Two emails I received today point to posts that show the divide among the Republican voting coalition over the issue of illegal immigration.
First, here’s Confederate Yankee’s Bob Owens:
That empty, sick feeling of betrayal in your stomach resulting from Senate Republican’s selling their constituents down the river with their immigration compromise does has a name.
It’s called being Fristed.
Sadly, it can only be cured by ballots.
See also, Ace. And here’s Tigerhawk, taking a different tack:
I started writing a short post on one of the stupider anti-immigrant proposals I have seen—to tax wire transfers to Mexico—and it turned into a full-scale rant on the politics of illegal immigration. I suspect that I am going to make a lot of conservatives unhappy, but I really think that most of the public discussion of this issue is astonishingly disingenuous. Please give it a read, and think about whether we are really being straight on the subject.
Clearly, this is an issue that divides members of the Republican voting bloc, some of whom are libertarian, some of who veer toward Buchananite isolationism, but the vast majority of whom, I suspect, are trying to work through the problem—and illegal immigration is a problem, particularly to those communities whose resources are being drained by illegals who game the system (be it for healthcare benefits or schooling, etc) and drive down low-skill job wages—pragmatically, so that a practicable solution can be found.
To get this out of the way: I think the Bill O’Reilly idea of putting National Guard troops on the border is ludicrous; the first illegal shot while trying to cross would raise an international incident, and I don’t think that’s the goal here. Plus, O’Reilly is a putz.
Having said that, I also find it laughable that some in the US are of the opinion that we are responsible for setting out water dishes in the desert for those trying to make it here illegally.
Which places me about in the middle, I should think. I support guest worker programs and earned citizenship. But I also support the enforcement of our current immigration laws—and am particularly interested in re-promoting the idea of assimilation.
From where I stand, the immigration question is complicated precisely because it needs to be broken down into several pieces. First, we must realize that it will impossible to deport the 11-12 million illegals already in the country and so those of us who are serious about our sovereignty—and believe that if the rule of law is to be followed for pulling over people not wearing seat belts, it had damn well better be followed when it comes to fighting illegal entry into the country—are going to need to bite the bullet and make a compromise that allows those already here illegally to work toward citizenship.
Of course, such a compromise would be a lot easier for the more conservative members of the Republican coalition to take were we as a country simultaneously working to fix the other parts of the problem: the CONTINUED influx of illegals and the drain on resources this influx is creating in those border states where illegal crossing are at their highest numbers. Illegal immigration is also affecting the cultural millieu: bilingual education, etc., are anti-assimilationist ideas; America has an honored history of accepting immigrants. But the melting pot metaphor that is quintessentially American is predicated on assimilation. On the other hand, the “quilt” concept—which rejects the melting pot idea and is pushed by the multiculturalist crowd—leads often to Balkanization, ethnic ghettos, and racial animus.
One need not be a nativist to advocate for the enforcement of established laws, passed by the will of the people through their representatives in the legislature. Which means, to me at least, one need not even put forth an economic, national security, or fiscal argument to support measures that would uphold the law.
Though there are some people who will fit the descriptions, those who advocate for fences (and I’m not yet sure where I stand on this, exactly) are not necessarily ”racists” or “bigots,” just as those who advocate for open borders are not necessarily trying to hand parts of the west and southwest “back” to Mexico by way of stacking the voter rolls [see, for instance, the WSJ editorial page].
But if we’re going to make compromises for illegals already in the country, we should make concommitant commitments to cutting off the flow of subsequent illegals in the ways that are most effective for protecting our sovereignty. These are our laws, after all. And they should be either enforced or eradicated.
And most people, I suspect, would like to see them enforced—which is how they came to be law to begin with.
****
update: Rob Port has additional thoughts.
To be clear, I don’t support “amnesty”—but rather advocate for earned citizenship that would require something else in addition to duration of time spent in the country illegally (community service hours are one idea; I’m sure we can come up with others, in addition to those included the legislation.)
Or eradicated. Let’s let anyone in, but barcode their ass on arrival, and make sure they understand that failure to comply with our laws, now that they are here, will make them wish they stayed in Mexistan. Oh, yeah, and let’s get some meaningful ID based security laws on voting, OK?
“I also support the enforcement of our current immigration laws”
You’d thing that in a nation ruled by laws, not men, that last word in the above sentence wouldn’t require two modifiers.
Heck, it isn’t just the border communities. I live in Northern Illinois, and my town pays for this too. Try getting service in an emergency room, whoo.
The governor of our great state decided that illegals should get in-state tuition too. Don’t look to Illinois for any good ideas…
I agree 98% with this paragraph. You’d get the other 2% just by writing it “I support enforcement, but I also support guest workers”. Small difference, but I think the proper priority of these two items needs to be addressed. An enforcement only bill would be a start. A guest worker only bill would be a bad start.
Given the stresses illegals are placing on their beloved welfare-state institutions, we could probably find some strange bedfellows for a sensible policy among our lefty friends on this one.
You know, if you’re into strange bedfellows. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
First things:
We can deport 11 million illegal aliens. Hell, some airports probably carry that many passengers per year, but all we need are buses. Greyhound carried 21 million people last year. We can do it.
We shouldn’t sweep through the barrio with the goose-stepping horror of Minutemen or our AmeriKKKa’s Imperial Stormtroopers, but if you are in this country illegally, you get a speeding ticket, you go to Mexico.
If you miss a car payment or have a late fee at Family Video, you go to Mexico.
There should be a one-time, penalty-free registration or bureau or other agency. Make it across the border, cool, register here and we’ll cut you some slack. Don’t do it, hey, you sneeze, you wipe your nose in Cancun, hombre.
Hmmm.
1. Actually I’ve been writing one single long-assed post on this subject so get ready for a really boring comment by me later on. Feel free to ignore it, I probably will.
2. The primary issues I have with the guest worker program are:
A. Are there limits on how many are allowed in under the program?
B. How can you enforce these limits when you’re not willing to enforce the existing ones?
C. How will you enforce the limits if the GOP is so adverse to building a wall?
D. Will guest workers live and work in America for up to 5-6 years with only minimal contact with their families back home?
E. How will you prevent XXX, as a non-racially identified example, from bringing his ailing mother, pregnant wife and 4 kids into the country to live with him while he’s here?
F. How will you expel XXX, and his family, after 5-6 years of work under the guest worker program?
…
Frankly I’m far to the conservative right on this issue because nobody is willing to stand up and answer the multitude of questions. Instead it’s either a vast impersonal silence or a hopeful “we’ll fix that! You bet!”.
1986 conservatives got fucked on the amnesty with promised enforcement of existing laws as the lube.
2006 conservatives are getting fucked on the amnesty without any promised enforcement of existing laws and so no lube for you.
Color me unimpressed with the GOP.
sw: A third party candidate, the other political choice.
“We can deport 11 million illegal aliens. Hell, some airports probably carry that many passengers per year, but all we need are buses. Greyhound carried 21 million people last year. We can do it.
We shouldn’t sweep through the barrio with the goose-stepping horror of Minutemen or our AmeriKKKa’s Imperial Stormtroopers, but if you are in this country illegally, you get a speeding ticket, you go to Mexico.”
Agreement.
Assuming the negative is a reason to do nothing – and then continue to do nothing when the number hits 20, as it will do at this rate.
Our politicians are trying to sell us the idea that they can’t act now, due to their corruption, but if only we legalize the vast majority of them, suddenly they’re going to become even less beholden to those groups, and interest groups in question.
HAH, fat chance. The longer this takes to solve, the less chance it will be solved, and they like it that way.
Ed, a good start, but of course not all.
What about their kids? Are we going to change the constitutions so that they don’t get automatic citizenship?
If businesses hire them because they are cheaper now, why won’t they continue to do so even in the face of a more expensive and cumbersome ‘guest worker’ program?
On and on…
but barcode their ass on arrival
Guard: “Moon to pass….Moon to pass….”
I think this is the most important of the subtopics you identified, ed, from a political standpoint.
Republicans who vote for this will be bludgeoned in the primaries by challengers questioning Congressional will to enforce.
The argument, “This time we’ll do better” is not very impressive.
TW: summer, as in “These Republicans are going to have a rough summer.”
As to assimilation: I posit the “stew” model, as opposed to either the melting pot (in which all differences are removed and you get a single homogeneous mass – clearly not something we’ve ever had) or the tossed salad (in which the ingredients remain separate and unchanged by one another). In stew, you can still discern the separate ingredients, but they’re affected by one another and to an extent melt into one another, and there’s a main ingredient that provides the “identity” of the stew.
All of which rather belabors a not-very-important point… Back to you, serious people.
Jamie, I’d say we’ve never had a complete ‘melting pot,’ out of sheer cultural inertia among immigrants.
The importance is rejecting the idiotic notion of a “salad,” whereas we make a point of celebrating our differences and dual loyalties rather than shared traits as Americans, with a passed on and adopted American tradition (i.e. English, history, civic pride, etc).
My two cents:
1) Demonstrate that functional border control…a trickle not a flood.
2) Then and only then consider what to do about illegals…I, for one, would favor amnesty and I think most Americans would too.
3) A guest worker program (why does anyone think that a large fraction would not simply stay?) is not really necessary with the possible exception of areas near the Southern border. But they can raise their wages…the workers will come.
I have an idea that may upset some in California, but I’m not sure that’s exactly an obstacle. Why don’t we cede Califronia back to Mexico? This would probably placate La Raza and the other radical groups here in the US and what woul we really miss? I bet the green fees at Pebble would drop by 50%. And after a few years the Mexican government would screw it up so bad that they would give us free oil for a year just to take it back.
4) Establish an internet based semi-lottery based on skills to greatly expand legal immigration from Mexico and South America. Like it or not we are going to need more workers. The demographics for the next 40 years are deadly. And we don’t need any more muslims in this country…they are too dangerous. NBC go fuck yourself…and BTW I hate NASCAR.
OT…just turned on the tube to check if the Masters was and every single MSM (I don’t get Fox) was breathlessly reporting about the “new” revelations about Bush approval of release of NIE. Lockstep media? I rest my case.
“Like it or not we are going to need more workers. The demographics for the next 40 years are deadly.”
Sure, and you can get those workers from just about anywhere…notably not the resentful country south of the border.
Jeff- I agree with almost every word of what you say. I read Tiger Hawk last night, and while I agree that taxing wire transfers to Mexico is an absolutely horrible and unsupportable idea, I don’t agree with almost anything else he said.
The foundation of a nation relies on borders, a definition of who are citizens of the nation, and the rights afforded the citizen of that nation both within and outside of those borders. It is among a nation’s most basic responsibilities to protect its borders and its citizens.
Enforcing immigration laws is vital, no matter where the immigrants are coming from. As you know, I am a US citizen living legally and temporarily in Japan. I know that our entire family could be deported for even a slight infraction of the law. Driving without a proper license, or a drug violation from one of my kids…and we’re out of here. I have a friend that has difficulty crossing the border to Canada because he has a drunk driving arrest on his record, and Canada doesn’t want to import trouble. Canada doesn’t hesitate to enforce it’s borders. It isn’t a cruel or impossible thing to do.
I understand the empathy toward the poverty-stricken people that go the the US from Mexico. Mexico’s poverty- in fact world poverty- is a separate issue from legal immigration into the US. Tying them together makes it all very complicated, just as outsourcing jobs is complicated by the fact that people in India and Vietnam are impoverished and needs jobs.
In the end, because the issue is like a tangle of fish hooks, everyone is going to have to expect some compromise. I only hope the discussion and negotiations remain respectful.
Cutler, the constitution does not say that children born in this country of foreign nationals are automatically citizens. That was a judicial interpretation of a clause in the 14th Amendment. There is a very good argument to be made that that interpretation is dead wrong. No other country in the world is stupid enough to say that anyone born there is a citizen.
Jeff, nobody is suggesting that we run out and try to deport 11 million people. We can deport them as we find them, whether it’s when they commit a crime, or just come in contact with law enforcement. Most police departments aren’t even allowed to ask someone about their citizenship status. It’s absurd.
As for “earning citizenship,” what makes you think that they want that? Why would they want to deal with the bureaucracy, and have to pay taxes, and medical insurance, and have to deal with all the other shit when they can get paid under the table, and come and go as they please, and get free health care at emergency rooms? Where are they going to get the money to pay these 2-4,000 dollar fines?
Speaking of which, 95% of these Mexicans are dirt-poor and uneducated. Do you think they’ll magically change once they’re citizens? No, they’ll continue to run our schools into the ground, put hospitals out of business, and cost the taxpayers billions of dollars annually.
Spamword, “enough.” I’m beyond being scared anymore.
First, this should dispel any notion that the republican party is in thrall to the far right. Second, I don’t see why it’s ludicrous to entertain the idea of putting up a fence and then guarding it with 10 or 20 thousand troops. It would definately put a stop to the lions share of illegal immigration.
As for what to do with the 11 million who are here? Well after we shut down the border they are stuck here. We simply step up interior enforcement and use the threat of withholding federal funds to force sanctuary cities to go along. Then we let time do its work, they wont be able to become citizens (obtw I think we should stop granting children of illegals citizenship) and they wont be able to go home and come back. Over time they will leave or we will eventually catch them and send them back. Some may live here for the rest of their lives but that is ok we are getting ready to give them citizenship anyway. It’s ridiculous to paint it like we have to deport all of them tomorrow. Even if we wanted to how would we find them all?
Then we set up a very loose guest worker/path to citizenship pipeline to allow controlled but substantial immigration. In reality all we really need is a fingerprint database before they come in so we can keep track of whether they get in legal trouble after they get here or previously and to make sure they are from Mexico or South/Central America. If they are not then they clearly need a more extensive background check. I think a prerequisite should also be at least some english so they can have a decent chance of succeeding here.
Of course getting citizenship would require that they show that they have assimilated and are contributing members of society.
Presto, problem solved. Now where is my beer?
personally, I think you ought to have to walk across the Sonoran Desert and swim the Rio Grande before you’re allowed to be sworn in as a Senator.
They can assimilate, so long as there are still places I can go to and buy dulce de leche and bacalhao.
oooh. So long as we’re going to use the government to enforce contracts like this, lets bring back peonage laws too.
And peruvian chicken. Can’t beat that stuff.
Bullshit, Jeff. Absolute, steaming, reeking bullshit.
Simple plan – anyone of the “undocumented-American” class who wants to get legal needs to either A) Voluntarily return to their country of origin wherein they can join in the line and wait their turn like all of their countrymen who are trying to follow the law; or B) When caught, they are put on the first flight/bus/tramp-steamer back to their country of origin, wherein they are barred PERMANENTLY from entry (even for visitation) into the United States for the remainder of their lives.
When we are discussing “undocumented immigrants,” we are discussing criminals.
Criminals should NEVER be allowed to benefit from the proceeds of their crimes. Ever.
To even consider allowing those who are currently in-country to “get righteous” with a pittance fine and a makee-learnee English class is tantamount to erasing the borders.
The Republicans in my state are PAST the primaries. You are stuck with them or the Dems, unless a third party candidate comes up.
That’s not a good thing. My local congress-critter just torqued my jaws with his vote on campaign finance censorship, I mean reform, so lets let these Texas Republicans work for the vote this time.
If they don’t watch out, they’re going to miss the last stage for Washington in November.
That sort of bar has been proven to work quite well.
No, actus, that bar has never even been raised. Too racist, you see. Can’t have that.
Perhaps we need a revival of Ellis and Angel Islands as central influx (and denial of entry) points for immigrants.
Indeed. As a citizen, living in Texas, I pay $31K per year to send my son to the University of Illinois. If I were an illegal, I just learned I could pay $15K less. Sweet.
Whats stopping you?
In my update, I bring up the problem of children.
I don’t want anyone benefitting from a crime. But that’s the compromise I see if you want to get the borders shored up. Trying to round up and deport every illegal is just not going to happen.
Face it: many politicians on both sides have reasons for keeping the southern border porous. I want to see it shored up. It ain’t closing the barn door after the horses have gotten out if there are millions more horses left in the barn.
Shut the door. Cut your losses. Make the citizenship earned.
As for all the “perks” of being an illegal (such as reduced tuition), state voters are going to have to end that nonsense. I’d be all for taking away any perk of being an illegal. In fact, I have been for that.
That’s just where I am now, though as I say in my post, I completely sympathize with the view that law breakers should be held accountable. Here, I just don’t think it feasible until we reach a compromise.
Don’t think we haven’t tried in California with Proposition 187 – now being pigeonholed in the 9th Circus (not ruled upon as yet so no appear is possible, but that doesn’t matter because CA’s current AG is a SFO Donk). Janet Napolitano in AZ is doing every cartwheel and backflip she can think of in order to prevent the full carrying out of Proposition 200.
As to The Chillldrennn(TM), I know I’m going to sound horrible, but my take on it is too effing bad, that crap’s gotta stop mucho hasto. Children are removed from the care of custodial parents when their parents commit crimes all the time. If Mamacita is an “undocumented immigrant” who just fortuitously happens to cross the border in her 38th week of pregnancy and then gives birth in El Centro or LAX? In that case, Mamacita is by definition a criminal – kid stays, Mamacita goes, discussion closed. Mamacita, of course, would be encouraged to go through the normal channels and at that time she might get an opportunity to reunite with her former “anchor baby.”
Breaking the law must have consequences.
I think I have reached my limit. There is no point in voting since in our two party system, the Dems want pre-legal aliens in the country so they will have more voters beholden to them, and the Repubs want cheap pool boys and gardeners. Twerps like Bill Kristol live in gated communities and are isolated from the reality of barrios in Northern Virginia (just to name one place far far from the border) so a few more illegals is no problem for them.
If I (a US citizen) played games with a false social security number to evade taxes, I would go to jail. If I employed a US citizen that I knew was falsifying his social security number, I would go to jail. Why is it suddenly ok for both these things to happen if one is an illegal from Mexico?
The US Congress–screwing the people again. If we accept this “amnesty” masquerading as a guest worker program, then we are as stupid as they think we are!
Build the wall, deport anyone who violates any US or State law, cut off the benefits, use RICO against the employers who hire illegals, keep these enforcement measures up for more than a year, don’t grant citizenship to the US born children of illegals, and then maybe we can start to think about reopening an immigration path (with an English literacy requirement, sponsor, job certification, and citizenship that requires you to relinquish your citizenship anywhere else).
A Protein Wisdom Comment Fiction
A single lamp burned on the desk, arcing a drab glow against the back wall. Suddenly, a long shadow split the institutional off-white plaster, rose up the wall and split like the letter ‘c’. Just as suddenly, the letter’s twin legs began flapping, like, like a dog’s jaw. And there, suddenly a pair of ears rose. The world’s-fucking-mostest-stupidest commenter, actus, giggled with unrestrained glee at this vaudeville genius.
Truly only he could make shadow puppets of such amazing character. Look! He made them dance, and barked, imagining some ghostly, ethereal wingnuts somewhere in his Cyberian G.U.L.A.G. where leftist, feminist-activist, Bulgarian Womyn’s Track and Field Legion guarded them in the great noncommerical, pristine Paradisio*.
He sighed, sadly. He must invest in a webcam, just to make Them SEE the error of their ways, and the brilliance of his own. Oh, the God-bothering, motherless, cow-tipping, cousin-marrying, shotgun-swanging redstate morons, how they conspired against him.
But he knew. Genius was such a lonely gift, when only one could see it.
*Without borders…of course.
Cripes, a Perot-ista is pining for the Clinton Administration.
That sounds rather expensive.
Tell you what, actus. Go down to the hospital (the one nearest you will do) and ask to see what it’s costing now.
Regards,
Ric
Expensive, indeed. It sounds especially expensive to Mamacita, and the point of that expense is to (theoretically) ensure that she not take that chance.
Alas, we currently have a situation in this nation, especially in the southern border states, where instead of making such a proposition expensive for expectant mothers, we practically have “you stay, gringos pay” signs posted in the middle of the Rio Grande.
There is going to be expense no matter what we do, unless of course we do nothing, which I suspect is what a whole bunch of people South of the Border would really prefer we do. The cruel irony is that if we do nothing, then the expense will make what we are fixing to spend now look like my 6-year-old’s allowance.
It is my preference that the expense be laid on enforcement of law and of border integrity. What’s your preference, actus?
Stealing children sounds like the way to go then. I’d just rather both stayed, and the mom cared for the kid, rather than the state.
The illegal immigration question isn’t difficult for me: I’ve been following it closely for three years and based on that I strongly urge everyone to support simply enforcing our laws, avoiding any kind of amnesty no matter what it’s called, and backing away from this extraordinarily dangerous situation slowly but surely.
Few other countries would allow large number of foreign citizens to march in their streets demanding rights to which they aren’t entitled, yet that’s exactly what’s happened recently.
We have every right in the world to deport those illegal aliens as long as we did it lawfully.
Yet, we’re unable to do that for fear of what might happen.
What if we refuse? What if we tried to deport even a small number of those illegal aliens? What would they do?
And, what is that situation and the condition of giving in to such demands usually called?
Getting people to work.
It’s not like the immigration issue is a new one. From the very begining there have been people coming into this country, and “real” Americans trying to keep them out. It’s an old debate, and in the end immigration is curtailed. The thing is, I don’t think there are many people who look back at the history saying “I’m sure glad we kept them Irish out” or “I’t a good thing we limited the number of Asians.” The only people in this country who really have reason to regret having too lose an immigration policy are the Native Americans, but at least they got some casinos out of the deal.
I woke up this morning and had a breakfast burrito from a street vendor. I had a calzone for lunch, sushi for dinner and I’m drinking an Irish wiskey as I type. If not for immigration we would eating like the English, and I can’t take that much boiled food.
The best damn thing about tgis country is that we can take anyone the world wants to throw at us, and make them Americans. Got a boatload of Itallians who don’t speak English? Got some Irish criminals? Got refugees from Viet Nam? We’ll take ‘em. Toss ‘em into the mix, and in two generations they’ll be buying CDs, driving fast cars and complaining about all those damn forginers like the rest of us.
I have a feeling that fear of the Mexicans destroying our country will seem as foolish as fear of the Poles, Irish, Itallians (and all the rest) seem today. That being said, I think both sides have to acknowledge that this is a case where nobody is going to get what they want. Like the drug war, it’s a losing battle for the isolationists. For us small “l” libertarians, we’re going to have to accept some losses.
actus: “Stealing children sounds like the way to go then. I’d just rather both stayed, and the mom cared for the kid, rather than the state.”
That is the status quo. Are you going to pay an extra set of taxes for that? Do you wonder why schools are getting upwards of $8K to $10K per student but getting failing returns? Or why hospitals charge $50 for a dose of 325 milligrams of orally-dosed acetaminophen (IOW one pill of Tylenol)? It’s precisely because of your position stated here – preference that the “mom cared for the kid”. News flash for you, actus – the mom may be caring for the kid, but she’s doing so on the taxpayer’s dime.
Nice duck. Hope you don’t get shot by Dick Cheney.
G.Bob – Reference one of my earlier posts calling for a reopening of Ellis and Angel Islands. I want all the immigration possible – as long as it is legal!
What I am objecting strenuously to is that there’s a whole bunch of people who feel they are entitled to cut in line in front of thousands of others who are doing it the right way. All I’m saying is those who cut in line deserve to go to the back of the line, and should not be presented with a green card, express citizenship and a nice, shiny Medi-Cal card courtesy of los gringos stupidos.
G.Bob- I think the topic is actually illegal immigration. But your story about the Calzone was nice.
Or do you propose that we run the US as a place where anyone can come, any time, for however long? Do you support any immigration laws?
Ok, the shortest way to that would be to create jobs for them in Mexico, where they live. How would you like to proceed?
Imigration is only as legal as we choose to make it. In the 1930’s fears of forginers (too many pesky Jews, Itallians and Poles taking over our jobs and not speaking our language) led to serious reductions in the number of immigrants allowed in our country. No longer could you get on a boat, be processed at Ellis and enter the country. You don’t think that Mexicans would rather get in here legally than being crammed into a truck or nearly dying to cross the desert if they could?
The ideal compromise for us on the pro-immigrant side would be to expand the number of legal immigrants while cracking down down on illegal immigration. The problem is that you can’t just erect a wall and say that everything is good. If we could let in four or five times the number of legal immigrants each year, and make the process less painfull, we could have greater control of the borders and ease assimilation by adding language requirments for citizenship.
Right now, as it stands, there is no legal immigration for those tired, poor, huddled masses yearning to be free we used to accept all the time. Instead you better have a job waiting, a college degree and the ability to jump through incredible legal hoops for seven years with no promise of citizenship in the end. Unless you landed with the Mayflower, does anyone here think their ancestors would have been able to get in with current imigration laws? I would be happy to vote for building a giant wall between us and Mexico if the other side would be willing to build a couple new Ellis Islands on the border and allow in as many immigrants as we did at the turn of the century.
Well Bob, there seems to be about (different estimates abound) 12 million slots for legal,/i> immigration being taken up by those that are here illegaly.
I don’t think we should base our immigration policy on how many desire to emigrate to this country. The history you cite is exactly that – <i>history. That was then – this is now. The reasons we have all of the “hoops” to jump through have to do with both economics and national security. The reason we require a job waiting, a sponsor who will be financially responsible and the requiring documentation is because of the strain on social services such as medicare, welfare, etc. that those without resources put on that system.
Those social safety nets didn’t exist in the ‘30’s, people took care of themselves or the “communities” helped.
It is hard to quantify the amount of public monies spent each year for humanitarian reasons for those that enter the country illegaly.
Jeff,
I had a patient earlier this weekwho is an ER nurse at South Bend.I’ve had to listen to her spout Daily Kos and myDD nosense for years.She was complaining of the illegal immigrants “Who jnow hot to game the system.They have no ID,they leave a fake address and they use us as a walk in clinic.” I just smiled
Why can’t they pay taxes?
Make her a taxpayer then. She probably is already paying rent, which is linked to property taxes, which funds schools. I have no idea what taxes are paid that drive up the prices of prescription drugs, but there are ways to help those go down.
I cant believe that there are some people that feel entitled to be where they are just because of where they were born. Shocking.
I have no idea if that is the shortest way. Also, some of them live here. Millions. I’d rather their jobs be here, where we can organize them and raise their standard of living. It don’t help us much if somoene that competes with us here for 4 dollars an hour goes to mexico and competes for 1 dollar an hour. But it does help if they organize and get bennies and 16 an hour.
Some laws are just meant to be broken eh actus? Must be nice to be one of the betters who gets to decide which ones should be followed.
Yes comrades, while you are busy breaking the non-law, make sure you pick freely from the great tree of money that only socialism can provide.
How about this? Repeal the minimum wage. Repeal all welfare except support for the aged and the truly infirm (no carple tunnel bullshit). The illegals, if they stayed, would be eaten alive.
After a few years of hell, I believe there would be a marked improvement in this country. The basis of strong families is the fear of starvation and homelessness.
Sincerely, Montgomery Burns
How about building a wall? Perhaps providing Mexico with an outlet that allows it to ignore improving conditions at home is not in the best interests of anyone.
Hmmm.
@ G. Bob.
1+ million people legally immigrate into America each and every year.
And Beatings! They will continue until morale improves.
Hmmmm.
Words simply fail.
You’re not fooling anyone, you know.
I like TigerHawk’s idea for taxing xfers to Mexico. Shit, why don’t we just take all of it? It’s our damn money!!
And you know, I can’t stand trying to pronounce all them damn Mexican names. I say we give new, ‘Merican names. You know, like Toby, and Mammy and Pollo George. Hell, I can pronounce that.
http://www.reason.com/0602/fe.jd.americas.shtml
http://www.reason.com/hod/bd040706.shtml
We should quit allowing Mexico to export the problems of its corrupt failed society to the United States.
That means no more illegal immigration allowed. Period. And if the Mexicans don’t like it, they should go back to their country and reform it.
Jeff, is there no piece of conservative shit that you won’t gobble up? Jill Carroll is an American hero; why are you so eager to smear her?
I guess nobody hear noticed, but the President just claimed the right to out an American agent because he thought it would save his job. Look over there! Jill Carroll reports facts! She must hate America.
By golly, you’re right, Jim. Nobody hear [sic] noticed where Bush said he has the right to out American agents (Customs? Travel? Booking? Talent?) because he thinks it will save his job. In fact, I didn’t even know his job was in jeopardy, aside from the term limits thing.
Got a quote, there, Jim? Maybe a link?
First of all, Jim, you’ve posted this in the wrong thread. Second of all, if you wouldn’t mind stepping down from your soapbox for a second, I’d ask you—like I asked Don Surber before you—to point out this “smear” of the American Hero Jill Carroll. Third, what “facts” are you referring to that Jill Carroll has reported that would lead me to say she hates America?
And finally, check out the comments to the last Libby link and you’ll see I already pointed to Tom Maguire’s evisceration of this latest piece of media obfuscation re: the President’s ability to declassify information. Not only that, but your premise begs the question: was someone charged with “outing” Valerie Plame? Why no. After such an in-depth investigation, you’d think that had Ms Plame been an outed covert agent, somebody might have been charged with that offense.
Instead, on deep background, administration spokesman were given permission to tell reporters prepared to post Joe Wilson’s litany of self-serving lies, that he had a conflict of interest.
Tell me, Jim: is there no piece of DNC-scripted shit that you won’t gobble up in your haste to accuse everyone else of not thinking as deeply and clearly as you?
Its not illegal if the president does it.
i sent the following to all the leading republican senators and major columnists on april 2nd. while it is not what i would personally want i think it is the only solution possible given the constraints of modern american society.
if i was king for a day…….
dear senator,
i commend you for taking the immigration issue head on. however, i must say, i think politicians complicate the issue by trying to cover too many constituent agendas. sometimes simplicity is actually the real solution. occam’s razor. in fact, the “rant†below that i left on a web site on march 17th is, i believe, the only remedy to a perplexing problem. in fact, if you analyze every provision of the house and senate bills they have no chance of enforcement without tearing this country apart. actually, they have no chance, whatever the penalties. the 1986 bill, senator reid’s 1993 bill to Barbara Jordan’s immigration report in 1995 should be our lessons. please remember that at the time this was written it was directed at other comment posters, not you sir. it follows below:
â€â€Ã¢â‚¬â€œ go after the companies that employ the illegals? send the illegals back? penalize the ones that stay?
we are all dreaming. i have lived in california for 30 years. thousands, and i mean thousands, of small businesses hire and use millions of illegals everyday. trust me, short of a new black booted gestapo they are staying employed. any law passed to enforce some sort of penalty will probably never make it out of the court system. think prop 187 etc. so stop pulling your own chain thinking some legislation out of washington is going to change anything on the ground.
send them back? assuming we could get the authority to do it (this too will sit in the courts until we are the new, new mexico) the police, national guard or military etc will not do it short of becoming some new SS. even the criminals that we should be deporting will just walk back in, led by their favorite coyote for $3,000, unless we have a fence from san diego to brownsville.
10-15 million well organized people-and they are very organized, are staying. so get over it. part of the solution is to stop adding to the size of the group. we have to build a fence before we contemplate any other measures. don’t listen to anyone who says fences do not work. they have other agendas they are not willing to discuss. ie vincente fox, among others, is against the fence.
15 million illegals are easy to assimilate over twenty years–and guess what, despite the headlines, they want to be assimilated. but it can only work if no more are added to the mix. the folks that think the 15 million illegals are going anywhere are simply delusional. we let them in and now they are here for good. there are no laws, past , current or in the future that are going to change that. no doubt, there will be folks who get on soapboxes and pretend to write new legislation to solve the problem. the sooner we all act like adults and realists the sooner this divisive issue can be put behind us. do any of you actually think that the illegals are going to be rounded up and sent back to mexico etc? do you think funding is going to be cut to cities who harbor them? you have to be kidding. the bong smoke is clouding your vision.
the absolute best that we can accomplish within current law is to build a fence so the problem doesn’t get any bigger. a fence is cheaper and more efficient than salaried border patrols in the long run. this fence may work.
http://www.weneedafence.com/images/Fence_Idea.jpg
after that, then we can deport the bad guys during a 10-year green card period on the way to their citizenship. that’s right, their citizenship. 15 million people are not going to continue to live here as second class illegals forever without bringing the whole country down. why? because as certain as the sun comes up in the morning, 15 million will be 30 million in 25 years without a fence. we need to get our arms around these kinds of numbers. when barbara jordon put her immigration committee together in 1990 there were two million illegals. we need to seal the border and make them citizens just like the irish, italians, germans, jews etc who came before them. the fact that they got here illegally is irrelevant. they are here, get over it. they are not going to sign up for any two step convoluted green card, maybe you will- maybe you won’t, get at the end of the line samba dance. we are not going to collect any back taxes based on real/imaginary cash transactions from folks who have barely two nickels to rub together. it will cost more to collect it. the hatred and resentment it will engender will be long lasting –not to mention the crime and violence. we might be able to get a very small citizenship fee. that will pay for the fence.
i’ll make a prediction. if a secure fence is not erected at this time we will have this cicrle jerk again in twenty years and the number then will be 30 million along with their 25 million children who will be citizens. then the problem will be this
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/4786/105/1600/Aztlan.jpg
not because of some dark conspiracy but because of differing birthrates. we need to start seeing the world as it is, not as we hope it would be.
riddle me this……… you folks who hide behind the thin veneer of “but its illegalâ€Â…..
who broke the bigger law? the folks who risked life and limb to get here or the politicians/bureaucrats who failed to enforce the state and federal laws to protect and seal the borders? conference after conference, committee after committee since the 70’s recommended closing the border with a fence. it was left open. we need to get past this “illegal†designation. they are here and they are staying. no amount of convoluted gestapo, stalinist, nativist jib jab from the left or the right is going to change that. remember, 15 million are really over 40 million when you throw in their supporters and the larger hispanic community in general. start getting serious. the idea that the newly unemployed “illegals†you would create, with these new ridiculous remedies, are going to go home in numbers is absurd. the part we are not getting is this– it’s their country now. millions of them already have their own small businesses, families, homes etc.
crack down on the people that hire them? again we are just not getting it. we are cutting our nose off to spite our face.
just remember this at all times–if you were them–young, poor and starving for a life– you would have crossed the border if it was left open. we caused this problem. we left the border wide open with a huge 2000-mile long honey-pot on the other side. i’m honest enough to admit it, i would have pushed you out of the way as i scrambled across!
here’s the real pathetic realityâ€â€virtually every congressman/woman and the president are against sealing the border. they are more worried about our image with the world, mexico and imaginary votes they may or may not get. they fudge the debate with economic/impact studies that look good but mean nothing. it is all props. read the fine print in the bills being considered.
so, you still think we are going to start solving the illegal immigrant problem inside the US while we can’t rally the consensus to close the border where the illegals enter? put down the bong, you’ve had one hit too many.
and finally to the race baiters……
the “fence†sole purpose for existence is to secure the border from illegal immigration from primarily latin america. the fact that latin america is hispanic is strictly a coincidence. if canada was a third world country i would propose the same fence. for two hundred years we controlled immigration with quotas per immigrant group. i believe jimmy carter was the moron who changed this. the chief reason for quotas was for assimilation purposes–language, culture etc…. mexico encourages illegal immigration as an outlet so as to avoid the hard choices that it should be making to rectify a pathetic economic model it inherited from the spanish. there is a reason that english speaking colonies/nations have done better than spanish or french. every time you seduce a young hispanic to flee his country you further enslave the tens of millions they leave behind.
we have to frame this discussion within the bounds of what we can do, not what you would like to do. modern america is a very complicated legal system etc…. using existing ‘green card’ laws that have already been vetted combined with our existing right to build the fence, will put an immediate end to most of the problem. the fact that it may aid and abet the war on terror is a bonus. after that we can go through the psychic trauma and emotional healing of all the why’s, wherefore’s and finger pointing that always comes when we recognize WE PERSONALLY CREATED THIS PROBLEM  the “illegals†are only the symptom!!!!!!!
enjoy your salad tonight.