From the Herald Tribune, “Many potential Padilla jurors unsure of 9/11 attacks blame”:
A significant number of potential jurors in the Jose Padilla terrorism support case say they aren’t sure who is responsible for the Sept. 11, 2001 terror attacks, many because they don’t trust the news media or U.S. government pronouncements.
“There are too many ifs, too many things going on,” one male juror said. “I don’t know the whole story.”
Others say they just don’t pay close enough attention to world events to be certain.
“I’m oblivious to that stuff,” one prospective female juror said during questioning this week. “I don’t watch the news much. I try to avoid it.”
As of Thursday, more than 160 people had been questioned individually since jury selection began April 16 for the trial of Padilla and two co-defendants on charges of being part of a North American support cell for Islamic extremists. A jury is expected to be seated next week, with testimony to begin May 14.
Padilla, a U.S. citizen held for 3 1/2 years as an enemy combatant, was previously accused of an al-Qaida plot to detonate a radioactive “dirty bomb” in a U.S. city, but that allegation is not part of the Miami case. Padilla is accused of filling out an application to attend an al-Qaida training camp in Afghanistan.
Before they came to court, each of the jurors filled out a 115-question form asking about a wide range of legal, political and religious topics, particularly their views of Arabs, Muslims and Islamic radicals. Question No. 60 asks for an opinion about responsibility for the Sept. 11 terror attacks, and many people said they don’t know.
“I’ve been surprised at the number of our jurors who don’t have an opinion about 9/11,” U.S. District Judge Marcia Cooke, who is presiding over the case and asks most of the juror questions, said Wednesday.
[…]
A small cottage industry of conspiracy theorists has sprung up among academics and others who claim such things as U.S. involvement in the Sept. 11 attacks, or that explosives planted inside the World Trade Center towers brought the buildings down rather than the jetliners that crashed into them.
In the Padilla case, it’s not so much conspiracy theories as the lack of any views at all.
To be sure, most jurors without a Sept. 11 opinion are aware that the attacks have been blamed on terrorists of some sort. But many seem unwilling to believe the conclusion reached by the national Sept. 11 Commission and the Bush administration, widely reported by news media, that blames al-Qaida and its leader, Osama bin Laden.
I suppose these potential jurors also remain unconvinced that the “Osama” who took credit for the attacks—and who keeps showing on audio and videotapes from time to time—is anything more than a CIA agent in a fake beard, and that subsequent attacks, be they in Madrid, or London, or Iraq, have also been part of a grand conspiracy cooked up in order to, what?—drive gas prices up to $3.00 a gallon? Create a huge partisan rift in the US? Who, exactly, is pulling the strings? Umberto Eco?
Perhaps the questionnaire should have contained a question 116: “In the history of the world, has fire ever been able to melt steel? No, seriously. Stop giggling, we’re serious here.”
Writes Ace:
If Padilla gets off not because of insufficient evidence but because of OJ Jurors who are determined to acquit because they believe in fantastical conspiracy theroies, the blame can be laid at the feet of John Kerry, Howard Dean, Michael Moore and the rest of the crew pandering to conspiracy schizophrenics.
They’ve had chances to repudiate these lunacies. Instead, they’ve encouraged them.
Which, while true, is difficult to blame them for: when your entire base is controlled by batshit loonies and conspiracy mongers; when your public “intellectuals” and academics are convinced that the President is trying to “shred the Constitution” and assert “unprecedented Executive power” so that he can turn the US into a theocratic police state; and when the only way you can gain power, given our current primary system, is to finesse your message in such a way that it appeals to such a constituency; then you either have to pander, or else stand up to your base and try to talk them back from the abyss.
For your efforts, you’re likely to find yourself in blackface, or excommunicated from the “progressive movement.” Which is of course precisely what any principled leader would choose.
But c’mon: we’re talking about the freakin’ Democrats.
To be fair, there are plenty of paleocons of the Justin Raimondo ilk who are just as passionate about wild conspiracy theories (generally involving Mossad, who is all powerful and everywhere, doing their sneaky Jew thing), but unless their craven phantasms are echoed by a reliable “liberal” source—Wes Clark and Jimmy Carter will each tell you all about how the monied Joooooos are pulling the strings in Washington, allowing the press to print such conjecture without attributing it to, say, David Duke—you won’t really hear about them.
Except, on occasion, in an Andrew Sullivan “reader email.”
Bottom line: it is an awful idea to turn what should be military trials over to civilian juries, particularly in a political atmosphere that has been so poisoned by craven misinformation and an advocacy media working hand in glove with “progressive” politicians in an effort to undermine the credibility of the President and his Administration in any way possible.
Should Padilla go free, we can finally say—and no longer with a hint of self-referential irony—that the terrorists will have won.
****
h/t Ace; see also, Newsbusters
People so simple minded that they can’t pick out the truth should not be considered for Jury duty. As a fact they should be considered for confinement in a mental facility, immediately. Where is the he** are they finding this many retards. Actually a UC study indicated that 48% or so of the American people needed mental health treatment. I thought it was only the 48% (of voters) that voted for a know traitor as president. Guess I was wrong again. It is 48%+ of the entire population.
Well, right off the bat, a juror selection process selects for people too stupid to avoid jury duty.
Umberto Eco?
Mr. Wisdom, may I call you Protein?
I’ve long admired your work from a distance, but now must express my not gay but fervent love for you (NTTAWWT). That reference was the straw that broke
backthe camel’s back.Many words in my mind, but your last sentence is, as you imply, the death knell. Hope is scant after that.
I thought about referencing Umberto, who is a smart man, but glad I didn’t. Preview is a good thing.
Oh boy, I hope not. I mean, The Name of the Rose was good stuff, and I managed to mostly like Foucault’s Pendulum, but, sheesh…he lost me after that.
Spare a little blame for the media as well. Notice that Curt can’t bring himself to assert any underlying truth, only gesturing in the general direction of the “approved narrative”:
…are the perfect jurors. Ask any trial lawyer, whose contempt for the trial by your peers is matched only by their cynicism in singing its praises…
MajorJohn:
Oh crap, I spoke too soon. I didn’t get past Foucault’s Pendulum. But I loved Name of the Rose…..the only book I read in highschool…
I find the saddest aspect of this is that I have lost my capacity to be surprised by this kind of crap.
hit and run,
Give it a try. Some of it was wonderful – some of it was too darn….something. It does have a worthy ending, I thought.
That’s the funniest thing I’ve read all day.
You are joking, right?
Please tell me you are joking…
OK, am not joking. Well, yes, I had a speed reading class which I chose some weird minor not memorable couldn’t possibly remember book. And I read it all. But I only chose it because the book jacket promised sex between some rocker and a virgin.
All other respectable books, I cheated.
As in, read a few passages, queried the smart kids and took the test to get my C.
Hey, I was a C average student. Maybe B-, I don’t remember. I don’t want to remember. But I did get an SAT partial scholarship, so wooohoo!
That, right there, goes down like a fine single malt: like Oban….
TW: western16. Like 16 Horsepower!? One of my favorite bands….
The terrorists have won… again? Man, six years of this. Geez, you guys, you’re creeping me out. How many times do I have to tell you: “[t]here is a Providence that protects idiots, drunkards, children and the United States of America.”
Three out of four – heck, four out of four compared to us Europeans – is not so bad. I’d say that joke we all repeat ad nauseum (because we don’t understand English as well as we think we do) that the US is God’s own country isn’t quite so funny anymore.
You guys’ll be fine.
Heaven forbid that even a misfit like Padilla should have “an impartial jury of the State.” That would be un-American..oh, wait a minute… that would be the 6th ammendment. Boy, those wackos who crafted those ammendments must have been unpatriotic. maybe they were liberals..makes me want to puke.
We can only hope that all terrorists are mental defectives like Padilla and that the government spends as much energy inhibiting them as it has trumpeting its case against him. I agree he’s a loser but he’s hardly the avatar of the dark forces that the hyperbolic postings above would seem to be imagining.
Hmm, this situation probably could have been avoided by capturing Osama back in 2003 and not invading Iraq. Oh well, spilt milk, etc. Purple fingers, bitchez!
d-mmit. I misspelled amendment again. I’ve lost all credibilty. I like neocons comment though.
Baudolino was a fun story. Easier to read than most of his work, but an interesting trip through medieval ideas about things and places everyone believed existed but that no one had never seen. Also a rather cynical take on miracles and relics. I totally believe that’s how many relics and miracles became part of history. (And I’m Catholic!)
MTR gives it two thumbs up.
Ours is a time of mass delusion.
When you get done pukin’, maybe you could read a couple history books before blessing us with further insight.
I am curious as to how this would make for more educated juries. Please elaborate?
Yes, I agree with some neocon and neitherrightnor left. A man who has plotted to set off a nuclear contaminated bomb among you should be pardoned in court by delusional jurors merely becuase some neocon and neitherrightnorleft refuse to come to terms with their deepy-seeded pathological daddy issues and curb their hatred of their own president. Allah be praised I love you westerners.
I also can’t help but point out that what neitherirghtnorleft is endorsing is only a small step from actually taking up arms against his fellow citizens. Perhaps he should send me a resume.
some neocon,
I believe your abilities to predict an alternitive past are matched only by your flawless record of predicting the future.
B Moe,
which history books do you (that being “you plural” since you say “us”) suggest?. Are you one of the hang-him-since-he’s-a-terrorist-and-get-a trial-later crowd? Or are you a master of irony like many of the posters on this site? The Umberto Ecco stuff is good, though; pretty subversive, actually– he was a multi-culturalist after all.
Foucault’s Pendulum and Gravity’s Rainbow are among my favorite novels.
My salvation? The recognition that they are works of fiction—not a couple of elaborate X-Files.
You’ve obviously never read his books.
‘Foucault’s Pendulum’ is an allegorical tale about what happens when you disregard an author’s Original Meaning and start deconstructing text–or history: it all becomes nonsense where everything and nothing is true.
Like the world you inhabit.
The title is a play on words also recalling Michel Foucault who codified this curse of meaninglessness and made it seem virtue.
It’s subversive in that it actually defends the Western Ideal of reason and ridicules loopy conspiracies.
You just keep parroting that filthy leftist schtick and searching for the Masters of the World….
stop foaming at the mouth TGOAMAZ. I’m pretty sure I dind’t mention “my president.” I’m also pretty sure that as an American citizen, Padilla is entitled to a trial by “an impartial jury of the State” as the constitution states.Surely as an ardent patriot and supporter of the constitution you would agree with that basic fact. I’m also pretty sure that I’m not part of the jury so I doubt that whatever verdict they reach will have anything to do with me. I hope that if I were on the jury I would try to fulfill my obligation as a citizen to hear all the evidence and follow the instructions of the judge and my conscience and render a just verdict. It seems probable to me that he is guilty of something but he doesn’t exactly seem like the evil mastermind type. Interesting point you make about “taking up arms against fellow citizens”..I hadn’t been really been thinking of it, but do you think it’s a good idea? you better be careful with your answer or you might be considered a terrorist ring-leader.
Jeff, I’d be interested in your opinion of justice adapting a professional jury pool.
I’ve heard the idea advanced on talk radio, mostly revolving around senior citizen types(employed through vetting) receiving a just compensation.
I like the idea, but it would take careful crafting to pass constitutional muster.
Citizen shysters, if you will.
Gray,
I think Eco’s professorship in Italy was in anthroplogy and his program had a multicultural leaning. In the context of this obviously right-leaning blog that’s enough to be subversive.You’re a little touchy there. Are you being self-aware in a post modern kind of way with your consecutive references to “loopy conspiracy theories” and “filthy leftist shtick?” or do you just say “filthy leftist” every time you get heated?
Lee, if it gets to the point where we can’t trust Americans as jurors, I don’t see how this whole Representative Republic thing is going to work out all that well.
Garbage in, garbage out.
Course, at the very least, the American people collectively get what they deserve, since they voted for it. Doesn’t seem all that refreshing to the individualists, however.
How is expressing shock and disgust that a large portion of a jury pool believes, even a just little, in wacko “contolled demolition”, “black ops” or “Bush knew!!!” conspiracy theories in any way denying Padilla a fair trial? Does believing the White House might have had a hand in 9/11 define “impartial”?
Or are you just another juvenile troll leading a invincible! strawman army?
There are a lot of journalistic weasel words in this piece that avoid giving us any idea of exactly how many of these people there are:
”Many potential Padilla jurors”
”A significant number of potential Padilla jurors”
“But many seem unwilling to believe the conclusion reached by the national Sept. 11 Commission and the Bush administration”
I think the most reasonable conclusion is that the Padilla jury pool has a fair number of ignorant and stupid people, which is hardly a surprise. The article certainly doesn’t support the notion that the jurors have been bamboozled by Michael Moore, abetted by John Kerry(?). Quite the opposite:
In any event, this seems a bit hasty:
Unless he didn’t fill out that application or doing so is not a crime under the relevant statute. Then the rule of law will have won.
Based on recent history of highly publicized cases, if Osama bin Laden were put on trial in a civilian court in any big US city, I think it’s even money he’d walk.
Hey Moops, I gave you your history lesson on the Cambodia thread.
Your welcome.
TW: training68
Training 68ers to do what? Breathe?
*you’re!
See here, f’rinstance.
Decent observation there Moops, now why don’t you take that little lesson in critical analysis and apply it consistently to see what the MSM has been peddling; except that might cause you to question alot of deeply held assumptions.
The problem with the current situation is that a month long trial can be financially devastating to allot of ordinary Americans, so the bulk of our peers vigorously avoid jury duty, leaving the dregs to fill the pool. Attorneys will tell you a jury trial is a crap shoot. Having a professional jury may make the process more consistent and fair, and maybe cut down on plea bargains, if the accused feels they will get more than a toss of the dice from a trial.
I don’t know if it’s the answer, I’m just asking a question.
Should have been a Multiple Choice question, that’s what these guys are used to.
“I think the WTC was blown up by
a. Moshe Dayan
b. Mrs Thatcher
c. George Tenet
d. A bunch of Saudi terrorists”
Rosie and Dean??
……………….Bye.= TG
Morning, wingnuts! Hope you’re enjoying your Eco chamber.
Jeff, typical troll regurgitations aside, posts like this are why I read your blog.
That’s a fact82.
What do you call something that is neitherrightnorleft?
Road kill.
TW: but that’s your choice19
”…do you just say “filthy leftist†every time you get heated?
Posted by neitherrightnorleft | permalink
on 05/03 at 10:44 PM”
Well, in my case, I calmly and rationally call them ‘reactionaries’ or ‘reactionary leftists’.
Rarely do I use the term ‘treasonous, anti-American, bottom feeding fascists’. Even if it is true.
One that discusses the jury pool the founding fathers established from which the Sixth Amendment was to apply.
Hint: They didn’t have a system that picks random dunces off the street in mind.
Can you imagine being the poor sap who has to read the essay question? Or process the FAFSA?
Urgh.
I’ll just respond to these banal assertion with a WTF? We don’t know Padilla is GUILTY of anything except being in John Ashcroft’s sights. News flash: this is not libertarian. American citizens don’t get picked up at airports and for three years without charges or trials JUST because the President or AG said “he’s a bad guy.” Why do I even have to say this. This is American civics 101; hint: “we are not like them.”
Geez, one wonders at the authoritarian bent of “libertarian” cons, who will believe the administration without a shred of proof and argue American citizens should be tried in made military tribunals. To then turn around and lecture the rest of us on discernment? That takes balls.
Geez, one wonders at the authoritarian bent of “libertarian†cons, who will believe the administration without a shred of proof and argue American citizens should be tried in made military tribunals. To then turn around and lecture the rest of us on discernment? That takes balls.
I think the point is that if Padilla goes free BECAUSE the jury is so misinformed and ignorent and believes so deeply in outrageous and easily debunked leftist conspiracy theories (a la “Loose Change”), then it is an indictment of the MSM and Dems b/c they have not only failed to repudiate such garbage, but they have, to some extent, actively endorsed such garbage and pandered to such garbage.
In other words, if he gets off on basically a jury nullification b/c the jury buys into the theory that 9/11 was an inside job and Padilla is being set up, then there is a real problem.
And, this goes generally to our current understanding of the Jury system, wherein we seem to believe it is more desireable to have the most uninformed and uneducated people be jurors on a case – which was never the founders’ intent.
I don’t think anyone is saying that if the Government completely fails to prove its case Padilla should still be convicted.
So, I think that a lot of people are arguing apples and oranges on this thread.
TW: hold16 Sometimes, when I’m home alone, I hold all 16 in….
That’s right. They picked him up because they had reason to believe he was up to something that would have killed a whole hell of a lot of people.
And as I said back when he was picked up, I really don’t see how his citizenship or the place where he was picked up, matters. I think there’s a war on, and if Padilla did what they say he did, it means he’s on the other side.
That makes his case military, not civilian. And I’m pretty sure the 21st-century U.S. military doesn’t stand people up against the wall without being sure they did what they’re going to be punished for.
Timmah breezes in and, if you really read his post, Padilla is only guilty of being am Ashcroft target. Does he read the shit he types before he presses submit? Sadly, no.
Clearly, Padilla was an innocent goat herder minding to his flock, before the thecrats armed with prejudice and the Patriot Act set their sights on him.
The “Moby“‘s are tiresome, no?
…sometimes I overdo the understatement.
An epidemic of amnesia as the AFP can’t remember that it was Venezuela that spawned Carlos The Jackal.
So.
Who wants Pop-Tarts?
I’m going to side with timmyb, sorry.
But only because I’m working on the assumption that American citizens are presumed innocent until proven guilty. I am not unaware of the charges that have been brought, I think they’re pretty serious and probably true. And I do agree with Jeff that his case should never have been put in civilian court, but it was. So now you have to deal with civilian juries and what they have to say. And let’s be straight, I wouldn’t trust what someone said during jury selection if my life depended on it, and someday it may. I’m betting that the half people who are saying that they don’t know what happened on 9/11 are full of crap and are betting that by looking like nuts they will get dismissed by one side or the other, the other half think that by pretending to be ignorant, they’ll get a good, juicy trial instead of some arcane IRS BS.
I grew up in a house that had a shrine to Bobby Sands and the Guildford Four. I am keenly aware both of how a criminal can use the system to become a political martyr and how a politicised system can be corrupted against the innocent. Holding this jackass without charge did the govenment no favors. And frankly, puts what evidence that they have in doubt. At least to me.
However, I believe we are in a war. In my view, if they really thought they had this guy dead to rights, he should never have left Pakistan. In a war, you only capture people who don’t need killing. Padilla was going to blow up a dirty bomb in the US, he needed killing, right?
So I’m schizo on the issue, where were the “secret prisons” when we really needed them?
And let’s be straight, I wouldn’t trust what someone said during jury selection if my life depended on it, and someday it may. I’m betting that the half people who are saying that they don’t know what happened on 9/11 are full of crap and are betting that by looking like nuts they will get dismissed by one side or the other, the other half think that by pretending to be ignorant, they’ll get a good, juicy trial instead of some arcane IRS BS.
This goes to another hobby horse of mine, that there is no longer any shame in America. there is no sense of personal shame, and communities do not shame people. Thus, people are free to do or say whatever ridiculous thing they want for whatever reason. Thus, no standards of behavior, ethics, or civic responsibility.
the only shame left is the shame of losing “street credibility” as demonstrated by the “stop snitching” campaign.
the fact that an adult would openly and publicly say that he/she believes in the “Loose Change” conspiracy theory, without any sense of shame, is pathetic.
The fact that we will allow such people to make inmportant decisions, such as being a juror, is pathetic.
I’m not against the presumption of innocence, nor against making the government prove its case. I am against allowing absolute idiots to serve on juries, or in any other capacity that affects society.
OT but now I’m on a rant. The idea of the 60’s and 70’s was that getting rid of “shame” or judging other people would allow everyone to be happy “doing their own thing.”
Instead of ending up with a “happy” and self-fulfilled populace, we ended up with no vehicle to enforce personal responsiblity. If a community can’t shame or judge someone else for their acts, there is absolutely no vehicle to make people accountable for their choices, outside of criminal law (and maybe civil liability).
Sorry, end of rant.
Don’t forget venereal disease…
Don’t forget venereal disease…
While I understand this was meant in jest, I don’t think that even verereal disease acts to make people responsible for their own actions anymore. There’s herpes commercials on TV during prime time for crying out loud.
It’s perfectly acceptable to have these diseases now. Hell, in some communities, certain such diseases are a badge of honor and make you a martyr.
No. I am serious about crapping on loopy conspiracy theories and their believers. I do believe that leftists and their cant are filthy…. Ha.
Great Banana is correct. I was not saying if Padilla goes free for any reason, we will have lost the war on terror. I was saying that if he goes free because people have been fed conspiracy theories, and so might deadlock a jury to protest what they think is the unreliability of the “official” story, we’ll no where to point the finger of blame.
Also, Umberto Eco is a professor of Semiotics at the U of Bologna (or at least he was while I lived there). He is a strong adherent of CS Pierce’s semiotic theories, the model, some believe, for Sherlock Holmes.
Where that neitherleftorright creature gets his info from is beyond me; Eco ran from Mussolini, and so I suspect he’d recognize in the cult of multiculturalism plenty of problems that harken back to fascism.
Eco is not quite an intentionalist (unless we talk about the “intention of the text”), but if you read his debates with Jonathan Culler (collected in Interpretation and Overinterpetation or his Six Walks in the Fictional Woods, you get a pretty good idea about his fidelity to the utterer/author.
know
I love it when Jeff says I’m correct.
Suckup.
With you around LMC, how could we?
I’m just sayin’ is all…
It’s been said that only around 50% of the electorate votes in presidential elections, and the number is far lower in off-year and/or regional/local ones.
It is probably a safe bet that the dimbulbs described in Jeff’s post are part of that non-voting segment of the populace. And for this we should all get down on our knees and thank God, Yahweh, Beelezbub, RALPH! the Great Cosmic Muffin, or whatever deity floats your boat.
Clearly there is a goodly percentage of the population that has no business anywhere near a voting booth, or as we have seen, a jury box.
Jeff, I have no idea what the hell you just said or who you just referenced. If someone could translate for me.
Sorry, I’m from Red State flyover country and need things explained slowly using small words.
Clearly, Padilla was an innocent goat herder minding to his flock, before the thecrats armed with prejudice and the Patriot Act set their sights on him.
The “Moby“‘s are tiresome, no?
Posted by JD |
If by, “goat herder” ,you mean drug dealing, murdering, gangbanger from Chicago. Then, yes, he’s innocent.