Though certain anti-war commenters have shown up demanding I address yesterday’s testimony by Kevin Tillman and Jessica Lynch (among others) before the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, I don’t really have all much to say about the Waxman-orchestrated anti-Administration PR gambit that I haven’t already posted elsewhere. Instead, I’ll just quote from Powerline:
There is no question that the initial misreporting of the circumstances of Tillman’s death was stupid and improper. The claim of a government conspiracy to cover up the facts, however, is ludicrous. If you read the fine print in the [AP story, “Ranger alleges cover-up in Tillman case”], you find that Tillman died on April 22, 2004. His family was told that the cause was friendly fire on May 29, 2004, barely a month later. The same day, the Army publicly announced that friendly fire was the apparent cause.
So once the facts became clear and the matter rose to a level above the commanders in the field, the Army publicized the result of its investigation. For the Democrats and Kevin Tillman to try to make political hay out of this one-month delay, three years after the fact, casts them in a worse light than it does the Army.
PAUL adds: Bill Otis puts it this way: “Congress uses Pat Tillman’s death in the service of securing the very defeat Tillman correctly saw would be a disaster. The irony of such behavior is outstripped only by its venality.”
In the case of Tillman—and I’m basing this on the reports of his death and the testimony of his battalion mates on ESPN’s “Outside the Lines” documentary on the firefight in which he was killed—there is no doubt in my mind that he acted heroically, though his death was tragic. And his actions were no less patriotic for his having been killed by friendly fire.
In Lynch’s case, she is reluctant to call herself a hero—noting that others who fought in Iraq were the real heroes, particularly her roommate Lori Piestewa, who was driving the ambushed Humvee, and who later died after being taken captive along with Lynch.
Whether she wants to acknowledge it or not (which is not all that unusual, incidentally), for her service, and for having survived her captivity, Lynch is indeed a hero —as are those who rescued her (remember, PIestewa and other POWs were videotaped and shown on al -Jazeera). And early reports that she fired on her captors —the “proof” that Lynch was being exploited by the US military—were immediately questioned in the blogosphere and eventually dismissed by liberals and conservatives alike.
The only “fiction” here is that there was some kind of carefully orchestrated cover-up—which in itself is the very kind of “propaganda,” albeit of the anti-war variety, those who are pushing this story claim, cynically and repugnantly, to be outraged by.
Quite. I wish Waxman would rather try to learn why and how clannish the Rangers can be – but that wouldn’t serve the narrative that it is Booosh who lied, lied, lied!
Cripes, we (where I was stationed) knew what had happened to SPC Tillman fairly quickly, but we also knew that there would at least be AR 15-6 investigation before anyone could say anything officially with any certainty. The same happened for other blue-on-blue incidents too (I remember one poor kid getting all but sawn in half by a .50 cal going off as it was being placed on an aircraft down in KAF). And all without conspiracy yammering either…
As for Lynch – I rather think the press, TV and radio latched onto that story and hyped it to the skies – and now we get “it’s the Army’s fault we were hyperventilating”. I can only imagine their coverage if she had been somewhat plain and stocky…
Bah.
One of the hallmarks of the current anti-war movement is to turn everything they dislike into a “cover-up”. Never mind the facts; it’s all a cover-up!
Abu Ghraib, for example, was initially spun as a “cover-up”, with demands to know when people found out about it. I think there’s still a bit of that spin out there, but it largely fell by the wayside because the investigation was revealed, in a daily briefing to the press, when it began.
Every case of a US serviceman mis-behaving is spun as a cover-up, despite the facts usually coming out as the result of an internal investigation.
And to continue a comment I made to the previous post, they treat the reporting of incomplete information as a lie, as part of the cover-up. When the military initially reported on Tillman’s death, they were reporting on incomplete information. After the investigation and complete debriefing, they made their discoveries public. Yet there’s supposed to be a scandal because the first public statement wasn’t 100% accurate.
Great point, Rob C.
And remember, they support those corrupt, coniving, covering upping soldiers!!
Benefit of the what?!? Doubt?
That’s just a cover-up of the trooooth!!
All I can say is if the quip about Washington, DC, being “Hollywood for ugly people”, Waxman has to be the hottest starlet of the Beltway.
PS Thanks for banning timmyb, Jeff. It was overdue if you ask me. Your forebearance with the twit was remarkable.
And remember: If you lie about A Koran being flushed down a toilet, and people are killed in the riots triggered by your lies, then it’s the fault of the troops who didn’t actually flush the Koran. Somehow. But you support those didn’t flush the Koran, it ain’t physically possible anyhow troops.
This is the work of people that I am supposed to regard as being ‘progressive’!?!
Major John: You said “As for Lynch – I rather think the press, TV and radio latched onto that story and hyped it to the skies – and now we get “it’s the Army’s fault we were hyperventilatingâ€Â.”
I think the Katrina Coverage, especially the exploits of Shep “LOTF” Smith bears out the truth of that statement. A sort of Alec Baldwin rant where the Army is blamed for the media looking bad.
A month to get a 15-6 done on a death, with the glare of publicity on it, hardly counts as a coverup. It’s a small miracle, given the layers of review it undoubtedly went through: I bet every general officer in the CoC took a hack on that one.
I can also understand why a battalion commander would tell soldiers to keep their mouths shut while the investigation was ongoing. The last thing you want, if it does turn up any evidence of culpability, is the suspicion that the whole process was tainted by the media circus.
Hey if any of you morons see Kevin Tillman around, tell him to look me up, I would love to buy him a beer.
Pretty piss poor coverup if it lasted all of a month. Keeping one’s mouth shut about an ongoing investigation is SOP. This is just the ongoing scandal mongering in an attempt to gain power. The Dems ideas are bankrupt, they can’t win arguements, so this is what they have to do instead.
Re: Henry “The Nose” Waxman
Even a blind pig finds a truffle occasionally. Porcine-faced congressmen, eh – not so much.
Waaah! You’re questioning their patriotism! (sarcasm, of course)
Gibert Gottfried (with glasses and moustache) would be perfect for the lead in Mr. Waxman goes to Washington and Investigates Everything He Can Get in Front of a Camera For.
That’s a working title, of course.
. . . and that’s Gilbert, of course.
This is a strategy, infidels, this war cannot be lost by simply trashing the administration. The soldiers must feel the left’s lash as well.
Henry Waxman ran this circus?
But I thought that Nostrildamus knows all and sees all.
Kevin Tillman is the director of the Pat Tillman Foundation. The Foundation is teaching young people how to combine leadership with marketing savvy. No word if Denise Brown has agreed to appear as a guest speaker.
Right. But we have a “cover up” of information that has been in the public domain for what, 3 years or more?
Ummmmm…..maybe my irony-counter isn’t properly pegged these days, but I hope you’re not suggesting that anything that’s been in the public domain can be said to be covered up.
of course things in the public domain can be covered up. the economy is a good example
So true.
There is no such thing as a cover-up.
It just shows how deranged that whole “the WMDs were moved to Syria” crowd is.
Like W was planning a war with Iraq due to Saddam’s WMDs, and somehow our leader forgot to keep his eye on where the WMDs were and they moved to Syria without us seeing them.
BTW, SGT Ted is right too.
The Dems need “ideas”. Like starting a war with a country that is no threat to America whatsoever.
While they are at it, they should come up with a way of having the war burn through our Treasury, turn world opinion against us, and cost thousands of soldiers lives.
Tha there’s some ideaing.
Who said that? Or is that a strawman you’re trying to light?
The former republic of Yugoslavia? Haiti? Sudan?
You guys want a second try on that last one!
”…cost thousands of soldiers lives.”
Gosh, Robert, one might almost think you care!
BTW, are you keeping a count of dead terrorist fuckwads, as well?
Hint: after 4 years of war, mere “thousands dead” is something of a world record for efficiency. Compare to 4 years of Nam, Korea or WWII.
I believe there were skirmishes in the Civil War that resulted in more dead.
Of course, the Democrats were against that one, too.
Like Darfur or Kosovo. Thats more up their alley.
SIlly troll, they don’t need a war to do that. They have Universal Healthcare and all sorts of other things to spend the money on.
Yea, like the opinion of nations that don’t allow free speech or are fond of Sharia law really matter here. And please Mr Troll, don’t pretend you give a shit about soldiers, except to wave body parts around while you advocate surrendering their fight for them.
So, according to Jeff, a hero is:
1. A person who has served in the United States Military
and/or
2. A person who survives incarceration.
Funny, I had a different definition in mind. Something about taking deliberate action to risk one’s life for one’s country, or for the sake of another person.
Maybe we should come up with a new word like “doublehero” to describe people like this.
I almost forgot the third part of Jeff’s definition of Hero:
3. A soldier who successfully completes a rescue attempt in the course of duty, no matter how simple or routine.
I think there may be a bit more meaning to strip from this word yet…
You have a point to make, Ajax?
Shall I spell it out more clearly for the sarcasm impaired?
Perhaps there’s such a thing as too much sarcasm? Yes?
Just take off your hat.
My point is that words should have clearly defined meaning. If someone is a hero because they joined the military, or because they survived imprisonment, or because they died in a plane crash, then what use is the term any more?
Jessica Lynch is right to say she’s not a hero. From what I understand, she was not even able to fire her weapon at the enemy who attacked her. This doesn’t make her a bad person, but it certainly doesn’t even put her in the running to be a hero.
This destruction of the definition of “hero” has been going on for some time in this culture, and as you can see, it’s a pet peeve of mine. I’m a bit shocked to see Jeff fall in line with it.
Deconstruction?
Soldiers who go to battle for us are heroes. To them, they are just doing their jobs. But to me, they have signed on to protect our freedoms. And they’ve done so voluntarily.
I consider that heroic. You likely consider that your “right”. In fact, you are so convinced of their proficiency that you don’t truly fear international terrorism or the spread of Islamism. Which is why you feel comfortable enough to sit back and use the comforts and freedoms provided you to denigrate the service of those who guard it—if only by your willingness to downplay the sacrifice of giving time voluntarily to the defense of your country, often at the expense of being away from your family, and constantly risking your life in a hostile environment.
Of course, no where did I say that there aren’t differing degrees of heroism—which is why we give our highest honors to those who prove most selflessly heroic. But sometimes you can be a hero simply for volunteering during war time. Which Tillman did.
And are you really prepared to say the there are “easy” rescues in a war zone where you don’t really know yet who are your friends and who are your enemies?
My, that hindsight must save you from an awful lot of guilt, Ajax.
I thought SPC Tillman rather an extraordinary person. If his end was an awful blue-on-blue incident, that should not diminish what he originally did – walked away from adulation, fame, millions of dollars to go do something hard, dirty and dangerous.
His brother’s politics or marketing firms or whatnot aside, I just remember that.
Jeff,
Wow, Jeff, you sure gleaned a lot about what a piss-poor American I am from my definition of heroism!
I’ll be having a talk with my patriotism tonight, for sure!
When you are explaining heroes to someone called Ajax, something has gone off the rails. I still think hero boy’s brother, who also served, is kind of a wanker. But I thank him for his service. Ok, not really. I think he’s a tool.
You owe me a keyboard, Moe.
SB: system49
Already? I lost count at V…
Happyfeet,
He didn’t explain heroes to me, he just told me that since I don’t agree with him, I’m an America hating jerk.
Ajax, I think where we’re running into trouble is where, in your initial statement, you write:
I don’t want to speak for the whole peanut gallery here, but I fail to see how your definition and Jeff’s differ. If you can explain to us how volunteering to serve with your country’s armed forces during a time of war is not “taking deliberate action to risk one’s life for one’s country,” I think we’d be obliged.
Jessica Lynch signed up as a noncombatant (and acted that way when the time came), and I don’t know whether that was during a time of war or not, do you?
And it’s one thing to sign up, another to take conscious action that you are fully aware may result in your death. Many people learn they are cowards only when directly faced with enemy fire.
I think it’s an insult to true heroism to define it down in this fashion.
Ajax, personally I think Pat Tillman was just sort of a weird kid. He was not my hero. I really only know a bit about him, so it may have been some overwritten journalism crap that skewed my impression of him. I don’t see how this matters though. Pat Tillman is something that might come up in a couple decades from now when you need a little yellow or brown slice of pie or whatever to complete your little wheel of trivia. But the Democrats are just really desperate and sad to dig up Tillman and drag his poor blinkered family away from their foundation work and have them do their monkey dance in front of the cameras for some Weekend At Pat’s remake with bonus scenes featuring NPR-ready faux outrage and a cameo by the-girl-who-was-not-raped.
I don’t think I called you an America-hating jerk, Ajax.
I simply noted that you seem to view heroism romantically; which is a convenient fiction that downplays the sacrifices of all who join a volunteer military, knowing that they may one day be asked to put themselves in hostile environments.
The cynics on the left often note that they do this because they have no other life options, or because they just want to get a free college education out of it.
With some, I suppose this might be the case. But with most, I suspect it’s because they believe in service to a country that provides them with such a high standard of living and an abundance of freedoms (attempts by the nannystate to take them away notwithstanding).
I don’t think I’ve defined “heroism” down. I’ve conceded that their are some acts that are more heroic than others. But there are some professional baseball players who are better than others, too—which doesn’t make playing in the major leagues any less of an accomplishment.
Jeff Goldstein wrote:
I thought the usual claim was to complain that you were questioning his patriotism. Ajax might want to check the script…
Now that about made me choke – since before I enlisted back in 1985 there have been no “noncombatants”. Back in the day the Ivan Speznaz were going to come out of the woods and get you. Then it was going to be some Serb paramilitary jerk with an AK popping out of a ditch in Bosnia, later it was a Talib with an RPG, etc. See also Scuds falling on Pennsylvania ARNG tents in GW I, Khobar Towers, USS Cole…
The folks I have administered the oath to all knew there was a risk to soldiering – especially when they joined post 9/11/2001.
As regards Jessica Lynch, I reckon there was some wishful thinking going on as well.
There’s this elusive thing called “morale” or “unit cohesion”. One of the major components of that, as with any group, is having a mythology. Soldiers need the bull sessions in order to develop and share the myths that make them a group, a unit, rather than a mob, and it’s important that the myths endorse and support behavior that’s valuable in that context and deprecate acts that aren’t.
At the time Pvt. Lynch got tossed in the soup, having women in combat (even unofficially and de facto) was still a new and fragile thing. The Army badly needed some “kickass gurrlz” stories to be shared over mess trays and pinochle games, because if they didn’t get them the mythology was going to revolve around sexual adventures and helplessness. If the initial hype had been well-founded it would have been a marvelous myth-kernel.
Real ones came along later, of course—Serena DiVirgilio, Ashley Pullen, and of course Leigh Ann Hester, among others, and I reckon Piestawa gets an occasional mention. As a confirmed cynic, I would have given Hester a Bronze and let it be known on the grapevine that the acts really merited a Silver. The story of the chick who kicked ass and only noted the names afterward, but the brass wouldn’t acknowledge it, would be incredibly valuable to the advancement of women’s status in the military.
Regards,
Ric
Jeff,
“America hating jerk” was an unfortunate choice of words, and an incorrect characterization of your post, hyperbole gone too far. I’m sorry. The rest of it I stand by (except maybe the excessive sarcasm early on).
I disagree with your characterizations of my motives. I am not engaged in an attempt to make myself sleep better at night by belittling the sacrifices of the American soldier.
You got me right at one point, though. I am a romantic – and hero is a romantic word that conjures up images of the best man is capable of. I won’t apply it to Jessica Lynch, and I’m sure if the media had some romantics on staff, they’d find a true hero (or a more heroic person, if you prefer) to focus their attention on, rather than Lynch.
I don’t know all the details of the Tillman case, but man did that guy LOOK like a hero.
I graduated from Arizona State, ROTC DMG commissioned 1990. I used to watch The Cardinals play when they stunk.
My 6 month old son’s middle name is ‘Patrick’.
Pat Tillman’s actions were heroic and noble: he eschewed fame and riches in a game to play in The Real Game, The Big Game….
I just hate it when the coaches/players/announcers use war terms and metaphors in sports parlance: “It’s a real battlefield out there on the xteenth yard line!”
No it’s not, dumbass. Those pampered thug millionaires wouldn’t last a day on ‘a battlefield’. It’s a game. Everyone goes home in the end, even if they lose….
The stupidest thing I ever hear is Military Commanders using sports terms mimicking coaches mimicking Military Commanders: “Falluja here is like the Superbowl! We are leaning forward in the foxhole moving the ball down the field!”
05s and above seem to be the most affected by this unfortunate malady. Major John, you know what I am talking about….
Ranger Tillman got shot up by our own guys in a confusing situation. It happens. It’s a painful transition from peacetime garrison army to wartime field army.
People get killed in all kinds of ways….
“Which is why you feel comfortable enough to sit back and use the comforts and freedoms provided you to denigrate the service of those who guard it”
Is there any way to talk about heroism (and not) without using these “comforts (i think a more accurate term is rights)? I guess he could pull a kevin tillman and go fight. That way he’s not sitting back. Or route via a foreign country. that might help a bit.
“PAUL adds: Bill Otis puts it this way: “Congress uses Pat Tillman’s death in the service of securing the very defeat Tillman correctly saw would be a disaster. The irony of such behavior is outstripped only by its venality.—
Didn’t Tillman think the Iraq war was wrong or illegal?
Gray – I hear you. I think that if/when I get to LTC next year sometime next year, I shan’t forget whence I came. Of course, I was an 11B PFC back in the day…
Of course, if I ever use the term “leaning forward in the foxhole” without heavy sarcasm being involved, feel free to hunt me down and pimp slap me.
Nuance.
Layers of nuance.
The nuance comment was for emmadine, Major John.
Hahahaha! Well, he was a hero and performed a noble sacrifice for his country, but he was still a junior enlisted soldier.
I don’t think I would trust him on foreign policy, geo-political strategy, brain surgery or semiotics.
Jesus–the greatest fault of the progressives (among many) is the irrational belief that expertise in one thing conveys expertise in all things.
That’s why they will listen to actors about politics, politicians about science and scientists about morality.
Dumbasses….
“I don’t think I would trust him on foreign policy, geo-political strategy, brain surgery or semiotics.”
The point was we can’t take away this lesson: “securing the very defeat Tillman correctly saw would be a disaster.” If you want to think its because he’s not qualified to think that. Not qualified to decide which wars are stupid and which ones arne’t, in ways tha disagree with others on the interwebs. Fine. But that wasn’t my point.
Did he? Is there information available that shows that?
To continue my threadjack:
I’ve come to think that because ‘liberal ideas’ confer instant recognition of genius, nuance and good taste on the thinker that it is the stupidest of people who are drawn to The Left.
Stupid people are drawn to The Left in much the same way that the shittiest drivers are drawn to Volvos:
The safest car for the shittiest drivers/the ‘smartest’ ideas for the dumbest asses.
Of course the filthy leftists can’t recognize heroism or courage, if they had any they wouldn’t have flocked to the gutless one-size-fits-all leftist philosophy!
It’s a true statement: The filthy leftists in congress wish to secure defeat in Afghanistan as well. Otherwise they wouldn’t be using Pat Tillman’s unfortunate death to make political hay. The fuckers.
How petty and small-minded! Embellishment of heroic war stories in order to inspire people is an ancient literary tradition going back to Homer’s day, if not earlier. One is not supposed to take them literally. Jessica Lynch and Pat Tillman represent photogenic archetypes of our brave fighting men and women. While the stories told about them may not be literally true, they portray a larger “big picture” truth, which is entirely valid. Reasonable people understand this. If Waxman and company think they can make hay out of this to advance their nefarious schemes, they will be sorely disappointed.
“Did he? Is there information available that shows that? “
According to a guy that served with him (hero, moral authority, etc…) yes:
Comfortably denigrate away. I mean, he was an atheist! shudder.
“It’s a true statement: The filthy leftists in congress wish to secure defeat in Afghanistan as well. “
Fo’ real!
Which goes to show it’s not what you say, or what you feel that makes you a hero: it’s what you do.
Another thing the Left cannot grasp….
There’s lots of people that never got invested in The Patrick Tillman Story to begin with. That’s not to denigrate him, Emma… it’s just that there was a war on at the time. Big Picture stuff was afoot. Not everyone was keeping up with the People magazine version.
Well, that’s important.
Maybe our troops should ditch that heavy body armor in favor of Captain America costumes.
But where would they put the burrito?
He also kind of looked like Johnny Bravo with a unibrow.
Just sayin.
Little noted because it ran only once in the LA Times and then on the back pages, poor Jessica Lynch has a colostomy bag. Due to sexual assaults on her by her Iraqi captors which was extraordinarily brutal.
Piestawa was of course beheaded by the Iraqis.
FWIW, the hard-core Special Forces units that rescued her considered it an honor to get her to safety, and were exceedingly angry about what was done to her.
That to me says it all. I thank both PFC Lynch and the late Pat Tillman for their service in protecting my ass. Sincerely and from the heart.
If Congress wants to do something they ought to thank both, formally. All else is BS IMHO.
Jim—funny, don’t seem to remember hearing any outrage about that. Almost as if some people don’t give a rat’s ass about war crimes when they’re not politically useful.
Ajax, you ARE an american hating jackass. That felt so natural, so good coming out.
Why do you suppose he gave up a multi-million dollar football contract to go serve under him?
Pablo, I’ve read a pretty good bit about Tillman. Apparently he thought that way, his big goal was to meet Noam Chomsky when he got done and you know what? He’s still a hero. All that is true and fair enough. But that still doesn’t make the actions surrounding his death a fucking campaign issue which is all it ever is with these shitbirds. It all comes down to this folks. Either we got a bunch of crazed goat/boy fuckers running around dispensing as much hell fire as possible on civilized (To us) thought. Or we got a bunch of wise religious whatever you wanna call ‘ems who are beyond us in enlightenment. I vote for goat/boy fuckers. And yes Jeff, anybody who joins the military knowing they’re being sent off to war is a fucking hero. I got three nephews over there (Well one right now, (2) of them are home for their 14 day leave’s and just happened to be put on the same plane back, how cool, they didn’t know about each other till they met up). I and my brother (A hero from the first gulf war) look at them in awe. They don’t seem so uh…stupid anymore (You had to know them). Ajax, you’re a fucking shit head for thinking otherwise.
“Why do you suppose he gave up a multi-million dollar football contract to go serve under him?”
Suppose? I speculate that he, like a hero, sees service to the nation as different than support for a politician. Or, like a hero, sees a difference between what is happening in afghanistan and Iraq. Or he could have joined as a total bush cocksucker and then changed his mind about bush. But that is all speculation.
Why do you suppose? Do you think its because Tillman actually has some point of view which you think fits in bettter with the image of him thats in your head? Are you really trying to advance or hang on to the idea that these aren’t his views?
“Total Bush cocksucker”. Emmadine you’re a very bad word, and no he wasn’t. I still call him a hero and you a very bad word…rhymes with hunt.
It doesn’t really matter what Pat thoughts were about the Iraq war being “illegal” as it wasn’t illegal. He was as wrong about that as any moonbat lefty kook.
And why are Pat Tillmans opinions any more noteworthy than the thousands of other troops that disagree with him and Noam Chomsky? Because him being dead allows lefties like Ajax and emmadine and that shitbird Waxman to *use* his corpse to bash the war and those of us that support it. Fucking vultures all of you.
But, he still did his duty in upholding the oath he took. Which makes him an honorable man, unlike the pukes in Congress who, after voting to authorise the the war, run away from their word when it benefits then politically.
Donald,
Is that guy who tried to frag his officers by rolling grenades into their tents a hero? he did sign up, after all.
You may reply with the invective of your choosing.
No, he’s a traitor dude. jeez
And I am not a lefty, SGT Ted. Believe it or not, it’s possible to be rabidly right wing and define the word hero differently than you do.
Well, you make equivalencies that lefties are prone to making. Just saying..
And to beat a dead horse, SGT Ted, I was speaking about Jessica Lynch, not Tillman, and I certainly did not bash the war, so stop arguing with the boogeymen in your mind.
Yea I went back and re-read your posts. Mea culpa on lumping you in with the lefties. I agree with the Lynch not being a hero in the classic sense.
Hey the horse is still twitching. pass the bat over here…
Maybe I should just sign up to be a lefty, since the essential characteristic of that concept on this blog appears to be “one who denies that every member of our armed services is by definition a hero”.
But on the other hand, I guess I define lefty differently as well.
I had a talk with my patriotism last night. It told me I’m a hero for braving the interstate every day in service to the American Internet.
Damnit, I had to go and get snarky right as Ted replied so nicely to me. Please ignore my previous post, I was asking for trouble but I don’t really want it. It’s too nice a day. I love you all, really.
You’re just jealous because the voices talk to me.
It is also possible to disagree about a definition and not be an asshole about it, the manner of your dissent is why most assumed you were a progressyve.
“It doesn’t really matter what Pat thoughts were about the Iraq war being “illegal†as it wasn’t illegal. “
It matters to people making this point:
“Congress uses Pat Tillman’s death in the service of securing the very defeat Tillman correctly saw would be a disaster.”
Because it shows that those people aren’t just “fucking vultures.” But that they’re also plain old wrong.
You are correct B Moe – I could have made my point much better. Next time, I will.
This has gone beyond being tiresome.
Some active combatants in the American Civil War and World War II held negative opinions about the ‘legality’ of both wars. In both conflicts, many who served HATED Lincoln or FDR. Others railed against how it was being fought. They were not elected, Lincoln and FDR were. In the end, some of them lived, others died, some resigned, some deserted, some declined to re-enlist and the Commanders in Chief during both conflicts prosecuted the war efforts. Please note that the oath that American service personnel now take is related directly to a reaction from the upheaval in the miltary during the American Civil war, crap you’re trying so hard to encourage now. We now swear to defend the constitution from all enemies, foreign or domestic, and to obey the orders of the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States of America.
If you don’t like that, don’t enlist.
Put more simply:
Definition of U.S.M.C. as I was taught it.
U. Signed. the Mother*******. Contract.
Thus far, much hay has been made on the results from a mail in poll run by a Gannett chain paper, which is about as accurate as the texting for American Idol, and the second hand words of a corpse. There’s over a million active duty service personnel.
For those who claim to be so eager to hear the true words of the misused moppets, try running a survey outside of the Lancet, and see what you get. I’ve heard of surveys in the past, but all of them were inconveniently poilitcally incorrect, in that the majority of those surveyed, particularly those deployed, were supportive.
The re-enlistment figures for the units doing the majority of the deployments seem to bear this out.
Before we had an odd debate on the meaning of the word hero. Perhaps we can now debate the relative value of two pieces of data: the negative comments attributed to someone who can’t verify them, because he’s dead or the re-enlistment figures for an entire mechanized division (US 3rd), which can be verified.
“According to a guy that served with him (hero, moral authority, etc…) yes:”
Ah, a second-hand source. How convenient.
Uncle Sam Ain’t Released Me Yet.
“Ah, a second-hand source. How convenient. “
The guy is dead. there is no more first hand source.
No letters he wrote home? No tape or video of interviews where he expresses these sentiments?
There may not be any more first-hand sources, but it’s still possible for first-hand sources to exist after someone’s death.
Ajax, as the man said, the grenade guys a traitor. I don’t care what you are politically, I’m for the people who are brave enough to step up in an important time to do serious things. You attempt from your soft perch to cheapen them. Let’s try disingenous fuck.