Black Hawk Down author Mark Bowden’s new Atlantic Monthly piece about the rescue attempt of the Iranian hostages under CinC Jimmy Carter contains this interesting bit, which may or may not provide some insight into the mindset of some in the “reality-based” community who still defend the disastrous Carter presidency:
Another presidential directive concerned the use of nonlethal riot-control agents. Given that the shah’s occasionally violent riot control during the revolution was now Exhibit A in Iran’s human-rights case against the former regime and America, Carter wanted to avoid killing Iranians, so he had insisted that if a hostile crowd formed during the raid, Delta should attempt to control it without shooting people. Burruss considered this ridiculous. He and his men were going to assault a guarded compound in the middle of a city of more than 5 million people, most of them presumed to be aggressively hostile. It was unbelievably risky; everyone on the mission knew there was a very good chance they would not get home alive. Wade Ishmoto, a Delta captain who worked with the unit’s intelligence division, had joked, “The only difference between this and the Alamo is that Davy Crockett didn’t have to fight his way in.†And Carter had the idea that this vastly outnumbered force was first going to try holding off the city with nonviolent crowd control? Burruss understood the president’s thinking on this, but with their hides so nakedly on the line, shouldn’t they be free to decide how best to defend themselves? He had complained about the directive to General Jones, who had said he would look into it, but the answer had come back “No, the president insists.†So Burruss had made his own peace with it. He had with him one tear-gas grenade–one–which he intended to throw as soon as necessary; he would then use its smoke as a marker to call in devastatingly lethal 40 mm AC-130 gunship fire.”
[My emphases]
“Devastatingly lethal,” eh? Well, I’ve been down that rhetorical road, so I’ll refrain from commenting on that particular piece of “genocidal ideation.”
But do note that Carter was, it seems (and admittedly, I posit this from the comfort of retrospect), more concerned with how the US would be perceived under his command than he was with the ability of Delta Force to defend themselves should the enemy turn out not to appreciate his showy attempt at moral high-mindedness.
That is, Carter had made his peace: appearing magnanimous and militarily restrained would, he believed, serve the greater good—which to Carter’s mind meant the world would, by dint of our gentleness and forebearance, come to see us as good and decent. And if it meant losing a few soldiers, well, at least Carter would have shown the doubters that the US, under his leadership, was willing to absorb its share of martyrs.
To some people, Carter’s actions might be seen as heroic; after all, Carter was betting that he could promote the cause of the US before a captive “world community” by minimizing our shows of strength, and in so doing, present us as a “good and moral” country (the assumption being that we had a lot of atoning to do).
To other people, though, Carter’s actions might be viewed, in retrospect, as supremely arrogant—particularly insofar as that arrogance was hidden beneath a veneer of “sacrifice” that he himself commanded. Worse, Carter’s calculus—that a show of restraint rather than a show of strength on the part of the US would weaken the cause of the Iranian “students”—was, some would argue, based on a reading of Islamic fundamentalism that was quite blinkered and, for all its pretensions to “understanding,” quite unwilling to accept at face value the nature of the ideology that was animating the Other.
And I don’t think it is too much of a stretch to suggest that one’s reading of Carter’s actions then are fairly predictive of where they stand now on how to prosecute the GWOT.
Or is it?
(h/t tpeters)
Quite a difference form “We want Perdicaris alive or Raisuli dead”, isn’t it?
word:serious “Carter was serious about this.”
IIRC, Carter asked whether “sleeping gas” could be used.
TW: makes, as in Carter makes me disgusted he was elected and proud we was sent packing and disgusted he still thinks he is in power.
When told that anyone seen holding/threatening a hostage would get shot “right between the eyes” Warren Chrostopher asked if it was possible instead to shoot them in a shoulder or a leg…
I’ll dig up the exact quote – but this is the type of man Carter had surrounded himself with.
Major John:
That’s rather funny, as I thought thigh-shootin’ was a relatively recent Bauer-ite innovation in the War on Terror.
The not-so-funny thing is that I think our anti-terror infrastructure and leadership is at least as blinkered and inept as their fictional counterparts at CTU.
Carter=SuicideHawk.
Major John, I see your keyboard is acting up again.
I think that quote comes from Col. Beckwith:
In the meeting, according to one writer, “Charlie mentioned that his Delta shooters would ‘take out’ the hostage guards.”
“Deputy Secretary of State Warren Christopher looked over at Charlie, eyebrows raised. ‘Take them out,’ Colonel?”
Beckwith replied: “Yes, Mister Deputy Secretary. We’re going to double-tap ‘em. Shoot ‘em each in the head twice.”
Christopher protested: “Couldn’t you just shoot them in the shoulder or something?”
Jimmy Carter, the worst President of the United States, hands down.
Unless, of course, Hillary actually manages to get elected. Then all bets are off.
TW: I hope things aren’t going in that direction.
Jim – exactly! Thanks for fiunding that. I think I saw PJ O’Rourke commenting on that one time.
As for my keyboard acting up. Nah, I just cannot type worth a damn.
We should have just told Carter that the embassy was surrounded by bloodthirsty rabbits. Then he would have carpet bombed the area surrounding the embassy in a heartbeat.
Major John,
Heh. I was giving you an out with the keyboard thing–plausible deniability and all that. And if it’s ink on the page, blame the printer. I know I do.
I didn’t know this. And this is not even remotly funny. I can maybe see that you would order someone, as a last resort, to use lethal force if you were attempting to capture an enemy to gain intelligence – but to flat out tell them to die rather than make you look bad to the rest of the world is ridiculous.
As Major John knows, when you order your men into combat, there are two objectives: one is the mission, as planned and the other is to get everyone back alive.
Unless, of course, you are a Kamikaze or a Jihadist with a suicide vest.
The really sad part is there wouldn’t have been any hostages if the Ambassador had let the Marines do their job and shoot “students” coming over the walls.
You didn’t see any students storming the Russian embassy, because they knew the Russkies would have shot them without hesitation.
The perception of weakness is what Carter simply reinforced. He was a weak man, and his leadership was a disaster for the US internationally as well as domestically (gas lines, anyone?)
Oh. My. God. Even for Carter that’s pretty terrible. Crowd control at those odds is ridiculous enough, but with people all freshly pumped up with theocratic revolutionary spirit on top it all? Sheesh.
Eccch. Just more evidence that Jimmy Carter is a hopeless shithead. Where were the anti-religion zealots of the left when that a-hole was elected? Oh, that’s right–they elected him. If you don’t love your own countrymen enough to value their lives, you’re worthless.
FYI: he never got me off.
tw: farm Can you say possessed?
Jimmy who?
Carter and Christopher were both whining little brats in a position of great power. Which is really, really bad.
My stepfather was SFOD-A at the time, and asked to join Delta by Beckwith… but he decided not to re-up and went into business instead. Good thing too, he would have been on those planes.
Back to Carter – he was simply incapable of dealing with reality, a spoiled child who reacted to the world as if it was what he wanted it to be rather than what it is.
And he hasn’t changed a bit. I guess if you haven’t grown up by the time you’re 40, you aren’t going to. Shame it had to be at a cost of so many human lives and so much suffering.
There’s a rule of thumb that the bottom 12% in any discipline are so bad that they can’t recognize how bad they are – self-rating is fairly reliable on down the scale until you get to the bottom, where people suddenly start rating themselves waaaaay higher than their actual ability.
So when someone says “In my analysis, Carter was one of our best presidents,” you can safely assume that their political analysis skill is in the bottom 12%.
Heh, Mojo. I’ve always assumed that’s the same reason we’ve never seen any al Qaeda attacks against China even though Afghanistan’s little panhandle borders China and the Chinese actively persecute Muslims.
If they’d crashed a plane into the Forbidden Palace on 9/11 there’d have been about a million Chinese soldiers in Afghanistan within a week and probably not too many Afghanis left today. Iran and Pakistan also would have gotten religion quick and kept the Chinese happy by merrily killing every damn Islamist they could find.
Sean – you echo somewhat a happy fantasy I have, of the U.S. finally and painfully getting over its oil addiction, with China become the M.E.’s no. 1 oil market. This changes the M.E.’s entire geopolitical strategy, since we’ll just ignore them (the M.E.) and China will become the new Great Satan.
Imagine the response to the first act of Islamo-terro against the PRC… well, see, you aleady have.
TW: And it was remarkably similar to what I’d imagined…
Actually, China has a full on war in the Guandong province. You don’t hear about it because its in the Guandong province (ie 10,000 farsangs past Bumfuck, Egypt and Nowheresville). Last year, I think the Chinese had a suicide bombing as a matter of fact.
Hey, at least Carter was willing to make the tough Presidential choice to sacrifice American soldiers for the good of the nation’s PR effort.
And there’s nothing that makes you look better than a tough Presidential choice.
TW: attack—so does Jeff select these things by hand?
This is the mindset of military use that is the basis for ABC’s “Commander in Chief.” The military can be used for all things except for killing people.
Carter believed in turning the other cheek before even being struck–masochism disguised as idealism.
I’m just wondering if this entire thread is just another rehash of the response to Dave Neiwert’s foray into the farcical.
Right-wingers: check
Hatred originating in racism: check
Racist-origin arguments being taken up by the rank-and-file: check
Furious goalpost-repositioning when the idiocy of such sweeping generalizations is brought up: check
Here is the direct link to the article for those interested (Free for all non-subscribers). Nothing surprised me in this article, but Bowden once again nails the fundamental fallacy of the “not-so” realism crowd to the tree for all to see.
Carter, along with his worshipers, live in world where non-violence can solve everything. If, they say, we only could be more like Ghandi, the oppression and tyranny that plagues the world can be defeated. If only we’d “give peace a chance.” Unfortunately, while I’m a big fan of malnourished little peacemaker, the Hitlers, Stalins, Maos, Hirohitos, Husseins and Khoemanis of the world didn’t have the sensibilities or temperment of 20th century Britain. Hell, even 18th century Britain didn’t have the same temperment.
Force is not a good thing–ever. But it is a necessary thing. A man like Carter in control of protecting our free society on the basis of a fallacy is good enough to win him a meaningless plaque in Scandanavia, however it is disasterous to a country who imperfectly tries to survive and protects its freedoms in a world with plenty of dubious company. The bullet is what contains guys like Mao and Stalin from killing billions instead of tens of millions.
Also, for those who don’t know Mark Bowden, he is a fantastic writer and someone whom we can learn a great deal from today. Read “Killing Pablo – The Hunt for the World’s Greatest Outlaw” and you can understand the realities, difficulties and perils of hunting down and killing a well-connected, powerful figure. Remember Bowden the next time someone snipes that we haven’t caught Zarqawi or Bin-Laden yet.
The kind of funny thing about this all is that tear gas and other non-lethal riot control gasses (smokes, etc.) are now forbidden for use in combat situations under the chemical weapons ban.
I think that it is entirely possible that President Carter was advocating violation of international treaty on such things.
BRD
Slarti wrote:
I’m just wondering if this entire thread is just another rehash of the response to Dave Neiwert’s foray into the farcical.
Right-wingers: check
Hatred originating in racism: check
Racist-origin arguments being taken up by the rank-and-file: check
Furious goalpost-repositioning when the idiocy of such sweeping generalizations is brought up: check
I’m sure your generic troll post works for most “winger” sites but did you actually read the post?
What is racist about saying Carter was a lousy Pres? Is hating Carter racist? Was the Iran hostage crisis racist (I guess if you have a chomsky view of history). I know you are just trollin’ and all but at least put a little effort into in man. I could use a good laugh by someone trying to defend Carter’s successful presidency.
Carter is a pussy. He made mistakes, and showed restraint in a horrifically dangerous situation.
Bush is not a pussy. He is manly, and I dream about his manly visage nightly. Bush never makes mistakes, only his subordinates do, which I would never acknowledge.
(carter is a pussy, who’s face my cock should slap)
Christ, if Jimmy Carter were president diring World War II how would he have ordered the troops to behave while landing at Normandy?
No shooting the Germans, Ike, they may hate us for that!
Interesting and similar to Clinton’s “problem” that our GIs might kill a few too many Somalian gangsters. It might have played badly on the evening news. Never mind that it was our own men who he put in harms way!
Shorter shorter Jeff Goldstein
Carter ordered men into combat on a dangerous mission then told them to kill themselves so he could look peaceful and caring.
That Carter – a verrry principled man.
Restraint? Handcuffing yourself before you jump into the gladitor arena, and then wondering why the lion is gnawing off your leg and you can’t do anything about it isn’t restraint. It’s suicide.
Is it a mistake to send men to their inevitable deaths in order to strike a pose for the rest of the world, or is it a deliberate and reprehensible act by a miserable CinC and even worse human being?
Shorter Jeff wrote:
Carter is a pussy. He made mistakes, and showed restraint in a horrifically dangerous situation.
Bush is not a pussy. He is manly, and I dream about his manly visage nightly. Bush never makes mistakes, only his subordinates do, which I would never acknowledge.
(carter is a pussy, who’s face my cock should slap)
Take a note Slarti, at least Shorter Jeff is on topic with his trolling though I would still like to read a somewhat serious defense of Carter. I really do need a good laugh.
Slarti…,
I just want to go on record as saying that I do not hate Jimmy Carter for having been a middle aged white man. If that makes me a racist, so be it. I don’t hate former President Carter at all. Contempt, disdain, and disgust are more accurate words to use in characterizing my feelings for that individual.
Regards,
Neil
Yes, I did, but I unfortunately posted this comment on the wrong thread. This here thread, this is the right thread.
Not sure how this could be construed as a troll to either thread, though.
Mojo,
FYI…Marine Security Guards are only responsible for internal security. This means that they are not allowed to protect the gates. That job is the responsibility of the host government.
As my tag implies, I was one of those Marines. When we got back to Germany the former president showed up for a meet and greet…I refused to go.
The one thing that really ticked off most of the Marines was that the bozo would try a RESCUE attempt. Heck, we just wanted the carpet bombing to start!
I can understand why some people today believe that the Carter presidency was unique in American history. After all, it was the first time that there were two First Ladies in the White House.
True, Jimmah may well have been our worst modern President, given that his ineptness in foreign policy resulted in Iran (a US ally when he came into office) becoming the cradle of Islamic extremism and Nicaragua (another ally when he came into office) becoming one of the largest enablers of terrorism in the Western Hemisphere.
And he did preside over one of the worst US economic recessions in modern history. And he did, through his cardigan-wearing, fireside chats,
instill in the public an immense sense of impotence and helplessness (but, in fairness, since Rosalynn kept his balls under lock and key in her purse after his “lust on my heart” interview in Playboy the impotence is understandable).
However, let’s not forget the great job he did in personaly scheduling the White House tennis court, cause we all know what an important, difficult responsibility that was!
Hey Slarti,
no problem man. I can understand how hard it is for you to see what and where you’re typing with your head so far up the posterior opening of your alimentary canal.
…not that there’s anything WRONG with that.
I guess it’s now someone else’s turn to leave comments they’ll be embarrassed about later. I’m all about sharing.
Just to save a couple of rounds back and forth, here’s the response I referred to, which I obviously agree with in full.
Enjoy.
FH: congrats on getting out, anyway.
But are you saying the MGD would NOT have fired on people coming over the compound walls, even without the Ambassador’s stand-down order? With the “host government” non-existant (or “in transition”), and an armed, screaming mob outside?
I gotta question that. I sure as hell would have.
SB: soviet
gulag
Link please?
I remember some angry farmer mixing a little urea and diesel then blowing himself up but that was in a different province.
Maybe when Clinton had the Chinese embassy bombed (and then lied about it… not that he shouldn’t have bombed the embassy) he should have tried to pin it on the muslims… not that it matters because the muslims in China don’t even dare sneeze funny.
Odd; I’d thought that was due to an error made by DMA/NIMA/whatever the hell it’s called these days.
GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAL!
Ehh, nevermind, Steve G. I’m a moron. I meant Xinjiang versus Guandong (which is goddamn Hong Kong; I’ve been there, it has gone downhill but Bosnia, it ain’t). I’m going to just crawl back down to my parent’s basement and play with my Star Trek and My Little Kitty collection now in penance.
/engaging with the outside world. Hello, cyber hermitage.
My Little Kitty = Hello Kitty.
TW: time as in “What time is it? Noon? I’m exactly six hours, and twelve beers, behind my usual drinking schedule.”
/will to live
Verc,
You will have to do penance for your mishap. I order you to drink 18 beers instead of twelve.
And I admonish you to not repeat your error.
The closest I’ve been to China is the border along Yunnan province.
Great animal parts markets if you are into that sorta thing….
Me:
“ummmmmm no thanks. no Burmese river otter penis for me today… hey why is that old lady laughing at me…. yeah, so I told her I don’t have any kids, that’s by choice not… ok give me a little piece… oh that’s funny too huh?… yeah I’m the guy who fell through the bamboo floor of the community toilet in the village down river… you guys heard that all the way up here?… I gotta go while I still have a little dignity left”
Vert! Guandong isn’t really Hong Kong. It is across the border from Hong Kong. Two more beers for you.
…and of course I mean Ver*c*! No beer for me.
Hmmmm.
Frankly I’d have ordered installation of General Electric mini-guns all along the compound’s walls at the very first sign of trouble.
Let’em storm that bastard.
Hmmmm.
It’s like people complaining about cops not shooting weapons out of the hands of criminals instead of shooting the criminals.
Utterly insane.
Hmmmm.
Yup the Uighurs.
Uighurs
I believe it was a suicide bombing on a bus.
Cyrus Vance resigned because he opposed this use of force.
I…any body…need beer…more…HEY…I don your tone of face.
You…hey, man…you, you look funny…okay, okay, okay…okay, okay. I got it.
Okay. Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Okay. Rls, man, you’re kewllll. No, shut up. I mean it, man. Remember I…was over there, man…and then you did…so crazy man, the girl…her name…Hamscher’s vagina…
Maybee, MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYY-be. MAY-beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. Maybeee. MAY-BEEEEEEEEEEE.
Oh, Maybee, come on. Huh? Hey, I love…hey, hey, hey…come on…I love you…no, shut up. I mean it…the love, not the shut up…but shut up, man, because I mean it…
[passing out]
And don’t you guys write on me…where’s actus? Roll me onto my back…actus…guys…likes.
I sure do hope that you wake up in the morning with your trousers in place and laying on your back, the Vaseline still in the medicine cabinet and all your empties accounted for.
Don’t worry about acthole – I have it on good authority his mom won’t let him leave the house after dark.
<steps carefully, looking slowly all around>
I miss all the best parties.