[ed’s note: my response to Glenn Greenwald’s latest attempt to engage in easy, simplistic, disingenuous, and bold-stroked narrative fantasy is here; if Glenn’s post is what brought you here, please relegate your comments to the new thread.]
******begin original post
“Russ Feingold reveals what many Democrats really want.” From the WSJ:
Republicans are denouncing Senator Russ Feingold’s proposal to “censure” President Bush for his warrantless wiretaps on al Qaeda, but we’d like to congratulate the Wisconsin Democrat on his candor. He’s had the courage to put on the table what Democrats are all but certain to do if they win either the House or Senate in November.
In fact, our guess is that censure would be the least of it. The real debate in Democratic circles would be whether to pass articles of impeachment. Whether such an inevitable attempt succeeds would depend on Mr. Bush’s approval rating, and especially on whether Democrats could use their subpoena power as committee chairs to conjure up something they could flog to a receptive media as an “impeachable” offense. But everyone should understand that censure and impeachment are important—and so far the only—parts of the left’s agenda for the next Congress.
And not just the loony left either, though it’s getting harder to distinguish them from the mainstream variety. Mr. Feingold is hardly some Internet crank. He’s a third-term Senator from a swing state who has all but announced his intention to run for the Democratic Presidential nomination in 2008. He was the first major Democrat to call for the U.S. to withdraw from Iraq, and half his party was soon demanding the same.
As a legal matter, Mr. Feingold’s censure proposal is preposterous. The National Security Agency wiretaps were disclosed to Congressional leaders, including Democrats, from the start. The lead FISA court judges were also informed, and the Attorney General and Justice lawyers have monitored the wiretaps all along. Despite a media drumbeat about “illegal domestic eavesdropping,” Mr. Bush’s spirited defense of the program since news of it leaked has swung public opinion in support.
But as a political matter, the Wisconsin Senator knows exactly what he’s doing. He knows that anti-Bush pathology runs so deep among many Democrats that they really do think they’re living in some new dictatorship. Liberal journals solemnly debate impeachment, and political-action groups have formed to promote it. One of our leading left-wing newspapers recently compared Mr. Bush to J. Edgar Hoover and Richard Nixon, as if there were even a speck of evidence that this White House is wiretapping its political enemies.
When the fever gets this hot in supposedly mainstream forums, Mr. Feingold is right to conclude that the facts behind any censure or impeachment motion won’t really matter. All that will count is the politics, which means it will come down to a question of votes in Congress. And several leading Democrats have already raised the “impeachment” card.
[…]
[…] everything that Mr. Bush has been accused of during the last five years, no matter how Orwellian or thoroughly refuted, will be trotted out again and used as impeachment fodder. And lest you think this could never happen, Judiciary is the House committee through which any formal impeachment resolution would be introduced and proceed. As the country heads toward 2008 and a Democratic nomination fight, John Kerry and Hillary Rodham Clinton would be hard-pressed to avoid going along with Mr. Feingold, Al Gore, and others feeding the bile of the censure/impeach brigades.
Which brings us back to Mr. Feingold’s public service in floating his “censure” gambit now. He’s doing voters a favor by telling them before November’s election just how Democrats intend to treat a wartime President if they take power.
Not only do they want to block his policies, they also plan to rebuke and embarrass him in front of the world and America’s enemies. And they want to do so not because there is a smidgen of evidence that he’s abused his office or lied under oath, but because they think he’s been too energetic in using his powers to defend America. By all means, let’s have this impeachment debate before the election, so voters can know what’s really at stake.
[My emphases]
What to even add here? The move is afoot to annoint Feingold the de facto King of the Democratic base—a sure sign that truth is no longer even a consideration (Feingold, for those of you who don’t know, was not among those briefed about the NSA program, and so his “censure” proposal is based on…well, what? Glenn Greenwald’s lengthy, question-begging legal analyses?)
Who knows? But the sad fact is that with the help of an amenable and ideologically sympathetic press, such a purely partisan gambit could well come to pass—and America’s leadership in the war on terror will be severely undermined (until such time, that is, when the Democrats take back leadership, the fantasy goes, and they return us to those nuanced days of 9/10, when terrorism was fought with paper threats, impotent missile lobs, and the hopes that law enforcement techniques—and stalling—might prevent major disaster until a time when the blame could be placed on anything and everything (America’s past sins, its “racism” and “xenophobia,” its “imperial designs, et al) but a lack of determined leadership. In the meantime? Smoking bans and Twinkie taxes!)
The measure will succeed, too, in the only way it is intended to succeed—it will diminish the Bush presidency, it will attempt to roll us back into alignment with the impotent consensus builders at the UN, and it will provide us with a “defeat” many on the left believe we need in order to “humble” us.
Of course, the long-term effects will be quite disastrous—as they will bear out the prediction of our enemies that we as a country don’t have the will to stick together long enough to fight a determined enemy, particularly after 40-years of having our own western liberal cultural deconstructed, diminished, and demonized.
But then, today’s liberal-Democrats are nothing but opportunistic and increasingly reprehensible tin-plated Macchiavellians; to many of these people, rhetoric trumps truth; spin is paramount, and power is all.
Never before in my lifetime did I find it even remotely possible that our country could fight another civil war. But I’m beginning to think that a (non-violent) civil war is coming—and that, frankly, it needs to happen. How it transpires, I have no idea—though I suspect migration patterns and a strong move to re-affirm federalist principles could provide the groundwork.
Philosophically, we have lost our way. And we’d better find our way back to our founding principles, or—as powerful as we are—we are doomed to slip into nannystate socialism, while a feckless foreign policy permits radical Islam to spread across the globe like the cancer it is.
(h/t Allah; see also, AJ Strata, All Things Beautiful, and Decision ‘08)
Is this surprising? Its not that hard to imagine that a democratic house might want to spend at least as much money and TV face time chasing down GOP corruption as was done on blowjobs and land deals.
Civil War?
You mean that Kulturkamp stuff people like Pat BUchanan used to put out some years ago?
Not likely.
And the last I looked, it isn’t just Dems who are beginning to dislike Mr Bush.
There might be civil broils, but only between the various wingnut factions of the GOP.
Circular firing squad, I think E. J. Dionne calls it.
Which is just fine in my book;–makes the possibility of a Dem gain in the next Congressional elections, that much stronger.
The fact that there is not even an allegation of “corruption” regarding the NSA program of course does not stop actus from his usual baseless slander.
Nothin’ but net, Actus.
Blah blah right-wing Rumsfeld warmonger chickenhawk evil Bushies Wolwowitz and his neocon cabal for oiloiloiloiloiloil blah blah ignorant stupid bloodthirsty morons, the real axis of evil on a ranch in Crawford and blah blah blah no WMD he lied, Bushitler lied, people died died died tie-dyed peace peace peace down with the Zionists! peace peace Kyoto! they hate us they hate us they hate us and what can we do and root causes and root causes and blowback and Plame and Plame and Chalabi Plame Wilson blah blah blah unilateral multinational Halliburton Enronism crony capitalism and it’s all about oiloiloiloil blah blah blah, cowboyish disregard for allies, for the wishes of the world community who rise up against us, the terrorist threat is overblown and anyway, it’s all our fault because we gave Saddam his weapons to begin with, photo of Rummy and Hussein, but make no mistake, he no longer has those weapons because inspections worked, containment worked, and blah blah blah Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Sudan handle it, Roy, handle it handle it, Caspian pipeline oiloiloiloil blah blah blah show me the stockpiles, anthrax CIA plant Richard Clarke said so and we believe him because and unless unless unless Abu Ghraib Abu Ghraib Abu Ghraib, square-jawed cocksucking military jarhead torturing fucks, bring home our troops! We care about the troops! We support the troops and don’t you question our patriotism our love for this fucking filthy crass consumerist bullying country of redneck dolts and biblethumping bourgeois suburbanites with their SUVs and where are the CAFE standards fight the real terror, eco-terror, Israel, the US, imperialist colonialist racist homophobic hegemonic and blah blah blah blah blah because dissent is patriotism and fighting against your country is really fighting for your country and our dissent keeps the nation strong and we’re brave and heroic and up is down and black is white and oiloiloiloiloiloiloiloil blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.â„¢
[note—Cain’s comment edited for clarity and convenience, and Cain himself has been escorted out by the resident chickenhawk in chief]
“neocon Jeff” translation: “dat Joo”
“Actus, you are a worthy intellectual adversary.”
— Chief Wiggum
And the last I looked, it isn’t just Dems who are beginning to dislike Mr Bush.
This sums it up perfectly for me, to some all of this (islamofascism, principles, the war, etc) can only ever be about George W. Bush. Terrorism and theocrats, never existed before Bush. Wiretapping of international communications, unprecedented before Bush. It’s as if they honestly think that if only Bush would vanish every single problem in the world would vanish with him. Madness.
What would a non-violent civil war look like?
“Those blowjobs were free, dammit!! I never paid for it in my life.”
—W.J. Clinton
RE: Civil War 2
Here is a real review of Instapundit’s book from Amazon.com. Note the last sentence. Welcome to Howard Dean’s Amerikka:
McWorld unsustainable, March 9, 2006
rof. Jane Doe – See all my reviews
Reviewer
The thesis of this book is the individual versus “big” institutions, i.e. progressive and democratic institutions created over the last 100 years. The author is basically encouraging people to corrupt our social democracy for fun and profit…replacing “big” media with Fox News and blogs, replacing unions with Wal-Mart, replacing democracy with the increasing theocratic, capitalist and authoritarian GOP rule. Those of us who consider ourselves progressives shouldn’t worry. This is just a ripple in a pond. Our social democracy is stronger than these right-wing crazies. The Democrats will regain power over Congress and the White House. Big Media will continue to expose the true motivations of “citizen journalists” (i.e. that Karl Rove and corporations are the paymasters), and we will vote into place sensible regulations and controls over the so-called “New Media” through campaign finance reforms. The end of talk radio and Faux News and “Rathergate” looms near…I home they enjoyed their 15-minutes of fame. Sure they have the NRA and guns (for now), but we have justice and the people on our side.
—
So why do you think Civil War Part Two will be nonviolent? Have the commies ever been non-violent?
Funny, no one stood up to vote for it.
When even Chuck Schumer won’t comment on it, you know its got to be a dog.
Call em on their shit and they come crawling out of the woodwork…crazy moonbats!
I for one hope it comes to civil war, I’m ready. Should be over in a day or two.
And we’d better find our way back to our founding principles, orâ€â€as powerful as we areâ€â€we are doomed to slip into nannystate socialism, while a feckless foreign policy permits radical Islam to spread across the globe like the cancer it is.
These are the stakes, indeed. Yet too many people, like the perseverating “Cain” (who posted the indentical, error-filled screed on Ace of Spades) are just cool with that.
The croc will eat them last, they suppose.
Cordially…
Speaking of huge face time, where has Teddykeddy been?
Sign of a coming a civil war? I doubt that. However, I do think that this censure stuff is a good indication that the Republican majorities in the house and Senate will, for good or ill, continue to grow, and that the influence of the American University and Media, who happen to be the Democratic parties most ardent proxies, will continue to shrink from sight. There was an old saying about a stupid party and an evil party. Now there is a stupid party and a really, really stupid party. I’ll leave it to the rest of you to sort out which is which.
Of course, if there is another major terror incident in the US all bets will be off, and the mood of the average American, who is growing rather tired of those who condemn the bumbling of the Administration with far greater vigor than they protest the purposeful depredations of jihadis, will grow much uglier.
Either way, unless the Democratic party does an about face on terror, it is in for a rocky ride.
Non-violent civil war examples form the top of my head:
– Orange revolution in Ukraine.
– William of Orange’s little coup in Great Britain
– Fall of the Soviet Union as Boris Yeltzin’s faction seizes power from Gorby
I guess these are really “revolutions” rather than “civil wars”…
Maybe it’s a civil war in which everyone uses nerf bats to bludgeon each other into submission?
Mayberry Macchiavellians.
The non-violent part of our current civil war started awhile ago. It’s only a matter of time before these psychos start getting violent and bombing stuff. The left is dying and insane.
And you really ought to stop linking to stoptheaclu. They’re often phenomenally wrong. And you’re quite the smart guy. Smart enough to know better.
Cain,
Chickenhawks? Gawd, that is so 2004-2005. Oh, and I know you aren’t talking to me…right?
If it is to be non-violent, I had best practice my tickling grips and holds.
An election?
The civil rights movement.
Can’t attack the argument, can you, actus?
Attack an argument? He can’t make one.
But that boy can dance.
Maybe he can sub for the ‘dillo?
Maybe he is the ‘dillo!
Keep strokin’ it, cain. Amazing you can C&P with one hand down your pants.
When all of your beloved Dem senators get a sudden case of stage fright or camera shyness over one of their fellow’s motions, a sane person might conclude it blew. Hard. But, hey, a big thanks to Feingold for such a sweet gift from this neocon.
Sigh. Sanity is such a scarce commodity on the left these days.
If you are really concerned about a Blue vs. Red Civil War, move South. We are better prepared this time. (Watch for the Bush-Cheney t-shirt).
Cain,
OK, here’s some simple math for you:
# of people directly killed over past 25 years as a result of Saddam Hussein’s regime (Iran-Iraq war, suppression of Shia revolt, slaughter of Kurds): approx 2 million
# of civilian deaths from all causes due to Hussein, based on your ratio, assuming Hussein was no worse than the U.S. which is pretty fucking generous: approx 8 million
Expected life of regime, absent intervention: indefinite. But let’s give them just 25 years.
Net lives saved, based on the regime continuing same behavior as the last 25 years over next 25 years: 8 million less 130,000 = 7.87 million.
So: democracy, free press, free speech, and 7.87 million lives saved. Heckuva job!
I do hope Cain sued his grade school grammar teachers for malpractice.
Guys, let’s all chill. I can’t see the Left getting together anything more organized than a carpool to Burning Man.
Besides, the interesting thing will be when Dubya leaves office in 2009. What will these young pishers do with themselves and their hate? The frustration will almost be like a cock-block.
TW: Why, yes, I’m looking forward to seeing that, yes I do.
Oh. stop the aclu? they’re the ones that claimed that EPIC was awarded top secret data pursuant to a FOIA request. You’d be exagerrating by callign this an argument. Or the pointing out of how wrong this is an ‘attack.’
But if you must, we’re not really in a non-violent civil war when UFPJ is using strong rhetoric for a tiny demo at the white house. Not given the history of this country.
I wish the Democrats all the success in the world, I really do. In fact, in some ways I’m counting on it. The more successful they are, the less chance they’ll win another election in my lifetime or even thereafter, and it just doesn’t get any better than that.
You know, I’m in favor of getting the censure bill debated, if only to see who’s got the balls to stand up for what they’ve been saying in the press all this time. If it turns out, though, that Bush actually has been breaking the law, don’t we want to know?
I know I do.
Just figured I’d point out, it was less about blowjobs and more about perjury and improper conduct by a President. Clinton was not impeached but he was certainly disbarred.
And is the impeachment thrust simply going to be “Bush is a shitty president”. Cause honestly, other than that memme, liberals have nothing. I’m pretty sure you can’t impeach a president on the grounds that “he’s an asshole”.
Finally, I wish our two liberal gunners would be patient enough to let others post first before the entire thread spirals down into ad hominems.
Just picking a nit, Matt. I think I know what you meant, but Clinton was impeached by the House, but not convicted by the Senate.
There is no basis in fact for impeachment of Bush. Simply because one does not like his policies or disagrees with the way he runs the executive branch does not rise to “high crimes and misdemeanors”. Political impeachment without chargeable crimes is called an election. He wasn’t voted out.
Hey Salt Lick,
Nice video. How many terrorists did they kill? None? Maybe they should shoot some more!
So, whose the enemy Salt Lick? Your fellow Americans?
Just wondering. And, people wonder why we are losing the war on terror.
Most of you are too busy making ememies of your fellow citizens.
…said the man making gross generalizations based on a tongue-in-cheek comment.
Amazing. The tone-deafness, I mean.
On a blog. Whoda thunk it?
At the end of the day I tend to think the American people are wiser than most politicians give them credit for. They will not put the Dems back in power in the legislature, they will be willing to stay the course in this war and next presidential election there will be another Republican in the White House. There will be no censure and there will be no impeachment. There will be far more political theater, as that seems all the left has these days. Bad decisions and political theater.
The MSM can float as many polls to prop up the left into fits of self-delusion as they want, but at the end of the day the people are going to vote for their survival and for the continuation of our way of life. I’d put money on it.
As to civil war, I know what you are saying, but I think that even a mass migration to the ‘correct’ color state is highly unlikely as most people are willing to lead their lives with very little thought to politics.
Having said that, I do think we are likely to see a reprise of some 60’s type violence from some of the more fringe leftie groups, but perhaps only after another election or 2 in which they become increasingly despondent that they cannot win at the ballot box. Maybe.
All my opinion only of course.
Obviously its going to be at least two more election cycles before the Democrats become adult.
Dear Senator Feingold–
This is not 1968. We are not fighting in Vietnam. Lyndon Johnson is not President.
And you sure as hell are not Eugene McCarthy.
And if this really is the strategy the Dems are taking into ‘08…LET’S ENCOURAGE THEM. It makes Senator Horseface look like the second coming of Scoop Jackson during the last election by comparison. And that takes work.
Meanwhile, in a darkened study in McLean, Virginia, Karl Rove chuckles and whispers…”Excellent.”
Oh, and actus, as always–you are an idiot.
DPW has a troubling aspect to Dems if they care to look.
Americans have moved to the RIGHT of GWB. And feel Muslims in general are the enemy of America and Americans. And deserve a thorough ass-kicking.
Which doesn’t help Dems when they push unilateral surrender on any effort to stop terrorists. Most Americans are not offended by surveillance on terrorists. They want to know why the Yale Taliban wasn’t shot. Or locked in Gitmo.
GWB would be toast if Dems said “lets triple the military, invade Iran and Pakistan, kick ass and take names, oh and Saudi too. Pump out all their oil and let them eat sand.” Dems blasting the President for nuking Iran ALREADY would find great traction.
Feingold is pathetic. Like Lindbergh praising Hitler in 1942.
Feingold is behaving like a chunk of “Pyrite”, not the idealistic man who first campaigned as a representative of mainstream Wisconsin progressivism.
I really must quibble a little with your take on the ludicrous misconduct being undertaken by the junior senator from the great state of Wisconsin.
I take great offense to calling Russ Feingold a “Cheesehead” In Wisconsin, that is not an appropriate way to put down a person. As a resident of Northeast Wisconsin for the past 53 years, I am proud of being a CheeseHead.
Mr. Feingold though has betrayed just about every single one of the ideals he spewed for political and public consumption back when he first got elected to the senate.
I believe it would be more appropriate to call the junior senator Russ Fein-“Pyrite” because he has seriously taken over the job of “Senate Class Clown” and is truly playing the fool lately.
Are these two linked? like, are you saying the second sentence is a rightist view?
I think this action is much narrower than you indicate. I don’t think its about actual impeachment – I think it’s about the 2008 Dem nomination.
Feingold is trying to position himself on the left. He doesn’t have the name recognition of Dean or Al Gore, so he’s trying to gain some attention.
Come 2008, he’s going to try to position himself as the Great Left Hope. So, expect a lot more stupidity from him over the next 2 years.
The animal rights nutjobs and econuts made that trip long ago. During the 2004 campaign, a handful of Bush-Cheney campaign offices were attacked by union activists all on the same day. Milwaukee had some petty vandalism directed against the Bush-Cheney campaign from Kerry campaign hangers-on, and East St. Louis had murder contracts being taken out in a vote-fraud conspiracy.
Yeah, it’ll get worse. The only question is if someone’s going to do anything about it. I don’t expect any Democrats to do anything—like toning down the “Bush is Hitler” crap, isolating the real nutjobs, or pushing for stronger penalties for politically-motivated violence.
During the Civil War, we didn’t have this Blue State-Red State sort of divide. We don’t really even have a true Blue State-Red State divide now.
Everyone knows someone who voted for Kerry and everyone knows someone who voted for Bush.
During the Civil War, whole states were unified in their thinking and couldn’t find a neighbor who’d think otherwise.
Vladimir,
Good point – but civil wars can start with plenty of opposed people mixed all together geographically. For some reason the absolute muddle of a map I once saw of the old English Civil War comes to mind…or the Fronde in France (not really a civil war, I guess) etc. But you still make a very good point.
It is sobering to read so many comments that reflect serious denial of how sour the American public has become on George Bush; I hear it every day in the red county in which I live. And the miserable debacle in Iraq has a huge amount to do with that—Greg D. over at Belgravia Dispatch (!) just posted this:
There will be more of that in the weeks and months to come, from those of us who are honest. I admitted over a month ago that the war was a failure. It is just not feasible any longer to blame the liberal media, supposedly biased polls & etc.
The latest Pew poll says “incompetent” is now the single most cited word to describe Bush. “Liar” isn’t far behind. If you think this same public won’t be willing to consider meaningful investigations into whether Bush is illegally spying on Americans—even if that takes a censure resolution to keep the issue alive in the face of all of Frist’s machinations to kill it and avoid hearings in any committee— I submit you are mistaken. Everybody wants the govt spying on Al Qaeda, but I doubt the public will accept spying in violation of a federal law, and with no judicial oversight.
Not a public that is already very down on George Bush.
Mona
So you would betray the troops. How nice for you. They wish to finish the job, and you would encourage them to quit, knowing that the next time will be even more difficult.
If I turn out to be wrong, then I will be the first to admit it. Can we count on the same from you?
I’m honest, Mona. And I don’t agree one bit with your characterization; nor do I care that people have learned to parrot the “liar” and “incompetent” meme. That just means they still get their news from traditional sources.
Why do people keep bringing up former war supporters who’ve now become critics—as if only they are paying attention to what’s going on in Iraq? Others of us get our information, process it, and come to a different conclusion. That makes us dishonest?
Well, I guess so. I mean, if a failure to turn up WMD stockpiles everyone believed were present can be redefined as “lying,” then believing what you truly believe can be framed as “dishonesty.”
Disappointing.
PULL OUT NOW! IT’S THE ONLY WAY TO DEFEAT THE TERRORISTS!
Or maybe try this.
Me, I say fuck it. Surrender. I’m tired of hearing all the bitching and whining from those who, had there been a 24 hour news cycle and a media like we are now blessed with, would have called for us to pull out of WWII on a thousand occasions. Which is cool. I look great in ash.
I am always impressed by the ablity of those on the left to completely ignore reality, and base their opinions on an inward trip fueled by what appears to be a marijuana inspired fantasy of “Utopia”. Being morally superior (in the abstract) is the real driving force behind most of what I hear coming from the left. Damn the reality, full speed ahead! “People are nice, ya know?” “If we’re just nice to them, they will be nice to us, ya know?” Just ask any drunken college student (when they are not fighting with each other), and they will tell you. THEY can fuck people over, make fun of people who don’t “measure up”, or kick someone else’s ass, but that’s not how the world SHOULD be. How about we all look at the KosKids and see how much understanding and compassion (or even intelligence, for that matter) makes it’s way through the hate filled spewing that passes for comments over there. Pitiful.
And how could Bush possibly have a higher poll rating when the MSM has spent the last five years beating this guy over the head unmercifully with half-truths and lies? Bush lied? About what? We are definitely being lied to, but it ain’t by Bush.
But you know, the possibility of getting laid is enhanced by the appearance of “empathy”. Those “chicks” just love a sensitive guy. Know what I mean?
Let’s see.
Bush lied about WMD’s? He was the only man on the WHOLE PLANET that knew Saddam had no WMD’s? Anyone who has fifteen minutes to spare and can use even AOL search, knows the truth of this fantasy.
Bush is breaking the law by using “domestic surveillance” to spy on “real Americans”? Only a moron would believe this, and what Bush has actually been doing with this surveillance of terrorists has been supported by the courts no less than five times. Why did that little asshole Feingold run off the floor after making his ridiculous accusations against Bush? Isn’t he the same Feingold who (along with McCain) put a stake through the heart of the First Amendment? If Bush has broken the law, why has no one presented the evidence and sponsored articles of impeachment? It couldn’t be because there is not one SHRED of evidence, could it?
It’s just downright scary that the left cynically plays to ignorance and greed to justify their existence. What’s even scarier is that an absolute zero like Kerry came within about three million votes of being our President. Man, that’s scarier than “The Bridge At Andau”.
The truth is, the left and the MSM can get nothing they want at the ballot box by telling the truth, so their whole strategy is to LIE, LIE, LIE. If you have to lie to make your case, you have no case to make. Or am I just being old fashioned?
This country has become a parody of a parody, and it’s too bad that so many people think that God left us all this stuff to just kinda casually find. Blood, sweat, and tears. Three words that mean nothing to the immature children that comprise the bulk of the left – unless it’s somebody else’s blood, sweat, and tears.
Are we clear?
Actually, Jeff, I don’t quite get why “liar” came in a close 2nd or 3rd in the Pew poll, because the most solid reasons for believing that descriptor are not well or widely understood by the public. (I agree the WMD intelligence was nearly universally believed to be as Bush presented it.) But I do completely understand why “incompetent” was #1.
It is extremely—extremely—difficult for even the most honest person to concede that something they passionately advocated and defended was wrong, and that those they bitterly disagreed with, long and fiercely, were right. Given human nature, it would be astonishing if even 50% of the Iraq war supporters were ready to admit Bush has totally effed up that project. If Iraq exploded into undeniable civil war tomorrow, and set off a conflagration throughout the ME, some signicant percentage would say it is the fault of the left and the MSM, before they would ever admit that maybe, just maybe, Bush’s policies were to blame.
As for this: PULL OUT NOW! IT’S THE ONLY WAY TO DEFEAT THE TERRORISTS!, one hardly knows how to respond, because it glibly begs the most important question. We can’t just pull out and leave the Iraqis to die in the hundreds of thousands, but we also can’t forever serve as shield between the Shiites and Sunni who are driven by intense blood feud. But whatever the answer is, it should not be left to be found or implemented by the same incompetents who created the mess in the first place.
The really funny thing is that the thinking has become so shallow that the advocates for impeachment cannot even remember that getting rid of George Bush only serves to put Dick Cheney in office.
You’ll have to either go through a number of impeachments to accomplish the true goal or be willing to raise an army to drive them out en masse. I would highly recommend against any coup attempt.
Lost Dog writes:
Completely. Utterly. False.
Indeed, no one can figure out who has standing to get the issue before a court, because those spied on illegally—in violation of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act— do not know it. Specter considered legislation to place the question before the FIS Court in order to finally obtain a ruling, and several legal writers at NRO flew into a tizzy, claiming that Bush should ignore the FIS court if that happened and it ruled against him.
Which it would. So would the Supreme Court, likely 9-0.
Just leave it alone, Mona. Spare me the pop-pysch bullshit. I’m not suffering from denial. Bush’s policies to blame? That’s an abstraction. Be specific. Which policies? Taking out a dictator (who was to be followed by two other worse dictators)? Backing up the feckless UN’s words with some actions for a fucking change?
What policies, Mona? Or maybe I should just go reread my Pat Buchanan and save you the trouble of having to respond.
Then stop your bitching, would you?
Who says we have to be a shield forever? Is the political process not moving forward?
The only “mess” I see in Iraq is the mess of trying to rebuild a country from scratch with most of the world working against you, and with “insurgents” using anti-Americanism—including that coming from our own country—to win the PR war.
It sickens me. In fact, I don’t want to talk about it anymore. I’ve criticized plenty of strategic missteps. But these things happen. You adapt, you adjust.
On the other hand, if you can’t find it in you to see how endless carping and sniping from the left and the media has weakened the American will, you’re the one being dishonest.
Mona –
I don’t know where you get your information, but I would have to guess that the three networks and the NY Times are high on your list.
War is not a TV show, and one should never believe that it is. Of course mistakes have been made – some of them almost unforgiveable – but to say we are losing is to do exactly what those wuss Democrats and the terorists want you to do.
Basically, what we have in Iraq is about 25,000,000 people who are under threat of -what? – say 100,000 thugs who don’t believe in human rights.
If you think that we should abandon all the people who WANT freedom, then why don’t we abandon our own country to the Crips and the Bloods?
You need to stop looking at this picture through a straw (the MSM), and use your own brain to scour the internet. Try reading some Iraqi blogs. There are many of them, and just in themselves they paint a much truer picture of what’s going on in Iraq than do our own MSM reporters – who HATE Bush so much that there is no way they will ever give an inch on their predetermined opinions of the war.
I don’t know where you live, but let’s say that you live in a town of 20,000 people. Would you abandon your town because five or ten thugs were running around committing wanton and senseless murder as a way to attain complete control over what you can say, think, or do?
Who knows? Maybe you would, but I can’t quite imagine it.
“Lost Dog writes:
Only a moron would believe this, and what Bush has actually been doing with this surveillance of terrorists has been supported by the courts no less than five times.
Completely. Utterly. False.
Indeed, no one can figure out who has standing to get the issue before a court, because those spied on illegallyâ€â€in violation of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act do not know it.”
Wow! What an argument!
“…those spied on illegally…do not know it.”
But you DO? Right? The FISA court and the Congress were not informed of this program, were they?
And it is NOT “completely. Utterly. False.” that the courts have upheld the CIC’s ability to gather warrantless foreign intelligence.
The CIC has the power to gather foreign intelligence during wartime, and over the years this power has been upheld at least five times, and NEVER denied.
If you have evidence that the Bush administration has broken the law, PLEASE PRESENT IT!!!! Until you do, you are just another victim of mass hysteria. Howard Dean LOVES you!
Even better is to bring up the war supporters statements from when they were supporters.
Watching the Dems run against GWB in ‘08 is entertaining, but it would be nice if they paid some attention to
the war
social security reform
energy policy
immigration reform/border security
the looming collapse of the EU
the demographic time bomb that is China
national preparedness to face epidemics/bio attacks.
I’d mention out-of-control entitlement spending and our disgraceful public education system, but screwing those pooches are features, not bugs, of their philosophy. Keep ‘em stupid and send them checks is not a policy that leads to greatness. It does keep otherwise unemployable demagogues in front of lecturns and cameras though.
It surely does.
I could give a flying fuck what a media poll says any more. Watch elections – they are what counts.
Highest DOW ever. Unemployment UP last month to 4.8%. Home ownership, individual participation in markets, home schooling, hiring, manufacturing capacity, consumer confidence, all up across the board.
Five years after 9/11.
I don’t find the idea of a peaceful civil war unlikely in the least. I agree in spirit that our elections may be something of a metaphor for that, but it goes deeper. Media, Hollywood, Lefty intelligentsia, pollsters… they all expend tremendous effort and capital on selling a vision of economic failure, ecological disaster, racial strife, a looming police state,and imperialist foreign policy as our at rest state. It just ain’t that way for the vast majority of people who get up and go to work every day.
Watching a solid week’s worth of mass media selling that line and buying it is akin to thinking the last Oscars had anything to do with good cinema.
There will be no “reform” of the Democratic party. They are out of power until enough voters who lived through or came of age during the seventies die. Continental Europe today is what America would be today had there not been a Reagan. Reform implies a return to a workable paradigm (just shoot me for using that word in a sentence) and there’s never been anything workable about nanny-state socialism mated with identity politics in a democracy.
We may be politically apathetic by inclination. We are poorly served by our public educations.
But we aren’t stupid, and that’s what people like Feingold et al always seem to bet on.
Losers. Feingold will make a fine DNC chair; isn’t that the go-to slot for First Primary Losers?
“Impotent Missile Lobs Twinkie Tax” … now … there’s a headline.
I especially liked this one:
Very self-referential.
The “Mission Accomplished” bit…I just never got that. I think you have to be committed to ignoring certain realities (and inventing entirely new ones) to put that out there with a straight face.
Wow. These leftist talking points and thoughts always leave me with a very bad feeling of nausea. What must it be like to go through life each day with such venom and hatred, however mis-guided?
That’s because you have a simpleminded appreciation of what went on, Slart. It might have been easier for you to understand if it was styled “Phase I Complete Party”. The (up-to-now) bog-standard, purely military, big-bunches-o’-big-bangs action was done, and done well. No reason they shouldn’t be patted on the back for it, but I suppose that the fact that they didn’t spend the whole time singing “The Easy Part’s Over Now (And the Hard Part Begins)” with lugubrious expressions doesn’t fit your agenda.
Regards,
Ric
His new image: Benedict Feingold.
When I read Mona’s posts one mental image kept appearing to me. Picture Winston Smith being interrogated by O’Brian, with Mona playing the part of O’Brian.
Just a blatant appeal to authority, signifying nothing other than one individuals change in opinion. Personally, I am getting sick of seeing these poll numbers pop up everywhere too. That’s an appeal to the authority of the many, and brings nothing of substance to the discussion as Jeff rightly points out.
Better still is to keep in mind that Matthews and O’Reilly are the Oprahs of the political punditry.
Actus, you would be the one who calls people racist at a drop of a hat. Your credibility is zero.
Feingold may be an ultra-liberal, but he is also very intelligent. His censure ploy is not really a Presidential campaign move. It is a fund raising and power broker move. And a smart one. He knows he could never win the primary, but he can win negotiating power with enough funds and left wing support. His supporters should realize that the only reason to be a power broker is to be willing to sell out at some point in order to get something of value. And he will sell out at some point in order to gain something he desires. What that something will be is probably not known at this time, even to Feingold.
IMO the Republicans need Feingold. It is people like him that help keep them in power.
Lost Dog  “If you think that we should abandon all the people who WANT freedom, then why don’t we abandon our own country to the Crips and the Bloods?”
Given the choice, a true “progressive” will do exactly that. Back in the 90’s there was actually a push to recognize the streets gangs of Los Angeles as the de facto government of their neighborhoods and give them seats on the City Council…
Lamp posts: because motorcycles don’t have doors.
But I’m beginning to think that a (non-violent) civil war is comingâ€â€and that, frankly, it needs to happen.
C’mon, Jeff. Flesh this brilliant rhetorical flourish out a bit. What would it look like? Dazzle me.
Your meltdowns are always fun to watch. He’s an incompetent liar. You trusted him, and now your head is about to explode as you try to defend him.
Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.
You’re overly sensitive to race. Too defensive about it. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
The non-violent part of our current civil war started awhile ago. It’s only a matter of time before these psychos start getting violent and bombing stuff. The left is dying and insane.
Projection is so ugly…
Supreme Court Justice Reveals Death Threats
“Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg said she and former Justice Sandra Day O’Connor have been the targets of death threats from the ‘irrational fringe’ of society, people apparently spurred by Republican criticism of the high court.
“Ginsburg revealed in a speech in South Africa last month that she and O’Connor were threatened a year ago by someone who called on the Internet for the immediate ‘patriotic’ killing of the justices.
“Security concerns among judges have been growing.
“Conservative commentator Ann Coulter joked earlier this year that Justice John Paul Stevens should be poisoned. Over the past few months O’Connor has complained that criticism, mainly by Republicans, has threatened judicial independence to deal with difficult issues like gay marriage.
“Worry is not limited to the Supreme Court. Three quarters of the nation’s 2,200 federal judges have asked for government-paid home security systems, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales said this week.”
Those damned voilent librul lefties are so clever… pretending to be hate-driven, insane, ratfucker conservatives! I hate them so much…
True. The inverse Ockham’s Razor technique just never held that shiny-bauble fascination for me.
I’ve got a picture of myself in a flight suit; anyone want to photoshop a “Mission Accomplished” banner into it? Just for giggles?
“We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory, stretching from every battlefield and patriot grave to every living heart and hearthstone all over this broad land, will yet swell the chorus of the Union, when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature.” Lincoln’s First Inaugural Address, March 4, 1861.
???
What a well thought and reasoned argument. I’m sold, and I hereby promise to pretend that the threats of violence are the same as the actual violence that has occured. You sir, are a credit to your cause.
It’s really hard to understand why more people aren’t drawn to these sort of well reasoned arguments.
Well, I haven’t heard from this spittle-spewing moron since I was banned from Daily Pundit. I see nothing’s changed, and that I didn’t miss much.
Classic lefty bullshit. Back then, I challenged you on numerous occasions to name one actual LIE he told. You were never able to come up with one. Your criteria was always that if YGB doesn’t like the policy, it’s a lie.
There’s a case to be made for incompetent. Theres’ NONE to be made for lying, no matter how much you want it to be so.
Liars should look in the mirror befor they accuse others of being liars.
TV (Harry)
tw: anyone. Does anyone have a modicum of sanity on the left anymore?
This actually gets back to Jeff’s points above. The arguing is over – the other side doesn’t want to argue; they want power.
I say bring on the “civil” civil war. These guys need to be beaten to the point where they can never get power again.
TV (Harry)
I say continue to beat them at the ballot box. Let them continue to act like feces throwing monkeys, as I really do have faith that the populace will most often elect the side that is acting like the adults.
I also worry a little that the world will soon be reminded of why we are at war, even more so than the current uproar over drawings of Mohammed.
I also worry a little that the world will soon be reminded of why we are at war, even more so than the current uproar over drawings of Mohammed.
Me, too, DG. Me, too. In a particularly nasty reminder.
Who are you that I need to concentrate on dazzling you? You are a guy who plumbs the comment threads of conservative/libertarian blogs dropping snark under a fake name, but only when you can find the right “in”. You have no accountability. You are just a noise machine, so far as I’m concerned. And you want me—who attaches my name to my thoughts—to dazzle you? Right. Because your approval? Means the world to me.
And all this talk of meltdowns. How delightful! Yes, after 20000+ posts, that’s what it is—not that I find some pop-psych explanation of my reasons for continuing to support the Iraq strategy condescending, or the suggestion that to do so is “dishonest” (if only unconsciously, and only to myself)—it’s a MELTDOWN! Fact is, I have talked with Mona via email and like and respect her. So my lashing out at her condescension was at least authentic. Whereas you are here….why, exactly?
Listen, YGB. I don’t need your comments, because I know them in advance. I tire of the snarky provocateur with the fake name who tries to “dazzle” the wingnuts with open-ended questions and innuendo, with critiques that are never accompanied by anything other than disdain for those who attempt action (which is always, by nature of who is directing it, wrong).
You represent everything that is distasteful about partisan “debate” on the internet. You are dishonest, you cherrypick your entries into discussions, and you offer nothing constructive. Perhaps if you’d put your name to your “complaints,” you wouldn’t feel so comfortable unleashing such a stream of condescension on people you don’t know.
Fuck yourself. And goodbye. Go play with Bill Quick. I have no use for you here.
Nice bitch-slap, Jeff. Quite the mis-match, though.
To quote one of the snark-beasts who prowled here a few months back…
“Damn,.. just,…..damn”
The arguing is over – the other side doesn’t want to argue; they want power.
Pretty much exactly what we on the left have been saying for the last five years. Ironic, huh?
Oh, and Jeff—not to try and be your daddy or anything, but if you’ve descended to the point where you have nothing more to offer in riposte than a good ol’ cathartic Dick Cheney “fuck yourself,” it might be time to quit whingeing about the other side making ad hominem attacks.
I had remembered that as “Jesus…just,…Jesus”.
That was before the introduction of the decidedly inferior version of Nyquil, though.
Unsurprisingly, our latest constructive critic ignored the first, what – 4 full paragraphs of my “riposte” in order to suggest that I have nothing to offer but a “fuck you”?
There is the left in a nutshell. Despite the fact that evidence directly refuting their assertions stares them directly in the face, they pretend it doesn’t exist—and count on the rest of the fellow travellers to play along.
It’s like they say, “The emperor is naked, sure. But look at the ass on that guy. I’d follow such a glorious cornhole anywhere!”
Actually DG, we’re in agreement. That’s what I meant by “civil” civil war.
TV (Harry)
In extension to my last comment, Defense Guy said:
The 2006 elections will answer that question once and for all, I suppose. I’ll wait to judge the populace around then.
TV (Harry)
A non-violent civil war. Sure, Jeff. Sure.
You ought to be praying to whatever God you worship – hell, hedge your bets and invoke every god, goddess, and anyone/anything else you can think of – there isn’t another civil war in this country. It will make the first one look like a cakewalk. Non-violent, my ass.
You have no idea what you are wishing for. Thank God the country I love isn’t run by people who think like you. Wait a minute…it is.
We are in deep, deep trouble.
This is a good reply to critics of your link to stoptheaclu as ‘civil war.’
Hope you packed a clean pair of whitey-tighties, tristero.
The ball drops, I’m getting your IP from Jeff, a couple of corn-fed boys from West Ar-Kansas, and a tube of KY from actus.
We gonna make you squeal like a pig boy! Yeeee-haaa! Gonna get Med-EVIL on that a$$$$!
I hope you like scented.
Lost dog writes:
I get my information almost exclusively online, and have been reading Iraq the Model for almost two years. A few weeks ago, Mohammed posted sheer despondency, including an exchange he had had with his father. His father’s assessment is that the democracy project has failed, because the tribal/religious fanatics in Iraq are too driven by sectarian blood lust.
I don’t think Mohammed and his father are being dictated to or influenced by the NYT or American liberals. They live in Baghdad, where reason does not reign and with no promise that it will, and it was mortars and death that induced that desperate post.
OK Then. I hope I didn’t come off as jumping on your argument, as that was not my intention.
Lost dog continues in error:
Yes, lower courts have so ruled. And it is even odds the Supremes would uphold that, as pertains to the 4th Amendment, which the cases you are alluding to involved.
FISA is a statute. And there is ample precedent, including from the SCOTUS, that even when exercising inherent powers we all agree he has, a President must obey a law of Congress that applies in the same field. That is why even a lot of conservative legal scholars are convinced that what Bush is doing is illegal, and that he would lose if standing could be established and this matter brought before a federal court.
46 percent of Americans (48 percent of voters) support Sen. Russ Feingold’s censure resolution, while 44 percent (43 percent of voters) oppose the idea, according to an American Research Group poll.
I agree: By all means, let’s have this impeachment debate before the election, so voters can know what’s really at stake.
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