…Except, of course, when they are not. Darleen has the details.
Now. Over to you, Piny, Jill, et al.
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Recent Comments
- In The Mailbox: 02.28.23 (Afternoon Edition) : The Other McCain on Hey, longtime pw readers…
- In The Mailbox: 12.23.22 : The Other McCain on Patrick J. Carroll truly IS a sad, embittered psychopath
- Danger on Patrick J. Carroll might be a psychopath
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- In The Mailbox: 07.18.22 : The Other McCain on Patrick J. Carroll might be a psychopath
I’m sure they’ll be over to comment pretty soon. Right now they’re over at Tawana Brawley’s house for supper.
You know, those white men may have been degrading to that poor, poor girl for the simple fact that she was a black stripper. Isn’t that just as bad as rape? They may have well just tied her up to the nearest lightpost and set her on fire, the damage to her would have been just as bad. If she was degraded in such a way, doesn’t she have the right to charge rape?
Because that team is obviously racist. I mean, they only have one black teammate.
The whole lynching thing needs to be retired. Statistically, it doesn’t hold up. Black on black and white on white crimes dominate. Cross-racial crimes are minimal. The problem isn’t race, it’s societal mores.
I did a post on this myself.
Help! I just realize vanity is a mortal sin and I just did a vanity comment! Where’s the delete key? Here it is. It says S-u-b-m-i-
If the rubber don’t fit, you must acquit.
’kay, like you know the way those fascist white male jocks always get other students to do like their homework and term papers and stuff, well, I bet they had, like some guy come in and ejaculate for them and everything…
A DNA test conducted by the Patriarchy?! We’re to believe Them?
I don’t think so.
its a tough job but……
I thought something sounded suspicious with the whole brouhaha. Just one deranged woman’s attempt to extort what she can.
It enrages me that someone can get away with such a racist and classist accusation. It’s untenable. And to think the lying woman had more popular support than the innocent jocks.
Any time a person opens his/her mouth with an accusation of racism, I begin doubting that person’s integrity unless proof of racism can be brought forth. It’s so overused. It sickens me.
I’m glad the race-baiters got put to bed with this one.
Still, at least one of these Duke players is still guilty of being a creep.
It probably wasn’t the best joke to crack at any time, let alone when you’re being accussed of rape.
As much as I want the story to be a hoax, I think we need to wait before pronouncing the accused innocent. A negative DNA test does not fully exonerate, but it certainly should make Nifong (the DA) sweat.
And Jeff, thanks for directing me that that mental circle-jerk by Piny…that wasted 30 minutes of my day.
Ah, falsely accused of rape.
I give him a pass for being upset. I mean he had been FALSELY accused of rape after all. Dumb ass move, but I don’t see any reason why he should not be immediately let back in to school. Freedom of speech and all.
Look at the bright side. Jill won’t be as splenetic this time…
I went over to Feministe. Not only are they certain the men are guily, they’re certain that all men are guilty. Even if the men didn’t do it, they’re still guilty. But of course, they are guilty, so all men are guilty.
Oh, and we lynch people. All the live-long day.
Racist and rapist are almost exactly the same because c and p are both worth 3 points unless you get a triple letter score and then all bets are off.
But this story fit oh so perfectly into the feminist-a framework of reality, how could they help but rush to judgement. But of course if they weren’t jocks, but defenders of liberal causes they would have been defended by the left at all costs. Not to say these particular knuckleheads aren’t guilty of something besides bad judgement.
TW: You can’t fault the feminist-as, they are products of their indoctrination.
Oh. One more reminder. “Follow the money.” Rich kids prime for extortion. Unfortunately for those with the ropes, the kids’ parents have the money for the best defense possible.
Well, one would think that if DNA proved a rape, that the lack of same would exhonerate, no?
[crickets chirping]
Yeah, that’s what I figured.
Uh. No.
Smoking guns can prove a crime. Lack of a smoking gun means other proof is needed.
actus
you do realize that a sex kit gathers more than just the presence (or lack) of semen?
I mean, with your extensive lawyering and all?
There was NO DNA at all on the woman. Not just semen.
These young males may, indeed, be indecent creeps and Duke justified in suspending them. But if the DDA in this instance tries to proceed to trial, he’s a damned fool.
Jay sez:
Who needs evidence when everyone knows that men are dirty, raping, child molesting, deadbeat, abusive, uterus coveting scum?
Thanks for reading them so I don’t have to.
And no latex, no lubricant, no evidence whatsoever that she’d recently had sex.
So, maybe they stiffed her, and she decided to show them rich little crackers what for…
Really.
Then maybe you need to have a talk with all the judges and such who’ve been releasing convicted killers from death row because DNA tests supposedly exonerated them.
Set ‘em straight, y’know.
Sure. But the dude was talking about DNA.
But wait, is this about DNA matches, or the presence of DNA (any DNA)?
Didn’t the order for the DNA samples mention physical evidence of anal and vaginal sexual assault?
There, DNA from the perp was shown not to match the DNA of the person in jail. Here, no DNA from the suspects was found on the victim. Actually no DNA from any man was found on the victim. There could be other evidence that links the suspects to the victim, or that is evidence of a crime.
As a Wake Forest fan, let me point out the two important points here:
1. Whether guilty or not, the Duke lacrosse players are guilty. In a post-modern sense.
1a. Or maybe a deconstructionist sense.
2. They’re all illegal aliens anyway. I mean, Baptists? Lacrosse? Do I have to draw you a picture?
As a Maryland fan, I agree with KM.
Spamword, “seen,” as in “Y’all seen those Maryland gals embarrass them Dookies?”
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
actus
as Pablo said, there was no evidence of condom usage..no spermicide, no DNA from stray hairs or shed skin.
I’ve read enough sex kit notations that the wording is “physical indications consistent with vaginal/anal intercourse” usually with disclaimers of time placement (could be “recent” or “scar tissue” but no definitive time)
Unless there is real extreme physical damage, examination is just going to say something took place sometime within X number of days.
Without DNA evidence, this is pretty much exoneration. The woman charged that THREE of the players physcially dragged her into a room and raped and sodomized her. No ONE of them left behind any physical evidence?
Occam’s Razor, actus.
Actus, do you just reflexively take the other side? This isn’t even political.
This sort of reminds me of the Monica Lewinsky affair in reverse…Actus of course, performing the Sidney Blumenthal “Monica is a deranged stalker” role most excellent!
no DNA from stray hairs or shed skin.
And in her fingernails.
Isn’t that redundant on like half a dozen levels?
I think charges should be pressed against the woman for defamation, false accusation, extortion, slander, libel, whatever. This is unacceptable. It seems to be quite clear – what from has been said here and in news reports – that there is no evidence whatsoever that the team in question assaulted or otherwise violated the woman.
I’m sure this makes the campus feminazis very happy and proud. And shows their demonstration was a waste of time, energy, and calories.
Sounds like somebody doesn’t know that all white people are inherently RACIST!!!
You’re not a RACIST!!! yourself, are you?
TW: Don’t even get me started on Cynthia McKinney’s hair.
If you want to see where femenism takes a beating in America, just listen in when 3 dudes watch one dude come up short on a 3-foot putt.
“Does your husband play golf?”
“Fix your skirt.”
“Did your putter get tangled in your tampon string?”
“What? Did you spend the night with the Duke Lacrosse team?”
Until these overtly sexist remarks are made violations of the Rules of Golf, women will not have a seat at the table of equality.
So what do you say to a lesbian when her putt is short?
From a standard rundown of the subject:
Man, those ellipses are just asking for it.
From Piny:
This pseudonymous entity clearly knows from whence it speaks. I can’t wait to hear this paragon of fully examined self-knowledge’s reappraisal of the situation in light of these latest revelations.
Can’t wait.
Hilarious.
Amanda grudgingly acknowledges it at Pandagon.
The comments do not disappoint if you want a good laugh.
Rapists are guilty even when proven innocent!
If you stiff a prostitute, is it still considered rape?
It isn’t that she was asking for “it”.
She was asking to be paid for “it”.
Oh, and Actus, I’d consider suing your law school:
Cheshire said the report indicated authorities took DNA samples from all over the alleged victim’s body, including under her fingernails, and from her possessions, such as her cell phone and her clothes
They are hitting balls with clubs, lesbians never leave on short.
“Better rethink that LPGA slot you have next weekend”?
Ys gotta put yer balls in it, sister!
So what do you say to a lesbian when her putt is short?
“I wouldn’t have expected you to be afraid of the hole Madge.”
Which is evidence of sex. Its not definitive, but it is probitive.
Right. Otherwise Its just he said she said.
This is the quote from the lawyer: “No DNA material from any young man was present on the body of this complaining woman,” defense attorney Wade Smith said.
That means no DNA was found on her. Not that some was found and it didn’t match.
Amanda’s freakin’ hilarious:
Similarly, I expect that my own white male privilege alongside the fact that I wasn’t born until 1957 will clear me in the Lindbergh kidnapping.
actus, IMHO it’s possible to interpret the defense’s statement (“No DNA material from any young man was present”) as “No DNA material from any of the young men in question,” since as far as I know, it’s not possible to determine age via DNA analysis – sex, yes, but not age. So it sounds to me as if the defense att’y just employed some verbal shorthand.
More troublesome is an earlier statement you made, to the effect that if you don’t find a smoking gun, you have to look for another kind of evidence. This statement sounds like a witchhunt – but I do acknowledge that you may be speaking from the POV of the DA, who, having initially determined that the woman’s story was worthy of prosecution, has been dealt a serious blow here, but is still going on with the prosecution. (Last I heard, anyway.)
*I think charges should be pressed against the woman for defamation, false accusation, extortion, slander, libel, whatever.*
Don’t think this can’t happen. The woman is a VERY precarious position. I can’t imagine there’s not one moneyed father among these kids that wants to go after her and has the lawyers to back her up. IF there is no physical evidence to back up her claims, she now has 10-15 witnesses who will testify against her in the civil trial and she’ll have nothing to counter it. Secure a judgment, exonerating the kid in civil court and don’t worry about collecting against the stripper.
The real tragedy is, this kind of thing does go on and false accusations make everybody a little less likely to hear the person not crying wolf.
Also, I think eventually, the story that is gonna shake out is the duke kids stiffed her monetarily somehow and she decided to get them back, figuring race would be her shield.
Actus has it nailed. They were white males, she was a black female. That alone is compelling evidence of rape. The lack of physical evidence may weaken the case, but it does not erase the obvious. Unless the team can prove they are not white males or the poor victim is not a black female, they are going down! At a minimum, using the Al Sharpton rule, this should give someone’s political career a jump-start.
I’m with Big E. I just hope they let the kid they kicked out of school back in, and remove this incident from his record. Who knows what the ‘right way’ to handle such a false accusation would be– I imagine myself acting with dark sarcasm as well.
There had to be dna collected from her that is not her own. Otherwise, there would be nothing to test the lacross players dna against. I have to say one has to be nuts to go into a house and take off your clothes for a bunch of drunk strangers. At least in a club there are people protecting them.
Please correct me if I’m wrong, but it is my understanding that no DNA was found anywhere on the young lady. There was also no traces of latex, no physical signs of rape and no witnesses to the alleged rape.
Sounds to this layman like the preponderance of what evidence (or lack thereof) exists supports the Dukies side of the he said/she said.
Wonder which department of the University the Duke boys apply to to get their reputations back.
You know that guy they kicked out of school? If he had just transferred to Bennington, expanded that email into a novel, had it made into a movie starring Christian Bale…well, he’d have enough money to pay his legal bills.
That’s what I’m saying. Lack of a smoking gun doesn’t mean no crime was committed. It means other proof will be required to show a crime.
Now, if other proof doesn’t exist as well, then you can’t prove a crime.
But its not a case that DNA=guilt, no DNA = no guilt.
Then why was the DNA ordered collected from the guys? and boy that was a quick turnaround on their test.
Right, that’s what the lacrosse players will want. To be subjected to cross about their party with underage drinking and strippers so they can embarass a judgment-proof defendant. Sure.
Mike
You’re right, with a few exceptions St. Amanda’s commenters are both downplaying the significance of DNA (and lack thereof) and spinning this to a “of course the players won’t be charged..they are rich white boys and she’s a black stripper – QED”. Amanda even states she still thinks its a great illustration of gangrape and that gangrapists usually use condoms and gets a gratuitous swipe in
These young males were stupid on SO many levels, and the creep factor by the emailer is way over the top. However, rape is such a serious, heinous charge, I hesistate to engage in kneejerk j’accuse against anyone without evidence. And that would include leaping to the conclusion that this woman is lying. She may actually believe she was assaulted, but considering that when the first police call came in she was falling down drunk (the call log listed it as assistance to a person under the influence for more than an hour until it was changed to reflect a rape report –and there are reports that there are time-stamped photos showing her in such a condition prior to the alledged rape including scraped legs and arms from her falling) she may be misremembering how she got her injuries. People’s recollections are not always accurate and add in things like drugs or alcohol and it IS necessary to have circumstantial evidence to corroborate testimony.
Hye, guys, I’ve got it! If there’s no evidence of the crime they’re accused of, maybe we can charge them with lying to the investigators!
Has that been tried before?
actus
The woman claimed rape. She had physical signs of being beaten to corroborate her statements of how the rape occured. Some of her false fingernails were found on the bathroom floor where she said the rape occured.
At that point, the DA and the police would have been criminally negligent NOT to process the scene fully AS a rape crime … sex kit, DNA collection, etc.
And considering the high profile of the case, I’m sure the DA had the lab bump the testing up the priority scale.
My office has a high-profile police shooting—the investigative report on the shooting came in in about half the usual time because of the circumstances (and the officer has been charged with attempt murder).
I’m trying to take a wait and see attitude about this. When the charge broke originally, I was fairly sure there had been a rape. Absent DNA evidence or evidence of use of contraceptives, makes me wonder if my intitial assesment was wrong.
Earlier people said there was no evidence. Now it seems there was some. That is all.
actus
with the DNA eliminated and the sex kit processed that NO recent sex had taken place..there is now NO evidence of rape.
She has physical injuries, but it may be that they were the result of her own drunkeness.
can you stop trying to be deliberately obtuse here?
Her statement is evidence of rape. I presume that still exists.
And semen may be the result of consensual sex.
I think you’re mixing up the idea that when people say something is ‘evidence of rape’ it means it conclusively determines that there is rape. Thats not what ‘evidence’ means. Dictionary.com says its something ‘helpful in forming a judgement.’ In law, we call it ‘probative.’ There may be other explanations for the evidence, but its still evidence.
The Feminazis are predictably ticked by this story.
On the other hand…
No comment yet from the Feministas concerning the admission of a spokesman from the mysogynist, oppressive, child-raping, woman-killing, anti-Semitic, Nazi-like Taliban with heradled fanfare at Yale…
It was considered a victory for “diversity,” however – a favorite cause de celeb of the lefties.
Just another glaring leftwingnut double standard for the world to behold.
Well, it is obvious to me who the actual evildoers are; the systemic racism in place by the Skulls, ordered by, you guessed it sport fans, Karl Rove.
And Ahmed Chalabi.
Karl Rove and Ahmed Chalabi, yo.
Actus is a pedophile! My statement is evidence! And I’m a bit peeved that Jeff lets someone post on this blog where there is evidence of them being a pedophile.
I submit your statement as probative evidence of you being a pedantic twit.
Actus,
I’m a Federal Investigator and as far as evidence of Rape, I don’t think so. We have some scrapes, we have some fingernails in a bathroom, and we have a statement from an alleged victim. Now the statement is nice, but without something supporting it, it’s just that, a statement from an alleged victim. I’d look at the statement and try to determine after the Rape Kit was processed if what the alleged victim said matches with what the evidence shows. I’d say at this point no. But I just gather the facts, I don’t make a judgment. I let the courts decide that. Having said that, I would go to my boss and basically say the evidence collected doesn’t support the allegation made.
TW: Reported, you really can’t make this stuff up.
God forbid dictionaries count for anything.
If you go over to the smoking gun and look at the original search warrant they also took from the bathroom things like the bath mat and other objects that could carry DNA. She supposedly had this desperate 30 minute struggle in the bathroom with her three assailants. Kicking, screaming, yelling, spitting, maybe bleeding. Yet HER DNA was not found on anything from the bathroom. DNA from two of the lax players was found on the bath towels – normal as it’s transfered every time drying off after a shower.
I’ve always been fascinated by the eminently American syncretism that brings together Calvinism prudishness and scientific faith…
All that empty talk about “culture wars†and “Bible vs. Darwin†misses the point.
Actus:
God, yes, let’s trust in the good sense and fidelity of a stripper. Because a woman who is a professional liar (kind of like a lawyer) to con stupid guys out of their money–God bless each and every one of those dirty, dirty girls–using, I don’t know, sex, that woman deserves nothing but the benefit of the doubt.
A more credible witness, there isn’t, than a stripper.
If there is physical evidence left to go, the case goes on. If there is no physical evidence, short of the team perjuring themselves, the case folds. Deal with it. Deal with THE PATRIARCHY!
Actus Raped Me!
There. I’ve provided evidence. Prove you didn’t.
Doc,
I think you need to study English a little more because like yesterday you are reading things in that are not there.
DNA material is not just semen. It could be saliva, sweat, blood…
He was being concise not prude!
Oh and by the way, if the alleged victim gave a sworn statement that is proven to be false, she can be charged under USC 18 1001 for false statements and possibly get 5 years. Just saying is all.
TW: Can’t we all just get ALONG
That about sums it up.
It works the other way around. I can remain completely silent, point out nothing about your case, like how well you know me, or what sex I am, and still up to you to remove all reasonable doubt.
But you have offered evidence. Good job!
Mike,
This is being investigated by state police. 18 U.S.C. 1001 covers lying to the feds only.
«
Yes. I know.
BUT, why not say “semen or other bodily fluids†then?
Probably because of some sort of unconscious cultural “sterilization†of the language itself
Actus, you just proved your opponents point. Damn, just like shooting fish in a barrel.
Turing: hard, as in why is Actus so hard-headed?
The damage done to innocent until proven guilty—no one has mentioned that.
Forget the stripper. Forget the lacrosse team.
After the public gets news of an alledged crime:
1. A school administrator (the coach) was forced to resign.
2. Demonstrations against the alledged crime was held on campus.
3. There was a city-wide alert in Durham because threats were made of drive-by shootings into someone’s home (the players).
4. An atheletic team’s season cancelled.
5. Last night, a prayer vigil was held for “healing in the community.”
6. Five committees formed to study “rowdy” student behavior. How long has that been going on? All students spend their spare time in the library studying, no?
And all this before anyone was found, you know, guilty.
I don’t know why I do this, sorta like hitting myself in the face with a hammer, multiple times, but here goes.
Please, please, please do not ever put me in a position where I would have to aceept legal (or any other kind) of advice from acthole. PLEASE!!
It (the accusation) is NOT evidence, it is simply an accusation or allegation. A complaint IS NOT evidence. An accusation IS NOT evidence.
How about a minnow in a teacup with a sawed off shotgun?
Statements given under oath and subject to cross examination during a trial are evidence. It’s up to the jury to decide how much weight to give them if any weight at all. Before that happens, the prosecutor has to have unsworn untested statements from a complaining witness. People are being too hard on actus.
*Right, that’s what the lacrosse players will want. To be subjected to cross about their party with underage drinking and strippers so they can embarass a judgment-proof defendant*
I’m not certain it IS what the players want- I do believe one or two of them have parents who will go after this stripper.
Sorry, actus is right on this one. A sworn affidavit or witness statement by the alleged victim asserting that she was raped is in fact evidence. It may not be very compelling evidence, but it is evidence.
On a side not, Actus is right to the exent that he argues the woman’s statement is evidence. It will be considered together with other evidence- physical evidence, dna evidence, witness testimony evidence, in determining whether to prosecute the alleged crime. My argument is simply that while her statement is considered evidence, it is unlikely to be the basis for an attempted prosecution, primarily b/c none of the other evidence at the scene confirms her story. Lew, I think the distinction Actus us trying to make it is may be evidence, just not the best evidence.
Thus, despite what I’ve read about the tremendous pressure on the DA to charge these kids with something, he’d be crazy to do so, solely on the statement of the alleged victim.
*Lew, I think the distinction Actus us trying to make it is may be evidence, just not the best evidence. *
Hrmm, lemme re-phrase that “Lew I think the distinction Actus is trying to make is it may be evidence, just not the best evidence”.
Me learn engrish good.
DNA Analysis not limited to bodily fluids.
Maybe the bathroom was her Marabar caves.
Josh,
Thanks for that. Forgot to look at who was prosecuting this case.
As far as your comment concerning her statement being evidence. True, but only if it goes to trial and is submitted as such. As it stands right now, it’s just a statement from an alleged victim. I know the DA is still looking at this, but unless and until this goes to trial, it’s just one statement in an investigation.
Do they use grand juries in that state? Might be the best way to handle it if a political hot potato. OTOH, if the witness is lying, confronting her with the facts may cause her to come clean. No point in going after her civilly, being that she is surely judgment proof. She should be charged with filing a false report if that is what happened. Of course, then you will have all the activists claiming it will discourage women from coming forward who have been raped. (There logic, not mine.)
“Epithelials” comes to mind. Or, to eye, given that I’m peering through the mending epithelials of my recently lasered left eye.
I certainly hope not. Assuming nothing more comes out and the prosecutor eventually drops the charges, the party wasn’t exactly exemplary behavior. Litigation isn’t a good forum for revenge, as many divorcing couples discover. What parent would want their son to have to testify about a drunken party with strippers just to embarrass the accuser?
Our Gallic guerillero raises an interesting moral issue here: is a poor black stripper (or “even worse†a lowlife prostitute) essentially guilty in advance because of what she is- as opposed to say being admitted into a level playing field where her testimony would be treated with the same reverence (or skepticism) as that of a Church-going rich WASP kid from Duke?
Wahhâbi Islamic fundamentalists and other (Dixie and Israeli) followers of the Old Testament would probably say the “morally bankrupt†lady is guilty until proven innocent.
It seems to me the whole point of our civilization is to give straying souls like her the chance of a fair trial…
Sure it is. It would be entered at trial. Imagine there’s a trial in this duke rape case. The victim’s statements would be part of that evidence.
As one of those Dixie people, I say don’t be ridiculous. I think just about everybody accepted her at her word. It’s only the new DNA (lack of) evidence that is making people rethink their initial assessment.
Most people would believe any woman who cried rape. Why wouldn’t they? It’s a big charge to make and comes with an inspection of the body that most women wouldn’t choose to have done. Throw in the jock reputation and it looks like a sure bet.
Of course, if you’re just being a troll, never mind.
statements used as evidence to support the filing of criminal charges vs. statements introduced as evidence at trial—I think we have exhausted this issue.
Cute, but first off, strippers are rarely ‘poor’. Alot of those girls make damn good money. But she is blackicious, so what you are essentially arguing is that I, being a member of the hated PATRIARCHY!!!, have already judged her guilty.
Again, cute, or is it guapo? But this quote here negates that:
As there already has been damages done to parties that cannot be proven to be guilty without physical evidence, if it comes down to he said, she said…oh, I already covered this:
Presumption of innocence, doncha ya know.
Physical evidence isn’t required to prove someone guily. Perhaps it should be, but it isn’t. He said/she said can result in a conviction, if she is believed and he is not.
But you have offered evidence. Good job!
DNA results are in. No Actus DNA on me. I still have evidence you raped me. It’s right here. Prove you didn’t.
Indeed. They could perjure themselves. I doubt 15 different witnesses sitting down watching the same movie would give an account that was accurate.
But the point is that far from taking the white male’s side, there is a reflexive phalanx laid down around the ‘poor, black girl’. This could ruin four or five or forty guys’ lives here. The presumption of innocence would need absolutely compelling evidence in that case.
Too many people seem absolutely invested in seeing those ‘white boys’ get convicted, ostensibly for racial and social justice, which is hardly more moral than dismissing her charges because of race or class.
Also Actus you are a racist. This statement, I’ve offered, is evidence of it.
topsecret came to me that night, sobbing.
We must have held each other for hours. I tried to wipe the tears for TS’ eyes, but the deluge soaked through my leisure suit.
I’ve never seen someone so distraught before.
I’m sure actus raped topsecret. TU BASTARDO!*
*lil sumthing for Vic Vega
Fif!