From The Times Online:
Security sources believe that a man arrested in last week’s anti- terror raids in Britain is Al-Qaeda’s leader in this country.
Home Office officials say that one of those arrested is suspected not only of masterminding the foiled plot to bring down up to nine transatlantic airliners, but also of involvement in other planned atrocities over the past few years.
They believe that he was instrumental in sending the ringleader of at least one previous British terror plot for training at a camp in Pakistan last year. He is described by counter-terrorist officials at MI5 as the senior figure in a British terror network involving Kashmiri, north African and Iraqi cells.
Scotland Yard believes that the plan to bring down airliners involved up to 20 terrorists who were planning to smuggle liquid bomb components in hand luggage onto nine British and American passenger jets.
Their targets were planes leaving Heathrow and possibly three other British airports later this month.
[…]
The FBI has assigned 200 agents to follow up any leads that come out of the British investigation. Security sources said that separate surveillance operations by police and MI5 were continuing into a variety of suspected plots by other terror cells.
These included plans, said to be in their early stages, to target ferry ports, the railway network and the London Underground. Police say they are also stepping up patrols at some mainline railway stations.
A senior transport security official said: “The question is: have we got everybody? If they are going to find airports too difficult, the railways aren’t a bad second choice.†However, he emphasised that there was no specific intelligence that the railways were under imminent threat.
Police sources claimed yesterday to have seized “high grade evidence†including chemicals, documents and a video during last week’s raids in east London, Birmingham and High Wycombe in Buckinghamshire.
They believe they have arrested “the ringleaders, the technical experts and the foot soldiers†behind the plot. “The leadership was very professional,†said a police source.
The investigation into the suspected Al-Qaeda leader in Britain and his UK associates was considered by Eliza Manningham-Buller, MI5’s director-general, to be the security service’s single most important line of inquiry.
He is suspected of being behind two “pipelines†which saw potential terrorist recruits being sent for training at camps in Pakistan and to join the “holy war†in Iraq.
The Al-Qaeda leader  who cannot be named for legal reasons acts as a suspected hub in a network of extremist groups. These include Kashmiri and north African groups based in this country. He is linked to a second suspect also in Britain who has “played a major role in facilitating support for the Iraq jihadâ€Â.
A third associate is an Iraqi who came to Britain in 2004 and worked on providing support for British extremists who wanted to travel to Iraq to fight the “holy warâ€Â.
MI5 said he acquired weapons in preparation for an unspecified attack in Britain. He was detained in January last year pending deportation to Iraq.
The British leader’s suspected links with other Al-Qaeda figures in Pakistan have been the subject of intense MI5 scrutiny since last August.
It was the arrest of another associate in Pakistan last week that prematurely triggered Operation Overt, the counter-terrorist plan that is said to have foiled the transatlantic airliner plot.
Contrary to claims by the Pakistani government, the arrest was not anticipated in London. There were also conflicting reports about the reasons for the suspect’s arrest.
One Pakistani official said he had been under surveillance for several weeks following a tip-off from Britain. He was said to have been monitored visiting radical imams and seminaries that had been linked to terrorism. The official said he had travelled to some of the same places as Mohammad Sidique Khan and Shehzad Tanweer, two of the July 7 bombers.
Some of those arrested were reported to have travelled to Pakistan to engage in charity work following last October’s earthquake.
John Reid, the home secretary, reviewed the security situation when he chaired a further meeting of Cobra, the emergency committee which is co-ordinating the government’s response.
Although police say that they have arrested all those they wanted, the country still remains on “critical†alert. This means that MI5 believes that a further attack could be imminent.
The Metropolitan police said 23 people remained in custody last night. One person was released on Friday.
The origins of Operation Overt are said by some American officials to have begun in 2003. However, the full-scale inquiry is not thought to have been launched until last August when dozens of surveillance officers were assigned to monitor the British Al-Qaeda leader’s home.
A Pakistani official close to the intelligence services there was reported yesterday as saying that there may have been a British mole planted by the security services inside the terror cells in the UK.
Two of those arrested last week are said to have visited Pakistan in the months before the planned attacks. They are said to have met Matuir Rehman, an Al-Qaeda suspect and specialist in explosives.
After the two Britons returned to this country, they are believed to have received a wire transfer of money.
Pakistani authorities say the man arrested there last week had fled the West Midlands several years ago. He had received training in explosives at Al-Qaeda camps along the Afghan-Pakistan border and had organised Al-Qaeda funding for the organisation’s leader in Britain.
One agent said he had been under surveillance for several weeks following a tip-off from British intelligence which had been following up several Pakistan-related leads from its investigation into last year’s July 7 bombings.
It was British detectives who uncovered the role of the man arrested in Pakistan last week and tipped off their Pakistani counterparts.
In addition to confirming Iraq’s centrality to the GWOT (whether you believed it to be so under Saddam or not, the facts now suggest that the flypaper theory seems to have some merit), what this shows is that behind the scenes intelligence—particularly multi-nation intelligence sharing—is proving far more effective in weakening al Qaeda than some would have us believe.
A serious question that I believe worth posing now to the civil liberties absolutists (and the gay marriage proponents posing as civil liberties absolutists): should the leader of Britain’s al Qaeda be given what amounts to Geneva Convention protections / domestic civil liberties protections—especially in light of the recently foiled plan designed to bring down a score of airliners? Or should the forces allied against Islamic terror be making other arrangements for his questioning?
This is no longer the hypothetical ticking nuke question; instead, this is the capture of a man who, as AJ Strata notes:
would have information on financing methods which might avoid detection and the same with communication methods. This person will have knowledge on active cells and those who support terrorism from a safe distance (feeling concerned Mr. Galloway?). This person will also have contacts up the chain and probably to his peers in other EU nations.
How much of our “moral authority” or the “souls” of western liberalism is that kind of information worth?
And this is more than a simple academic question. The British security gauge remains pinned to critical, suggesting that a second-wave attack may still be in the offing. And as Ed Morrisey reminds us:
[the airliner plot arrests shed] some more light on the 7/7 bombng plot that British authorities chalked up to home-grown amateurs last year. According to the Pakistani official, the arrest came after the suspect visited the same radical imams and mosques as Mohammad Sidique Khan and Shehzad Tanweer, the 7/7 bombers. That could just be coincidence—or it could indicate that Khan and Tanweer had direction and support from AQ for their attacks as well.
That brings us to the concern of a “second wave”. The 7/7 plot was followed closely by an abortive attempt for a repeat two weeks later. AQ also plotted a second wave of attacks in the US after 9/11 but got surprised by the quick grounding of the airliners and tight security restrictions afterward Security officials in Britain worry that the plotters who escaped may yet try a second wave even though the first failed.
How much should MI5 be willing to do to find out just if and what that second wave attack might be?
Is it okay to value the lives of your own citizens moreso than the fillip of righteousness you feel when you refuse to cross certains lines with respect to interrogation? And I’m not even talking torture necessarily—or at least, I’m not talking about torture as it stood before it was defined down to outrages on personal dignity.
How far should our leaders—sworn to protect us, not to burnish their own “moral” bona fides—be prepared to go? And just how “moral” is it to allow a unyielding code of morality stop you from perhaps preventing the deaths of thousands and the suffering of tens of thousands?
Discuss.
(h/t AJ Strata and Craig C)
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update: Ace has more.
I still question the timing!!!!!
TW: expect.
I expect the left will still pretend Bush has made us “less safe.” And of course give him no credit in the matter.
As far as necessary.
TW: Waterboarding is a good start.
Turn him over to Jack Bauer…I sure a certain amount of sphincter modulation would occur immediately!!
Jeff, e-mail Andrew Sullivan…his response should be interesting.
This is not a snarky question: Assuming that the guy is convicted, why not use drugs? Wouldn’t they be the most effective way of extracting information, (TW), period?
T&T
No. He wasn’t even in a declared combat zone.
How far to go with this creature? As far as necessary.
Has the CAIR seething started yet? Ignore it.
Follow the protocol that elicits the most information. If it involves sex with 72 virgins, try that as well!
Torture that forces him to say anything would be counterproductive, in my unprofessional opinion–drugs, I would imagine, would be best, yes.
I believe the proper term for what lengths should we go to in order to prevent a massacre of innocent people should be along the lines of -“Red is positive, black is negative”.
Whenever I ask people the torture question and frame it in a “if 9/11 could have been prevented by torturing someone, is it worth it?” 90% of the time you get “of course”.
As well you should. These are madmen commited to our destruction, they do not fear a strongly worded resolutions or economic sanctions. They only fear losing. And that means we need to do what it takes to win. Period.
Anything less is a complete failure of the president to perform his most vital job, protect American citizens.
Hasn’t it been established that waterboarding did work on a high level AQ? If so, because “torture doesn’t work” it follows that waterboarding is not torture. QED. Carry on Bobbies!
I’d draw the line at torturing his family in front of him. That’s bad (unless, like Jack Bauer, you can arrange a convincing fake performance.) Other than that, anything goes.
We should use their religious fanatacism against them like the Brits did in India in the 19th century. Pig hide, pig blood – no ticket to the virgins.
Make ‘em squeal like the pigs they fear.
Come on guys! After Abu Ghraib we can’t really torture these guys. It makes people “hate” us.
So I suggest some gentle hazing instead: dress him in lace underpants, put him on a leash, and let some blond chick from Arkansas walk him around the block.
That’ll get him to talk – unless he is an S&M fetishist with calloused knees.
-Steve
State sanctioned torture is wrong, not for what it does to the victim, but what it requires of its citizens. I do not want otherwise good and decent people to be compelled to participate in such barbarities (I’m talking real torture, not the merely unpleasant, or – heaven forbid – undignified.)
That said, if some interrogators are a little overzealous, maybe get carried away and do some permanent damage, well that’s unfortunate and not something we can really approve of, but that doesn’t mean it was sanctioned. Nor should the perpetrators be treated too harshly – consider the ‘victim’ and what he did to create the circustances. Maybe a little desk time to reconsider the appropriateness of their actions.
What, not Manichean enough for some?
For some reason my TW is two words: suicide pact
Damn thing’s writing my answers for me.
Of course my proof that waterboarding is not torture is invalid because torture does does in fact work.
But it might confuse a dumb moonbat or even convince one with a logical mind. The first is common the latter is rare.
Hasn’t it been established that waterboarding did work on a high level AQ?
Indeed it has.
TW: farm. As in “the farm.”
You’ve got to be kidding.
How do you do it Jeff!??
What do civilized people owe to barbarians?
Nothing.
2 hours in a “gen pop” prison w/ non-terrorist prisoners being offered reduced sentences for every truthful item uncovered.
I think it’s a situation to use one of Clintons good ideas. Letting one of our, ah, less constained allie countries do the questioning.
You know, people that are good at it, experianced. Guys that really enjoy their work. Say, a baltic state, or Saude Arabia, or even some of our Iraqi police squad friends.
Anyway, I too think the line should be drawn at involving the families of the barbarians, not before.
Does anyone remember the old Tucker Telephone? I’ll bet Ma Bell has a few of ‘em in storage somewhere. Maybe we can find a few old guards from Parchman Farm and convince ‘em it might be fun to come out of retirement.
Time and Tea, as far as I know, truth serum is pretty much a myth. If you know you’re being interrogated, and you’ve had training, it’s not that hard to resist, or at least confabulate your answers to meaninglessness.
IIRC, MKUltra found the most valuable drug tested was cigarettes with mixture of tobacco and marijuana. It loosened their inhibitions without them actually knowing they were in an altered state of consciousness.
TW: myself. As in, I wouldn’t know anything about this, myself.
Psilocybin as truth serum? Could it work? Make him see the light? Is it even torture?
It is “required” that all fields be filled in
Gotta love the story about British authorities bracing for riots in the wake of these arrests. Muslim riots.
Apparently there’s a considerable number of them who think killing is a religious right.
Slow burning det cord wrapped lazily around the body starting at the left foot, completely around the limbs and torso, going to the right foot and then back up to the gonads where there sits a very small amount of C-4. Probably get all the answers you want before you light it, but on some hard cases it might get up to the left arm…probably would never reach the target.
Questions….questions….questions.
Andrew Sullivan, “Red” Ken Livingstone and George Galloway could not be reached for comment.
I seem to remember a certain scene from “The Serpent and the Rainbow”,involving nails, a hammer and a chair…..just don`t use that shitty Noriega soundtrack on them. That was totally inhumane. As far as leaning on some asshole to spare any(not even many) innocent lives, ya gotta do what ya gotta do.
Just back from LGF. Two of the “ British “ bombers apparently wanted to smuggle liquid explosives onto airplanes in their babys` bottled milk… ALONG WITH THEIR INFANT!!!!!
As far as the “methods” arguement goes, fuck `em , what ever it takes.
TW: Congress.
Well, yeah. Not back ‘til September. Fortunately/unfortunately.
Though we can bend it, we do have the 8th Amendment . . .
Torture in front of him?
Nah probably not.
But the West (the part that isn’t actually made up of cowards and appeasers that is,)should make it known throughout the world that ANY, ANY Terrorist attack may allow you to “get your virgins”, but that doesn’t mean it’s over. No, your family is gonna be dead, everyone you know is gonna be dead, everyone that ever even heard of you is dead, and when they are all gone, then we will go down to your equivalent of the county courthouse, pull out any record you ever existed and erase them all. We will EXPUNGE you as if you never even existed, and if there are any left on the planet that remember you, they will curse your name for all eternity for what you have caused. Make it plan to these barbarians the gloves are off.
SGT, passion is one thing,common sense,another.
What the issue here is ACCOUNTABILITY, personal accountability.Do not drag innocent bystanders into choices made by others on their behalf. Leave family and friends out of this.
Squeeze him dry. The Brits know how.
Time to break the money trail, I think.
SB: length
good question
I cannot forgive myself for missing the obvious snark – “So when did Scotland Yard pick George Galloway up then?”
The Russians had only one person kidnapped in Beruit. They found out who did it and deposited a relative of one of the kidnappers (I think it might have been a wife)on the sidewalk dead as a stone. The Russian’s guy was back the next day, and that was the end of Russians being kidnapped.
Patricia,
CAIR in the Bay Area have been in a hissy fit since the exposure of the plot and especially with Dubya’s dead-on “Islamic Fascism” comment. On the local news, a covered female CAIR member remarked that those two words “should never be said together”. After all, news footage of local mosques in Fremont, CA show men (and boys) peacefully praying. So what’s there to be afraid of?
The Contra Costa Times isn’t afraid. They slapped the Lamont victory on the front page. The foiled plot details were given a few small paragraphs on page A12. I guess they see the attempt to destroy the Democratic Party as more important than attempts to destroy commercial airliners.
After 9/11, I suggested to friends that we should kill bin Laden’s family. They were horrified at the thought.
Recent events make my suggestion seem a bit more sensible, I think.
why not use drugs? Wouldn’t they be the most effective way of extracting information, (TW), period?
Drugs eh? I think I’m going to have to rethink this whole ‘terrorist’ thing.
Every time “ideals” become more important than lives, people die. That’s not a condemnation of wanting to perserve ideals but our ability to reason and to see the association of events needs to be part of decision making.
As wrong as it is for a Islamic extremist to embrace ideology to the point where he will kill indiscriminately, it is equally wrong for us to embrace “human rights” to the point that we will allow others to be killed indescriminately.
So should we drug, shock, water board or otherwise torture people? No, of course not. It’s wrong. Should we allow thousands to die because we are unwilling to drug, shock, water board or otherwise torture people? No that is worse. So, sometimes, we have to be willing to do wrong in order to do what is right.
That may be painful and dirty reasoning to justify the means to an end but I’m not Denzel Washington, this isn’t “The Seige” and those dead bodies won’t be extras who get up at the end of the shot and go get a sandwich. I know that a lot of people protest the war and things like that with the condemantion of “Not in my name.” Well, if it’s the moral score board that has to be watched in this: “Do it in my name.” I’ll take the karma for it.
Absolutely.
Let’s see. He is not a member of a recognized military. He wears no uniform. He displays no sign or flag signifying his status. He is engaged in guerrilla warfare operations against a State.
Under the Conventions he is an illegal combatant. His protections extend to the right of a summary execution.
No argument here.
And why even limit ourselves to terrorism? there are many deadly and harmful crimes out there. Why only cross lines for one of them?
Where have you been actus? Did you cross a line that lead to a beating, or a cell?