, and human, so I pity him. One can only pray some in the swarm of pussifieds pause for a moment of reflection as it is you alongside Michael Vick that is on trial. Indict Micheal, but only if you can do so for his offense and not your transferred, over-emotive prejudices.
The only time I’ve heard of someone enjoying the slaughter of livestock was the “Day the Roosters Died” on our farm. But that was because the little bastards had started attacking us.
“If he’s truly involved, they should let him fight the remaining stock, all at once. My money is on Rover and friends.”
Agreed. If he’s found guilty, dropping him in the pit with some strategically placed peanut butter and pork chops would make things interesting.
“Inject midgets with steroids then toss ‘em in a cage and you’ve got a pay-per-view sellout! Let snarling dogs fight and it’s straight to the penitentiary, black boy! ”
Unlike the dogs, the migdets can say “no thanks”. And WTF is the “black boy” reference for? You nailed it Thor; you are an asshole.
If the Duke case taught us nothing, it’s that we shouldn’t rush to judgment on the basis of a high profile indictment of an athlete or athletes.
Jeff, I agree 100%. However I think we have seen two different kinds of investigations. With the Duke case there seemed to be a rush to indict without having or using all of the evidence. I mean, from my understanding Nifong never even interviewed the alleged victim prior to the indictment. There were media leaks and Nifong, in my opinion, said some fairly irresponsible things to the media. There was clearly a political motivation behind Nifongs actions.
In this case they seemed to really take their time with the investigation. There is no “Nifong” for this case. There were few, if any, leaks to the media. Bottom line, nobody saw the indictment coming, which tells me they were taking special care to keep the integrity of the investigation intact. Even the owner of the Falcons thought that Vick was in the clear prior to taking his trip to Africa. So did I for that matter, but I am a Vick fan, so maybe it was wishful thinking on my part.
I am going to reserve judgment in this case until there is a verdict. However, if the owner of the Falcons or the league decides that they do not want to deal with the public backlash and prevent Vick from taking part in the season, I will not hold it against them. If he is found guilty of any part of this he should do some time in prison and will lose at least one fan, which he may have already lost.
Save a Cow…Eat a vegetarian! Yes, semm. Having dogs kill eachother to satisfy some kind of bloodlust is the same thing as eating the aforementioned cow. I see the light.
Vick’s an ass IF he was involved and should be punished according to the law. It’s not too “thug” to have dogs fighting each other. Why not just fight yourself? I suspect that these “thugs” aren’t really to keen on being thuggish.
If Michael Vick weren’t black he would be reviled for the brick-bat stupid, no-class backwoods redneck that he is. A good defense shuts him down every time, because it requires a spark of intelligence to read the formation and coverage, and Vick don’t have it.
“Dogs are freakin’ dogs. Dogs sniff and slobber their privates, fuck, fight, eat and sleep.”
Dogs very rarely fight naturally, fighting is primarily a political thing, over turf or breeding privileges. Even more rare is a fight to the death. This kind of viscousness required for pit fighting is cultivated by cruelty and conditioning- individual humans are responsible for this behavior, not the dogs. Personally, I believe a kind of trust is established during the process of domesticity. I believe this type of behavior betrays that trust morally. But that is just me.
Thor; chill, man.
I don’t think you are an asshole for having those opinions. I myself complain often about the elevation of animals to people status, you know, one of the family and all. I don’t begrudge anyone (including myself) from having affection and real love for an animal.
That having been said, your midget comparison is bogus and I think you know it. Misdets speak and can say no (unless they are mute, then they should be abused without quarter (I kid!)) Willful, sustained cruelty for cheap entertainment and thrills is worthy of a statute and those participating and promoting said games across state lines are worthy of the Federal evil eye.
As for Vick, all that you say is true but you’ve left out the fact that he is a below average Quarterback in the passing ratings. His touchdown/Interception ratio is bad and with his tendancies to fumble make him a bit of a turnover machine. The combination of phenominal athlete with questionable accuracy and turnovers has not placed him in the top half of NFL quarterbacks, IMHO.
Not yet, anyway.
I said on the day it happened and I’ll repeat it here: The Falcons will probably rue the day they traded Matt Shaub. Full disclosure: I’m a big Shaub fan as he played high school football about 10 miles from my house.
BTW: Did a flock of geese maul you as a child? It sounds like you have some animal hate issues.
Ya know, had it not been mentioned in this thread, I’d have no idea Vick was black. I saw “dog fighting” and thought “red neck”, primarily because the town I grew up in was the site of a pretty big dog fighting bust in the late ’70s, early ’80s. I don’t remember if it was a federal or just state case, but it was quite the story for a while.
BJ (and a few others): You are, seemingly, not interested in an actual discussion of the topic so I won’t attempt to engage your further. However I will note in parting that whatever assumptions you may have about my personal eating choices are almost certainly wrong, I am not a vegetarian. Not that my own preferences are at all relevant to the discussion at hand.
slackjawedyokel: thank you for your reply. The question of intent cannot possibly matter from animal’s point of view, so your point can only be relevant with regard to the effects of dog fighting on those who participate in it. And again, if we are going to ban dog fighting because we think its bad for the people who participate in it, well, all I can say is thats a scary road of social engineering you begin to wander down, and I’d rather err on the side of letting people make their own decisions for good or ill and only judging them when their behavior infringes on the right of another actual human being.
As to your other point about condition in the meat industry being better than those the fighting dogs live in, well, you are almost certainly better informed on this point than me but from the videos I’ve seen (of meat preparation and dog fighting both) I would find it tough to draw a strong distinction between the two for the purposes of the law.
My canine teeth have convinced me otherwise.
I don’t think they are there to tear at a root.
“You are, seemingly, not interested in an actual discussion of the topic so I won’t attempt to engage your further.”
Discussion of what topic? You say the meat industry is equivalent, I ask for specific examples.
“from the videos I’ve seen (of meat preparation and dog fighting both) I would find it tough to draw a strong distinction between the two for the purposes of the law.”
This is neither sourcing nor an argument, what videos have you seen? What did they show? Why, specifically, do you fail to see a distinction? If you want a discussion here, you need to figure out how to initiate one. Believe me there are plenty of folks here interested in actual discussions, the problem is you don’t seem to know what one is.
Jeff G: There is quite a difference between the ability to do a thing and the necessity of doing a thing.
Do you honestly believe that without eating meat one cannot maintain good health?
Semm, the vegetarian thing was just something I saw on a bumper sticker and I thought was pretty cute. I wasn’t meaning to infer that you are a vegetarian AND that that is bad thing. Certainly it isn’t. I agree with BJ in the sense that I think propping up dogs, or any other animals, to “one of the family” status is silly. However, I also recognize that that is MY feeling and certainly not shared by millions and millions of other people. So love your dog as your mom for all I care (again, speaking in general). I just don’t get your equivalance in cows being slaughtered for humans to eat and dogs being forced to kill eachother to satisfy some base need for blood lust. I just don’t see it. I know you’re taking the more libertarian stance, in letting people decided for themselves and you see an inconsistency in the way we treat animals (treat them all the same), but again, I just don’t see it.
there’s also quite a difference between refraining from something because you can and refraining from it because you should. Do you honestly believe that man is not intended to be carnivorous or that it’s immoral to be so?
tw: Abercromby beet Screw that. I want buffalo wings.
“The question of intent cannot possibly matter from animal’s point of view, so your point can only be relevant with regard to the effects of dog fighting on those who participate in it. And again, if we are going to ban dog fighting because we think its bad for the people who participate in it, well, all I can say is thats a scary road of social engineering you begin to wander down, and I’d rather err on the side of letting people make their own decisions for good or ill and only judging them when their behavior infringes on the right of another actual human being.”
I believe that argument is weak and that framing is somewhat dishonest. I should hardly think that a distinction between intentional and unintentional cruelty to animals need be so nuanced.
[…] “dogfighting.” I glanced at Goldstein’s post about it last night and scoffed when he said Vick’s career is probably over. QBs who run a […]
Or that a steer and a dog are equivalent. One co-evolved with humanity and was bred largely for companionship and intelligence; the other was bred for docility, efficiency, and flavor.
Granted, there are cultures where dogs are eaten. There are also cultures where cattle are sacred. What bearing either of those facts have on the standards and practices in our culture is a mystery to me.
Moe B: My apologies, I has assumed most people where familiar with the the realities of meat production. A simple google video search “meat industry cruelty” pulls dozens of examples for you to watch. I’d be interested as to whether you think the owners of those plants should be prosecuted as vigorously as Vic is sure to be.
Mr Boo: I’m having some trouble following what you are saying, would you care to elaborate?
Pablo: What i believe to me immoral or moral is not relevant as far as policy goes. However, since you asked me what I personally believe I am rather on the fence at the moment as to the morality of how we should treat animals. In fact its precisely for this reason that I’m inclined to make the position of letting people decide for themselves what is and isn’t wrong when it comes to how to treat animals.
I will note also though that an ‘argument from evolution’ holds no water for me. What we did to survive in our past informs me not at all as to how I should act today. I mean, suppose for instance that we found certain proteins in our systems that let us digest human meat, because, say, cannibalism was rampant in our ancient history (this does occur among chimps for instance). I would hardly think that an argument in favor of the morality of eating people!
BJ, of course I’m not truly an asshole, fuckin’a Texan by birthright, podnuh. It’s just the irony laced hypocrisy of the prejudicial societal beast. When I’m ripping apart a nice-sized tuna while using a specialized fillet knife to separate bone from fish meat it’s then I’m handed a beer with a congratulatory laugh as a t-shirt and flip-flop wearing So. Florida buddy-o recalls my funny faces and priapic physical comedy that kept a whole boat full of half drunk hombres in stitches. Witness a dogfight – shocking cruelty of unspoken horror, surely I should be impaled in a public square! Indicted, charged, handcuffed, shown to a cinder block room containing a metal toilet that needs no sit down seat, forget the lid! Leave my entrails to the sun and buzzards!
If 4-H teaches one anything it’s that the circle of life for animals is quick. Braiding the tail, massaging the flanks and brushing the fur of tomorrow’s breakfast sausage is, frankly, fuckin’ stupid. Dogs are carnivores that rip the flesh from their prey, and I get that. Where and why a justice system would involve itself with the jailing of a special human because he or she wrought a little extra pain onto a animal bred to bring pain and finality onto whatever it wants to eat… by means of killing, seems to me farcical as a Ponderosa dinner bell made of glass.
BTW, Michael Vick has never had the luxury of top-shelf wideouts nor a consistent offensive scheme because of ever-rotating coaches in Atlanta. If Vick had 3 starting wideouts as sure-handed as Alge Crumpler and as dedicated as Warrick Dunn who’d be saying what? Besides, nary a defensive coordinator wishes to line-up against Michael Vick on any given Sunday, the big risk being jockstraps lost and left strewn about in the red-zone can emotionally deflate a locker room of flat footed defensive fatties. Face up to what NFL defenses already know, Vick is a special sort of problem child. And no dog fight can take his talent away, hence he’ll be starting somewhere in the NFL, I mean, it’s not like he’s Terrel Owens an shit.
Said videos being produced by unbiased observers intent only on informing the public.
Because, as a society, we’ve decided that’s a verboten act.
If that bothers you, well, work on changing it.
You can’t murder a dog.
“Moe B: My apologies, I has assumed most people where familiar with the the realities of meat production. A simple google video search “meat industry cruelty†pulls dozens of examples for you to watch. I’d be interested as to whether you think the owners of those plants should be prosecuted as vigorously as Vic is sure to be.”
I don’t really care to make a Google search and formulate an argument with myself, mess. I am fairly familiar with the meat processing industry and have stated repeatedly I don’t see a comparison. YOU, mess, are the one asserting that a comparison exists, and YOU are responsible for making that case. Given your powers of observation and comprehension in something as simple as my online handle, mess, I can see where that might be an intimidating challenge for you, but that is how a discussion works. You aren’t in progressiveland here, a discussion does not consist of you pulling pretentious sounding bullshit out of your ass while your buddies all scratch their chins and nod knowingly.
I think your comparison is bullshit, it is up to you to prove otherwise.
I’m going to jump back in and say yeah, I’m a fellow dog-hating animal cruelty-lovin’ asshole too I guess, Thor. At least that’s what folks here probably think. Here’s the thing – I believe a lot of you are anthropomorphizing dogs a wee bit too much. For instance, “fighting is primarily a political thing, over turf or breeding privileges…”
Fighting is a ‘political thing’? WTF… I guess I must have missed the Canine Magna Carta, the Dog Declaration of Independence, and the Poochie Parliament, not to mention the quadrennial Dobie Debates, and the biennial Cocker Spaniel Congressional Elections. Please, people. Dogs are wonderful, but they are domesticated animals. Don’t impute into them human characteristics. I’ve seen the tiniest lap dogs fighting viciously with each other – did some octagenarian teach her cockapoo to whup Dachshund ass? I don’t think so, it’s what dogs do, some more than others. Yep, some dogs have been bred to be better fighters, but even if they weren’t being bred for it, you could still find plenty of dogs game for a good fight. Granted, dogs aren’t as rough as cats, cats fight and kill for the fun of it, and I’ve only ever seen a couple dogs that actually liked to kill other animals… but they are still just dumb beasts.
Do I think dog fighting should be illegal? Yes, I do, I think it’s wrong to treat dumb beasts that way. But I have trouble treating this as a high sounding moral crusade, because I don’t think it is, I believe it’s just a basic sort of ethical duty we owe to animals (and to ourselves,) to avoid unnecessary cruelty to animals – frankly I’m a lot more worried about man’s cruelty to his fellow man, that’s a bit higher on my priority list. You need to maintain a bit of perspective and balance. For the same reason I think slaughterhouses are often ghastly places because they too often fail to employ enough force to kill the cow / hog whatever quickly and humanely enough. No, it shouldn’t be a top priority in our political life but it’s something we should take care of. No, I’m not a bleeding heart, I grew up hunting deer & elk and small game, but also grew up with lots of dogs, and even cried for a solid day when my favorite dog ran away. I also saw what feral dogs are like following the Gulf War, and until you’ve seen a pack of dogs digging up human corpses and snacking on them, killing another dog in their pack for a disciplinary infraction or taking down a Bedouin and killing him in under a minute, you don’t really appreciate what dogs are all about, beneath the belly rubbing, ball fetching and tail wagging exterior. Yep, after this one pack took down the Bedo, I shot lots and lots of feral dogs over there, had to be done – well, unless you think it’s acceptable for dogs to hunt humans. I don’t think anybody bred them to hunt Bedos, but that’s what they started to do, because they are dogs.
And now that a bunch of folks are wiping the sweat from their foreheads and getting ready to tee me up, you need to know my wife & I are about to adopt an abused dog from a shelter. That dog is going to have a good home, and if anybody does anything to hurt the dog, they’re going to have to answer to me, and it isn’t going to be pretty. But no matter how much we come to love the dog, he ain’t sleeping in the bed because he is still just a damn dog, not a second husband or a third kid.
Sorry about the screed, but I haven’t seen the comments devolve into this level of irrational screedy goodness since the last time Mona/Hypatia/(Your Name Here) was in the neighborhood.
Semm,
Ah, you’ve convinced me. Let’s go get a sack of kittens, throw those little suckers in the deep end of the pool, and take bets on how long they’ll float. Sounds like a surefire moneymaker to me, and it’s not like we’re hurting anybody, is it? Don’t forget to bring the kids.
Comment by semm on 7/18 @ 10:49 am #
“Jeff G: There is quite a difference between the ability to do a thing and the necessity of doing a thing.
Do you honestly believe that without eating meat one cannot maintain good health?”
I don’t speak for Mr. Jeff, but when a hippo chomps up a human it does not do so not for food as hippos are well known vegetarians. The hippo acts instinctive to its impulses, as if trapped world he never made, reactive to forces felt yet never understood.
When I venture into the wilds with a vile of deer urine and attired in camouflage, neither am I hungry nor in poor health for lack of nutrition. I am there to kill a shit-eating Bambi-looking animal. I relish the fray and look to that day when I’m lucky enough drop and field dress a horny buck!
Necessary, well, that depends if you prefer starvation or disease (maybe a programmable robot) to cull the herd or if you prefer a meat-eating manly men who grin when holding big guns.
Ability and necessity is moot, man is born to kill and only later was he self-taught to eat with a fork and knife. I kill, therefore I am. :)
Fighting is a ‘political thing’? WTF… I guess I must have missed the Canine Magna Carta, the Dog Declaration of Independence, and the Poochie Parliament, not to mention the quadrennial Dobie Debates, and the biennial Cocker Spaniel Congressional Elections.
So the concept of the alpha-dog is a left-wing fantasy? Dogs packs don’t have heirarchies and dogs aren’t territorial?
I’ve seen the tiniest lap dogs fighting viciously with each other – did some octagenarian teach her cockapoo to whup Dachshund ass?
In many cases, yes. Not understanding dog body language and the politics of the pack lead many owners to raise maladjusted, confused animals who lack social skills. I am not saying it is an advanced structure, but dogs are very social creatures, they naturally form packs with a fairly rigid social structure and pecking order. It is in their genes, and people who don’t understand the body language and psychology behind this usually raise fucked up dogs.
While I agree this is horrific — it’s not “murder”; torture and senseless killing yes, murder, no. Vick will pay greatly for this — it’s not laughing matter to torture animals for the sake of your sick enjoyment; animal cruelty has been linked to other crimes, and is often the precursor that leads one to murder another human being. Vick, you had it all — what in the world were you thinking?
Comment by B Moe on 7/18 @ 10:07 am #
Dogs very rarely fight naturally, fighting is primarily a political thing, over turf or breeding privileges. Even more rare is a fight to the death.
Spend time around more than one Lab or German Shephard-type-sized dog. It’s not like they go at each other all day everyday, it just seems that way, trapped in world they never made, a metal spiked choke collar their only guiding light. (I can’t help myself Dan, I jst love your line-of-the-day several days back. Am I gushing?)
The Atlanta Falcons take a big hit…
Michael Vick indicted on federal charges involving dog fighting.
Legal bleg? What’s the federal interest here, is it gambling? Put me some knowledge.
Anyway it’s stupid, not to mention unconscionable (c’mon all you rooster fighter…
So if dog-fighting is a federal crime, can we safely assume that pretty much everything is a federal crime nowadays?
Seems like a pretty awful “sport,” though, and not one I’d personally be interested in watching.
The federal interest seems to be that it was an inter-state gambling ring, it is a racketeering crime of some sort or another.
“Vick initially said he had no idea the property might have been used in a criminal enterprise”
In a related item, there was also a counterfiet jeans ring operating out of Vick’s carhole of which he was similiarly unaware.
Yeah, Moe, dogs have heirarchies. So do sets of numbers. That doesn’t mean we need to be humane to numbers when we are doing long division, and it doesn’t mean numbers are capable of doing politics, though you can make them do some things for you in the political arena. The octogenarian’s lapdog isn’t normally “taught” to fight, the old bag simply didn’t know how to properly channel the dog’s natural instincts to keep it from fighting when placed in situations that trigger the natural urge to fight. No teaching or politics involved – dogs do what they do because they don’t have a choice, their instincts tell them what to do, and when we train them, we merely take advantage of their instinctual behavior. The smartest dog in the world recognizes some words, can carry out a handful of instructions, and can do some broad tasks with a degree of intelligence that is surprising for an animal, but which are again based on the dogs instincts (e.g. bomb dogs’ smelling hazardous materials, exercise of fight or flight to protect the “pack.”) Dogs have lovely instincts, and I believe they do feel a quite genuine range of emotions – but they are still just dogs. Quit trying to anthropomorphize wittow snookums. I’m not buying it.
So his actual crime is gambling without giving the government its take. An unpardonable sin, of course.
(Before anyone gets upset, I’m just ridiculing the fact that these are federal charges, not expressing approval of dog-fighting)
How the fuck is objecting to dog-fighting anthropomorphizing dogs?
I think chickens are evil, cruel beasts that deserve to be eaten, but I’d object to someone skinning them alive for entertainment.
Mighty Thor,
Since Vick, the Falcons have been widely viewed by top-tier free agent WR’s as the Team Where Wideouts Go To Die because of Vick’s inaccurate throwing arm, so they’ve avoided that team like genital warts. Vick ain’t inaccurate because he doesn’t have decent WR’s, he’s just plain inaccurate. Not too many Hall of Fame WR’s coming out of Green Bay these days, but Favre can at least keep his completion percentage in the 60’s. Vick’s left a few dead coaches in his path, too. When the new coach came in and talked about improving Vick’s accuracy in Vick’s 6th (7th?) year, there are problems. Convert him to a deadly half-back already. Hines Ward passes better than this stiff. So does Joey Harrington.
Am I off topic?
“The octogenarian’s lapdog isn’t normally “taught†to fight, the old bag simply didn’t know how to properly channel the dog’s natural instincts to keep it from fighting when placed in situations that trigger the natural urge to fight.”
Exactly. That is politics, dude. The dog thinks it is the king because it hasn’t been taught different. That is all most dog fights are, minor skirmishes to establish a pecking order. Once that order is fixed, a dog pack is a fairly peaceful place, fights to the death are not natural behavior for dogs.
And when was the last time a fight broke out between the numbers in her checkbook?
“Quit trying to anthropomorphize wittow snookums. I’m not buying it.”
Why do you keep saying that? Do you think man is the only creature who has a social structure? Other animals just wander aimlessly about, hoping whatever they are sticking their dick in is one of their own?
Just because I recognize primitive communication skills and a basic pecking order among some species of animals doesn’t mean I put them anywhere near the same level as humans. This all started with the contention that it was perfectly natural for dogs to fight on command to the death. I call bullshit.
Dogs are an offshoot of wolves, and wolves will kill a member of another pack if they encounter it in their territory. I mean they will surround the interloper and tear it to pieces. On video if there are wildlife biologists nearby with cameras in working order.
This is, of course, wolves and not dogs, and it’s not fighting to the death “within” a pack, and it is ultimately political — but it’s also killing, and it’s also perfectly natural behavior.
Just sayin’.
(TW: collars offer — now cut that out!)
Comment by LionDude on 7/18 @ 1:18 pm #
Mighty Thor,
Since Vick, the Falcons have been widely viewed by top-tier free agent WR’s as the Team Where Wideouts Go To Die because of Vick’s inaccurate throwing arm, so they’ve avoided that team like genital warts. Vick ain’t inaccurate because he doesn’t have decent WR’s, he’s just plain inaccurate. Not too many Hall of Fame WR’s coming out of Green Bay these days, but Favre can at least keep his completion percentage in the 60’s. Vick’s left a few dead coaches in his path, too. When the new coach came in and talked about improving Vick’s accuracy in Vick’s 6th (7th?) year, there are problems. Convert him to a deadly half-back already. Hines Ward passes better than this stiff. So does Joey Harrington.
Am I off topic?
I’m not saying Michael Vick is Brett Favre. I’m saying he’s better than his statistics. I’m also going to ask you when Brett Favre rushed for over a hundred yards. Statistically simplifying to the nonce is a mistake beyond question. Michael Vick possesses an average NFL arm and one that’s better than average in strength, not to mention Vick’s feet are faster than Nancly Pelosi’s eyelids. The kid isn’t a proven winner, granted, but if Trent Dilfer can take a team to the promise land then Michael Vick sure as shit is capable of the same.
Joey Harrington tosses a nice long ball, by the way, but categoricaly putting Vick anywhere near Harrington is lunar. Harrington! Why you gotta hate on Vick like that? Hath your cruelty no boundries? You piler on’er.
At least a chicken can make a run for it. What’s a stalk of broccoli going to do — lean to one side and hope nobody notices it?
All of which is beside the point. The intent here was to pit animals against each other until one of them was dead. Those that underperformed were killed in revolting ways. As a society, we have decided that we aren’t comfortable with such behavior — while as a society we have decided we are comfortable with eating meat.
Those who aren’t are free to commit genocide on a field of sprouts and society won’t squawk. That is, until somebody comes along and raises consciousness about sprout genocide — at which point, legislation could be introduced, and we can put it to a vote.
Vick (allegedly) broke the law. His (alleged) behavior was barbaric. We have laws against such behavior. If he broke them, he should go to jail.
Semm and Thor take the cake for mouth breathing morons. Do you dopes read the shit you posted?
And Vick is a terribly overrated quarterback. Watching the draft this year, I kept thinking the Falcons were going to pick up Brady Quinn, given that Vick was under investigation for the dog fighting set up.
Which, by the way, we romantic antropomorphizers have convinced legislatures to make illegal. So. HOW YOU LIKE US NOW, BITCHES?
Okay anthropomorphizers, if dogs are just like humans in thinking, feeling, and having politics, then why the fuck don’t we give them a vote, let them get driver’s licenses, and let them go to school? Shit, if they can play football, they’d definitely meet Oklahoma’s admission standards…
In the alternative, please explain to me why they shouldn’t have legal rights just like we do.
Okay anthropomorphizers, if dogs are just like humans in thinking, feeling, and having politics, then why the fuck don’t we give them a vote…I’d rather see my dogs vote than timb and whoever the fuck it is that he knows who say they’d vote for Hillary Clinton. One of them would vote for “anything minty,” the other for some cheese, and the last for a couple of dirty socks. Any one of which, you have to admit, is better than Hillary Clinton.
Guess I screwed the pooch on my blockquote above…
if dogs are just like humans in thinking, feeling, and having politics, then why the fuck don’t we give them a vote
If they could be counted as reliably voting Democrat, Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi would be overjoyed to support such legislation. They’ve got the dead vote locked up already.
Regarding the “federal case” argument, acquaintences of mine in Richmond tell me that the Commonwealth’s Attorney in that area has been dragging his feet on prosecuting the case, going so far as to refuse to execute a search warrant on Vick’s property.
Those who tend to note membership in various identity groups might observe that the accused and the prosecutor share membership in one such identity group that’s figured large in our discussions since the Duke Lacrosse case. Those who tend to see the best in others merely see a part-time prosecutor stuck in the middle of a case way bigger than what he normally sees.
Regardless of which way one sees it, it is likely that the lack of local action figured into the Feds’ decision to proceed with their own case based on interstate commerce jurisdiction.
I ask the group to forgive my offering of hearsay evidence, and to enlighten me with further details on the local situation that I may be missing.
Comment by Mark on 7/18 @ 2:19 pm #
“Semm and Thor take the cake for mouth breathing morons. Do you dopes read the shit you posted?”
Occasionally I give my posts a second glance before I hit enter but the process of my typing the posts leaves little need to later re-read my own posts, you see.
As for your lowering our discourse to a personal animosity-tinged level, might I suggest you put down Mr. Vick’s dead bulldog pups. Lobbing once lively bulldoggie carcasses at my head serves no purpose other than to motivate me to purposely over-pick Michael Vick in the first round of the fantasy football league of your choice and henceforth kick your ass 17-weeks running. Dare I assume you have no idea of the bonus-point pain a QB scampering over 40-yards to the house can inflict? Undoubtedly not.
Over-rated? Vick is pure value starting in the fourth round of any draft. Even if they benched him at QB he’ll be out on the field somewhere burning defenses. What part of 4.3 pad speed confuses you people? Nightmares of strangled puppies won’t help anyone catch Michael Vick from behind, matter of fact, it’s likely it’d take the police to reel him in once he gets a step in the flats, not to mention, motivationally speaking, Michael Vick is now feeling just a wee trapped in a world he never made, so keep that in mind.
Thor, are you queer for Vick’s gear? Not that there is anything wrong with that, you understand.
“Michael Vick is now feeling just a wee trapped in a world he never made, so keep that in mind.”
Now that is funny. A sadistic prick gets busted and the first defense is victimology. The bastard deserves to han an axe handle worn out on him.
Mighty Thor,
I was merely talking about passing ability which, you would have to agree, is a fairly significant skill an NFL QB must have. I know the guy runs like the wind in every direction and has a cannon for an arm. But he also has to consistently hit the small “open windows” afforded by complex NFL secondaries to convert the third and 8’s to WR’s running out patterns, for example. A successful NFL QB doesn’t necessarily have to be fleet of foot (Manning, Marino, Montana) and/or can be an intelligent game manager without lofty passing/rushing stats (Aikman, Dilfer). Vick hasn’t shown an ability to do the latter, and his legs won’t consistently carry a team as a QB.
But since I’ve never played in the NFL and I dared comment or give an opinion without actually ever suiting up, feel free to call me a “ChickenFalcon”.
Oh, so we’re playing connect the dots. Senor Vick is now a sadistic prick! A sadistic filthy prick with not-so blazing 4.3 pad speed. Furthermore between dog fights Michael and I hook up for bestial sessions of man-man love. Okay. You got me there. The bulldogs and I no longer can count on the anonymity of the proverbial closet. I am gay and not only is Michael Vick my lover, I humped all 54 of his unhappy bulldogs, and the 7 dead ones too. My real name is Abner Louima, and I’m axe handle deserving. Come poke me.
I never said Vick was right to participate in bulldog fights, most especially since doing so threatens his highly lucrative football career. I am saying societal prejudices against dog fights borne from wierdos who project love for their housepets onto trained fighting bulldogs will likely insure the price Vick pays for his illegal behaviour will be way-excessive. Vick might as well have shotgunned every last dolphin at Seaworld in front of a full house of 6-year-olds. You irked pussies yodeling from your suburban mountaintops ain’t calling for the cruxifiction of Inuit who do, by the way, take axe handles to sled dogs who can’t pull their weight in dog meal, now are ya, you hypocrital Atlanta Falcon-hating flim-flam!
Free Michael Vick! Free Micheal Vick! Free Micheal Vick!
Comment by Jeff G. on 7/18 @ 2:24 pm #
“And Vick is a terribly overrated quarterback. Watching the draft this year, I kept thinking the Falcons were going to pick up Brady Quinn, given that Vick was under investigation for the dog fighting set up.
Which, by the way, we romantic antropomorphizers have convinced legislatures to make illegal. So. HOW YOU LIKE US NOW, BITCHES?”
Brady Quinn couldn’t hit a stranded Moose with a beach ball and he’s slower than a skin infection. He couldn’t avoid the stench of a fart, much less a pass rush. Quinn is NFL pine tar sporting an antropomorphizer’s fairy haircut.
Quinn in lieu of Vick? Are you trying to make Dan Reeves’ heart quit beating? That ain’t right, yo.
Screw Vick. Who cares if he is some rubberhead football queen. The man is a sadistic jerk. You, Thor, have tossed more red herrings and non sequiturs into the issue than I can count. That Eskimos cull their dogs is very different than putting two dogs in a ring and killing the loser.
By your retarded reasoning it would be great to have gladiatorial contests. How about it, jerkoff, two men cutting each other to pieces? Violence for fun is sick, period. As for the ‘pussies of surburbia’ crack, you are a dipshit. I hunt, a lot, was raised on a ranch in eastern Washihgton state, and am not squeamish about blood. I will not tolerate sadism, or retards such as yourself who promote it.
Comment by LionDude on 7/18 @ 5:44 pm #
“Mighty Thor,
I was merely talking about passing ability which, you would have to agree, is a fairly significant skill an NFL QB must have. I know the guy runs like the wind in every direction and has a cannon for an arm. But he also has to consistently hit the small “open windows†afforded by complex NFL secondaries to convert the third and 8’s to WR’s running out patterns, for example. A successful NFL QB doesn’t necessarily have to be fleet of foot (Manning, Marino, Montana) and/or can be an intelligent game manager without lofty passing/rushing stats (Aikman, Dilfer). Vick hasn’t shown an ability to do the latter, and his legs won’t consistently carry a team as a QB.
But since I’ve never played in the NFL and I dared comment or give an opinion without actually ever suiting up, feel free to call me a “ChickenFalconâ€Â.”
How comparable is Jerry Rice to Peerless Price? Roddy White to Micheal Irvin? Then why compare Michael Vick to Joe Montana, really now. Supporting cast and coaches do contribute to a QB’s success or lack thereof, wouldn’t you agree? Vick is a better QB than his passing statistics indicate, just as Marino was a better QB than his given foot speed. To be fair you have to think in relative parallels, rationale perspectives, etc.., and not bust on Vick with knee-jerk stat-speak.
Did you know Michael Vick and I are dating? I’m hand washing his jocks between posts.
Just throwing it out there because I thought it was interesting:
Comment by Mark on 7/18 @ 6:55 pm #
“Screw Vick. Who cares if he is some rubberhead football queen. The man is a sadistic jerk. You, Thor, have tossed more red herrings and non sequiturs into the issue than I can count. That Eskimos cull their dogs is very different than putting two dogs in a ring and killing the loser.
By your retarded reasoning it would be great to have gladiatorial contests. How about it, jerkoff, two men cutting each other to pieces? Violence for fun is sick, period. As for the ‘pussies of surburbia’ crack, you are a dipshit. I hunt, a lot, was raised on a ranch in eastern Washihgton state, and am not squeamish about blood. I will not tolerate sadism, or retards such as yourself who promote it.”
A real Eastern Washington State ranch hand! No! Whether you bob for apples in open tubs of bulldog blood or whether you parade down mainstreet at the butt-end of a two-man Rachel Corrie peace dove concerns me little, Johnny Appleseed.
Michael Vick is my lover. I am not afraid of you. And now I’m going to have to beat your ass.
Thor, you will have better luck beating your meat. You never saw the day, son.
Thor,
If he’s hitting just north of 50% of his passes after 6+ years in the NFL, face it…if you asked him to throw a Nerf ball into the middle of a large pit bull fighting ring as he stood right next to it, the trajectory would end up on Clinton Portis’s grill behind him while Portis was making his next bet. Peerless Price was a talented free agent before going to The Team Where Wideouts Die. Need I repeat that Brett Favre doesn’t need an Irvin, Rice, or Monk to hit 60+% of his passes?
Vick is easily the most overrated QB in the league whose star power was carrying his playing time with the hopes that he might make a highlight reel here and there with some amazing runs. Now that he’ll be a PR nightmare, his career as it used to be will most likely be over.
By the way, you’re supposed to wash his jock…not sniff it. Stop that.
PR nightmare? I wasn’t even a fan until today. Now I’m sniffing the center of his jock! You and that gang of Nazi pet lovers have given me a rebel cause. Fuck all if I’ll sit still while the good name of Michael Vick is sullied over a barking crap-machine with four legs, nevermore! It’s a travesty of human-to-animal valuation when 4.3 pad speed is reduced to an asterisk in a felon’s file. Who is raving mad? Me? No, it’s society and its allowance for a hierarchy of prejudice wherein a certain fighting bulldog owner with Herculean breakaway speed is tossed into a cage because the dominant majority in society free associates Fido with a needy child-like human including granting the rights thereof when, in reality, society is threatening a minority – OK, only one person in this case, but that’s a definitive minority – of skin-and-bone humans’ freedom of movement, that constitutionally protected pursuit of happiness be damned as well.
The moral majority’s oppression is as sickening as the rotten rumps of those bred-dumb dogs. The man wants to watch animals fight, so be it. Is that really a crime or is it just a sad testament to the man’s poor choice of entertainment. Is this really a prosecutable offense for which one loses six years of time in a jail cell, six full years of gridiron glory? It shouldn’t ought’a be. Penis envy is what this is about. Screw the dark hole of penis envy.
Could you two get a room?
Comment by Robin Roberts on 7/18 @ 9:18 pm #
“Could you two get a room?”
Would you be envious if we did?
No, thor, just less nauseous.
Michael Vick is not an NFL quarterback, period. He’d make a great running back, but he’s not smart enough or quick enough to read defenses at the lightning speed required in the NFL, and my grandmother has a more accurate arm. And she’s been dead for fifteen years.
It’s pretty scary that nobody in the NFL or on ESPN is willing to come right out and say it, even though they all know it, because it’s not PC to say it. They’re all scared to death of bringing up all the old ghosts of the days when black college quarterbacks were always turned into db’s.
Oh, and Thor and Al, you’re both screaming assholes and preening, poncy, pretentious twits.
Comment by CraigC on 7/19 @ 12:04 am #
“Michael Vick is not an NFL quarterback, period. He’d make a great running back, but he’s not smart enough or quick enough to read defenses at the lightning speed required in the NFL, and my grandmother has a more accurate arm. And she’s been dead for fifteen years.
It’s pretty scary that nobody in the NFL or on ESPN is willing to come right out and say it, even though they all know it, because it’s not PC to say it. They’re all scared to death of bringing up all the old ghosts of the days when black college quarterbacks were always turned into db’s.
Oh, and Thor and Al, you’re both screaming assholes and preening, poncy, pretentious twits.”
Give me 57 rounds of ammo and stand back as I preen, poncify and twitter away 57 bulldogs bred to do nothing but fight and crap. If Vick bounced one those pups off the concrete, well then, call it something academic, a false positive, misplaced motives, etc… Fighting Bulldogs – less filling, tastes great, in my book.
Sadly, you collection of weenies all sound like my ex-wife the day she wanted me to discipline Chopper, our yellow Lab. See, Chopper chased squirrels in our backyard. For years he stalked, attacked and tore after them squirrels only to twist his head all cute-like when the squirrels high-tailed themselves up the trees. But one day, one glorious day in the life of Chopper, he bagged a him a furry. So proud was he that he held the dead squirrel in his teeth and tried to enter the house, to show me his trophy, no doubt. But my bitch wife thought Chopper persona non grata, barbaric, in fact. She took a garden hose to him as he laid in the soft grass doing what Labs do to dead squirrels, lick, chomp, lick, chomp. Chopper stood his ground and merely moved away to a quieter, farther away spot and continued to lick and chomp out of range of the bitch with a water hose. Could the bitch let that stand? Oh no. So dumb ex goes over and tries to take the squirrel from his mouth. “With what,” you might ask. Her hand! Chopper almost bites bitch! Rare for a dog who’d let you hop on his back for a ride. So then I’m called in to sort out the resulting rumpus between dumb bitch and bad dog.
“Chopper is a dog!” was what I said as I refused to discipline. “You don’t take a fresh kill straight from a dog’s jaws unless you’re wanting to lose a finger, what’s wrong with your head, stupid!” Such are my people skills.
And what’s the moral here? Am I mister-dog-hater? Or do I, and Al, know what a dog is and isn’t? You people are clearly projecting traits not found in fighting bulldogs. You people are kidding yourselves if you think animal control thought twice before they marched Michael Vick’s, alleged, 57 bulldogs straight into the gas chamber. These things ain’t take-home and hug-type dogs! They’re biting machines meant to fight. Kill ’em. Woopdeedoo. It’s not like any of ’em are first round draft picks. HA, ho. I’m so…
And Craig, did you not learn anything from previous similar remarks made by Rush Limbaugh? Vick is waiting to happen. He’s got NFL caliber skills. Just wait and watch.
They were puppies once … and young.
So he had no choice in breaking the law?
Society’s oppressive treatment of Michael Vick is a prefect example of Derrida’s deconstruction in discourse. Animal cruelty laws are social structures built of foundations of nothing. You have a pet mouse and you have a pet snake. How is it cruel to feed the mouse to the snake when the snake would suffer without the mouse as food? Responsibility for a mouse’s sufferings is not yet criminal, yet the yet is key.
Dogs fight. Is it cruel to encourage what dogs do naturally? It might be cruel if one broadens the signified to that degree. But to do so by power of law, at the expense of one human’s freedom (one, for today, anyway), proves “cruelty” is defined by a greater social/political agenda.
Is it right for a majority to decide the binary between good and bad in respect to cruelty’s definition thereby creating a slippery slope in interpretation language. Why many here are comfortable allowing a privileged suburban class, the type of people who’d stick their hand in a dog’s mouth and angrily react at being snapped at, to oppress through power of social domination should be cause for alarm.
Are hate crimes actually cruelty crimes or the other way around? Is there, in reality, with or without dominant social oppression, any quantifiable method to measure hate or cruelty? I rest my case. The majority is oppressing Michael Vick’s good/bad binary with obvious prejudice. Cruel bastards you.
Go ahead, put 4.3 pad-speed behind bars over deranged dogs. He, allegedly, broke the law. No disputing that. And it’s your conscious, not mine. It’s not like Mr. Vick deserves better from social constructs than to be treated exactly like a dog. He’s only human, only trots at 4.3 in pads on turf. Over-rated QB, statistically speaking. $37-million in bonus money bigshot. Shackle him. Hang ’em long in the sun. Bastard. Castrate the prick! And Forget him.
Trapped in a world he never….
Ah, the fervent warbling of man love holding fast to the dream of Superbowls and Halls of Fame but destined to be left with miles of highlight films and an empty, dusty trophy shelf.
Keep the dream alive, mighty thor.
Now as regards to this whole Vick sloppy love thing, when you two are together do you drop the hammer?
I kid!
Well, the Left is trying to make any political philosophy other than their own illegal, so it seems to be getting there….
People fight too. And they guys who produced Bumfights went to jail for it. Right or wrong?
Oh, and in most human fights, the loser isn’t executed.
Comment by Pablo on 7/19 @ 6:49 am #
“People fight too. And the guys who produced Bumfights went to jail for it. Right or wrong?
Oh, and in most human fights, the loser isn’t executed.”
Bum fights may not be right, but is it wrong? Is it criminally wrong? I’m not familiar enough with the case to say.
Weren’t the Bums paid in fresh, nutritious meals from Taco Bell? Under given circumstances I’d willingly scrap with a bum over a “warm flour tortilla loaded with hearty beans, seasoned rice, a blend of three cheeses, nacho cheese sauce, zesty sauce, and Fiesta Salsa”. Personally I wouldn’t care to be a spectator to that sort’a action, but some people’s tastes are outside the bun, arf.
I’m OK allowing certain bums and dogs to fight. I’ll stick to that.
“Cruel” is frighteningly subjective and that’s the crux of what I’m saying.
Judging by the conviction and sentence, it is. Is inciting violence a crime? Is it immoral?
Allowing and arranging/promoting are two different things. Forcing is yet another.
All valid concerns, I admit. We were originally speaking of Michael Vick and his participation in the national sport if Paraguay, dog fighting.
Thor, I have no idea if this whole series of comments of yours has been satirical. If not, I find people like you tiresome in the extreme. You say the crap you do because you think it makes you superior and cool to be dismissive. The higher-order domestic mammals have cognitive skills including problem-solving and the ability to keep specific concepts in their minds over a period of time. More importantly, they have individual personalities. I hope Vick gets as much prison time as the law allows. And he still sucks as a quarterback.
Yes, I posted a few times in pure jest so as to yank the knee-jerk emotive chain. Guess what, I don’t care for Mike Vick much. Still I care for him exponetially to the 57th power more than I care about his stupid bulldogs, which are a threat to humans and hopefully already dead.
Dogs don’t count for much in the annals of history or humanity. Doesn’t mean we should be overtly cruel to ’em or any other animal, but they’re dogs. Draw a short staw on species day and guess what, you don’t get to be a human. Mikey Vick may get out of jail, go to Med school and one day hold your heart in his hands. Your dog will do well not to ruin your carpet.
Perspective my man.
With the Derrida parallel, I’m splooge on.
[…] I predicted in my initial post after Vick’s indictment was announced, a few people have begun rumblings about dog fighting […]
What type of football do you yourself play, or is it gridiron football?
Can I ask though – how did you get this picked up and into google news?
Very impressive that this blog is syndicated through Google and is it something that is just up to Google or you actively created?
Obviously this is a popular blog with great data so well done on your seo success..
American Football greats you should write about next!