After watching the ABC “Nightline” report on Wednesday, which provided a sneak preview of some the Saddam tapes featured by the bi-partisan Intelligence Summit over the weekend, I found a few things to be clear: ABC, working from what some experts believe was a bad translation* and providing viewers with no chronological or global context for the snatches of audio (for instance, it would have been useful to know where the US was in their plans for Iraq, or what the UN was saying at the time of a given clip), chose to frame the story, fairly predictably, I’d say, as inconclusive; and other intel officials have concluded that the tapes tell us nothing new—that they are consistent with the findings of the Duelfer Report, which noted that Saddam had gotten rid of his WMD but maintaining the capability to reconstitute the weapons programs as soon as the international community turned its attention elsewhere.
After watching the “Nightline” report, I noted that what we learned—from Saddam’s own lips—was that the inspections weren‘t working, regardless of whether or one concludes Hussein was stockpiling biological and chemical weapons: again and again, we heard Saddam and his aides discoursing on how they were able to fool inspectors with subterfuge and misdirection. And, if you believe some of the alternate translations, Saddam’s admission that Iraq would never use such chemical or biological attacks on the US (a conclusion favored by ABC and Newsweek), actually supports the Bush administration’s fears—and our primary reason for invading Iraq: that the greatest danger posed by Iraq was Saddam’s willingness to farm these weapons out to terrorist groups for use, removing Iraq’s state fingerprints.
Listening to the tapes, you are left with one of two choices: you either believe Saddam was a self-important (though largely internationally impotent) iron-fisted ruler who posed no threat to the US, for all his bluster to the contrary; or else you believe him to be precisely the man he’s always been: a murderous tyrant who would use whatever means at his disposal—including alliances of convenience—to attack the US and its interests.
But there’s more even than that. Not being talked about much are the stories of two former Iraqi commanders who insist weapons stockpiles—which, critics of the Bush administration are forced to argue, either never existed (which the Kurds would naturally dispute) or else were voluntarily destroyed under orders from Hussein (or, if you prefer, by those risking their lives by hiding from him the fact of their destructions) shortly after the Gulf War—were removed to Syria and the existence of the programs scrubbed before the invasion, a story that is consistent with some of the findings by inspectors: equipment buried in rose gardens, dual use facilities sanitized, etc.
Also not being talked about is a story from the Intelligence Summit detailing a claim by former Deputy Undersecretary of Defense John A. Shaw claiming that Russia helped Saddam move his weapons to Syria and hide evidence of their existence. From Newsmax (which, regardless of what you think of it as a source, is here simply reporting on the Summit):
A top Pentagon official who was responsible for tracking Saddam Hussein’s weapons programs before and after the 2003 liberation of Iraq, has provided the first-ever account of how Saddam Hussein “cleaned up” his weapons of mass destruction stockpiles to prevent the United States from discovering them.
“The short answer to the question of where the WMD Saddam bought from the Russians went was that they went to Syria and Lebanon,” former Deputy Undersecretary of Defense John A. Shaw told an audience Saturday at a privately sponsored “Intelligence Summit” in Alexandria, Va.
“They were moved by Russian Spetsnaz (special forces) units out of uniform, that were specifically sent to Iraq to move the weaponry and eradicate any evidence of its existence,” he said.
Shaw has dealt with weapons-related issues and export controls as a U.S. government official for 30 years, and was serving as deputy undersecretary of defense for international technology security when the events he described today occurred.
He called the evacuation of Saddam’s WMD stockpiles “a well-orchestrated campaign using two neighboring client states with which the Russian leadership had a long time security relationship.”
Shaw was initially tapped to make an inventory of Saddam’s conventional weapons stockpiles, based on intelligence estimates of arms deals he had concluded with the former Soviet Union, China and France.
He estimated that Saddam had amassed 100 million tons of munitions – roughly 60 percent of the entire U.S. arsenal. “The origins of these weapons were Russian, Chinese and French in declining order of magnitude, with the Russians holding the lion’s share and the Chinese just edging out the French for second place.”
But as Shaw’s office increasingly got involved in ongoing intelligence to identify Iraqi weapons programs before the war, he also got “a flow of information from British contacts on the ground at the Syrian border and from London” via non-U.S. government contacts.
“The intelligence included multiple sitings of truck convoys, convoys going north to the Syrian border and returning empty,” he said.
Shaw worked closely with Julian Walker, a former British ambassador who had decades of experience in Iraq, and an unnamed Ukranian-American who was directly plugged in to the head of Ukraine’s intelligence service.
The Ukrainians were eager to provide the United States with documents from their own archives on Soviet arms transfers to Iraq and on ongoing Russian assistance to Saddam, to thank America for its help in securing Ukraine’s independence from the Soviet Union, Shaw said.
In addition to the convoys heading to Syria, Shaw said his contacts “provided information about steel drums with painted warnings that had been moved to a cellar of a hospital in Beirut.”
But when Shaw passed on his information to the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) and others within the U.S. intelligence community, he was stunned by their response.
“My report on the convoys was brushed off as ‘Israeli disinformation,’” he said.
One month later, Shaw learned that the DIA general counsel complained to his own superiors that Shaw had eaten from the DIA “rice bowl.” It was a Washington euphemism that meant he had commited the unpardonable sin of violating another agency’s turf.
The CIA responded in even more diabolical fashion. “They trashed one of my Brits and tried to declare him persona non grata to the intelligence community,” Shaw said. “We got constant indicators that Langley was aggressively trying to discredit both my Ukranian-American and me in Kiev,” in addition to his other sources.
But it was Shaw’s own friendship to the head of Britain’s MI6 that brought it all together during a two-day meeting in London that included Smeshko’s people, the MI6 contingent, and Clapper, who had been deputized by George Tenet to help work the issue of what happened to Iraq’s WMD stockpiles.
In the end, here is what Shaw learned:
# In December 2002, former Russian intelligence chief Yevgeni Primakov, a KGB general with long-standing ties to Saddam, came to Iraq and stayed until just before the U.S.-led invasion in March 2003.
# Primakov supervised the execution of long-standing secret agreements, signed between Iraqi intelligence and the Russian GRU (military intelligence), that provided for clean-up operations to be conducted by Russian and Iraqi military personnel to remove WMDs, production materials and technical documentation from Iraq, so the regime could announce that Iraq was “WMD free.”
# Shaw said that this type GRU operation, known as “Sarandar,” or “emergency exit,” has long been familiar to U.S. intelligence officials from Soviet-bloc defectors as standard GRU practice.
# In addition to the truck convoys, which carried Iraqi WMD to Syria and Lebanon in February and March 2003 “two Russian ships set sail from the (Iraqi) port of Umm Qasr headed for the Indian Ocean,” where Shaw believes they “deep-sixed” additional stockpiles of Iraqi WMD from flooded bunkers in southern Iraq that were later discovered by U.S. military intelligence personnel.
# The Russian “clean-up” operation was entrusted to a combination of GRU and Spetsnaz troops and Russian military and civilian personnel in Iraq “under the command of two experienced ex-Soviet generals, Colonel-General Vladislav Achatov and Colonel-General Igor Maltsev, both retired and posing as civilian commercial consultants.”
# Washington Times reporter Bill Gertz reported on Oct. 30, 2004, that Achatov and Maltsev had been photographed receiving medals from Iraqi Defense Minister Sultan Hashim Ahmed in a Baghdad building bombed by U.S. cruise missiles during the first U.S. air raids in early March 2003.
# Shaw says he leaked the information about the two Russian generals and the clean-up operation to Gertz in October 2004 in an effort to “push back” against claims by Democrats that were orchestrated with CBS News to embarrass President Bush just one week before the November 2004 presidential election. The press sprang bogus claims that 377 tons of high explosives of use to Iraq’s nuclear weapons program had “gone missing” after the U.S.-led liberation of Iraq, while ignoring intelligence of the Russian-orchestrated evacuation of Iraqi WMDs.
# The two Russian generals “had visited Baghdad no fewer than 20 times in the preceding five to six years,” Shaw revealed. U.S. intelligence knew “the identity and strength of the various Spetsnaz units, their dates of entry and exit in Iraq, and the fact that the effort (to clean up Iraq’s WMD stockpiles) with a planning conference in Baku from which they flew to Baghdad.”
# The Baku conference, chaired by Russian Minister of Emergency Situations Sergei Shoigu, “laid out the plans for the Sarandar clean-up effort so that Shoigu could leave after the keynote speech for Baghdad to orchestrate the planning for the disposal of the WMD.”
# Subsequent intelligence reports showed that Russian Spetsnaz operatives “were now changing to civilian clothes from military/GRU garb,” Shaw said. “The Russian denial of my revelations in late October 2004 included the statement that “only Russian civilians remained in Baghdad.” That was the “only true statement” the Russians made, Shaw ironized.
The evacuation of Saddam’s WMD to Syria and Lebanon “was an entirely controlled Russian GRU operation,” Shaw said. “It was the brainchild of General Yevgenuy Primakov.”
The goal of the clean-up was “to erase all trace of Russian involvement” in Saddam’s WMD programs, and “was a masterpiece of military camouflage and deception.”
Just as astonishing as the Russian clean-up operation were efforts by Bush administration appointees, including Defense Department spokesman Laurence DiRita, to smear Shaw and to cover up the intelligence information he brought to light.
“Larry DiRita made sure that this story would never grow legs,” Shaw said. “He whispered sotto voce [quietly] to journalists that there was no substance to my information and that it was the product of an unbalanced mind.”
Shaw suggested that the answer of why the Bush administration had systematically “ignored Russia’s involvement” in evacuating Saddam’s WMD stockpiles “could be much bigger than anyone has thought,” but declined to speculate what exactly was involved.
Retired Air Force Lt. Gen. Thomas McInerney was less reticent. He thought the reason was Iran.
“With Iran moving faster than anyone thought in its nuclear programs,” he told NewsMax, “the administration needed the Russians, the Chinese and the French, and was not interested in information that would make them look bad.”
McInerney agreed that there was “clear evidence” that Saddam had WMD. “Jack Shaw showed when it left Iraq, and how.”
Former Undersecretary of Defense Richard Perle, a strong supporter of the war against Saddam, blasted the CIA for orchestrating a smear campaign against the Bush White House and the war in Iraq.
“The CIA has been at war with the Bush administration almost from the beginning,” he said in a keynote speech at the Intelligence Summit on Saturday.
He singled out recent comments by Paul Pillar, a former top CIA Middle East analyst, alleging that the Bush White House “cherry-picked” intelligence to make the case for war in Iraq.
“Mr. Pillar was in a very senior position and was able to make his views known, if that is indeed what he believed,” Perle said.
“He (Pillar) briefed senior policy officials before the start of the Iraq war in 2003. If he had had reservations about the war, he could have voiced them at that time.” But according to officials briefed by Pillar, Perle said, he never did.
Even more inexplicable, Perle said, were the millions of documents “that remain untranslated” among those seized from Saddam Hussein’s intelligence services.
“I think the intelligence community does not want them to be exploited,” he said.
Among those documents, presented Saturday at the conference by former FBI translator Bill Tierney, were transcripts of Saddam’s palace conversations with top aides in which he discussed ongoing nuclear weapons plans in 2000, well after the U.N. arms inspectors believed he had ceased all nuclear weapons work.
“What was most disturbing in those tapes,” Tierney said, “was the fact that the individuals briefing Saddam were totally unknown to the U.N. Special Commission.”
Of course, the tapes are now available online, and each of you is invited to listen to them (and those of you who speak Arabic are welcome listen to them untranslated (there are 8 files in all).
Unfortunately, the laying of the groundwork over the last several years of the “official” story about a Iraq having no WMDs—a story that has ossified into historical fact, and is now part of the established record or the war—has already been so widely accepted that at least half of the electorate (and particulary, the vocal the anti-Bushies) will dismiss it out of hand by impugning the players: Tierney, Shaw, Perle [Fukuyama’s lengthy critique of neoconservatism, the majority of which argument Andrew Sullivan is aligning himself, is particularly interesting insofar as it seems to pine for the days of foreign policy realism and the coddling of dictators for stability; in that sense, Fukuyama not far away from today’s mainstream party Democrat on foreign policy, who in turn is approaching the neo-isolationist tendencies of Pat Buchanan and his ilk; for rejoiners, see Rick Moran, James Joyner, Roger Simon, and Condi Rice (via Greg Djerejian)], and Loftus. Similarly, they’ll dismiss the stories of former Iraqi commanders Georges Sada and Ali Ibrahim (see, too, “Nizar Nayuf (Nayyouf-Nayyuf), a Syrian journalist who recently defected from Syria to Western Europe and is known for bravely challenging the Syrian regime, who on January 5 wrote the Dutch newspaper De Telegraaf, to say he knows the three sites where Iraq’s Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD) are kept”) who will be painted as either opportunistic purveyors of misinformation, or else intel plants meant to muddy the waters.
So powerful has this narrative become, in fact, that just to be on the safe side, even those of us on the right who remain skeptical about the pristine condition of Saddam’s Iraq despite our “rush” to war (and despite the unearthing of chem suits, etc, in our advance to Baghdad) are approaching revelations from the Intelligence Summit with a healthy dose of dubiousness (in fact, several conservatives, like Debbie Schlussel, pulled out of the Summit)—most especially because two of the prime players involved, organizer John Loftus and former spook Bill Tierney, have, in the past, proven to go a bit heavy on the tinfoil headgear.
For my part, I’m going to break with my more cautious right-leaning brethren and warn that, because we have been conditioned to fear looking eager and foolish with regard to the WMD situation in Iraq, we should maintain our skepticism while also keeping our minds open.
Many of us are now convinced that the Security Council roadblock thrown up by the French was a product of their involvement in the Oil for Food scandal. To a lesser extent, we believed the same of Russia.
So before we are too quick to dismiss all this as the chasing of ghosts, we might want to decide how reliable we find former Deputy Undersecretary of Defense John Shaw and his sources; we also might wish to factor our (quite warranted) distrust of the entrenched CIA bureaucracy into the mix: how much of what we believe or disbelieve now about Saddam’s WMD program has to do with the finessing of the narrative by Langley.
And finally, this: is it plausible, as others have speculated, that the need for a strong international coalition to deal with Iran’s accelerated nuclear ambitions has convinced many in the US foreign policy camp to eat crow on WMD—at least for the time being—in exchange for promises of assistance from those countries who we know may have been participating in backroom deals with Saddam?
I don’t know. But I think it a mistake to dismiss out of hand some of what the Summit exposed simply because we wish to distance ourselves from the nutjobs and appear, by comparison, sane and evenhanded. Which is only to say that in our care to maintain our intellectual honesty, we need to guard against allowing our skepticism to overwhelm our curiousity.
(Here’s CNN’s report on the Summit; and to save you some digging, here’s some “dirt” on Shaw, which, read a particular way, bolsters his tale. For more on this story, see PJ WMD Files—which right now features Andrew Marcus’ interview with Congressman Hoekstra, chairman of the Select House Intelligence Committee.)
We see video on CNN showing rampaging Muslims around the world. In Europe, the Middle East, the Pacific Rim … Muslim Mobs spreading mayhem.  It seems that these mighty mad Muslims are rioting and firing their ever-present AK-47s into the air because of cartoons. This latest epidemic of Muslim outrage comes to us because some newspapers in Norway and Denmark published some cartoons depicting Mohammed.
Muslim outrage huh. OK … let’s do a little historical review.
Just some lowlights:
[1] Muslims fly commercial airliners into buildings in New York City. No Muslim outrage.
[2] Muslim officials block the exit where school girls are trying to escape a burning building because their faces were exposed. No Muslim outrage. *******************************************
[3] Muslims cut off the heads of three teenaged girls on their way to school in Indonesia. A Christian school. No Muslim outrage.
[4] Muslims murder teachers trying to teach Muslim children in Iraq. No Muslim outrage.
[5] Muslims murder over 80 tourists with car bombs outside cafes and hotels in Egypt. No Muslim outrage.
[6] A Muslim attacks a missionary children’s school in India. Kills six. No Muslim outrage.****************************************
[7] Muslims slaughter hundreds of children and teachers in Beslan, Russia. Muslims shoot children in the back. No Muslim outrage.
******************************************
[8] Let’s go way back. Muslims kidnap and kill athletes at the Munich Summer Olympics. No Muslim outrage.
[9] Muslims fire rocket-propelled grenades into schools full of children in Israel. No Muslim outrage.
[10] Muslims murder more than 50 commuters in attacks on London subways and busses. Over 700 are injured. No Muslim outrage.
[11] Muslims massacre dozens of innocents at a Passover Seder. No Muslim outrage.
[12] Muslims murder innocent vacationers in Bali. No Muslim outrage.
[13] Muslim newspapers publish anti-Semitic cartoons. No Muslim outrage
[14] Muslims are involved, on one side or the other, in almost every one of the 125+ shooting wars around the world. No Muslim outrage.
[15] Muslims beat the charred bodies of Western civilians with their shoes, then hang them from a bridge. No Muslim outrage.
[16] Newspapers in Denmark and Norway publish cartoons depicting Mohammed. Muslims are outraged.
[17]
Dead children. Dead tourists. Dead teachers. Dead doctors and nurses. Death, destruction and mayhem around the world at the hands of Muslims .. no Muslim outrage …
Is this really about cartoons?
They’re rampaging and burning flags.
They’re looking for non-Muslims to kidnap. They’re threatening innkeepers and generally raising holy Muslim hell not because of any outrage over a cartoon.
They’re outraged because it is part of the Islamic jihadist culture to be outraged. You don’t really need a
reason. You just need an excuse. Wandering around, destroying property, murdering children, firing guns into the air and feigning outrage over the slightest perceived insult is to a jihadist what tailgating is to a Steeler’s fan.
I know and understand that these bloodthirsty murderers do not represent the majority of the world’s Muslims.
When, though, does the majority become outraged? When do they take to the streets to
express their outrage at the radicals who are making their religion the object of worldwide hatred and ridicule?
Islamic writer Salman Rushdie wrote of these silent Muslims in a New York Times article three years ago.
“As their ancient, deeply civilized culture of love, art and philosophical reflection is hijacked by paranoiacs, racists, liars, male supremacists, tyrants, fanatics and violence junkies, why is the majority not screaming?”
Indeed. Why not?
Kurt Westergaard, Cartoonist **************************************** Kurt Westergaard is the cartoonist who drew Mohammed with a bomb in his turban. He has gone into hiding, but has now expressed his opinion for the Muslims who have forced him to do so. – REG  TG
Well done TG. Well done…………….
is it plausible, as others have speculated, that the need for a strong international coalition to deal with Iran’s accelerated nuclear ambitions has convinced many in the US foreign policy camp to eat crow on WMDâ€â€at least for the time beingâ€â€in exchange for promises of assistance from those countries who we know may have been participating in backroom deals with Saddam?
Plausible? Yes. Will it be fruitful?. I doubt it. Why should we think that the same countries that were in bed with Saddam are not also double dealing us in Iran? The U.S. covering up the sins of Russia, et al in Iraq, does not encourage cooperation from those nations concerning Iran. It does the opposite. It reinforces their bad behavior and encourages more of the same.
I vaguely remember a news story a few years ago where President Putin acknowledged provided U.S. intelligence with information about an imminent attack by Iraq using WMDs. I thought that was quite an odd revelation considering that Russia was staunchly against the invasion.
Secret military factions inside Russia could be the explanation. I don’t believe that Putin would be complicit in removing WMDs from Iraq. It’s too outlandish. It is quite possible though that some black market dealing bought Russian logistics to move the WMDs for considerable sum of money. Black ops for hire.
Of course, that is entirely speculative.
The evidence of Syrian, Russian, Lebanese and even French involvement in Iraq’s WMD programs is incontrovertible. Except, of course, to the “reality-based community”. Funny, that.
The existence of Saddam’s WMD’s has been proven beyond any doubt; only the unhinged remain in denial, which is kinda useful as conclusive evidence of BDS.
Hmmmm.
Frankly I’ve always doubted the “there were no WMDs in Iraq” meme because the basis for this idea is complete nonsense. The very idea, the concept, that underlings could actually *LIE* to Saddam and get away with it is laughable.
Why?
Because Saddam trusted nobody. Anybody remember why Saddam had around 20 fully stocked palaces? Why every single one of those palaces had to provide a complete dining arrangement in Saddam were to show up? Because Saddam trusted nobody and noone and would make his dinner and sleeping arrangements entirely at the last moment.
Saddam also had a habit, like most dicatators, of being the most untrusting and suspicious of people closest to him. Those that were in the best positions to lie to Saddam were those most likely to feel his wrath for any reason or even no reason at all.
Saddam also created many different factions within his government for the sole purpose of infighting. To play one group off of another. To have one group turn in members of another group for rewards.
And I’m supposed to believe that Saddam’s underlings lied to him over the course of more than a decade without either having been turned or killed for that lie?
Utter rubbish.
Don’t you know that this story simply can’t compare in importance to Vice President Cheney’s accidental shooting of a friend. /sarcasm_off>
I think that they’re going to have to show me. The narrative is intriguing, but I’d want to see the evidence.
The ancient Masters
did not try to educate the People,
but instead taught them to not-know.
When they think that they know the answers,
People are difficult to guide.
when they know that they don’t know,
People can find their own way.
re: “Just as astonishing as the Russian clean-up operation were efforts by Bush administration appointees, including Defense Department spokesman Laurence DiRita, to smear Shaw and to cover up the intelligence information he brought to light.”
Can you say, “sabotage”?
When do we start arresting these bums and putting them on trial?
I don’t think anything short of a stockpile revealed will change the minds of the press about WMD. Even then I expect more than a few will maintain the given narrative, that Iraq was indeed a land of chocolate rivers and gumdrop trees.
We have had our differences in the past but this article was absolutely brilliant. Thanks very much for writing it. Katrina has come and gone but this danger is central to our country’s existence.
Ed,
I think you nailed it. It seemed to me as well that Saddam always knew what he was doing, Also even if you could of fooled the old man his boys would have found out for sure if people in the Baath party were playing funny with the weapons program.
Ion Mihai Pacepa wrote several articles on the Russian concealment program in Romania and how it matched what was being done in iraq. I can’t find them yet, but will continue looking.
Natesnake,
The feeling that there are uncontrolled factions within Russia seems very plausible to me.
Case in point: The head of the Russian team that supplied the Iranians ran away to Switzerland. The US had him arrested but the Swiss court let him go and then the Russians wanted him arrested!
Don’t know what happened to him but I suspect the Russian government wanted him back in Russia pretty bad, or failing that, dead.
Intriguing, Jeff. And very informative. Thanks for writing it.
I’ve always had nagging doubts about there being no WMDs in Iraq. There’s simply too much evidence that Hussein sought WMDs of all types. The idea that the Russians (either Putin or renegade elements of the Russian military) assisted in the pre-invasion clean-up is simply too simple a bridge between the pre-invasion intelligence and post-invasion reality to ignore.
I look forward to further reports on this subject. Just not from the MSM.
If you do a Google search for “Muslims fly commercial airliners into buildings in New York City. No Muslim outrage” you come up with 631 results, each containing the bulk of the text found in that comment.
Either TG’s been very busy, or he’s not the author of the bulk of that comment. (Neither, as far as I can tell, is Westergaard).
Just sayin’.
Charlie Colorado,
Her you go:
http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20030820-081256-6822r.htm
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=12387
Bingo! Thanks, Paul.
Hmmm.
*shrug* I don’t think it takes a lot of mental gymnastics to come to my conclusion so I’m not patting myself on the back.
The other thing that’s rather riduclous is also the money aspect. Saddam presumably spent boatloads of money on the WMD programs, if they existed. If Saddam didn’t spend the money then it was utterly foolish of him to not comply with the UN resolutions as doing so would have eventually resulted in the raising of the sanctions.
Yet if Saddam did spend the money then where did that money go? If not into WMD research then it had to have been stolen right out from under Saddam’s nose. Which I really don’t believe at all. And for what? Fear of the United Nations? Of the European Union? France?
If you were the person in charge of WMD research and had on the one hand the United Nations and, on the other, a family who would cheerfully rape your daughter and then feed you into an industrial shredder if you complained. Which would you fear more?
It just frankly doesn’t make any sense to me.
The_Real_JeffS, I agree. Jeff went to some effort here and provided a Post second to none.
Excellent!
Ian Wood, You know I am not the author of that comment, except for a few words at the end.
There is no pretense on my part. The original author is obvious. The second sig is of the Military Officer who kindly Emailed it to me from Virginia and the final TG is me.
Do you think the comment should be censored or kept from wider view?
If it is painfully redundant, Jeff could zap it and I would think nothing of it as I have been busy and it was news to me. The summary view that is.
If you are a Jihadist Muslim, I apologize, as no offense was intended. I live on Vancouver Island where Muslims are my neighbours.
They founded logging and milling business here in the 1800s and you can be certain they work hard and have no truck with Jihadists. TG
Well, I for one am shocked that we can’t trust the Russians!
Shocked!
SB: food
eat some