From Jim Pinkerton, writing at Tech Central Station:
Kyoto Treaty RIP. That’s not the headline in any newspaper this morning emerging from the first day of the Clinton Global Initiative, but it could have been—and should have been.
Onstage with former president Bill Clinton at a midtown Manhattan hotel ballroom, British Prime Minister Tony Blair said he was going to speak with “brutal honesty” about Kyoto and global warming, and he did. And Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice had some blunt talk, too.
Blair, a longtime supporter of the Kyoto treaty, further prefaced his remarks by noting, “My thinking has changed in the past three or four years.” So what does he think now? “No country, he declared, “is going to cut its growth.” That is, no country is going to allow the Kyoto treaty, or any other such global-warming treaty, to crimp—some say cripple — its economy.
Looking ahead to future climate-change negotiations, Blair said of such fast-growing countries as India and China, “They’re not going to start negotiating another treaty like Kyoto.” India and China, of course, weren’t covered by Kyoto in the first place, which was one of the fatal flaws in the treaty. But now Blair is acknowledging the obvious: that after the current Kyoto treaty—which the US never acceded to—expires in 2012, there’s not going to be another worldwide deal like it.
So what will happen instead? Blair answered: “What countries will do is work together to develop the science and technology….There is no way that we are going to tackle this problem unless we develop the science and technology to do it.” Bingo! That’s what eco-realists have been saying all along, of course—that the only feasible way to deal with the issue of greenhouse gases and global warming is through technological breakthroughs, not draconian cutbacks.
Blair concluded with a rhetorical question-and-answer: “How do we move forward, post-Kyoto? It can only be done by the major players coming together and pooling their resources, to find their way to come together.”
Interestingly, these words from Blair, addressing an audience of a thousand at the Sheraton just a few blocks north of Times Square, failed to get any pickup in the media. Even The New York Times, published just down the street, ran a story that dwelt on the star power in the room, including King Abdullah of Jordan, Jesse Jackson, and George Stephanopoulos. “Isn’t this awesome?” said one participant, and those words seemed to reflect fully the Times’ take on the event.
For its part The Washington Post offered this bland headline: “Clinton Gathers World Leaders Nonpartisan Conference Focuses on Global Improvement,” making no mention of Blair’s global warming remarks. As for TV coverage, there wasn’t much of that either; on CNN Headline News, Christi Paul said, admiringly, “former President Clinton is still looking to get things done,” noting that Clinton garnered “more than $200 million in pledges” to address world problems.
Ironically, some of those pledges concerned global warming. The 42nd President kicked off his wonky-glitzy extravaganza by announcing that the event would be “climate neutral.” That is, the CGI—or, more precisely, a couple of fatcats who ponied up money to get some onstage face time with Clinton—would “offset” the CO2 produced by this event by “investing in renewable energy projects in Native American lands and in rural Nigerian villages.” But such eco-pious symbolism aside, the real news of the conference so far has come from Blair.
[…] And there was some potentially significant news from Condi Rice, who was also onstage all this time, sitting with Clinton and Blair in an Oprah-like format. Speaking of world energy policy for the future, Rice said, “Nuclear power is going to have to be part of the mix.” Imagine that—nuclear power! That’s been the Bush administration view all along, of course, but the W. folks haven’t gotten very far in resuscitating the industry. Yet if Blair is starting to show realism on Kyoto, he and other leaders around the world will see that nukes have to be part of the energy solution.
Indeed, Rice added, “France generates something like 80 percent of its electricity from nuclear power.” That’s probably the first time in ages that a Bush administration official has had anything positive to say about France. Rice acknowledged “proliferation risks” from nuclear power, but made it a clear that something had to be done. “In the fast-developing world,” she concluded, “we have to find a way to leverage all power [sources].”
For his part, Clinton was his usual self, declaring to Rice, “In general, I agree with you about that”—without ever saying what he was agreeing with. And the 42nd President gave no reaction to Blair’s provocative Kyoto revisionism.
In fact, nobody seems to have reacted to what Blair said. But that’s OK. TCS readers have this significant scoop. And as for the rest of the world, it will soon understand that Blair has effectively pulled the plug on Kyoto.
A major victory in the pushback against global market tampering of the kind the Kyoto protocol has long been trying to disguise as environmental reform.
Maybe ol’ Chimpy ain’t so stupid after all…
(h/t Tom Pechinski)
****
update: More from Ace.
Oh, Chimpy is stupid, all right; it’s Rove that has the blackmail twist on formerly reliable tree-hugger Blair.
Is there anything Karl can’t do?
Cordially…
I am he. He is I.
Climate, shimate…
What about the armadillo?
tw: hope, as in “I hope he treated all those co-eds well down in Louisiana.”
How anyone thought that Kyoto was a serious step without including India and China baffles me sometime.
It’s like proposing a clean air policy for the US but not China, as if the air in Mexico never reaches the US……wait a minute….
preview is my friend- that previous comment should read-
It’s like proposing a clean air policy for the US but not China, as if the air in China never reaches the US……wait a minute….
This shows how hare-brained the Kyoto mass movement was. It was a one-shot, one-off attempt to shut down the industrial base of western nations. It failed because Al Gore wasn’t elected US President in 2000. The US ignored the idiots, and eventually realists in the rest of the world were forced to shake themselves from their dream-like trance and deal with the real world. The fate of the industrialized world hinged on a few dimpled chads in Florida. Crazy world.
“…that dwelt on the star power in the room, including King Abdullah of Jordan, Jesse Jackson, and George Stephanopoulos.”
Never thought I’d see those words and that name together in the same sentence.
It’s the history of civilization, everytime we solve one problem, we create another. So we just keep solving problems because that is what we are good at. It is the natural way for Man to behave. We just need to work on exposing the “environmental movement” as the misanthropic luddites they really are.
This is a very well written and information rich post.
I wrote an interesting comment touching on the energy part, and then on submit, there was a mention of * reserved * name and it was Poof!
So most of what I was going to inform on is at:-
http://Anchorpin.redpin.com
and refers to $3 gasoline … 2nd try 73s
You fools it’s, already too late! I got up this morning at 5 AM and it was 68, at 3 PM the temperature had risen to 80 degrees. At the present rate of global warming, the temperature will be 1268 in 90 hours, with all life having ceased to exist hours before.
Hold on, at 5 PM the temperature had plummeted to 78 degrees. At the now present state of global cooling, the earth will be covered in ice in less than 100 hours.
It doesn’t matter! We’re all doomed!
Oh why, oh why didn’t we listen?
No, true eco-realists say that there is no reliable evidence that global warming is occurring, no evidence that global warming would be a net negative for the world, and no evidence that controlling CO2 emissions would have any significant impact on global warming even if it was occurring and was proved to be harmful.
I’m not saying you would willingly abuse or neglect the armadillo, although certainly I would take seriously the charges of his violation and/or demise at your hands, in the interest of protecting him from the harm that might befall him in an inadequately caring environment… which, is not to say I am leveling any specific charges against the author of this blog, but your silence does beg the question:
WHY DO YOU REFUSE TO HOLD YOURSELF ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE ARMADILLO’S WHEREABOUTS, MR. GOLDSTEIN!
I have heard that we can’t even determine how much net CO2 anybody puts into the atmosphere.
There are those (you know, THEM) that say the US is a net CO2 reduction country. Who the hell knows, until there is some quantative way to meassure.
But…but…global warming killed all of those African Americans!!!
Dubya pulled the plug back in 2001. Although much of the rest of the planet has struggled mightily to put it back in, the good ship Kyoto has been taking on water ever since. Blair just tossed the plug overboard and now it’s gonna sink.
It’s a pretty sorry room that depends on Jesse Jackson and George Stephanopoulos for star power.
Yea – they would rather wait for events like Hurricane Katrina to to the job for them.
Ahwww … maybe he is
TW: game
Wadard —
Writing stupid shit just for the sake of writing stupid shit is rude. And frankly, it smacks of desperation.
Y’know, Clinton’s done a decent job so far of being an Ex-President. He may find his legacy yet.
TW: Basis, as in “I make this positive remark on the basis of Jeff’s post and Clinton’s still-there ability to say something without saying anything, and yet not piss anyone off.”
Mr. Wadard,
That’s right, everyone who opposes Kyoto is looking for some way, any way, to cripple their economy.
One of two things is happening here –
1) You know how silly that sounds, and indeed is,
or
2) You really believe all the horseshit being spread around about climate, and you fear anything you don’t understand, ascribing unknowns to dark forces and conspiracies.
“1” makes you a lying fool, bent on scoring political debating points regardless of how low you have to slither to score them.
“2” makes you the modern day equivalent of our ancestors, sacrificing goats to appease the weather gods, and cowering in your cave in hopes that the monster won’t devour you. (see Luddite reference above).
Either way, everyone who comes into contact with you still thinks you’re an idiot, so why not pull your pants up and do something productive for a change?
TW: audience, having one does funny things to Mr. Wadard.
This shows how hare-brained the Kyoto mass movement was. It was a one-shot, one-off attempt to shut down the industrial base of western nations. It failed because Al Gore wasn’t elected US President in 2000.
It failed because the Senate voted 95-0 to ditch it.
Wadard! Wait! You haven’t given us one of your famous posts with a half-dozen links to various dogmatic socialist rags supplemented with your inane commentary. You know, the ones that make it clear Fidel Castro should be made king of the world and that everything Bush does destroys the planet and kills poor working-class minorities.
Those are just the best! Because if there’s anything Jeff’s audience needs it’s more socialism crammed down our throats. That and pie, of course.
Be patient, he is busy researching how much Fidel has lowered the temperature down there.
Hey, Wadard, I’m waiting for your insight on that other thread. Also, do you think you’ve got timezones down or should we explain them again?
Is it warm in here?
The cost/benefit ratio for Kyoto is looking really bleak.
Wadard: how much do you weigh?
If a dead cat can be turned into 2.5 liters of bio-diesel, perhaps you can be of service to the planet after all.
Just wondering.
Give Wad a chance, he’s got to go off and read a couple of articles from Z Magazine to research his rebuttal. Feel free to take a bathroom break. Oh, and bring me a beer.
Shouldn’t Wadard be bringing us both a beer? Oh shit, he’d probably bring Fosters. That shit tastes like piss in a big can.
Wad’s busy thumbing through Earth First! Journal and The Luddite Monthly to get his talking points, while thinking to himself “Aye myte, I’ll fix those Yanks….”
Look – there is research indicating that global warming is increasing the intensity of hurricanes and since Katrina is estimated to cost between $87 and $200 billion the cost of ingnoring global warming is going to be far greater than moving our economies of non-renewable and fossil fuel dependence. Then there is also the opportunity cost of having not developed viable alternatives post peak-oil. That’s my only point. I don’t think it is fair to be described as shit Jeff.
Gosh you guys are funny. I post 14 words
and get 9 flames. Only the top trolls get those sorts of ratios.
TW: season –
Open season on a fool,
using reason as a tool,
I bury ‘em
‘gan ‘n again
And send them back to skoooool.
Wadard, I’d disagree with you, but Bill from INDC would downright insult my reasoning skills for distrusting SCIENCE ™.
Ok, where do I start? Ah Daniel:
More proof yanks don’t have a capacity for detecting their own irony – see Luddites wreck prining machines so why the fuck would they subscribe to monthly publications?
Totally agree. Well at least you may have one redeeming aspect. There is no outstanding Aussie beer – but there is plenty of drinkable stuff and Fosters had to wander offshore for their market.
More beer requests? What am I, your beer-bitch? I don’t need to research my rebuttle, or even indeed rebutt at all. Firstly as far as researching goes, I am fairly well up to date as I take an ongoing interest in sustainability. Yes that link is my blog, and I know it is crap, I am one with that, it’s just for my own edification. That is only if I had something to rebutt – there has been no claim made to contest – some fool just accused me of believing in arguements for global warming, and I do. No rebuttal needed. The rest of the comments were insults, and I am not dignify those with an answer, unless I think they are good or funny. I deinately don’t mind being insulted, but I don’t want to waste time reading if they are sub-standard.
Wadard: how much do you weigh?
Now that IS a good sledge (ribbing). Listen Terry, it is clear from your comment that you are way older (more mature) than the average age of the commenters here. The gap is so big that if you were to be a source of fuel it would still be called fossil fuel.
Oh that? Sorry – I just caught up – didn’t want to thread jump with my issues, but since you have asked me a few times, fair enough
or you just don’t get out enough. i give you the top twelve most luddite films ever. originally published in the luddite reader. i used to read them online, but apparently they’re now defunct. you have a bit simplistic understanding of what being a luddite entails, but that’s not really surprising.
I don’t have time to go and find it, but I think you asked what do the crusades and the arab and crusader orders have to do with the establishment of the Red Cross? Well, on the side of what we think of as the West, during the time between crusades, the Templiers developed way to protect pilgrimaging civillians in hostile territories – those they did not rule. That was their raison d’etre. The wore fucking big red crosses on their armour so that the forces of the rulers would be able to identify them as the dudes who are protecting the religious tourist that come into their land to spend good money. Same as the Knight of St. John – the hospitaliers – who might have had black crosses – and their job was to help civillian and military wounded, of all sides – Arab and Frank – during those times. The Arabs worked withing this chivaraic tradition and never attacked the Hospitalliers.
Anyway … the Templiers became very powerful over the next 400 years they did not have to listen to the Pope and they ran their own verions of faith. The developed the traditions that have found their way into the Red Cross as well as the west’s first banking system, enterprises, explorations, scientific developemts. So the Pope got the shits and one night, conspiring with the French king, one Friday the 13th night they rounded up and arrested all the Templiers they could in France and Flanders and even Germany and accused 1000’s and 1000’s of herasy and blasphemy and burnt them all at the stake. The last one was the Grand Master Jacques de Molay if you want to wiki it. The rest fled to Germany and England and Scotland and Switzerland and what had been the world’s most powerful Order went underground. Energy does not get destroyed, just transfered into another form of energy.
That was the early 1300’s
Some of the underground energy, called “Alph, the Sacred River” by Colleridge ran down through the middle ages carrying stuff that the church forbade, like science and medical research, astronomy, secular art and liturature, philosophy and humanism etc resurfaced when Freemasonry came out of the closet (but still stayed secretive) post enlightenment, about the 1700’s. About 150 years later a travelling Freemason witnessed the bloody carnage of a battle in the Austro-Franco war, and that was the genesis of the Red Cross:
So that is how I make the linkages, and I remember being told this by my Grandfather, who was very engaged in his Freemasonry.
God – if I think about it, I can blame my grandfather’s ideas for a belief that conspiracies do exist all the time. If I had had a normal Grandpa I could be a normal, Howard-loving, church-going eco munching, gass-guzzling carbohydrate heavy consumer. Instead I’m trolling the Bushies and missing grandpa and his wicked laugh.
My apologies, I thought all Luddites died out after the printing presses won. Glad to see some have survived and persisted. It’s only got worse, hey? Y’know, technology ‘n all. it’s like rediscovering a once thought lost species. Greetings to your leader.
Bloody hell, I AM a Luddite after all.
I’m blaming YOU Grandpa, this is all your fault.
Thanks Maggie, you have brought me and my dead Grandpa closer. We are back to argueing.
Gattaca – of course I have seen it!! Totally enjoyable.
Hello, anyone? I thought this was a 24 hr country? We’re doing movies.
And an idiot as well.
Well, it’s 5:42 EDT. Time to call it a night.
I don’t know what time it is in Oz, but at the very least, Wadyard take a nap.
You’l probably need the rest before you start trolling again with your inane posts.
G’night.
It’s 8:30pm. G’nite.
Don’t worry – my shift finishes soon enough.
Back onto the increased intensity of hurricanes/global warming theory – there is some fresher research coming to light supporting the link.
TW: great! ohh
Thank Gaia for Global Warming it seems to be saving us all from the Ice Age we were told thirty years ago would be killing us all today!
Wadard
You stated in a prior post that you don’t DO American movies…what’s up with the contradiction?
I nominate this for understatement of the year:
And an idiot as well.</blockquote>
Yes, and a silly twit. No description of Wadless is complete without those two words.
Okay, so much for nested blockquotes.
I’m an “Intelligent Design” kind of guy and even, my gosh, a closet Creationist. But then I read some of Watard’s stuff, and the argument for “intelligent” design just goes out the window. But then I ponder, shouldn’t the evolutionary process have caused a “mistake” like Watard to have become extinct long ago?
No, Wadard, what you are is the Left equivalent of an Intelligent Design wacko.
Scientific investigation of a big subject always throws out lots of different, and often contradictory, results. It’s a sign that the subject is, in the words of scientists themselves, “not well understood”. Which is the science-speak translation of “WTF? Damifino”.
So you, and the IDers, decide on a position, then pick stuff out of the stream that supports it, while ignoring anything that doesn’t. It doesn’t give you “support from scientific investigation”. It’s clear evidence that you don’t have any idea what “science” is all about.
All of the so-called evidence regarding Global Warming comes from statistics and computer modeling, based on evidence so skimpy, unreliable, and short-term that you can get almost anything out of it. It’s rather like finding five or six random blobs of color on a ten-meter-square wall and trying to extrapolate a mural from it.
At the beginning of last year I would have said it looked like there was a clear signal that warming was actually occurring. Then it turned out that one of the prime investigators had rigged his analysis; it still isn’t clear whether he did it on purpose or by accident (either is possible). So anything you post that’s dated before fall ‘04 is almost certainly defective.
There is still no evidence that the warming is primarily caused by human activity; it is still extremely unclear whether warming will be good or bad, though the historical record suggests “good” for Europe and Asia, not-so-great for North America; and computer models still don’t include the 500-kilo gorilla, water vapor, which is responsible for roughly eighty percent of the greenhouse effect and is very difficult to model because it may cause warming or cooling depending on many factors, most of them unknown. That last isn’t because the researchers are incompetent or careless. It’s because it’s hard; they originally thought carbon dioxide would be an adequate proxy for the whole effect, so they took a shortcut. It turns out that road doesn’t go anywhere, so they’re all back to trying to do it the hard way, and it’ll be a long time before anything even quasi-definite comes out of that.
Anybody who says the subject of Global Warming is clear is working from ideology, not evidence. Why don’t you go somewhere and scream at Darwinists? There’s just as much “evidence”, and we wouldn’t have to put up with you.
Regards,
Ric
Sorry, I was being lazy. I mean that I don’t watch Hollywood-product, and it is not a hard and fast rule or I would only have girlfriends with hairy armpits. There is plenty of independent American cinema that I have completely enjoyed.
You can’t avoid the Terminator, I did manager to avoid Robocop and the rest of those films on the Luddite list are not Hollywood staple.
But I havn’t seen a film for a long time.
Waddy does seem to excel at avoiding the unpleasant.
Ricky baby – I am a Darwinist and ID’ers are my natural enemy. The guy is a great genius to my mind.
You are being very presumptious about my stance on evolution so maybe you are wrong about global warning too. On my blog I outline the broad debate on climate change and GW and the latest research, which is somewhere where you are not at. You will see that I am not an absolutist, but am rather interested in getting to the bottom of it.
the unpleasant what?
You are shithouse as a scientist and an even worse as a Christian.
Hmmmm.
Hey Jeff.
I’m getting heavy into Flash. If I have the time to make a Flash based multiplayer fighting game, mind if I use that “Kyoto Monkey Fu” schitck?
I was thinking of a prank sort of game where players use fighting styles based on critters and issues promoted by environmentalists.
sm: “europe”. well. that’s appropriate.
I LOVE THE 90s!!!!
Kyoto Treaty = Oil for Food, Part Deux
G’day. Just wanted to drop everyone a line and let you know that Wadard is a homophobe racist in addition to a Kangaroo-fu tough-guy.
Wadard = Racist
Wadard = Fascist
Wadard = Homophobe
Why are you still responding????
Ric,
Great link. Yes I am aware of the broken hockey stick and agree that proceeding from from that premise can be more dangerous. The debate is still very much open at that scientific level. But even your men came up with that conclusion:
That is the position I take on my blog. Read the post about the latest research into GW and hurricane activity. This relies on satelite data only, not hybridising two different measuring conventions, and comes up with the same conclusions as Emmanuel. I would be interested in you comment.
Okay, I’ve had 8 hours of sleep and am ready to do battle again. Where were we?
Oh yeah. Wad had just dipped into his Encyclopedia Britannica and started back up on the Knights Templier[sic] thing again. Wad, if you persist in that meme, please start spelling ‘Templar’ correctly. (Of course, ahem, that may be the way they spell it in OZ. They drink Foster’s. Clearly, these are a desperate people, capable of anything.) In any event, it’s in the wrong thread, isn’t it? The ants have swarmed over that carcass and are several miles down the road already.
I’m not trying to be unkind, but you’d get more of a serious response if you were more, er, serious.
Basically, you come here with a hammer thinking everything you see is a nail. If you’d like a higher level of repartee, you might want to resist crafting wads of tangential material from dubious and biased sources, hijacking the thread in your own direction, trying to impress us with your scant erudition, and admitting that your opinions are as fallible as everyone else’s.
I also recommend strongly that you visit Harry’s Place, an oasis of sanity and heart in an otherwise bleak and blasted Left.
ahem, G’day to you. I built a bridge and moved on. You are welcome to use it. We’re talking global warming and hurricane intensity. Got anything to say on those subjects?
Me: So is the world really getting warmer?
Generic Scientific Dude: We think so, at least we are pretty sure it maybe has for like the past 50 years or so, roughly.
Me: And you think man is causing this?
GSD: It seems likely, hard to say for sure.
Me: If we are, is there anything we can do about it?
GSD: We don’t know, it may be reversible, if it is really happening, or it may be past the point of no return. If we knew what was happening, if anything is, it would be possible maybe to make a determination about something.
Me: Do we know how to make an air conditioner?
GSD: Oh, absolutely.
Me: Cool.
GSD: …
Son, please come home. It’s time to do your paper route.
Is this proof that Aussies over-analyse jokes? Gee, Johnny Wadd, you may want to lighten up Down There. All that seriousness can’t be good for you, mate.
No, we are following the thread on how the Kyoto Protocols were a spectacular waste of time and effort, and how that’s been confirmed by one of the prime supporters of the Kyoto Protocols. Especially since everyone is doing their best to get off the sinking ship that said Protocols have been.
You, on the other hand, are simply trying to demonstrate how wise and learned you are. And succeeding only in looking spectacularly stupid.
The REAL Koyto Killer Has Arrived:
====== NEWS FLASH ======
This thread is just getting warm…
YES! – It’s new… Yes! It’s in Winnipeg Canada.
Normal Gas Engine burns at 35% efficiency.
Gas Engine + H2N-Gen.. Burns at 97% eficiency!
http://www.canada.com/montreal/montrealgazette/news/
http://anchorpin.redpin.com
I’m turning of notify comments. Don’t want my Cable IP to get crash with the email load..
Is this a Kyoto Killer or what? 73s TonyGuitar
Considering that water vapor traps more heat per unit than CO2, and is indeed more abundant on the Earth’s surface than CO2, why don’t global warming enthusiasts go after water vapor? After all, it comes out of car tailpipes, factory smokestacks, cow farts and organic respiration just like CO2, right?
I think it’s because if someone took the world stage and tried to seriously propose a worldwide treaty to control the humidity, he or she would be laughed off of the planet. When we’re talking about something as familiar and ubiquitous as water, the proposterous arrongance of such a suggestion is obvious to everyone.
Yet the eco-puritans supporting Kyoto are proposing exactly that weather control by virtue of reducing by a tiny percentage one of the most abundant naturally occurring substances on Earthâ€â€and with a straight face. It’s incredible to me that so many otherwise intelligent people take this seriously.
:peter
Peter, good point. Well laid out too.
Do you think, that unlike the respected and knowlegable, Wadard, others, namely, Ed, ahem, susn, Baloe and Clintonomics are somewhat befuddled by:-
<i> the Winnipeg Kyoto Killer? <i>
Do I detect a sort of paralysis in that the validity of the new device seems to be immune to all possible technical rebuttal?
Disappointing… sort of. 73s TG
No man, I think that is a very interesting way of tacking the problem; getting hydrogen into the combusion chamber to get the holy grail of 100% fuel efficiency.
Thanks for the link – I tried to upload into my blog but I must have hit delete instead of publish and I am too lazy to go and repost.
I did find the tone of the article a bit breathless though.
Wadard, I accepted that warming was happening quite a while ago. After all, it’s been known for decades that the Sun is a slightly variable star, and warming has been discovered on Mars. (The link is to a copy of NASA’s press release. The Daily Ablution has more links.) It’s interesting that Earth doesn’t seem to be warming as much as Mars is. Earth has substantial amounts of water vapor. Mars does not. Hint?
No, it isn’t Martians. Read your Edgar Rice Burroughs. The Martians use the Eighth and Ninth Rays for energy generation, beyond temporary campfires and such. No greenhouse gases there. No piston-engine SUVs, either. No oil or coal, come to think.
Water vapor is a greenhouse gas. If it condenses it can become clouds, which may either block insolation (lowering temperature) or further trap ground-level heat (which neither raises nor lowers temperature, it just vaporizes the clouds). If it precipitates it may become rain (which decreases albedo and increases heating) or snow (which increases albedo and decreases heating). It’s complicated. Rain can encourage plant growth, which absorbs carbon dioxide and increases albedo. Nobody knows. The last time I heard about a simulation run including what is currently believed about water vapor, the planet promptly went into an ice age so severe Mexico City was covered.
Five years ago I asked a question which nobody has even bothered to address to my knowledge: what was sea level at Dacca, on the Bay of Bengal, in the year 1000? Kyoto apologists tell us that farming in Greenland was a local phenomenon, not world wide—but check up on ancient civilizations, emphasis changes 800 – 1300 AD, the so-called “climactic optimum”. Something was going on all over at about that time.
Warming increases evaporation, putting more water vapor into the atmosphere—which is why the climate scientists originally thought CO2 was a decent proxy for the whole process. But increased humidity may (and very likely will) result in increased precipitation and more cloud cover, which increases albedo, reduces insolation and cuts the warming; if much of it falls as snow, double the reduction. Nobody knows. And nobody has an even halfway decent model for the process. If anybody wrote one, we need at least another generation of computers under Moore’s Law to run it given present funding levels.
The U.S. has a funny custom: we treat treaties seriously. The Kyoto Protocols were so clearly unserious that even the U.S. Senate managed to notice, which is quite a trick when you think about it. It was fairly obvious, just from the rhetoric surround it, that the intent was to cripple the U.S. economy on the pretext of “reducing CO2 in the atmosphere”. Other countries fell into three groups: like Germany, which expected to meet the goals because of ongoing unrelated efforts; like New Zealand, intending to comply without any ability to check just what that would imply; or like France, intending to sign the thing and lie like a rug.
Bill Clinton falls into category 3. He signed the thing, knowing full well that the President’s signature on a treaty ain’t worth a set of water wings in a tsunami, and with full knowledge that the Senate wouldn’t approve. He then basked in the resulting adulation. But then along came Senate Resolution no. 98—yes, the low number tells you how unusual this sort of thing is:
It doesn’t say they won’t sign a Kyoto-like agreement. It says they won’t sign one unless it treats all parties pretty much the same, and the treatment isn’t rigged to destroy the U.S. economy. Even from a strictly scientific standpoint that makes sense—if you’re going to attack a problem by going after 20% or less of the cause, actually addressing only a quarter of that while giving the rest a free hand doesn’t sound very sensible. It’s worse than that. Worst case, anthropogenic CO2 amounts to ten percent of the total. So burying the entire U.S. under a CO2-proof layer would eliminate a quarter of two percent, or half of one percent, of the total greenhouse gas—while China and India were increasing their emissions by leaps and bounds. As we used to say in the Navy, f* that for a game of soldiers.
And as group 1 discovers that it ain’t that easy and joins group 3, and as group 2 thrashes about despairingly for a solution, I rejoice that “Bush killed Kyoto” despite the fact that it’s a damnable, palpable lie. The U.S. Senate killed the Kyoto Protocols dead, dead, dead without a single dissenting vote. All Bush did was perform the last rites.
Regards,
Ric
Well Ric,
I followed that carefully. The complete way you filled out the picture leaves me better informed. Group 3 fits polititians best, don’t you think? All of the glory, none of the tiresome details. Clinton may be a bit left, but he’s sharp. Not that I take sides.
I just want to see Whistle Blower Protection law beefed up in Canada, the USA and it’s even under review to prevent any future Oil For Food Billions debacles, in the UN.
Interesting note to me from the Conservatives at:- http:BendGovt.blog.com
If more people knew what a tax waste preventer this law is, there would be a loud scream for it.
Alas, it’s buried in the general smokescreen that is the MSM.
Anyway your opinion on the Winnipeg Hydrogen fuel feeder, see news flash in this thread,[size of a cd player], would be welcome.
Also, I know just looking at Whistle Blower Law will make you a convert. Everyone who learns it’s worth backs it. 73s TG
Two problems with hydrogen: 1) producing it [nuke power is most promising]; 2) storing/transmitting it for use. Until we have both of those under control it’s not much of an answer.
tw: better, as in “you better get your ducks in a row before you pump a switch to hydrogen power.”
I wrote a long post on hydrogen power and CAFE standards a few years back, but I can’t find it in my archives search. Megan McCardle excerpted a good deal of it here, though.
JorgXMcKie, Those are correctly the two most important weakneses with hydrogen.
You don’t think I would bother to make the blatant + News Flash + post if those faults were not solved, do you?
Admittedly, it’s not a direct link above, but it is easy to read the story and your comment suggests you did not see it.
Don’t blame you though. I may have made the same comment you did, myself.
Ya gotta see it to believe it!
It’s like a large CD player, sits under the hood and is charged with powdered chemistry that makes hydrogen on the fly.
1] Production = solved.
2] Storage = not required
Any further questions? 73’s TG
Copyright stops me from posting it to :-
http://Anchorpin.Redpin.com
I can’t follow your links to find the articles. Still, IMHO….well, not really.
All energy production comes down to an energy differential being harnessed in some fashion. That differential is usually measured as a potential from “higher to lower”. The higher potential has more potential energy. The lower potential is where the energy is converted from one form to another.
For example, hydroelectic power comes water pouring over the blades of a turbine, which rotates magnets inside a copper coil, which in turn creates electricity. The water flows from a higher point in the local geography, such as run off from the melting of snow packs in the mountains….but the water got there because it fell there as snow. How did the water get into the atmosphere? By evaporation….from the sun, a natural nuclear power plant which uses hydrogen in a fusion process. Where does the hydrogen come from? Is something creating that? Not so far as we know in our understanding of entropy.
So no energy is created. None. What you describe is simply another way to store energy, a sort of chemical battery.
Conventional wisdom says that hydrogen production comes from cracking the water molecue, usually by electrolysis. This is energy intensive, especially in the volumes that we would need to replace petroleum.
I expect that the *real* problem with hydrogen power is simply finding the available energy sources necessary to produce an adequate supply of hydrogen. This concept also entails building an entire new infrastructure and industry to support hydrogen power. You need cars to burn the hydrogen, plants to produce it, and the wherewithall in between to get supplies to the consumer.
Which brings me back to your statement:
Burning pure hydrogen (i.e., cracked from water) is a simple process. But if you’re using a process that cracks the hydrogen on the spot, you still have exactly the same problem as before: You are converting energy from one form into another. The problem is that the “powdered chemisty” merely replaces the hydrogen production system I mention above. That “powdered chemistry” is the higher potential energy….and it has to be developed into a viable commercial utility (production, transport, sales, use, etc).
I also suspect that there is a loss of efficiency, in terms of potential energy, because the hydrogren production is on a micro level, and not mass produced. It’s like deciding on making beer in your basement, or just buying it by the case at the store.
Without seeing the article, this wonder car sounds like an old style acetylene generator. Add water to carbide, and capture the resulting gas. Or just burn it for light, as the old miners used to do with carbide lamps.
Any new or refined technology has to be economically feasible. The Stanley Steamer had the potential to be a viable means of transportation, but it lost out to the internal combustion engine because speed was more important to the public than efficiency. It
I’m not saying this car is impractical, I’m saying that it may not be economically feasible, which is exactly the same problem as the Kyoto Protocols, although for different reasons. Everyone shouted that it was a good idea…..except for the curmudegons in the corner, pointing out reality. And reality won out, in the end.
TonyGuitar,
I’m an old fart.
Once upon a time there was the “Fish Carburetor”, allegedly invented by a man called Jerome Fish. (His first name varies in other variants of the story.) It was supposed to use catalysis to split gasoline into more-easily burnable fractions, thereby giving a ‘38 Ford the ability to get 200 miles per gallon. As a bonus, if the gas was mixed with water the carburetor would “split out” the hydrogen and give the same mileage up to, IIRC, a fifty-fifty mix.
In other words, I’m watching with interest but am extremely skeptical. The reason hydrogen burns so well in the first place is that water molecules contain much less energy than hydrogen and oxygen molecules taken separately. The energy to split the hydrogen and oxygen apart has to come from somewhere, and I don’t believe in magic or in mysterious and undetectable sources of energy. Unless and until promoters of such devices can and do tell me where the energy comes from they’re just perpetual-motion-machine nuts, cold fusionists, and/or Dean Drive enthusiasts. And when they do tell me—well, the only place that energy can come from is the vehicle’s fuel supply.
Efficiency is a separate issue, of course. It’s barely possible that injecting hydrogen into the incoming fuel/air mixture makes the reaction more efficient. The question then becomes whether or not the increased efficiency is enough to pay for the hydrogen-splitting and the extra complexity of the system. Most of the energy content of gasoline comes from the hydrogen anyway. Perhaps some treatment of the fuel-air charge could accomplish the same thing without the hydrogen generator?
I used to be a hydrogen enthusiast. Then I started learning some real stuff. There will never be a major hydrogen infrastructure similar to that for natural gas and liquid fuels, because there’s no such thing as a “tank” or a “pipe” for hydrogen, just filters with greater or lesser porosity. The molecules are just too damn small to keep inside. As a special bonus, some of the hydrogen molecules attach to the container’s materials and turn them into badly-fired ceramics that can be shattered by a flea landing wrong. As a Texan I’m quite familiar with pipeline breaks. On that scale? No, thank you!
Regards,
Ric
JeffS..[Not the imposter],
Hey, you have correctly painted in most of the picture of what surrounds this question.
I just love it when I can answer a question so simply and directly as this one that you pose.
The unit is connected to the vehicle’s electrical supply.
Ric, From one old fart to another… well I’m not too sure about that either. While I am just over 60, I still feel like a kid of 35 and I am still proudly quite immature. It’s just embarrasing when it shows and I can’t see it.
You know, I can only evaluate this from the story, it’s details, the excellent reputation of the Montreal Gazette. [I was brought up in Montreal], and the 7 point something Million dollars invested.
I want to see this truely debunked before I change from plus to minus.
Guess this must be upsetting for Ballard eh? You know them?.. THE Hydrogen experts.
73s TG
The nuclear power industry has been VERY busy the last three or four years – you just haven’t seen the results yet.
The Energy Bill just passed will allow the public announcements to be made, probably within the next 6 months. Expect 8 to 10 new reactors to be named (four or five 2-unit plants) – it takes time to get the proposals and due dilegence done.
The Bill also authorized a prototype hydrogen production reactor to be built in Idaho, on-line maybe 2020.
Waddo:
Thus exposing your level of education.
It is physically impossible to get 100% efficiency. To toss the idea out, even off-handed, reveals you to be an idiot.
Tony:
Where’s the energy to make the “powdered chemistry” come from?
From the vehicle’s power supply, but the question was answered earlier.
When I was a kid, I usd to throw *idiot* around but it always ended up sticking on me, so using higher than average analytical skills, I promptly quit doing that. It still sticks sometimes, but not as often, 73s TG
Two points for you, Tony….
1. What imposter?
2. You clearly didn’t understand what Ric and I pointed out. Hint: where does the vehicle’s electrical supply come from? A bunch of monkeys rubbing amber against silk?
The other guy, you are the REAL JeffS are you not?
Sorry About that JeffS, Sometimes I run on full auto. Good thing I’m no a Pilot eh?
The link is so new I can sometimes rename it.
Try;- http://anchorpin.redpin.com
73s TG