From the Jerusalem Post:
According to a Thursday report on Al-Jazeera, the Hamas government will recognize Israel if Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders.
Hamas officials close to Palestinian Authority Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh expect Haniyeh to announce the change in the organization’s platform in the next few days, Army Radio reported.
The international community has pressured Hamas since the group assumed power to acknowledge Israel’s right to exist. The United States and the European Community have even frozen aid to the PA, with the exception of humanitarian assistance.
It tells you something about an organization when it is big news that they’ve decided—provisionally—to acknowledge the right of another state “to exist.”
And yet these people still find supporters—at least for their “political” platform—among many Americans and Europeans.
Which just goes to show what a genius Flannery O’Connor really was, I’d argue…
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(h/t Allah)
Only Hamas could go to Tel Aviv.
Make a useless gesture to get the fiscal stopcock open again, eh? I reckon once the bank is full up, they can cite some sort of “Zionist intrangisence” (ie. Jerusalem) and go back to jihad.
The real test is to see whether this is “good enough” for the West to start writing checks again.
It shouldn’t be, for the simple reason that Israel cannot withdraw to its 1967 borders, as I understand them, without a) tearing down portions of its security wall, and b) surrendering the superb rocket-launching ground of the Golan Heights to Syria.
There’s not one Israeli politician who can make that deal and survive in office, so the deal is a non-starter, and is clearly being offered for mere window dressing.
So, who’s buying it? It’s clearly not meant for Israel’s consumption, but I’m wagering that it will earn Hamas a big warm hug from the EU who will hand over the cash, and will then profess outrage when Israel doesn’t say “let bygones be bygones” and give in to the demand. I’m not thinking that it will be good enough for us.
Politically, a smart maneuver by Hamas—they give up nothing, and yet ask Israel to pay for the deal with the blood of its citizens. The question is, will sensible folk let these murderers now claim the moral high ground?
Usual suspects, please step forward . . .
It shouldn’t be, for the simple reason that Israel cannot withdraw to its 1967 borders, as I understand them, without a) tearing down portions of its security wall, and b) surrendering the superb rocket-launching ground of the Golan Heights to Syria.
and c) giving up the old city of Jerusalem. Can you imagine Hamas guaranteeing access to the city to anyone but Muslims?
Not to be a wet blanket, but this is Hamas we are talking about. Why should we believe a word out of their lying murderous mouths?
I think the U.S. should adopt this tactic. Let’s refuse to recognize Mexico and Canada’s right to exist, unless they withdraw to Spain, France and England.
So, they’re going to “recognize” Israel, while presumably still calling for its destruction, if Israel surrenders territory.
Next time, they’ll demand 1948 borders.
Then, 1946 borders.
tw: Only Europe could fall for that…
Next thing you’ll know Hamas will ask for a cease-fire.
And I’m sure we all know the definition of a Palestinian cease-fire.
Doesn’t Hamas have a cease-fire now? Or they did during the elections?
In related news: Egypt has agreed to recognize Israel if they will return to the 1700 BC borders. That is, return to the land of Goshen and get back to building those pyramids!
Don’t anyone ever say that irony isn’t lost on actus…
“A Good Man is Hard to Find.”
Creepy story, apt analogy.
f
Yes, O’Connor hits it exactly.
Hamas was referring to the Border’s bookstore located at 1967 Kaufingerstrasse, Munich.
I don’t follow the everyday turns of this conflict. Are they still claiming to be under a cease fire? Are they attackign under it? Google news shows some attacks, but not attributed to Hamas. It shows israeli retaliations and strikes, and it shows the military wing of hamas calling for more retaliations, but not its political wings. Not clear to me if there still is a claim of a cease fire, or even a de facto one, from Hamas.
That’s what I’m asking.
actus, I’ll spell it out for you in easy to understand terms.
There has never been a cease fire between the Israelis and the Palestinians in which the Palestinians actually abided by the terms of the cease fire.
There have been “cease-fire agreements”, but the Palestinian security orgs simply look the other way while the Hamas’s and the Hezbollahs of the world operate directly from Palestine when they attack Israel. The PLO and the Palestinian authorities have never been successful in dismantling the terrorist groups that operate freely in Palestine.
This is why over the last three years Israel has decided it will dismantle these groups on its own since the Palestinians have no intention of doing so.
Did that help?
Not realy. Because I heard Hamas had issued a cease fire. I’m wondering if they did follow that, and if they still are claiming to be under it. Hamas is not “the palestineans” nor are they the only people with guns and missles and bombs and the ability to attack in Palestine. So a Palestinean attack not related to Hamas doesn’t tell me much about whether Hamas has stuck to its cease fire.
Also, nor does a Hamas attack when someone else promises a cease fire tell me much about Hamas following its own claims of cease fires.
I don’t know why I’m bothering but I’ll try and break this down again for you actus.
All of the Palestinians groups (Hamas, the PLO, the Palestinian Authority, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, whatever) who say that they agreed to a cease fire with Israel are LYING.
Does that help?
Classic Islamist move…
keyword: hudna
Fuck Hamas.
Darleen beat me to it. Actus, if you have any desire to be taken seriously, look up the word ‘hudna’. You can google it, and I’m sure Daniel Pipes and Little Green Footballs will have lots of explanatory notes as well.
Then come back and let’s have a straight conversation about the reality of the so-called ‘separation’ between the ‘political’ wings and ‘military’ wings of Hamas, or Hezbollah, or Fatah. We’ll even let you pick your terrorist organization, just so you can be sure we’re playing fairly with you.
You actually have an opportunity to change some minds here. Then again, you may not care….
This is actually a very clever move by Hamas. As The Collosus pointed out, their proposal is one that Israel could never accept. At the same time, they can legitimately claim to have acknowledged Israel’s right to exist, albeit conditionally, thereby negating much of the criticism leveled at them by Western states. I suspect that this will indeed be a good enough maneuver to get the aid money rolling back in, at least from European countries, if not from the USA.
So you’re saying that Hamas has attacked under its claimed cease fire? Ok. Thats it. I thought they were sticking to their claimed cease fire. But you know they have attacked under it.
I understand the idea. I want to know if that is the case, if Hamas has attacked during its claimed cease fire.
actus, you are an idiot.
I regret my efforts to educate you on the realities of Palestinian politics, and they shall cease forthwith.
TW: child– as in “don’t try and teach a child particle physics.”
Please. I was educated. I asked if they’re sticking to their cease fire. You tell me no. That means there was a hamas attack during the cease fire. I haven’t heard of one, but I don’t really follow this stuff. You know better than me, and I’ll believe you that there was one.
this is the last time actus, I promise you.
In terms of Palestinian politics, Hamas=Hezbollah=Fatah=Islamic Jihad=the al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades=the PLO=the Palestinian Authority=Al-Jabhah al-Dimuqratiyyah li-Tahrir Filastin=the Popular Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine= Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine=Jabhat al-Tahrir al-Filistiniyyah=The PLF=Abu Abbas=Tal’at Ya’akub etc. ad nauseum.
They all have the same goal, and they all have had their hands soaked in the blood of Jews. If one declares a cease-fire, then the others simply “split off” and attack Israel with the rest of the groups support.
As recent as today the the al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigade attempted to attack Israel in the Kissufim crossing in the southern Gaza Strip.
So to answer your question, no the Palestinians have not “stuck to the cease fire”.
Actus:
Fair question.
They are sticking to their cease fire. It will last until they attain their yearly allowance from the Western powers. Afterwards there will be a few months of calm, then their bombings will coninue.
Because Hamas will be the government Hamas will not bomb Israel while so. Why give the Israelis a chance to target their parliament? They will probably take the Arafat strategy. Arafat used various front groups and “break away” groups as cover for military action. For example, Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade a “PLO related” faction was claimed to be “renegade” although on the PA payroll. Hamas may well set up some front organizations with enough plausible deniability of command and control.
The problem for Hamas is they don’t have the cachet Arafat does. Some Western Europeans felt a revolutionary attachment to Arafat and the PLO due to leftist/Marxist politics. There was also a degree of paying protection money – PLO military activities ceased in Europe once payments began.
Hamas has no leftist identity, and its religious identity is loathsome to many Euros. Also it has not started bombing campaigns in Europe as bargaining chip for money.
The French will continue to pay for the right to feel they have a semblance of influence on the region.
But this might be the opportunity for the Euros to break free. Certainly they can point to Saudi Arabia and ask why the h*** they are supporting their “brothers.”
Hope that helps.
Oh. no. Sorry I listened to you.
Sounds like it would be a good idea to condition the money on the cease fire.
Guys, this is typical acthole. Please remember that the pimple on your ass will heal if you leave it alone. Obligatory ignore acthole comment.
actus
This is VERY simple… Hamas telling the kaffir that it will “recognize” Israel or stick to a “cease fire” has no real credibility. Why? Because they are operating under this authority:
Tell me, actus, has Hamas renounced or withdrawn this Covenant?
There, for you in stark, unequivocal words is the goals Hamas has set out. Not only the annihilation of Israel, but the conquest BY RELIGIOUS RIGHT any land that any moslem has ever claimed as theirs. That includes a huge portion of Europe and Africa. Furthermore, if you read up on the widely held concept of dar ul Harb and dar ul Islam, war with the infidel(kaffir) IS NEVER OVER until the world is united AS dar ul Islam and everyone submits and is ruled by Sharia.
The burden of proof is not with Israel or the US to prove Hamas is not dealing in good faith. We have that proof one thousand times over.
Why are you so eager to risk the lives of Jews, gays and women just because a known quantity like Hamas smiles and says “Nevermind”?
I know you cannot be ignorant of the situation so…
Are you a Chamberlain or a quisling?
Thats the thing. I’ve heard their words—which include a cease fire. I wanted to know about their actions: did they keep to it. Are they keeping to it? I’ve heard other words from them, like the ones you quoted.
I think that reality is different than party platforms and covenants and whatnot. And I’d like to know what the reality is when Hamas says they are in a cease fire.
Do you think I should get Lucy to promise to not pull the football away next time?
If she does, she won’t get paid.
I think that reality is different than party platforms and covenants and whatnot.
What the fuck WHY, actus? Exactly what evidence do you have to even begin to support your claim?
That’s what I’m asking for, evidence. Have they kept their cease fire. As far as I know, that’s the only promise Hamas has ever made.
But in general, I think that groups like Hamas and whatnot deal not just with their ideologies, but also reality. How are they doing so far on the cease fire?
actus
Are you aware of CA three strikes statute? Do you know why the legislation, one of the toughest in the nation, was passed in one of the most “liberal” states of the nation?
Because we got tired of career criminals. People who stood in court, convicted of crime for the 10th or 15th time who said “But Judge, I’m reformed. I learned my lesson” who would then get a suspended sentence and probation and they WOULD do part of the probation…(you know, like “honoring” a cease fire for a few months)..then surreptitiously go right back to crime. The last straw was the Polly Klaas case.
Hamas alone, since 1988 has committed terrorism over and over again. They have shown a fanatical commitment to their stated and published aims as I posted above.
They have gone beyond 3 strikes. There is no way, no evidence they have offered yet to clearly demonstrate they have changed.
They are CAREER CRIMINALS.
No quarter.
If you don’t accept this actus, I have no choice but to consider you a Quisling.
Do you hate Jews that much?
I’ve heard they were under a cease fire for the entire election—in contrast to the Fatah people. Thats quite fanatical and committed. Frankly I wouldn’t be surprised if their approach is quite unlike Arafat. He made promises he didn’t want to, or couldn’t keep. Hamas? They’ll just not make those promises. They do seem to have more control than Arafat.
I haven’t yet heard of a cease fire they violated. I wouldn’t be surprised if they have. I’m real surprised they made a ceasefire and have, apparently, kept to it.
By an amazing coincidence, I would support recognizing Hamas if THEY withdrew to THEIR 1967 borders…
For actus, the answer is “Yes”.
Hamas is not honoring a ceasefire; they’re just hoping no one interrupts them now it’s their turn to pillage…
Hamas is not sticking to the cease-fire. They are aiding and taking part in terrorist attacks, but they are not claiming them as attacks by Hamas.
Here is your most current evidence: Hamas terrorist captured in the last 24 hours.
You know, if I didn’t know better, I’d say actus was a troll, and you’re all feeding it.
As to the person who said this was a clever ruse by Hamas: Not so much. The EU seems to be actually holding to its statement that Hamas must recognize Israel, past agreements, and give up “violence” (love that euphemism) in order to get the cash flowing again.
Well, except for UNRWA. And all the “humanitarian” aid projects.
My money is on Hamas being unable to stop its leadership from saying, “We never said anything about ‘67 borders!” They’re doing that consistently these days. The media pick up on a Hamas “moderate” statement, Hamas denies they said it, meant it, or would carry it out. In English. To the international media.
These guys are full of self-inflicted wounds. And you have no idea how much I am cheering them on to keep doing this.
Thats what I’m looking for. Thanks.
Ah…but you see, young dumb one, she has already been paid to not pull the football. There’s the quandry. Now she needs to get unpaid.
Then you pay her again the next time she promises not to pull the football.
Then you pay her again the next time she promises not to pull the football.
Then you pay her again the next time she promises not to pull the football.
Then you pay her again the next time she promises not to pull the football.
Then you pay her again the next time she promises not to pull the football.
etc.
Why? just pay after, not before.
Boring, boring. Every one of these comments is just “Hamas are terrorists, fuck them.” For example (sorry if I’m beating up on a girl here but y’all sound the same anyway):
Not only the annihilation of Israel, but the conquest BY RELIGIOUS RIGHT any land that any moslem has ever claimed as theirs. That includes a huge portion of Europe and Africa. Furthermore, if you read up on the widely held concept of dar ul Harb and dar ul Islam, war with the infidel(kaffir) IS NEVER OVER
Are you seriously threatened by this? The Palestinians are bankrupt, they have no weapons, no army, and are probably pumping out babies to make up for all the ones that blow themselves up and/or are rocketed by Israeli helicopters. Just the other day the Hamas leader said they will “eat cooking oil” to survive if they have to. And the rest of the Muslim world is similarly impoverished, otherwise Hamas would have no trouble getting funding. Watch out! They’re throwing stones!
I guess you can say terrorism works. Y’all are completely terrified of Hamas.
At least Hamas has the dignity to get democratically elected. When was the last time we held a free election (for president) in the US of A?