From AFP:
Saudi Arabia is working secretly on a nuclear programme, with help from Pakistani experts, a German magazine reports in its latest edition, citing Western security sources.
The German magazine Cicero says that during the Hajj pilgrimages to Mecca in 2003 through 2005, Pakistani scientists posed as pilgrims to come to Saudi Arabia in aircraft laid on by the oil-rich kingdom.
Between October 2004 and January 2005, some of them took the opportunity to “disappear” from their hotel rooms, sometimes for up to three weeks, it quoted German security expert Udo Ulfkotte as saying.
According to Western security services, the magazine added, Saudi scientists have been working since the mid-1990s in Pakistan, a nuclear power since 1998 thanks to the work of the now-disgraced Pakistani scientist Abdul Qadeer Khan.
Cicero, which will appear on newstands on Thursday, also quoted a US military analyst, John Pike, as saying that Saudi bar codes can be found on half of Pakistan’s nuclear weapons “because it is Saudi Arabia which ultimately co-financed the Pakistani atomic nuclear programme”.
The magazine also said satellite images prove that Saudi Arabia has set up in Al-Sulaiyil, south of Riyadh, a secret underground city and dozens of underground silos for [long-range Ghauri-type missiles].
[My emphases]
H/t Allah, who was first to note the pretext under which the Pakistani scientists were able to meet with the Saudis—and which proves yet again (no bombing during Ramadan!) that we are more concerned with befouling Islam than are some of its ostensible adherents. Yay, multicultural understanding!
But be that as it may. The stakes, it seems, keep getting higher, but pointing out as much?—well, that’s just more wingnut bedwetting. We’re terrified the world will blow up tomorrow. When we’re not trying to frighten Americans into voting for Republicans by ginning up a threat that doesn’t really exist. I’m never sure which it is.
Either way, one thingis for certain: Bush and his pals are probably making trillions off this Saudi program—given his family’s long ties to Saudi Arabia. Cozy, even.
Either that, or he’s following the old Don Corleone aphorism about keeping your friends close, but your enemies closer.
Anyway, I realize this is just a blog, and speaking about these things has no real-world effects, but for the sake of conversation, I’d like to hear your thoughts.
Oh, and just to get it out of the way? “Shorter Jeff Goldstein: ‘I eat paste and the A-rabs, they make me a-scared!’”
“the now-disgraced Pakistani scientist Abdul Qadeer Khan”
Yes, but his legacy apparently lives on.
Help me out here. For four years, every fucking terror alert issued by DHS was dismissed by lefties as a red herring used by Bush to distract us from the bad news du jour. There haven’t been any new alerts since last August, though—since before Katrina, before Shiites and Sunnis started killing each other wholesale in Iraq, before Bush’s approval ratings went in the toilet.
Which means either (a) the lefties are, as usual, brimming with bad-faith bullshit that minimizes the terrorist threat, or (b) Rove is really falling down on the job lately.
I lean towards the second interpretation. Because, hey—after Bush went and planted those WMDs in Iraq and sprung that October surprise before the election where he announced we’d captured Osama, how can you take him seriously anymore when he talks about terrorism?
don’t forget the duct tape.
Who are we to say that the Saudis can’t have nukes?
Soviets, Iranians, Pakistanis, Saudis, they’re all no different than the Chimperor’s evil regime. The US (mis)government has terrified them. They need nukes to feel all warm and fuzzy again. If only noble patriots like the Rosenbergs were still around to help them achieve their admirable goals.
Heh, did someone say paste? mmmm, yum. gotta go.
I was just thinking back to the early 80s, when I was still a little leftist activist and most of my compadres were scared absolutely shitless at the idea of Reagan with nukes, seems like suicidal religious megalomaniacs with nukes would at least make them a little nervous.
Hey Typical, I think you were just channeling Phoenician for a second there.
Or……….
Or, the threat levels could be sent out via email to only those who subscribe. Set it up like the “Do not call” list.
It would be interesting to see how many would like to receive alert emails.
Might as well throw this out there, too.
Although, admittedly, the source isn’t exactly … “welcome at Harvard,” if you know what I mean.
Tough call on who would be scarier with access to nuclear weapons, Iraq or Saudi Arabia. Methinks Israel probably views them as equally dangerous.
And so should we.
(this message brought to you by the secret zionist lobby conspiracy that controls the US and everything else in the world)
What does the pretext have to do with concerns of befoulment?
I say we turn over port operations to the saudis.
Hrm. I really don’t want Saudi Arabia with the bomb. The connections to terrorism run deep and the wahabiism inherent in the royal family makes it a prime candidate for infiltration by extremists.
Is it racism that I’d prefer no additional middle eastern countries acquire the bomb ? Or common sense ?
If true, I wonder how long Isreal knew about this.
In all honesty, because we are a Zionist state, an action plan via ROVE and Mossad has probably already been drawn up. So no, I won’t be forced to do the Chicken Little….
Actus, you got it wrong again. The company in the ports deal was from the UAE, which is a bit of a different animal than Saudi Arabia. At least they are attempting to modernize their society.
And besides, they wouldn’t have run any of the security operations anyway.
I know the difference between hte UAE and saudi. Is it enough difference to make a difference in terms of the port issue?
Actus!!! You of all people!?!? A racist?
I think what actus is trying to say is, is this difference different enought from that difference for the difference to be different in a different way from the way that difference is different from this difference. Or do you mean something different?
I hope you don’t use an electric blanket, Jeff.
I, for one, welcome our new robed masters.
Actus really makes you think.
Yep. Like thinking about what a tool he is.
As far as I can tell, there is both an ethnic and religious difference between the House of Saud and the Iranians. The Iranians are ethnic Persians and religious Shi’ites, and worship Allah.
The House of Saud, on the other hand, are ethnic Arabs, and worship money.
My greatest concerns don’t necessarily involve the Saudi government, though I do find them fairly medieval and repugnant. But they are similar to my concerns about the about the Pakistanis having the bomb—Musharraf is a man with whom we can do business, but the maniacs who might replace him aren’t folks with hom we can reasonably expect to coexist given their peculiar eschatological bent. Ditto for the (many) folks in Saudi Arabia who haven’t yet replaced Allah with Mammon; should the House of Saud ever fall, they’d bring about another Iran, except one with a lot more power, influence, and money with which to bribe. Iran writ large, except Sunni and Arab.
I think we need to have a few conversations with them about this, and tell them that while Pakistan may have obtained the bomb in happier times, given the world-changing events that 15 Saudi citizens (of the 19 hijackers) of the non-Mammon-worshipping ilk managed to achieve on September 11, 2001, we would not see a Saudi bomb as being in our best interests. And we’re about their only friends in the world, including the vast majority of the Kingdom’s population. I’m sure we could come to some reasonable accommodation.
Somehow, when you spell it “programme” it doesn’t sound nearly as threatening.
Kind of classy-like. Same thing happens when you use John Cleese to sell garbage disposals.
Maybe that’s what throws Actus and the rest of the bitches off.
We’ve all seen the “result”.
I’m not surprised at all. Not only did Saudi Arabia help Pakistan develop its nuclear technology, Saudi Arabia basically helps Pakistan survive from day to day. No leader of Pakistan, even Musharraf, makes a large decision (especially with regard to foreign policy) without consulting Saudi Arabia. Pakistan is Saudi Arabia’s sattelite state in two way: financially, Saudi Arabia’s generosity keeps the country alive; religiously, Saudi Arabia funds many of Pakistan’s madrassahs and religious institutions. So, obviously Pakistan would be beholden to help Saudi Arabia with this project.
Although why Saudi Arabia would be so helpful to Pakistan escapes me. Propaganda aside, Pakistan wanted the bomb to deter India, not to raise Islam’s glory.
I agree with the Colossus: I’m somewhat okay with Pakistan having nukes as long as there’s someone strong and stable in power. Saudi Arabia is developing them only because they fear that if Iran gets a nuke, it will try to bully its way in the region, which might involve provoking Saudi Arabia’s Shiites to revolt. (I read somewhere that a lot of Saudi Arabia’s oil is in the Shiite region.) Saudi Arabia’s Shiites already have plenty of animosity to the House of Saud. And Khamene’i and his ilk, following Khomeini’s original revolutionary zeal, would love nothing more than exporting the Islamic Revolution.
Now, if a madman comes into power in Pakistan (which is not very difficult) or Saudi Arabia (a bit more difficult, as the House would have to be overthrown, but not impossible), we have genuine reasons to worry. Of course, then we can play Iran against either or both of them. Whereas Pakistan and Saudi Arabia may work in tandem, there is no way either of them will work with Iran nor will Iran work with either of the two.
The ruling members of the House of Saud values money more than anything. (Which is one reason why so many religiously-oriented people are so upset at the House of Saud.) They will not dare use their nukes to threaten Israel, the US, Europe, or other Western interests.
Although it may be extremely unlikely, I would not be surprised if the CIA or MOSSAD were helping Saudi Arabia. One excellent way to counter Iran’s nukes.
I’d like to hear what others, even Jeff, would say.
That’s an interesting theory, Mushiloon, but I simply can’t imagine the US or Israel wishing the exporters of Wahhabism to have nuclear weapons.
And with the state our intelligence services have been in, I just hope we’ve known about this for quite some time and have levers and measures in place to do whatever it is we think needs to be done here. What that is, I’m not sure.
Jeffy, I know your commenters are on their own, but my god man they are funny. (As are you, sorry—thin-skinned as you are.)
You asked for the invasion;
You asked for the nukes;
You let them run amok;
Your mouse voice is uhmm louder than words.
Or oh, maybe you thought the Iraq invasion was a bad idea?
No typos his time busy guy
As usual, I find Muslihoon quite plausible.
Snark and nastiness aside, keep in mind that as far as world oil supplies are concerned it’s Saudi Arabia and a bunch of also-rans. If Saudi oil went away we in the U.S. would be pinched badly, but Western Europe would freeze to death in the dark. It’s in everybody’s interest to keep SA at least metastable. And if it turns to worms—well, I think the Department of Colonial Affairs should be somewhere on I Street, don’t you?
I don’t like the idea at all, but I see the point. If the Iranians are going to have nukes (and it seems they are), there’s no logical reason to deny them to the Saudis and many reasons to at least accept the idea.
The biggest flaw is that Saudi Arabia is a totally hollow country. No Saudi actually does anything; their ideal is that of the British gentry ca. Jane Austen, in which anyone with an actual, identifiable occupation is “in trade” and therefore definitely of the lower classes. (If it ever becomes possible to hire someone to s*t for you, no Saudi will ever again need a toilet.) The actual work of running the country is done by Europeans and Americans (for tech and management) and various poor Islamics (for anything that involves effort). “Saudi” nukes will actually belong to their hired managers, probably Germans, Poles, and the occasional Brit. The possibilities multiply… on the other hand that may be hopeful. Recall the Arabic fable of the Sultan whose daughter wanted the Moon.
Regards,
Ric
Apparently coherence is not a requirement either at Atrios, not just his time.
Say what you will about Atrios, but Ducan is going to help Santos retain the Democrats control of the executive. How many of you can say you wield that much political power?
As to the Saudi’s getting nukes. Bad idea, we can’t let it happen.
Well that’s a fine how do you do. I seem to recall the central premise behind invading Iraq was the Administrations lie that Iraq might be SEEKING yellowcake in which to produce a NUC. NOW, were asking for nukes.
Get your shit straight Incon.
For what it’s worth, I predict the next Muslim nation to have nuclear weapons will be France.
And that’s a bad thing. I kinda liked the Riviera and all.
That was a good fucking catch Jeff. Thank you.
Link Fix to Times of India
Muslihoon’s post is interesting. However, one statement I tend to disagree with is this,
I think that Iran has as much or more to fear from the Saudis stirring up Iran’s sizable ethnic arab minority in the south.
50% of Iran’s population is made up of non Persian minorities, Arabs making up the biggest minority. Something that we in the west often overlook. It is mainly these minorities who our intelligence agencies in the west hope will foment a democratic revolution in Iran.
These minorities have been brutally oppressed. The Persian overlords of Iran have, in my opinion, more to fear from ethnic strife being stimulated within their borders than do the Saudis.
That being said, neither of these regimes can be trusted with nukes. Very scary times ahead.
Even shorter Jeff Goldstein:
‘I eat A-rabs, they a-scared!’
You’re a great American, Jeff.
Saudi nukes? Well, if Dubya doesn’t mind, who am I to argue? A sane person, you say? Well, then. In that case, it seems like an enormously bad idea. If the House of Saud needs something nuked, they should just call us. You don’t want spoiled rich kids having such dangerous toys.
WTF?
“Persian overlords?”
Did I just warp in from an alternate universe, or is Iranian history for the last 1400 years one long story of Arab culture being imposed on the Persian majority?
Yeah, expatriates tend to be radicals, but I didn’t think they were just inverting reality when they say that the Arba Culture Mullahs have been chipping away at Persian culture for 1400 years until there’s barely anything left.
Just my instinct for things that look wrong.
Not arguing that people are not oppressed in Iran, just that it’s more like “everybody who’s not a Mullah” than it is Persians oppressing Arabs.
If I am from an alternate universe, I will no doubt have much to learn.
No problems, Jeff. The Democrats will regain powah by simply guaranteeing to efficiently dispatch the planet’s most sinister villian. The one moonbats have absolutely no fear of.
In another thread the good Dr.BDH pointed out the dangerous ills of Bushco’s Star Wars delusions, but it now turns out the problem wasn’t Darth McVaderChimpy’s Empire after all.
It was Bin Joker.
There is no threat from Al Qaeda till we’re attacked, and then it was because of Bush’s incompetence, warmongering, and failure to appreciate their culture.
…oh, and I DEMAND PASTE!!
Damn scary.
As if things aren’t bad enough already.
That’s all we need, ragheads with nuclear weapons.
Christ, talk about SA bankrolling terrorists; bankrolling A-bombs trumps everything!
Hey Jeff, what brand of paste do you prefer?
I’m an Elmer’s man myself.
BECAUSE OF THE ADHESIVES!!!
Missed a spot on that window over there, Carl.
[cue furious licking]
Bad idea.
No nukes for Saudis. No nukes for Iranians. While we’re at it, no nukes for Gumby.
I’m afraid they’ll all just have to do without.
Assuming <sarcasm> tags, I’m confused. I thought one of the standard lefty talking points was that the Bush administration was incompetent for “ignoring” nuclear non-proliferation?
And now Powerline is reporting Saddam’s nuclear program remained active… in Libya.
Right up until the war. You know, the war that didn’t make us any safer.
Frankly, Carlgossborg, I’d be more concerned if I were you that our resident law student—bad spelling, inane talking points, chronic public embarrassment and humiliation, 200mph moving goalposts and all—regularly outshines you…
An article on the past and futire of warfare, and how all roads to trouble lead to Pakistan.
Saudi bar codes can be found on half of Pakistan’s nuclear weapons
Huh?
Is he supposed to be speaking figuratively here? (Saudi “bar codes” because Saudi money, and a barcode somehow represents funding? In my world, a barcode is what you put on a product you’re selling, not a product you’re helping someone else make for their own use.)
Or is he batshit crazy and means it literally? I wouldn’t suspect that, except “Saudi bar codes” is such a weird, weird way to talk about Saudi funding.
Merovign: He was clearly referring to the ethnic-Arab minority, and an ethnic oppression, not a matter of cultures.
Even if the ethnic arabs and ethnic persians both have the same amalgam Arabo-Persian culture (beats me, I’m not an expert on Iran), there’s no reason there can’t be ethnic strife.
Sigivald:
Like I said, my impression was that the Arab minority both culturally and ethnically had disproportionate power, but then it was Persians telling me this, so WTF do I know.
He could have off-handedly been referring to Shi’ite/Sunni, in which case I’m sure that Sunnis (primarily Arabs and not Persians) have the short end of the stick in Iran.
All I know is there are more laid back, “bad muslim” beer-drinking, music-playing, dancing and carrying on Persians than you might expect, and the impression I got from Persian friends, and they were of the considered opinion that Arabs took their faith more seriously and thus formed the core of the Ayatollah’s enforcement.
As with everything, it’s probably more complicated than it needs to be.
AND I forgot to demand paste. WHAT WAS I THINKING?
Good, sweet, gourmet paste, like the kind of paste that Mother used to make…
United States Military Training Mission to Saudi Arabia has been in Saudi Arabia since the 1940’s, and is still there today. We’ve got trainers and access to all their military installations. It is inconceivable that with day to day contact with all the various Saudi Defense Ministries, that they could have a “Secret” nuclear weapons program. It would be the equivalent of saying that the British Government, having British Scientists working at LosAlamos, didn’t know about the Manhattan Project.
http://www.defenselink.mil/dodgc/olc/docs/test05-03-03Abizaid.doc
Who you talkin’ about 6gun? What law student?
Merovine said above,
The consensus anwer based on historical fact is a resoundig, yes.
Let’s look at what’s happening now.
Here’s a brief example,
So, let’s clarify it for you.
1. The present day Iran is run by Persians.
2. The Peersians brutally repress their ethnic minorities.
3. While the Shiites in Saudi are not treated like first cousins to the family Saud, they suffer nothing like the repression that the ehtnic minorities suffer at the hands of…their Persian overlords!
4. The Shiites in Saudi are also ethnic Arabs, not an ethnic minority as well as a religious minority.
The final sentence in your comment is totally correct.
The article quotes an American expert named John Pike who asserts that the Saudis helped pay for the original Paki nuclear weapon’s development and construction, and that nuclear Johnny Appleseed Abdul Qadeer Khan’s work goes on in the Kingdom.
These stories surface from time to time about Saudi Arabia, but the rumor of Saudi nuclear scientists working in Pakistan stretches the imagination. What is more credible is the eventual transportation of nuclear weapons from Pakistan to Saudi Arabia, a country which regards Iran as a traditional rival and enemy.
The Saudis bought medium-range ballistics missiles from the Chinese in the 1980’s and hid the missiles and their acquisition from American intelligence until US satellite surveillance discovered them. The US sent in its Ambassador to protest, and the US envoy, Hume Horan, was practically PNGed out of the Kingdom. The US subsequently discovered to its own embarrassment that the missiles that the Chinese sold the Saudis was equipped with US gyroscopes and aeronautics illegally sold to the Chinese by the Israelis, who unlike the Saudis were never admonished for breaking security agreements with the USA.
Given the Americans’ sorry intelligence track record with its own equipment sold by “allies” to potential enemies, can we be surprised if German and other foreign intelligence agencies again are correct while the CIA and DIA are still in the dark?
If past is precedence, the Saudis may well acquire a nuclear capacity before the US ever finds out about it.
Not that it matters much, but according to the CIA’s The World Factbook, Iran’s ethnic divisions are
A few other quotes:
From some website on the Shiites in Saudi Arabia:
(Emphasis added.)
From an article by al-Jazeerah (”Saudi Shia seek greater rights”
:
(Emphasis added.)
What is sure is that there is no doubt whatsoever that relations between Saudi Arabia and Iran are very strained, and that each can (and perhaps even have) manipulate one’s opponent’s minorities.
For reasons of regional equilibrium, it makes sense for Saudi Arabia to have nukes, particularly of it remains closely tied with the West. Not that this justifies anything. If anything, Iran is to blame. One reason why we have strongly opposed a nuke-armed Iran is because of the inevitable arms’ race.
I do have to say that I strongly doubt US or Israeli agencies are helping Saudi Arabia. That was quite ridiculous of me to even bring up. But I strongly believe that the governments and agencies of the US and Israel have known about this program. What they plan to do about it, if anything, is beyond me.