Not that I have any desire to ring the Iran nuclear alarmist bell any moreso than I’ve done already the last two days, but, well…“Pakistan’s former chief of staff: Iran probably has the bomb”. Do read the whole thing.
Factor in this information, which comes from Mirza Aslam Beg (who claims to have met with the Iranians concerning nuclear weapons 15 years ago) with the rest of what Iran has been up to of late, and it’s beginning to look a lot like the coming of nuclear winter.
Time to dial up Sarah Connor. Or, maybe John Connor, if he hasn’t ODed on Xstasy or heroin.
****
update: Just thought I’d point you to the kinds of responses some of my posts on Iran are now generating.
It seems that merely discussing the various scenarios one can draw from Iran’s recent actions suggests tendencies toward bedwetting and crapping one’s pants.
Perhaps it’s time for me to put up a disclaimer at the top of those posts that attemp to work through contemporary geopolitical issues: “Warning: Adults Engaged in Discussion. You’re Free to Stay, But Please—For Your Own Safety—WEAR YOUR HELMET AND SAFETY GOGGLES, AND ONLY USE THE PLASTIC SILVERWARE.”
You see? Iknew it, Iknew it. Anyhthing Pakistan has, Iran equally has.
*MadMud* didn*t claw his way to the top by being stupid. We have a chess player here.
He thinks he has *Check-mates*, up his sleeve. He has a brand new submarine fleet and those longer-reach tubes are very likely on board.
Is that part of his *check-mate* hidden agenda that gives him the confidence to send Bush a grievance manifesto?
Not to mention Istaeli target locations collected by Hizbullah run drones from across the S. Lebanon border. MichaelTotten.com
TG
I can hear the response from the usual suspects already:
Bed wetting fear mongery! You and your so called “evidence”, bah! Iran is a rational actor, not a terrorist sponsoring home of apocolyptic nut jobs. Bush is the real theocratic threat! Halliburton! Oil!
FOrgot Cheney, MJ, but I’ll let it slide because Halliburton has Cheney’s evil wrapped up in a little ball as a nice little package.
The only question left seems to be:
On which day does everything change?
TW: hot, like the million degrees kind.
It’s not a matter of “if”……it’s “when”.
(shorter jeff goldstein)
Antiwisdom is an accurate name for your site there fella. At least it’s truth in advertising.
That’s usually a foreign concept on the left these days.
T.G.
Checkmates? Uh probably not. Shorter range missles maybe. Iranian sub? Yes, but we know where they are at all times. Longer missle tubes, No. Buying time to fruition is all that is going on here…..I think our biggest worry is the Strait of Hormuz to start off with. Honestly how long will Israel let this go on? Not long I hope.
antiwisdom.
You need get some help for those anger issues fella. I guess infactuation is a bit flattering for Jeff though.
Godd luck with your problem……
Jeff, did you spend a month driving to the homes of a bunch of lefties and personally piss in their Wheaties? Because they seem to be taking your existence personally.
Nope. Just started writing longer, more serious posts.
This they WILL NOT LET STAND!
Why, who’s after me today? My mother-in-law is coming in for the weekend, so I’ll be away from the computer most of the time, so going after me is poor timing.
Weren’t they going to freak out and attack israel once they had the bomb?
Some new firedoglake/tbogg piss bois it looks like.
Their inability to comprehend proves you are a retard, you know.
Who knows? Maybe they’re going to freak out, or maybe they’re going to keep it in their hip pocket and use the threat of it to terrorize other Gulf states until they, too, get the bomb.
It’s true, the Iranian leadership might be rational practitioners of Macchiavellian realpolitik—or, they might be full-blow wackaloons. I hope we don’t find out until after they get the bomb, though; I love surprises!
Also, the point of the article was that, whether or not they actually have an operational weapon yet, they’re probably much closer than we thought.
Okay. Looks like I might have to break out more ladies underwear and Double Dragon jokes. That should really tax me.
Q: Why did Jane Hamsher cross the road?
A: SHE HAD NO CHOICE! THE BUSH-LOVING ROAD STARTED IT WHEN IT LIBELED HER!
So that “antiwisdom” guy started a blog to write childish comments about Jeff’s posts because Jeff banned him for being childish.
What douche.
Maybe we should freak out then.
No, actus—we should emulate the wisdom of the ostritch and play a pretend game where we don’t have to fret about it.
I mean, Mommy and Daddy will take care of it and make it all better, right?
An, we could strum a guitar while a city drowns. But thats not very popular. I vote for flashy cable news graphics and a “can-do” attitude in government.
I’d like to see a serious wargaming of an Iranian attack on Israel, and the likely response.
Say, 2-3 Hiroshima sized bombs, one in Tel Aviv, one in Haifa. (Assuming Iran doesn’t want to destroy Jerusalem.)
Because even though Israel is referred to as a “one bomb state” that kind of attack is not going to cripple the Israeli military to the point where they won’t be able to respond.
Since Israel has never admitted to having nuclear weapons, I doubt they have any “published” nuclear retaliation doctrine. But I would guess one nuke on Tehran, with additional nukes on any military sites that aren’t near population centers, and conventional bombs on other military and political sites that are close to civilian populations.
US troops come in from Iraq to open the Strait of Hormuz, maintain order, and perhaps keep some oil flowing.
Hopefully an independant Kurdistan breaks away from Iran and Iraq – with Turkish Kurdistan likely hotly disputed for a while.
So all-in-all, the least likely outcome, I would say, would be the Dar-al-Islam rushing to offer fealty to the newly declared Caliph seated in Persia.
Other effects.
Tell us something we don’t know, actus.
Running a bit behind the curve, are you? Or are you still trying to push the meme that the President is personally responsible for failures of the State and City governments?
Damn, but you’re clueless.
They’re keeping order and oil flowing so well in Iraq, we could spare a few to spread the order around to Iran.
He’s certainly not responsible for what the Iranian government does. But we wouldn’t be happy with him just strumming away on that either.
Actus, you left out the link.
That’s what Actus was talking about?
Damn, Actus, you’re gullible.
Gullible, aye, that he is. And actus may actually even believe his own shit.
Imagine that, if you can.
Q: Why does Jane Hampster ride the subway.
A: Captive audience.
Q: Why’d the chicken cross the road?
A: Because the road crossed the chicken!
PhoneTech, Ease up on Actus and apply your tech-savvy razor analysis to what you think *MadMud and the Mullusks* will do next.
Iran has a new sub fleet and via Pakistan, long range pointy things and nukes.
*MadMud* issues a manifesto to Bush.
What does the logic of that say?
It says he has weapons in order and he would like to test them! Of course!
Does US military GPS have Iran*s subs in the cross hairs? Very likely, but you don*t know and neither do I.
Does the US have cross hairs drawn on enough of the underground Iranian nuke plant?
===most important===
Can the US manage an effective pre-emtive strike?
====
Is *MadMud* prone to calm if concessions are won as North Korea always seems to do? [I doubt it somehow.]
That*s just scratching the surface.
Very few could speak with any certainty, and I detect some fear in your recent comments.
Well fear is reasonable, but don*t bother to worry at all. That just burns calories for nothing.
It*s more fun to plot the possible outcomes.
What*s your prognosis here. TG
I lied about detecting fear. Mild offense elicits cutting analysis.
A new submarine fleet? Well, it may be new to them, but those are Soviet subs.
You know, Soviet – an adjective when applied to submarines that, based on past performance, would make the hardiest blanch. Soviet and Soviet knock-off high-tech military equipment hasn’t put in a real good performance since the 1960’s, and that was over 35 years ago.
Would they be a nuisance? Definitely.
An existential threat to the US Navy? No.
But the screen doors are brand-new!
Hey, those diesel subs are super quiet and hard to detect… as long as they’re maintained and operated by skilled professionals.
Which, of course, the ME produces in such profusion…
The track record of intelligence determining whether or not someone has nuclear weapons is, at best, spotty, at least if the public information is valid.
The assessment on Iraq (No nuke, but an active program) seems to have been correct, but supposedly the Indian and Pakistani weapons came as a surprise. There’s a huge amount of genuine uncertainty there.
Any theoretical weapon developed by Iran would probably be enormous and difficult to move. I’d bet against their mounting it on a missile.
I’d bet against their mounting it in a ship, because there have been anecdotes about merchant vessels previously used to haul pitchblende getting intercepted and searched by the US Coast Guard. That implies there’s a network of radiological scanners in place.
If I were Iran and making an attack on the West, I’d either put it in a commercial jet (where does IranAir fly to, anyway?) or in a sub. Iranian subs are Soviet designs, but they are diesel-electric, which makes them very quiet. Going in submerged would also shield any radiation.
On the US side, I’d put as many submerged sensors as close to Iran’s military ports as possible. I wonder what the NR-1’s been up to…
Uh. no. just the original strummer pics. The third one on the snopes page.
Speculation, but US military GPS probably tracks subs with some sort of ferrous metal or magnetix sensor hi-tech.
Where did I put those damn Pop Science mags?
TG
Slim Pickens,
I see you absorbed sub background too. Yeah, the British D/electrics used to routinely sneak past detection during exercises.
Stealth is a great asset. On impulse, liberal politicians in Canada bought some off the UK used car lot.
They didn*t kick rubber, so the seals leaked. They didn*t try the lights, so the wiring shorted and caused a fire.
They may look good in a war museum.
Oh well, call it foreign aid. At least we were diddled by a good friend and not the Russians. TG
Q. Why did Jane Hamsher cross the road?
Q. Who’s Jane Hamsher?
A. That’s a good question.
Hey Jeff, what did you do sign up for a wacko-a-day. Is it a Costco thing or can you do it at the local 7-11? Keep up the good work, I’m enjoying the hell out of it.
And diesel-electric subs are stealthy, no denying that. As long as they run on the batteries. But as soon as a diesel is fired up to charge the batteries, whether on the surface or through a snorkel, that sub is found and dead.
And the batteries don’t last long when any high speed is applied to them. They drain real fast.
Hence, not an existential threat.
Lloyd, Jeff has to pay close attention to expenses. The wacko-a-day plan is high dollar and has to be renewed frequently, an administrative nightmare. He went for a longer-term lease on a selected group of moonbats, with occasional changes for variety. Much more economical in the long run.
Regards,
Ric
Mikey,
Within the Persian Gulf or around the straits of Hormuz, the idea of a couple of Kilo class diesel-electrics keep the ASW guys up at night in a cold sweat.
Mikey, all that is quite true.
It matters not a bit, nor does the Soviet origin of the subs matter much. With honorable exceptions, Soviet subs are a real problem for their crews on long cruises and/or in deep waters.
The Straits of Hormuz are small and shallow. You could cause a grunch of trouble with Cousteau-style wet subs, and the typical six to eight hour endurance on batteries alone of a Diesel sub would let them do two sorties a day into the tanker lanes without ever firing up a motor.
No, the Iranians don’t have boomers. Seattle is safe from them, though North Korea is a different can of worms. Ahmadinejad isn’t going to send his submarine fleet against American aircraft carriers (as a rule—don’t completely rule out spectacular gestures). Taking potshots in a shallow, warm-water shooting gallery is well within their capabilities, though. Existential threat against the U.S. Navy? It is to laugh. Stop the oil and sink a few destroyers and frigates? Noo problemo.
Regards,
Ric
Remember how tyrants have worked over the last century.
Hitler never invaded a neighbor without a fullcourt propaganda campaign to gin up “grievances” – which, given the terms of Versailles, weren’t too much of a reach at first. But the thread ran out after the U.K. and france served up The Czechs for an apertif to World War; not even Chamberlain was capable of running a Munich II – which Hitler completely misjudged, even if he had the french pegged as far as what they were willing to do to appease him.
“Poles? What about the Poles? They are over THERE, and la belle france, she is HERE. Screw the Poles…” would have been their ready answer.
The Japanese were intent on delivering a multi-part message to Roosevelt that was supposed to arrive literally minutes before the first Japanese aircraft tipped over over Battleship Row. It was thought that this letter would defuze, at least in part, American outrage because the letter could be propagandized as a formal war warning – even if the limitations of current technology made the warning useless.
The lack of a competent cryptographer/typist at the IJ embassy in D.C. screwed the timing up, and on the morning the first shot in the war with Japan ended up being fired by a U.S. destroyer that sank one of the midget subs attempting to sneak into Pearl Harbor. But the senior commanders at Pearl where not in their headquarters, the planes at Pearl were not manned, and only a few ships at anchor had steam on or more than an anchor watch posted – even after a sub was reported sunk, even after radar warnings of an approaching raid.
Yesterday was the most beautiful day of the year so far, here in Utah. As I sat on my front porch enjoying a lemonade and a smoke, I looked out at the Wasatch mountains to the east and marvelled at the crispness of the spring air. The longer I sat, the more beautiful the day got. Kids on bikes running with kites and puppies. The carpet of white blossoms in my strawberries. The smell of new life and clean, newly cut grass…
The tyrants of today live in a dysfunctional tribal world that exists only because of oil wealth. The pressures of totalitarianism have been bled off as exported terror and murder for decades but now not even that is enough. They publish their grievances continuously – we are decadent, we are hegemonistic, we are infidel… but with the recent letter to Bush from the top whack in Iran we have the formal declaration that they are indeed coming.
They will say we have been warned. They’ll be right, but only because they bothered to put a stamp on the latest one, and send it in the mail. Lord knows they’ve been making a good faith effort to let us know they want us dead, with practical demonstrations, for decades… but still there are those who just don’t get it.
The last day I felt a calm and peace like I did yesterday was the early morning of September 11, 2001, when I sat on my porch enjoying coffee and a smoke while on break from getting ready to fly east that afternoon.
Dead Iranians in Iraq may be this century’s edition of that first sunken minisub at the gates of Pearl Harbor. I hope, this time around, we don’t ignore the warnings until it’s too late.
TW= “fine”. It was a spectacularly fine day, right up to when the first tower was hit.
I beg to differ. But, then, I’m a little different :-\
Understand, I don’t believe the Islamists, even with the support of the oil tyrants, are an “existential threat” to the United States. But I also don’t believe that only existential threats are worth responding to. Assymetrical warfare can make us mighty uncomfortable, and I like being comfortable.
Unless I happen to win the negative lottery on some business trip I’m pretty safe. I live a few miles outside a relatively small town in a Red state. The population density here isn’t nearly what would be needed to make for a spectacular gesture, and anyway I’m not one of the people they’re bitching about.
The people the Islamists are specifically declaring as targets are the very ones who are excusing them and (more often) treating them as irrelevant trifles. actus. Imhotep. The people who are sneering at us for “wetting our pants” because we want to take precautions are the ones in the crosshairs, and I’m just this >< much before saying “stand down the security and see what happens.”
Shut it all down. Fire the TSA, shut down the phone surveillance, let all the Gitmo guys and any others in similar situations go, get the Navy out of the Gulf. We made promises to the Iraqis, and those need to be kept, but other than that shut it all off.
I’ll shed a genuine tear for the Jews, but the little flakes of radioactive actus won’t be any more annoying than the live one is. And the country will be fine, as a whole. There won’t be “existentially threatening” damage. Likely we can get by fine without New York; it’s worth a try, anyway. And the most important thing is that it’s what they want. It’s what they’re demanding, in fact. And if this goes on much longer I’ll be ready to give it to them.
But if we do, I want as many people as possible to start a stone bucket. Actus’s posts and Imhotep’s, Yglesias and Atrios (Kos isn’t worth keeping even for that.) Nancy Pelosi’s speeches, and Ted’s. All the snarky NYT stories and editorials. Keep it all. Buy a hard disk if you have to, and preserve it. And when the time comes and the accusations start flying, never reply in your own words. There’ll be plenty of quotes and soundbites to choose from.
Regards,
Ric
“Power..marks its victim,denounces it;and excites the public odium and the public hatred,to coceal its own abuses and encroachments.” Henry Clay. Peace
[insert platitude here, end with a call for “Peace” without being willing to acknowledge that sometimes force is needed in order to insure it in the long term].
I think I’m on to your pattern, Imhotep.
Imhotep,
I’m glad Henry Clay has such great wisdom about nuclear weapons, given that I like his cigars so much.
imhotep makes me laugh. Every time he says “Peace” I want to reply “groovy man!” We used to say groovy or peace in practically every sentence. It was a good time to be young and stupid. Is now also a good time to be young and stupid, actus? You’re having fun aren’t you?
tw: high, imhotep must be high on something
The one taken before the hurricane hit? That one?
All true, all essentially irrelevant.
As pointed out, they can hide in coastal waters quite readily. Shallow waters plays hell with SONAR anyway, now take a quiet diesel and it compounds the problem. They might find it difficult to make it US home waters, but that doesn’t mean they couldn’t threaten our allies and our assets in the Gulf region. Either of which is unacceptable IMO. Plus if they were a known threat, they could tie up additional assets such as our own submarine fleet to track them. Assets which could perhaps better be used to watch the Chinese and their shiny new submarines. The best submarine hunter is another submarine, NOT a surface ship, and our Fast Attack fleet appears to be shrinking, not growing.
OK, I have had enough Domaine Ste. Michelle tonight that were I in proximity to the blockhead that worte this…. I would be tempted to reach out and inflict physical damage.
I was in N.O. for Operation Crescent Relief, and I have been a part of the one group that does have a “can do” attitude in the federal “G” for sometime now. (Try – “mission first, people always” on for size.)
Actus – Feel fortunate I was not close enough to take offense and pop your head like a zit.
Todd, I can’t find “infactuation” in a dictionary anywhere, but I think it should be. In honor of actus.
Ric, I have to agree with this sentence: “And if this goes on much longer I’ll be ready to give it to them.” Because Iran’s been at war with us for 30 years. I’m ready to give it to them now. If for no other reason than to discourage the others.
Everybody give a cheer for the feckless Jimmy Carter (how’d you like to serve on that ship?), because, had he a spine, we wouldn’t be in this mess.
If they weren’t particularly concerned with being stealthy, could Iranian subs reach Venezuela? Or Cuba? How close would we let them get before it became an international incident?
I really have no idea, just thinking about possible plays they could make.
B Moe,
It’s a matter of fuel and endurance. That model of sub has an unrefueled range sufficient to reach the Caribbean on Diesel power, starting at Murmansk. The distance to Iran is roughly comparable.
It would be a remarkably stupid thing to do. Running on the surface under Diesel power, the sub would be about as stealthy as your average tramp freighter. Given the attention the Navy is likely to devote to them, it’s unlikely that they could go anywhere at all without being continuously monitored. If they were to succeed in doing anything notable, it would be time to clean house in the ASW branch of our Navy, preferably with something ridiculously violent just to make the point.
Staying within the Persian Gulf, the Iranian submarines could do some damage. Once they get out of that relatively restricted area they’re easy meat.
Regards,
Ric
Doggonit, you think I’d learn. I went over to mispauly’s blog and now I smell like pussy.
Hmmmm.
You know.
If we still had the CIA of 1950 then Ahimminadinnajacket would’ve been dead of a car accident a couple years ago. So would Hugo Chavez and a whole boatload of people in Saudi Arabia.
No offense to anybody but if I had a choice of fighting a war with someone or watching their funeral on a tv screen, I’ll take #2.
sw: Today a liberal made logical sense, but I’m making assumptions so go figure.
** PW Public service announcement **
– Brief bio of Steve the lesser (aka Imhoptep)
– Avered Independent (fake – hard core lefty)
– Avered “Religious Anarchist” (fake – Socialist/Marxist/Communist)
– Avered “Peacenik” (fake – Longs to watch Isreal go up in nuclear dust)
– Preaches a constant stream of peace and tolorance, between intolorant comments like “Warmongering Zionist Neocons”, “BushHitler”, “Greedy Jooos”. Tries for maximum irritation, and contraryness.
– Likes: Jihad, Bin Laden, Redistributing the wealth, France, Marx, using the word hate
– Hates: Bush, Anyone making over 45K/year, Bush, Jooooossss, Cheney, Conservatives, Bush, Mainstream Christians, Bush, Anything with the word America printed on it.
– Recent accomplishments: Banned from several sites, most notably Sistah Toldjahs, for being such a complete twit and insuferable ass.
– Tendencies: Drops crazy, assinine comments, ment to piss of readers, while being as sarcastic and as insulting as possible, with no intention of ever answering, or replying. Bomb thrower, non-debater.
– Snark rating: Signs every post with Peace, sometimes spelled Paece or Peece, depending on what floor cleaning product he has loaded into his bong at the moment.
– TTP Ranking: Generally grabs Verc5.2 or higher scores, achieveing Verc7.5’s on occassion. Not at the level of the leading numbskull actus, but competitive in terms of annoyance.
General threat level: All readers are cautioned to respond at your own risk of lost sanity, or temptations to commit grievious acts upon his head.
(we now return you to your regularly scheduled blog….)
I don’t know BBH, it is not every person that can quote Henry Clay without using spaces and misspell every third word, sign off with “Peace” and think he has so rocked your world.
I’m tempted to think of Actus’ Saturday nights, when he pulls out the hamsters and the surgical tubing and so rocks his boyfriend’s face…but that field just has been plowed too many times.
I say give Imhotep his due: His TTP rating is very competitive in the last few threads, achieving anywhere from 4 to 6 KiloVercies per comment. At this rate, the sum total of Imhotep’s wit will be enough to toast a piece of white bread. Lightly.
Sane person: Damn, that plane looks like it’s flying right toward the WTC!
Leftard: No, it isn’t.
Sane person: Damn, it’s heading straight friggin’ towards it!
Leftard: No, it isn’t.
KA-BOOM!
Sane person: JESUS H. CHRIST!
Leftard: It’s all Bush’s fault!
The rest of my comment, which got chopped up for some odd reason:
THE ETYMOLOGY OF DIFFERING POLITICAL STRATEGIES FOR DEALING WITH THREATS AND ACTS OF WAR,
By Mike Hendrix
Sane person, standing in lower Manhattan one fine September morn: Damn, that plane looks like it’s flying right toward the WTC!
Leftard: No, it isn’t.
Sane person: Damn, it’s heading straight friggin’ towards it!
Leftard: No, it isn’t.
KA-BOOM!
Sane person: JESUS H. CHRIST!
Leftard: OMIGOD OMIGOD HELP HELP SOMEBODY DO SOMETHING!
…
…
It’s all Bush’s fault!
Sane person: We must forever be on our guard to ensure that no dastardly sneak attack like this can ever occur again, and we must take preemptive steps to prevent such a recurrence as well.
Leftard: IT’S ALL BUSH’S FAULT! You paranoid, chickenhawk, fear-mongering bedwetting wingnut!
Sane person: Uh-oh; looks Iran has credibly threatened to destroy Israel with the nukes it is actively trying to build—along with the US if we try to thwart them in this plan—and they have a history of making good on most of the threats they make. We should consider what options we have to stop them.
Leftard: No they’re not, you bedwetting wingnut.
(repeat in perpetuity)
So nice to see that BBH, is paying such close attention. Perhaps when he gets his head completly removed from his ass he will be able to see clearly. I love Jews and especially Ashkenazi Jews, the heirs to Godfroi’s Septimanian Kingdom. I ain’t too fond of the Zionists, however. And you can make as much income as you like, but anything over $100,000 should be taxed at 100%. Peace
BBH, as you see in the above post, this troll is exquisite in other categories. No one should underestimate his worth to the science of troglodyology.
I’m glad he so loves Jews, especially the Ashkenazi Jews. It’s like how I love caviar, not that I’ve ever had caviar but I like the sound of caviar. Mmmmm, caviar. But Jews, especially Ashkenazi Jews, gee, well I just love those hairy be-shawled bastards. I mean, they could come over and spoon my girlfriend, and my wife for that matter.
Did you hear that they inherited a kingdom? Cha-ching!!! Love those yamulka-capering critters!
Whoops, well, how nice of you. Oh, is that 100K in Boise or 100K in Topeka or 100K in LA or 100K in Jersey? Of course, the less you open your mouth, Imhotep, the faster, and higher!, the average IQ of the rest of the world increases. Do us a favor: immigrate to Mexico.
War.
B. Moe & Ric Locke:
Actually, you’re posing an interesting scenario, I think, that perhaps deserves more att’n.
Consider the prospect of two Iranian Kilos visiting Venezuela.
Okay, USN maintains surveillance the whole way. Indeed, it’s easy to do, b/c the Iranians are steaming on the surface the whole way.
After reaching Caracas, and spending several days on liberty, being feted, etc., the Iranian boats leave port. And submerge. And return to Caracas, eight hours later.
At what point are these boats now a threat to US shipping? At what point, with a mine load-out, are they a threat to US ports? At what point would their presence, complete with SS-N-27 land-attack cruise missiles would they be a threat to US cities?
In the absence of actually belligerent action, could we strike at these boats? On what basis? Are they now a deterrent?
Better yet—Iran announces that it has sold these boats to Venezuela. The crews merely serve as a trainers until the Venezuelans are up to it. (Keep in mind, iirc, Venezuela has offered to sell its F-16s, perhaps a trade is in mind.) What then?
Mike  You got the Leftard’s line wrong: It’s never, “Somebody do something,” it’s “Why didn’t you do something?”
Personally, I’d order fast-attacks to shadow them, wait until one submerged over the abyssal zone, and then I’d sink it. Since the attack on a US embassy can be considered an act of war, the ethical issues don’t trouble me too much.
The remaining submarine is much less than half the threat as two submarines, because it’s impossible to keep one boat on patrol forever.
It would be extraordinarily difficult to prove that the submarine’s loss was anything but accidental, and it could be observed that the Soviet / Russian navy has, historically, blamed virtually every sumbarine loss on the USN or RN, without ever making a solid case.
End of a thread?
Hope somebody sees this.
Tuesday, May 09, 2006
Sunday, May 14th, 2006 [5 days old]
Israel will hit Iran in the next few months: Israeli official
By Khalid Hasan
WASHINGTON: Israel will strike Iran’s nuclear facilities in the next “month or two or three,†an Israeli official has been quoted here as saying.
The unnamed official told Arnaud de Borchgrave, editor-in-chief of the United Press International (UPI), at the recently held national day reception at the Israeli Embassy that he believed Israel would strike Iran first in the next two or three months and that fighter bombers would not be involved as they had been to take out Iraq’s Osirak nuclear reactor before it went critical in 1981.
For Osirak, Israel had used 14 F-15s and F-16s. This time, the Israeli said, it would be missiles. Asked if Israel would employ Cruise missiles, he replied, “with a gesture of his hand that went up and down againâ€Â, which meant that it would be the weapon of choice.
http://TonyGuitar.blogspot.com
Imhotep: New Zealand is emptying out. Plenty of cheap vacancies for the cheaply vacant.
And it hit the wires just as the hurricane did. Fantastic stuff.
Ric Locke –
”Assymetrical warfare can make us mighty uncomfortable, and I like being comfortable.”
There is certainly no gulf between us. Just shades of nuance.
On the “existential” level, I disagree with you in that we find ourselves as a people equal to the good family living in a shitty neighborhood.
We get up and go to work. Our capital reflects value for our efforts, our possessions the fruits of our labor, our clean white picket fence and tidy lawn marks of pride in our home.
The folks beyond that fence, camped out on the steps of brownstones from noon to the small hours, or loitering on corners waiting for marks, customers, or victims, don’t see us as neighbors or even as people. We are what they aren’t, and that’s enough to make us targets.
We try to live and let live. We don’t take – we are paid what we are owed, and are careful with debt, either as borrowers or lenders. We unconsciously respect others as we respect ourselves, work to make friends instead of enemies, and do business instead of thievery. We try all these things… but our best efforts are unavoidably influenced by the people we must deal with in our daily travels.
If it were only random unpleasantness on a sidewalk, no, the threat wouldn’t be existential. The threat posed by world jihadism interlocks directly into the spiritual void left by the extremes of western secularism – yes, the people you mention that we can probably get along without, without suffering fatal damage to the nation – by giving the unconscious nihilism of that gormless western polity a destination to head for, even if they don’t understand their part in navigating the path.
Problem is, I don’t want my family to be collateral damage. And I’m silly about patriotism, too – we are indeed an unum our of a magnificent pluribus, even if a vocal minority of the pluribus isn’t worth fertilizer in a fight.
The jihadis can’t win – no more than can the moonbat socialist utopians. I agree. But the big thing for both those unhappy tribes has never been about winning but rather making the grand effort in the struggle. Our Kennedy’s and Sarandons get their daily nut off making noise and garnering adulation; annoying but harmless as long as the limits of the Constitution still hold. The jihadis go happily into that loud pink mist just as long as they do not go alone – whether or not their fellow passengers to afterlife were remotely guilty of anything beyond being “other”…
There is no peace in a soul that must live behind walls or wire simply to stay alive.
I do not fear death but I loathe waste. I blanche at what the future will hold – what cost will be borne until the fatal conflict is resolved. There are too many crazies with too much money and too many ways to buy death wholesale. It’s like we read about Pearl Harbor, turned off the radio, and rolled over and went back to sleep.
Time fills.
TW = “square”. Hard to square “Die infidel” with “Bush lied”.
TMJUtah  You’re talking about “progressives” who don’t give a damn how many Cambodians, Rwandans, Darfur tribespeople, Iraqi civilians, Afghan women, Jews, etc., die so long as they aren’t inconvenienced on the patio of their local Starbucks.
Believe me, your family is a sacrifice they’re willing to make for world peace.
Progressives go to starbucks? The ones I know prefer local shops.
Exactly, all the progressives that actus knows think that going to a coffee shop is the most significant political act in which they engage.
That and to make sure that they don’t buy any of those miniature carrots that come from Israel.
FREE TIBET!
– I’d recomend the mini-carrots frpm Bolivia. Uncooked they’re uncomonly heavy in Arsenic, the choice of Dictator courts worldwide.
– and a bag of M&M’s…..pimf
Really? Good to know.
Good, sip coffee and don*t vote ..please. TG
Late back to this thread – littoral, shallow waters play heck with sonar. They are also death-traps for submarines. The sub must stay closer to the surface which makes it easier to spot and kill. and there are no depths to go for, the thermoclines a sub hides behind to fool sonar aren’t there. The maneuvering room is gone.
While it is a short hop to the war-zone, the straits would also be a very dangerous place for even a small submarine to operate. The routes to the harbors are known. Where do you run when the nets are all around you, when they know where you are before you ever launch a torpedo?
I don’t give the Iranian boats a long life expectancy.
Aaah, Now if MadMud Almondjeans reads this, he*ll see the folly of his sub plans and call the whole thing off. TG
So, in other words, it was the wire services doing the strumming? Bastards.
Either that, or one has to fuck severely with the definition of “while”.
It’s a bit late, Big Bang Hunter, but here are a few other tidbits about steve the lesser, aka Imhotep (I’ve also known him to refer to himself as ‘pecker’ on another blog), based on my own observations of him:
1. He claims he is completely against all forms of violence against other human beings, including abortion, but believes it should stay legal because the government should not infringe on the privacy of the mother. So, in other words, he feels that protecting a woman’s privacy is more important than protecting a human life. Can we say, ‘hypocrite’?
2. He claims that he doesn’t HATE anyone, just war, and that he instead prays for those who don’t agree with him. However, he frequently demonstrates massive hate against blog posters who disagree with him, or even make a general statement he is not in favor of. For instance, on one occasion, he referred to me as a ‘Fascist Warmonger Zionist’ just because I mentioned that I had put a Bush/Cheney bumper sticker on my car in the weeks leading up to the 2004 election, then also called me ‘weak, immoral, and without convictions’ because I removed the sticker on the night of the election (Even though I had explained to him that I did so because I was afraid if I kept the bumper sticker on after that and Bush won, some drunk Kerry supporter at my college might see it and try to vandalize my car). Again, he shows his hypocrisy.
3. He claims to be a Christian, yet many of the things he says and does are quite contradictory to this claim. For instance, he mentions that he believes false prophets like Siddhartha Gautama (Buddha) and the bloodthirsty pedophile Mohammad are just as spiritually important as Jesus. That is a lie, from Satan. Jesus said “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” He also frequently states that the Old Testament is good only for learning about the 10 Commandments. That is also a lie, and sad, since that idea would deprive people of reading the beautiful Psalms, the wisdom of Proverbs, and the prophecies which proved Jesus was the Messiah and the Son of God. His claim to be a Christian is further disproven by his support of Communism, a system of government which has persecuted and killed millions of Christians wherever it has been implemented. In fact, as a result of this, it is hypocritical for him to even claim to seek peace and value human life, since Communism killed more people in the 20th Century than all of the 20th century wars COMBINED!
4. As an extension of #3, I’ve also noticed that in most if not all of steve/Imhotep’s posts, he demonstrates two of the Seven Deadly Sins: Pride (Constantly acting like he is intellectually, morally, and spiritually superior to everyone who disagrees with him), and Envy (He frequently appears quite envious of the political power which conservatives have, which is why he regularly encourages that they all be impeached or removed from power by any means necessary; He’s also incredibly envious of rich people for their money, which is why he constantly suggests ridiculously unreasonable tax increases for the wealthy). Both are Deadly Sins which are quite common among radical leftists. Actually, his aforementioned envy of the wealthy for their money could probably qualify as Greed, too. Now, to be fair, I struggle with those sins from time to time, too, as I’m sure everyone does, but I at least try to not let them get too out of control. Steve/ Imhotep does not ever appear to do so, again proving that he is a false, poser Christian.
That’s all I have to say.