Here are a few practical questions to consider as we hope for the best and prepare ourselves for the worst: does al Qaeda in Iraq believe that any public exploitation of the death and/or torture of American soldiers is likely to help their cause—either in terms of recruiting or in terms of winning the support of Iraqis? More importantly, will it?
Similarly, how are Americans likely to react to any such public spectacle—provided, of course, that the mainstream western press even allows us to witness it; because it is equally possible that they will elect to protect us from the barbarity of our enemies, choosing instead to re-run pictures from Abu Ghraib and Haditha in order to provide some context.
And finally, will the Congressional anti-war crowd try the familiar “yes, but” formulation, arguing that the capture and execution of American soldiers—while it cannot and will not be tolerated—is nevertheless reason enough to withdraw our troops? Or will they recognize that Americans are likely to be outraged—and that any attempt to politicize such an event could potentinally marginalize them in the run up to November elections?
In all of Zarkie’s alleged comments about recruiting and support and the like, I don’t recall seeing anything approaching a downside to executing infidel soldiers. So if they are captured and not rescued, I’d say it doesn’t look good.
And you know that, while we can’t possibly be allowed to see 9/11 video, because it’s too soon, images from the execution of American soldiers will be all you see for the week thereafter. With Murtha narrating.
Money quote:
How can you lose to that? Why would you want to surrender to it? We’ve already won.
Here’s hoping those boys get free and safe quickly.
Does Joe Lieberman count?
The press (by and large; the local media here has been forced by reality of a local story) has done an incredible job ignoring the fate of Matt Maupin, and burying the fates of the various murdered hostages. Instead, we keep hearing about how horribly jihadis are treated when in American hands.
I expect no different in this case.
I am beginning to wonder if most of them care that they are marginalized. Just keep riding the outraged victim wagon, job security and never anything tangible to be held accountable for. Pretty sweet gig, really.
Let any hair on those boys heads get so much as misplaced on TV and the internet; God only can guess at the outrage of the warmongering American public. I want to see them torture the kidnappers on TV, and not sissy-ass panty-turbans and human pyramids, but them hanging from the ceiling, lots of broken glass to play with, and ooodles and oodles of time.
HOW do you surrender to it? It doesn’t stop, unless you paint Habib the Mad Bomber (check out my prices!!! I’m insane!!! 20 people killed for 72 raisins!!!) on the wall. This kidnapping, and damn them if they do any more, only sets them back. It only hurts them, but there is no head, and no strategy, and so they keep doing it.
Will urine-stained war bloggers use this tragedy to blame the real retard behind the Iraq fiasco (Bush) or will the urine-stained fear mongers use this to argue that “hey, we may torture and murder Iraqi detainees, but at least we don’t kidnap them! Let’s level the city!”
This isn’t the first time that U.S. soldiers in Iraq have gone missing.
Maupin is different because he was seen to be taken captive. As yet no one knows what happened to these guys.
“concerned citizen” seems really concerned about these tow GIs, don’t he?
“More importantly, will it? “
After the MSM polishes up the story, probably.
“Similarly, how are Americans likely to react to any such public spectacle”
The right:Damn those terrorists!
The left:Damn George Bush!
“And finally, will the Congressional anti-war crowd try the familiar “yes, but†formulation, arguing that the capture and execution of American soldiersâ€â€while it cannot and will not be toleratedâ€â€is nevertheless reason enough to withdraw our troops? “
Of course. If we are “losing”, thats a reason to withdraw, if we kill Z-man, it’s time to withdraw because our job is done. Nothing that happens in Iraq is going to change the moonbats decision that we must withdraw.
“Or will they recognize that Americans are likely to be outragedâ€â€and that any attempt to politicize such an event could potentinally marginalize them in the run up to November elections?”
Hahahahaha, damn you Jeff…my sides ache…hahahaha
JEFFY!
I looked in the paste cupboard and all the paste jars were EMPTY! I also found your Odie paste spoon in the cupboard. You know how too much paste binds you up.
Also, have you gotten a job yet Jeffy? You father and I would like to think we didn’t go into debt for your education just so you could sit around in your underwear playing on the internet while your wife supported you.
And you never call!!
Love,
Mom
So they should show their coffins being unloaded at Andrews AFB? Sounds like a good policy.
Actus + crowbar + screaming = good time.
I’m not joking.
The more successful Democrat strategy seems to be jumping ahead of the Republicans and stunting the issue. “Anyone who would use the deaths of these fine, brave young soldiers to score cheap political points against those of us who think the war is wrong…”
Jeff Goldstein’s Mom,
Dude you are soooo funny. Let’s check the lefty retard JG insult checklist to make sure you covered your bases:
1) Refer to eating of paste. Check
2) Inquire as to employment situation in order to feign concern over whether JG is working. Check
3) Make fun of being stay at home father. Check
4) Reference to penis. Not included.
5) Make reference to lack of Phd (if possible try to include the phrase “failed academic”). Not included.
Looks like you missed a couple genius.
Hey look, I found a letter from Jeff Goldsteins Mom’s Mom. Let share:
Jeff Goldsteins Mom,
Hi honey I hope you are enjoying living in the nice group home we picked out for you. I hear it has internet access, how’s that working out? Anyway, I know after you graduated from the special school last year you vowed never to ride a short bus again and when you found out that was all the school had you were very upset. I hope you have calmed down and they have been able to stop making you wear the crash helmet and full padding around all the time. It’s no shame to ride the short bus like your mommy always told you your special to me and that’s all that counts.
Love and Kisses,
Jeff Goldsteins Mom’s Mom.
PS. I hope you’ve got that chronic masturbation problem under control but if not don’t forget to use your lotion, remember last time you forgot your little pee-pee looked like an overcooked cocktail weenie with extra ketchup.
Hey, Concerned. You seem to know a hell of a lot about urine stains….
This whole paste eating thing has gone beyond surreal. Are all these people really that devoid of any semblance of irony?
Or humor?
Or intelligence?
Yes. To all of the above. Now, do you have any difficult questions you would like answered?
Oh…and, especially on this thread, IGNORE ACTHOLE
The anti-war left’s response:
1. “See, if you’d listened to us, Chimpy, and withdrawn the troops, they’d have been at HOME and this never would have happened….
2….and besides, they only got what they deserved for being dumb enough to join Rummy’s War Machine.”
/God, sometimes parodying these people is too easy.
Oh, and before I re-enter lurk mode, this is for “Concerned Citizen”: if Bush is a retard (and really, why use a disability to disparage someone? what about the COMPASSION, y’know?), what does that make The Frenchurian Candidate? IIRC, GWB left Yale with a higher GPA than Johnny-Boy.
TW use: The left would be a lot less retarded if it bothered to use logic instead of insult to argue.
Great.
Jeff posts about a serious issue… and wonders how the left will spin it. So rather than articulating a dissenting opinion, or showing us that the left does care about the troops (and these soldiers will probably be treated in a way that makes Abu Ghraib and Gitmo look like Club Med… the Afghans used to video themselves raping and torturing Russian captives… then they’d mail the video to the kids parents. Nice people eh? Religion of Peace and all that)But instead of some sort of response that says “praying for those guys” or even “God I hope we find them soon… and by the way I am outraged Bush put them into this”
You attack Jeff personally.
Couldn’t you put aside the hate for one mildy patriotic moment (how much of a patriot do you need to be to just “think good thoughts about our soldiers”)?
Sad.
true colors
OT:
Must Read……..
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/1/20/231252.shtml
Well, if there’s a silver lining in all of this, it’s that Al Qaeda and the Sunni insurgents have both scrupulously abided by the Geneva and Hague Conventions, so we know our solders will be well treated, will get plenty to eat, and will be able to practice their religion while in a nice, clean facility, and will get their pay and Red Cross packages.
Unlike certain other hyperpowers run by a chimp that we could name.
/MSM off
I think people need to learn to distinguish between jobs that are done out of the home, and unemployment. For instance, I have 4 jobs right now in addition to taking care of my kid.
So mind your own business, Mom. THIS IS MY LIFE NOW!
This is bad. Hopefully calmer heads will prevail, the soldiers’ plight will be milked as propaganda for the dwindling approval of the “street,” and the soldiers will just be dropped off somewhere. One can hope. Based on what I read in the blogs of Bagdhadi citizens, people are getting tired of this brutality shit.
Will the Red Cross be called in to check the condition of the captured soldiers? Will the convicted criminal felon (had to throw that in from another blog) George Soros-funded Human Rights Watch provide documentary and photo evidence of any mistreatment? Will the ACLU weigh in demanding that the captors follow the Geneva Convention? Will the UN and the EU demand that the captives be held in nice facilities and Bibles provided?
Ah, well, making fun of the Lefty idiots only takes you so far, doesn’t it?
TW: mother. I bet Jeff’s mother is as proud of him as my mother is of me. (Took me until I was 52 to get my PhD.)
I am really sorry that Americans and Iraqis are dying in this war. I know I send silly messages to this blog, but I do it because pains me to see people trying to legitimize Bush’s misguided strategy every day just because you think it is patriotic. We should have tried to build more international support to go after bin Laden – especially with Pakistan- to marginalize and trap the al qaeda leadership. Instead, Bush goes into Iraq and does exactly what OBL wanted and said he would do. Now the United States can no longer fight from the moral high ground. If these soldiers who may have been kidnapped get their necks cut open, the responsibility would lie not only with the mujihadeen but also with the President.
um, no, because it’s right. Personally thought we should have gone into iraq’98 when sadaam kicked out the inspectors, something about breaking a cease fire agreement.
Hmmmm.
@ Jeff
Will liberals whine and bitch about how the color tvs at Gitmo aren’t big enough and don’t have HDTV while we are subjected to videos of soldiers being murdered?
Frankly I’m sick of the whole whiny bullshit crap about terrorists. They’re terrorists. I don’t give a flying fuck what happens to them. I don’t care if their Korans get pissed on. I don’t care if they get hung upside down and a red-hot poker shoved up their ass. And I certainly don’t give a shit about any of the whiny bullshit liberals have been crying about with regards to treatment of terrorists at Gitmo and elsewhere.
IMHO What I’d like to see is how long these fuckers last in the general population at Rahway State Prison or Rikers.
As for me though. Next time a liberal wants to complain about how prisoners are treated, they can kiss my fucking ass. It’s time we stopped pussy-footing around terrorists *and* liberals.
They don’t like it? Aim your fucking lips at my posterior.
Delusional jerk alert! Squaaaaaawwkkcchh!
I think the liberal media response will be ‘see we told you so. Now two more american boys are going to die.’ The smarmy left will once more presume to speak for the dead.
If the jihadis that took the soldier were smart(don’t hold your breath) they’d hold them as bargaining chips.The other hand is to murder and bury them and then get the hell out of dodge. They know at this point that to harm them will be to have every american service man and woman in iraq looking for them. And if caught, well, war is hell.
Concerned citizen. I’d love to explain the strategy of being in Iraq and Afghanistan, but I don’t think you have the capacity to understand.Now go and change your pants. You stink.
I know I send silly messages to this blog, but I do it because pains me to see people trying to legitimize Bush’s misguided strategy every day just because you think it is patriotic
Except you, or anyone you know, can’t describe how or why it is “misguided.”
Anything from a silly, ignorant liberal such as yourself mentioning “patriotic” is to be immediately dismissed as you don’t know what it means.
We should have tried to build more international support to go after bin Laden
And then what?
You do realize in the next sentence you’re liable to type “Bush sqandered the goodwill after 9/11” or some other rubbish, right?
Oh, you’re way too stupid to see how contradictory that is, sorry.
to marginalize and trap the al qaeda leadership
Yes, of course, because to you, dipshit, making tape recordings, offering truces from a cave is not “marginalized.”
the United States can no longer fight from the moral high ground.
As if you, Marxist, ever would believe this is possible anyway.
If these soldiers who may have been kidnapped get their necks cut open, the responsibility would lie not only with the mujihadeen but also with the President.
Actually, the responsibilty would lie with the people doing the cutting and their leftist cheerleaders/apologists: you.
I for one give up. I am heartbroken. The terrorists are planning right now what to do on video to the captured wonderful soldiers, and you can bet CNN will play it as the coda to the Bushitler’s folly. After the Fallujah debacle, you would think Bush would not allow another half-assed “crackdown” to go forward. Why not just announce the time and date and place of your operation?
Oh, wait, they did. Wouldn’t want any al-Sadrists to get hurt!
All is well, though, in the Green Zone as the heartless new government throws away Iraqi and US lives in their play for power and oil.
They are using our magnificent military as sitting ducks, and I’m sick of it. Fight to win or get the hell out. At least we’ll all be in it together once they get home.
“I am really sorry…I send silly messages to this site…” Stop right there AR dope. That`s enough truth from you for this week.
OK
Like Pakistan can do a whole lot up near it border?
That is a no go zone even for elite Pakistani units… and the Pakistani public isn’t interested in pacifying the region either.
Musharraf hangs by a thread there as it is…
Oh. I forgot. John Kerry would have convinced all Pakistanis to lets us violate their border at will.
I don’t know what justification you may have for asserting that invading Iraq was “right” other than religious superstitions about the end times. Saddam was no threat as a terrorist or with conventional forces. Period. Those mobile weapons labs turned out to be helium generators for weather ballons. as for “Islamic Relations” with the Taliban, Iraq was not alone on that list. Pak, Saudi, Yemen, etc also had such relations with the Talibs.
m’kay, just ignore the rest of my comment. IRAQ WAS IN VIOLATION OF THEIR CEASE FIRE AGREEMENT FROM THE FIRST GULF WAR! see more here.
Saddam violated the Gulf War ceasefire, repeatedly.
Ace, they way you resort to ad hominem attacks is a sign of bad mental habits. You label people as “liberal” and “Marxist” because you are trained like Pavlov’s dog. ring a bell and you foam at the mouth. I would like to hear you tell eveyone why invading Iraq is so great. what are American troops defending exactly? did Saddam ever threaten the US Constitution or attack the United States?
Uh, I seem to recall that the relatives of a Russian diplomat were kidnapped in Lebanon some years back. After several relatives of the kidnappers were killed, the relatives were returned.
I say Mookie Al Sadr suffers the same fate as our soldiers.
Because we should follow the rules. The same rules they do.
Saddam sheltered the only terrorist involved in the ‘93 WTC attack still at large.
Saddam shoveled money into the hands of every terrorist group he could.
It was official US policy—signed into law by Bill Clinton—to remove Saddam from Iraq. Among the reasons cited for that policy were Saddam’s repeated violations of the Gulf War ceasefire, human rights abuses, support for terrorism, and ties to al’Qaeda.
Now run along and play where your ignorance isn’t so freaking obvious.
The antique MSM has given them every reason to try and capture and torture as many americans as possible. All they do is hype the college frat jokes at the prison and the ‘prisoners’ complaints at Gitmo. They’re so stupid they don’t know that there is not one terrorists at Gitmo, just like there’s not a guilty criminal in any prison in the world. Does anyone not know that watching and listening to the antique MSM is getting their news from the most stupid anti-american people in the world. Elitest my a**, dumba**e* to the max. The biggest problem is the left wingers are more stupid than the MSM and believe every lie they put out.
You label people as “liberal†and “Marxist†because you are trained like Pavlov’s dog
Actually, it is a factual statement, idiot.
did Saddam ever threaten the US Constitution or attack the United States?
Huh?
How does one “threaten” the US Constitution from abroad?
Did OBL “threaten” the Constitution?
Saddam was no threat as a terrorist or with conventional forces. Period.
Hilarious ignorance.
Those mobile weapons labs turned out to be helium generators for weather ballons.
Lie.
Funny, it seems like only leftists mention that one.
There is plenty of evidence to the contrary. He paid bounties to families of suicide bombers, and extended Iraqi hospitality to AQ and plenty of other terrorists.
Hussein’s Iraq had concealed hundreds of banned WMD-related activities. Read the Duelfer Report. Concealing even one banned WMD-related activity was sufficient legal grounds to take military action.
So? The legal justication for removing the Hussein regime was massive, systematic violation of the cease-fire that followed their attempt to annex Kuwait.
If a cease fire violation of some kind was the pretext for invasion, then the Iraq war truly has nothing to do with 9/11, AQ or terrorism in general. Are you sure you want to make that argument? It’s pretty weak. After all we know how much conservatives, if I may address you as such, respect the UN and its resolutions.
as for “Islamic Relations†with the Taliban, Iraq was not alone on that list. Pak, Saudi, Yemen, etc also had such relations with the Talibs.
Way to go dipshit, you’ve created yet another strawman.
Good job.
Those mobile weapons labs turned out to be helium generators for weather ballons.
-Saddam apologist.
You swallow this unmitigated bullshit hook, line, and sinker.
And you have the temerity to suggest I’m using “ad hominem” attacks.
The irony is just too rich.
Well, there was that whole assasination attempt on a former president, firing missiles at our jets, every week, day in, day out, for years, and you know, the genocides, threats, giving room and board to terrorists and funding suicide bombers in Israel (which kill American citizens, btw, seeing as how a couple of them happen to be Jewish), that whole war thing which, hmmmm, I don’t think…oh…peace treaty…hmmm…No, it was a truce, which he violated and so we bombed the hell out of him in Desert Fox, and reserved the right to ever since as the war was still on.
I guess that’s why we’ve been bombing him ever since 1998, but let’s not let any facts get in the way of your shriveled isolationism and abettment of fascism.
Now, we’ve discredited al Qaeda, killed and rolled up a vast amount of its cells in Iraq. We’ve brought down a dictator and butchered his progeny and ended his line forever. We’ve introduced rule of law, democracy and on, but let’s stick to the obvious utilitarian achievements.
We’ve taken an intractable enemy (Saddam) and created an ally. We’ve instantly taken our reserve of Arabic speakers and gone from less than a thousand to 280,000 and created networks all over the Middle East.
We’ve flanked Iran. We’ve taken heat off of Afghanistan, or did you think that those “100 Bin Ladens” are easier to beat in a landlocked mountainous central asian nation than one on the sea? We’ve blooded our military and refreshed our ranks of veterans. The next war will benefit from these hard lessons.
You know, shit like that.
and why might that be? because they wouldn’t ACT on them. Kinda like this.
and others have already pointed out Sadaam’s ties to terrorists.
If a cease fire violation of some kind was the pretext for invasion, then the Iraq war truly has nothing to do with 9/11, AQ or terrorism in general
Yes, because in your tiny liberal brain they are mutually exclusive.
Of course, you couldn’t be bothered to read the AUMF which mentioned all 3:
And
And:
Gee stupid, that was real difficult, wasn’t it?
Do we really know if the bad guys captured the soldiers or is the NYT just blowing off?
As for why we invaded Iraq, I think some lefies are either deaf, stupid, or suffering from cognitive dissonance. Did Saddam attack this country? sheesh. sigh.
Well he fired on our planes in blatant violation of the cease fire agreement, he tried to kill a president, who is by the way the Executive and he was tied to the first WTC attack….and so on and so forth. And then of course there was that whole Butcher of Baghdad thing but as a general rule anti war people could give a rat’s ass if Saddam wiped half his population off the face of the earth there is no point in making an issue of allowing Iraq to be freed from the grips of a thieving sadist and rejoining the world. Who cares about that?
Saddam was no threat as a terrorist or with conventional forces. Period.
Gee, then why were Saddam’s people doing this?
I would be embarrassed to type what you are demonstrating a stupidity that can’t be parodied.
You do it proudly.
Jackass, the ceasefire was with US, not the UN. When the UN gets an army, come chat. Until then, whoever violates the terms of a ceasefire with America, gets what he wants.
David Kay retracted his statement about the mobile weapons labs in October of 2003.
Vercingetorix, I was mistaken. Please forgive me, just as I will forgive you. Let’s be friends.
Hatchet is buried. Shallowly.
David Kay retracted his statement about the mobile weapons labs in October of 2003.
Prove that.
Otherwise, it is comical to see you run for the rest of your moronic commentary…
Natalie Maines? Is that you?
Ladies and gentlemen,
Thank you for your efforts to educate “America rules.” I had a similar, similarly surreal, conversation with my 25-year-old son last night.
I wonder how long the left is going to use any pretext to question the origin of the Iraq war.
tw – a hundred years.
Link?
There was a link to the original statement. The least you could do is support your assertion.
America Rules, thank you for giving us all a reason, once again, to state clearly and unequivocally why we’re pursuing this strategy in Iraq and the Middle East rather than continuing the failed realpolitik of the prior era. I hope you’re able to look past the names you’re being called and see the facts and the reasoning being presented; the names (if I may presume, other posters) result from these paths’ having been trod and retrod ad nauseam on this side of the aisle – and we just frankly don’t get why you on the other side continue not to engage us about them.
So we’re left with this decision tree:
You can’t engage us on these grounds because they’re self-evidently true, in which case you have some bizarre surreal agenda that we don’t have to worry about, except insofar as we have to try hard to keep your ilk (sorry, folks) from winning high public office where you may endanger us too.
OR
You can’t engage us because you don’t accept either the facts or the reasoning, in which case:
You’re willfully blind (which assumes that you could open your eyes but won’t, again for reasons we just don’t get)
OR
You’re just plain blind through no fault of your own (which assumes that you can’t help yourselves, and we on this side tend to acknowledge the agency of individual actors rather than celebrating victimhood, so we don’t really go for this choice).
<a href=”http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/10/02/kay.report/” target=”_blank”>
I admit now, it isnt exactly a retraction be he’s still not sure about it as of Oct 2003
If Saddam and his regime were not a threat, what was Bill Clinton and the UN doing with him for all those years?
You know it is the revisionists today who act as if all this came about because of Bush, but in truth there was going to be a reckoning with Saddam no matter who was in the White House. At least that is what Al Gore said back before the Democrats decided to overlook the 90’s and pretend they had nothing to do with the whole unpleasantness with Saddam. The whole ‘98 bombing of Baghdad and the food for oil scam and the Iraqi Liberation Act and the intel gathered by Democrats like Tenet in the CIA, etc. never happened. In truth if Bush had not won the election in 2000 and if Gore had been president on 9/11, is there any question that they would not have thought of Iraq as a threat with wmd and ties to terrorism? Of course they would have.
And besides, right now the likes of Clooney and his Hollywood friends are yammering away about Darfur and nothing that is going on in Darfur can compare with what Saddam had done and would do to his own people. Seems to me their moral outrage is a tad selective.
The sad thing is the people of Iraq risked their lives to vote and try to build a country and all these hypocrites can do is mourn the loss of Saddam and demean the sacrfice made by the people of Iraq. If Murtha and his kind had a choice between seeing the US defeated in Iraq and the US succeeding, I have no doubt they would chose defeat, because as far as they are concerned it is more important that they be right than it is that future generations of Iraqis have a normal life.
I messed up that link to Kay’s statement, <a href=”http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/06/07/cia.mobile.labs/ “ target=”_blank”>it is here</a>.
I admit now, it isnt exactly a retraction be he’s still not sure about it as of Oct 2003
And of course you have no evidence for your original claim.
Funny how that works, huh?
So we bomb the fuck out of everyone. Good strategy.
So we bomb the fuck out of everyone. Good strategy.
Can you tell us when this has been suggested or where it has been implemented?
Other than the bombing of Dresden that is…
You have defeated me today, I think. But I shall return.
PS Ace, Vercingetorix – I love you.
Wait, I know this one. Straw WOMAN! Not even strong enough to be a straw man.
America rules:
The labs were dual use, but that is not the point my friend.
The point is that Saddam never did account for thousands of litres of weapons.
The reason for the weapons inspectors is not to track down the weapons, it is to verify and destroy. Saddam was not supposed to flush it down a toilet and then say honest Injun I got rid of it. Nosiree, there are rules, and they are there for a reason..because otherwise backhoe operators in Iraq will never know what they might find out there.
So Saddam had YEARS to do what Kaddafi did, what the South Africans did and he flat assed refused to do it. And now we don’t know for sure what the hell became of the weapons. In truth we did not exactly sneak up on the bastard he could have gotten rid of the stuff long ago, but if that is true…why jack with Clinton and Bush and the UN? Clinton would have been more than happy to let him off the hook and be done with him given the oppurtunity…and then there is the information from Putin who said the Iraqis were planning attacks against America…add that to the fact that Saddam offered Osama sanctuary back in the 90’s and there is no doubt Saddam was a dangerous man.
Too bad they did not take care of him in 91.
America Rules
cynn:
No not everyone.
Saddam was no threat as a terrorist or with conventional forces. Period.
AR, following a bald assertion with the word “period” doesn’t make it more convincing. Go back down the line here and you can read — if you care to — plenty of pretty strong intelligence that contradicts your bald assertion.
You can argue with it — there are a couple of possible rational arguments — but “Nu-uh, didn’t happen, lalalalala” isn’t one of them.
Don’t be in a hurry.
America Rules! must be tonight’s DU designated halfwit with orders to come to PW and display his monumental ignorence. Actus may be a liberal fool but he does have a brain and, disagree with him as I do, he still contributes something to the conversation. America Rules! and Urine Stained Citizen (how cute!)simply exhibit the complete lack of history, logic, fact, and intellect that characterize America’s left. See what happens when you close down mental institutions and quit keeping the family embarassment in the attic? I’m coming more and more to Vercingetorix’s attitude and perspective about these clowns. I am tired of tolerating them.
TW: “passed’ These people are like the gas I passed after last night’s chile supper. And almost as entertaining.
The Green Berets, Task Force 145, the Delta Force, the 101st Airborne, the navy SEALs, the Army Rangers, and the marines are sitting ducks? That is surely the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard.
I suggest you contact these units and tell them what you think of them. I’d love to see how they react to such a monumentally insulting and dumbass characterization.
These “sitting ducks” have something like a 25-to-1 kill ratio. Check out how the helpless victims in the marines mopped the earth with the cream of the jihadi crop in Fallujah.
http://tinyurl.com/lmrtu
You need to turn off the TV and read some more.
Vercingetorix, Ace…
Nicely done, as always.
America Rules! A respectable bow-out.
Well done by all.
Ah, but what the hell do I know.
The biggest danger from Saddam was that the status of his weapons of mass destruction program was unknown. This was not a trivial danger in a world of suitcase nukes after 9/11. I’m grateful to President Bush for not waiting around to let the bad guys get in the first punch.
And there was never any possibility of “consensus” from the Europeans on Iraq. Saddam was their valued customer, and they quadruple-crossed us to try to save him.
Turing = image, as in I know this may dent your image of the UN and other morally superior foreign garlic gobblers, but cope.
These “sitting ducks†have something like a 25-to-1 kill ratio. Check out how the helpless victims in the marines mopped the earth with the cream of the jihadi crop in Fallujah.
In particular, read Marine tanker Neil Prakash’s blog Armor Geddon, before military Op Sec makes him take it down. It’s already been sanitized to a disappointing degree.
Turing = western, as in, that Neil is a regular cowboy on an Abrams!
The cease-fire violations provided the legal/diplomatic justification for military action. They were *not* the sole, or even the main, reason why we decided to avail ourselves of our rights, however. Those reasons had everything to do with 9/11, AQ and terrorism: the level of threat which was prudent to accept changed dramatically after 9/11.
Again, I hope you understand. The reason why we removed Hussein was because his regime and its policies were considered an unacceptable threat to our security interests.
1) Violations of the Gulf War cease-fire and subsequent UN resolutions gave us the legal authority to take military action against Hussein’s Iraq, independent of 9/11.
2) The reasons why we decided to *exercise* that authority when we did were directly related to 9/11 – the threshold for the level of threat we we could prudently tolerate became much lower.
America rules,
You should consider the fact that your opinions have no factual basis. You can either find new opinions or invent facts.
Democrats today are doing the latter.
Mike: You’ve got a real tin ear for sarcasm there. I’m not remotely a leftist. I think you were referring to cynn and couple of those other numbnuts. Pay attention.
I am reading, Tom W., the Iraqi bloggers, among others. Guess what, the checkpoints (that we alerted the enemy to last week) have not stopped the jihadis. Surprise.
I have nothing but respect for our military–it’s the politicians in both countries that stink. Setting up a bunch of checkpoints like they’re looking for drunk drivers is an insult and a danger to the military.
As for Fallujah, the first operation was a failure because the politicans made the military hold back. The second one worked, only because the man in charge said he would not lead his men in there again unless they could fight to win.
So why don’t you read more carefully before you start throwing insults.
Can you tell us when this has been suggested or where it has been implemented? </blockquote>
Uh, Ace, wasn’t that Matt Yglesias’ strategy? let them nuke a US city then bomb the fuck out of them?
The Ace’s link.
Patricia, are you really naive enough that you imagine 24 hours of checkpoints were going to stop the jihadis cold?
If so, are you familiar with the joke about the guy who wanted to put his finger in his date’s belly button?
Uh, Jeff, re this post?
Sometimes your comment window is a real pain in the ass.
“are you familiar with the joke about the guy who wanted to put his finger in his date’s belly button?”
I’m not, tell it, tell it! Pleeeeeease.
Patricia, you have part of it. You need to understand the rest.
I’m a RWDB who’s prepared to admit that Bush and the military made mistakes. One of the major ones was not comprehending just how much Iraqi society had decayed. Take the looting, for instance. Who’d have expected that not just the Army, but the cops would all go home and let the mob run riot? Or that Iraqi citizens would decide every man for himself and devil take the hindmost, and start stealing everything not nailed down?
One of the persistent memes from the Left, and some of the Right, is that we should have left the Iraqi Army in place as Home Security. That argument looks pretty weak in the light of the fact that the Iraqi Army bugged out like a nest of rabbits facing a dog, but it still seems to have some force. They were an Army, f’cat’s sake. They at least had guns. Couldn’t they have done something?
At First Fallujah the order to withdraw had a specific purpose, and it wasn’t giving up and letting the terrorists go. The Iraqis had assembled a rump of the Army, calling it the “Fallujah Brigade”, with an ex-Saddamist General who didn’t have many black marks against him leading it. American forces drew back in favor of letting the Fallujah Brigade go in. An Iraqi Army should be able to handle Iraqis pretty well, no?
No. The Fallujah Brigade turned out to have abysmal training, near-zero unit cohesion, useless officers, and equipment that rarely worked when the soldiers knew how to use it. It was they who were routed, not the Americans. They deserted in droves, and when they got home they found their officers there before them. They made a lot of noise and sprayed a lot of bullets in the air, and accomplished absolutely nothing—in fact, they clearly lost, a negative accomplishment.
For those who pay attention, the experience puts a nail in the coffin of the “we should have kept the Iraqi Army” notion. Saddam’s much-vaunted army, the biggest and strongest in the Middle East, who were widely assumed before the invasion to be capable of at least giving the Americans a Hell of a bloody nose, was in fact not an “Army” by any definition we could recognize, simply a sloppy, poorly-organized, poorly-led gang riddled with clan distinctions, with neat uniforms and some cool Russian equipment and a bit of British-style close order drill. Useless, in other words. Keeping it in place would not have resulted in better security. It would have been a useless drain on resources, and likely a source of finance and recruitment for the terrorists.
But until First Fallujah there was no way to know that for sure. The experiment had to be tried, and it was. It was after that that the big push to train Iraqi units started, and that effort is starting to bear fruit; the New Iraqi Army, trained by Americans, is recognizably military, fairly good in fact. It would never have come to be without First Fallujah.
It’s a truism that armies always start prepared to fight the last war. Americans try hard to overcome that, but it’s inevitable for a lot of reasons. One weapon we have, developed since Viet Nam, is the After Action Report. AARs are predicated upon the fact that mistakes will be made, and the best thing to do is figure out what they were and try to learn not to make them again. It makes the American military forces incredibly flexible by historical standards, but they can’t change in an instant—at least partly because they haven’t yet made the mistakes that indicate the necessity for change. The American military was not set up or trained for peacekeeping and nation building, and it takes a lot of mistakes to drive that home and induce the necessary changes.
One of the reasons Iraq was picked as the first target in this long conflict was that it had what looks like, on the surface, something resembling a cosmopolitan society rather than being just a gang of sheepherding nomads crammed into permanent houses. Iraq had, and has, Communists, labor unions, an academic class, and many of the other trappings of a Western society; one might have expected their compatriots in other countries to step forward and help them rebuild, but the Left around the world has dropped them all like hot rocks, in fact is ready to deliver them to the Qaedists and Ba’athists with necks already stretched. That left the Americans as the only source of rebuilding aid, and we weren’t ready for that. It’s the second “Bush mistake”. He expected the liberals to be, well, liberal. Having them all turn out to be hero-worshipers for the neck-choppers and baby-murderers was a nasty surprise, and it’s taking some time to get past it.
Regards,
Ric
That was brilliant Mr. Locke.
Anyone. We’re undoing a society. Remember Rummy telling us that freedom was untidy? Thats totally foreseeable.
But i’m really curious about this ‘picked first’ idea of yours.
“Thats totally foreseeable.”
THAT’S why all those dem senators, newspaper editors, college professors, and other anti war nuts warned everyone that’s what was going to happen. You know, before it happened. Cause it was totally foreseeable.
Yes, thank you Mr. Locke. Another excellent explanation.
The anti-war side uses hindsight without much context. They never use foresight. I think it’s because they know that abandoning Iraq to the jihadis would be a royal disaster for both Iraq and America. They won’t predict that because they don’t want to be on record as knowing how badly their “plan” would turn out. They must preserve their plausible deniability.
That is something that had not really occured to me. I wonder what backlash may be brewing over there as these people become aware of their betrayal by the western left?
Well you know if the left was so damn smart and on the ball then why didn’t they turn Saddam loose years before Bush left Texas? Clinton did not forsee anything, Byrd and Kennedy and Murtha had no doubts about what a dangerous man Saddam was back when the man in the White House had a D behind his name.
Not sure why you’d say that other than generalized deliberate obtuseness; you’ve mentioned it yourself, I’m almost sure, except that you consider it an accusation.
We’re probably going to have to do something like this again. The way the international Left has handled the situation has moved that from “maybe we can avoid it if we try” to “virtually certain.”
Regards,
Ric
Uh, Ace, wasn’t that Matt Yglesias’ strategy? let them nuke a US city then bomb the fuck out of them?
Posted by Charlie (Colorado
Point taken!
Now why should I trouble my beautiful mind with something like this? I have a yellow ribbon on my car. What more could one expect of a citizen.
Urine Stained Citizen
Read too quickly. Apologies.
I expect them to be a net producer rather than consumer economically, to responsibly participate in public discussions and decisions, and to accept maturely that all decisions and policy isn’t going to go their way. But that’s just me.
ermm, that was just me, I mean.